RockmanPM Forums
Rockman & Community => Rockman Series => ZX => Topic started by: Thanatos-Zero on September 21, 2009, 06:50:30 PM
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I played Rockman ZX and Advent again and I have often asked myself in that time of playing, if the R.o.c.k.men can keep up with the originals like X, Zero and the four guardians.
Are they equally strong or just true shadows of them?
However gameplay elements just showed me, that they represent not their true powers.
For example Rockman's Weapon Copy ability which also X used. In theory Model X would gain Falseroid DNA which would result as a new weapon. As for Zero's EX Skills, he would gain as Model Z new technics based of the Falseroids.
Lets take Fistleo as a good example. Would Zero defeat him in battle, he would gain a firebased airdash with invincibility(Flamestag X2 and a waterbased one from X5) as a new EX Skill.
You surely know what I mean, don't you?
<Wii>
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We haven't used the Z biometal, but it looked more powerful than Zero was, albeit lacking a ranged weapon.
X biomerged can move and double charge shot at the same time, so that's an upgrade - but as you say, no weapon copy. Also, no airdash, nor armor upgrades or other customizable items.
Big4 is hard to say as we haven't played as the originals, and we only get copy/double rock on variants - copy H/Hx certainly can't fly as much as Harpuia, P can't do much in the ways of illusion or trickery, F doesn't seem to have as much raw power... not sure about L. Spinning halberd would've been a useful trick.
A guns are nothing like what they used to be, and also lacks airdash (and hovering). On the other hand, it has a giga attack, and the copy ability seems to be "complete", entirely turning into bosses instead of using their weapons. Though now it's unusable on regular enemies.
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Dunno about X. We never saw Inti's version of X in action unless Copy X is a perfect copy down to the battle skills.
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But even then we have not seen Copy X fight without his battle armor.
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I always considered the model x double rockon as change into new armor since the resulting designs aren't that different from model x.
I suppose those, if model x was to defeat an enemy pseudoroid, then we would get some kind of extra ability; though it would most likely go to the most appropriate form. ie, elemental type attacks would go to Hx, Fx, Lx, or Px; while melee attacks would go to Zx, or maybe you could get different buster charged attacks like we would normally expect.
Model Z would most likely get different techniques, although he could also get different types of weapons like in X8. Maybe all the weapons that we're available in the zero series?
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Just one question: Whith who is it easier to beat the Z3 bosses? Using Zero or Model ZX?
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I thought it was easier with ZX, but it's probably because I didn't worry about getting hit once and losing S-rank level.
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Just one question: Whith who is it easier to beat the Z3 bosses? Using Zero or Model ZX?
You forgot that the Damage Formular is different from Z3 to ZX.
However do a TAS if you wish.
Edit:
Would Zero have his old equipment from Z3 in ZX, he would finish the bosses faster than ZX does.
Also not to forget: His Kuuenbu deals 2 Points of Damage per hit, while ZX does only 1 Point.
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Beating Omega is also easier with Zero....altough maybe it´s because the ZX version is stronger?
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Beating Omega is also easier with Zero....altough maybe it´s because the ZX version is stronger?
No, because Zero couldn´t chain his charged Bustershot, his Kuuenbu and his Trible Slash in Z3 to a combo. In ZX he would [twin slasher] Omega even more than usuall.
Just a little footnote: Vent/Aile´s new moves in Advent do less damage than the Rising Saber and the Saber Trust from Z2, 3 and 4.
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I forgot, but doesnt ZX have the spinning slash do multiple hits, and the Z3 version not?
also, one factor is that Omega Heals himself in ZX, but did not in Z3, and, he doesnt flinch unless attacked while in the air, whereas in Z3, you could peg him with the regular pea shot on the ground and he would flinch.
Also, Ultima foot chip.
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I forgot, but doesnt ZX have the spinning slash do multiple hits, and the Z3 version not?
It does, but it doesn´t allow you to chain Trible Slash, Rising Saber and Saber Trust after the execution.
Let me explain the Damage Barrier Formular of Z3.
Bustershot (uncharged): 0
Orbit Shield Boomerang: 0
Bustershot (Charged any Level): 1
Charged Saber: 1
Charged Shield Boomerang: 1
1st Slash: 1
2nd Slash: 2
3rd Slash: 3
Rising Saber: 4
Saber Trust: 5
Kuuenbu: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ( Any following station of the Kuuenbu rotation has a higher number, so can´t use Kuuenbu on the boss again so soon, if you hit it with the last station of the move, which has 6 for breaking through the Invincible frames. You have than to wait for the end of the Recovery time. When you use 5 for example you cant hit the boss with a trible slash or with the same move again. If you want to cause more damage, than hit it with a higher number. )
Stab Saber: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
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Why not just fight the Z3 bosses when comparing to the ZX fights with only the saber and buster, and matching EX Skills? Zero had a wider arsenal and more experience in the first place in both story and game mechanics anyway, though, so it's not the greatest comparison. :\
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wasn't Kuuenbu the double jump?
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wasn't Kuuenbu the double jump?
Partially in X4, but the double jump existed before Zero was created. Forte uses it in Rockman& Forte as a diffault move.
I prefer to call the Spinning Slash as Kuuenbu, hence it has its roots in that technic.
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Beating Omega is also easier with Zero....altough maybe it´s because the ZX version is stronger?
ZX version is definitely stronger. Not having to be fair to the player (what with being placed after a final stage and 2 final bosses) did that.
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Partially in X4, but the double jump existed before Zero was created. Forte uses it in Rockman& Forte as a diffault move.
I prefer to call the Spinning Slash as Kuuenbu, hence it has its roots in that technic.
AH! That makes sense.
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I find it funny how the lack of VWS/Learning System is used as justification for Biometals being weaker than the original when in fact Zero had the exact same problem in Z1.
This thread has mostly revolved around game mechanics, which can make the exact same character weaker or stronger for no reason at all (case in point: the charged saber between Z3 and Z4).
So far as how the Biometals compare to the originals, Models X and Z didn't seem all that impressive to Serpent and PnP, who were already familiar with the Big Four Biometals. However we all know that Zero, and we can safely assume X, outclass the Big Four. That being said, Zero and X both took time and weren't considered all that extraordinary in their early days. It took time for them to gather experience and power before they truly became a force to be reckoned with. I suspect the same holds true for a Chosen One attempting to use the power of their respective Biometals.
In terms of game physics, each has their own strength. It should go without saying that ZX has the far superior buster shot, however Zero had the more powerful charged saber (although as mentioned above that power diminished a bit in Z4 but was still superior to ZX). Zero also gets longer reach with his saber. So there's ups and downs to both. But I still say that a lot more could have been done with Model ZX if the series hadn't been canned.
I prefer to call the Spinning Slash as Kuuenbu, hence it has its roots in that technic.
The slash (in X4) is Kuuenzan.
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I think between originals and Livemetals, the only thing we really could go by is boss patterns of the Big4. It's very noticable how Helios doesn't seem capable of free flight. However, I don't think the livemetals are that much weaker than the originals, it's mostly just that they're different. But if I were to make a wild guess, I'd say Double Rock On is a requirement for them to reach the same level of power as the originals.
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It's very noticable how Helios doesn't seem capable of free flight.
In battle. He is capable of flying (or at least hovering indefinitely) in cutscene.
I'm rather tempted to dismiss such similarities as sprite-conservation. You'll notice that Thetis swerves in manners that are impossible for the player to duplicate. He has the sprites to travel in all directions. Aeolus does not, he can't "dive" through the air the way that Harpuia did, and it doesn't take too much of an angle before air-dashing looks awkward.
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So far as how the Biometals compare to the originals, Models X and Z didn't seem all that impressive to Serpent and PnP, who were already familiar with the Big Four Biometals. However we all know that Zero, and we can safely assume X, outclass the Big Four. That being said, Zero and X both took time and weren't considered all that extraordinary in their early days. It took time for them to gather experience and power before they truly became a force to be reckoned with. I suspect the same holds true for a Chosen One attempting to use the power of their respective Biometals.
I think Vent and Ail kinda prove that in ZXA. they have abilities that they didnt have in ZX. Split heavens and the downwards saber stab. (name escapes me)
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Model X wrecks everything.
And that's unarmored, X2 buster. Granted, it might be a more powerful, hotter shot, but it has the same design.
Someone dissect the Model ZX and Omega battle. That should give some kind of indicator.
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Omega is a secret boss, so it makes sense for him to be stronger.
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Granted, it might be a more powerful, hotter shot, but it has the same design.
Charge physics between Inti's games and the SNES heavily favor Inti no matter what character you're talking about. In the SNES your default charged shot strength is 4 times your normal shot strength, with only 2x damage on a boss. In Zero/ZX, it's 6 times normal strength, with the full multiplier against a boss.
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Charge physics between Inti's games and the SNES heavily favor Inti no matter what character you're talking about. In the SNES your default charged shot strength is 4 times your normal shot strength, with only 2x damage on a boss. In Zero/ZX, it's 6 times normal strength, with the full multiplier against a boss.
Not to mention that in the SNES games, dashing buster shots were the same strength as armorless charged shots.
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I like to believe that the Originals are still stronger. Though the new breeze of heroes have potentials to match up or even surpass the Originals. But still, Aile & Vent are in the process of mastering their Livemetals lol they took 4 years to come up with those saber EX Skills in ZXA so as the other chose ones. The Level of Livemetal mastery varies from the span of possession and their natural skill.
Then obviously Big4 > HxFxLxPx & Small4.
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Well, when we think about it, X and Zero are still there. the originals are still there. If there's one thing that Zero himself has proven, is that The body really doesnt matter, as long as the heart is the real thing. ZX pretty much is the same. theyre still the ones fighting, with Vent and Aile as their vessels. same for the other big 4, (In ZX1 anyway)
so the originals we're talking about are still there, and are still the strongest.
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Charge physics between Inti's games and the SNES heavily favor Inti no matter what character you're talking about. In the SNES your default charged shot strength is 4 times your normal shot strength, with only 2x damage on a boss. In Zero/ZX, it's 6 times normal strength, with the full multiplier against a boss.
Ofcourse, Inti has a fondness for boss lifebars that overlap a gazillion times.
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lol, indeed they do. But I prefer it more over the X series gargantuan lifebars that go off the screen. They're pretty intimidating sometimes.
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Well, when we think about it, X and Zero are still there. the originals are still there. If there's one thing that Zero himself has proven, is that The body really doesnt matter, as long as the heart is the real thing. ZX pretty much is the same. theyre still the ones fighting, with Vent and Aile as their vessels. same for the other big 4, (In ZX1 anyway)
so the originals we're talking about are still there, and are still the strongest.
I have to disagree. The real X became a Cyber elf and ran out of power after the events of Z3, returning to Cyberspace permanently. If Zero truly died in the destruction of Ragnarok, than his Cyber elf would have either stuck around for awhile or simply passed onward into Cyberspace as well.
Ciel herself had nothing of the original duo to use when she made Biometal X and Biometal Z, as noted in game, so she had to use Biometal/Ragnarok Core W for the process. She may have programmed the two Biometals as close as possible to X and Zeros personalities, but they don't have the "heart" or "soul" of the originals as you put it.
Damn near close considering how much time she spent with Zero, but still not the same as the original.
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The real X became a Cyber elf and ran out of power after the events of Z3, returning to Cyberspace permanently.
You're making a vital misconception here. When X used too much energy, he felt his own consciousness melt away into the electronic abyss, he was dying. Had X died there, he would not have been a Cyber-Elf, he would have just been inanimate data. However, X fought back. With his will, he desired to continue living with everyone else and thus barely avoided death.
X became much like Phantom, a ghost stuck in the interim between life and death. That Phantom witnessed Vile's Incident in this state and in Cyberspace learned all truths. That Phantom can also be found in ZERO3 as a mysterious Cyber-Elf in the Resistance Base that calls out to Zero to do battle. That is the limit of Phantom's capabilities in the real world. In a very similar manner Elpis can be found at the Resistance Base as well, seemingly contemplating his sins of the past. X exists in that exact same manner, a Cyber Elf that can no longer interact with people in the same way he did before. Likewise, even Harpuia, Leviathan, Fefnir and Zero exist in this exact same state. Not quite alive, not quite dead, witnessing the changing of the world until their powers are once again called upon to save the world.
Ciel herself had nothing of the original duo to use when she made Biometal X and Biometal Z, as noted in game, so she had to use Biometal/Ragnarok Core W for the process. She may have programmed the two Biometals as close as possible to X and Zeros personalities, but they don't have the "heart" or "soul" of the originals as you put it.
Damn near close considering how much time she spent with Zero, but still not the same as the original.
I think you're misunderstanding what the First Commander was getting at.
Model V is that soul of that man contained in the fragments of Ragnarok. This statement on Model V defines the very concept of a Livemetal; a metal that has life.
The other Livemetal were created using the data she obtained on the legendary heroes. The "data of Vile" was switched with the "data of legendary heroes." The data of Vile inside of the Livemetal is his very soul.
As Prairie stated, Livemetal are fragments that contain the consciousness of legendary heroes. Their consciousness is never stated to be copied, it's instead explicitly said that it's the exact same consciousness of those that fought centuries ago.
A Repiroid's consciousness is nothing else than a Repliroid's personality program. When discussing Omega's personality program IntiCreated defined "personality program" as "Cyber-Elf". A Cyber-Elf has also been defined as a soul. Other definitions include "sentient program with created with pure energy in the image of elves" and "program life object." Being programs, they can also be seen as "data obtained from..."
Elpis, X, Phantom have all been described in the above manner, and we have reason to suspect the same applies to many others. Six in particular of those exist in current time as Livemetal. If you don't quite get this just yet, those Livemetal are also said to have abilities like Cyber-Elves.
In other words, all of this applies to that which is inside of the Livemetal. Data, consciousness, personality program, Cyber-Elf, soul. All of those words are synonymous. The Legendary Heroes that fought "that man" centuries ago have all transcended death itself. Those legendary heroes did indeed witness the changing of the world till the day came that their powers were called upon.
Using Model V at the base, the First Commander succeeded in giving them a new material form as Livemetal. However, she did not understand all of Model V. The part she did not understand was the Livemetal's unique features; the transformation into a Rockman that is limited to a chosen one. Therefore there's the innate danger that the chosen one who uses the Livemetal can also use Model V.
I honestly don't see where you would get the idea of "copies" from. The entire ZERO-series rams into one's skull that the original is superior to a copy. The original body is stronger than the copy body and the original heart is stronger than the copy heart. In the clash of original body vs original heart, the heart came out on top. There's no way to copy X and Zero, you'd just end up with another Copy-X or Omega.
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I want ZX3 already.
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Hey, one thing, since X and Zero died and entered cyberspace, where all data is, they would likely, like Phantom, come to "learn all truths". Wouldn't this mean that, (If they hadn't found it out before when they were alive), that they would have realized their pasts, their purpose, and their creators? X would come to know he was created by Dr. Light, come to know of such memories as his conversing with Light, (though didnt he know about his creation by Light's hands ever since the X series?)
and Zero would learn of his Creator being Wily, and of his own conversations with him during creation, and his original purpose?
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Even though all data ends up in Cyberspace, searching specific truths would be like finding a needle in a haystack. Or rather, trying to find sentient life on another planet somewhere in this infinite universe. Phantom was only capable of finding out that much information because it revolved around the matter at hand. He learned of the copy body, but even then, Phantom missed certain key elements such as Zero's original soul still being present.
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Having been promptly crushed into oblivion beneath not only Zans wall of text, but his(?) superior knowledge on subjects of which I have only the english released games to guide me with, I will bow out and rescind my prior comments and hence forth retreat from such matters.
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Right...
Only having the English version is no excuse for misinterpreting what's said in the game.. Afterall, a whole damn lot of which I said comes from the English release.
The only exclusive info being:
-Personality Program = Cyber-Elf. (TELOS, interview on Omega)
-Cyber-Elf = Program Life Object (TELOS, written in English on Cyber-Elf genealogy)
-Elpis and Phantom Cyber-Elves (ZERO3, E-reader, is translated and obtainable by hacking.)
-Livemetal have abilities like Cyber-Elves (Japanese ZX guidebook)
-Retrospect1:Elf Wars (TELOS, drama track)
-Retrospect2:Dreams Never End (TELOS, drama track)
For the latter, the drama tracks from TELOS have nearly all been translated:
http://geocities.com/protozantetsu/RTRZTelos1.txt
Likewise, I can easily supply you with the other quotes so that there'll be no more "I only have the English release" excuse.
But to reduce my previous wall of text to its simplest form... Thanks to Hypershell:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-kmcXwsafw 4:10.
Prairie didn't say "consciousness" in that version, rather she said "tamashi", meaning soul/spirit. Which proves that we are indeed dealing with the originals.
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Internet. Serious Business. You rather thoroughly pointed out how wrong I was for relying on memory of events I haven't read through within the last several months. Are you through now? I admit I was wrong. You win. Feel better on the inside?
Ye who not knows the power of Zan can not fathom what shall happen next.
i.e. Dude, Zan knows the most about the Mega Man universe than anyone on the site and is highly respected, just stop while you're ahead.
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Plus he was just pointing your out on your already uncalled for sarcastic comment.
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The first post after Zans' wasn't sarcasm, Flame. I'm the newb to Zans Vet, I'm not going to fight against this level of information when I'm so obviously wrong on the subject matter.
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The first post after Zans' wasn't sarcasm, Flame. I'm the newb to Zans Vet, I'm not going to fight against this level of information when I'm so obviously wrong on the subject matter.
Just stop, at least for your sake. If there's nothing else you have to comment about the subject prior to, and not the details surrounding it, just drop it and continue your merry way.
fixed <.<
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>merry
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Internet. Serious Business. You rather thoroughly pointed out how wrong I was for relying on memory of events I haven't read through within the last several months. Are you through now? I admit I was wrong. You win. Feel better on the inside?
The first post after Zans' wasn't sarcasm, Flame. I'm the newb to Zans Vet, I'm not going to fight against this level of information when I'm so obviously wrong on the subject matter.
It simply irked me that you excused it with: "I don't have access to all sorts of obscure info" instead of just "I remembered wrong."
There's no shame in recalling something wrong. But if your issue is not having access to obscure info, then take the opportunity to learn about it so that we're all on the same level. There's not that much obscure info to deal with, so it can easily be supplied for all those that wish to see it. Doing just that, I tried informing you of the exact sources of the more obscure facts.
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It simply irked me that you excused it with: "I don't have access to all sorts of obscure info" instead of just "I remembered wrong."
There's no shame in recalling something wrong. But if your issue is not having access to obscure info, then take the opportunity to learn about it so that we're all on the same level. There's not that much obscure info to deal with, so it can easily be supplied for all those that wish to see it. Doing just that, I tried informing you of the exact sources of the more obscure facts.
I apologize for being rude to you in one of my previous posts, and having taken some time to get over the anger it incited at the time, I thank you for providing me with the information required to correct what I remembered wrong.
Concerning the topic at hand, I do not feel that the Livemetals have shown the same results as the reploids they were based on/use the souls of at present. If we ever get a ZX3 that moves the time line forward, perhaps that potential will be demonstrated fuller, but as of ZXA the Livemetal chosen ones still have room to grow through experience compared to the originals.
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So then humans can "play God" and create souls? For Reploids?
I really doubt that, but it is possible in that universe's canon. Even so, it makes sense, then, that the human race was destroyed by its own creations for doing so.
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If we take for an axiom that the 6 heroic live metals contain the actual literal souls of the former heroes... Once they're back in the world of the physical, there's nothing to say that they will remember what they knew as ghosts in the data-stream. Souls grow and change with experiences, our minds find memories and lose them. The LMs are programmed by Ciel, and depending on how well she was able to resurrect their souls, some changes may have happened, and similarly, can conversely be intentionally changed as well. For whatever reason they have forgotten the time of their creation as live metals, they can also forget other information.
I don't think the original souls of the heroes control their users or engage in the battle in any way. When Vent is fighting, Vent is literally doing the fighting. The Live Metals offer their strength to those whom they believe in, and can offer advice and moral support. But in effect once their powers are given to the chosen one, that power is the chosen one's to use and do with as they please. X's vast battle experience isn't immediately transferred to Vent and Aile, just the main skills and the ability to use them. They can turn their arms into cannons and aim it, but when to shoot, what to aim at... they are in control. They must still learn how to fight well, as Giro mentioned.
As far as who's stronger among heroes, that's something good guys never worry about, and circumstances tend to change anyway. The heroes grow in strength and experience, and sometimes also ebb. The games often follow the cycle of the hero growing stronger to rise to a challenge, but once the deed is done powers such as X's armors and special weapons are often returned or disappear in some manner. Thus the heroes have lows and peaks of power, though the current apex of their power may always be trumped in the future. Under certain conditions X and Zero have both suffered losses, even against each other, but persevere such incidents and go on to grow even stronger. Technologically and combat skill-wise, Model X and Model Z already dwarf what our heroes were capable of starting out in the X1 timeframe, so they have a certain advantage at their beginnings. As the ZX series heroes continue, they too should reach even greater heights of power.
In my personal opinion is that while Model ZX doesn't have the total power of both Zero and X's full contingency of peaked powers, I think the powers it does contain, brought out effectively with a combined with a skilled and motivated user, can accomplish the same feats of heroism X and his friends have done in the past, and hold their own in the footsteps of many of their adventures.
So then humans can "play God" and create souls? For Reploids?
Humans have been "creating" souls in other humans since the dawn of the species. If some spiritual element is responsible for the souls in every human being despite the fact that other humans are the ones physically conceiving and producing other humans, then that same spiritual force can be behind inducting souls in robotic life.
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Humans have been "creating" souls in other humans since the dawn of the species. If some spiritual element is responsible for the souls in every human being despite the fact that other humans are the ones physically conceiving and producing other humans, then that same spiritual force can be behind inducting souls in robotic life.
Granted that both are Divinely-approved (if that applies) methods of soul...creation, recycling, however you view it.
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Humans have been "creating" souls in other humans since the dawn of the species. If some spiritual element is responsible for the souls in every human being despite the fact that other humans are the ones physically conceiving and producing other humans, then that same spiritual force can be behind inducting souls in robotic life.
This is a perfect way of explaining it. Nicely put.
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Dude, you necroposted, and although it's not my place to notify you of it, I just felt the need to.
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If you know you're not supposed to do it, why still do it? We got it covered, man. Leave the modding to us, kay?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v92/Satoryu/clushlocktab.gif)