Messages

1101

Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 08, 2009, 04:29:21 PM »

0th Law, Gauntlet.

1102

Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 08, 2009, 04:03:01 PM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQGazDqUQWs&amp;feature=related" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQGazDqUQWs&amp;feature=related</a>

Megaman guns Wily out of the [tornado fang]ing sky, there's where! 

What's my point?  It's a plot hole, and a pretty big one, that's my point.

HOLD IT!

-It's a plothole- is NEVER the answer.

You speak of X1 as an anomaly. But weren't you the one that went on about not ignoring any detail about the continuity? It's there and it applies. Trying to act like it's a plothole gets you nowhere. Only when you're open minded enough not to immediately discard it can you see what's truly going on.

Also, did you just miss the essence of my previous post? I said they can seemingly break the rules easily. They're just not intended by their creators to go around doing so all the time. They're good robots with a conscience, not robots built for war.

These robots function within preprogrammed ideas of right and wrong. Right and wrong far exceeds the three rules, but still includes them. It's wrong for robots to harm humans, it's wrong for humans to harm humans, but they still do. The three rules of robotics that exists in Rockman are akin to the 10 commandments for humans. Different from Asimov's interpretation of literal coded commands that can not be denied; Rockman chooses to incorporate the three rules in a much more roundabout method that allows for free will to come into existence by stretching the rules in an almost human-like fashion.

And even if we were to apply a literal interpretation of the rules of robotics as Asimov intended, your entire argument falls flat by virtue of the 0th law.

..humankind would tremble with fear the like of which was unknown even in the days of the “Dr. Wily” incidents…

1103

Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 08, 2009, 02:20:34 PM »

A human being put in harm's way by a robot in the classic MM series.  One of many examples.  MM shoots Wily out of the sky in this one. 

Now I'll be the one quoting myself:

It's not that Asimov's three rules of robotics don't apply to Rockman/MegaMan, it's just that they don't apply in the same way as Asimov uses them; instead of being literally coded into a robot, they're rules that are kept in mind when making robots.

Asimov's rules practically apply, except not in the same way as Asimov!

Robots can harm humans, robots can disobey humans, robots can end their own existence. But they're not meant to be. In other words, they're rules that the creator follows when creating their robots, they're not coded commands.

Right programs them to be robots that do no harm to humans, Right programs them to obey and work for humans, Right programs them to enjoy life and preserve it.

Dr. Thomas Right programs his robots to have free will whilst trying to avoid breaking those rules at the same time; he is not trying to create disobedient robots, he's not trying to create homicidal robots and he's not trying to create suicidal robots.

However, just because he and everyone else doesn't intend them to, doesn't mean that they can't. And it surely doesn't make them more than what Right always intended for them.

Blues is specifically programmed to be as independent as possible; he's programmed to have free will. Therefore, he's the first of his kind to work differently. Rock and others use that same basic programming but adjusted to avoid another repeat of that incident. Blues himself even reflected on the matter of himself the only robot that truly stands in opposition to the second rule:
"Robots are machines that follow order, then what does that make me?"

The simplest of robots all follow the three rules pretty strictly before they are reprogrammed by Wily. They're hardworking autonomous robots that can not think outside of the boundaries of their programming. Blues and the other robots are programmed in a completely different manner, and follow those rules in a completely different manner. But they still follow them, one way or the other.

However, of course they can shoot at Wily piloted machines to save the world, of course they can ignore orders from a mad scientist, of course they can sacrifice their lives for the sake of a friend. If they weren't capable of that, Right's robots would be nothing more than tools instead of actual characters, people, children, friends. They were always meant to have free will. And they were always meant to follow the rules of robotics because those rules are nothing more than common sense.

You speak of X1 as an anomaly. But weren't you the one that went on about not ignoring any detail about the continuity? It's there and it applies. Trying to act like it's a plothole gets you nowhere. Only when you're open minded enough not to immediately discard it can you see what's truly going on.

Besides, even if you don't like the way the game itself words it, there's more than one version of that warning that shows the amount of thought they put behind it. Most other versions of that scene are much more elaborate and therefore are a much better indiciation of the true meaning of Right's words.

“X” presents many problems inconceivable in existing robots. There is a danger he may worry over or question even the absolute requirement for robots, “Do not harm a human.”

The act of worrying in “X” marks a new epoch in robotics and is the first time this experiment has succeeded, but if it extends to matters that by their nature must not be questioned, it would be disastrous. In the worst case, if a robot were to harm humans deliberately, humankind would tremble with fear the like of which was unknown even in the days of the “Dr. Wily” incidents…

The difference between X's worrying (Suffering Circuit, Kunou Kairo) and Rock's conscience (Conscience Circuit, Ryoshin Kairou) should be as clear as day; To be able to determine right and wrong for oneself, that which Dr. Right himself says in Power Battle robots can not do yet. That which he himself says robots must learn in order to become truly happy.

Let's reverse my wording; Right says that robots can not determine right and wrong for themselves. Right implicates that robots themselves can not determine such things as the three rules of robotics; it is something they have to be told. Right also says X is the only robot that can truly determine this for himself. However, simply mentioning the three rules is an oversimplification if there ever was one; right and wrong extends to many things that the three rules simply do not cover. Those other factors taken into consideration form a robot's conscience, and allow free will.

Either way, Power Battle, that right there is a classic game outright mentioning the facts that tie together both series and the infamous warning sequence, so where do you come from saying it's a plothole and there's simply no practical application?

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Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 08, 2009, 03:52:56 AM »

If that were true, all robots in the entire series would be indiscriminately harming humans.

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Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 08, 2009, 03:03:26 AM »

"I don't see any evidence of Asimov's rules practically applied in the classic MM universe"

Programming all his robots to be good robots IS the practical application of Asimov's rules here.

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Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 08, 2009, 02:36:54 AM »

Edit:
No, no ... least I be drawn into another debate.  I'll just leave it at a vague, "I don't see any evidence of Asimov's rules practically applied in the classic MM universe" and leave it at that.  Other people can debate all they like.

What, you don't think your own robots indiscriminately starting to harm humans is a bad thing that robot designers should avoid at all costs?

Light sure as hell ain't making robots for them to go and do that.

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ZX / Re: Who exactly created the Biometals?

« on: November 08, 2009, 01:37:06 AM »

It could be canon, it could not be. Either way, it has no impact on the story...

Flammole begs to differ.

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Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 08, 2009, 01:34:18 AM »

Took two months to correct me on that.  You guys are slipping.

Of course, MM still shoots directly at Wily in every single MM game he's ever in.  And causes the vehicle he's in to explode.  Which pretty clearly puts Wily in harms way.  So, Asimov's rules FAIL in the MM universe. 

I'm more surprised why nobody jumped on Turian for Necromancy before that.

And really, it's not that Asimov's three rules of robotics don't apply to Rockman/MegaMan, it's just that they don't apply in the same way as Asimov uses them; instead of being literally coded into a robot, they're rules that are kept in mind when making robots.

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Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 07, 2009, 07:11:33 PM »

Anyhow, even if the rule in the MM universe is "no robot can kill a human" Asimov's rule is "no robot can harm a human".  So it doesn't follow Asimov any way you slice it.

"X" IS THE FIRST OF A NEW
GENERATION OF ROBOTS WHICH
CONTAIN AN INNOVATIVE NEW
FEATURE - THE ABILITY TO
THINK, FEEL AND MAKE THEIR
OWN DECISIONS. HOWEVER THIS
ABILITY COULD BE VERY DAN-
GEROUS. IF "X" WERE TO BREAK
THE FIRST RULE OF ROBOTICS,
 "A ROBOT MUST NEVER HARM
A HUMAN BEING", THE RESULTS
WOULD BE DISASTROUS AND I
FEAR THAT NO FORCE ON EARTH
COULD STOP HIM.

1110

ZX / Re: Who exactly created the Biometals?

« on: November 07, 2009, 01:38:19 PM »

I don't see how you can deny Model O's canon status, Flammole mentioned sensing a very strong Livemetal that he initially believed to be Vent/Aile's. Upon his death he realized it wasn't them he sensed, and he wonders if it was Model V or something else.

ZX Tunes outright says it was not Model V, but that what he actually sensed was a given.

Not to mention, Area N exists solely for the challenge to obtain the mysterious stone. Are you going to pronounce a whole area non-canon?

And besides, the Street Fighter moves in X1 and X2 are canon. Right was a practitioner of martial arts/maybe ansatsuken and X can use chi to throw fireballs because his soul is nearly human.

1111

X / Re: Robot Prejudice: Has this been explored in the X series?

« on: November 07, 2009, 12:40:12 AM »

But they are. As you describe later on in your post, there have been hostile Repliroids in the X-Series who could be considered regular criminals instead of world-threatening terrorists, but were still branded Irregulars. While the term may have been used for out-of-control Repliroids at the beginning of the Irregular epidemic, it soon expanded and was used for every criminal Repliroid. I believe X7's opening directly states that all criminal Repliroids are known as "Irregulars", not just the world-destroying ones like Sigma.

Marino is a criminal, a thief, but she is not an Irregular. That alone shoots down that notion.

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Original / Re: Youtube Debate MM2 or MM3 (Timeline Updated)

« on: November 05, 2009, 11:39:54 PM »

What you mean the theme of the whole [tornado fang]ing series?

Rockman2's title screen music is THE theme of Rockman. Being his theme song in Marvel vs Capcom, just as Roll has Kaze yo Tsutaete. It's the most recognizable piece of music that represents him.

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Original / Re: Youtube Debate MM2 or MM3 (Timeline Updated)

« on: November 05, 2009, 11:36:34 AM »

Also, discussion over indeed. I liked 3's music better really. I swear, Ive heard Wily stage 1 from 2 SO many times, it is so overused, and over remixed, (almost all of which sound exactly the same) that I hate hearing it. 3's music never seems to get old though. especially that Wily stage 2.  That and Sparkman are my favorite tracks.

I believe that's simply a testimony of how much people like to remix 2's music over 3's. Though, IMO, the only true remix of Rockman2's Wily Stage1 is Capcom's official Rock remix.

Anyway, a place where 2 beats 3 by miles is the fact that the game has an actual prologue, complete with text visuals and music. That scene is amongst THE best in the whole series and is what gave birth to Rockman's own theme song. For all people preferring Wily Stage 1, I don't think it actually beats Rockman2's title music.

1114

Original / Re: Youtube Debate MM2 or MM3

« on: November 04, 2009, 03:45:47 PM »

Weren't you just complaining about a single weapon not being useful enough?

There's a big difference between being useful and being mandatory. Ice Wall is too forced upon the player that chooses Rockman, whereas it's useless with Forte. Not to mention that its role should by tradition be given to Rush or another non boss ability.

Furthermore, I never said I wanted a return of the broken Metal Blade. There should not be a single all purpose Special Weapon; all weapons should be balanced, multi-functional and efficient.

I'll say that I was never too impressed with MM2's weapons.  Sure, Metal Blades make MM into a GOD.  The rest aren't that awsome, IMHO.  they have their place, but ... I've never been overly impressed with them.  Speed gamers who can do tricks witht hem impress me even more because of this point of view, but that's how I sees it.

I think it's mostly that I feel a few of 3's weapons could stand to have some additional improvements. Spark Shock for instance, is the visually least impressive electric weapon in the entire series. It either could have used better sprites, or fired more than a single projectile or should have had the ability to aim.

That reminds me, is there actually a proper use of the Spark Shock? It stuns enemies, still allows for contact damage and unlike Ice Slasher, does not allow one to switch to another weapon. Most minor enemies are better off just being shot with the buster, and most bigger stronger enemies can't be cleared by jumping... Where is using it a particularly useful practice? MegaMan1's Ice Slasher was quite useful for taking care of Big Eye's, but there are none in 3...

Then we have Shadow Blade... It probably removed a little too much of Metal Blade's infinite usefulness, either it should have had more distance, or had the ability to fire downward, but not both. I admit, though, it's tough to balance a weapon such as this without falling into the same pitfall as the Metal Blade.

I also find it noticeable that none of the weapons can pass through enemies. Some of the weapons, like Search Snake or Gemini Laser, could have surely benefited from going through enemies that were weak enough to be destroyed in a single hit.

Of course, with Gemini Laser, that opens up a whole new can of worms in that you can't fire again until the first shot vanishes... it's a powerful weapon (more powerful than Hard Knuckle...) but should have had a way to cancel it, or allowed for more than a single attack on screen. It is a great weapon, granted you don't miss a single shot.

Hard Knuckle just needed less firing delay, and perhaps more damage (why does Gemini Laser exceed it?..). Needle Cannon does its thing well enough. Magnet Missile is probably the best weapon in the game, though I'm not sure if it's a blessing or a curse that a lot of enemy projectiles can be destroyed and tracked by it...

As for Top Spin, great once you actually know how to abuse, but badly programmed for inexperienced users. It would have been better if energy use wasn't linked to contact and if it had a bigger Hit Detection box that was clearly visible by effects.

Speed gamers who can do tricks witht hem impress me even more because of this point of view, but that's how I sees it.

I think knowing the kind of tricks that speed gamers use certainly makes the weapons more appealing. It's one of the reasons why 9's weapons are quite infamous. For 2 I know quite a few tricks, but not for 3, which probably skews my perception of their usefulness. Do you happen to have any good examples of 3's weapons in practice throughout the stages?

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Original / Re: Youtube Debate MM2 or MM3

« on: November 04, 2009, 04:10:02 AM »

Night, I said "NES games" directly preceding the bolded "only game". 9 included because that is what it intends to be. Reread what I said and think within the scope of just those games. The three non NES mainstream titles offer little in a comparison between NES games.

And even if included, 2 remains the only game to have such an all purpose special weapon because it is completely broken. No other weapon works that well on virtually everything. It's literally the way to kill the majority of the bosses in that game. And exactly because it's broken, 2 holds such a special place amongst the series.

After Rockman2, Rockman3 just doesn't stand out special weapons, quite a few of them are straightforward projectiles or a weaker version of previous weapons. There is the Shadow Blade - Metal Blade comparison, but that's acceptable given Metal Blade being far too broken. However, comparing a weapon such as Spark Shock to the Thunder Beam one can't help but think it should have been much more impressive or effective. All it really does is stun enemies that are otherwise more easily killed, and even in that regards, Ice Slasher exceeds it.

Fast forwarding, Special Weapons got increasingly useless in the later NES titles. 7, 8 and RnF improved on it all, especially 8's addition of two attack buttons. But it is still 9 that is truly an unprecedented title in which virtually all Special Weapons are unique and both multi-functional and efficient in battle.

But back to 2 and 3. If you compare their respective arsenal and ignore the Metal Blade being broken, the other Special Weapons in 2 offer quite a lot it in terms of diversity and efficiency. Whilst 3 has all sorts of projectiles, 2 had time manipulation, a shield, and even the first case of the ability to charge.

All in all, 2 beats 3 in Special Weapon functionality if you ask me. But 2 can't hold a candle to 3's graphics, 3's story presentation and 3's introduction of the Weapon Get screen.

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Original / Re: Youtube Debate MM2 or MM3

« on: November 04, 2009, 01:36:23 AM »

Do I really have to repeat my previous post?

I was talking about 1~6+9. Not RnF, nor 8, nor 7, nor any other.

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Original / Re: Youtube Debate MM2 or MM3

« on: November 03, 2009, 11:32:00 PM »

I was talking about 1~6+9. Not RnF, nor 8, nor 7, nor any other.

And RnF was pretty bad with its mandatory ice wall use at times.

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X / Re: Robot Prejudice: Has this been explored in the X series?

« on: November 03, 2009, 03:55:58 PM »

I would consider X6 to be a good example of racism. Alia & X discuss how Gate's creations weren't really dangerous when they were disposed. I can't believe I'm mentioning this before Hypershell.

They were disposed of because they were unanalyzable and potentially dangerous. That and they just didn't like that snobby Gate.

How about in Mega Man X5 when the Mavericks themselves attack the Maverick Hunters for being a facist organization who wouldn't hesitate to kill those who don't agree with their policies?

That never happened, and certainly not in X5.

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Original / Re: Youtube Debate MM2 or MM3

« on: November 03, 2009, 02:07:35 PM »

You clearly don't need, a comma immediately after your verb.

It's for dramatic effect. But not good enough.

OBJECTION!
He clearly stated... that he wants us to compare 2 and 3!

Anyway, you know, the whole "youtube" aspect of this thread is very off-putting, so I'm going to ignore that part... If I were to compare 2 and 3; I'd say they're about equal.

Both games have their issues, but I think they're about equal. 2 simply has a certain charm and nostalgia to it that makes it hard for any other game to exceed it. 3 is a game that comes close to combining that with better graphics and functionality, but is ultimately brought back down by the quirks of its production being rushed. The later games improve on things a lot, but they are hit hard by the "more of the same" factor, so they ultimate can't make a dent in 2's popularity.

One notably thing after 2 is that there hasn't been a single all purpose special weapon again. Which is good for balance, but it also seems to go with the idea that special weapons are not allowed to be truly useful. I think for 3 a lot of the weapons are a bit too straightforward or hard to use. But the same can be said for a lot of the other NES games. The only game that truly did Special Weapons right was 9, but that one is a rather unique case, quality title that avoids many mistakes of the past, but because of that has a few issues uniquely its own.

Which really just returns me to where I started; 2 and 3, and pretty much all the games, they're all quality titles though all of them are imperfect in their own unique way. The difference here is not one of quality, but of preference. The MM series has established such a wide spectrum of tiny differences within the same basic mold, that there is always something a fan will dislike because it's ever so slightly different from a previous title. Just as much, if it's not different, then people will dislike it for being the exact same.

My own preference personally goes to 2 for familiarity and nostalgia, but 3 is growing on me as I play it more.

1120

Anime & Manga / Re: One Piece

« on: November 03, 2009, 12:07:16 AM »

I believe that was Vegapunk...

1121

X / Re: Robot Prejudice: Has this been explored in the X series?

« on: November 01, 2009, 11:23:57 PM »

I seriously dont think ALL the car had reploids in them though. Its likely a few were humans.

There really weren't that many cars. They could easily have all been driven by civilian Repliroids fleeing the scene. We simply do not know.

If anything, the humans shown fleeing from the Mechaniroids in Day of Sigma are a much more clear cut example of their presence.

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X / Re: Robot Prejudice: Has this been explored in the X series?

« on: November 01, 2009, 08:52:25 PM »

You forget, Robots had proven themselves to be great drivers a century earlier; Battle and Chase.

In my opinion, humans are much less trustworthy behind the wheel than robots, and Roll Caskett is more human than your classical robot.

As for the Hunters, they abide by law of cool and are equipped with self exploding bikes that have no brakes.

1123

X / Re: Robot Prejudice: Has this been explored in the X series?

« on: November 01, 2009, 08:34:12 PM »

Reploids can drive too! Talk about prejudice, Hypershell.

What did he do to her anyway, aside from strapping her into that chair, leaving all possible accounts of sexual harassment out of the discussion for the moment. Did it serve any purpose?

They were forcedly putting her abilities as a navigator to good use. Information extraction and making her do her job for them.

1124

X / Re: Robot Prejudice: Has this been explored in the X series?

« on: November 01, 2009, 05:55:30 PM »

How the Rebellion took care of prisoners of war also left something to be desired. Silver Horned's treatment of Nana alone deserved him Irregular status.

1125

ZX / Re: Who exactly created the Biometals?

« on: October 31, 2009, 08:00:32 PM »

I don't see how anyone who's actually played ZX gathers that, yet apparently many do.

Never mind anybody who's played the ZERO-series. Both the first and third game have pretty clearly established how far copying the legendary heroes will get you. The Livemetal's capabilities far exceed that of a copy.