What did Lumine mean?

CyberXIII · 54153

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Offline CyberXIII

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Reply #75 on: July 05, 2009, 10:04:56 PM
"Neo Sigma" is a name used for X2's final Sigma. X3's Sigma is just referred to as "Sigma" and "Kaiser Sigma" for his final form.

Yeah, an arbitrary gameplay limitation is a sign of Sigma not learning? Just because the game only focuses on eight bosses doesn't mean there are more. Besides, not all of the eight have the same allegiance in a few of the games.

Really, no matter what number of forces he has, X and Zero will always defeat them.

Really, they don't. Sigma is a charismatic leader. That alone negates the good majority of symptoms.



1. No, X3 is Neo2.  It's in the OST.  The Wireframe Sigma Head is the Virus form.  The body in X2 was Neo Sigma, not the Head.

2. I concede this one.

3. He was a leader in X1.  X2 was the remnants of his army gathering together. X3 was everyone obeying the corrupted Doppler. X4 was all Repliforce. X5 had no central leader. X6 was Gate. X7 was Red Alert. X8 was the New Gens.

The free will thing still has me confused.  Aren't Reploids able to make their own choices and decisions, unfettered by programming?

What color is my heart, Snively...?

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Offline Zan

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Reply #76 on: July 05, 2009, 10:20:41 PM
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1. No, X3 is Neo2.  It's in the OST.  The Wireframe Sigma Head is the Virus form.  The body in X2 was Neo Sigma, not the Head.

What OST are you talking about? Compendium of Rockman X outright identifies the X3 final form as Neo Sigma and lists the X3 forms as Sigma and Kaiser Sigma respectively. Let alone the game credits stating so.

Quote
3. He was a leader in X1.  X2 was the remnants of his army gathering together. X3 was everyone obeying the corrupted Doppler. X4 was all Repliforce. X5 had no central leader. X6 was Gate. X7 was Red Alert. X8 was the New Gens.

Regardless of the state of his army at any time, him being a charismatic leader is a fact. Therefore he's sociable, has a sense of morals, can quickly adapt to any situation, has responsibility and knows when he himself is to blame for something. The fact that he disagrees with everything he was thought as Hunter is his own choice.

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The free will thing still has me confused.  Aren't Reploids able to make their own choices and decisions, unfettered by programming?

Robots have had free will ever since the classic series. Repliroids are simply a step up, being able to 'determine right and wrong for themselves'.

But free will is never free. Do you really think a human's 'free will' is truly free? Our very lives are the chains that bind us; physics, DNA, compassion, logic, morals, ethics, experience, laws, society. Repliroids might have free will, but there are not by definition irregular because they are bound within the confines of regularity. Sigma by the very definition of his being is an irregular from the start in that he was never bound to morals, ethics, compassion, law and society.



Offline VixyNyan

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Reply #77 on: July 05, 2009, 10:29:19 PM
Compendium of X
Page 43: Rockman X2: Neo Sigma
Page 57: Rockman X3: Kaiser Sigma

Nothing else mentioned. Any other names might have been old sources or rumors that was later fixed by Capcom.

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Offline CyberXIII

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Reply #78 on: July 05, 2009, 10:45:32 PM
Sigma only had an army in X1 and X2.  He stole someone else's in the other games.  As a matter of fact, the bosses in X5 were all random reploids that had stuff the hunters needed for the Cannon and Shuttle.

It seems to me we're starting to argue what the definition of Irregular/Maverick is in the X series. 

Is it a Reploid rebelling against Humanity?
Is it a Reploid corrupted with the Sigma/ Zero/ Nightmare Viri?
Is it a label humans have placed on Reploids that don't do as their told?
is it a Reploid that is merely a criminal?

Lastly, about the free will thing: If what you say is true about the robots having free will in the Classic series, then what did studying X accomplish?  They already knew right and wrong; they were programmed with it.

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Offline Zan

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Reply #79 on: July 05, 2009, 11:10:38 PM
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Sigma only had an army in X1 and X2.  He stole someone else's in the other games.  As a matter of fact, the bosses in X5 were all random reploids that had stuff the hunters needed for the Cannon and Shuttle.

It's very naieve to think Sigma's forces are limited to the scope of the game.

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Lastly, about the free will thing: If what you say is true about the robots having free will in the Classic series, then what did studying X accomplish?  They already knew right and wrong; they were programmed with it.


"To determine it for themselves."

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It seems to me we're starting to argue what the definition of Irregular/Maverick is in the X series.

That's the entire point, there is no set definition. It's highly dependent on who is saying it.



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Reply #80 on: July 05, 2009, 11:19:44 PM
Sigma only had an army in X1 and X2.  He stole someone else's in the other games.  As a matter of fact, the bosses in X5 were all random reploids that had stuff the hunters needed for the Cannon and Shuttle.
In X1, he infected and took the majority of the Maverick Hunters with him. in X2, He had the Counter Hunters who wer ein charge while he was gone, and had a maverick making factory. plus many of his forces from his initial rebellion. in X3, he infected and corrupted Doppler, whi spread the virus around, creating new forces. "stole"? Doppler never HAD an army. they were all just reploids who lived in Dopplertown, under the assumption he had created a safe haven with his antivirus. Which was false, as he was possibly infected prior to creating Dopplertown. (I think it might have been before Megamission...) All the reploids in Dopplertown became his soldiers. in X4, he still has his own forces, remember, there are all enemies and such on Sky Lagoon, those are all mavericks sent by Sigma. Dragoon is a traitor, tricked and used by Sigma by abusing his lust for battling X and Zero, and Double, a spy who infiltrated the hunters.

in Short, Sigma ALWAYS has his own forces. his followers. the ones he "steals" or "uses" in game, are just that. being used. Like Red Alert. But in the end, Red Alert did go Maverick with the exception of Red. in X8, he didnt steal anything. the NewGens went with him of their own accord, because they they awakened. They became sigma.

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It seems to me we're starting to argue what the definition of Irregular/Maverick is in the X series. 

Is it a Reploid rebelling against Humanity?
Is it a Reploid corrupted with the Sigma/ Zero/ Nightmare Viri?
Is it a label humans have placed on Reploids that don't do as their told?
is it a Reploid that is merely a criminal?

the way I see it, its all of those.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Hypershell

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Reply #81 on: July 06, 2009, 03:41:10 AM
The definition of "Maverick" varies greatly depending on who uses it.  I think, in the X-series context, it's those Reploids who threaten humanity, but they commonly believe the virus to be the sole cause of such behavior.  X8 took that assumption and threw it in the Hunters' faces.  In addition to Sigma, MHX also outright states that Vile can go Maverick of his own accord, hence justifying his presence with Sigma and the New Gens in X8.

But free will is never free. Do you really think a human's 'free will' is truly free? Our very lives are the chains that bind us; physics, DNA, compassion, logic, morals, ethics, experience, laws, society. Repliroids might have free will, but there are not by definition irregular because they are bound within the confines of regularity. Sigma by the very definition of his being is an irregular from the start in that he was never bound to morals, ethics, compassion, law and society.
That's a highly speculative philosophical debate, and one which the likes of Weil and Serpent are likely to oppose.

"You who possess the wellspring of emotion known as the heart...  You are the true Mavericks!"

Zan is right~

X2: (Neo Sigma)

X3: (Sigma)
What source denotes Neo Sigma as Sigma's FINAL form in X2 and not his first?  The X2 credits list only one form, Neo Sigma, with set Speed and Power of 18500rp.

Servbot 20's old sourcebook info lists the first form as Neo Sigma and the second as Sigma Virus.  This makes sense given that X3 establishes that, like X and Zero, the Sigma Virus has unknown Speed and Power ratings, so it's excusable that X2 ignored it (also the fact that the Sigma Virus, while existing in X2 and in fact utilized by the Computer Center under Magna Centipede's supervision, was not really understood by the Hunters until X3).  Otherwise, the fact that X2 lists only one Sigma form is very, very odd.  Especially so if it lists a floating head with fixed stats but not Sigma's actual body.

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Offline Flame

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Reply #82 on: July 06, 2009, 04:22:17 AM
Well, X2 wireframe WAS the virus, it was a phisical manifestation of the virus, just like the sword Miniboss  I believe. Only that we and the hunters didnt know that till Doppler told us.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline VixyNyan

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Reply #83 on: July 06, 2009, 10:22:36 AM
The virus was in a "Neo" state. Get it? >U<
In X3, it was called Sigma Virus though. ^^

The makers of the "Compendium of X" didn't read other sources I guess. They might have just taken the source straight from the games. The games are still accessable (taking screenshots, publishing them on a book, and so on).

Think at that point of view and you see that someone in Japan messed up, not us. I mean after all, the source comes straight from official books, and the older books are hard to find now. The books are mostly about artworks anyway (R20 is a good example ^^). The publishers don't usually have time to fix every single error, so what you see is what you get.

I think that among the "newer" books (200X), the most informative books was RZOCW, CoX (not the doctor >v<) and even R20. R20 was mostly about artworks though and the RPM book isn't really a fully detailed book. It does show a little information on each game (not full guides though). Enough to explain what the games are about (with as little spoiler as possible). It only showed games up to 2002, and the Key Words (Idiom) we got at the end pages wasn't as deep and impressive as the list in RZOCW.

We do get some small hints about elements for the DASH series and a little back story about Zero, but like I said, the information was kept short, on a small column. Reminds you of a 200+ pages instruction manual, minus the button setup, doesn't it? o.o; </wii>

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Offline Zan

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Reply #84 on: July 06, 2009, 01:27:22 PM
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What source denotes Neo Sigma as Sigma's FINAL form in X2 and not his first?  The X2 credits list only one form, Neo Sigma, with set Speed and Power of 18500rp.

As Vixy said, the Compendium lists Neo Sigma as his final form. But for obvious reasons the RP ratings in the game belong to the first form. I think they decided on the change because in general, only the final forms have distinct names, whereas the first form is always just Sigma.



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Reply #85 on: July 07, 2009, 12:50:37 AM
Quote from: Zan
Sigma did not go nuts thanks to the Virus, that's a fan assumption.

Quote from: Rockman X4 X to Z Kouryaku File
かつてはイレギュラーハンター第17部隊の隊長であったシグマ。その圧倒的な戦闘能力は史上最強といわれ、特A級ハンターとして仲間に尊敬され、信頼されていたレプリロイドである。だが、ある日、正体不明の赤いイレギュラー(ゼロ)との戦いにおいて敗北を喫し、最強と自負するプライドがズタズタにされた。このときにゼロからイレギュラー化を促進するウイルスに感染し、邪悪な心が芽生えてしまう。数ヶ月後、完全に邪悪なウイルスの虜となったシグマは、その圧倒的な力と天才的な頭脳で大勢のレプリロイドを従え、人間に対して反乱を起こしたのであった。

Sigma was at one time the Commander of the Irregular Hunter 17th Unit. A Special A Class Hunter, he was called the strongest in history due to his overpowering combat abilities, and gained the confidence and respect of his fellow repliroids. However, on a certain day, he suffered a defeat in battle by an unidentified unknown red irregular (Zero) that tore at his proud ego. At that time he was infected by some manner of virus that facilitates irregularity, germinating wickedness in his heart. Several month later, Sigma was completely enslaved by the evil virus, and used his overwhelming strength and genius intellect to subdue many repliroids into joining him in a revolt against humanity.

Quote from: Rockman X4 Koushiki Irregular Hunters Manual
しかし、ある日ゼロに敗北し、イレギュラー化するウイルスをうつされてしまった。邪悪な心に支配されたシグマは、人類の敵としてエックスたちの前に何度も現われることになる。

But, one day, [Sigma] suffered a defeat by Zero, and was inflicted with an irregular converting virus. Under the control of an evil heart, Sigma made enemies of humanity and popped up to cause trouble for X and his companions many times over.

Quote from: Rockman X4 Saikyou Daizukan
そんな彼が、なぜイレギュラーと化してしまったのだろう?あくまで推測ではあるが、イレギュラーだったZEROと戦ったとき、イレギュラー化を促進するウイルスのようなものを浴びてしまったのが原因ではないだろうか。

Just why did he become irregular? There has been much conjecture, but the actual cause could well be from when was showered in some kind of  irregular-facilitating virus during his fight with the irregularly behaved Zero.

Quote from: Rockman X4 Himitsu Daizukan
ゼロのイレギュラーのウイルスにおかされて、シグマは、じゃあくになってしまう。

Invaded by Zero's irregular virus, Sigma became evil.

Every X4 related sourcebook makes a relation between Sigma going evil and the virus infection, some more blatant than others. And then there's...

Quote from: Capcom Unity" link="http://www.capcom-unity.com/s-kill/blog/2008/09/05/inafunesan_answers_your_questions
4) What was the inspiration for Sigma?

KI: Some people think he might have been inspired by Sagat from Street Fighter because of his look, but that's not actually the case.  Sigma and Zero basically represent the idea that nothing is absolute. Sigma was a powerful leader of the Maverick Hunters but after Zero passed the virus to him, his allegiance changed.  Circumstances can change anything, and nothing is absolute.

Inafune sounds confused. Maybe you guys need to explain how Sigma was going to change his allegiance anyway even if he never had the virus. Or more accurately, that Sigma's allegiances never really changed at all, because he was an unemphatic calculating monster from the beginning. It's so obvious! /sarcasm

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As a man without worrying, compassion, hesistation, as a man of logic, that is the conclusion he came up with.

Being decisive doesn't lend itself to being amoral or without compassion. When Cain talks about Sigma not having X's problem of worrying too much, he is not saying that he thinks Sigma is entirely unfeeling or morally bankrupt. His rebellion was as much a surprise to Cain as anyone else.

Quote from: Zan
Sigma's philosophy was first formed by seeing X's justice, before he ever came into came into contact with Zero he already began to think about the imperfections of the world. That philosophy is what binds the new generation.

It's a wonder how or when Sigma ever saw X's justice, especially to say it was early on, seeing as X didn't join the Hunters until after Zero did, which would also be after the virus was already inside Sigma. In fact, unless Cain's speech about X in the Day of Sigma video was a repeated speech from a rambling old man, it doesn't seem like Sigma had much interest in X, his weak justice and worrying et al, before the events of that time just before his rebellion. Which was already in the works before the conversation about X took place, seeing as Sigma's henchmen were behind the mechaniloid hacking at the start of the movie, and according to the chatter at Hunter base was but one in a subsequent series of such events.

It is possible that they did have some unknown conversation or shared experience which divulged X's sense of justice way back at the dawning of the reploid era, and it had such an impact so as to influence his entire train of thought for all points hereafter, then Sigma even after convincing himself that there was no justice in his own actions, he still accepted the job of Hunter commander and performed it for over 2 years without faltering, without complaining or confiding in anyone that we could tell of, and still spouting the same political rhetoric he so loathes as if he believed it. A very long time to bear such a cross, but maybe Redips did it for longer, who knows. It could be.

It's just that the only true support for it is Sigma's dialogue in X8 where he's clearly taunting X, this time his ideals. A statement which could also be explained by Sigma judging X's "justice" after the virus infected him and X joined his group, in scenes such as we see in IHX. After taking effect from the virus. Fueled with evil that needed an outlet, having lost the perspective to which he previously kept, Sigma found something to rebel against. What it is exactly probably doesn't matter to the virus much at all. If Sigma believes the human society, or X's ideals, are what is wrong with the world, it's fine so long as he's convinced enough of its intolerableness. It doesn't even need to be fully justifiable, just strongly believed.

Quote from: Lumine
"It is not the case that Sigma was by any means insane."

Says the clearly excellent judge of sanity. Lumine believes Sigma's choices to be his own in the same way he views his own choices his own, despite his and all the New Gen's awakenings being the result of Sigma's tampering with their Copy Chips. Lumine believes he made a choice to follow Sigma. But he also holds that it is the only correct choice, and all awakened NGs seem to agree. Out of those countless analyzed old generation reploids, out of all their possible ideals and morals, only Sigma's came to a head? That incredible statistic shows that it was in fact a very weighted game, if it weren't clear enough when Sigma took credit for their specific addition made during manufacture. They were not designed to make any other choice. When it comes down to it, Sigma's DNA is as equally vehement as the Sigma Virus that is his true form, and in fact are probably one and the same, just on a much more thorough scale.

Quote from: Flame
In X5 Sigma Died for real. He did not have enough Virus, and could not trigger his revival program. He for all intents and purposes, died for good. If it weren't for Gate, He probably would have stayed that way.

All of which Sigma completely denied, of course. Did he need the help? Had he really died completely? Sourcebooks say yes, Sigma says no. That Sigma was unable to admit his own failing tells us something about him.

Quote
also, Horobe! Its called in fight dialogue. Just like X yelling STOP IT! when he fires his buster in X7. or Zeros comments in CM.

That "Horobe!! Horobe, horobe, horobe!" thing CyberXIII was talking about wasn't move-use related, it was cutscene dialogue. The one that only appears on hard mode, when Sigma snatches your character with Mirage Claw and a brief scene plays out where your partner saves you.

Quote from: Ramzal
Be whatever title they were given, they were humanity's slaves in the X series more than companions.

By setting accounts, the vast majority of reploids and humans lived together in peace. Reploids were integrated into all walks of society. Not just lowly employees or laborers, they were also the site managers, the the factory bosses, the politicians... Reploids even police themselves. The Hunters don't simply exist to protect the humans' rights, but to protect reploid rights as well. An irregular isn't just a threat to humans, it's a threat to everything and anything around it, other reploids included. The Hunters are "both sword and shield to those who cannot protect themselves." For humans and reploids. Employment was up, demand was high. If anything, human laziness accelerated the production of reploids. Why Sigma thinks that humanity is holding them back could be more a question of their "strong and weak are equal" conventions that society is based upon. It is true that their society was not perfect, and injustice did exist. But Sigma's answer to those kinds of injustices is to heap even more injustice on top of it, for both humans and for reploids who don't submit to his rule (and even those that do wind up meeting untimely ends at his orders). Sigma's only consistent ideal is that the strong (being himself) should rule and the rest are the weak, to be used as the strong so pleases.

Quote
Being a murderer or being a mass murderer does not make you insane.

It doesn't help, though. As was said many times already, sane vs insane is a judgment based on a sense of "normalcy" which changes from viewpoint to viewpoint, a call made by the opinions of contemporary experts or of a jury of one's peers...  Sigma's obsession with power, belief in his own superiority, lack of sympathy for others or remorse for any harm caused by him to anyone, going to any length of manipulation, mayhem and murder to achieve his selfish and often perplexing goals. Some experts could well find someone with his collection of neuroses to be quite insane. Lumine thinks it visionary. Maybe it's all true in some ways.

Quote from: Zan
X8 clearly proves that using the DNA of the original Sigma induces the same state of mind as the current Sigma

Where did it prove that? Sigma says he had his own data engraved on the copy chips, but nothing in X8 says that the Sigma data in the copy chip is Sigma's data without any of that viral influence at all. The opposite, the ultimate destroyer's DNA contribution is highly credited. It's mentioned many times that Zero had the potential to be like Sigma and join with the New Gens as well. Why? The virus. Or rather, Zero's original programming. The removal of inhibitions, the desire for the purity of destruction. To become a new world's messiah, Omega might say. But our Zero rejects that path, and so must be destroyed as well.

Quote from: CyberXIII
Sociopath-Antisocial Personality Disorder

Looking it up on Wikipedia, I think there is a very strong case to say Sigma would fall under this disorder's guidelines. Seeing as you only need to meet 3 or more of the diagnostic criteria, and of the 7 they list, only 2 don't sound too much like Sigma. But there is some question in applying that kind of human mental disorder to a reploid. For instance, narcissism among reploids may be easier to justify than among humans, by data analysis reploids could theoretically compare certain exacting specs or rare abilities. Recklessness self-endangerment for humans can result in very final consequences, while reploids who can be repaired from much worse damage than humans may endure, or even swap bodies and be resurrected as Sigma so often does, the consequences of that behavior becomes less severe. Even where circumstances may not apply, I personally think of Sigma as a psychopathic megalomaniac. And will defend that position, if anyone wants to argue.

Quote
What source denotes Neo Sigma as Sigma's FINAL form in X2 and not his first?

I have a lot of books discussing X2, some game guide books and some source book types. Sigma's X2 first form is just called Sigma in every one of them. The only book I have that uses the Neo Sigma for anything at all is the Compendium of X, and it only uses it on the second form of Sigma. I think the credits were simply mistaken in which name they used associated with those meaningless rp numbers. Sometimes the credits make mistakes.



Offline Flame

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Reply #86 on: July 07, 2009, 01:41:57 AM
Now, how can we say that Sigma meddled with the copy chips,and not that the scientists who developed them were just incredibly stupid?

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Zan

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Reply #87 on: July 07, 2009, 01:54:10 AM
Quote
Every X4 related sourcebook makes a relation between Sigma going evil and the virus infection, some more blatant than others. And then there's...
Quote
Inafune sounds confused. Maybe you guys need to explain how Sigma was going to change his allegiance anyway even if he never had the virus. Or more accurately, that Sigma's allegiances never really changed at all, because he was an unemphatic calculating monster from the beginning. It's so obvious! /sarcasm

"Insanity" and "Evil" are two mutually exclusive terms, Marshmallow. That Sigma is going insane is the fan assumption. That Sigma changed seems clear enough; he merged with the Virus and became evil. How that expanded his psyche is unclear, but Sigma makes direct allusions to that fact even within X8. Doesn't mean he went nuts and is insane.

I would say that as a man of logic, Sigma would accept the conclusion he came up with. But during his hunter times, his compassion was still a bit higher than it is today, so based on that compassion, he rejects his own philosophy.

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It's a wonder how or when Sigma ever saw X's justice, especially to say it was early on.

My honest mistake, I had the mistranslated Xtreme intro in the back of my mind when writing. You're right, Zero joined before X. And at that time, X was still doubting himself.

Quote
Being decisive doesn't lend itself to being amoral or without compassion. When Cain talks about Sigma not having X's problem of worrying too much, he is not saying that he thinks Sigma is entirely unfeeling or morally bankrupt. His rebellion was as much a surprise to Cain as anyone else.

Of course, it doesn't, but it makes quite an easy jump from that to how he is today.

Quote
Where did it prove that?

Well, the body is most certainly his original one in a new design, saber and everything. However, that not saying if its before or after the battle with Zero. Perhaps because Zero's Virus seems to have slightly changed Sigma's DNA, there's the aggressive reaction which causes the awakening of the New Generation. But when it comes down to it, the most vital point is that though they have Sigma's DNA, a connecting with the Virus is not required to achieve the same state of mind as Sigma.

Quote
Now, how can we say that Sigma meddled with the copy chips,and not that the scientists who developed them were just incredibly stupid?

I honestly don't think Sigma meddled with the copy chips, rather, he became interested after his own DNA was included, deciding to make good use of it. Redips on the other hand most likely meddled with Copy Chip production to once again include the awakening process. Of course, we must also question who is behind the New Generation in general, however did the government come to acquire something that was once exclusive to Axl?





Offline Flame

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Reply #88 on: July 07, 2009, 02:35:22 AM
Maybe Axl was made by them too? He is a prototype. Maybe He was a purposely made prototype? They came up with the theory of the copy chip, and tested it. They created Axl.
yknow, that could shine light on Axl.

his connection and differences with NewGens.

Lets say he was a secret experiment. They test him for  while, and deem him a failure due to his ability being so incredibly limited that it would not be useful. What if he was originally developed as an infiltration unit?  Someone who can imitate any target, and well, basically, ever watch the Zeta Project? But his ability was considered not good enough for the job. They decide to terminate him? Axl fights back, of course, but nearly gets killed. He runs into Red and he sees him and for whatever reason, saves Axl. Losing his eye in the process.

Eventually, those new type of Reploids are improved, and it they develop the idea of including the DNA already on the Copy Chip. They then realize that they can be multipurpose. For any type of work because of their ability.
the Jakob project comes up, and they are put right on it.

theres really no foundation behind that at all, but what do you think of it? could explain Axl's scar and Red's eye. As well as Axl's lost memory of before he met Red.(trauma. Hey, [parasitic bomb] works for Zero, so why not?)

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


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Reply #89 on: July 07, 2009, 02:43:50 AM
My best guess would be that Copy Chip production, being a very significant and very complex undertaking, was originally classified and remained so until sometime between X7 and X8.  Nothing in X7 says that Axl is the prototype for a new line of Reploids, that knowledge didn't come until X8.

Where did it prove that? Sigma says he had his own data engraved on the copy chips, but nothing in X8 says that the Sigma data in the copy chip is Sigma's data without any of that viral influence at all. The opposite, the ultimate destroyer's DNA contribution is highly credited.
But how does Sigma's DNA, which is to say the X1 body's DNA, relate to the virus?  That Sigma tampered with Copy Chip production is his own statements, that he would have tipped the scales in doing so is a reasonable assumption, but that in and of itself doesn't necessarily denote a virus-related strategy.  Sigma's no stranger to other means of coercion, as we've seen in X4 and X7.  Selectively choosing which enemy gloating to accept and ignore hardly justifies the position, either.

It's also incorrect to assume that the X8 Mavericks have no reservations about what they're doing.  Confront Dark Mantis as Axl sometime, he admits to being jealous of Axl's innocence.

Speaking of Axl, one has to ask how he fits into this.  Where is the line drawn between Axl and the finalized New Gens?  If the cause of their Maverick behavior is viral, is this to say that Axl, the prototype, has greater antiviral abilities than the finished models?  Lumine, when asked on this topic, responds with "Sorry, but prototypes like you don't have the specs to pull something like that."  Most all of the New Gens and Sigma are well aware of the fact that Axl has no potential to join them, so why?

The primary difference between Axl and the finished New Generation Reploids is that the copy ability was perfected.  It's not so far a stretch to think that Axl's limitations (prior to Command Mission, anyway) are what denies him the ability to achieve the likeness with Sigma that the other New Gens do.

There is such a thing as one who goes Maverick of their own accord, as Sigma outright states in MHX when he releases Vile.  So the possibility cannot be denied, and the idea that Vile would share that theme with Sigma, Lumine, and the New Generation Reploids goes a long way to explaining his presence in X8.

Quote
It's mentioned many times that Zero had the potential to be like Sigma and join with the New Gens as well. Why? The virus. Or rather, Zero's original programming. The removal of inhibitions, the desire for the purity of destruction. To become a new world's messiah, Omega might say. But our Zero rejects that path, and so must be destroyed as well.

Zero in his awakened state (X5) cares nothing about the outside world, not even the Mavericks.  He is focused solely on one goal: X.  The phrase "new world" means nothing to him.  Omega's personality is not Zero's original programming.  Inticreates left some ambiguous possibilities of a linkage but confirmed nothing, and even if such a link did exist, Omega would still be a derivative work.

Sigma is certainly thrilled by the idea of awakening Zero's true self, going so far as in X2 to claim Zero was destined to follow him, but can we honestly believe that?  When a voice in Zero's head is encouraging him as he's about to hunt down Sigma in X6?  Sounds like somebody was being played.

Are we honestly to believe that Zero, and by extension Wily in X-series timeframe, wishes to remold the world when Wily sealed Zero until such time when he could challenge X?  When after an allegiance with Sigma to unlock Zero's true potential, leaving the world in shambles as a side-effect, Wily simply drops off the face of the Earth?  I don't buy that.

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Sometimes the credits make mistakes.
True enough, I recall the Ostro/Birdo mixup.  I guess we'll have to leave it at that.

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KI: Some people think he might have been inspired by Sagat from Street Fighter because of his look, but that's not actually the case.  Sigma and Zero basically represent the idea that nothing is absolute. Sigma was a powerful leader of the Maverick Hunters but after Zero passed the virus to him, his allegiance changed.  Circumstances can change anything, and nothing is absolute.
Inafune is merely stating a sequence of events, not a cause and effect (although the implication is there, it's not directly stated).  He did fight Zero, the virus was passed to him, and his allegiance did change.  That the second caused the third is a logical assumption but still an assumption.  As for the X4 book quotes, given that X8 is supposed to be a revelation on a possibility that the Hunters, and the vast majority of the fanbase, left totally ignored, why is it anyone's surprise that older sources don't sync with it?

The virus, regardless of its effects on Sigma's judgment, was key to his role as leader of the rebellion.  That he sics Vile on X in MHX on the sole grounds that he can go Maverick of his own accord says that such a phenomenon, while possible, is exceedingly rare.  Sigma needed the virus solely for gathering support if nothing else, to say nothing of giving himself near immortality.  It definitely affects his abilities, and perhaps it did affect his judgement, but that doesn't mean he can't draw the same conclusions.  Philosophy is one thing, implementation is another.  If he decides that Reploids would develop ideally without humans, how far is he willing to go to see it happen?  Would the virus change that?  Would a space development production line churning out new allies change that?

You see how the virus making him evil, ruthless, etc., does not necessarily mean that the virus is responsible for his belief in Reploid superiority.

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Offline CyberXIII

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Reply #90 on: July 07, 2009, 05:12:09 AM
I still believe Sigma was at least a sociopath.  Oh, and now to ask another question:

Reploids are able to determine right and wrong for themselves without the need for outside programmin, correct?  If so, what's stopping them from non-violently establishing their own country?  Like what Repliforce wanted, but done right?

Second: am I the only one who thinks that human intelligence took a sharp decline during 21XX?  Creating robots that can perfectly mimic something as dangerous as Sigma, even if theoretically that shouldn't turn them evil, is a dumb move.  Cue mass identity theft.

EDIT: Where did you get that Mirage Claw attack name?

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Reply #91 on: July 07, 2009, 05:32:50 AM
Reploids are able to determine right and wrong for themselves without the need for outside programmin, correct?  If so, what's stopping them from non-violently establishing their own country?  Like what Repliforce wanted, but done right?
Remember the rebellion army. They were not maverick (not all of them. the main 3, Scarface, Ferham, and Epsilon are hard to determine as maverick besides rebelling against the government.) All the humans were simply banished without harm and forbidden from returning to Giga City, and when Scarface appeared to challenge the Hunters, he didnt hurt anyone either. They didn't harm civilians, Human or Reploid. they only fought against those who tried to stop their goal. in other words, self defense. There is also no real indication that Epsilon would have actually launched big Force metal missile. The way I see it, it was just a threat.
Epsilon tried to Win X and Zero over nonviolently before fighting. Trying to get them to understand their Ideal. Shadow and Botos were pretty far from the goal though, just craving power. whats his name the triceratops was pretty bad himself. Being a sadist, and not a really nice guy.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Gotham Ranger

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Reply #92 on: July 07, 2009, 06:24:46 AM
Holy crap, look at all those walls of text.



Offline Flame

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Reply #93 on: July 08, 2009, 03:07:41 AM
has reploid racism been used in the series?
Dr. Weil says hello.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


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Reply #94 on: July 08, 2009, 05:14:29 AM
Weil wasn't born until after most of this mess was cleared up.  Still, I'm willing to bet most humans shared his sentiments, and those of Area Zero. 

I wonder if Siggy and Lumi are dead for good...doubtful.

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Reply #95 on: July 08, 2009, 07:17:55 AM
Lumine is most definitely dead. How would he come back? He's not Sigma, he does not have the Virus.

also, the Humans? Take a look at the Government in the X series. They contradict themselves at every point when it comes to Reploids. X and Zero hold special interests, so they are never questioned, but Gate makes a Reploid just as analyzable as either of them, and it is feared and disposed of. Gate himself is shunned because they cannot understand his research. Games like X6 give very interesting insight onto how the Government views and treats Reploids. They were made from the start as slaves to the humans. Servants who would forever be with them. The perfect workers.  Then, some rebell, and they create a military force to deal with them. Reploids are disposable, as more can be made.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


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Reply #96 on: July 08, 2009, 11:26:28 AM
Reploids are able to determine right and wrong for themselves without the need for outside programmin, correct?  If so, what's stopping them from non-violently establishing their own country?  Like what Repliforce wanted, but done right?
Any who would think of it would be deemed maverick by the by now more-than-slightly paranoid community, even if they were pacifist like X. Under other circumstances, it might've worked.

Quote
Second: am I the only one who thinks that human intelligence took a sharp decline during 21XX?  Creating robots that can perfectly mimic something as dangerous as Sigma, even if theoretically that shouldn't turn them evil, is a dumb move.  Cue mass identity theft.
I dunno, there are reploid researchers, who's to say one of them groups didn't do it?



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Reply #97 on: July 08, 2009, 02:32:29 PM
Quote
Lumine is most definitely dead. How would he come back? He's not Sigma, he does not have the Virus.

Uh... taken a good look at X8's ending lately? You really think what happened there is normal for a Repliroid? Something completely non mechanical emerged from his corpse and put something inside of Axl; it is almost certain that he will be back.



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Reply #98 on: July 08, 2009, 04:31:23 PM
Doesnt mean anything... If anything, It has just affected Axl, maybe a catalyst for something. It is odd that in Command mission his copy ability has evolved to the lengths it has. Lumine's influence and the Newgens will show up ahain, but im not so sure about Lumine himself.

Posted on: July 08, 2009, 10:31:02 AM
Also, what do you propose of my hypothesis, Zan? About Axl?

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Zan

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Reply #99 on: July 08, 2009, 04:49:31 PM
Quote
Doesnt mean anything... If anything, It has just affected Axl, maybe a catalyst for something. It is odd that in Command mission his copy ability has evolved to the lengths it has. Lumine's influence and the Newgens will show up ahain, but im not so sure about Lumine himself.

Thing is, you're stating that Lumine has no way to come back; he does. What happened there is completely out of the ordinary. Why would something non mechanical emerge from his body? For all we know, that is the very Virus you're saying they can't use. Remember, the New Generation might be immune to the negative influence of the Virus, but they also have Sigma's DNA; why would they not be able to make use of it?

Quote
About Axl?

Literally everything could have happened to Axl in the past... But, I would say Axl is more valuable than that; his Sigma Virus immunity is complete... I doubt they would risk losing that if they themselves produced it. There has been shown to be fear for unanalyzable robots, to the point of hunting them down, which is why I personally have taken a liken Rodrigo's assessment that Gate could be related. But that leads us to the same end; Axl being hunted down and saved by Red, leading to Red's lost eye.

However, I think there's much more to Axl than just that. He feels related to X and Zero; his true personality emerges during the hunt. This connection makes me think it's much more than the Copy Chip being a result of the study of X and Zero's data. Maybe Axl was once related to X and Zero, maybe Axl was once a hunter?

Also, the immense relation between the Copy Chip and X and Zero actually seems to rule out Gate.. he never quite analyzed X and Zero and he never obtained his dream of a Sigma Virus cure.. But what of Gate after X6? Of course, that brings us back to square one; what's Axl's lost memory and how did Red lose his eye?

Finally, another something of note is the scar on Axl's face.. it was said to be the most important aspect of him in the story after X7... so what is up with that scar?..