Messages

1051

Zero / Re: So, if the body doesn't count, Zero could destroy Omega even as a jawbreaker

« on: November 25, 2009, 02:13:24 AM »

Instead of heart, they could have said, that Zero's spirit and determination made him so much superior.

...

What DID you think they meant with "heart"?

1052

Fan Creations / Re: Zan's stuff

« on: November 24, 2009, 05:50:58 PM »

1053

ZX / Re: What's up with ZX3?

« on: November 23, 2009, 09:53:12 PM »

Gameplay is important. No ones arguing that. and ZX and ZXA have the same exact gameplay Megaman is known for. running and shooting.

Those doubting that ZXA has the exact same gameplay.. they should go an play the game as Model a!

You can call me an idiot, I just stated it was an opinion of mine. I'm not stating it as a fact, or as though it's gospel. I just "feel" that way. No sense in getting irritated over an opinion that is stated to be as such, an opinion.

And I "feel" that way about that opinion you proclaimed.

Really now, if you're going to act "it's just an opinion" and feel no need to back it up, you shouldn't be voicing it like that in the first place. This is a forum, we debate opinions. That's what we do here. Sure, sometimes we fire bullets made of words at each other. But if all you care about is voicing your opinion and receiving some one else's opinion is a pointless exercise, then you're never going to see all sides of the spectrum.

To make clear what I mean, let me rephrase that; I can not understand how you would think ZX is not like the "Rockman" of old, if you do not react to the points we brought up in question of your opinion.

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Fan Creations / Re: Zan's stuff

« on: November 22, 2009, 02:09:42 AM »

1055

ZX / Re: What's up with ZX3?

« on: November 22, 2009, 12:23:24 AM »

There's very little of what made megaman megaman left.

ZX Advent and Rockman9.

And it's getting to the point where you don't even play as Megaman anymore.

Can I presume you're not a DASH fan? That's where ZX has always been heading. It was intended to be a comfortable transition from the world of Rockman Zero to the world of Rockman DASH. In doing so, it borrows elements from all of Rockman in an attempt to unify the five series. ZX combines classic with X with ZERO with DASH.
 

These games aren't directed toward classic fans, they are directed toward the next generation of people that may have little knowledge of the contrast between megaman then and megaman now. I like megaman then, so I'd find a ZX3 to be in poor taste for me.

There's so many homages to the whole Rockman series present in the ZX-series, I don't know where you come from saying it was clearly built for a new generation. The fact that you can find the writers cracking jokes about NES covers and making references to obscure wonderswan games, as well as them offering the ability play the whole of ZX Advent as little NES sprite, should have made clear the amount of effort to appease the old generation of fans.

1056

X / Re: What do you want to see in X9?

« on: November 20, 2009, 07:24:50 PM »

We mean a new game of comparable quality to the old games mentioned.  Hence the use of the word, "like".

1057

Anime & Manga / Re: Pokemon Anime

« on: November 20, 2009, 07:15:06 PM »

I would Like it if Ash actually became a pokemon master.

Should have happened after season1, and with that, the anime should have been over.

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Original / Re: Is the Rockman World series truly dead?

« on: November 20, 2009, 02:16:06 PM »

There's absolutely no relation between Rockman Zero and the Rockman World series. Capcom didn't make Rockman Zero.

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Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 20, 2009, 02:47:50 AM »

I think that'd be a bit tasteless and disrespectful toward the nature of the classic series.

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ZX / Re: What's up with ZX3?

« on: November 20, 2009, 02:32:31 AM »

it got a sequel, but not enough to put much effort into the sequel. The result, ZXA. which just couldnt live up to ZX1, and bombed.

We've had this discussion before, Flame, and you should know my response. What you're saying is simply nonsense.

Advent is a game that clearly fixed a tremendous amount of issues from the first ZX. All the key annoyances of ZX were taken care of. It is a much more streamlined game.

I strongly disagree with your assessment on music; Inti's games all have the same musical quality, that simply boils down to musical taste, not quality. Likewise, as a spriter, I consider your point on backgrounds moot; I have never even noticed this difference and I still do not. Also I raise in counter the immense improvement in character sprites in Advent. The fact that you can play as the bosses is already a testimony to the tremendous effort put into Advent. The graphical effort put into that alone easily outweighs yours point on backgrounds.

Furthermore, do I really need to remind you that Advent sold more than ZX in the rest of the world? It's only Japan's audience that's picky, and they've been picky with everything Rockman for the longest time now.

In all honesty, I would appreciate it if you would stop saying Advent was a decline in quality compared to ZX. You're starting to sound like OmegaZ and his foolish idea that Inti has lost their magic touch.

Really, Advent really wasn't a decline from ZX. If anything, Advent and ZX are like Z4 and Z3; of equal quality. It's simply the case that Inti's series has hit quality's peak unless a radical new direction is entered. After Z4, ZX was that new direction and it was certainly in many ways an improvement on the ZERO-series. Quality has never been Inti's issue. With their stagnating sales what they need is not more quality; they need to find the direction that sells.

although theres quite a few who have the mistaken belief that it would be cool and "retro" ignoring the fact that it would subtract from the story's quality, since the story has evolved far from the SNES games, to where an snes game couldnt really hold the kind of storytelling that has developed.

In all honesty, I think SNES story mechanics could do some good to make an X-series title be as appreciated as Rockman9. It's not the graphics, but rather that simplicity that really worked in R9's favor.

Mind you, I don't mean this for a mainstream sequel, bur rather some sidestory that can help rekindle people's interest in the X-series as a gameplay experience.

I probably wouldn't.  I'd buy them anyway, seeings how I'm a MegaMan nut, but I still say that MM9 for all its WiiWare bells and whistles still yields an inferior result to MM1-3.

I believe we can both agree that this "inferior result" is mostly a result of the game's difficulty. I think in regards to arsenal and other innovate concepts R9 is a very high quality title. They just need to work on the game starting out like hell and ending up like a memorization cakewalk.

That and including things like Endless Stage as part of the main package...

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ZX / Re: What's up with ZX3?

« on: November 18, 2009, 11:21:50 PM »

OmegaZ, do get your head out of the gutter.

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Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 18, 2009, 09:39:54 PM »

20XX software? Red Sun/Blue Moon?

Red Sun/Blue Moon, as the Baby Elf names, but also the EXE3 version names. I believe they also implicated a certain company that made the games. They're saying Capcom made and released Rockman.exe games in the 21st century.

Cold or intentionally mean?

Zero being Zero.

I think bringing up Astroboy was valid to the discussion and, probably, on the right track in terms of classic series robots and any "robot laws" that exist.

Thing is, even in Astroboy, there is a certain aspect of their programming that forces upon them such concepts as the rules of robotics.

To reiterate the example from Pluto, robot law section 13, a robot must not harm or kill a human; robots are programmed to ensure they follow the law. Only a defect is believed to have the ability to break the law.

To link that to the 1980 Astroboy; it's clearly something special when a robot is equipped with "Heart" or the "Omega Factor". Atlas, who is equipped with the Omega Factor, being the supposed one robot that could break the law.

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Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 18, 2009, 02:24:35 PM »

What I said in regards to the classic to X transition is that because of the Dr. Wily incidents there are dominant feelings from the robotic community and the world itself that direct fear toward the notion of human-like machines. Instead of being mankind's friends, they have become mankind's enemies and therefor a robot such as X, who represents the final step in robot evolution, becomes something to be feared.

In the late 21st century, and early 22nd century, we see a considerable decline in human-like robots as a result of this. We also see the humans themselves starting to use robots as mere tools, not just for industrialization, but for war. The dominant form of robots has become the "Mechaniroids".

In the time period in which X was finally uncovered, the aforementioned strong feelings of fear have finally been put to rest by humanity. The discovery of X to all other robots became something simply incomparable. The creation of the Repliroids stands in sharp contrast with the simplistic Mechaniroids which the people are most familiar with.

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Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 17, 2009, 10:00:15 PM »

It actually is a bit of both. Robot free will is at odds with a bias toward human obedience. In a way, this certainly confirms each of the Asimov laws as having some value within the robots' mindset. After all, these robots wish to die when the humans tell them to and these robots wish to live solely to be useful to humans. There is something that tells them to behave in this manner that prefers human life over robotic life.

Whilst I can't speak for the original Tetsuwan Atom, such a concept is true in the serious setting of Pluto. Robot Law, section 13... "No robot will harm or kill a human." Dr. Ochanomizu explained that the Robot Laws are not simply a legal law, it is also true that all robots are programmed with safeguards to ensure they operate within the law. Robots murdering humans is an incredibly rare occurrence, and it is a common place belief that for a robot to commit such an act, it must be defected.

Certainly, in Rockman as well, every action is taken to ensure the reliability of robots in relation to the rules of robotics. Even with the factor of free will; the law must be obeyed.

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Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 17, 2009, 07:18:15 PM »

To emphasize the importance of what I said two walls of text ago; the conflict between the lighthearted approach of Tetsuwan Atom's robots and the emotionless cold approach of Asimov's laws stands at the root of the classic to X transition. In that transition there is simply a strong feeling in the robotic community that robotics can not progress in the way of Atom, but rather in a more sterile and predictable fashion. Further advancements to make robots more human are shunned.

Though this does not seem to have happened yet in the classic series, it is the unfortunate future of the classic series resulting from the fear brought by the Dr. Wily incidents. The basis for that change already exists underneath the lighthearted Atom based classic series. For instance, look at R9's expiration date law. Why are free willed individuals so willing to let themselves get scrapped?

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Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 17, 2009, 06:59:58 PM »

Nobody ever said that, though.

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Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 17, 2009, 06:41:50 PM »

The X-series is in the same universe as the classic series, one is the future of the other. As a a result, both series are undeniably connected and influence each other.

The rules of robotics were mentioned in the X-series in regards to the classic series timeframe, do not forget that. In the presented setting, there is fear of robots, there is unwillingness to advance closer to humans. Dr. Right's overly idealistic ideals stands in sharp opposition to the cold harsh reality that exists underneath.

No matter how classic tries to channel the lighthearted atmosphere of Tetsuwan Atom, you mustn't forget what classic will eventually become.

1068

X / Re: What do you want to see in X9?

« on: November 17, 2009, 12:17:00 AM »

I really like ZXA but ZX was crap.

The difference between same series Rockman games has always been infinitesimal, there is no quality difference, only a difference in preference.

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X / Re: What do you want to see in X9?

« on: November 16, 2009, 11:40:05 PM »

You know, the fact that you some fans can think the ZX games aren't good just comes to show how much some fans are spoiled brats.

1070

Zero / Re: About Ragnarok...

« on: November 16, 2009, 10:31:18 PM »

Obviously he used his position as Neo Arcadia's ruler to use their vast resources to develop Ragnarok. There's even blueprints lying around the ruins of Neo Arcadia for Montagne to include in his report.

1071

X / Re: What do you want to see in X9?

« on: November 15, 2009, 03:12:24 PM »

Fanart.  Nakayama's lines aren't that solid.

Eriance, I'm guessing.

The only glimpse we got of MMZ-style X was at Yggdrasil in Z2, which Sprites Inc. can help you out with.  That's it.

"Help". I find the glimpse we had in MMZOCW a bit better.

1072

X / Re: What do you want to see in X9?

« on: November 14, 2009, 07:11:32 PM »

I'm not sure whether or not I want to see Axl as the FINAL boss, because it would seem pretty anti-climactic if there were no surprises beyond X8's foreshadowing.  But Axl as *A* boss, that could easily work.

I can appreciate him as a boss. As X and Zero have both been fightable before. It's the "final" part that's my biggest issue. One cannot remove a player character from the most important segment of the game.

Really, if Axl is at all made a boss, I would demand X and Zero to be bosses as well. And boss rush, naturally.

I don't see how that's at all true.  If 8 animaloid forms didn't make us forget about the other MegaMan characters in Advent, there's no reason X8 would do it.  Without being limited by Zero/ZX's 4-element system there's every reason for copying bosses to be more offensively-oriented and less obstacle-oriented.  There's no reason you need to be granting Axl a new obstacle to clear with every form.  Rather, like Command Mission, your ultimate goal is really expanding his attack selection.  But by using A-Trans for it rather than alternate weapons, it lets the game developers get out of Axl's default mold of 8-directional rapid fire.  That really caused him a severe lack of variety in X8; every weapon was the same handling with a different effect, and it made Axl feel monotonous.

Thing is, ZXA has all available player characters as transformations of the base form.

In X8 however, we have three different characters. Of those three different characters, only Axl can transform into another character. Therefore, the wide variety of playable forms are only accessible through Axl. Essentially, making you have 11 player characters, 9 of which are Axl. And 9 of which that trigger Axl specific cutscenes. Quite cumbersome, and maybe a far too Axl-centric.

What it really comes down to... is that ZXA's forms are actually too close to full fletched player characters. If X8 is to copy bosses, which I think it's wholly possible, some severe limitations are to be implemented. Either the current time limit system, or we simply act like they're special weapons with a different character model attached to Axl. As in, their mobility is similar to or less than Axl, and they can only attack until their weapon energy runs out. Different from ZXA where each character remained capable of fighting regardless of weapons energy, and where weapons energy was replenished.

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Original / Re: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

« on: November 14, 2009, 02:58:53 PM »

Oh, that got translated?

Nope, because of its length, people haven't really tried to translate it sentence by sentence. I've been told the basic gist of it, though.

Allouette's basically on a quest to find names for the Baby Elves. She talks to everyone around the base about it. -Andrew talks about his past as a teacher, and the differences between humans and Repliroids. Repliroid children are apparently much better in school than human children, but Repliroids unlike humans have notable issues with things like singing; they would only repeat the song like a record player.
-Rouge and Joan bring up nerdy facts from centuries ago. They tried naming the Baby Elves after popular 21th century software, in particular Rockman.exe3 and 4's subtitles. Somewhere along the line Crime and Punishment is mentioned too. -Zero is being mean as usual, and Ciel saves the day by coming up with their known names, derived from the French words for "to pray" and "to create".

Astroboy's logic works for the classic MM series and it's interesting to know.  Especially since Astro is a MM influence.

The wording implies an Asimov influence, but they just might have either consiously or subconciously channelled Astroboy.

For the classic series, Atom is certainly the biggest inspiration. The X-series is a bit different from classic, though. But classic does inevitably lead into the X-series. There's certainly quite a lot of other influences here.

Clearly robots in the MM series won't follow just any order, but do follow a purpose that could be categorized under the second law.

I think instead of thinking about the numbered humanoid robots all the time, we should extent our thoughts a bit to the less intelligent robots. The met for instance. We know it's purpose. So, how does its AI work?

King brings up an interesting idea, that he's the first robot (far before Sigma) to outright defy humanity in general and thus ignore the first law to some degree.  He defies humanity, his creator, and even self preservation, breaking all three laws in the course of one game.

I think this is mostly the way Wily (and Right as well) programs his robots. Views of right and wrong and such. But not just that, the robot's personality is also a factor. And maybe as you say, "core purpose" is also an important one.

All in all, sometimes their own creators can't quite predict what will happen.

King is certainly a special case in that every aspect of his being was designed to be "the King of Robots". He can only be who he is, and follow his reason for being. Even if it defies his own creator, he must follow his own feelings about the complicated affairs Rock and Forte made him realize.

You know, in the course of this discussion I think I've done a total 180 on my opinion of Asimov "hardwired" laws vs Tezuka "legal" laws.

As a result of your previous post, I started reading Pluto myself. Quite an interesting read.

I've also taken the time yesterday to watch the American produced Astroboy movie. Also worth a watch, especially to people that are fan of both Astroboy and MegaMan. It was really quite a homage to the previous versions of Astroboy.

In both stories, things like Robot Laws are occasionally mentioned. The Astroboy movie unexpectedly felt like it had a more American flair in its mention of it, like they were quoting Asimov. In one instance a robot tried to kill a human: "The robot laws, they've been in place for ## years!", to which the robot replies "I'm old school!" They constantly make it sound like newer robots are incapable of such a feat. Despite this, the robots are all lighthearted like in the original Astroboy.

Pluto on the other hand. I'm not quite sure what to make of it. But I think that's the whole point of the story in many ways, delving into the humanity of these robots and the unfolding mystery regarding Pluto. It seems that the robot laws are legal laws by virtue of Gesicht's investigation into it as a police officer, but at the same time, there's a strong impression that perfectly functioning robots can't kill a human; only malfunctioning robots can. The only exception being the incident of 8 years ago, in which no malfunction was found... Even in the 39th Central Asian conflict, the world's strongest robots could only harm other robots...

As for the original Astroboy. I admit that I haven't had too much exposure with it. I watched the first episode of the 1960s version, 3 episodes of the 1980s version, quite a few of the 2004 one, and played Omega Factor to completion. I don't recall too much of the Robot Laws being mentioned yet.
 

1074

X / Re: What do you want to see in X9?

« on: November 14, 2009, 02:19:47 PM »

As for gameplay, X8 made Axl more different from X but I do feel that Axl could stand to be touched up.  Advent's shpiel of copying bosses would be cool if better implemented.  Also, he should be using both pistols in his attacks.

As for gameplay, X8 made Axl more different from X but I do feel that Axl could stand to be touched up.  Advent's shpiel of copying bosses would be cool if better implemented.  Also, he should be using both pistols in his attacks.
combine X8 Axl with Command mission Axl maybe? I do agree that he could stand to be more than a Bass clone with a hover. Also, his Copy ability has not really been that usefull in either X7 or 8... Though i liked how in 7, while you coldnt copy the form of enemies not your size, you could get an ability from them temporarily. X8 could have used that. only in CM has his transform been extremely useful.

I really don't think Axl using an improved version of Advent's system would work out at all in the X-series. Such an ability would allow him to pretty much become THE sole playable character in the game, leaving X and Zero behind.

I think the only change to Axl's copy ability that is absolutely needed for his X8 gameplay, is making the copy shot automatic and the game keeping a record of which enemy data you've obtained with how much energy. Much like how in X7's story he could transform into a robot he copied long ago, instead of immediately transforming into an enemy he killed. It would certainly allow Axl to use his abilities in a more versatile manner.

I fail to see your logic. Axl doesn't need to die if he's the final boss, first of all. Again, X5 shows that they can fight without the other dying. Make him being controlled by Lumine's remaining data or something, it's not that hard to come up with something to back it up.

Remember how pissed off everyone was for not being able to use Spider after a specific point in XCM? First off, it has already been done in XCM, and is therefore uncreative for X9, but in a 2d platformer, having Axl become the FINAL boss, makes sure only 2 out of 3 of the game's main characters can fight the greatest challenge of the game. Why would you not be able to defeat the final boss as Axl? It's the FINAL boss, that's just an insult to the people that like Axl's gameplay.

The only way the Axl becomes a boss notion works out is if Axl can either avoid the scenario completely, or there's an alternate boss for those playing as Axl. And even then, Double Hero System puts a total dent in that scenario. You'd have to somehow reason why X and Zero separately also become a boss, as they're challenged by teams of X and Axl, Zero and Axl. You can't simply have an X5 scenario in which X fights Zero and Zero fights X.

The ONLY way it can be done properly is with the Awakened Zero scenario: entirely optional. But in all honesty, I disliked that about X4~6 and Xtreme2. There are far too many bosses only one of them can fight. I still want to try fighting Double as Zero and Iris as X. Likewise with Berkana and Gareth. If they're going to do it this way, they better implement some sort of boss rush that makes otherwise impossible battles possible. See ZX Advent for example.

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X / Re: What do you want to see in X9?

« on: November 13, 2009, 09:51:43 PM »

It simply defeats the purpose of making Axl a player character to begin with. It's ridiculous to remove a player character with its own unique playstyle by making him the final boss. It hurts the game by having the player unable to use him in the final battle, and it would hurt the game even more if he were removed even more; X8 had 3 distinct gameplay styles, X9 needs to equal that at the very least.