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Messages - Zan

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426
X / Re: No Love for x?
« on: November 06, 2010, 06:20:29 PM »
I believe that if Zero became the lead, then both the name and character would be different from X's, and closer to the Zero that we know; they just can't use the X's name and character for a design such as Zero.

427
News and Announcements / Re: Keiji Inafune leaves Capcom (UPDATE)
« on: November 06, 2010, 05:41:59 PM »
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At what point did we imply that Yoshikawa shares the same objections we do to his own work?  You're stating the obvious.

Let me do the same: We believe he was wrong.

You guys are the ones citing "modeling ease" as the sole reason for the changing, backing your disgust of it. I'm telling you that if they did not see aesthetic value in the redesign, it would have never happened in the first place; no matter what technical advantage it offered.

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Height and width are two different things (see X3's character-change screen).

I'm specifically referring to how wide it is at front view. Compare:
http://mmxz.zophar.net/megamanxz/megamanxtreme2/mmx2salessheet.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t109/jacfalcon/Anime%20Stuff/megamanxdayofsigma-ZeroX.jpg

For the sleeker X1 design, compared to the powerhouse X2+ design, it should not be that wide.

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But NOT making them the same height. that just makes them look retarded.

They're not exactly at the same height:
http://img.youtube.com/vi/G_zYsxFOwIM/0.jpg

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Its all about "oh its  pretty complicated, so lets make the horns the same height so its easier to model"

Strange, from what you quoted, they say the leveled horns would be more difficult to model; the very opposite.

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News and Announcements / Re: Keiji Inafune leaves Capcom (UPDATE)
« on: November 06, 2010, 01:19:42 PM »
The very fact that they chose the "simpler and compact" version for the art as well simply means that they did not consider that design inferior to the original. And if it works well, they would want to be consistent about it.

I mean, I think his MHX helmet looks pretty damn cool, moreso than his original. The original just got way too wide in front view. So why wouldn't want to go with the new one for simple aesthetic reasons as well?

Furthermore, it might come as a surprise to some, but the original helmet is actually easier to sprite than the new helmet; sprites don't like being too compact.

429
News and Announcements / Re: Keiji Inafune leaves Capcom (UPDATE)
« on: November 05, 2010, 06:46:31 PM »
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God damn- couldnt resist, but it's true XDThough the helmet thing bothers me almost more because it was not born out of some artistic preference or redesign like X8, but simply because it would be easier to model? Really? THATS the reason? Its  VERY, well, pardon my saying so, stupid.
(I aint makin' it up folks, check the concept art for MHX Zero in Complete works. It shows Zero 1's head with his helmet proper, and has notes detailing how if it's design for the game is streamlined more, it would allow them to use less polygons on the model, which also shows laziness on their part. ANd lets face it, MHX had pretty bad models for a PSP game. especially one that isnt exactly big as opposed to say, Monster hunter, which ive seen mentioned. or even Powered up.)

You're making a big fuss over nothing.

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MHX also butchered Zero's theme. Its almost as if they were trying to make it sound like the Zero series version.

I'm much more concerned with the exclusion of the ending credits.


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X1 Zero's sprite had no booblights. I dont recall them removing them from his design because of it.

And they could have easily added them to his sprite.

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Its not uncommon for the in game sprites or models to not fully match certain details in artwork.

We've long passed the time when this was an acceptable practice. Square ran it into the ground with their SNES Final Fantasy games.

Furthermore, it is not uncommon for a REMAKE to change a design. It does not overwrite the existence of the original; if you so please, just imagine Zero as he's always been.

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News and Announcements / Re: Keiji Inafune leaves Capcom (UPDATE)
« on: November 03, 2010, 07:54:51 PM »
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We grew up with classics like Mega Man 2 and Mega Man X.

They've been making games lately like Mega Man ZX and Starforce.

I swear, the next person that talks down on ZX will get the uppercut from a magical talking fish. I'm seriously growing tired of people being beyond superficial and unable to see ZX for what it truly is; a series equal to, if not greater than the one that precedes it.

431
X / Re: No Love for x?
« on: October 29, 2010, 10:18:41 PM »
I know Capcom isn't know for their consistency but making a game in between X6 and X7 will cause a ton of plotholes. I could see threads all over the place with complaints.

A title between X6 and X7 could work perfectly. However, it requires a lot of care to comfortably transition into X7's story. As it is, the disconnect between the two can only be justified by the distance to X7. Another game would close the gap, and thus have to smoothen it.

432
X / Re: Timeline of X
« on: October 29, 2010, 10:15:15 PM »
It should, definitely. Though before I do that, I'd like to have a clearer idea of what to do with Rockman Online as well. They're actually giving what seems to be accurate information about the main series timeline, which demands heavy discussion on its validity.

433
News and Announcements / Re: Keiji Inafune leaves Capcom
« on: October 29, 2010, 09:24:30 PM »
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Honestly, I wouldn't be so worried. As long as the likes of Inti Creates is still around, there will always be at least ONE main venue of how to get some decent Rockman experiences. Plus, as has been said a couple of times over this topic, until relatively recently (MM9), Inafune hadn't been a part of the day to day proceedings of Rockman in some years. And while we did get a few questionable games during that time, we still did get a number of decent, if not some of the best Rockman games ever made without too much in the way of his input at all (re: Zero series).

I distinctly recall Inafune being listed in ZERO/ZX as well as EXE/SSR credits as either producer or executive producer.

434
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I thought most MMX fans saw "going Maverick/going Irregular" the same way and just used whichever term they preferred?

Also thought interpretation of similar terms was the least of anyone's MMX-fan-related problems. :/

We're talking about whether or not localization can muddle the correct interpretation and intended meaning of a concept by changing the exact word used. Cited were Decoy and Carbon. Irregular and Maverick, and so on.

When I wrote about the subtle distinction between Irregular and Maverick, it was specifically raised as an example in in X8-centric discussion. Within the context of X8, the meaning of the label is of vital importance to our understanding.

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As far as the label Irregular or Maverick goes, I don't think it really ever applied solely to those who malfunction or are infected. Take Repliforce for example.

It is not solely applied to those malfunctioning or infected, but its definition does mean such. That is why, when the Repliforce were branded as Irregulars, they hated it; they didn't want to be considered Irregulars. Not because of the consequence, as they were already at war; they hated it because the very label hurts their pride. They do not want to be considered as mere malfunctions.

435
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I must disagree.  While you could potentially argue against Cyber Mission/Soul Eraser armors as Light tweaking the old parts (although I do not condone defining an armor by appearance rather than ability), Alia's recreation in X5 is by definition a separate piece of work from the original.  Her armor is a lie.

That would only be a problem if the X6 version of the X5 Armor would have been the Fifth Armor. But as is, Alia's recreation lends its name from the armor it is based on, not from the number it itself is. As such, neither XC, nor XS, are counted as separate armors to this number; whether the recreation itself does is anyone's guess.

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In all fairness, Vile's presence lends a lot of credit to that.  And then of course there is Sigma, since virus or no virus he remains the cause of it all.  One way or the other, the New Gens are bragging about something that first-generation Reploids did.  They simply have a higher occurance of it.

From the viewpoint of the fans at that time, Vile from the very beginning was said to have a defect in the electronic brain. Likewise to Sigma turning evil by the Sigma Virus. Neither Vile, nor Sigma should have attributed to the widespread belief that all Reploids can become Maverick by their own accord. Somewhere along the line, the fan perception changed the original definition to one more revolving around free will, while it should be all about the defects. To me, the term  "Irregular" captures that part of the meaning much more than "Maverick" does, and I can't imagine that such a change did not influence our perception of these concepts, irregardless of the meaning defined in the actual story being the same.

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First of all, the fact that any Reploid, ever, has been deliberately created as an Irregular makes that statement outright false.  There are organized, self-aware Irregulars/Mavericks and there are random, incoherent Irregulars/Mavericks.  The terms MUST encompass both scenarios, not one or the other.

It should be entirely possible to create Reploids with defects. And even if they aren't defected, they are grouped among them because of affiliation. That is still not free will; that is being forced inside of the boundaries of the human government's favorite anti-Reploid label. A label the New Generation opposed with the very statement that they cannot become "irregulars" as they have absolute viral immunity.

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by using the word "can't" and presenting your point as an absolute.  By stating that it is not physically possible for one to choose to be Irregular (this incidentally makes Weil's taunting Zero in Z4 meaningless), one simply echoes the same debate that exists about humanity.  The sentient being is seen as inherently good unless "flawed", by blueprint or by experience, resulting in evil.

I said "technically". Whether one can become an irregular by choice is even disagreed upon among the New Generation. The majority vote is that they are not irregulars, even if they choose to rebel consciously. It is only Lumine and Sigma that used the Hunters' own terminology (in simplification mind you) and spoke of becoming an irregular of one's own accord. That is, accepting the label you've been given for your actions. However, even if you willingly accept the label, that still does not mean you can become "the definition" by choice. To become the definition, the only option is to choose to lose your sense of self by committing mental suicide through self-infection with the Sigma Virus, or damaging the thought circuit of your own accord.

Only in the time of Neo Arcadia, when the definition of Irregular has truly changed, does turning into an irregular by choice become a much more easily achieved possibility.

436
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not to mention it makes somewhat more sense in terms of etymology than the original term (the "4th Armor" is actually the 5th of the main-series, and 7th including side-games).

The name was given because the recreation was based on the fourth armor X acquired. It does not make more sense to call it Force. Both itself and the two from the sidegames are not considered full fletched new armors.

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Alright, here's what I don't get: When did this happen?  When did the fanbase allege that Mavericks are automatically free-willed?  The Sigma Virus has been in the in-game spotlight ever since X3.

This is my main issue with your argument: You're taking the (exceedingly loose) literal implications of the term itself as overriding the abundantly clear context established within the games, both original and localized versions.  I have not seen this approach as being NEARLY as typical of the fanbase as you suggest.  Never have I seen the MegaMan fan who did not believe that Maverick behavior resulted from technical flaws such as viral infection; quite the opposite, I recall more than a few who outright refused to accept X8's statement that Sigma went Maverick of his own accord.

When the entirety of the fanbase cried out over Lumine's words making no sense, reasoning that New Gens are nothing special for being able to go Maverick without the need for a virus, by their own will, because Reploids from the very beginning were created to have free will and thus could always go Maverick of their own accord.

Sigma's matter is a wholly separate outcry of that same time period, because at that time the idea that someone who was already infected could still be sane and have a will of its own, was not widespread.

See, the entire fanbase knows that Mavericks can be caused by glitches and the virus, but what is forgotten is that you can't technically be a Maverick by free will, because the definition is irregularity; to be a defect. Even among the New Gens this belief is held; they can not become irregulars, and Lumine only spoke of becoming Maverick by choice as an oversimplification using the same terms as the Hunters.

437
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I thought names had a factor in sales?

The effect of naming on sales cannot be proven. Especially since it was the quality of Rockmegaman2 that skyrocketed the series to popularity.


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You're arguing the history of the terms, but their actual definitions and timeframes are unaltered. 

So I suppose by 21XX, the new word for Fourth is Force?

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Cain's coining of that term originates in the U.S. (Cain's journal), later adopted by Japan with altered dates.  As such, "Maverick" is actually the original term in that context.  That actually serves to damage your point more than it does help it.

Touché. Nice call. Albeit, that just shows how the fanbase misconstrued a term simply because of real life etymology and definition. Making it deviate from what is meant to be. I just don't think Irregular quite carries the same implication as Maverick does, as with Decoy and Carbon. If anything, using the phrase Decoy sounds more antagonistic than using the phrase Carbon.

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It's not that surprising as rather frequently the cause of Maverick behavior, or Irregularity, is unclear; even in Command Mission which is chronologically the latest entry of the X-series.  The context of the term was never as misleading as you're presenting.  In fact, quite the opposite, Maverick behavior against one's free will is frequently considered both by fans and in-game characters alike to be the norm.  Recall, if you will, that a great deal of X8's plot in addition to fan-based debates thereof center around that fact.

Somehow due to the nature of the term "Maverick", the fanbase had created the assumption that since Reploids by their creation are capable of free will they are thus able to become Maverick. Instead, with irregularity, the plotline itself carries the exact inverse assumption in that no Repliroid can become an irregular by choice.

438
X / Re: German X1 manual?
« on: October 24, 2010, 06:00:33 PM »
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But there are in the IHX manual, of which I don't have a scanned version.

But what does the German MHX say about Zero?

439
You buy games for the gameplay, not the name.

And most of the story of NES games is always in the manual.

440
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In defense of that, the name pun wouldn't make any sense until MM3 at best (and that's assuming you paid attention to the end credits).

The pun would have made sense if the original manual was properly translated, though.

441
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I think the Japanese side of things has its own fair share of weird terminology, so it doesn't really bother me either way.

What does bug me is the constant arguing of "CoA is stupid, everything should use the Japanese names because they aren't stupid."

Perhaps if I want to use the Japanese names for everything, I'll move to Japan and start speaking Japanese instead.

Funny, seems to me like you're the only one denying terms on a regional basis. What I'm talking about is the original term with the original meaning. Whatever region a story was conceptualized in has little to no bearing to that.
 
Furthermore, nobody mentioned the Japanese language. The terms we're talking about are "irregular" and "decoy". These are terms that were written in the English language from the very beginning! It's not as if any of us complained about the translation of such terms as shukuseikan, shiseikan, shimobe and kobun.

See, if you wrote a story, would you like it if all the terms used were butchered beyond recognition in the process of translation, despite all these terms already being in the same language your story is being translated to? Rockman was changed to Mega Man because one man decided he hated the name and wanted something cooler, nothing more, nothing less. Those kind of changes are just pointless and disrespectful to the original vision.

442
Not at all, when Cain coined the term, there were preciously few irregulars; those infected by the virus that were believed to have faults in their electronic brain. They weren't an enemy faction until Sigma rebelled. Prior to that they were defects, flawed Repliroids. In that regard, aberrants is a much nicer localization of irregular.

Maverick is simply someone that things differently from the norm, it does not implicate defects, it implicates free will; irregular does not. Hence everyone's surprises at "Irregular by one's own accord" becoming "Maverick of one's free will."

443
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It is what it is.  The localization is consistent across all entries into Legends (both L1 and L2), so it falls into the same category as any other name change.

Consistency is not their forte.
Maverick suddenly became Aberrant Units, Elysium suddenly became Haven, Rock became MegaMan became Mega.

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"Maverick" and "Irregular" ARE synonymous.

While both non-conformist, I don't think that's true at all. Allow me to quote my own recent posts from X9.com on this very subject:

The term "irregularity" with "irregular" carries a strong implication which "Maverick behavior" with "Maverick" lacks. It is not Maverick behavior that is defined by being Maverick, it is being an irregular that is defined by irregularity; the exact inverse.

Viruses, glitches in the electronic brain and so on, they cause robots to start behaving irregularly. Making them unable to return to normal, to the way they were built. The term was coined as irregularity because it is a condition, a mental illness; it does not describe an enemy faction like Maverick (with a capital M!) does. The mental condition is more important than the fact than an enemy faction arose from those having the condition.


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If I am ever to do more Ace Attorney-to-MegaMan edits, I will probably be trying to include other characters.

A sad Iris sad, she wants to live, so make her move!

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NxC is about as canon as Super Smash Bros.

Still highly valuable once you actually exclude any discrepancies that exist the sake of actually making a crossover possible. NxC's holds great insight about other DASH elements such as the Reavered, Eden, Rockman Juno and irregulars. We should be fine until we start considering real humans from another fictional universe as Decoys just because Juno said so.

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However, we must ask, does the name in DASH refer to their purpose, or to merely their form?

Since we cannot answer that question, we should not be treating Carbon as a synonym to answer it for us. The terms after all very much carry a different impression. As with Maverick, aberrant units and irregulars, both subtle and unsubtle parts of its meaning are lost in localization. For terms that were already written in plain English, it's a change that should have never been made.

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"Beta"

That term is even more questionable for no comparable term exists. Both the Master and his system call them Decoys. So where did Carbons and Betas come from?

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Both, actually, but I don't have a sprite of Iris slamming her desk.



Why have you not made it yet?

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X / Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
« on: October 22, 2010, 11:57:18 PM »
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That is an exceptionally selective bit of logic which could *EASILY* be turned around.  You claim forgoing numbered sequels justifies forsaking the protagonists so long as it otherwise retains series staples.  MegaMan X Command Mission did the complete opposite.

I don't mind if you turn it around, because we do not fault XCM for being a different genre. So why fault Advent for changing its protagonists?

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Irrelevant, it is still the ZX series.

The setting of Command Mission is still RockmanX, the setting of Advent is still RockmanZX. Despite genre and protagonist differences. Why must Capcom avoid marketing the ZX name with Advent when it's so obviously part of that series in both setting and gameplay? If anything, the one time they chose not to carry the series name with a new protagonist, they really should have for marketing reasons.

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ZX Advent is not a "short deviation".  It is literally half the series at this point, as it has been for the last 3 years.  Your entire argument is based on the premise that Advent is a side game, but that distinction cannot be made when the series has no numbered sequels to distinguish Advent from in the first place.  Your position is based solely on a hypothetical scenario.

ZXA had no choice but to devote the entire game to the new protagonists for the sake of both plotline and gameplay. That no sequel as of yet exists is no fault of ZXA. With the continuation of the series' story having been conceptualized and revealed to us, Advent is but one step in a greater plan; a plan we cannot begin to grasp. Saying that ZXA is half the series is like saying the DASH series ended with a cliffhanger that will never be resolved. You should fault neither until the series is truly over; time will show if this deviation was truly necessary. We're getting DASH3, so anything is possible nowadays, even ZX2, 3 or whatever.

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And if Axl and Zero appear more interesting it's because they have more of a story to tell.  Even in those X-series games which feature no other playable characters, we don't really learn much about X.  Hell, it'd be fairly easy to argue that we've received greater insight into X's character from those games which featured multiple player characters.

It is not that X does not have more of a story to tell, it is simply that they chose no to tell it. Both Irregular Hunter X and Rockman Zero confirm this. Shifting the focus to Axl and Zero whilst shafting X was their conscious choice.

Not that that is necessarily bad, I don't even fault X7 for it, considering that it was needed for the plot. But marketing as a direct sequel to X6 was just bad; they really should have been more open and clear about these kind of deviations.

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There is no certainty that the term Decoy is meant to be taken that literally.



<Leilei> Decoy?  Is that some kind of jargon?
<Regina> If the meaning is literal, a Decoy is a "decoy".
<Fongling> This planet... decoys on the Earth?  I don't understand.
<Rock> The Decoys... are the humans.

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Blackhook, I was hoping to come up with a question as I objected.  I failed to do so.


With that reference, you are supposed to slam your desk, not object.

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A Decoy is a decoy, a Carbon is not a decoy. The meaning of the term is lost entirely.

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that is why I stated the Carbons as such and not 'Humans'.

Not Humans, not Carbons, not Betas. They're "Decoys", and I can't stress that enough.

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X / Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
« on: October 22, 2010, 07:26:28 PM »
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My point: I do not consider one A-Trans among 12 others to be adequate purpose.

During Advent, Vent/Aile are still MegaMan Model ZX.  And as I already stated earlier, I am aware that any other Chosen One *COULD* assume that title, but the fact remains that nobody else actually did.

X *could* jump onto the field in the beginning of X7.  He *didn't*.  The issue is what is, not what may be.

Except ZXA is still not a numbered title. It is simply another game in the series that that continues the story. This is a crucial point; if not numbered, the game's title does not carry all the expectations of its predecessor and thus can be solely in reference to which "series" it falls under, and not to the protagonist the series is named after.

From what I can see, by your logic, you can't make someone else the protagonist of a single arc just because someone else's name is in the title. This is simply not true. A short deviation is entirely justifiable as long as the actual main character returns to the spotlight when the arc is over.

ZXA to me, is a set up game, just like Rockman Zero 2 was. If Rockman Model ZX returns as the main protagonist in ZX2, then what's the problem? The titular gameplay was never removed and the story has greatly benefited from taking a less obvious course.

All in all, I'd much prefer ZXA's change of protagonist over the X-series'; they were open about the change, they never told us otherwise. Meanwhile the X-series stealthily tried to sneak in both Axl and Zero, whilst still keeping up the charade that X was supposed to be the main character.

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X / Re: Why does everyone hate Mega Man X6?
« on: October 21, 2010, 11:45:18 PM »
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The second game is not "Rockman Advent", it is "Rockman ZX Advent".  Whether or not the game is titled "ZX 2" is irrelevant; no matter what you call it, it is the second game of the ZX series.  And it was always advertised as that.

To me, not being named "2", but instead "Advent" for such a deviation is the best option. It's much less of outrage than having to unlock the titular character in a game numbered "7". Furthermore, the choice of a game's main character should not be mandated by the series' title; if done in good taste, anybody could be a main character.

Overall, I feel ZX is entirely free to take on any number of characters that are not Vent/Aile Aile as the main. As long as there is a purpose to the "ZX" name in the end. After all, there's after all no telling where the series will take us, and what significance the term "ZX" will have in the end. We already established that livemetals are not limited to a single chosen one, and we already separated Model Z from Model X. Who will become Rockman ZX at the end of the series is anyone's guess.

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