Messages

1601

Rockman Series / Re: Writer question.

« on: April 23, 2009, 08:29:02 PM »

I know.

Now can we move onto classic series writing for the next 3 pages? >.>

1602

Rockman Series / Re: Writer question.

« on: April 23, 2009, 08:27:01 PM »

Point still stands.

1603

Rockman Series / Re: Writer question.

« on: April 23, 2009, 08:22:46 PM »

You should have read the manual of my beloved japanese MegaMan. But you didn't, raise the pitchforks.

1604

Rockman Series / Re: Writer question.

« on: April 23, 2009, 08:18:24 PM »

And you're only tripping over it for a decade thanks to lousy localizations. Take up the pitchforks and protest to Capcom of America.

1605

Rockman Series / Re: Writer question.

« on: April 23, 2009, 08:02:23 PM »

So you can't admit it's badly written.

I can admit it's badly written from an unrealistic expectations point of view. I think it's written quite well being a '93 action game that comes packaged with a manual. If you want to jump 3 generations ahead, go play IHX.

1606

Rockman Series / Re: Writer question.

« on: April 23, 2009, 07:37:25 PM »

The X1 intro is not being incompetent, it's deliberately dumbing down the plot presented in the game because apparently the concept is too confusing and distracting for casual action gamers who never read manuals.

RockmanX1 is an experimental game in the matter of story telling, why go overboard on the first? As no previous game contained quite as much story, dumbing the game itself down compared to the additional sources is a valid choice. Remember, none of the previous games ever established such a thing as free will for classic robots. Only the manuals do so. So why is it not valid for X to keep consistency and tell a great deal of the complicated parts outside of the gameplay? It's not Capcom of Japan's fault that you can't speak japanese and didn't buy the japanese original. They expected interested people to read the story segments of the manual. They never expected nor wanted some american translators to go rewriting their manual. They also didn't want translators rewriting their games, but they still did. What could they have done about it?

Man.. with all you moaning about the vagueness of the game, I guess you'd love to know who wrote X1.

Cause really, the exact same person that wrote X1 has recently taken X1, took note of the inadequacies of its presentation as a result of the times and upgraded it to elaborate on exactly what is written in the manuals. Irregular Hunter X effectively is X1 with X1's manuals and sourcebooks integrated into it. So, they set it right, and it's STILL wrong?

it's X's ability to worry without bias that makes him unique. Moreover, the game says something different!

X's ability of worrying was always defined as him worrying deeply about other's well being, which was always said to have no bias, he cares for the enemy as well as his close friends. X was always said to have more compassion than others. Just wording it differently doesn't make it a new revelation.

I can certainly judge the story for what it isn't.  Moreover, X7 can certainly ruin X6's plot by not continuing it.  It's a foreseeable situation.  Moreover, you have no idea when X7 was given the green light.  Considering it's in 3D and on a totally different engine, naturally it'd take longer.

They could foresee someone as Kitabayashi becoming part of the series and forcing his dear child on us all? Those are decisions that none of X6's team could have anticipated. And even so, do you really think any of X6's team members would have allowed it if the new storyline stepped all over theirs? Surely there are some from that time still working on the series, but they are people, unlike you and I, who have been informed of Kitabayashi's plan with the series. That plan is going somewhere we can't yet fathom. The answers to every mystery in the series could be right around the corner. Stop judging something that is obviously incomplete, you don't judge a whole book from its first page. Sit back and wait for new releases until one day the series is finally closed off officially. X9 doesn't need to answer it, X10 doesn't either, as long as the really final this time final game does.

1607

Rockman Series / Re: Writer question.

« on: April 23, 2009, 05:42:57 PM »

forgets Zero, then conveniently remembers him?

Of course they could have made X's not remembering Zero a plot point which, at the end, might have been resolved.  I mean it wasn't really necessary to retcon that, even if they felt bringing Zero back was.

Did you people even play X5 lately? X forgets Zero when Zero goes maverick. X6 goes from the Zero ending in which he is a playable character. Completely mutually exclusive events. Zero himself delivers the final blow to Sigma and X carries the saber in his memory. X6's intro make this perfectly clear.

After that, it falls to pieces. Nightmare Zero becomes irrelevant, which was terrible writing. He's never even mentioned again, not even brought up.

The Zero Nightmare had the explicit purpose to give Isoc his excuse to start the Nightmare investigation so that he could lure out and locate the real Zero.  It's a stepping stone to the next part of the plot, that is the mystery of Isoc, which requires Zero's return.

After it's defeat it's often referenced by bosses accusing Zero of the Nightmare, still. Gate on the other hand, has nothing to do with the ghost of Zero that Isoc is hunting. He also noted he could care less about even the real body of Zero. He only went along with Isoc's plans so that he could test himself against the original, and that was low on his list of priorities as he, unlike Isoc, figured Zero was dead.

Zero shows up after the Zero's Nightmare's defeat because he's been trying to clear his own name from that fake. X took care of it for him, and therefore Zero felt it was time to return. In one ending he again references the fact that he needs to take care of that and other matters before he can return to the frontlines.

All in all, you're putting unjust emphasis on one minor plot element that only serves as a stepping stone toward the rest. Taking care of it is the introduction of X6, not the main story.

You've got a whole plot ready to revolve around the real mystery of the Nightmare Virus, and instead it just becomes "oh, well this guy is insane and sent the obligatory 8 maveri-I mean, Nightmare Investigators to come get you".

The real mystery of the Nightmare was explained adequately from start to finish. It even went in depth about the origins and motivations of its creator.  Tying all that to both Alia and the main characters.

I love Zero, he's what hooked me on the X series, don't get me wrong, but he simply was not necessary in X6 as a playable character.

From a gameplay perspective, Zero was wholly necessary.

From a story perspective too, his death in X5 makes absolutely no sense unless he's subsequently revived like X was. His creator is nearby, he was revived before, X was revived as well. It is the obviously sensical way to go.

From there, X6 puts Zero in the opportunity to figure out the mysteries behind his resurrection. In doing so, he stumbles upon a fake of himself, has the opportunity to ask Thomas Right and even raised his sword against the mysterious man that knows him inside out. Zero's resurrection was all about furthering the Wily storyline.

For the first one specifically, that's a mark of poor planning / creative direction.  In orther words, they should have thought more deeply on what kind of game they wanted, anticipated that Wily would never return, and deliver closure.

Are you kidding me? X6 is at fault because 2 years later some different team members decided to tell the preceding plotline to screw itself? This is a GAME series, you should judge it with the well known limitations of the format, not within the idealized conditions of writing the whole as a self contained unlimited page book without deadline by one and the same writer. As such, you have it backwards, you can never blame something what its sequels failed to do unless the sequel is handled under the aforementioned ideal conditions of writing. Judge the story for what it is intended to be, not for what it isn't.

X7 completely ignores this and everything before it just to throw in Zero, a new character, the same boring Sigma fights.. Its damn near trash.

X7 does not ignore Zero's seal. In fact, X7 answers several mysteries about the reason that he sealed himself. That seal was always presented as occurring at some indefinite future time.

It wasn't in the Megaman X manual.  And, that still means the game itself is badly written.  Excusing the game's shoddy dialogue because the manual conveys the real idea is a pretty poor defense.

That was a different time when games were simpler. That's like expecting R1 to have the same level of storytelling as R8. Because X1 is a game of a certain genre, the story was kept to a bare minimum and told in the manual.

1608

Rockman Series / Re: Writer question.

« on: April 22, 2009, 10:45:15 PM »

It negates X5's ending while not providing satisfactory closure.

But X6 was not an ending game, it was a new beginning, you can't expect it to give closure. As it should, it emphasizes that with the world at its current state, it is all too easy to topple the world order and reboot it. In the fragile state that is the world's end, a new order will be made from its ashes. X6 relies nicely on X5's ending and is as such a direct follow up.

Compared to the advances in X5, this game feels like it never needed to take place.

With the introduction of the virus spreading from Zero and Zero sealing himself, it's the first game to lead into the ZERO-series.

Plot-wise.  X5 takes our characters forward while X6 merely brings them back. 

I actually think the complete opposite, I feel like X6 actually moved all the characters forward and added a lot to the series.

Zero has clear progression on the matter of his mysterious revival, shedding light all the way back to X2. With the events of X5 behind him, he comes to realize that Sigma's words are not all trash, face to face with the mysterious Isoc, he's given an ominous message for the future. At the same time he has to fight against the power that originates from him. He sees how well and how dangerous he is firsthand and this is further emphasized in even Gate's ability to fully analyze Zero.

X himself has to deal with the reconstruction of the world, yet being thrown into yet another conflict. He has to fight for his friend's reputation in an uphill battle of limitless potential against the impossible odds that are his friend's own power. Simply because he has to win, he negates all stats and data and defeats the strongest enemies. X has to deal with his dear navigator's hardships, an emotional reunion with his friend and the ideal of his utopia to head toward.

Alia is immensely fleshed out from the emotionless character that was married to her work.  Not just her, but the main antagonist was focused on with depth and drama. And as a result of that, the eight bosses even begin to tie in much more closely with the story around it all. The story of unanalyzable repliroids that are feared, the story of misunderstood genius, the story of government paranoia, these matters tough the world of all the characters involved. From Alia's regretful past, from Gate's desires, to the origins of X and Zero and the mysterious Isoc.

As for Sigma, he relates to the beginning part of X6 in which the Sigma Virus from Zero infects Gate. Gate is driven to insanity by it and goes through such a dangerous thing as reviving Sigma. It shows us how far Sigma's influences goes beyond death and it shows us how dangerous he is in an incomplete state. Gate tried to control Sigma, but Sigma does not allow himself to be controlled. X6 emphasizes his sheer hatred for X and Zero and how dangerous he truly is.

1609

Rockman Series / Re: Writer question.

« on: April 22, 2009, 09:31:22 PM »

Perhaps by your estimation.  Maybe my standards are too high.

Do tell, in which ways is X6 not a good sequel to X5?

1610

Rockman Series / Re: Writer question.

« on: April 22, 2009, 09:24:25 PM »

X6 was intended to be the sequel to X5.  That's why it has the "6" after the "X".  As such I can totally call shenanigans if it's not a good sequel.

That and it's place as a non sequiter after X5. 

But X6 is also a good sequel to X5 in every way, it's X7 that isn't a good sequel to X6 and X5.

Yes, and rewritten BADLY at times, right?

"Used to be a comrade of yours." Need I say more?

1611

Rockman Series / Re: Writer question.

« on: April 22, 2009, 08:47:06 PM »

So, basically, the X1 intro is "badly written" and "confusing."  "Incomprehensible" if you don't have the manual.  All of which might be resolved if they had actually included "worrying" (or, perhapse mroe accurately, "worrying without bias") to X1's intro.  But they didn't.  And we're not arguing what they might have done here.

But you SHOULD have the manual. It's part of the package you bought.

Don't blame the writers for crappy localizers.

Well, not quite.  I have trouble understanding why you can't see a new element in there when everybody else seems to.  It was pretty big news back in the day.

It was big news because people believed a connection between the Virus and X amounts to: OMG DR. LIGHT MADE THE VIRUS. Which isn't true no matter how you see it. If anything, that part's big revelation is that Zero has a 'suffering circuit'. Which by account of what that circuit and Zero actually are, was hinted at in the games already.

Well, now ... whose fault would that be?  Ours for misinterpreting the facts or Capcom's for failing to convey them well?  Because right now I'm looking at Capcom.  Either they failed to properly label the material in the source or they failed to translate it here ... I mean, either way it's their fault for not feeding us the peices of the puzzle we need to understand the story.

It's the fault of two things. Capcom of America's butchering of the series and the fans inability to read a basic disclaimer on canon.

Yeah, an anticlimactic ending to Wily's story sure is an example of awesome writing ....

That's the problem, you're blaming X6 for something it has nothing to do with. X6 was never intended to be an ending, rather it's a new beginning after the end. It's all the later games which fail at addressing Wily and should be blamed for it.

I'm so sorry that I can't take the marvelous writing that I'm sure is in the Rockman game into account.  I'm certain it's both captivating and full of nuance.

Except this is about X6 specifically, not about the series as a whole. X6 as a stand alone is amongst the best written titles in the series. It's just that nobody seems to take it seriously because of the super poor translation.

They are all approved by CoJ and are 100% official.

CoJ does not aprove of the type of blatant fabrications Capcom's been throwing our way since X1. Nor do they approve of their games being presented with extremely bad grammar.

"This is impossible! The prophecy must be fulfilled!" is so obviously the same thing as  "Being defeated by the robotic memento of Right.. such regret..."

Lots of similar changed lines throughout the whole of the X-series, not to mention entire manuals being rewritten.
Rewriting. That's the word. This isn't translation, it's rewriting.

1612

Rockman Series / Re: Writer question.

« on: April 22, 2009, 06:07:35 PM »

It's very much like how people say Classic series robots can't "think, feel, or make their own decisions" because of the X1 intro.  And don't claim that that hasn't caused a lot of needless confusion.

Only because the western world didn't have access to the proper X1 manual. The introduction of worrying adequately explains the subtle difference between the two types of robots.

The Maverick Virus.  The Sigma Virus.  The Zero Virus.  The Colony Virus.  Count' em. 

All the above are descriptive terms, you can understand wholly from the words what they are. It's neither random, nor in another language. The introduction of a descriptive term is better writing than leaving it unnamed or incomprehensibly named.

Furthermore, all four terms are entirely necessary within the flow from 1 to 5 that exist within the series.

The Irregular Virus term is general, it refers to all that fall within the same category; a viral pathogen that causes irregularity. This term needed to exist before the grand revelation of X3 gave a specific identity to this pathogen.

Because they would also coin the Zero Virus term in the future, the non-specific descriptor really doesn't work within the story anymore. As such, the introduction of the the former nicely leads into the latter to avoid confusion.

Therefore THREE need to exist with one never even used within X5.

The Colony Virus term was coined because another virus was needed to change the Sigma Virus into the Zero Virus.   If it wasn't another virus, it would have been any other plot device. They simply opted for a virus to implicate biological virus merger into a new and stronger form. A valid concept that has basis in the real world. Because they used that, the fourth term was naturally coined.

But I have to ask you when did CONCEPT become equal to WRITING? The WRITING of X1~X5 perfectly elaborates on their CONCEPT even if the concept is convoluted to you. Writing is the means by which the concept is communicated to you, but it does not define the concept itself.

Either you're talking of the concept being wrong, or you're talking about the writing being wrong. Do you feel the concept is confusing or that the game brought it in a confusing matter? Since you acknowledged you understand it, the writing did a good job in communicating it to you. Therefore, only the concept is bad, not the writing.

And yet that quote does not include the key term "suffering circit" ... so I'm left wondering why you quoted it at all ...

Are you just deliberately playing dumb, or what? The "suffering circuit" is the piece of hardware responsible worrying.  THAT is what's new in RZOCW. When it comes to the relation with the virus, that relation is never once explained in RZOCW, just alluded to. X1 itself explains worrying as the most important new feature of true free will and all subsequent games explain the virus in relation to that free will. The explanation is in the games, not in RZOCW.

So, the only new thing between RZOCW and the X-series is the new amazing grand epic revelation development that X who is a robot has named circuitry responsible for that feature! Wow, never would have thought a robot had circuitry.   And that circuit even has a NAME?!

Beyond that, the text that speaks of the suffering circuit says everything that should already be known. Reading it as  anything else is just taking it completely out of its context. Your confusion like everyone else's lies with mistranslation and misinterpretation.

omg Really!?  So Rockman X6 has a plot revolving around X and deals decicively with the Wily subplot before X7 goes in an entirely new direction!?  Then I must take it back.  X6 fits in well with the themes established in X5 and puts the focus squarely back onto X, where it belongs.  How could I have known Capcom took that game and reworked it into an irrelevant travesty!?

Again, when did concept and writing become each other's equals?

RockmanX6's story has certain themes that it explored in depth. If you can't pick out these themes and how these relate to the series as a whole you obviously do not understand X6's story. Even the mistranslated game makes all of them clear enough. X6's themes further the setting, focus on both X and Zero,explore the side characters of Gate and Alia. Even good ole Wily is accounted for.

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about Megaman X7.  Obviously you're talking about the game Axl and Zero.  Yeah, you're right, I guess.  With the game being called "Axl and Zero" it only makes sence that the former headliner be put to the sidelines.  It's perfectly in keeping with his character to want to be in the sidelines and not the main action, and it's totally not expected that Megaman X be initially playable in a game called "Axl and Zero".  We should just be grateful that they tossed us a bone and put him in there at all.

I'm not talking about a 'game' to begin with. I'm talking about a story. The demand to have Rockman X playable is a gameplay one. Storywise, there isn't even a PLAYABLE to begin with. Stories are read, not played. Storywise there's just a setting and characters and interaction between those. What you're demanding is imposing gameplay aspects onto the story.

If you say X7's flaw is not having its story adhere to gameplay, then you're admitting that the principle issue with writing in Rockman is format; they simply can't break the story away from the limitations of the game format, and if they do it is an outrage. You always need thematic minor characters in thematic minor areas to get their asses kicked by the main characters. You always have the matter of slow yearly releases and fickle fans negating any value to a long term plan.

I mean it's not like it's a "Megaman X" game.  I mean, technically it is.  But it's not like his name's in the title or anything stupid like that.

So, is the name based on the story or is the story based on the name? Based on that order, one is wrong and the other isn't. I feel that if you interpret the title as being about the character X, the the title is wrong, not the story. I don't consider it a real flaw that X is not the most focused on. That's not to say that I wouldn't like seeing X as having more focus.

Instead of seeing the title MegaManX as implicating the focus on the character of the same name, I see the title emphasizing the setting in which the story occurs; the setting is the one that came about as a result of the creation of the character with the same name. The name MegaManX also carries a lot of other meanings that are carried in the themes throughout the series, none of those themes however requires X to have the most focus.

1613

Rockman Series / Re: Writer question.

« on: April 21, 2009, 11:25:22 PM »

And this shouldn't be interpreted as "confusing" and "bad writing" ... why? 

You're confusing what Three Keys is and what it intended to do. It's not part of the the X-series, it's the ZERO-series and applies solely to the ZERO-series, ZERO3 specifically. But, it's not part of the story as it is being told, is it simply the ideas they had during the development of ZERO3, some if which changed because of conflicts with established canon. It is just food for thought, to make us figure out the stories of Zero and Omega ourselves.

And really, I already mentioned that the principle flaw of ZERO3 is lack of a conclusive origin on Omega and Zero. That's about, I don't want them to spell it all out, but there's just several key lines that could have made it clearer.

An unnecessary explanation is unnecessary.    Again, you're missing the point and are needlessly explaining the story.

And you're missing the point that the concept is simple and explained adequately in the games...

Now we're somewhere.  So you're taking each game as it's own individual entity.  Fine.  However, I'm looking at them as a series.  And it's the finer points which trip the games up, IMHO.  It's like a decathlon runner tripping on a rock.  The series ran along just fine until they decided to throw a rock in it's path and trip it up.

As a series, I view it a multitude of arcs with the aforementioned themes and revelations running across the first 5 games leading into a climax and an open imaginative end. All if which were written fine and addressed at the right time. It's only poor writing of you're entirely hung up on Wily being exposed completely. I choose to accept it as a deliberate mystery that we are to figure out for ourselves. The error is the same as ZERO3's, lots of hints are thrown around, but the final conclusive hint is missing.

With X6, it's both an epilogue and a new beginning, it adds nicely to X5 and furthers the Wily plotline but also sets the stage for further titles such as the ZERO-series and X7+. The X7+ arc, which you might as well call "the AXL-series" is where things suddenly appear to deviate. Yes, it's odd for that to happen with mainstream numbered games, but that's a really odd matter of game development. Lord knows people would beg for X7 to this day if they named these as sidegames.

All in all, just ignore the numbering. The story effectively ends at X5. X7 starts a new story in the same setting, ZERO starts a new story in a new setting. X6 is the bridge game. It's not quite fair to judge all this as a grand whole when it's not intended to be.

And that only leaves good ole Wily as the oddball deliberate mystery of the universe.

It's odd that you're saying "It's always been there" when most others say "it's a surprising new development."  I'll go with the majority of others who found it a surprising twist rather than "oh yeah, it's really more of the same."

I quoted the X1 manuals did I not? It's only a new development because Capcom of America likes to make their own stuff in the manuals. It's not a matter of bad writing from the original source; it's a matter of rewriting. Much like the entire X-series is filled with crappy translation.

I'll eat my words when X9 comes out and resolves the Wily plotline.  Yes, it'd have to do both.

Wait for X12.

A badly written game is a badly written game.  I guess it's a bit of a cheap shot, but Capcom left themselves open for it when they wrote the game badly.

X6 is not badly written, it is badly translated. Sigma however, is not the case in point. X6 made Sigma out of his mind as a result of an inadequate revival, this is shown very nicely in every sentence he speaks. Therefore it's a mark of good writing; they made the guy they intended as having lost his marbles sound like he really did.

For the rest of the game, X6 has amazingly well covered themes. X and Zero's personal growth. Gate and Alia's tragic past. Isoc's mysterious appearance. All of it adds up to a game filled with intrigue and mystery and a lot of depth. When it comes down to it, it's THE best written story in the series.

And your only complaint would be good ole Wily which we'll take into the grave.

Yeah, I know it might be an odd thing to expect.

The gameplay rules of an action series dictate it. Storywise, he's a pacifism and can choose not to fight. There's no written rule that a character can not be focused upon away from the frontlines.

1614

X / Re: Timeline of X

« on: April 21, 2009, 09:25:47 PM »

few typos there Zan.

That's just me rewriting the canon.

1615

Rockman Series / Re: Writer question.

« on: April 21, 2009, 09:10:01 PM »

I find it ironic that it's only "non-canon" when it suits your current point. I don't recall you having any qualms about using it as a proof when it came to X being the only Reploid to lack bias.  Which, by the way, is another thing not covered in the games. 

They said 'might.' Some is, some isn't, and it will change with time.

And really, I never used it as canon to explain anything, all matter the three keys point at are in the games or sourcebooks somewhere. Three keys is not to be taken as literal and out of context; it is to point you to the other sources to figure it out.

Worrying in that regard is adequately explained in X1 and IHX completely in line with three keys, therefore making the workings of worrying as explained in three keys a fact. In other words, there's nothing to contradict it, there's everything that backs it up. The way three keys works, you're supposed to interpret it without contradiction, or discard all elements that contradict.

Oh yeah, a virus that overrides free will relates directly to a concept introduced first in a source book

Manual. X1. Worrying is the new epoch in robotics that allows X the ability to think and feel and make his own decisions.

The "suffering circuit" is just a name for that specific piece of hardware that's responsible for worrying.

Both the name and the hardware itself are irrelevant. The effect is what's important, and the effect was always known. What difference does it make that you know it has a metal casing and has a name? It's a part of X's psyche, that's what is important.

The Sigma virus is the Maverick virus.  One of these terms doesn't need to exist.

An irregular virus was revealed to be Sigma, hence Sigma Virus.

Somehow, crashing a space colony spreads a virus about. 

Sigma himself said he turned Eurasia into a virus colony.

And the purpose of this new virus is to interact with a known virus and, somehow, merge to create a close approximation of Zero's original virus.  All this as opposed to, say, Wily just releasing the Zero virus.

As I already said, Sigma Virus turning into Zero Virus was important to convey the feeling that Zero was the origin of Sigma Virus. They showed how much of Zero exists in the Sigma Virus.

I actually tried explaining X5 and the Zero virus to my sister, who knows nothing about X, and she was thorough confused and didn't care for it.  Lord knows I've seen newbies come in various forums asking about the virus.  Even the Megaman Wiki can admit it's confusing.

Uber complicated, you need to have studied biology to understand it.

So, where is it, Zan?  Where's the good writing in the X series?  It can't be with the Wily subplot; they switched gears on that after a long buildup with no payoff.  Is it with X's story?  Because the games focus mostly on Zero and his story.  So maybe it's that?  I'll admit that Zero's story is pretty good, despite the series being "Megaman X" and all.  So if the story isn't about the title character, then is that "good writing?"

Each game on its own is well written. With special mention of certain games, such as IHX, X4, X6, XS. Which delivered their themes to near perfection.

When it comes to the game to game storyline, they had multiple plotlines running through the games, all of which amount to one climax; the battle between X and Zero.  From establishing X's unlimited potential in a war of progress, to the dark origins of Zero to the creation of Sigma Virus to their mutual fear of becoming irregulars. All of which leads to their climatic battle at the end of the world. The order of revelations leading to X5 is well written in my opinion, especially for such a limited format.

The X-series as intended by Inafune ends there leaving only the mystery that is Wily's current presence.

X6 is effectively a stand alone epilogue title that serves to give one final hint to that one lingering mystery.

XC and XS are stand alone titles that fill in certain things they couldn't focus on in the other games.

And until that story plays out its course, you're best off considering X7+ it's own seperate entity from X1~5+6.

Didn't I mention this already? The X-series IS NOT OVER. Just like DASH isn't over. Just like ZX isn't over. Just like classic wasn't over after 8+RnF. The only series to have ended officially are ZERO and EXE. X7 and X8 are written with X9 in mind.

"Zello?"

Perfectly fine writing. Crappy translation, but not at that point of the game.

Hypershell's magic fish will have a word with you, I quote:

WHEN WILL PEOPLE REALIZE SIGMA IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE SOUND OF MIND!

And where the title character isn't even accessible at first?  Is that "good writing"? 

Where is there a rule that the main character of the story has to be at the frontlines? There is a rule that the main character of a game has, but not in story. Honestly, X7 did a nice job focusing on X's pacifism in the aftermath of the world having ended, even if it underplayed it because of game format. But, that you desperately want your X playable and that some can't stand his whiny voice actor has nothing and absolutely nothing to do with the story.

1616

Rockman Series / Re: Writer question.

« on: April 21, 2009, 05:58:50 PM »

Of course none of that mentions how X's suffering circit comes into play and how it's the "true form" of the virus.

Mind telling me what such a thing as true form even means? It means literally nothing beyond "non-elaborated relation". Also: "might not be canon" RZOCW clearly says.

Really, no source actually says anything direct about how X's suffering circuit (read: worrying) applies to the Virus. Not even RZOCW. All sources outside of RZOCW and RZOCW itself say Repliroid free will/suffer circuit/worrying causes irregulars under certain conditions, and all sources including RZOCW say the Sigma Virus causes irregulars. So obviously the two are innately connected. That is all that is said.

And that Zero is actually infected and still spreading said virus. 

RockmanX6. Having a piece of Zero's body make a genius Repliroid go bonkers wasn't obvious enough?

- The Colony Virus.  Honestly, why did they even bother to add this in?  Wily's helping Sigma; they could easily have attributed the Zero Virus to Wily without needing this virus.  For that matter ...

Why shouldn't it have existed? The entire point is that it merges with Sigma Virus to create a new entity. With the one or two mentions it got, they explained it adequately.

- The Zero Virus.  It really never needed to be labelled as a "virus" in order for it to work.  It isn't bad on it's own, but the game already deals with the Maverick, Sigma, and Colony viruses!  What's worse is that this virus didn't really need to exist.  They could have done the same thing with the floating Sigma heads.

What's with the bias against the term Virus?

The Sigma Virus merged with another and took on Zero's identity, making it suddenly become much more dangerous and allowing Zero to awaken. Why would something derived from a virus or two suddenly not be a virus?

The entire point of the revelation that is 'origin Zero' relies on the transformation of Sigma to Zero. The entire alternate route to awaken Zero relies on Eurasia's crash. As such, both the Colony Virus and the Zero Virus are entirely necessary elements of RockmanX5.

- The X virus.  This was just a bad attempt at a "cool" enemy.

There is no X virus, what are you talking about?

- The Nightmare Virus.  Honestly, it didn't need to be called a "virus" and it's just adding fuel to the fire.

The thing invades Repliroids and alters their genes. What else than a Virus would you call it? By making it a Virus, Capcom elaborated a great deal on matters of Virus substantiation and their weaknesses to conventional and program weapons. Furthermore, it's entirely of note that such a thing could be made from Zero's DNA.

Each virus is fine on it's own.  However they become a complex mess taken all together.  What's worse is that they all sorta do the same thing!  So you have several viruses that all take over Reploids, but they all have subtle differences.  Except for the Maverick and Sigma viruses, which are interchangable.  But that interchangability is a detraction because then you have Capcom talking about Zero infecting Sigma with the Sigma virus.

The differences and purpose of each is pretty blatant if you ask me:

The Irregular Virus: Any Virus that turns Repliroids into irregulars.
The Sigma Virus: The Virus that came from Zero, eventually merged with Sigma, and turns Repliroids into Irregulars. Could turn Zero into an irregular but is not potent enough.
The Colony Virus: The Virus that was spread on board Eurasia with the purpose of merging with the Sigma Virus to create the Zero Virus.
The Zero Virus: The combination of the Sigma and Colony Viruses. Is like Sigma Virus, but resembles Zero instead of Sigma and is far more potent in turning Zero into an irregular.
The Nightmare Virus: Extremely powerful virus with a physical form, attaches onto Repliroids, invades their bodies and alters their DNA.

ALL of this is outright said in the game. No manual nor sourcebook needed.

And the Suffering Circit also didn't need to be added into the virus' already complex backstory.  I mean, really.  As if Zero's code corrupting Sigma wasn't enough.  No, now we need to add in how Cain's copy of X's circuit is partially to blame.  So, not only do we need to understand that viruses cause Mavericks, we also need to get behing the suffering circit and understand that this mess came about by their interaction.

Suffering Circuit = Worrying = The ability to think, feel and make your own decisions = free will.

No way that the Sigma Virus which creates irregulars relates to free will, that's just such a ludicrously overcomplicated concept!

And you can add "the origional Zero virus" to the list of "viruses that don't need to exist". 

Without the original virus, Sigma being a virus is unexplained and we'd have a PLOTHOLE.

Because even if I'm wrong and it isn't confusing at all

It is NOT confusing, discard everything you know, go play the games in order and pay attention. THIS is the flow of the X-series:


X1: X worries and because he worries, he has true free will. Repliroids are modified versions of X. Repliroids can go irregular because of free will and glitches in their brain...

X2: Sigma is spreading a virus to forcedly create irregulars. Mysterious wireframe bosses attack you. Oh and Zero was the last of the Wi.. Numbers.

X3: ZOMG Sigma is the virus and it's a wireframe! So that's what that was! So that's why Sigma revives! Huh, Zero has to fight with X someday?

X4: Hmm... Zero was an irregular, who's that doctor? Wily? Wait, why'd Zero turn good? Why'd Sigma turn evil? X and Zero fear they might turn into irregulars...

X5: The world is thrown into mass chaos thanks the Sigma Virus. Hmm.. Zero is getting stronger from it. Does he have antibodies or is he a danger? What?! The Virus from Eurasia merged with the Sigma Virus and now resembles Zero?! Huh, his data is the same, the virus is everywhere but there's no virus reading. That is Zero's true self.. They're accusing each other of being irregular, epic battle between X and Zero! Ah, the virus purifies his body.. So the Virus comes from Zero?! Oh! So that explains the flashback from X4! Oh wow, Wily started all this mess by putting a virus inside of Zero!

X6: Hey, the Virus is spreading from that piece of Zero. And a genius scientist can make a Virus by using Zero's DNA. Yeah, that makes sense as the Virus originally came from Zero. Oh, this Virus is very strong, so it has a physical form. I guess that explains why Sigma Virus can sometimes be a wireframe or a floating sigma head, it's becoming physical!

What you're having trouble with is reading too much into a vaguely worded non-canon piece of text that was never even shown within the same series!

1617

Rockman Series / Re: Writer question.

« on: April 20, 2009, 11:01:00 PM »

Perhaps I should have said "everyone assumed it was just Wily's doing and had absolutely nothing to do with X at all"?   

Except the assumption that it's Wily's doing is the right one. Inafune even blurts it out with the 'brought back by the Virus' line of his. That its origin is X is taking RZOCW out of context and ignoring it's disclaimer on canon. But solely within RZOCW, if Wily did not make it, what's the point of even mentioning it with Zero? Zero was the first infected. If it wasn't origin Wily, than the first infected is Sigma, which is untrue.

They should either have made their idea less complicated or put it in one of the game's introduction.  Or even in a manual at least!  Did they ever explain the virus in a manual?

Their idea is spelled out in the revelations from RockmanX3 to RockmanX4 to RockmanX5.

Sigma is revealed as THE irregular virus.

Zero was an irregular, Sigma was good. Sigma defeats Zero. Sigma goes irregular, Zero becomes good.

The Sigma Virus empowers Zero because it purifies him. Using the Colony Virus, Wily transforms it into the ZERO Virus. The Zero Virus awakens Zero's true self. There is no Virus reading, just Zero's normal data. Sigma Virus works the same way but the amount is unsufficient.

Long before we had any books, people drew the correct conclusions from that.

But, X5 is written as a deliberate mystery, ingredients that imagine, they wanted us to figure this out on our own. The books provide the answer who can't figure it out or for those who want confirmation.

Not to mention that it's damned confusing that "Sigma" did not put the "Sigma Virus" into Zero.  That just compounds the virus problem and is another example of poor writing.  They should never have introduced the term "Sigma Virus" or should have stopped using it when they decided on Zero being "patient Zero".

That's just their odd retroactive use of names. Like Repliroid referring to X and Zero before Repliroids existed. It's their way of talking about it outside of the timeframe of the games.

But when applied to patient Zero, it makes remarkably clear they're talking of Sigma Virus and not Zero Virus. Cause even the newly made Zero Virus is different from the original, after all, it is far more potent. The original virus is much like Sigma's in its potency, it just lacks the Sigma DNA addition.

1618

Rockman Series / Re: Writer question.

« on: April 20, 2009, 10:18:18 PM »

Didn't you use that "psudocanon" as unabashed fact in an earlier debate?

Regardless, I wasn't talking about X's worrying, I was talking about the Maverick / Sigma Virus.  And the relationship between that and X personally is explained int he quote there.  Before that quote everyone (including the "learned few") assumed the virus was Wily's doing.

The Virus IS Wily's doing. Like I said, RZOCW is vague, it just implicates a connection, nothing exact and concrete. The fact exists in all the other sources, not in RZOCW. RZOCW is merely a compass pointing at the facts.

Rockman Perfect Memories:
Exactly what kinds of secrets are sleeping in Zero's past?
Zero has almost no memory of the past.  However, sometimes he seems to see a person resembling Dr. Wily in his dreams.  And it's also said that Zero was born with the Sigma Virus already inside of him. His creation is it actually to battle with whom?  One would never think it was for justice, however...
X: He was made by Dr. Right.  Will the time for his fated battle with Zero come?
Dr. Wily: The one who put the Sigma Virus in Zero is, perhaps him......

http://forum.rockmanpm.com/index.php?topic=1389.0

1619

Rockman Series / Re: Writer question.

« on: April 20, 2009, 09:55:49 PM »

Edit: Right, that's what I was talking about.  Fully explained int he Z series first.

X's worrying is explained in RockmanX1 itself, game manual.


The act of worrying in “X” marks a new epoch in robotics and is the first time this experiment has succeeded, but if it extends to matters that by their nature must not be questioned, it would be disastrous. In the worst case, if a robot were to harm humans deliberately, humankind would tremble with fear the like of which was unknown even in the days of the “Dr. Wily” incidents…]


The inadequacies of Repliroids compared to X are explained in the same game.


11/22
With Rockman X as a reference, I’ve completed the first robot “Repliroid.”
It doesn’t mean I completely understand how the system Dr. Light built operates.
I tried making a few small revisions to the system.
Thereupon, the Repliroid became fully functional.

7/16
Three Repliroids became “Irregular,” and were shut down because they injured two people.
This is the third case of this kind of defect in Repliroids, and I have no idea what the cause is.
Some say we had better stop the creation of Repliroids.


Remember how the ingame equivalent to worrying talks of free will? Remember the dangers of free will? Remember that mistakes in the electronic brain cause irregulars? Remember how Sigma Virus causes irregulars? Remember how Sigma Virus overwrites free will?

RZOCW just adds extra emphasis on there being a relation, which was obvious to begin with. And IHX takes a hammer and hits you over the head with it.

1620

Rockman Series / Re: Writer question.

« on: April 20, 2009, 09:36:30 PM »

Wasn't the Maverick virus finally definitively explained in a Zero series sourcebook? 

It wasn't. They just mentioned some vague pseudo-canon essence of the Virus. There is nothing concretely said. The text isn't really explanatory, it is to make us think about these matters by putting a spotlight on certain aspects. In this regard the spotlight was put on the Virus in relation to X's worrying in order to lead toward the story of Zero's seal. All the real information can be found by looking at the X-series and putting each concept in its adequate perspective.


THE THREE KEYS TO SOLVING THE MYSTERY OF ZERO AND OMEGA.

Zero and Omega are two Reploids with a very complex bond, and they engage in a memorable battle in Zero 3.  Here, we examine the background information regarding the three key elements that tie these two together in an attempt to reveal some previously unknown angles to the story.

(NOTE; The information that follows comes from the early concept phases for the Zero series' scenario, and therefore may not be canonical.")

Sigma Virus
The dreadful Sigma Virus that transforms repliroid to iregular.
The true form of which, was a suffering circuit Right inserted into X during the time of his creation.
A repliroid which possesses a suffering circuit,
in regards to a society where humans and repliroids coexist,
so as to be biased towards neither side,
it is fated always to worry continuously as to which side it should stand upon.
Zero was the first repliroid to be infected with the Sigma Virus but
Zero which was developed by Wily to be a completely evil repliroid,
despite being infected by Sigma Virus isn't transformed into an iregular, [instead]
was reborn as a good repliroid.
But,
as Zero bustled about for the sake of fulfilling his missions as an Iregular Hunter
the Sigma virus lying dormant within his own body was scattered throughout the world
inviting an ironic result.
And so Zero, having become carrier of the Sigma Virus, was admitted to the research facility.

1621

Rockman Series / Re: Writer question.

« on: April 20, 2009, 07:01:06 PM »

Wily in X~6 is a great example of this.  They seemed to be on their way to doing something.  But X7 switched gears.  I doubt we'll ever hear of Wily again.  So he's a huge plothole in the X series.  Yes, the whole mystery behind Wily was entirely deliberate, but the story ended before it was finished.

That's just the thing though, the game that deliberately leaves it vague is the game that ends the series; X5. As of that point it's a entirely deliberate eternal mystery and not a plothole.

With X6's release, the X5 team counters their own ending because they wanted to do more with the story. X6 gives exactly the answers we've been wanting to the deliberate mystery. Based on X6's ending, they could have only wanted further elaboration on the Wily storyline. As such, from this point on, it'll become a plothole if its left unanswered before the series ends.

So, it's only a plothole thanks to X7+ sudden new direction. However, as the storyline introduced in X7 has not yet ended, it is not fair to except the grandest revelation of the series to have yet occurred.

Ofcourse, thanks to Inafune, we now know the games and books were inadequate in telling us some key facts about Wily. The next X-game or book definitely has to clear up these matters, otherwise we just have to accept that the whole concluded X-series was inadequate in telling what needed to be told.

But Ciel's being "missing" far beyond her life expectancy is a real lapse in logic. 

At the formation of Legions, equality laws were established. By law, humans who are of a certain degree of age are given robotic bodies, partial or otherwise, giving humans the strenght and durability of Repliroids. The 3 wise men of Legions, who established this law, have lived for several centuries thanks to their machine bodies.

Repliroids are given mortality by use of a life activity timer which is activated the moment the electronic brain is. To make clear the difference between humans and Repliroids, those born as Repliroids are given a triangular red mark on their forehead.

The secret behind these laws is that they allow Albert to select his chosen ones and Thomas to create new life.
Vent and Aile are human Chosen Ones, emphasizing the certain degree of age at which a machine body is given is below 14.

When Ciel disappeared, all Repliroids shown had clear triangular markings and Serpent was a Chosen One; the equality laws are in place. Ciel had passed that certain degree of age a long time ago and was granted a machine body, partial or otherwise.

Ciel did not look too different from before. As leader of the Guards, her youthful visage serves as the bust of the Grand Nuage.

At the time of Ciel's disappearance, the LiveMetals she created were based on legends, a long time had passed since the days of Neo Arcadia. Then a long time passed again.

I don't see the leap of logic; she's immortal. She already lived for more than a century. I don't see why she just can't stay missing for nearly another century. Especially if her loved ones refuse to accept she died.

Followed by her return with world shattering revelations.

Maybe "better writing" would involve them not trying so hard and making things unnessasarily complicated.  I mean, if your game needs a sourcebook to explain what you just played then ....

I think the only time they needed a sourcebook was to explain ZERO3. But that's only because they don't appear to have it quite figured out by that time. ZERO3 is just lacking in precisely the key sentences needed to make it all clear, even though it's simple enough to hint at. And of course, none of the necessary info was included in ZERO4, as that would have ruined that story's flow as much as the Big4 would have.

1622

Rockman Series / Re: Writer question.

« on: April 18, 2009, 11:47:34 AM »

THERE ARE NO PLOT HOLES!!

Rather, people like throwing that term around so much, it ought to be censored too.

There are plotholes, but anything involving the classic - X connection and Wily in X~X6 is just entirely deliberate. They do not want to reveal or even think of certain matters. For the rest, the majority of plotholes is either information available in the books, or translation mistakes. Like Wily being a comrade of X = translation error.

I think in general the biggest flat out plotholes are stuff like Lifesaver, Cain and Douglas dropping off the face of the earth.

Only thing is, we might never get to know what happens because of crappy sales.

We got to hold a couple of translators at gun point and demand translation of 5 islands and Gigamix.

Gigamix has some nice stuff, like did you know Prometheus believes DAN-003 is called Grey because of his hair? >.>

1623

Anime & Manga / Re: Bleach (Manga Discussion Mainly)

« on: April 18, 2009, 01:12:47 AM »

Zan, there's self-derail here, you can turn off censoring so it can be visible just to that person. Or that could be sarcasim.

I was joking. ButI still don't like how it reads highly enjoyable for everyone else >.>

If Yammy was still number 10 it would have been more interesting, seeing Rukia defeated Aaroniero with not a small amount of plot armor, Renji was powerless against Szayel and Chad...huh, is Chad. Just those three against a liberated 10 Yammy with some quirk would have been an interesting battle. Now it's up to plot armor or the rest of characters stuck in Hueco Mundo to save the day again.

Each of them already got their chance to shine against the Exequias and Espadas. I don't see why you wouldn't welcome such a nice opportunity for Unohana to long-awaitedly 'save the day.'

1624

X / Re: Has anyone ever noticed in X4...

« on: April 18, 2009, 12:55:52 AM »

Egrerion

E r e g i o n

That hard? You should see it in Japanese.

1625

Anime & Manga / Re: Bleach (Manga Discussion Mainly)

« on: April 17, 2009, 11:49:03 PM »

"I'm going to di--LOLSURPRISE HOLLOW MODE", and the Vizard training was more than enough Complete Hollowification. This fight felt so damned recycled.

We knew from over a 100 chapters ago that his hollow would be back, the guy said so himself.

Besides, there are plenty of differences between this battle and Byakuya's. From the immense power gap, influence from other characters, Ichigo's death, Ulquiorra driving Orihime and Ishida to the point of terror, Ichigo's lack of mind, his inability to return to normal, him desecrating corpses and attacking his own friends.

If you think just going hollow makes the two fights the exact same, that is being quite superficial. The very concepts of the two battles were even different from the very beginning. Ichigo was attempting to show Byakuya he was at his level. Against Ulquiorra, the odds were always impossible, but still he tried desperately because he had to win.

"I just wasn't there fighting" was a flawless reason until this week.

Don't think of it from a story perspective, think of it from a presentation perspective. As the weakest of the Espada,  he was always cannon fodder, especially now that he lasted so long and everybody else fought stronger adversaries. The main characters even talk of it in front of Yammy, which is why he revealed that twist. All in all, Yammy's recent revelation makes perfect sense in giving all of the Espada equal spotlight.

As for a story perspective. Ever since Aizen went to the real world, it has always seemed he's leaving his home base barely defended. Yammy's power boost rectifies this. Sooner or later Wonderweiss, who is an Espada level numeros, will probably also be thrown into the mix.

Aaroniero > Szayel > Grimmjow (well, not here) Zommari > Nnoitra > Ulquiorra > Now it's Halibel's turn)

That wasn't the order. Szayel lasted beyond Grimmjow and Zomari.

9 > 6 > 7 > 8 > 5 > 4.

0/10, 1, 2 and 3 are remaining. Not that orderly to me.

Hoping to get some answer in a hypothetical 'climax' or 'answers' arc is like confirming the pace of the plot has been poor, at the very

Kubo's pace is slow. But his work is best read in rapid succession, not in a weekly manner. It should not be judged by chapters, rather by the whole.

Besides, he drops enough hints for the answers to be figured out before he reveals it all.

I don't see these dramatic moments you speak of, by the way.

Every single major event that ever happened in the series? I'd use the word epic too, but that's censored.