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Offline Jericho

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on: September 22, 2009, 03:55:08 AM
Everyone here can remember a time when certain game franchises began. They burst onto the scene and offered us experiences that were either new and different (revolutionary even) or old fashioned, "tried and true" and classic. As time went along however, while some of these games went on to achieve incredible highs and receive numerous accolades due to their gameplay, some seemingly became victims of circumstance. When everything else went off and got bigger and better, these franchises seemed to get bigger but not necessarily for the better. Others simply disappeared and never got a second look or re-thinking.

This thread is for those franchises and game series that have seemingly lost their way or been neglected and are in need of a "pick-me-up". Now of course, since this is an internet message board, our opinions have a slim to nil chance of being heard. The fun is in seeing what others might think a good solution might be after all.

Also, since we all have wildly varying opinions and tastes, the responses here will probably get kinda hectic. For the sake of keeping a good discussion going though, I'd like it if posts in here would be well thought out and somewhat organized. For example, see below.

TL;DR - This thread is where all of us amateur designers or simple series enthusiasts mention what it is that our favorite series that have come upon rocky roads need to get ack on track. I'll start with something that I started in another thread, namely the StarFox series when I get back, but for now, I hope you all can enjoy this thread. Now then, discuss!



Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #1 on: September 22, 2009, 04:58:21 AM
The first thing I thought of was this Game Overthinker video.  Though it's not so much that Metroid has gone "bad", but that it doesn't really stand out anymore.  That fits, right?



Offline Fxeni

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Reply #2 on: September 22, 2009, 05:34:26 AM
StarFox's current problems lie mainly in the execution. StarFox is known mainly for it's corridor Arwing gameplay, and we've been getting less and less of this as time goes along, which in essence ruins the feel of the game completely. It's not as far off the road as other series though (Sonic immediately pops into mind >_>').



Offline Keno

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Reply #3 on: September 22, 2009, 05:40:18 AM
I like new Sonic games.



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #4 on: September 22, 2009, 06:18:53 AM
Kid Icarus.

Just a couple thoughts on how I'd remake the franchise-icus.  First and foremost, it would be a 3D Style Adventure game.  However, we need to get all mythological up in this [sonic slicer]-icus.  Granted, it may seem like another Zelda game, but who the [tornado fang] cares.  Not me, since I like Zelda games!  Anyway, first off, Pit would fly.  Not some of that power up flight only stuff, or anything like that.  No, all flight, all the time.  To me, this would give the possibility of grand level design, as both the heavens and the underworld would be explored.  When I think Kid Icarus for the Wii, the first thing that pops into my mind is a new age of aerial 3D TPS Combat-icus. 

I'm not a game programmer, but since I'd prefer to use the Mote-Chuk Motion Plus combo for controls, my suggestion would be that Flight would be handled with the Nunchuk controller.  The C button allows for jumping, lifting off, and flapping wings for ascension while flying.  The Z button would be ducking, and descending while flying.  Combos of the C & Z buttons, as well as analog stick movement, would be used for some nifty-icus aerial maneuvering.  The Wii-Mote would be used for the weapons.  Obviously, Palutena's Bow would be his primary weapon from the get-go-icus.  Lock On/No Lock On would be an option in the controls, but Pit's 360 eyesight movement would be handled with the + Pad.  If Lock On is switched on, double tapping the +, in one direction, would lock on to an enemy harpie.  Simply hitting the + pad will de-lock.  The B Button would fire Light Arrows and the A Button would pull out Pit's Mirror Shield (A & B button commands can be switched).  By pressing the 1 Button, or by putting the two ends of the Wii-Mote & Nunchuk together and pulling them apart, Pit will split his Bow into two Swords.  The Wii-Mote & Nunchuk both represent a sword you can swing.  Pressing the 2 Button or by putting the two ends of the Wii-Mote & Nunchuk together would re-attach the swords into a Bow. 

Personally, I don't see the need to add new weapons to Pit's arsenal-icus, but just have technique upgrades and such.  Maybe different flight sword combos, combined spinning sword & shield combos, etc.  Regarding story...well I haven't thought of that-icus.  Probably something involving a war between the Underworld & Skyworld, Palutena in danger, Medusa on the rise, yadda yadda yadda, and so on.  Maybe even Pit leading Palutena's Army against hordes of harpies, attacking Skyworld and such.  Maybe even add some more cast to it.  Another heroic figure-icus?  LoL, who knows.  Either way, this would be what I'd look for in a new Kid Icarus game.  That's just me though.



Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #5 on: September 22, 2009, 07:40:05 AM
Nintendo's in need of a new IP that would boost the character and series pool for good, and I can think of no better series than Metal Combat. However, there is the little matter of how said characters would work in Smash.

So here's the nitty gritty.

It's 200 or so years in the future from Metal Combat: Falcon's Revenge. Giga-Desp has long since been trashed, and the galaxy has been at peace for a very long time. Surrounding galaxies are stunned and appreciative of the defeat of the Eltorian Empire and lend Earth a hand in its economic recovery. With fiscal policies and commercial infrastructure restored, in addition to the environmental and political influence of neighboring civilizations, Earth has flourished and has even become a more stable planet geologically speaking. Every decade, there are commemorative ST fighting tournaments which serves a dual purpose: a conference of the most advanced fighting machines in that sector of the galaxy, and, of course, public awareness/celebration. In this newest iteration for the Wii, Metal Combat: Tercel Factor, you play the role of 19 year-old Keith Mollard, a relatively new ST pilot that received general military training and has largely self-taught his way to the top due to a lack of finances that would have allowed him to attend higher-league academies. This tournament, your first bout, a Tutorial Match, is against Keith's rival, 22 year-old Zane Eugene, a member of the prominent Eugene family that continues to aid in funding many of the ST Training Academies. Keith is deeply upset by the fact that the utmost training is still dependent upon money, that all soldiers can't perform their civic duty to their full potential, and is eager to defeat Keith to prove that the current system is flawed. So eager, in fact, that he becomes more and more agitated as Zane gives him a tutorial on fighting basics before their match. Zane did not mean for it to be condescending; he merely intended to make sure that his opponent would be some sort of a fair fight. Keith is too upset to hear Zane out, however, and the battle begins. In this battle, you can lose or win. Either way, Keith and Zane share an exchange shortly afterwards.

But it's brief. Zane's ST Hurrican disappears in a flash of light. An extreme attack has destroyed over half of the participating ST's and severely damaged the rest, and ground zero was the exact spot where the Hurrican was located. The Eugene family is divided regarding the rightful position of the Eltorian Empire and have declared war on the entire Solar System in the hope of conquering it. Their initial attack was a three-pronged message: the declaration of total war by indiscriminately destroying various representative ST's, the destruction of Zane who represents the less ambitious and supposedly weaker side of the family line, and the destruction of the ST Tercel, Earth's secret weapon, to prove their intelligence network.

We find out that Keith and the ST Tercel were teleported to safety by a cyborg named Alor. To Keith's shock, Alor reveals that the ST Tercel is indeed the ST Falcon that has been upgraded over the centuries in secret in just such an event that Earth might one day need another savior. The UN immediately declares Keith and the ST Tercel the only appropriate soldiers for the task, regardless of the outcome of the game's opening match. You are not alone, however; those same neighboring civilizations each have their own representatives. Unfortunately, no one can decide which ST is the strongest, so each civilization agrees to hold friendly challenge matches against one another, and the last ST standing will commence the first wave of attack with the other ST's being repaired and upgraded as backup should the lead ST pay the ultimate price.

The ST Tercel is unique in that it can be customized; in fact, if you so choose, you may dismantle the ST Tercel and use bought parts to create Keith's own ST and begin his own legacy, but the name stays. Now, one drawback of most customization schemes is that they are typically dramatic upgrades. Golf games, Mario RPGs, Devil May Cry, etc. Not so in this game; they are nominal enhancements or, moreover, preference-based options. Such examples would include shields that are controlled by the Nunchuk, detachable Kamikaze body parts that will reduce your HP for more damage, more fragile but more powerful weapons, uniquely styled bodies that have extra functions such as jumps, larger bodies that take less damage but get hit more often and vice versa, etc. You will be able to give your ST Tercel its own look due to what parts and engines you decide to use in addition to its own color scheme. To put it simply, a better version of F-Zero GX's customization in that the standard-blueprint ST's and Tercel are not far superior to any user-created combinations.

Game plays pretty much the same way as the previous installments, except for some differences. You can have a shield, though, and again, that's controlled with the Nunchuk. You may opt for movement via the Nunchuk's stick or auto-pilot. A secondary white square inside your visor and field of view will clearly represent the shots your ST will avoid if they fall outside that box; again, this depends upon your evasive speed and ST size. Be warned, shots are not forward-directional anymore; shots are now angled. Though you point at one spot of the screen, the angle at which you hold the Wii Remote WILL affect the shot's ultimate destination.

ST's are single-piloted and much smaller, usually only slightly larger than heavy-armor battle suits. In Smash, this would approximate to only slightly above Bowser's height. This eliminates size considerations.

[spoiler]Alor is Rola. Same ST, too. Zane and the ST Hurrican are available after beating the game. Alor also rescued Zane, and he'll have a story mode where you'll cross paths with Keith. Easy, Normal, Real difficulty modes. No ranking, but there is a secret boss, the ST Tornado; Rola's and Carol's genetics were used in creating clones and more members of the Eltorian race, and Carol was cryogenically frozen by the evil side of the Eugene family and Eltorian empire as a backup specimen. But yeah, she'll use the upgraded Tornado, with newer Treble Hyper Shot and a Bomb or two on ya; tooth-and-nail fight.[/spoiler]

EDIT: I wrote all that?
Nintendo, hire me already!!!



Offline Jericho

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Reply #6 on: September 22, 2009, 03:52:22 PM
Kid Icarus.

Holy [tornado fang], this idea is sexy. XD



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #7 on: September 23, 2009, 11:56:53 PM
StarFox's current problems lie mainly in the execution. StarFox is known mainly for it's corridor Arwing gameplay, and we've been getting less and less of this as time goes along, which in essence ruins the feel of the game completely. It's not as far off the road as other series though (Sonic immediately pops into mind >_>').
I don't think there's anything wrong with taking Star Fox outside of corridors (who DOESN'T love SF64), but it should still remain within the ship (bad, Assault, bad!).  Also, if they are going to focus on "all-range" the way SFCommand did, they need to realize that arcade-style controls don't cut it outside of corridors.  Besides the lack of a traditional option (bogus), I was very disappointed with the fact that you cannot manually roll your ship, AT ALL (even the SNES allowed 90-degree tilts).

Also, keep the speed up.  Even Assault's ship segments weren't that great, they were too damn slow.  I played the game again and again in store demos trying to convince myself to buy it, and I just couldn't.  We're flying sci-fi jets, for crying out loud, they're supposed to MOVE.



As for Sonic, well, we could make a whole thread on that alone.  Here's some pointers, all things taken from the 2D era that can easily be applied to 3D, and yet for some reason aren't:
-SUPER SONIC IN STAGE REPLAYS.  If you cannot do this then GTFO.
-All stages should fork.
-Extra characters are fine, but their abilities should be useful enough to set them apart (offender: the varying teams in Sonic Heroes) WITHOUT disrupting the core Sonic gameplay style (offender: Were-hog).  Think Tails in SA1 except without the mandatory short-stage race.  Every character should be able to play any stage (barring the mandatory Super Sonic final boss).  Character-exclusive forks within the stage, however, are acceptable.
-Feel free to re-use stage textures if it'll help, but DO NOT tell us that a 3D game exclusive to speed-type characters cannot be done.  Heroes and Shadow already proved otherwise, they simply failed in their execution.
-Never underestimate stunts, regardless of whether or not they involve player input.  We still like our loops, corkscrews, running across water, etc.

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Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #8 on: September 24, 2009, 12:03:41 AM
-All stages should fork.

Precisely why Sonic CD is the best overall game. There's one clearly fastest path, but the stages are short enough that you might actually bother to find it and have fun doing so, especially when the unlocks are tied to the Time Attack.

Random thought, and it may not be any good at all, but:

What about tying the Chaos Emeralds to how quickly you can beat an Act/Zone/Boss, etc.?
There is the whole "you have to go back and replay the stages", then, but I think that was true with the Sonic Advance games, anyway. And still true if in Sonic Heroes, Sonic 3 and Knuckles, or the Rush's if you goofed up.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #9 on: September 24, 2009, 12:09:12 AM
You had to goof pretty badly in S3&K, though.  If you scour the stages you can get all emeralds within two zones.
I suppose "ranking" being related only to clear time and not some god-forsaken score formula is one thing I did like about Secret Rings.  But IMHO an unlockable that major which requires "perfect rank everywhere" is overkill (oh, SA2 and its cruel cruel All-A emblems...).  The emeralds Sonic 2/3/K, the emeralds heavily impact the game's replay value.  The necessity to earn them is fine, but it should be reasonable, not super-elite.

Incidentally, I regard S3&K and not SCD as the best game.  But whatever, personal preference.

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Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #10 on: September 24, 2009, 12:13:18 AM
S3&K just has too many mood-killers like Hydrocity, Marble Garden, and Sandopolis Act 2's.

Sonic Team's ranking and times as of late have been sheer insanity, no doubt. Getting all A-Ranks and/or Emblems in any 3D game has been nigh insanity. If you were to tie unlocks to the Time Attack, make it an "overall" score like Sonic CD did, or at least make it reasonable.

HEAR ME, SONIC TEAM?!

REASONABLE!



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #11 on: September 24, 2009, 12:16:14 AM
S3&K just has too many mood-killers like Hydrocity, Marble Garden, and Sandopolis Act 2's.
*gives Aldo ZEE UPPERCUT!!*

Are you [tornado fang]ing NUTS?!  Marble and Sandopolis I can understand (although they are enjoyable when you get the hang of it), but HYDRO CITY?!!  That zone is freaking awesome!

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Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #12 on: September 24, 2009, 01:22:47 AM
*gives Aldo ZEE UPPERCUT!!*

Are you [tornado fang]ing NUTS?!  Marble and Sandopolis I can understand (although they are enjoyable when you get the hang of it), but HYDRO CITY?!!  That zone is freaking awesome!

Only that wall at the beginning of Act 2, but I'm slowly getting over that.

LOVE THE SLIDES



Offline Fxeni

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Reply #13 on: September 24, 2009, 01:28:14 AM
I don't think there's anything wrong with taking Star Fox outside of corridors (who DOESN'T love SF64), but it should still remain within the ship (bad, Assault, bad!).
That's pretty much what I meant. Most of the new Star Fox games lack a good Corridor/All-Range ratio.



Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #14 on: September 24, 2009, 02:30:07 AM
That's pretty much what I meant. Most of the new Star Fox games lack a good Corridor/All-Range ratio.

What is that ratio, anyway?

80% On-Rail, 20% All-Range? I think SF64 was a little heavier on the All-Range, including boss battles, but I say it needs some lightening.



Offline Fxeni

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Reply #15 on: September 24, 2009, 02:40:19 AM
What is that ratio, anyway?

80% On-Rail, 20% All-Range? I think SF64 was a little heavier on the All-Range, including boss battles, but I say it needs some lightening.
SF64 was fine, that ratio seems to work well. Everything after that kinda overdoes it with the All-Range. Also... On-foot = BAD.



Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #16 on: September 24, 2009, 02:47:48 AM
SF64 was fine, that ratio seems to work well. Everything after that kinda overdoes it with the All-Range. Also... On-foot = BAD.

It did work well, but that's only because the All-Range modes were often the stage for the most epic scenes. Assault fell apart when the All-Range was used for hum-drum sniping of target enemies, save for the most fun part of the entire game:

Star Wolf dogfight.

On-foot...has been bad in the past, though I think like LoZ and Metroid, it would benefit from the Wii's motion-sensing. I cringe at SFAssault Corneria, though. CRINGE.



Offline Fxeni

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Reply #17 on: September 24, 2009, 03:12:46 AM
It did work well, but that's only because the All-Range modes were often the stage for the most epic scenes. Assault fell apart when the All-Range was used for hum-drum sniping of target enemies, save for the most fun part of the entire game:

Star Wolf dogfight.

On-foot...has been bad in the past, though I think like LoZ and Metroid, it would benefit from the Wii's motion-sensing. I cringe at SFAssault Corneria, though. CRINGE.
Well, the Star Wolf Dogfight was pretty much the most awesome part of SF64 as well, so no big surprise there XD



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #18 on: September 24, 2009, 03:18:14 AM
Well, for me it was the fact that you could turn BGM off in the options; I could put in a CD and effectively play to a different BGM without the need to hack (not that SF64's soundtrack isn't awesome, just nice to have a change of pace now and then).

Nothing's Gonna Stand In Our Way during Aquas, makes the stage ten times more badass.

SF64 was fine, that ratio seems to work well. Everything after that kinda overdoes it with the All-Range. Also... On-foot = BAD.
True of any flight game.  Oh, Rebel Strike, you are so awesome, when you stay in the damn cockpit...

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Offline Pringer X

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Reply #19 on: September 24, 2009, 03:52:18 AM
The Darkstalkers series.

Seriously, it just kind of burned out too quickly, and since Capcom and Atlus worked a little bit together with Nocturne and DMC3, I think that they could probably do another semi-crossover and put a couple of the SMT demons in a new Darkstalkers game, and have Morrigan, Demetri, and a couple others show up in an SMT game. It worked well with Nocturne and DMC3, and the series do have quite a bit in common, so why not?

*For those that don't know, Dante from (technically) DMC2 appeared as a boss/hidden character in Nocturne in the US and the Maniax edition in Japan, and in exchange, the people who worked on Nocturne did some designs for the devil trigger and a couple other things as well.



Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #20 on: September 24, 2009, 03:55:03 AM
Well, for me it was the fact that you could turn BGM off in the options; I could put in a CD and effectively play to a different BGM without the need to hack (not that SF64's soundtrack isn't awesome, just nice to have a change of pace now and then).

I...never even thought to do that.

Mostly because Koji Kondo.
'Nuff said.

You can also do that with Uematsu and Shimomura.
And whoever composed MM9's tunes.

The Darkstalkers series.

Seriously, it just kind of burned out too quickly, and since Capcom and Atlus worked a little bit together with Nocturne and DMC3, I think that they could probably do another semi-crossover and put a couple of the SMT demons in a new Darkstalkers game, and have Morrigan, Demetri, and a couple others show up in an SMT game. It worked well with Nocturne and DMC3, and the series do have quite a bit in common, so why not?

*For those that don't know, Dante from DMC2 (technically) appeared as a boss/hidden character in Nocturne in the US and the Maniax edition in Japan, and in exchange, the people who worked on Nocturne did some designs for the devil trigger and a couple other things as well.

I say that since Darkstalkers and Devil May Cry can't seem to make it on their own, it's time DMC absorbed Darkstalkers.



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #21 on: September 24, 2009, 04:55:49 AM
Holy [tornado fang], this idea is sexy. XD

LoL, I'm glad someone liked it.  I know I sure did-icus!

Lets see, fixing Sonic...

-Make it exactly like S3&K and/or/fusion Sonic CD.  Problem. [tornado fang]ing. Solved.

Onto Star Fox...

-No "on-foot" missions.  Arwing, Tank...and I suppose Sub (though I don't see the point)
-Customizable Arwings
-Make it as beautiful as Lylat Cruise from Brawl.
-More SNES Music remixes.
-Experiment with controls (like new Wii-Mote Flight Stick accessory), but give player multiple control options.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #22 on: September 25, 2009, 12:55:09 AM
Arwing, Tank...and I suppose Sub (though I don't see the point)
Meh, in Command everything worked underwater.  But I have to admit the half-submerged Great Fox cutscene was cool.

Quote
-Customizable Arwings
-Make it as beautiful as Lylat Cruise from Brawl.
-More SNES Music remixes.
Genius all-around.  Especially SNES remixes, I want to hear that victory jingle, Professor Hanger, and Venom Course 2!

Note that "Lylat Cruise" includes N64-style Great Fox.  Whoever made that stage knew their [parasitic bomb], for sure.

Oh yeah, and we also need some manner of Warp/Black Hole.  I never get tired of that cutscene in SF64, where the whole team warping and Great Fox barreling through behind them.

Quote
-Experiment with controls (like new Wii-Mote Flight Stick accessory), but give player multiple control options.
Absolutely, this was Command's problem.  First of all, Command's touch controls weren't that great.  Second, even if a new control scheme is clearly superior, a traditional setup will help old coots like us make the adjustment (case in point: Metroid Prime Hunters).  For other games, it's simply a matter of preference (Punch-Out!!, Mario Kart, etc.).

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Offline Acid

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Reply #23 on: October 01, 2009, 01:34:04 PM
Make MMX9 in 16-bit style. That is all I really want right now.



Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #24 on: October 01, 2009, 02:47:58 PM
There will be a bed of spikes you need a certain combination of power-ups to leap past...  in 16 bits!!!lolzs