RockmanPM Forums
Other Things => Gaming => Topic started by: Da Dood on December 30, 2008, 04:51:33 AM
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Some of mine...
Makes
- Objective freedom: I can't get bored if my ultimate goal is to create my own playthrough.
(Main reference: Super Mario 64)
- Path planning: Same as above, only somewhat more strategic.
(Main reference: Mega Man, Star Fox 64)
- Interaction variables: Player-enemy, weapon-environment, whatever!
(Main reference: Mega Man X2, Devil May Cry)
Kills
- Unskippable cutscenes: The sole reason why I don't play Ocarina of Time once a week.
(Main offenders: OoT, Mega Man Zero)
- Mandatory artificial fetch quests: The sole reason why I don't play Wind Waker once a week...
(Main offenders: WW, Metroid Prime 2: Echoes)
- Mandatory tutorials: I don't need to learn how to jump on my 8th run!
(Main offenders: Super Mario Sunshine, Okami)
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Well, let's see:
Makes:
- Customization: Yeah, you think Starfox 64 was good? Imagine if you could customize your ship to SFCommand levels.
(Main reference: F-Zero GX, Custom Robo, it's an element in most RPGs)
- Pacing: Nothing like grabbing a quick star or speeding through a stage to get you addicted.
(Main reference: Super Mario 64, Sonic Adventure 1, Kirby Superstar)
- Secret Bosses: And this is the sure-fire way to ens
(Main reference: Kingdom Hearts 1, Megaman ZX, Megaman Battle Network series)
Kills:
- Cheap Deaths: Nothing says "Hey, stop playing me" like needless spikes or some surprise you couldn't have known about.
(Main reference: Super Mario Bros. 2 JP, MMZ2)
- Overly Random: It's one thing to mix up the gameplay; it's another to not think it through.
(Main reference: Mega Man 1 Helipads, Randomly-generated dungeon crawlers)
- Chase segments: It's just a mood-killer, especially when you WERE having fun exploring.
(Main reference: Sonic 3 and Knuckles)
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The same thing that Makes or Kills anything I do in life lately...
...time.
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The same thing that Makes or Kills anything I do in life lately...
...time.
This is the truth.
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Well my main "turn off" so to speak is having to play through a game over and over again just to get something. Or something to that effect.
The biggest one ever to me was when i was recently playing Sonic Advance 2 for GBA (i don't own it, just rom+emulator), and well after I beat the game for my first time, I found out that in order to access the secret special level ...you gotta beat the game with every character, and get all 7 chaos emeralds for everyone ...fuuuuck that. :( I could never even get 1 emerald on that game, it's way too hard, i just can't do it. Where you gotta get 300 rings in 2 minutes.
So i cheated by downloading a savestate with everything unlocked. :(
I hope i can bare doing some of those challenges i looked at for mm9 such as "beat the game 5 times in 24 hours" ...geeez. :(
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Getting all 7 emeralds for every character in Sonic Advance 2 was one of my proudest achievements way back when it first came out. I enjoy watching the cute and sad intro for the Extra Zone before turning into Super Sonic. When Cream started cry for her mom, that moment when Sonic transformed, gave his thumbs up and flew away was so thoughtfully, adorably cool. Those kind of cutscenes are so great and doesn't next text to makes you excited and dragged into them.
Then you manage to rescue Vanilla and it was only by a hand-reach that the day was saved. And I think some of you admit that Vanilla is pretty good-looking. She totally has it going on~ (http://enterpraiz.deviantart.com/art/Cream-s-Mom-Has-It-Going-On-37264976)
A lot of members have seen me beat Rockman 9, 5 times in a row, in 24 hours on my live stream channel. It shows that it's manageable. ^^
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Makes:
The pinball golden rule: If the game is simple yet rewarding, and every time you lose it's your fault, people will be instantly addicted. This rule aplies to videogames like Donkey Kong and Pacman.
Personalize: Nothing makes a game funnier than naming and designing your characters, every time you replay the game your're not doing it only for the sake of the game itself, you want to improve and see your sons and daughters evolve. See X-com and final fantasy tactics. The more you can personalize, the better.
Unlock and explore: Unlock customes, levels, characters, find new abilities and skills, ect. Sometimes i even replay bad games like the force unleashed only to see what else i can unlock and use. Banjo Kazooie anyone ?.
Kills:
The very opossite of the pinball rule: if the game kills you in unfair and frustating ways rather than because errors or mistakes that you made, no reward, therefore no fun.
If the game is linear as hell there will be no reason to repeat it. Hell, when i began playing Captain Commando i decided to finish it only for the sake of playing complete it at least once and not replaying it again. People likes variety.
Excess of complexity: If the game is too complex and confusing, people will be alienated and won´t feel happy to replay that crap ever again.
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I like what 'Tales of...' games do. Instead of giving you a simple New Game+ function, in which all your stats and equipment carry over, you can "buy" features for your new game with grade earned in your previous playthrough. Works as a great motivator, at least for me.
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I think that we can all agree that the most important thing that makes replay value is fun. Seriously, if it wasn't fun who would be replaying it? It doesn't matter what extra content there is, as long as you have fun playing then you will find yourself replaying the game over and over.
I hope i can bare doing some of those challenges i looked at for mm9 such as "beat the game 5 times in 24 hours" ...geeez. :(
You can cheat in that challenge (replaying only the final levels 5 times will get you the achievement), so don't worry too much about it. If you want to worry about a challenge, worry about "Mr. Perfect" >____<
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I think that we can all agree that the most important thing that makes replay value is fun. Seriously, if it wasn't fun who would be replaying it? It doesn't matter what extra content there is, as long as you have fun playing then you will find yourself replaying the game over and over.
thread over.
though i will add when a game forces you to play it over and over again, it's replayability comes into question. Shadow The Hedgehog comes to mind.
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Well, of course a game should be fun above everything... ::)
This is just about the usual staples or features that tend to pull you back or push you away. Ocarina of Time is fun. I rarely replay it, though, because I have to sit through hours of annoying cutscenes and two-line text skipping.
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back in the day, i would play OoT a couple times. same for Majora's Mask, to a lesser extent. but now, i probably won't ever touch the games again.
length is a factor in replayability. Mega Man games can be beaten in an hour most of the time. same goes for the Genesis Sonic games, old school Marios, and most Castlevanias. there are some longer games i could pick up and play anytime. No More Heroes comes to mind. but things like Final Fantasy VII, X, and Kingdom Hearts? i'll never touch them again.
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You can cheat in that challenge (replaying only the final levels 5 times will get you the achievement), so don't worry too much about it. If you want to worry about a challenge, worry about "Mr. Perfect" >____<
Oh did not know that would be possible. About just having to go through wily isntead of start the game all over, okay then :) Cool.
Wow mr. perfect huh? Beat the game without being damaged once. Yikes that sounds like "almost" impossible.
Also i can't wait to try the "super hero" mode sometime in the near future. I hope the enemy placements and stuff are actually different, unlike say in Megaman 2 US, where picking the hard difficulty only just meant it takes more hits to kill enemies and nothing else.
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back in the day, i would play OoT a couple times. same for Majora's Mask, to a lesser extent. but now, i probably won't ever touch the games again.
length is a factor in replayability. Mega Man games can be beaten in an hour most of the time. same goes for the Genesis Sonic games, old school Marios, and most Castlevanias. there are some longer games i could pick up and play anytime. No More Heroes comes to mind. but things like Final Fantasy VII, X, and Kingdom Hearts? i'll never touch them again.
Speak for yourself. I still play OoT and MM. Those are classics. Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts? Oh, yes! I love those games. Also, it takes me hours to play through a Mega Man game to get frustrated and give up. >>;
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but things like Final Fantasy VII, X, and Kingdom Hearts? i'll never touch them again.
I've got KH1 and FFVII, still. Even FFT.
On occasions, I start new files, and enjoy 'em again.
But you're right in that I don't "replay" them as often as I would platformers or other genres, simply because finishing a longer RPG is very draining and involved, and you may want to wait a while before doing it again.
Then you manage to rescue Vanilla and it was only by a hand-reach that the day was saved. And I think some of you admit that Vanilla is pretty good-looking. She totally has it going on~ (http://enterpraiz.deviantart.com/art/Cream-s-Mom-Has-It-Going-On-37264976)
Sorry, I couldn't hear you for all the latex.
(see: attachment)
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Speak for yourself.
that's what i did.
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Megaman X command mission killed its replay value with the fact that once youve beaten the final and secret bosses, theres really no one left to give you a challenge...
sure, Redips is still there, and I can still fight him a gazillion times, but hes easy and boring. (and so are the boss remaches...)
cuz the thing is.. Once youve defeatedthe entire Tails clan, you KNOW your strong
I wish that the tails clan would regenerate over time, and youd have to fight them again.
then things would be more interesting.
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Megaman X command mission killed its replay value with the fact that once youve beaten the final and secret bosses, theres really no one left to give you a challenge...
sure, Redips is still there, and I can still fight him a gazillion times, but hes easy and boring. (and so are the boss remaches...)
cuz the thing is.. Once youve defeatedthe entire Tails clan, you KNOW your strong
I wish that the tails clan would regenerate over time, and youd have to fight them again.
then things would be more interesting.
True, but that's nothing new. A lot of JRPG bosses disappear when you beat them.
Though I would point to Kingdom Hearts and a some Tales of games that let you fight some of those fights over and over again.
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Makes it:
Addicting music.
(Main reference: MegaMan 3, MegaMan Xtreme 2)
Chaotic and explosive customization.
(Main reference: Super Smash Bros.)
Fun boss fights.
(Main reference, even if painfully easy: New Super Mario Bros.)
Multiple ending rewards.
(Main reference: Metroid Zero Mission)
Fanboyishly orgasmic characters.
(Main references: Smash Bros., MegaMan 9, Wii version of Godzilla Unleashed)
Strong arsenal/power-up selection.
(Main reference: MegaMan X6)
Additional replay content.
(Main reference: Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn)
Levels that are fun to blast through.
(Main reference: Sonic Adventure 2)
And because it *MUST* be said:
Super Forms
(Main reference: Sonic 3 & Knuckles)
Breaks it:
Inferiority complex; the game has to do SOMETHING better than its predecessors, even if not everything.
(Main offender: Yoshi's Island DS)
Aggravating power-up distribution.
(Main offender: MegaMan X5)
Aggravating lack of power-up retention.
(Main offender: Super Mario Sunshine)
Mundane level design.
(Main offender: Super Mario Sunshine)
Attempting and utterly failing to properly utilize the MOST BASIC FEATURES OF THE CONSOLE.
(Main offender: NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams, that pointer is terrible)
Over-emphasis on memorizing levels over rewarding one's reaction time.
(Main offenders: Sonic Riders, MegaMan 9)
Ear-splitting sound/music.
(Main offenders: MegaMan Xtreme1, and that GBC Animorphs game whose subtitle escapes me)
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there was actually an Animorphs game?
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You want a bad example of replay value that should never be followed? Shadow the Hedgehog, 'nuff said. -_-
Good example-wise, I can't really draw anything up other than "the game is fun enough to play again." And now adays, many games are kinda one-shot deals unfortunately, not counting multiplayer. :(
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And now adays, many games are kinda one-shot deals unfortunately, not counting multiplayer. :(
That's to make sure people will continue buying new games instead of playing the same old ones over and over again. They do it on purpose.
As for the topic... well, as long as it's completely optional, and the game is fun, then it's all good for me. But if I'm forced to replay it (Shadow >_>), then it's not really all that great.
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Shadow would have worked if they had axed the boss fork at the final 5 stages. 5 endings should have been plenty, and you'd have at least had a few new stages with each play. But noooo, they gotta force 10 freaking replays on you. Ludicrous.
Well, at least the Last Story is kinda worth it. Chaos Controlling through otherwise blocked passages was awesome.
there was actually an Animorphs game?
Three. One for GBC, one for PS1, one for PC.
The GBC is a watered-down Pokemon knockoff with complete lack of direction, all dark/muddy visuals, and ear-piercing sound. I couldn't even bear to force myself through one stage.
The PS1 is a fundamentally flawed concept of locking you in human form through an outrageously hard platformer with very awkward physics. You morph only for the occasional battle, and two on-rails swimming/flight stages. That one I did finish, maybe I was more motivated since it was a rental.
The PC is nothing epic, but at least passable compared to the other two. There's a lot more freedom, and a generally more faithful interpretation, at least.
Ax and Tobias are NPC on GBC and PS1. I'm not even sure if Ax is in the PC game at all, while Tobias is, if I remember correctly, available in some limited fashion.
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Over-emphasis on memorizing levels over rewarding one's reaction time.
(Main offenders: Sonic Riders, MegaMan 9)
that's a gross exaggeration. aside from the spike trap at the beginning of Splash Woman and the grabber robots in Galaxy Man, MM9 isn't any more dependent on memorization than other Mega Man games, or most any game for that matter.
X Play gave X8 a 2/5 because, to paraphrase, the levels require you to play them over and over again, dieing thousands of times, just to learn what to do. they grossly exaggerated too. no one should be dieing that much in X8; it's not a trap-infested game. but even so, you really expect to be able to go through the entire game on the first shot without dieing? it's part of the problem solving process. it's part of learning the game.
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that's a gross exaggeration. aside from the spike trap at the beginning of Splash Woman and the grabber robots in Galaxy Man
That in and of itself is enough for it to take a back seat to other MegaMan games in terms of level design. But I don't think the game is terrible; I did list reasons MM9 gains replay value too, you know. And I could definitely list more, but my post was getting pretty long as it is. The game's good, I just don't think it's AS good as the rest of the internet proclaims.
The grabbers aren't exclusive to Galaxy Man, either; you find them again in Wily's Castle and Endless Attack.
Bear in mind you are talking to a man who scored a No Damage Clear on Avalanche Yeti. I'm not against a challenge, and of course some degree of trial-and-error is part of the game. But MM9 was out of balance.
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I'm sorry, but I have to throw in my two cents here. For example, MM2 had plenty of instances of memorization ingrained in it. Hell, if you didn't know how to beat one of the bosses, or you miss with even one shot of the CLUSHBOMB, you have to start the whole level over, more often than not having to let yourself get killed repeatedly since you can't do anything for the remainder of your lives. I'm sorry, but MM9 didn't really have anything quite as bad as that.
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Also in shmups memorization is very important (if not the most important). One wrong move, and BLAM!, there goes your high-score.
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There's nothing wrong with memorization, and cheap deaths don't necessarily destroy balance. Failing is a natural part of any game's learning curve as far as I'm aware. The problem is when the game doesn't allow you to adapt to what just killed you. Why would people ever play Contra if it's all memorization and cheap deaths? People keep trying because they learn and advance a little bit every time, and it feels rewarding because memory is by definition a skill.
In MM9 you shouldn't ever have a problem with grabbers or Splash Woman's spikes after that one recon trip, same way you shouldn't ever complain about Quick Man's lasers once you find out about Time Stopper. If we had to start the game over that would be a different story, but you always respawn two rooms before and with proper knowledge.
This happens in every single decent videogame you can think of. You won't be an expert in Street Fighter II on your first play. You have to memorize moves, study your favorite character's speed and animation, pay close attention to how your opponents will fight and learn how to counter each of their moves. You will fail a whole lot in the process. SFII is a landmark of game balance regardless of that. In Devil May Cry you do need fast fingers, but more than anything you need that brain database to identify audio and visual attack cues.
Personally I think Mega Man relies very heavily on memorization since day 1, it's not exclusive to MM9 or any other installment.
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Oh yeah, no question.
But then, Mega Man doesn't die. Ever. He has come close to it in endings, but that's it. As far as gameplay goes, he doesn't. So then, the player shouldn't either.
But even if you don't follow that school of logic and accept that the character is just that good whereas you're not expected to be as such, then there's still the matter of it killing the fun. Quick Man's lasers. You would have to know that layout in order to survive. Now considering they're "security lasers", it makes sense (wait, why don't we have those deadly things IRL?), but it's just further frustration to the player. And it's not a matter of having one screen come up quickly and then you can hopefully plan your path; there's 1 or 2 parts where if you fell down the wrong way, or not far enough, you start over.
This is where multiple modes of difficulty come into play, I believe. Easy or Normal for a fun feel to it, then Hard for a genuine challenge. Go too far (some Treasure games' Hard Modes, most shmups, DMC's insane modes, etc.) and then you kill the interest except for the absolutely OC or SM types.
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I'm sorry, but I have to throw in my two cents here. For example, MM2 had plenty of instances of memorization ingrained in it. Hell, if you didn't know how to beat one of the bosses, or you miss with even one shot of the CLUSHBOMB, you have to start the whole level over, more often than not having to let yourself get killed repeatedly since you can't do anything for the remainder of your lives. I'm sorry, but MM9 didn't really have anything quite as bad as that.
The Crash Bomb management is not memorization, it's basic mathematics. Unless for some reason you were using it before the fight, that is. Even so, all you have to do is camp on your next life.
Also in shmups memorization is very important (if not the most important). One wrong move, and BLAM!, there goes your high-score.
And if MegaMan was a shmup, that would mean something.
In MM9 you shouldn't ever have a problem with grabbers or Splash Woman's spikes after that one recon trip, same way you shouldn't ever complain about Quick Man's lasers once you find out about Time Stopper.
I know, but that's the problem!
Now my poor brother Mario thinks he's a monkey!
Once you have memorized MM9's layout, there's not a whole lot left to the game (sans DLC; I'm talking about the core package). It's otherwise dirt simple. That's the imbalance. I don't mind hard or easy games, but that specific combination comes off as unrewarding.
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I'm not really sure what weakens replay value for me, so I'll just go for what makes it...
- Non-linear level path/choosing your own way; a lot of games can still be fun when you have to go a linear path, but making your own is always more fun. If they have open levels for you to explore to your heart's content, even better!
(Main references: Super Mario 64, most Mega Man games)
- After-game goodies and bonuses; so you know that, even when the game is over, there's lots more stuff to do and find.
(Main references: Tales of Symphonia, Disgaea 2)
- Fun boss fights; the kind of bosses that are either fantastically quirky, well-designed or just make you want to try them again.
(Main references: Sonic 1-3, Mega Man series, some Mario games)
- Gripping storyline/characters; there are a few games out there that really got me involved in the story and characters, and when the game was finally over, it became something of a bittersweet moment (until I went back to get the aformentioned hidden goodies!)
(Main references: Tales of Symphonia, Disgaea 2, No More Heroes)
- Arcade-style fun; simple, quick-paced action with enough addictive value and chances to try again that keep you coming back for more.
(Main references: Gunstar Heroes, Full Metal Alchemist: Dual Sympathy, Guitar Hero: World Tour, Mario Party series)
- Customisation; why do what the game wants when you can make your own characters and stages?
(Main reference: Super Smash Bros. Brawl, some RPGs)
- Heaps of beloved characters; need I say more?
(Main references: Super Smash Bros. series)
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The Crash Bomb management is not memorization, it's basic mathematics. Unless for some reason you were using it before the fight, that is. Even so, all you have to do is camp on your next life.
Let me put it this way. This very situation is the reason I usually refrain from using special weapons in stages in any MM game. I was screwed over enough times by that part that it just pissed me off. Anyways, my point was that you can't possibly know the first time through the game about it, and it's much worse than the MM9 stuff.
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Hmm....
Makes:
- Fun Factor: If the game is fun to play (i.e. beating generic henchman to a pulp doesn't get old) then I'll replay it.
- Examples: The Bouncer, Silent Bomber, Dynasty/Samurai Warriors series.
- A sense of progression/Multiple choices: By this I mean an interesting story with branching paths.
- Examples: The Bouncer, Skies of Arcadia
- Post-game Carnage: Lots of extra stuff after the end, like hidden dungeons or bosses
- Examples: Tales of Symphonia, Kingdom Hearts (I've never played this, so I can't vouch for it, but...)
Kills:
- Unskippable Cutscenes before boss battles: Normally this occurs in games I like, which is something of an irritation.
- Examples: Legend of Dragoon, Most Final Fantasy games.
- Unbalanced enemies: If this is Lu Bu in Dynasty Warriors I'm not bothered, because you don't HAVE to fight him in most cases. Generic enemies with insta-kill moves, however, = Fail
- Examples: Final Fantasy series.
- Battle System: (This one may contain spoilers for those who haven't played FFIV DS)
[spoiler] - For example, the ATB System used in the Final Fantasy series, particularly FFIV. Allow me to relate a scenario that occurred when I playing this game a few days ago.
*Boss battle with Golbez starts, my party is still a little banged up from the fight with Calcabrina. Cecil only has about 600hp left*
Me: *waiting for a bar to fill up so I can actually do something*
*Golbez initiates scene where everyone except Cecil, who is still paralyzed from Golbez' attack and has not had a chance to heal, dies*
Me: This isn't good....
*New scene, Rydia appears, cures Cecil of paralysis and joins the fight. Golbez puts his barrier up and Cecil and Rydia's bars start to fill*
Me: Alright, revive as many as I can, then find a way through the barrier.....
*Before any member of my party even gets a turn, Golbez casts Bio and kills everyone who isn't already dead. GAME OVER*
Me: *unprintable string of curse words*[/spoiler]
That last one in particular is a real killer for me.
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Let me put it this way. This very situation is the reason I usually refrain from using special weapons in stages in any MM game. I was screwed over enough times by that part that it just pissed me off. Anyways, my point was that you can't possibly know the first time through the game about it, and it's much worse than the MM9 stuff.
Is there ANY other reason to use Crash Bomb besides the walls in Stage 2/3? Or did you just not bother to restore it?
I would think the worst part would be Bubble Lead being required on the final boss; there are no enemies to camp should you run out. First time, rusty reflexes/timing, possible abuse against earlier bosses, I could see where that could cause an issue. Crash Bomb can be restored, it's just tedious to do so.
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Those specific segments in mm2 and some of the Rush segments in mm3s Doc Robot stages are the reason why Capcom should have just included a regenerating pinwheel...
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Is there ANY other reason to use Crash Bomb besides the walls in Stage 2/3? Or did you just not bother to restore it?
I would think the worst part would be Bubble Lead being required on the final boss; there are no enemies to camp should you run out. First time, rusty reflexes/timing, possible abuse against earlier bosses, I could see where that could cause an issue. Crash Bomb can be restored, it's just tedious to do so.
I just never restored it, because I had no idea I needed it that badly. The last boss didn't go quite as bad for me, actually. But yeah, I think you got my point.
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I'll let DZ post it here about what kills replay value since our opinions are the same. It has a "five" in the title.
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Those specific segments in mm2 and some of the Rush segments in mm3s Doc Robot stages are the reason why Capcom should have just included a regenerating pinwheel...
There is no reason you should be running out of Rush energy in MM3 unless you're doing it on purpose, or just plain careless. There are only two Jet-required areas and there are MORE than enough weapon power-ups to get you through multiple times. The idea is you're not supposed to grab them if you don't need them, but I'll admit that cutting back and having what's left regenerate wouldn't be a bad thing.
Still, I never ran out of Rush Jet. And this is back in the childhood days when my trial-and-error skills weren't developed enough to figure out what the hell worked on Snake Man.
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The Crash Bomb management is not memorization, it's basic mathematics. Unless for some reason you were using it before the fight, that is. Even so, all you have to do is camp on your next life.
And if MegaMan was a shmup, that would mean something.
I know, but that's the problem!
Now my poor brother Mario thinks he's a monkey!
Once you have memorized MM9's layout, there's not a whole lot left to the game (sans DLC; I'm talking about the core package). It's otherwise dirt simple. That's the imbalance. I don't mind hard or easy games, but that specific combination comes off as unrewarding.
You know how HARD it is to camp in that stage?
Any game becomes easy after memorization. Even Star Fox 64 has that element.
But the Hero and Superhero modes, I eventually wound up buying because I'll never want to memorize three layouts, which should keep the game interesting. One layout, two layouts; second nature. Three? Too much to keep up with.
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You know how HARD it is to camp in that stage?
I didn't say it was easy, I said it can be done. I know, I've done it. As opposed to the final stage which absolutely cannot be camped, no matter how hard you may try.
Any game becomes easy after memorization. Even Star Fox 64 has that element.
You have a keen sense of the obvious. However, I made that statement as a matter of severity, not as an absolute.
But the Hero and Superhero modes, I eventually wound up buying because I'll never want to memorize three layouts, which should keep the game interesting. One layout, two layouts; second nature. Three? Too much to keep up with.
As I already said within it, my last post was written within the context of the core package, not DLC. DLC worked wonders for MM9. Endless Attack, which would have been heaven if not for those damn claws, and Proto Man were both wonderful.
Hero and Superhero were welcome additions, but IMHO too little too late. There's really no reason anybody should have to purchase extra difficulty levels separately, and while an extra buck of Wii points won't break my wallet, the extra wait for early adopters was a killer. No player, least of all the hardcore who are most likely to make that early purchase, should have to have their hand forcibly held for a month before a proper challenge is permitted. Great content, bad strategy.