Messages

1076

X / Re: What do you want to see in X9?

« on: November 13, 2009, 09:21:08 PM »

Killing Axl off isn't going to fix things, either. His gameplay's already been fixed, and whatever his character is like really shouldn't matter. Though seeing him as the proposed final boss would be interesting. Oh yeah, and that would retcon Command Mission.

Why and how would the game's playable character turn out to be the final boss? He can't fight himself.

1077

ZX / Re: What's up with ZX3?

« on: November 13, 2009, 05:03:09 PM »

Biometal mixing is a nightmare for game developers. Way too many possibilities.

1078

Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 13, 2009, 03:45:17 PM »

Though this too brings up the question of why Wily brought the point up at all if he knew Megaman could and would harm him, unless he was pointing out that it would make Megaman a criminal.  Though it could be that Megaman himself has the law hardwired into him, while others don't.  Regardless of taking the American slow speech, or the Japanese just raising the buster, both seem to indicate a powerful internal struggle.

It's more of guilt and what is truly right and wrong, actually. Rock raised his weapon against a defenseless human, humans who have their place as the creators of robots. Is it truly right for Rock to do so, even if this one human has caused countless tragedies? Rock being a hero, designed with a strong sense of justice, can not quickly come up with the answer to this question but there's a feeling of guilt that overcomes him as he hesitates.

Naturally, there will be legal consequences of Rock's actions, but this is Wily, would the law really be that harsh to him?

In a similar case, in the Power Battle, Wily brought up that Rock was as bad as him for destroying countless robots. Rock felt quite guilty and couldn't come up with an answer of his own; he needed Dr. Right and his friends to help him set his conscience straight.

Astroboy

As Tezuka didn't label his rules in a numerical order, whereas Right on the other hand, referred to something that was discribed as "the first rule of robotics". X1 certainly appears to literally quote the simplified form of Asimov's first law. Are both not somehow involved?

In regards to which rules Rockman follows, I think it's a bit of a lot of things actually. Rockman certainly takes inspiration from a lot of other series. AstroBoy being a dominant example as it has the same charming atmosphere as the classic series...

In regards to the original Astroboy, doing some googling to confirm that, I found this:

http://www.raintaxi.com/online/2002winter/tezuka.shtml
Underpinning the Astro Boy stories is the "robot law," which states that the two main rules are "robots exists to make people happy" and "robots shall not injure or kill humans."

"Robots exists to make people happy"
"Robots shall not injure or kill humans."

Using the type of numeric ordering that Asimov used, which of these rules is more important?

Certainly, Rockman bases itself in the way its robots interact on the charm presented by Astroboy. But as the series progressed, and the X-series came about. The X-series being considerably less light-hearted, inspiration from other more serious series finds its way into the continuity. Not to mention the setting of Rockman and RockmanX being dominantly set in America instead of Japan. One would be hard pressed to discount Asimov influencing the Rockman series. When it comes to all that; Tezuka's "must make people happy" concept certainly isn't going to cut it in the world of the X-series, the fact that robots can not harm humans becomes much more important than making people happy, and more serious rules then those are seemingly needed.

The last few pages of discussion here seem to have mostly been born from a misunderstanding of the term "Asimov's" being the whole "forced" aspect or simply the three basic concepts that each law exhibits.

In terms of just the written description, the Asimov's rules of robotics are in their simplified form:
-Robots must not harm humans.
-Robots must follow orders.
-Robots must not harm themselves.

Let's presume you simply heard these three concepts, but also let us presume you are unaware of these rules being hardwired into and forced onto robots; these are concepts that appear to be very much common sense for robotics to follow. But, you want to make a series like Astroboy, that has this magnificent freedom and charm in its robots. How are you to make your robots follow the above three basic principles without making your robots into emotionless automatons?

I don't think it can be denied that at least 2 of those core principles have been hinted at or even explicitly mentioned in the Rockman series. Right clearly mentions the first. And Blues hints at the existence of the second. Robots are not to harm humans, and robots should follow orders.

The third might not be hinted at, but I don't think it's something the Rockman series can easily violate. Afterall,. the intended charm of the series in general doesn't even allow such a heavy concept as robots deliberately committing suicide or causing harm to themselves, outside of robot heroics and such. Asimov covered such heroics by adding a disclaimer to each subsequent law that says "unless it contradicts the previous laws".

Rockman, which does not follow the principle of "forcing" these basic rules, naturally does not have any clear hierarchy in the rules like Asimov used, following Tezuka more; Rockman surely can decide to protect himself regardless of human order. After all, if he couldn't, he would simply be one of Asimov's mindless automatons instead of Tezuka's lighthearted robots.

Rockman seems to deal with these concepts by giving them a conscience. The conscience Rock was given, however, deals with many more complex matters than simply the three core concepts Asimov wrote down. Tezuka's "robots are to make people happy" concept certainly being one thing that's part of that conscience as well, in order to make him cover all aspects of right and wrong. After all, it was the kindhearted Dr. Thomas Right, who wrote his brain.

Put yourself in the position of Dr. Right. Certainly, from his point of view, robots are are to do good, robots are to follow these concepts with equal value depending on the situation at hand. Robots are to always do good and are not to make such unfair biased choices as putting humans ahead of robots. In order to make a utopia in which humans and robots can live together, robots are to be allowed to be equal to humans, but at the same time do good without a doubt. In his ideal of robots and humans, robots are exactly like humans but robots and humans are not in conflict, there is peace, tranquility and happiness. Every one is good, robots and humans alike.

Behind Dr. Right's ideals, however, is the whole scientific community. Which is certainly a much harsher world than the one of Dr. Right's ideal vision. Such notions as robots making people happy and robots being happy themselves, are of no concern to them. That robots are unable to harm humans is something that is of far greater importance to these people than the naive concept of human and robot "happiness". As long as Thomas Right makes reliable robots, they are satisfied. As long as they obey the "absolute" requirement that a robot can not harm a human, they are satisfied.

To the scientific community, to the world, the ideas of Dr. Thomas Right to place variable worth on such absolutely requirements as the inability to harm a human, is dangerous. Very very dangerous. Dr. Right, has always been on the border of the conflicting ideas of "making robots more like humans" and "making them the human's tools".

Regardless of Dr. Right's ideal, he himself realizes this as well. With RockmanX, "worrying", he's stepped over the boundary, he created something that is undeniable dangerous, something that is entirely to be feared. Something the world is not yet ready to accept.

No matter how it pains Dr. Right, he has to seal RockmanX away until the world has become more mature. Until the day arrives that humanity is ready to accept him. After all, for all the dangers X provides, for all he is feared. X embodies all of Dr. Right's ideals, and as his heart clearly tells him; RockmanX is the world's hope. RockmanX is his personal hope.

Returning to Tezuka and Asimov. I think somehow the inevitable conflict between the cold hard world of Asimov's robots, compared to the lighthearted and charming world of Tezuka's robot, is a core concept that lies at the root of the classic to X-series transition. After all, the difference between the Tezuka and Asimov approaches more than accurately describes the transition from the classic series to the darker and grittier X-series.

1079

Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 13, 2009, 02:46:29 AM »

When was Crime & Punishment mentioned?

TELOS, Diary: Alouette's Good Day.

1080

ZX / Re: What's up with ZX3?

« on: November 12, 2009, 10:55:21 PM »

Disappointing, be a good clown and CTRL C + CTRL V the letters from your previous posts.

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ZX / Re: What's up with ZX3?

« on: November 12, 2009, 10:48:56 PM »

Oh wow, you're still going. lol

 

lol? You got a frikken Kefka avatar, you can do better than just "lol". Type out that maniacal laughter, in all caps!

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ZX / Re: What's up with ZX3?

« on: November 12, 2009, 10:36:02 PM »

I MYSELF DID NOT ENJOY MEGAMAN MEGAMAN. THIS VIEW OF MY OWN, AN OPINION BASED SOLELY UPON MY OWN ACTIONS AND OWN EXPERIENCES, THUS IN NO WAY YOURS OR ANYONE ELSES, HAPPENS TO NOT AT ALL MATTER TO ANYONE WHO ENJOYED THE GAME BECAUSE THEY ENJOYED IT. I HOWEVER DID NOT.

I figured that would've been obvious, seeing as I'm only one person with one view of a game. Apparently not.

Certainly, you did not pronounce your opinion as simply an opinion, you pronounced that opinion of yours as absolute fact. There is a fine, yet key difference between the two. One you might want to watch. Degrading a fine game is such a pointless activity when you could have simply said "I did not like it that much, personally."

But, right back at you. I guess that happening to have disagreed with what's supposedly simply a measly opinion I took entirely too seriously warrants a deliberately broken caps lock.

I'll say it as it is;

There is a mere two and a half year gap between the last classic game and Rockman9.

Capcom's efforts to produce new materials, even if not a full fletched title, should not be ignored. Just as with classic; ZX and DASH have both gotten new material in recent times.

Therefore, as it is, it is about time for something RockmanX related to come our way. Though, TvC is certainly a step in the right direction.

1083

ZX / Re: What's up with ZX3?

« on: November 12, 2009, 08:36:52 PM »

Except no matter how many new things they added, its still Megaman 1.

For the Rockman series, of which each sequel is "more of the same", since when was being "more of the same" a proper reason not to consider something a legitimate title?

Even if a remake, you got a new game, played a new game and this time were even given the unique opportunity of putting your own creativity at work in making new content for that game. Therefore, one shouldn't act like Capcom didn't do anything for the classic series.

The fact is, that while its anew game, its not a new story

The story of the classic series has always been more of the same and never does a classic title really move the plot forward. So, what's so different from a non remake?

Not to mention, comparing the story of Rockman Rockman to the original Rockman is barely even possible. The amount of story in said remake is considerably greater, to the point that you don't need to stray very far from this forum to find people going on about the game not being canon whilst they moan about the oh so terrible retcon that has been inflicted upon them in the form of a divine smiting from their god Inafune.

Seriously, for anybody that's remotely interested in the story of the classic series, Rockman Rockman offers so much.

As for the game itself, I didn't enjoy it

Just because you didn't enjoy it, doesn't make it a terrible game.

Reviews of the game, from gaming magazines/sites and casual gamers alike dominantly praise the game as being a high quality title whose only major drawbacks are either being a remake or having the graphical style that it has.

Being a terrible game, on the other hand, implicates the game is a glitch ridden piece of trash, which Powered Up is the absolute opposite of. The only game in the entire mainstream Rockman series which comes close to the title of "terrible" is a certain overly experimental X-series title, and even for that one you'd find a whole lot people defending it to the grave.

1084

ZX / Re: What's up with ZX3?

« on: November 12, 2009, 07:37:52 PM »

It's not counted because it's not a new game and just a remake of the first and it sold abysmally?

I would imagine that completely NEW content would be desired here and not just remakes and enhancements.

Also because it was absolutely terrible, lol

That's just absolute nonsense. The game plays as well as any other classic game.

Furthermore, the game had a boatload of new content. It had all the classical stages redone, had boss AI redone, had music redone, had two whole new stages, bosses and weapons added. It introduced over a dozen extra player characters with their own unique playstyle, a complete story, alternate paths in stages and along with that new Copy Robots and a boss battle with an evil Rockman. Furthermore, Powered Up had a challenge mode which added even more original content to the game.

Heck, the game provided the ultimate replayability of any classic game by having itself a level editor that not only covers mechanics and enemies from the first game, but also introduces elements from the second. It even provided online sharing of those stages. Enough material to last us for many years.

Honestly, putting it in the nicest way possible; you really need to rethink that opinion of yours.

1085

ZX / Re: What's up with ZX3?

« on: November 12, 2009, 06:54:20 PM »

9 is like, what, 6 years after the last classic game?

Ten years.

wasnt MM&B in 02?

ロックマン＆フォルテ
Rockman & Forte
(JP) 1998.04.24 (SFC) [SHVC-AR6J-JPN] 5800yen
(JP) 2002.08.10 (GBA) [AGB-AFCJ-JPN] 4800yen

Mega Man & Bass
(US) 2003.03.10 (GBA) [AGB-A6ME-USA]
(EU) 2003.03.21 (GBA) [AGB-A6MP-EUR]

I can't help but wonder. When did Rockman Rockman stop being a legitimate classic game?

Oh and Super Adventure Rockman was released after Rockman and Forte.

1086

ZX / Re: What's up with ZX3?

« on: November 11, 2009, 10:05:13 PM »

they are not going to do a ZX3 to tell the story of how this cliffhanger ends?

Rockman DASH.

1087

Zero / Re: Shield Boomerang/Z Knuckle Reflection/Uses list

« on: November 09, 2009, 10:48:17 PM »

October 19 was 3 days ago? Time travel.

1088

Original / Re: Youtube Debate MM2 or MM3 (Timeline Updated)

« on: November 09, 2009, 07:27:09 PM »

I just think it's a bit weird that in the article you talked of that place as where Wily lifted off from.  It's in the far distance, so either it is just a random backdrop. Or by Megaworld's account, it's Wily destination. It never seemed to be intended as the place he lifted off from.

I think if you were to take into account the additional background that's in the tile data, it seems most likely Wily lifted off from inside the city.

That reminds me, we do have quite a few background differences between the prototype and final game, with a lot of prototype backgrounds seeming much more complex, perhaps those would have been reinserted?

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Original / Re: Youtube Debate MM2 or MM3 (Timeline Updated)

« on: November 09, 2009, 06:45:44 PM »

Speaking of Wily leaving Light's lab, you wrote the following on your site:

In MM3 Wily lifts off from some mysterious area. Judging from the previous scene (where Light talks to MM about Wily stealing Gamma), one assumes this is Light's Lab, but .... is it? In the Wily Wars it's actually Skull Castle .... but that doesn't make much sense. He lifts off from Skull Castle, zooms away and arrives ... right back in Skull Castle? Plus the NES sprite looks nothing like MM3's Skull Castle! Is it Light's Lab?

The impression I got from the scene was that the building in the distance was not where Wily lifts off from, it's too far into the distance from that. We should probably assume that Light's lab is off-screen, either long gone or directly below it. After lifting off, Wily speeds off to go to his Skull Castle, which was visible in the distance all along.

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Original / Re: Youtube Debate MM2 or MM3 (Timeline Updated)

« on: November 09, 2009, 06:34:21 PM »

I dunno, I think it feels kind of dull for the title or get weapon screen, it strikes me more as a scene.

Wasn't there also a cityscape background? I feel the two images together could make a nice image of Rock overlooking the city before explosions or such happen. Preluding the attack of mysterious robots.

1091

Original / Re: Youtube Debate MM2 or MM3 (Timeline Updated)

« on: November 09, 2009, 06:15:20 PM »

But wouldn't that graphic also demand some sort of opening story sequence? That's one thing sorely missing from 3.

1092

Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 09, 2009, 07:21:21 AM »

The key part of Asimov's rules is the forced bit.  If the rules aren't forced then it doesn't matter if MM's morals have 1, 2, or all 3 laws in them.  They are just not meant to be understood as Asimov intended.  Moreover, Wily's robots probably lack a few of those laws.  So they really aren't laws at all.  Not in Asimov fashion.

Gauntlet, I think you need to go back to page 3 and reread where over and over again I've explained how exactly Right's mentioned rules of robotics exist, originate with Asimov, but are not used in the same way as Asimov used them. In other words "Asimov's laws used in a non Asimov-fashion" is what I've been saying from the very beginning.

But, no, you keep on mindlessly quoting how there's no practical application and how X1 is a plothole amongst plotholes.

I've also many times over mentioned "guidelines", "conscience", "determining right and wrong for themselves" and "worrying". Those are the key factors in the practical application of the rules Right mentioned. In other words; Rockman's rules of robotics, not Asimov's, but certainly derived from his basic idea.

The guidelines (the rules of robotics) that establish simplistic ideals that a robot conscience should abide, the application in a conscience allowing Rockman to feel guilt like a human whenever he breaches his own moral principles programmed into his conscience, the concept of worrying being a unique feature that allows a robot to determine right and wrong for themselves being dangerous exactly because they can by their own accord determine that doing harm to humans is a moral thing to do.

Really, you need to get over the idea of any mention of "Asimov" having "Asimov logic" by default. From the very beginning I've explained this in Rockman logic; they're only Asimov's rules by virtue of him having created the basic concepts that lie at the root of this. Asimov logic is an antiquated fictional device that in the Rockman universe has been replaced with it's own unique variation of the core concepts of a multitude of rules that a robot creator must avide by.

Relating to morals, even people don't share all the same morals.  And you don't have to be a gun-toting extremist either.  I don't think all classic MM robots nessasarily have the same morals.  Especially not Wily's bunch.

I think you missed the memo where Rock alone has a strong sense of justice and Wily's robots are programmed to take over the world.

Nobody said they all have the same conscience.

Also, it's strangely silly to consistently mention Blues. The fact that he is an aberration is a fact he himself attest to. It's also a well known fact that Blues has more freedom than almost any other robot.

Personally, being that since the MM Universe is completely different from ours, due to the super fighting robots and what not, there's a chance that  I, Robot was never written, and that Dr. Light is the leading authority on the laws of robotics, as well as the pie eating champion of monsteropolis!

You're talking about the Rockman series in which Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky was written. You're talking about the Rockman series in which the Rockman.exe series was popular software from the 21st century.

Saying I, Robot was never written is quite a stretch.

1093

Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 09, 2009, 12:58:59 AM »

And we're sure that his timeline and ours are one and the same because..?

Because the world of Rockman preceding the 21st century is in nearly every way identical to the real world.

Asimov's rules of robotics found their way to real life scientist that envisioned the future of robotics. Asimov's rules from there also found their way to the reality that is Capcom's writers. Of course they're going to apply in some fashion. Not identical to Asimov's fiction, but in a Rockman fashion.

Dr. Light is a fictional character and the way he made his ficticious robots =/= the way Asimov imagined his own fictional robots.  That is, with forced compliance to the laws.

So where's the plothole? Right mentions rules of robotics, if they're not necessarily strictly Asimov's rules, then he can sure as hell apply them any way he pleases. And he did. That's how the rules practically apply to Rockman; in their own unique way.

Which is pretty much what I've been saying since the beginning:

The concept that Capcom's writers used originates with Asimov. But they're not being used in the way Asimov used them.

"BUT THEY CAN'T DO THIS IN CANON BECAUSE BLAH BLAH BLAH MAGIC ASMIMOV'S LAWS ASSPULL."

Except, the entire previous page of discussion was about how such a literal use of the laws, DOES NOT APPLY.

1094

Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 09, 2009, 12:43:34 AM »

But they are not Asimov.

Asimov's rules stopped being his ages ago.

Dr. Right is like every modern scientist, somebody that exists in a timeframe after Asimov's rules of robotics became popularized in society and the industry. He simply is the one person that figured out a way to implement the basic principles of those rules in working robots without relying on the antiquated details of last century's fiction.

1095

Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 09, 2009, 12:31:28 AM »

Technically, he only mentions the 1st Law of Robotics, in the X intro.  Who's to say whether he is programmed the 2nd or 3rd law into him.  I mean, keep in mind that Light is a douche.

I think you missed the memo that said there's no such thing as programmed laws for robots such as Rockman. And especially not for robots such as X.

The rules of robotics have their own unique presence in the series. And your namesake himself implicated the existence of the second law. By their very definition robots are to follow orders.

So different that you shouldn't even bring up Asimov in a MM discussion.

Asimov's three rules/laws of robotics have established a presence beyond fiction; they have become a part of the real world's robotics by infamy and simple common sense in regards to autonomous robots.

I think you still don't understand what I meant with "they apply, but not in the way Asimov uses them"...

Asimov's original concept of hardwired commands is not the way his rules have found their way in reality. In reality they exist simply as guidelines for the construction of autonomous robots; it's afterall perfectly logical not to create disobedient, homocidal, suicidal robots.

Rockman uses the those notions, that have their origin in Asimov's fiction, in its own unique way; robots are given a conscience, becoming as similar to humans as possible.

1096

Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 08, 2009, 08:56:53 PM »

AKA they are in their minds as norms, as "this is right this is wrong" sort of way, without being outright hardwired?

That's pretty much exactly what I'm saying.

1097

ZX / Re: Who exactly created the Biometals?

« on: November 08, 2009, 05:41:42 PM »

Except Model O doesn't talk. So, until identified, all it is to them is a mysterious floating stone statue of sorts.

1098

Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 08, 2009, 05:14:56 PM »

The games themselves go against the first and second law of robotics. 

But Blues himself says robots are by definition machines that follow orders.
He himself is the sole exception, why else would he wonder about his own identity in regards to that notion?

And again, the rules of robotics are a complete oversimplification of the system of conscience that's at work. The matter of free will in artificial life is not something as clear cut, simple, nor as black and white as the three laws of robotics. The three rules are intended to enforce human control over robots, whereas Right's robots are all about the integration of his robots as people in human society whilst still abiding to the basic principles of the rules of robotics as a respected scientist in that field.

The rules are at work, just not in the logical and simplistic Asimov way.

1099

Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 08, 2009, 04:54:05 PM »

But Light's statement is also a great oversimplification of the concepts he himself devised. "Worrying" is a complicated concept that leaves even the greatest scientific mind of the next century scratching his head on how it actually works.

Exactly because it's such a complicated concept, especially in relation to the robots to the programming that precede it, Occam's razor certainly does not apply here. It's not a plothole, it's the inevitable paradox of free will being given to artificial life created by human hands.

Right believes the first law to apply somehow, and we should see it as such, even if as an oversimplification of the truth.

1100

Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 08, 2009, 04:44:21 PM »

Don't forget, in contrast to all that precede him, X's worrying disregards the 0th law even; he considers humans and Repliroids equally. He is unbiased in affairs of humans and Repliroids.

As for R7, Wily's using a guilt ploy moreso than the literal Asimov interpretation. He's invoking Rock's conscience that it is wrong to kill him. And Rock has a pretty damn strong righteous conscience, it's that very reason why he stood up against Wily in the first place.