Messages

1226

X / Re: X8. I didnt like it all that much.

« on: October 09, 2009, 02:32:20 AM »

I was putting emphasis on the amount of lives you have. By that point the garbage compressor must have killed you plenty for an easy game over if you're really stuck.

1227

ZX / Re: Raiders = Red Alert?

« on: October 09, 2009, 01:57:09 AM »

True, but the rest of the biotels are named after the reploid they're a model of.

You might recall The First Commander named those. Whereas Albert named Model A. Model A really really dislikes that name.

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ZX / Re: Raiders = Red Alert?

« on: October 09, 2009, 01:34:08 AM »

Exactly what he said it was, nothing more, nothing less.

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X / Re: X8. I didnt like it all that much.

« on: October 09, 2009, 01:33:14 AM »

Good point.  I'm just used to Hyper Dashing everywhere, and I foolishly did not write down my "impossible jump requirements" the last time I elaborated on that level.

Well, the whole ice burst + pixel perfect precision dash jump + respawning Nightmares combination certainly makes for quite a hellish near impossible jump. Really, I pity the person that manages to get in there without any of the requirement and lots and lots of lives. Though if you succeed in getting there with so many extra lives, you probably know X6 well enough not to make such a foolish mistake...

You know, I wonder why X5 and X6 even has something as arbitrary as extra lives... continues place you at the exact same place... They might as well have given you an escape function that can be used at any given time...

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ZX / Re: Raiders = Red Alert?

« on: October 09, 2009, 01:23:47 AM »

Huh, I never noticed the Red-in-a-capsule before...

It's nothing like Red. It's more like a sort of recolored Galleon with a tube on its back attached to the airship. Once Ashe stands on top of it, it raises its head, causing the tube on his back to blend oddly with the highlight of the casing creating the illusion of Red's helmet design.

X7 is as much a part of Zero/ZX background as any other X-series game.  X6's preview-sealing, X7's foreboding dreams, Orbital Elevators (Z1, Z3, X8, and XCM there), Omega's Rekkoha (X6 skill), and probably many more points that I'm not bothering to keep track of.

That and between all of Inti's games, ZXA is probably the most connected to X7, what with copy abilities becoming an increasingly important plot point. I don't see how one can deny all the allusions made between Advent and story of X7, X8 and XCM

they survived long enough that their ships still existed in Neo Arcadia.

The ships in question do not imply how long Repliforce survived. Repliforce has after all not been seen since X5. It's merely that their facilities and such were put to use by others without ever having the Repliforce symbol removed.

Underground Laboratory
ZERO 1
An old research facility used by Repliforce marines long ago to investigate oceanic geological features, for the purposes of oceanic development and early detection of volcano eruptions. The large caverns leading to the depths of the ocean came to double as a sort of natural fortress for their military base of operations. More recently, captured Reploids were organized and shipped to Neo Arcadia from here to be used as test subjects in experiments or for extra parts.

...wut?

Isn't it obvious? If we accept such a direct connection between the Illegal Hunters and Red Alert, we must also accept Model A as being Axl without a doubt.

1231

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 08, 2009, 09:56:21 PM »

Also, I never really got why there was so much confusion as to how Wily could "assist" Light without being named as a co-creator.  To me, there's a really BIG difference between "assistant" and "co-creator".  Wily could have done anything from going over Light's math to bringing him his coffeeand not be a co-creator.  There's just no contradiction at all in saying that Wily was Light's assistant and that Light created Protoman. 

There are two big problems with the notion of Wily as an assistant. First and foremost, he would never ever stand to be put in second place to Light. Secondly, he'd still be responsible for the crime of activating an unfinished prototype of a sentient being, therefore, ProtoMan would hate him.

I'd only consider English "canon" to be separate from Japanese in the case of vocabulary, that being it is only natural for terms to change across regions.

Other than that, I, and I think most fans, regard English games as simply translations.  They are derivative works, and future installments will build on the originals.  The perfect example of this is X3.  "To save mankind, he must destroy Zero".  A small rephrase left big implications that were never fulfilled.  It's not that Japanese sources aren't brought here because they aren't applicable; it's that the big shots in charge generally do not consider it worthwhile to do so.  The entity behind this story is a business, after all, and their primary business is games.

Very much agreed here. But some people don't see it this way and insist on their "US canon" vehemently. As I recall, I've once commented on a remark that MegaMan8 should have followed up on MegaMan7's "Die Wily" quote. The scene in question not being in the Japanese game, I saw no need for the writers of the next game to take it into account and adressed such. The poster of the remark got very defensive....

Really, it is as you say. There's no "US canon" outside of the consistent localization changes that are the character's names. And even then, we've had particularly odd cases such as "Gospel" in Battle Network2, AquaMan to SpoutMan between Battle Network 4 and 6, and let's not forget "Mega" instead of "Rock".  The difference between "MegaMan" Voulnutt and "MegaMan" Trigger is also a particularly infamous one.

All in all, the "US canon" stopped existing once consistency was lost. Even more so now that Powered Up has trampled all over the remainder of it. The notions born from it nowadays should only exist as ingredients that spark our imagination, not as the canon story of the games. That's not such a thing as favoring a particular region, that's merely favoring the original source.

1232

ZX / Re: Raiders = Red Alert?

« on: October 08, 2009, 09:38:56 PM »

Maybe. Does it change anything?

It makes Model A Axl.

1233

X / Re: X8. I didnt like it all that much.

« on: October 08, 2009, 09:38:09 PM »

I thought dash-jump for everything was faster than ground dashing?  That's the only way you get into Metal Shark Player's alternate area partless (not that you'd want to without Ultimate).

Why would you want Ultimate? I had no issues with partless  and armorless X. The only requirement is being equipped with Wolfang's weapon. Sure, the jump is tricky, but X6 gives you infinite retries.

1234

X / Re: How would you describe Sigma?

« on: October 08, 2009, 09:35:31 PM »

Gee maybe that's because CM came out first.

If X8's story was not set in stone as of the time of XCM's writing, Redips and other New Generation Repliroids would not be in the game. Likewise, Sigma himself would be the final boss. That Sigma was excluded and Redips and his followers are key points in the game are therefore proof positive that they would have taken into account something as major as Axl's X8 ending.

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Zero / Re: Are the Big 4 technically X's children?

« on: October 08, 2009, 07:57:03 PM »

Which is why they had those special weapons made

Their weapons weren't made for war either.

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Zero / Re: Are the Big 4 technically X's children?

« on: October 07, 2009, 11:29:22 PM »

MHX/IHX almost made it sound like it was derived when X was released from his 30-year diagnostic scan early.

How do you even get that from a game that doesn't mention Sigma Virus at all?

Also, all indicators on the capsule were green and a 100 years have passed. Early? More like late.

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Zero / Re: MegaMan Zero, then and now.

« on: October 07, 2009, 09:08:14 PM »

So, supposing that X's tiredness is related to the echoes of history and the reawakening of tragic memories from over a hundred years ago... Did you want to venture a hypothesis on where Zero is for the other half a century where he's not being studied and worked with?

There's multiple ways we can approach this. One proposition could be that the study of Zero did not have to start immediately. We know for a fact the facility in question was built to house him. How much time was needed to build this facility?

Likewise, we could wonder if the idea of studying Zero's Sigma Virus came about immediately. Zero's initial purpose was to remove something from himself. Perhaps they spent a good portion of that time removing the thing in question? Perhaps Zero was put in quarantine for a considerable time in the hopes that his absence would stop the spreading of the Sigma Virus? Perhaps for the longest time they ignored Zero under assumption that the samples of Zero's Sigma Virus were no different than the regular Sigma Virus? We would also have to consider the trouble in properly avoiding the negative effects of Zero's Sigma Virus on the research in question. Studying the Sigma Virus under safe conditions is no small feat.

The opposite proposition is considering the effectiveness of Mother Elf. With the completion of Mother Elf, Zero is purified from the Virus and his study comes to an end. But what about the rest of the world? Was her effect an instantaneous deus ex machina or did it take nearly half a century to turn all the Mavericks to normalcy? How long does it take to eliminate the Virus once and for all? Certainly "reversal" is incomparable to "immunity", conflicts will still arise and those irregulars will have to be stopped in order to cure them.

To simplify the above even more, X did say "nearly" one hundred years. We can thus shorten the timespan that needs to be covered to considerably less. And if all that is not enough, we could start looking at the combination of both seals to account for the near hundred years in question. As you say, the first few decades of Neo Arcadia's unstable beginnings could certainly add a bit to our total. But to say the whole near century after Neo Arcadia's founding was such a conflict? It feels quite wrong to think of the utopia as never having truly known the peace Zero sealed himself away for...

But that they take such a flippant approach to fighting could be indicative that they weren't around for the hardcore Elf Wars. Where even X needed a helping hand and combat gods like Zero and Omega roamed the Earth. It doesn't seem like they've had that overwhelmingly horrific war atrocity experience firsthand, or been humbled before by truly powerful enemies as our heroes faced in the Irregular Wars, before Zero came along. Like four big fish in a small pond, before the floodwaters broke.

Harpuia does seem to have a certain innate knowledge on the powers of Baby Elves, though. Did he experience take over before, saw the grueling atrocities they can cause or is he merely basing it all on the stories he has heard of the great war? Likewise, we must consider each their attitudes to combat. Matters such as Leviathan's boredom and Fefnir's burning desire, which exist in some form in Phantom and Harpuia too.. All of that could be born from the strong enemies they've once faced and that exist no longer. As they are still undoubtedly special as X-bioroids, they might not have been humbled by power, only by inexperience. Standing grounds in Elf Wars, rising to their status as four guardians, the ones without equal, the reappearance of Zero awakens in them that long forgotten need to fight.

RTRZ booklet suggested something like that, but it's more a matter of reconciling that with what Takuya Aizu mentioned in the interview portion.

Would you happen to have some specific statements on the matter? All I have at my immediate disposal is the biographies of the Big4, do the interviews and other shed more light on the matter?

Oh and one of these days we're going to force you to translate all of RTRZ, especially that website.

1238

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 07, 2009, 05:28:54 PM »

It's entirely possible that Wily was away on a business trip or something the entire time Proto was built and ran away. After that, he came back and helped Dr. Light build the six industrial robots and Rock.

The details are fairly clear, Wily was in exile at the time of Blues' running away. Wily helped Blues in his time of need and Blues therefore pays allegiance to Wily. At that time, Wily learned from working on Blues' systems how to reprogram Dr. Right's robots. We also have further details on how Rock and Roll were created as siblings by Dr. Right to avoid making the same mistakes as with Blues and we know they've not met Wily before the events of Rockman1. We also have details on Wily and Right's rivalry concerning the Nobel Prize, LIT manual design contest, World Engineer Grand Prix which invalidate a partnership; Wily's work is different from Right's and he's the eternal second best. And not to mention the statement that only the Rockman3 robots can specifically be considered "Right and Wily Numbers", shortened to "Wily Numbers" with the original industrial robots specifically as "Right Numbers".

Compare that to the cartoon in which we saw Wily and Right build ProtoMan.

Compare that to the US manual which leaves Blues and Roll unspecified beyond "made by Light" and outright says "MegaMan" (Should be Rock) and "6 industrial robots" were made by "Light and -assistant- Wily."

When it comes to work derivative of the Japanese sources, we naturally see less contradictions of the above sort. But the times that differences are introduced in the details are naturally unavoidable. Still, if you would compare for instance Ariga and Iwamoto. Ariga's the overall more faithful of the two.  This level of faithfulness is very much unprecedented in other work. He has truly captured the spirit and setting of Rockman.

1239

Zero / Re: Are the Big 4 technically X's children?

« on: October 07, 2009, 05:04:33 PM »

Can't we just call that the Maverick/Zero Virus?  Calling the virus in Zero (or the program, whatever) the Sigma Virus is too confusing...

No, we can't. The "Maverick Virus" is a generic term that applies to all the viruses in question. Likewise, "Zero Virus" is X5 exclusive. It's simply that we use whatever the official sources say; Sigma Virus.

I don't see what's so confusing here. The "Sigma Virus" within Zero is the very same "Sigma Virus" he was the original carrier of; that is, before the inclusion of Sigma.

And even then, the details concerning Mother Elf's relation to Sigma Virus are mostly unspecified and of questionable canon.

1240

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 07, 2009, 11:50:47 AM »

Of course, none of this is relevant to the Japanese games at all.

Which I didn't see in that post.

Do you honestly not remember the quotes preceding it?

RS also had glaring story errors, such as Light and Wily being partners,

How do you know they weren't?

Apparently, that's not what the original story for MM1 said. But I don't remember CoJ having anything to say on the matter, so it could be either, honestly.

We were comparing the RS cartoon's "glaring story errors" that occur relative to the original story from the games.

In which it's fairly clear. Wily could NOT have built Blues. Because Blues hates Right but not Wily. Had Wily created Blues, Blues would not be working for him. Likewise Wily's exile from the scientific community occurred before Rock and the others were created and him stealing the industrial robots occurs immediately precedes the events of the game. All of this invalidates the RS cartoon and the US manual its based upon.

Don't try to argue how it works within the cartoon's canon itself, the whole point is that it does not work compared to its source.

The US manuals certainly imply Wily ran off with Protowhen he went renegade.

Which is rather peculiar considering Wily was stated there to have stayed around to build Rock and the Industrial Robots. The "US" games and manuals only state Dr. Light made ProtoMan. It's only assumed that "assistant" Wily had a hand in it because he worked with Dr. Light on ProtoMan's successors. Either way, you have to somehow reason how ProtoMan ended up at Wily's whilst not being with Dr. Light at the time of his treason.

1241

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 07, 2009, 03:07:54 AM »

There's nothing wrong with it if Wily buggered off before Proto was built. >.> That's the way I remember it.

Wily buggering off before ProtoMan was built?... What are you talking about? We are comparing the cartoon with the games. ProtoMan was shown being made by Wily and Light! Likewise, he's outright said to have made the other industrial robots in the US manual! All of this is in outright contradiction with the original story of the games.

1242

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 07, 2009, 12:49:09 AM »

The story goes that Right and Wily are rivals and that Wily was exiled from the scientific community years before the first game. Likewise, the story goes that Blues hates his creator for activating him as an unfinished prototype, but he does not hate Dr. Wily, only Dr. Right.

I think it should be quite clear what's wrong with the notion of them being partners that produced Blues and the other industrial robots.

Because Ariga may have altered something about Breakman (beside the appearance), and we might not be able to tell. The problem I'm seeing here is that we don't know much about Breakman other than what can be deduced from the games, yet we're trying to "evaluate" his appearance in a manga that's not canon to the games and may have changed things around. It's like trying to write a paper for Romeo and Juliet when all you know is that Romeo had a friend named Mercutio, and your source material is the anime.

And what I'm saying is that Ariga's use of BreakMan is as valid in our evaluation of what Breakman truly is as looking into sprites that never made it into the final game. They give us insight into the ideas of people that by their profession are closely involved with the games and their story.

So everything Ariga made would be it's own canon, seperate from the game's canon.  Ditto Cap N and Ruby Spears.  All seperate.  But all canon since all of it was made through official channels.

Everything is its own internally consistent canon, that's a given. Official or unofficial, everything is canon to itself, that's just reciting the very definition of canon. What we're talking about is more on how all those separate canons relate and holds some truth about each other.

1243

Rockman Series / Re: Out of all the villains...

« on: October 06, 2009, 10:01:01 PM »

So? Doesn't mean he believes it's righteous. Wanting revenge doesn't equate to feelings of morality.

This may just be ambiguity in wording. He could 'justify' it by saying "just returning the favor", but it wouldn't be a 'this is morally acceptable' kind of justify.

What I'm saying, is that at the time of Elf Wars, he did everything for the good of all. That is why he's going on about how there's no justice in the world.

releasing a strain of the virus so powerful that it even effected organic matter

That never happened.

lost his frikken mind and tried to colonize the moon.

He didn't lose his mind, and that plan was the human's.

1244

Rockman Series / Re: Out of all the villains...

« on: October 06, 2009, 09:16:59 PM »

I recall Weil going on how much of an injustice it was for him, who was terminating Mavericks for the good of all, to be punished.

1245

Zero / Re: Are the Big 4 technically X's children?

« on: October 06, 2009, 08:44:20 PM »

He used Zero's DNA though. The Nightmare, is made from Zero's DNA. Gate's armor, is as well, and so is High Max. Not to mention Zero Nightmare which is outright a (badly made) clone.

The use of someone's "DNA" doesn't automatically make one a father. Case in point, the Zero Nightmare is defined as a "clone", not a "child."

also, how does Sigma have nothing to do with Mother Elf? she was made from his Virus.

She wasn't. She was made using data obtained from the Sigma Virus within Zero.

1246

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 06, 2009, 08:32:42 PM »

the RS-cartoon, the OVAs,

Both of those were specifically made for the American market. The RS-cartoon was written there and goes by the stories as told in the US manuals. It's automatically invalidated right there.

The OVA is a special case, though from Japan, it went with the concept of them stepping straight out of a game called "MegaMan5" into the real world of "Japan"... It doesn't take place in the game universe, and it has characters coming straight from the American games, instead of the Japanese games.

Thing is, we HAVE used the OVA in game discussion before. Specifically on the discussion on Blues/Sniper Joes and the discussion on time travel. And the scope of the discussion was pretty much where the extent of its canon value ends; it can only be used as a means to evaluate character behavior and as a means to evaluate certain prominent mechanics of the classic universe.

How do we know he's not BSing? The ordeals with Copy-Rock and the second Yellow Devil are both products of his imagination (I'm assuming), so who says this version of Breakman won't be, as well?

Why is that really relevant? We already know that Ariga's considers Remix, MegaMix and the games as three distinct canons. We already see many discrepancies in the timeline, such as Wily's actions during the second story or Rightot and Forte's mistimed appearances. All that really matters is that as a Rockman3 game adaption, it's simply something of interest to see how similar the events could play out in a different style of presentation brought by someone with such innate knowledge of the series. It is food for thought on a matter that has such limited information.

Now, if Ariga actually would explain in interview how his work is different or similar from the game, as Marshmallow just mentioned, that'd be all the better. But without that, we can think for ourselves, can't we? Most of the discrepancies with the games are blatantly obvious. We just have to carefully evaluate the presented material with an open mind.

I always figured that the mini-manga was more a part of Megamix than the game; didn't Mr. Ariga write it?

It is part of Megamix, specifically, the first chapter of the upcoming Rockman9 adaption. And we've already seen discrepancies with the game. But still, included by IntiCreates in their own soundtrack, with Ariga's work gracing the whole cover and booklet. IntiCreates allowed Ariga to help explain the concept they themselves could not deeply elaborate upon with the confines of a NES game. Ariga's work should not be degenerated to a mere cash cow that Capcom couldn't care less about.

1247

Anime & Manga / Re: Bleach (Manga Discussion Mainly)

« on: October 06, 2009, 02:52:00 PM »

Hiroki:

(click to show/hide)

The Hollow's merger with Rukia was something far less permanent than say, Metastacia with Kaien. Which is an event entirely likely to be the cause of Ichigo's powers as a Vizard, remember what Ichigo said at the end of the movie? Even if their memories vanish, their bond stays. Kaien's memories might be with Aaroniero, who absorbed Metastacia, but the heart remains somewhere else. Ichigo feels like he and Rukia might have met before their first meeting. Ichigo's Hollow powers influencing Orihime and Chad long before Urahara's Shattered Shaft trial confirm as much.

When Ichigo tried to recover her Shinigami powers, he did so to completely remove any trace of Hollow within her. You can even tell he specifically avoided use of his own Hollow's power; he used his own reiatsu instead of the Hollow's black reiatsu. Considering this Hollow was a fairly weak one, and not specifically designed for the purpose of Hollowfication, I doubt it left any lasting impression on Rukia.

1248

Rockman Series / Re: Out of all the villains...

« on: October 06, 2009, 02:22:59 PM »

There's never a villain that does things because they're "evil." All actions are solely because they think it's the thing that was needed to be done.

1249

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 06, 2009, 02:05:36 PM »

Just because Ariga says something about Breakman, doesn't mean it's canon

I would prefer it if every time the manga is brought up, people wouldn't jump on it as "non canon".  That's just beating a dead horse, saying something we already know.

In line with what Gauntlet said before, -interesting- and -canon-: I did specifically use the words "insight" and "evaluate".

As this is a gray area in the story, there's little that can be defined as "canon."  All we have to go on is one battle in which a name, a design, abilities were shown, and some sparse book statement none of us have ever seen that were given on the matter.

All we have here is our own interpretations of the events of Rockman3, that is why Ariga's stories are so important to provide us with insight to refine our views. His use of the character can validate our own ideas or bring to light new possibilities. Until we actually have a detailed canon, all we can is put to test our own opinions in comparison to the sparse facts that we have. That is what I mean "should be evaluated to the canon".

Didn't know that. >.> But I do remember those concepts for Protoman; one of them is very clearly Breakman.

There are sketches, yes. But R20 is not a plot related book. Its focus is more about the creative and production process.

Unless Capcom produces it themselves, it's not canon. I don't care how much Ariga knows about Megaman's goings-on, Megamix and Gigamix aren't canon, because Capcom only licensed it, and probably wouldn't give a doodly-[parasitic bomb] about it beyond its sales.

The Rockman 9 Arrange Soundtrack among other official Inti/Capcom releases raise considerable doubt about this statement.

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Zero / Re: Are the Big 4 technically X's children?

« on: October 06, 2009, 01:47:49 PM »

X was the father of the first-generation of Reploids, count down from there.

Dr. Cain made the first Repliroid, his supreme masterpiece; Sigma. That technology from X was employed in his creation has virtually no meaning of the sort.

also, in that regard, I guess the X6 gate creations can be considered Zero's children, since they were made from his DNA, but somehow, it doesnt feel right to do so. Cyber elves are also technically Zero's children. His and Sigma's. (I say Zero's the mother.) They were derive from the sigma virus within Zero, after all.

Where are the actual scientists that created these in your argument? Gate created his Repliroids, nobody else. Likewise, Ciel's ancestor made the Mother Elf.

You're also sorely forgetting that Cyber Elves originate from the Mother Elf first and foremost. The Sigma Virus is one step further down the line on Cyber Elf genealogy with the Cyber Elves only considered a vague derivative.
Zero has absolutely nothing to do with them, other than just being infected with the Virus in question. Sigma too has nothing do with Cyber Elves either, even less than Zero.

Sigma does refer to the new generation reploids who were built using his DNA data as "his children".
Then again, that would also make all of the old model reploids that were included with his data fathers too.

He says that because he himself interfered with the creation of the New Generation by giving them his DNA data so that they effectively become like Sigma himself. Because they were designed by him to one day awaken and become like him, irregulars of their own accord, they are his legacy, his children.