Messages

1201

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 11, 2009, 01:29:50 PM »

Still.  Because it has not been properly catagorised.  So people find this information, which you can't eleminate because it exists, and they get steered wrong.

Regarding only the Japanese sources is fine .... if all we talk about is the Japanses game continuity.  And if that's all you're interested in considering, that's fine.  That's your area of interest.

However, it's an inferior way of calaoguing continuity.  Because you are "throwing away" information.  You're not accounting for it anywhere.  And, depite it not counting towards Japanese game continuity it still exists.  The information doesn't go away because you don't want to include it or because it's silly.

Actually, what I've done for all my timelines is make clear cut notes on what the US games say, such as the different dates in Cain's journal. I haven't thrown them away, I just don't view them as important enough to influence the timeline of events; the order is determined by what is factually known in the original story, the localization changes are listed for some one else to work in if they ever so please.

1202

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 11, 2009, 04:10:24 AM »

It's a FAR superior way of cataloguing continuity than simply having one "true" continuity where we take a dash of Japanese with a smattering of American and season it with cartoon and mangas trivia.

Allow me to explain what I think is a far superior way of cataloguing continuity.  It doesn't involve dashes of and smatterings of. The "game story" is completely separate from any manga or cartoon. The game story is the same in all regions. Each region just has translations of the original. Anything that sneaks in during localization is regarded as just that; something the translators made up and is therefore not part of the game story.

1203

ZX / Re: ZX: Model's X and Z were not made from X and Zero

« on: October 11, 2009, 04:02:24 AM »

I don't know whether we should blame ourselves or Capcom for translation messing with our understanding of the canon.

This is not translation messing with out understanding, rather it can be defined as quite a few negative things with regard to the psyche of certain fans.

"Forced". Let me direct you to this word. If Ciel created Model W from scratch, now why did she have to use her research on Model W to created Biometal's Z and X? This makes no sense and doesn't follow simple logic. If Ciel was able to create W from scratch, then she should have been able to do the same for X and Z.

Albert created Livemetal Model V.

Ciel needed Livemetal Model V as a basis to create Livemetal of her own.

How does that not make sense?

No, I wouldn't designate "data" as "soul/spirit". If Ciel did have this, she would have never of created Copy X. After all, data on X from the Maverick and Elf War's was available as far back as Zero 2.

The soul is data, we're dealing with robots. The soul is a Cyber-Elf is a program is data.

To the latter, I'll remind you of a few simple facts.

-RockmanX was sealing the Dark Elf at the time.
-RockmanX was tired of fighting.
-A regular Repliroid body is significantly different from Livemetal.

I specifically remember how that conversation was extremely lacking in details.

Model H: Hmph. Those humans we fought so hard to protect hundreds of years ago have been lulled into a false sense of security by the empty promise of peace. But I still believe our fight had meaning.

Model P: It is our destiny across the ages to protect the world of Man. Let us once again become humanity's blade for striking down evil.

fanservice

Everything is fanservice, no exceptions.

Oh, is this right? And can you back this?

Seeing as how the people that made the games also made the drama tracks and book, do you even need to ask?

The burden of proof is on your end, not mine.

And Ciel created the Big 4.

She didn't. She wasn't even alive at the time. Her mother wasn't even alive at the time.

1204

ZX / Re: ZX: Model's X and Z were not made from X and Zero

« on: October 11, 2009, 03:33:46 AM »

Model's X and Z were not created from the "souls" (cyber elves) of X and Zero, but instead were made from Model W's source at the crash location of Ragnarok, by Ciel.

Prairie said tamashi, meaning soul/spirit. Livemetals are fragments containing the soul/spirits of legendary heroes. In the English game they instead used the easily confused synonym of "consciousness".

The source data/cyber elves/souls for the legendary heroes X and Zero could not be found, so the power used to created Model W was also used to create Model's X and Z.

That's not what the game said, at all.

????: Biometal Report Classification #555913 * Chosen One * This message is intended for the chosen one who will one day find the Biometal I have created. In order to fight against Model W, which has been causing the Maverick outbreaks, I have constructed Model X and Model Z with the data I have obtained on ancient heroes. There is still so much I don't understand... And I was forced to use the research on Model W as a basis for constructing the other two models. In other words, the ones with the potential to use Model X and Z, are the same ones with the potential to unleash Model W. As a chosen one, you have the power to save or destroy the world. I can only hope you use the power for good and that you will decide to guide the people to a bright future.

Specifically, she did have access to the data on Legendary Heroes, the "data" being their soul/spirit.  The one thing she did not understand were the workings of the Livemetal's R.O.C.K. system in regards to the chosen ones.

His cyber elf data was long gone before the end of Zero 4.

X is alive and well in Cyber-Elf form, and even if he wasn't, being completely dead never stopped anybody in this series from resurrecting.

Zero, nor his cyber elf, were ever found, as is shown after the credits in Zero 4.

The ZERO-series can only account for two years after the ending of ZERO4. Not one hundred years after ZERO4. Considering the original "Zero" is happily trying to kill people in Area N, that statement is flawed by default.

nor do they show any signs of having memories

I specifically recall them telling me of when they fought against that man that created Ragnarok hundreds of years ago. I also recall them saying only the memory of the time after their creation was erased.

And, no. No amount of fanservice from any Complete Works book or Soundtrack insert changes this. Why? Because it is simply fanservice. Other works such as radio-screenplays and written books do not count either. Why? Because they aren't part of the canon. Interviews with Inafune do count, however, as he is the original creator and the head of Inte Creates.

Funny how that works, the company that makes the game disagrees with this.

Oh and Inafune is neither the head nor an employee of IntiCreates.

1205

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 11, 2009, 02:53:46 AM »

Come now, drop those weapons for a moment.

I know I'm sidetracking here, but I'm seriously asking this out of interest. Not going to discredit the US canon, let us debate what it actually says and be clear on it.

Under the premise of "ancient theories/fanon", how did we ever account for Monsteropolis and robot-like humanoids? The manual statements paint a fairly weird picture in my head. Those few paragraphs seem quite easily misread and turned into exactly what this topic is about.

Just as much, I wonder which names you think of as the actual US canon. Even ignoring such issues as the weird name changes in EXE, and DASH. Within classic we've had such peculiar cases as Light vs Write, Wily vs Wiley and Rock vs Mega. How do we reconcile multiples names such as that into one concise canon? You say canon is what does not contradict, what about these oddities?

Wily being Light's assistant does not contradict.

Going back to this. I have mentioned before that I find Wily's self imposed exile after being banished from the scientific community to be rather peculiar when compared and merged with the assistant notion, but I do suppose I can not accurately pinpoint that in relation to the creation of Rock and the other industrial robots. His exile could indeed theoretically postdate that event. Touché.

Asking this as seriously as the above questions: in that US canon, Wily being Light's assistant working on MegaMan and the 6 industrial robots, was or wasn't Wily involved in Roll's creation as well?

1206

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 11, 2009, 02:30:31 AM »

Funny, the manual didn't bring the X, EXE, and ZX series into this...

Stupid translations?  That's canon.  Maybe not literal, but it's canon.  Never said it was great.  Saying it exists.

No, really, without me being rhetoric or sarcastic.. I will ask this seriously: how are we to reconcile multiple different names for the same character, which is the true canon one?

Likewise, I must seriously ask: What are robot-like humanoids and what is the land of Monsteropolis they are charge of? How does that compare to what we see in the game and especially its remake Powered Up?

1207

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 11, 2009, 02:11:14 AM »

Wait, wasn't that in the original manual? Or at least hinted at?

The name of the experimental time machine and the time institute that build it are unspecified in the original manual. Likewise, I forgot to mention in my previous post they pretty much made up the notion of "approximately 37.426 years" into the future. (Just like the names, the years were never specified.)

We can lump all  of that into the "arguments that are meant to confuse and misdirect" category.

I think the US manuals do a good job of confusing and misdirecting in itself.

Hmm.. I think I forgot to mention Monsteropolis, that strange multi-faceted land of robot-like humanoids. I remember distinctly that MegaMan, chosen defender of the universe and its inhabitants, dared to single-handedly penetrate seven separate empires of Monsteropolis, eliminating the leaders and followers of these sovereignties.

Care to explain to me what the hell I just said?...

On a much more serious note, MegaMan resisted reprogramming. I'm pretty sure Powered Up overruled the manual right then and there. MegaMan never resisted reprogramming, he was never reprogrammed to begin with, Wily had no need for a pile of scrap metal with no special abilities! Likewise, MegaMan8's manual and MegaMan4's intro seems to implicate no reprogramming of MegaMan took place either.

So between Monsteropolis that strange multi-faceted land of robot-like humanoids and MegaMan resisting reprogramming he was never subjected to, why were we to believe Wily was Light's assistant again?

I cannot wait for that Wily/Serges/Isoc theory to be dispelled. We've seen Wily's presence at work since at least X5, if you don't count Zero and believe X's imperfect coding is what caused the virus. I don't doubt that some strains of the virus would lend its hosts to behave in the same mannerisms, in a Carl Jung sort of way, as Dr. Wily. But if Serges and Isoc were in any way inhabited by Dr. Wily directly, that egomaniac would have made it known.

There's fairly little to counter the Wily/Sagesse/Isoc theory. Inafune himself said Wily was brought back by the Virus. Between what Inafune said and what Sagesse and Isoc actually did in the plot, you'd raise more plotholes saying they aren't Dr. Wily than saying that they are. For example, how can both Sagesse and Isoc do the impossible? Touch the untouchable, break the unbreakable, row row fight the power.

1208

Zero / Re: Is Zero still cool?

« on: October 11, 2009, 01:55:47 AM »

That design would be nice if Zero could feasibly move his legs...

1209

ZX / Re: Raiders = Red Alert?

« on: October 11, 2009, 01:54:29 AM »

ah, morons.

Ah, Nekomata being Nekomata.

At the time it seemed like you were making fun of how a resemblance in a logo was a direct connection, and I vaguely recalled you arguing that we couldn't be sure A was Axl.

I was arguing under the "if" condition of the Illegal Hunters being the same as Red Alert. If such a direct connection were to be established, we'd have grounds to without a doubt say Axl is Model A.

However, as it really is, the Illegal Hunters are simply a homage to Red Alert, Model A is a homage to Axl, with a high possibility of Model A actually being Axl, an undeniable connection but also not confirmable.

Model X,Z,H,P,L,F,W are never referred to explicitly contain the souls of X, Zero, Harpuia, Phantom, Leviathan, Fefnir and Weil.

Prairie said "soul" of "that man that created Ragnarok" and "soul" of "legendary heroes" that "saved the world hundreds of years ago." Japanese keyword: tamashi. However, it is true that she never quite uses their names.

So you're implying that they are not actually the big 4 and X/Zero?

He's just saying the games are purposely vague all the time.

1210

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 11, 2009, 01:45:46 AM »

But Proto's line towards the end would imply that he knew Wily was a nutter before the events of MM1/MMPU (and that he ran off before he got the shades and scarf, since Wily doesn't recognize him). That's not the same past that leads up to RMRM or MM3.

He learned Wily was a nutter at the beginning of Rockman Blues (The title screen changes from Rockman Rockman to Rockman Blues, Rockman Roll, etc.) when he viewed that broadcast. As for Blues' shades and scarf, their origins are rather unexplained, it's mostly just a style thing.

Whether or not Wily recognizes him.. as we've discussed; I believe he does. Or at the least, if he didn't recognize him immediately, it's just because he had to look twice to comprehend it was really Blues standing there. But all of this would be conjecture. Really, as this single line is an anomaly, I think we'd better ask the question of what the original Japanese script said.

in the US game canon, it's "Megaman" and "Protoman" and not "Rockman" and "Blues".

So which is it? AquaMan or SpoutMan? YamatoMan or JapanMan? Treble or Gospel? Rock or Mega? Volnutt or Voulnutt?

In this case, everything has ben additive.  Nothing has overwritten that point.

I presume all of this is true as well:

-The time institute Wily stole an experimental time machine from is called Chrono Institute.
-The experimental time machine Wily stole from the time institute is called Time Skimmer.

-MegaMan told Wily to die!
-MegaMan is more than a robot!

-Bradbury K. Wells, Times Staff Writer, reported on X's attack on the Maverick Production Facility.
-Serges was collecting Zero's parts.
-Serges was trying to achieve Zero's "unification" to fulfill a prophecy.
-Sigma should have studied the blueprints closer.

-Doppler used his Neuro Computer to prevent abnormal behavior in Reploids (even though said neuro computer is his own brain?)
-X defeated Vile years before the events of X3.
-Vile will haunt X till the day he dies.

-The galaxy is at peace after centuries of fighting the Reploid War (even though it's still 21XX, the war started several months ago and there is no peace?)
-Wily used to be X's comrade.

1211

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 10, 2009, 08:18:17 PM »

You've brought in every single game you possibly could to try and uncanonize it, but you can't.  You just can't.  Because it causes no conflict.  It seems like you're clinging to the wrong notion of it not being in continuity (in US continuity that is).

If you insist on going with something made up by localization as canon, then of course you're never going to see how it clashes with the original; you're going to make up any excuse to make it fit.

First you've tried insisting that it doesn't work within the story.  But it does well enough.  Then you say it doesn't work with Protoman's story.  But you refute your own point later by saying Wily couldn't have built Proto anyway.  Then you say it wouldn't work with the Japapanese stuff, which wasn't the point anyway.  Then you say it doesn't work with itself.  But it does.  And now you're saying it was never referenced again in the manuals or games which also is irrelevant to it being canon.

Let's reiterate what we were talking about back then:

-The RS-cartoon notion that ProtoMan was built by Wily does not work with ProtoMan's original story from the gams; the RS-cartoon does not fit with the "overall japanese canon."
-The RS-cartoon notion that ProtoMan was built by Wily is in conflict the US MM1 manual; the RS-cartoon does not fit with the "US-canon of MM1 manual's"

Neither argument refutes the former. It merely establishes all three as distinct entities. THAT is what we were talking about back then.

Then you say it wouldn't work with the Japapanese stuff, which wasn't the point anyway.  Then you say it doesn't work with itself.  But it does.  And now you're saying it was never referenced again in the manuals or games which also is irrelevant to it being canon.

What you say is irrelevant is exactly the point that IS relevant!. The US MM1 is something made up in localization. The current releases are all direct translations from the Japanese games. Those basic facts state that the MM1 manual of old and the recent releases are incompatible by definition, therefore not the same canon

No. I wasn't talking about the "player's choice"; I was talking about how Proto's story conflicts with the series.

But the only conflict is the player's choice of playing as ProtoMan. By choosing ProtoMan you have put him in a situation in which he never was. If you choose Rock, the stories continues as normal. Rockman Blues does not lead into Rockman2, but the past leading up to Rockman Blues is the same past that leads up to Rockman Rockman.

Rockman Blues
|
|
Rockman Rockman > Rockman 2 > Rockman 3
|
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Rockman > Rockman 2 > Rockman 3

Likewise:

R&F (Forte)
|
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R&F (Rock)>Rockman9

and

ZX (Aile) > ZXA (Grey)
|
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ZX (Vent) > ZXA (Ashe)

and

MHX (VAVA)
|
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MHX (X) > X2
|
|
X > X2

1212

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 10, 2009, 07:31:28 PM »

Here's the problem. The entirety of of MMPU, Proto is trying to stop Wily. Towards the end, he clearly says that he'll stop Wily's "villainy". Originally, Proto wasn't trying to stop diddly (except Light repairing him), and he didn't know Wily was a bad guy.

Thus, Proto's scenario in MMPU does not match up with the rest of the series.

I believe I've already explained this:

The difference is that by witnessing Wily's broadcast, Blues learned of Wily's true character as early as that. But, Blues never did listen to Wily's broadcast, therefore he followed Wily, unaware of his true character, until the incident in which Kalinka was kidnapped.

Within Rockman Rockman it was the player's choice to have either Blues, Rockman or anyone else to listen to that broadcast; according to the story of Rockman3, it was Rockman who did. Therefore Blues remained blissfully ignorant of Wily's true character. (The broadcast in question is mentioned in the MM8/R8 manual as the time Rock found out about Wily's intent.)

Do I really need to draw a complicated timeline diagram explaining how "Rockman Blues" works? It's the same way as "Rockman Elecman" and "Rockman Roll" operate.

The player's choice determines the circumstances of the story. The sequels determine what the player should have chosen. That is the explanation in its simplest form.

I think a more normal reaction would be more like, "What are you doing here?", not "WHO ARE YOU?" That implies that he doesn't recognize Proto at all.

If he even said "Who are you" in the Japanese script. I'm willing to wager that he actually noted his surprise in a a lot more ambiguous matter.

Really, given all the both RR and the whole of the classic series established, do you not think the "Who are you?"  line is in question instead of everything else?

1213

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 10, 2009, 06:49:18 PM »

Everything you mentioned up to this just sounds like a giant continuity headache on the fault of Capcom (on both sides of the pond).

I don't see how it's a continuity headache at all.. It's as Atomic Fire's encyclopedia states. (That is what they found out by looking at the classic R1~8 sources from before RR's release.) Wily finds Blues, changes the reactor from solar to nuclear and equips him with weapons. This happens before the first game as Wily uses the obtained knowledge to reprogram Right's robots with ease.

All of Rockman Rockman agrees with this except a simple "Who are you?" question Wily asked upon first seeing him. Either a completely normal reaction to not excepting to see Blues there, or a rejection of Blues as his partner.

If he knows that Wily is a bad guy this early in the timeline, how can he be working with Wily in MM3? It makes no sense.

The difference is that by witnessing Wily's broadcast, Blues learned of Wily's true character as early as that. But, Blues never did listen to Wily's broadcast, therefore he followed Wily, unaware of his true character, until the incident in which Kalinka was kidnapped.

Within Rockman Rockman it was the player's choice to have either Blues, Rockman or anyone else to listen to that broadcast; according to the story of Rockman3, it was Rockman who did. Therefore Blues remained blissfully ignorant of Wily's true character. (The broadcast in question is mentioned in the MM8/R8 manual as the time Rock found out about Wily's intent.)

(And who says Proto isn't just talking about the weapons he's acquired from the other bosses?)

Blues does not take weapons from the boss robots in Rockman Rockman. He's only done so in the Arcade games and Rockman9. Therefore, he is not talking about that. He's talking about something Wily had done to him preceding the events of Rockman Rockman; giving him his nuclear core and supplying him with weapons.

So you don't take "Who are you?" at face value but you do take "their robot" as such.  You have a strange double standard.  After this it seems even more clear that we're arguing your own personal canon against Wily being Light's assistant.

Narration has to be taken at face value, characters do not. The narration does not have reasons to say anything but the undeniable truth, the narration has no reason to be influenced by circumstance, the narrator is not a character.

1214

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 10, 2009, 06:10:23 PM »

It is not. Proto has that unstable nuclear core before Wily met him; in the original games, it was a solar reactor that was messing him up.

I think you got that in reverse. The mentioned "unstable nuclear core" is the one Wily gave to Blues. Light originally built him with the solar one.

Here's the excerpt from HeatMan and Delta's research into what the classic books say about Blues:

Upon Proto Man's completion, Dr. Light realized there was a flaw in Proto Man's power generator and wanted to repair it. Proto Man seemingly misunderstood Dr. Light's intentions, fleeing the lab believing the operation would destroy his individuality.

Proto Man remained isolated over time as the flaw in his power generator grew worse. But just before he would have ceased functioning, he was found by Dr. Wily. Dr. Wily replaced his solar energy power generator with an atomic power generator. He also modified Proto Man to have battle capabilities.

----

Proto Man, serving Dr. Wily, attacked Mega Man on various occasions under the identity of Break Man. Due to the nature of his atomic power generator he could only battle for short periods of time.

I don't remember there being any evidence that the two had met before.

Taking into account the above;

---ProtoMan: When you attack me, watch out for my unstable nuclear core... One big shock and we're both vapor, I'd say.---

ProtoMan made clear cut mention of a piece of hardware he given by Wily. This is once again reflected in the following passage:

---ProtoMan: It's always been on my mind...what it means to be born with weapons in our hands. I haven't found the answer yet, but with the powers you've given me, I will crush your villainy.---

And the narration clearly specifies ProtoMan's being born with weapons as after the creation of humanoid industrial robots:

---The year 20XX. With the advancement of science, humans were able to create industrial humanoid robots. Then suddenly, a robot with built-in weapons made for combat was also developed...---

Which MegaMan agrees with, to his knowledge, there's no robot made for combat that precedes the creation of the Yellow Devil:

---MegaMan: This is a first! A robot made for combat?! Well, you're going to have to get out of my way!---

Yet ProtoMan is the first humanoid robot ever created. This apparent contradiction is only explained by Wily having worked on ProtoMan's "rebirth".

That Wily is well aware of who ProtoMan is, is also reflected in the following:

---Wily: I have no need for a robot that won't take orders! Nuhahahahah...---

"A robot that won't take orders", that is very much how ProtoMan described himself:
 
---ProtoMan: Robots are machines that follow orders. I'm a machine that doesn't, so what does that make me?---

Wily wouldn't have said that line unless he was well aware of his origins. He says similar things to all the others, rejecting them for certain quirks in their design and personality.

So, Wily knows exactly who ProtoMan is. ProtoMan is equipped with a power core Wily gave him. ProtoMan is equipped with weapons Wily gave him. ProtoMan acknowledges all of this.

Finally, I believe I mentioned before that the Japanese sourcebooks postulated the possibility that the only reason why Wily could so easily reprogram Dr. Light's robots was because of the knowledge he had obtained from having worked on ProtoMan's systems at the time he changed his solar core to a nuclear core.

Given all of the above, how can it be that Wily and ProtoMan never met?

Light's rival could have become his assistant.  There is no discontinuity.  You're creating a fuss over it, but it's just not there.

You know, you're looking for an outright statement: Wily was not Dr. Light's assistant!

Why would such a statement exist?

Why would the writers go to great lengths to disprove a notion that's not part of their story to begin with? We all know the original manual for Rockman1 did not speak of Wily as Light's assistant. So it's only natural that any and all subsequent materials that are not subject to the exact same treatment as the MegaMan1 manual, will not address the matter at hand.

Why are you clinging to "Wily is Light's assistant" as part of some region specific canon when none of the later games acknowledge that fact? Literally all of the later games have chosen to keep the "Japanese canon" as its story. The very fact that they did not keep up with consistently adding: "Wily was Light's assistant" into their manuals state that they've discarded the notion.

Powered Up is simply the final nail in the coffin as it is a remake of "MegaMan1" that just as many of the other sources disregards the Wily assistant story of favor of Wily as the exiled rival.

If the story was "US canon" they would have once again changed their manual to reflect it; they didn't.

In that regard, your "US canon" is actually "EU/German canon" as I recall hearing from BTD/Saber that the German manual for Powered Up did re-include the notion.

And well, that's just plain silly. The assistant notion is just something made up by people in charge of localization. There is no region specific canon, it doesn't exist; there is only the story that the original writers themselves wrote before we went through the process of translation/localization.

The originals can be fan-mistranslated or differently interpreted, though (remember Mr. Shin mentioning "Yakasa"?). And, yeah, errors in localization are annoying, but apart from those in the X series, I don't think any of them have been large enough to care about.

I consider making up whole pieces of story about Wily as Light's assistant as a error big enough to be cared about. Likewise to MegaMan telling Wily to go die and that he's more than robot, likewise to ProtoMan telling MegaMan they both have the same creator.

Those changes give completely the wrong impression than the original story.

And yes, the X-series is even worse.

1215

ZX / Re: Raiders = Red Alert?

« on: October 10, 2009, 03:49:25 PM »

Ah...sarcasm.

That wasn't sarcasm.

1216

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 10, 2009, 03:36:16 PM »

Megaman's scenario is the only one that doesn't violate the main series canon;

Proto's is incredibly screwed up in relation to the rest of the series (and I imagine that's not the localization's fault), so it doesn't matter what the past was like.

Rockman and Forte, RockmanX2, RockmanX4, RockmanX5 and RockmanX6 each have a multitude of events that do not happen in the timeline. They are the exact same way as Rockman Rockman's alternate events. All of these events happened as a result of player interference. Though all of it shares a mutual past, the future can no longer take the same course as the sequels, yet all those events are indisputably canon.

Case in point, Forte could never have faced Wily in Rockman and Forte; Rockman did. X could never have fought Zero because Zero fought his copy. RockmanX4 is still highly questionable in regards to who did what; neither of the stories have been proven to be wholly true. RockmanX5 can't have Zero awaken because X still remembers Zero in X6. In RockmanX6, the events where Zero are not found can't happen because of the events of RockmanX7 demanding Zero returned during X6. How is all that any different from what Rockman Rockman does?

The story of "Rockman Blues" is not at all messed up with the story of the rest of the series. All revealed backstory is in agreement with the events preceding the first game. The same holds true for "Rockman Roll", "Rockman Elecman" and the other alternate stories from that game. I don't see how it can be denied that Blues and Wily met before Rockman Rockman; he says so himself. Wily's words at the beginning of the game are not to be taken at face value; upon seeing Blues there, he has decided to break his bonds with Blues because Blues is a robot that can't take orders, therefore he acts like he doesn't know him.

Wily being Light's assistant does not mean he is his co-creator

US game continuity is all the games.  That means manuals and game intros.  I won't even go into MM&B, MM8, or whatever else you think is anomalous .... this is about Wily being Light's assistant.

For the record, the first game's manual treats Wily as both assistant and co-creator. Even though Light gets the most credit, MegaMan is still "their" first robot.

If you would look at the ingame mentions in MM4, MM&B, you would notice that all of them ignore the MM1 manual. The story of "Rock/MegaMan being made by Light" is different from "Rock/MegaMan being made by Light and Wily." You might also notice that "MetalMan" is the first robot Wily created, not "Rock/MegaMan".

Then there's what the manuals say; Rock himself was Light's "assistant" according to the Megaman and Bass manual. That same manual says Wily was Light's classmate at robot engineering school and they became rivals in their professional life. MM8's manual says roughly the same thing; both emphasize Rock/MegaMan is solely made by Light, and both emphasize Wily is Light's rival. Wily's very own MM8 biography sets himself as someone that's on a quest to become the greatest designer because as far back as their time at the "Robot Institute of Technology", Light got all the attention and accolades.

Frankly, all sources after MM1 disagree with the notion of Wily as Light's assistant.

Really, all the games are and should be seen as translations of the original games. Any deviation between the translation and original should be disregarded as part of the canon solely because subsequent games do not take into account errors in localization. Though, if you're so intend on following errors in localization, I suppose you also see Wily as X's comrade just because Sigma said so.

1217

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 10, 2009, 12:05:02 AM »

Just because the first game's event can't happen in the exact same manner doesn't mean that the past leading up to isn't the exact same. It's no different from the player's choice of letting Zero awaken in X5, getting the Z-saber in X3 or not retrieving all of Zero's parts in X2.

Likewise, it's very very comparable to choosing to play as Vent/Aile and Grey/Ashe in the ZX-series. As the developers explained there; "same world, different story." Both exist, are chosen ones, work at Giro Express, but when the assignment came in by chance Vent is brought along instead of Aile or by chance Aile is brought along instead Vent. The past is the exact same until the moment the player takes control and chooses one over the other.

For the sequels, the ZX-series has chosen to go with both scenarios; those who chose Aile also chose Grey, those who chose Vent also chose Ashe. The classic series has simply decided that it continues its story from the story of Rock, instead of for instance the story of Roll. The same reasoning is applied to such oddities as X or Zero in X4, Rockman or Forte in R&F, VAVA mode in IHX, etc.

1218

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 09, 2009, 11:44:08 PM »

I doubt that. "Who are you? I have no need for a robot that won't take orders" sounds more like Wily doesn't think that weird robot would take his orders rather than mockery, to me.

The very same story refers to Blues' nuclear power core and to stopping Wily's villainy with the powers he had given him.

Blues was not built by Light with a nuclear core; originally he had a Right Solar Pile power core, the same as Rock. The nuclear core he has in Rockman Rockman is a change Wily himself had done to his systems when he repaired Blues. That Wily tampered with Blues' systems to this extend in an effort to fix his power system defect is related to the powers he was given by Wily with which he will stop his villainy. Just look at his statement of "being born with weapons in his hands". It's said that after the industrial robots were created, a robot with built in weapons was also suddenly made. This robot is Blues, the original humanoid robot. The original humanoid, yet made with built-in weapons after the industrial robots were developed? The conclusion to all of this; Blues was reborn by Wily with weapons built into him.

In relation to this, the sourcebooks have also postulated that it's possible that because of Wily having worked on Blues, he knows how to reprogram Right's industrial robots. There are thus clear cut hints that this aspect of Blues' backstory occurs before the first game, Rockman Rockman reflects this by giving us valuable insight into that timeframe and in doing so established that Blues' rebirth by Wily was after Right's creation of the industrial robots.

Besides, Proto's scenario in MMPU/RMRM is an AU (Rock was taken as well), so what does it matter?

All of Rockman Rockman's alternate scenarios abide by a single common past until the moment of the game's beginning. Everything revealed in that story is a testimony to Blues before the events of the first game and therefore reveals a great deal about him in regards to his motivations in the events of Rockman3.

1219

Rockman Series / Re: Out of all the villains...

« on: October 09, 2009, 08:29:40 PM »

There would be no Dark Elf were it not for Sigma's work. 

I do not consider such arguments to be valid. This also includes Flame's Z1 and Z2 argument for Dr. Vile. There is ALWAYS a preceding force of evil that lead us to the present day, that does not make the predecessor a greater evil. We could also trace back the flow of time to Dr. Wily and to the dawn of history itself. It'd be pointless to talk about that. Consider them in what they actively did, which for Dr. Vile, does include his continuous evil presence as Model V. But for Sigma, his Sigma Virus does not; the Repliroid known as Sigma had already died by that time.

But then again, how many times has Weil conceived to physically destroy the entire planet?  Humans, reploids, nature; everything?

Rockman Zero 4.

1220

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 09, 2009, 08:22:02 PM »

Wily says "who are you?"  While he does say Protoman doesn't take orders, he wouldn't be asking who he was to begin with.  Not if he knows who he is.  It looks like Proto's missing a line of dialogue there, but Wily does not recognise him.  But even if he does ....

Wily was mocking him. They both recognize each other clearly.

Then your point of contention about Protoman resenting Wily is moot anyway and I'm not entirely sure why you brought it up.

As you may recall we were, as a result of Gonzo's remark on the cartoon, talking about applying the RS-cartoon's Wily made ProtoMan notion to the games. The contradiction that would arise with applying it to the "games" is that ProtoMan would hate Wily as much as Light and therefore not work for him. That is, when you evaluate it compared to Powered Up, which was as much released in the US as any other game.

Outside of Powered Up, there's no contradiction with any other "game" because the "games" only say Light did it, leaving Wily's possible involvement unaccounted for. Now, if you were to compare the very same Wily made ProtoMan notion to the "manual", and evaluate the statements there as nitpickingly literal; Wily and Light's cooperation first created MegaMan, therefore none can precede it.

It depends on the approach; if we regard Powered Up as overruling the US canon of old, the ProtoMan does not hate Wily contradiction shows why the RS cartoon is incorrect nowadays. If we take the cartoon with the very manual its based on, the MegaMan was first contradiction shows why the RS cartoon was never correct to begin with.

I dunno what you're talking about, but I'm talking about Wily being Light's assistant not really being a problem in the US continuity.

You might want to define what the "US continuinity" is. Because as far as I'm concerned, said US continuinity is either solely MM1's manual, which has sorely been overruled by MM4, MM8, MM&B and MMPU. Or we take all the games, Powered Up included.

And like I said, taking solely MM1 and its manual as a distinct canon, of course there's no contradiction. There are no other sources.

Taking all the games, the "US canon" automatically becomes the "Japanese canon" as the US canon is and always will be just a translation.

I just said I didn't advocate mixing canons.  But, let's enter the world of fanon and  mix them anyway.  Since you insist.

I was replying to the Great Gonzo who wanted to know what the original sources said.

1221

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 09, 2009, 06:15:07 PM »

I think Gauntlet has it right, here; the way you describe Wily does sound more like how you see him rather than how he actually is. Did the original games or sourcebooks ever say anything about Wily other than "he's a mad scientist who wants to take over the world, better stop him"?

The books clearly emphasize Wily's achievements as nominee of the Nobel Prize, runner up of the world engineer grand prix and four year consecutive runner up of the LIT manual design contest; Light got the Nobel Prize and Light won all other things in which Wily became second. The story further establishes Wily's rivalry with Light as his one motivation in life and what he attempted to accomplish by stealing Light's robot was revenge. A revenge he had been planning for the many years he has been in exile.

Outside of their mutual time in Robot University, where they both obtained their PhDs, Wily has always set himself as Light's eternal rival in the field of science. Outside of any hidden agenda or legally forced cooperation (as with R3, RnF and SAR), Wily's not likely to work with Light. And all the times he has, he has worked with him as Light's equal, never as his assistant.

And as faithful as you say RMRM is, there's one small problem with the ending: all of Light's robots (assuming you only used the Megabuster on them) are standing there waiting for you. Except that in other games, Light's robots are trying to kill you (like in the arcade games). Without the possibility of reprogramming or clones, what the hell went wrong there?

It should be clear that Wily often successfully recaptures and reprograms the robots in question. Likewise, Rockman manages to return them to their senses each time. That is why they would assist Rockman during the events of Super Adventure and Battle and Chase but stand in opposition to him during the World and Arcade games, as well as the events of Rockman8.

1222

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 09, 2009, 04:01:02 PM »

So .... in your opinion, stealing Light's robots and later making his own army doesn't constitute stepping out of that role? 

Remember that we're talking about how the supposed "region" canon is different from the "other region" canon.

If you compare the bare bones presentation of solely the first three games, then of course it works. But when compared to the whole series as its presented now, it does not.

That Wily steals Light's robots and takes over the world is not the point, he does that no matter how you cut it. But what's simply contradictory is comparing the notion of Wily as Light's assistant that worked on the industrial robots with the rival Dr. Wily that was exiled from the scientific community.

The story as it exists todays sets Wily up to be be a rival. A rival whose own research is consistently second best to Light's work. At some point, Wily's shunned and exiled from the scientific community due to the increasingly questionable morality of his work. After years of exile he returns to have his revenge on Dr. Light and the scientific community by reprogramming his robots and taking over the world.

This is a lot different from the assistant explanation in which Wily would work on the exact same research. But Wily turned disloyal and felt that taking over the world by reprogramming their robots was the way to go.

If we're to compare the two. Contradictions become immediately clear. One of them is that a Wily in exile could not have worked officially on the industrial robots. Delving deeper into the exact wordings of the manual also establishes that Wily has no other motive than "taking over the world." It's also emphasized that "their" first humanoid robot is MegaMan. The later introduced "ProtoMan" is therefore not a joint creation.

It's a retcon and therefor anomalous by it's very definition. 

Powered Up is solely a grandiose retcon to the "US canon" of "MegaMan1", it is largely faithful to that which in the "Japanese canon" has been established long ago. If you're not going to take the newest localized releases as fact, you effectively reduce your "US canon" to the point where the localization crew stopped completely rewriting the game in question. That is, almost exclusively the first game.

Wily didn't recognise him in that game.

I think you really need to replay Powered Up again. Wily did recognize ProtoMan and ProtoMan recognized Wily. Wily quite clearly emphasizes ProtoMan is a robot that does not follow orders and ProtoMan quite clearly puts emphasis on the power Wily had given him. Wily's question at the start of the game is not a serious one, he's simply mocking ProtoMan.

So, in other words, Wily activated an incomplete robot even in the Japanese game continuity.  So that's pretty much what I thought.

I think you misunderstand the situation. Light activated the unfinished ProtoMan. That ProtoMan was dying because of Light's mistakes. Wily attempted to fix whatever it was that troubled Blues with the best of his ability. Wily saved his life, Light put it in danger. That Wily was incapable of completely eliminating the defect in question is not something ProtoMan would see as foul play. Maybe it was, but that's not something he would realize until after learning Wily's true character.

The US manual says "assistant".  Not "co-creator".  And it doesn't even say in what capacity he assisted Light in.  It doesn't mention when he became Light's assistant (it just had to be before all six robots were finished).  ALL of that is pure speculation by the fans.  Your points of contention are all against your own speculation.

There is a difference between a lab assistant and a co-creator.  A very big difference.

Edit: By the way, in regards to the implication that Wily stole Proto witht he other MM1 robots; it's implied in that it's the only opportunity he had in the US continuity.  It was popularised by the RS cartoon.  However I hasten to note that that is NOT an official explanation for the US games.  It could very well have happened as it did in the Japanese continuity.

And as I pointed out above, I do believe that the US canon story in question does not allow for the possibility of Wily making ProtoMan. "MegaMan" was their first and they then proceeded to make six industrial robots.

ProtoMan's creator is only mentioned as Dr. Light in MegaMan3 and you're not going to find a decent mention of Roll until MegaMan4, in which "MegaMan" was changed to "Rock". After the first game, mention of Wily working on MegaMan/Rock have completely vanished, only Light is stated in such games as MegaMan4, MegaMan8, MegaMan and Bass.

1223

X / Re: X8. I didnt like it all that much.

« on: October 09, 2009, 02:50:45 PM »

"Use previous data" is your best friend in X6.  Saves plenty of time.

There's no guarantee someone saves every single time they return to the stage select.

1224

X / Re: X8. I didnt like it all that much.

« on: October 09, 2009, 02:49:21 AM »

Extra lives in X5/6 stand for the passage of time till one could potentially reach the stage select again.

1225

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 09, 2009, 02:47:29 AM »

The first is not a problem at all but is the a BIG reason for his desire to dominate the world in the US series.  Or, at least it's implied to be a big reason since the manuals don't go deeply into it.    But every secondary source that goes into Wily's character is based around the fact that Wily hated being second bannanna.  You can really hate being second best while actually being second best.  It's not a contradiction or a problem.

The problem is not that he's "second bannanna", he's that regardless of the story you follow. Rather that he's not actively trying to step out of that is a big difference. Wily being confined to working with Light as superior instead of trying to exceed him with something of his own, that is what's odd.

The second point also is not a real problem because Proto's resenting of Light and the reasons for it isn't really covered in the US series; that's the Japanese series. 

In more recent times, MegaMan Powered Up is not part of the US series? Surely, for those that followed said US canon, it's a retcon of massive proportions, but that's how it is nowadays. It too has been localized with respect to the US series of the past. The infamous "Mega" name change and the tribute line "Blue Bomber" are a result of that.

So, how did Wily stumble upon Protoman in the Japanese series that didn't incur his wrath?

According to that story, Wily had no involvement in Blues' creation. But when Blues ran away from Dr. Right, his defect eventually caused him to break down. Wily discovered the broken down Blues and succeeded in repairing him. From that point on, Blues owes Wily his life and therefore helped the doctor until he discovered his true nature.