RockmanPM Forums
Other Things => Gaming => Topic started by: Psycho Yuffie on December 19, 2008, 07:34:55 AM
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Who's your favorite Sonic character? I have every single one here, that I remember, anyway. If I forgot any, please let me know.
Mine is Sonic, of course. >>;
Edit: Just remembered one I forgot: Mecha Knuckles.
Edit 2: Added Chip.
Edit 3: Added Cheese.
Edit 4: Added Eggman Nega.
Edit 5: Added Shade.
Edit 6: Added Mecha Sonic Mk V and Mecha Knuckles Mk II.
Edit 7: Added Mephiles.
Edit 8: Added Mecha Sonic Mk IV and edited the previous Mk IV to Mk V.
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*points to username*
Hmm... >_>
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[tornado fang] YEAH FROGGY
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Mecha Sonic from Sonic and Knuckles.
I'd say, it was a pretty epic fight, and the design was really well done.
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Gotta love the Hedgehog!
Although, Metal Sonic is pretty bad-ass!
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Well, this is going to be a heavily one-sided poll. Get some joke votes going.
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Scratch - "HaHA HAHA"
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Well, this is going to be a heavily one-sided poll. Get some joke votes going.
I put Froggy in the poll!
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Screw all-a y'all, I'm voting for Blaze.
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Go Froggy! 8D
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Screw all-a y'all, I'm voting for Blaze.
Hey, I love Blaze! 8)
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Hey, I love Blaze! 8)
Blaze is awesome. She's my second-favorite. ^^
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Good. Cookies for both of you. :cookie: :cookie:
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Mecha Sonic Mk. II. Because he's awesome.
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Knuckles. Echidnas are cute. And in my collection of Pogs, I have a Knuckles slammer. He's won me many a Pog game.
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What? no love for Silver or Shadow? What about Chip?
yeah right. Sonic any day. XD
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Mecha Sonic Mk III.
best Mecha sonic design ever.
even better than Metal's.
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Tails.
Then Sonic, then Mecha Sonic Mk III.
Mecha Sonic Mk III.
best Mecha sonic design ever.
even better than Metal's.
Hi-five.
EDIT: No Shade the Echidna?
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Im with Hyper on this one
Tails is awesome with his tech-mind he could build anything
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Tails.
Then Sonic, then Mecha Sonic Mk III.
Hi-five.
EDIT: No Shade the Echidna?
Who the heck is Shade? Let me just say that this is a game character poll only. No Archie, Satam, or Underground characters. If they're not in the games, forget about it.
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Who the heck is Shade? Let me just say that this is a game character poll only. No Archie, Satam, or Underground characters. If they're not in the games, forget about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Untitled_Sonic_RPG
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Shade's from the DS RPG.
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She's the echidna [sonic slicer] from Sonic Chronicles... not that many people can stomach playing through that half-baked piece of tripe.
(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/sonic/images/a/a8/Shade_unmasked.jpg)
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Shade's from the DS RPG.
I haven't played it yet. I'll add her now.
She's the echidna [sonic slicer] from Sonic Chronicles... not that many people can stomach playing through that half-baked piece of tripe.
(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/sonic/images/a/a8/Shade_unmasked.jpg)
Oh? I heard that it was supposed to be pretty good...
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So many choices... :o
I'm actually gonna vote Mecha Knuckles. I though he was pretty cool, and he was an absolute beast in Sonic R.
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Dialog wise, it is. It's pretty much the only good aspect of the game. Otherwise, the game feels very unfinished. The story itself follows way too closely to Knuckles and The Dark Legion three-parter from the Archie comics, only with more Sonic and co. and less every other Archie character.
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TAILS. [tornado fang] YEAH.
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And with a click of my mouse, Tails overtakes Sonic.
TAKE THAT, YOU BRISTLE-BACKED WEIRDOS!
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And with a click of my mouse, Tails overtakes Sonic.
TAKE THAT, YOU BRISTLE-BACKED WEIRDOS!
But... Sonic is the main character... O^O
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What about Ix (The main villan of the RPG)? He hails from the Same RPG as Shade, good for a beginner's RPG. however, since Sonic's face was slapped on it, it already became the target with a pool of negativity, and IGN as well as X-play. It's a really Okay game IMO.
BRB Voting Mecha Sonic Mk III.
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But... Sonic is the main character... O^O
At least Tails didn't have a redesign that messed up his character.
Tails is the one constant force in an otherwise changing story.
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At least Tails didn't have a redesign that messed up his character.
Tails is the one constant force in an otherwise changing story.
Untrue. Tails got blue eyes and got tacked with a "boy genius" personality. Before then, he was just a cute sidekick.
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No Tails Doll?
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Untrue. Tails got blue eyes and got tacked with a "boy genius" personality. Before then, he was just a cute sidekick.
I don't think the "boy genius" personality was entirely unfounded, considering that in his first appearance, over the course of a single stage, he repaired Sonic's bi-plane after it was shot down and rigged it with a rocket booster. I'd say Tails had a rep for being one hell of a mechanic from day one. Then two games later there's the handy-dandy magnet/clamp for the Master Emerald.
Besides Vector, I don't mind the redesigns on any Sonic character; for the most part I appreciate them (Amy especially). But yeah, the whole "Tails is a mech pilot now" thing was uncalled for. It's basically the one flaw that keeps my otherwise rabid fanboyism of SA2 in check.
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I don't think the "boy genius" personality was entirely unfounded, considering that in his first appearance, over the course of a single stage, he repaired Sonic's bi-plane after it was shot down and rigged it with a rocket booster. I'd say Tails had a rep for being one hell of a mechanic from day one. Then two games later there's the handy-dandy magnet/clamp for the Master Emerald.
Besides Vector, I don't mind the redesigns on any Sonic character; for the most part I appreciate them (Amy especially). But yeah, the whole "Tails is a mech pilot now" thing was uncalled for. It's basically the one flaw that keeps my otherwise rabid fanboyism of SA2 in check.
Eh... It's never said who fixed the plane and stuff, really. I don't think the game creators were really thinking about that kind of stuff. It was kind of a different era back then.
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Now I suddenly have an image of Tails crashing next to a treasure chest containing a rocket booster and plane repair kit...
I'm not saying I don't raise an eyebrow when Tails whips out a fake Chaos Emerald. Or those ridiculous flying fortresses in Sonic X. I'm just saying, when it comes to tricking out planes to the level of, for example, Sonic Adventure 1, there's plenty reason to believe Tails knows his stuff.
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Now I suddenly have an image of Tails crashing next to a treasure chest containing a rocket booster and plane repair kit...
I'm not saying I don't raise an eyebrow when Tails whips out a fake Chaos Emerald. Or those ridiculous flying fortresses in Sonic X. I'm just saying, when it comes to tricking out planes to the level of, for example, Sonic Adventure 1, there's plenty reason to believe Tails knows his stuff.
I was talking about the Genesis days. Before Sonic and his friends went through their make-overs. Although, I have to admit that I prefer the new Sonic design over the old one. I think it makes him look less generic.
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Eh... It's never said who fixed the plane and stuff, really. I don't think the game creators were really thinking about that kind of stuff. It was kind of a different era back then.
They didn't, but it was pretty much hinted at, even in the original JP manuals, I believe, that Tails was "fascinated" by the Tornado when he first saw it, and was on his way to being a mechanical savant in the making.
Then, by the time, the likes of "Sonic Triple Trouble/Sonic and Tails 2" (where Tails had that cute Submersible) and "Tails Adventure" came along, it was more or less made officially a part of his character theme. Tails even showcased more of his technological savvy in "Sonic the Fighters", where he seemed to have built everything necessary in order for one character to travel to stop Eggman, the rocket only needed the Emeralds to do it.
In short, they had already taken steps to imply that Tails was meant to be the "geek" of the series, just as much as Knux was the wild strong-man and Sonic was the speedster with a cavalier attitude towards life. And this was all done before 98, when Adventure effectively "relaunched" the series.
Sure, it wasn't all that in-depth, but it worked, for the Sonic series back in the day. Frankly, it's that kind of simplicity that I think did more to make Sonic as great as he was back then.
I was talking about the Genesis days. Before Sonic and his friends went through their make-overs. Although, I have to admit that I prefer the new Sonic design over the old one. I think it makes him look less generic.
Gotta disagree here.
Giving Sonic those long limbs, green eyes and all that "edgy" stuff? That was a turn-off, in my opinion, and is right up there with the "Loonatics Unleashed", in what I think is an example of how to take a classical design that worked, and "EXTREME!!!!" it up as part of another one of a marketing team's "great ideas".
But hey, in this day and age, bastardizing Naoto Oshima's original character design is probably the LEAST of my personal quips with modern-day Sonic games...
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Giving Sonic those long limbs, green eyes and all that "edgy" stuff? That was a turn-off, in my opinion, and is right up there with the "Loonatics Unleashed", in what I think is an example of how to take a classical design that worked, and "EXTREME!!!!" it up as part of another one of a marketing team's "great ideas".
Oh god Ben. Don't tell me you actually watched that abomination? I refused! XD
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Oh god Ben. Don't tell me you actually watched that abomination? I refused! XD
Oh no no...
I saw the first "promo" years ago, and then the "[tornado fang]ing EXTREME!" parody that was on newgrounds and the like soon afterward. That was enough. 8D
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Oh no no...
I saw the first "promo" years ago, and then the "[tornado fang]ing EXTREME!" parody that was on newgrounds and the like soon afterward. That was enough. 8D
Whew.
I mean, when I first saw the promo's for this, I was simply appalled. I mean, I'll usually give anything a first glance, but when it came to this, I couldn't. 8)
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My favourite? Eggman, no questions asked. He's also my all-time favourite video game villain.
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SCD Style Metal-Sonic.
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SCD Style Metal-Sonic.
I always preferred the Sonic and Knuckles version myself. I think that version looks the most badass. The Sonic 2 version seemed a little too stiff to me. The Sonic CD one was the one that was more built for speed. I think that the Sonic and Knuckles version was a combination of these two designs.
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And when the S&K version turns Super/Hyper deliciousness, that's when it decides the winning factor. ^^
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And when the S&K version turns Super/Hyper deliciousness, that's when it decides the winning factor. ^^
And thereby refuting the fan claims that only hedgehogs can go super--even though they still say that now. Even after Knuckles and Tails went super. They say that Knuckles can only go super because of his connection to the Master Emerald. Also, Tails can only go super because after the trouble of getting 14 Emeralds, they had to give the player something. I don't really agree myself.
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[tornado fang] yeah.
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa215/I_am_X2007/Mecha_Sonic_by_SefirothDB.jpg)
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa215/I_am_X2007/metalsonic_powerup.gif)
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Also the fact that this guy's the SMBZ flash's main villan, he's second to protoman in awesomeness.
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[tornado fang] yeah.
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa215/I_am_X2007/Mecha_Sonic_by_SefirothDB.jpg)
OH MY....
Fukken saved.
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And thereby refuting the fan claims that only hedgehogs can go super--even though they still say that now. Even after Knuckles and Tails went super. They say that Knuckles can only go super because of his connection to the Master Emerald. Also, Tails can only go super because after the trouble of getting 14 Emeralds, they had to give the player something. I don't really agree myself.
Well, there's two schools of thought that you can utilize, if you really want to side with the notion of "hedgehogs go super only".
For one, the main reason that leads to the notion of why the Super forms of Tails and Knux existed in S&K3, and furthermore, the Hyper Forms for everyone (including Sonic) in the same game, was more or less a "gameplay bonus", rather than being a "canonical" thing.
In short, like you suggest in your second-to-last, it was more of a thing of giving the player something fun to strive for, rather than really having an impact on what to expect in the series from that point onward.
Secondly, canonically, only Super/Hyper Sonic was the one who was able to take on Eggman in the final fight of S3&K's story line. Meanwhile, you were forced as Knux to to deal with (Super) Mecha Sonic without such a perk (all the more reason why I consider Knux more manly than Sonic! XD). And Tails' "storyline", of course, is tied to Sonic's. Some how, the kitsune makes it back to Earth in just enough time to fire up the Tornado, so to help Sonic on re-entry.
But in any case, notice how even Hyper Sonic and the "Super Emeralds" have yet to make any re-appearance in the series, which probably just goes to show that they, like the other frivolous forms, were bonuses, rather than something we should come to expect as "canon" for the series. Even that moment when Tails and Knux were flying alongside Sonic in "Heroes" wasn't anything beyond the notion of how Sonic was able to some how generate some sort of "forcefield" to allow them to fight with him. So, as of right now, there's nothing that points to the notion that any one besides a male hedgehog (sorry, Amy), is able to use the powers of the Chaos Emeralds in such a way. I blame the whole thing of the Sonic series doing more to ride DBZ's lap about this whole thing (Saiyajins = Hedgehogs), as time went on.
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But in any case, notice how even Hyper Sonic and the "Super Emeralds" have yet to make any re-appearance in the series, which probably just goes to show that they, like the other frivolous forms, were bonuses, rather than something we should come to expect as "canon" for the series. Even that moment when Tails and Knux were flying alongside Sonic in "Heroes" wasn't anything beyond the notion of how Sonic was able to some how generate some sort of "forcefield" to allow them to fight with him. So, as of right now, there's nothing that points to the notion that any one besides a male hedgehog (sorry, Amy), is able to use the powers of the Chaos Emeralds in such a way. I blame the whole thing of the Sonic series doing more to ride DBZ's lap about this whole thing (Saiyajins = Hedgehogs), as time went on.
This once again hurts DBZ's reputation, as this series has little to no dignity left, and how it got overraited in the first place. It's killing other series in the process. :\
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I always preferred the Sonic and Knuckles version myself. I think that version looks the most badass.
Quoted for truth.
canonically, only Super/Hyper Sonic was the one who was able to take on Eggman in the final fight of S3&K's story line. Meanwhile, you were forced as Knux to to deal with (Super) Mecha Sonic without such a perk (all the more reason why I consider Knux more manly than Sonic! XD).
(http://mysite.verizon.net/Serpentara/holdit.gif)
Knuckles fails to hang onto the Master Emerald if he hasn't gathered the Chaos Emeralds (in S3&K he doesn't switch forms without Super Emeralds, but that could be due to the lack of color difference between Knuckles's Super and Hyper forms; I'm not sure how it goes with 7 Chaos Emeralds in S&K alone). Furthermore, Knuckles's story is incompatible with Sonic's. It's an alternate, not a parallel. There's no room in Sonic's story for Metal Sonic to ever get ahold of the Master Emerald, much less for Knuckles to find him alone; he's with Sonic between the time the Master Emerald is stolen and the Death Egg launches.
But in any case, notice how even Hyper Sonic and the "Super Emeralds" have yet to make any re-appearance in the series, which probably just goes to show that they, like the other frivolous forms, were bonuses, rather than something we should come to expect as "canon" for the series.
The fact that a "frivolous form" does not reappear doesn't make it any less canonical, it could be simply inconvenient (case in point: Darkspine Sonic). The Super Emeralds literally are Chaos Emeralds, just after they've been tanked up in the Hidden Palace by the Master Emerald. How often since then do we have all 7 Chaos Emeralds and the Master Emerald in the same place?
As far as I know (correct me if Sonic '06 or Unleashed clash with this), once. The end of Sonic Adventure 2. And there are a few things that make the idea of Super Emeralds at that time inconvenient and/or risky:
1. Time is of the essence. And really, this in and of itself is reason enough.
2. Over-powering is how they got into that mess in the first place; if for any reason Sonic and Shadow fail to stop Biolizard, then the more powerful the Emeralds are, the worse the damage to Earth will be.
3. Biolizard can tap into the Chaos Emeralds, as they witnessed with it Chaos Controlling out of the cannon's core, and Sonic further observes this in mid-battle afterwards. To power the Emeralds up further would grant that power to both sides of the conflict, so it wouldn't help any.
The only thing that makes the Super Emeralds questionable is that they pre-date the series "reinvention" at Adventure. But this doesn't automatically invalidate them; there are numerous vague references to past games, and two that are relevant to this discussion are Knuckles having been tricked by Eggman in the past, and the Master Emerald's dominion over the Chaos Emeralds. There is also the fanfiction-feeding oddity that the Chaos Emeralds are unusually large when seen in the shrine during the flashbacks to Tikal's time.
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The reason I like Metal sonic's Heroes look is because it reminds me of Mecha Sonic lll.
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The reason I like Metal sonic's Heroes look is because it reminds me of Mecha Sonic lll.
Thanks for reminding me. I forgot about Mecha Sonic Mk IV. It's been added. Also, this made me remember there was a Mecha Knuckles in Sonic Advance, so that one was added too.
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Knuckles fails to hang onto the Master Emerald if he hasn't gathered the Chaos Emeralds (in S3&K he doesn't switch forms without Super Emeralds, but that could be due to the lack of color difference between Knuckles's Super and Hyper forms; I'm not sure how it goes with 7 Chaos Emeralds in S&K alone). Furthermore, Knuckles's story is incompatible with Sonic's. It's an alternate, not a parallel. There's no room in Sonic's story for Metal Sonic to ever get ahold of the Master Emerald, much less for Knuckles to find him alone; he's with Sonic between the time the Master Emerald is stolen and the Death Egg launches.
Most who believe in Knux's storyline, believe it's the stuff of "Gaiden/After-math" material.
It's plausible that, in the event of Eggman's failure, any one of those "drones" could have either a) started acting out on a contingency plan of Eggman's design or b) could have some how developed a degree of sentience, and had its own plans (this could have definitely been the case after Mecha Sonic was re-built, who could have engineered such a plot itself).
Condition a) works because, well, Eggman is the genius, and he likely could have taken such a "Xanatos Gambit" into effect; assuming that his first plot would indeed be foiled some how. Besides, being so close to the Master Emerald, what makes you think he wouldn't try a back-up plan to try and still obtain it, while the getting was still relatively good? ...Especially if he thought that Sonic would likely be too far away to re-act in time, and Knux would be of little consequence (an oversight he would later come to regret paying the right amount of respect)?
Likewise, condition b) works because, assuming a drone did start to act out a plan (either because of things relating to condition a, developing its own degree of sentience or maybe even acting out on Mecha Sonic's orders), we would later have plenty to believe that such a thing was possible, especially in the case that Mecha was some how behind it all. If that be the case, then Sonic Heroes wouldn't be the first time that robots in Eggman's ranks went rogue.
In either case, such a thing would have forced Knux into action, no matter what degree of time may have passed after Sonic and Tails' tour de force. The player being forced, as Knux, to go through almost all the levels again would be largely due to gameplay mechanics. And in any case, Knux not being able to go to the Death Egg would do a lot to showcase that his storyline took place after the fact; after all, if the base was destroyed, or otherwise rendered inoperable, there's no reason for him to be there, right?
So, in any case, there's a lot to showcase that Knux's side-story in S3&K probably did happen. Knux would basically be able to do more to make up for his failings in Sonic's story, plus it would do more to set-up for Eggman wanting revenge by Knuckles Chaotix. 8D
The fact that a "frivolous form" does not reappear doesn't make it any less canonical, it could be simply inconvenient (case in point: Darkspine Sonic). The Super Emeralds literally are Chaos Emeralds, just after they've been tanked up in the Hidden Palace by the Master Emerald. How often since then do we have all 7 Chaos Emeralds and the Master Emerald in the same place?
Twice, actually.
In Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, we've had at least two times when the Master Emerald was in the same vicinity as the Chaos Emeralds. Like you said, it was what Knux used in order try to and "neutralize" the Chaos Emeralds (although it failed).
Also, in the first game Knux had 6 of the Emeralds positioned next to the Master (although Chaos would later snack on 'em again any way). And if Knux was able to just seemingly carry the Master Emerald around in "Hammer Space(tm)" in the Second game, it stands to reason he probably could have done so anytime he wishes.
So, if it stands to reason that the Master (or at least its most direct conduit, through Knux) is probably not too far away in any instance, they could have found some way to make the Supers again. I just don't think modern-day Sega cares enough to re-vitalize that mechanism (or possibly even acknowledge it).
The only thing that makes the Super Emeralds questionable is that they pre-date the series "reinvention" at Adventure. But this doesn't automatically invalidate them; there are numerous vague references to past games, and two that are relevant to this discussion are Knuckles having been tricked by Eggman in the past, and the Master Emerald's dominion over the Chaos Emeralds. There is also the fanfiction-feeding oddity that the Chaos Emeralds are unusually large when seen in the shrine during the flashbacks to Tikal's time.
Good points, but again, what I think is probably the most telling is (besides the aforementioned thing of how modern Sega doesn't care), is that there has NOT been any sort of incorporation of those extras, since that time.
Time off and time on, and the MANY games in the series that have appeared since 94.....how many have utilized those extras? Nada. We're always stuck with Super Sonic/Hedgehogs, and nothing else beyond that.
It could be construed as "underutilized potential" (which certainly could describe the series in a lot of ways), but honestly, I just don't think there's enough there to make a case for the Super Emeralds, Hyper Sonic and the transformations for Tails and Knux being anything beyond gameplay bonuses, that otherwise have little relevance on the series' overall "canon".
In that light, it's the same thing for some silly things that have occurred in the Rockman series over the years. Things like "Ultimate Zero" in various Rockman Zero entries, the "Omega Live Metal" in Rockman ZX and Rockman @ in ZXA? These are all the stuff of gameplay bonuses, which are fun to strive for and even better to obtain, but of course, have little bearing on what actually happened "canonically" in those games.
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Most who believe in Knux's storyline, believe it's the stuff of "Gaiden/After-math" material.
It's plausible that, in the event of Eggman's failure, any one of those "drones" could have either a) started acting out on a contingency plan of Eggman's design or b) could have some how developed a degree of sentience, and had its own plans (this could have definitely been the case after Mecha Sonic was re-built, who could have engineered such a plot itself).
Condition a) works because, well, Eggman is the genius, and he likely could have taken such a "Xanatos Gambit" into effect; assuming that his first plot would indeed be foiled some how. Besides, being so close to the Master Emerald, what makes you think he wouldn't try a back-up plan to try and still obtain it, while the getting was still relatively good? ...Especially if he thought that Sonic would likely be too far away to re-act in time, and Knux would be of little consequence (an oversight he would later come to regret paying the right amount of respect)?
Likewise, condition b) works because, assuming a drone did start to act out a plan (either because of things relating to condition a, developing its own degree of sentience or maybe even acting out on Mecha Sonic's orders), we would later have plenty to believe that such a thing was possible, especially in the case that Mecha was some how behind it all. If that be the case, then Sonic Heroes wouldn't be the first time that robots in Eggman's ranks went rogue.
In either case, such a thing would have forced Knux into action, no matter what degree of time may have passed after Sonic and Tails' tour de force. The player being forced, as Knux, to go through almost all the levels again would be largely due to gameplay mechanics. And in any case, Knux not being able to go to the Death Egg would do a lot to showcase that his storyline took place after the fact; after all, if the base was destroyed, or otherwise rendered inoperable, there's no reason for him to be there, right?
So, in any case, there's a lot to showcase that Knux's side-story in S3&K probably did happen. Knux would basically be able to do more to make up for his failings in Sonic's story, plus it would do more to set-up for Eggman wanting revenge by Knuckles Chaotix. 8D
You're confusing "did" with "could". Possibility =/= fact. And I think it's cute that people honestly think this level of thought went into a dialogue-less 16-bit platformer.
You're neglecting a couple of things. One, Sonic just happening to make a return visit for no reason. Two, the Flying Battery repeating the exact same flight path. And three, Eggman does appear in Knuckles's story, in Flying Battery Act 2.
Also, in the first game Knux had 6 of the Emeralds positioned next to the Master (although Chaos would later snack on 'em again any way). And if Knux was able to just seemingly carry the Master Emerald around in "Hammer Space(tm)" in the Second game, it stands to reason he probably could have done so anytime he wishes.
Once again, just because something is possible doesn't mean it's likely. If Knux had the Master Emerald handy, he'd have neutralized the Emeralds as he did in SA2.
We should also consider the likelihood of Knux wanting to move the Master Emerald in the first place. He didn't carry it along in SA2 because he wanted to, the Master Emerald wasn't completed until they were on board the ARK. What he's done with it since then is anyone's guess. But in SA1, lacking any understanding as to why Angel Island still fell with the Master Emerald in place, or where Chaos might be, or for that matter the 7th Emerald is, I don't think Knuckles would have been that eager to take it for a stroll into a disaster zone.
And to nail the case shut, try looking around when Sonic wakes up. Knuckles is gone, Master Emerald is still there.
Since you made a lot of redundant writing last time I want to clarify one thing: I am *NOT* by any means whatsoever suggesting that Sega is ready, willing, or intent on bringing such mechanics back. I have no doubt that they are not. But again, that something doesn't return doesn't write out its introduction. The Super Emeralds are not a convenient mechanic to work with, given the special circumstances that they require. Again, it could be likened to seeing Dark Spine Sonic again, what are the odds of running into the World Rings a second time? Not only do the Super Emeralds require all seven Chaos Emeralds with the Master Emerald, but the shrine (new Sonic's not-so-Hidden Palace) is probably a key element as well. The Super Emeralds are immobile, after all, and Sonic notes in SA2 that the shrine's design is likely ideal in harnessing the Emeralds' power. This further reinforces that SA2 is probably the only point where it was even a possibility for them to return, especially when you consider the dilapidated condition of the Angel Island shrine.
In that light, it's the same thing for some silly things that have occurred in the Rockman series over the years. Things like "Ultimate Zero" in various Rockman Zero entries, the "Omega Live Metal" in Rockman ZX and Rockman @ in ZXA? These are all the stuff of gameplay bonuses, which are fun to strive for and even better to obtain, but of course, have little bearing on what actually happened "canonically" in those games.
I repeat as a broken record that the existence of Model O holds somewhat more canonical weight than the obtaining of Model OX. There is a difference. Model OX, Model a, and Zero's Ultimate Form (sans Z2) require beating the game to obtain. Model O does not. While its inconvenient location and lack of reference mean Vent/Aile probably didn't go exploring in Area N to nab it, that doesn't mean it's not there. Kinda like how Vent and Aile both exist even though you never see them both in the same storyline (yet). Omega's reappearance is further validated by his presence in ZX's disk database.
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You guys seem to be under the impression that Knuckles can't go super until after getting the Super Emeralds. That's wrong and probably do to poor recall. It probably has been a while since you played the games. Knuckles can become Super Knuckles with just the Chaos Emeralds. He also goes Hyper Knuckles with the Super Emeralds. This proves that hedgehogs aren't the only ones who can use the Chaos Emeralds to turn super.
If we forget the Super Emeralds for a second and assume they were just a reward, then we can properly assume the assume another hypothesis to explain Tails. Tails is probably too young to properly harness the raw power of the Chaos Emeralds.
However, this is all just wild speculation.
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You guys seem to be under the impression that Knuckles can't go super until after getting the Super Emeralds. That's wrong and probably do to poor recall. It probably has been a while since you played the games. Knuckles can become Super Knuckles with just the Chaos Emeralds. He also goes Hyper Knuckles with the Super Emeralds. This proves that hedgehogs aren't the only ones who can use the Chaos Emeralds to turn super.
We're both aware of that. What Ben is saying is that both Super and Hyper Knuckles are "gameplay bonuses" not relevant to the story. This is why I brought up S&K's ending two posts ago.
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We're both aware of that. What Ben is saying is that both Super and Hyper Knuckles are "gameplay bonuses" not relevant to the story. This is why I brought up S&K's ending two posts ago.
Super Knuckles is for sure canon. You can have Super Knuckles in Knuckles in Sonic the Hedgehog 2 and in Sonic and Knuckles. Hyper Sonic and Hyper Knuckles may or may not be canon, but Super Knuckles is. If Sonic ever goes back to its true roots and Knuckles is playable, we would definitely see a return of Super Knuckles. He would probably get a makeover, though.
Edit: Iris isn't soft, she's hard! She's a robot. -u-'
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Super Knuckles is for sure canon. You can have Super Knuckles in Knuckles in Sonic the Hedgehog 2 and in Sonic and Knuckles. Hyper Sonic and Hyper Knuckles may or may not be canon, but Super Knuckles is. If Sonic ever goes back to its true roots and Knuckles is playable, we would definitely see a return of Super Knuckles. He would probably get a makeover, though.
Edit: Iris isn't soft, she's hard! She's a robot. -u-'
A robot that appears human, plus the leather put into her suit!
Well, if we DO see a return of Super Knux, why not Tails? (He had a Super back, but he was gold and had birds around him before the reinvention of the series.
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Super Tails is, like Hyper Sonic and Hyper Knuckles, a Super Emerald form, not a Chaos Emerald form.
she's hard!
You're thinking of Foxtar.
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Super Tails is, like Hyper Sonic and Hyper Knuckles, a Super Emerald form, not a Chaos Emerald form.
Eeehh, never used Tails, need to go back into the PC version. but eh, since the series was redone, it wouldn't exist anymore. but eh, it was good for a first timer as a super.
Foxtar's hard, but her cape's soft. 8D
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You're confusing "did" with "could". Possibility =/= fact. And I think it's cute that people honestly think this level of thought went into a dialogue-less 16-bit platformer.
Again, to see where this "level of thought" could occur, one had to read a number of the different source materials that were available (re: Japanese manuals and etc.). These lil booklets that gave the background storyline DID do more to put some thought into the mythos of Sonic lore, which is why such speculation is allowed to exist.
The Japanese manuals for Sonic 3, for instance, basically foretold about the "Ancient Civilization that built it society around a Stone of Power", that we would actually not see in person until Sonic Adventure. It even foretold how the same society eventually came apart at the seams, once the Elders of the village tried to use the Emeralds for their own desires, and inadvertently unleashed a "force beyond their control". Sonic Adventure didn't invent this plot line, it just expanded on what was already there, since Sonic 3.
If you really want to see this stuff for yourself, go to places like "The Green Hill Zone" or even "Sonic Cult" (if you dare), where translations exist. The source material for these early games IS there, it's just that for the longest, it was only in Japanese, and only in their instruction manuals that Sega put out themselves. But if that doesn't constitute as "canon" for this series, I dunno what does.
You're neglecting a couple of things. One, Sonic just happening to make a return visit for no reason.
Could have been relative to anything relating to either a) gameplay reason or b) an actual legit "storyline" reason.
In the latter case, it was stated in the JP manual for Sonic 3, that Tails had already made a sort of "Emerald Radar" that detected the presence of the Master Emerald. (The giant tsunami that was also reported occurring days before, probably just gave Sonic and Tails even more reason to go out and check it out).
If something up relating to the Emerald was enough to get Sonic out there once, it's likely that something similar was able to do so again. Of course, by that time he arrived, Knux had largely already taken care of things, so he was only able to be there just in time to give Knux a quick lift.
Two, the Flying Battery repeating the exact same flight path.
This one is probably purely a thing relating to gameplay. Again, while the overall storyline did happen, Knux was still limited by the constraints of the game itself. So, for our sake, he had little choice but to go through a number of the same levels that Sonic went through, sometimes in the exact same way.
And three, Eggman does appear in Knuckles's story, in Flying Battery Act 2.
This was DEFINITELY more a thing relating to gameplay, or rather just programmer error, by virtue of the fact that some one probably forgot to sub in (or perhaps, forgot to even make) the "correct" and corresponding sprite to the EggRobot, instead of the unique Eggman sprite.
After all, using the debug mode feature in S3(&K), it's possible to make it so that you can have Sonic meet up with Knux's exclusive EggRobot bosses (and sometimes, vice-versa with Knux). In those cases, Sonic still fights Eggman. With Knux, they obviously didn't think that far ahead, so he fights Eggman regardless.
All that just does more to proof that, even after splitting the game apart, there was still was a lot of details that were "unfinished" about the game. Thankfully, Knux actually meeting up with Eggman for a level (when he shouldn't have) is probably the LEAST of these.
Once again, just because something is possible doesn't mean it's likely. If Knux had the Master Emerald handy, he'd have neutralized the Emeralds as he did in SA2.
You argue that way, but, it's possible that by the time Chaos (who probably knew how to use the Emeralds better than most, probably even better than Knux himself) got what he needed, it was already too late. Thousands of years old God-like being against a 16-year old Echidna. I don't think Knux would have been able to do much with the ME either way.
And to nail the case shut, try looking around when Sonic wakes up. Knuckles is gone, Master Emerald is still there.
Alright, I'll grant you that. 8)
Since you made a lot of redundant writing last time I want to clarify one thing: I am *NOT* by any means whatsoever suggesting that Sega is ready, willing, or intent on bringing such mechanics back. I have no doubt that they are not. But again, that something doesn't return doesn't write out its introduction. The Super Emeralds are not a convenient mechanic to work with, given the special circumstances that they require. Again, it could be likened to seeing Dark Spine Sonic again, what are the odds of running into the World Rings a second time? Not only do the Super Emeralds require all seven Chaos Emeralds with the Master Emerald, but the shrine (new Sonic's not-so-Hidden Palace) is probably a key element as well. The Super Emeralds are immobile, after all, and Sonic notes in SA2 that the shrine's design is likely ideal in harnessing the Emeralds' power. This further reinforces that SA2 is probably the only point where it was even a possibility for them to return, especially when you consider the dilapidated condition of the Angel Island shrine.
The basic thing still is, if they really wanted to bring them back, or possibly even "re-vamp/re-launch" the concept (such that maybe Sonic could possibly obtain Hyper form without the need of "Super Emeralds"), they would have done so by now. As you and I both seem to agree on, they've had a number of opportunities to do as such.
But...they don't. And then the question becomes: it is REALLY a thing that they just can't be bothered to bring 'em back, or was it just a thing that the Supers and etc. never really had that much of a consequence on the overall Sonic mythos, and thus, were basically allowed to be "quietly" retconned/expunged/Superboy-Prime Punch'd out of existence, by the Sonic Adventure re-launch?
As much as they've already down-played the concept of Super Sonic over the last few years, I wouldn't be surprised if the latter was more true than not.
I repeat as a broken record that the existence of Model O holds somewhat more canonical weight than the obtaining of Model OX. There is a difference. Model OX, Model a, and Zero's Ultimate Form (sans Z2) require beating the game to obtain. Model O does not. While its inconvenient location and lack of reference mean Vent/Aile probably didn't go exploring in Area N to nab it, that doesn't mean it's not there. Kinda like how Vent and Aile both exist even though you never see them both in the same storyline (yet). Omega's reappearance is further validated by his presence in ZX's disk database.
While Aile and Vent's co-existence has been proven (thanks to ZXA), Model O is in a different boat, I would believe.
The entire concept surrounding it (and even the ways you could obtain it) was definitely more of a thing of "gameplay bonus" more than anything else. You could have either sought it out, or you could have fought the "Legacy Boss Gauntlet" to get it. Both of which, as of now, have no bearing on what happened canonically in ZX. And I doubt that Inti or the story writer was even thinking along those lines, even though they did give him a little extra "shout-out" by giving him his own Disk (which, for the sake of storyline-wise, could have easily been something relating to the historical figure, rather than anything that occurred in the ZX timeline; after all Omega WAS found in ruins in Zero 3, it didn't say anything about finding him in Area N's ruins specifically...).
But who knows? Maybe Model O does exist. But until we get more in the way of source material to support it, Model O, and anything relating to it/him is probably in the same boat, as the likes of X getting Street Fighter moves in the first two X games. You didn't have to beat the games in order to get those either, but that doesn't necessarily anything more in the way of that they "exist".
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Wasn't this supposed to be a poll about our favorite Sonic characters?
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Yup, but you know we all have something equally interesting to share every now and then when it comes to franchises like this. XD
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Yeah, but the ZX discussion should be brought to the ZX section.
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Mecha Sonic Mk IV. I just love his design. 8)
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After reviewing the games on Green Hill Zone, I realize that I messed up the Mecha Marks. Technically, it should be:
Mecha Sonic: Sonic CD
Mecha Sonic Mk II: Sonic 2
Mecha Sonic Mk III: Sonic and Knuckles
Mecha Sonic Mk IV: Sonic Heroes
OR
Mecha Sonic: Sonic 2
Mecha Sonic Mk II: Sonic and Knuckles
Mecha Sonic Mk III: Sonic CD
Mecha Sonic Mk IV: Sonic Heroes
This gets a little sticky because of the release order. Story-wise, Sonic CD takes place before Sonic 2; however, due to delays, Sonic CD wasn't released until 1996--after Sonic and Knuckles. Myself, I'll stick with the story and choose the first order, myself. I'm unsure if I should change the Marks in the poll, though.
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For some reason I at some point picked it up as:
"Silver Sonic" = STH2
"Metal Sonic" = SCD/SH
"Mecha Sonic" = S&K
Don't ask me for validation on that, because I don't recall. It's just an old habit, I suppose. But Noboka, the Sonic CD Metal Sonic and the Sonic Heroes Metal Sonic are the same robot, merely transformed (see the ending clip).
Again, to see where this "level of thought" could occur, one had to read a number of the different source materials that were available (re: Japanese manuals and etc.). These lil booklets that gave the background storyline DID do more to put some thought into the mythos of Sonic lore, which is why such speculation is allowed to exist.
The Japanese manuals for Sonic 3, for instance, basically foretold about the "Ancient Civilization that built it society around a Stone of Power", that we would actually not see in person until Sonic Adventure. It even foretold how the same society eventually came apart at the seams, once the Elders of the village tried to use the Emeralds for their own desires, and inadvertently unleashed a "force beyond their control". Sonic Adventure didn't invent this plot line, it just expanded on what was already there, since Sonic 3.
If you really want to see this stuff for yourself, go to places like "The Green Hill Zone" or even "Sonic Cult" (if you dare), where translations exist. The source material for these early games IS there, it's just that for the longest, it was only in Japanese, and only in their instruction manuals that Sega put out themselves. But if that doesn't constitute as "canon" for this series, I dunno what does.
Your powers of association are impressive, but none of that is at all relevant to Knuckles' storyline being chronologically displaced from Sonic's. You have only shown that some passing off-screen lore was considered worth revisiting for a sequel two console generations later. What's so surprising about that?
Incidentally, these same materials rather obviously outline the formation of the Super Emeralds as depicted in S3&K, with a few details (the multi-colored ring) that do not fit S&K alone. TGHZ precedes the bit on Knuckles's story with "seems to", indicating they themselves are not sure. Speculation by those with access to additional sources is still speculation.
Could have been relative to anything relating to either a) gameplay reason or b) an actual legit "storyline" reason.
In the latter case, it was stated in the JP manual for Sonic 3, that Tails had already made a sort of "Emerald Radar" that detected the presence of the Master Emerald. (The giant tsunami that was also reported occurring days before, probably just gave Sonic and Tails even more reason to go out and check it out).
If something up relating to the Emerald was enough to get Sonic out there once, it's likely that something similar was able to do so again. Of course, by that time he arrived, Knux had largely already taken care of things, so he was only able to be there just in time to give Knux a quick lift.
Except that the Master Emerald is at all times in Angel Island's vicinity during Knuckles's storyline, so what's odd about it? Since Angel Island did not collide with the ocean again at any point following Sonic's S3&K victory, there would be no recurring tsunami to draw their attention either. It would take a detailed survey to realize something was wrong, and there's no reason for them to make the trip.
This one is probably purely a thing relating to gameplay. Again, while the overall storyline did happen, Knux was still limited by the constraints of the game itself. So, for our sake, he had little choice but to go through a number of the same levels that Sonic went through, sometimes in the exact same way.
Knuckles having his own path in quite a few zones, including first-Act starting points, that's a pretty weak argument. Still very well possible, but in terms of "likelihood", one has to raise an eyebrow.
This was DEFINITELY more a thing relating to gameplay, or rather just programmer error, by virtue of the fact that some one probably forgot to sub in (or perhaps, forgot to even make) the "correct" and corresponding sprite to the EggRobot, instead of the unique Eggman sprite.
You say "definitely" because it supports your presupposition. But every time you claim something is "most likely", you address only its possibility, and make no statement whatsoever as to why it holds more merit than alternate explanations. An extra sprite is extraordinarily simple, not to mention the replacement of "unique" Eggman sprites was already done earlier within the same Act.
The key points of the S&K storyline are that the Master Emerald is stolen, Eggman's treachery is revealed to Knuckles, and he and Sonic make up. Sonic's and Knuckles's storylines both parallel in this regard, just not in a way that the two can be occurring simultaneously. But whether they are sequential or alternates is another matter entirely, and while you claim the former more likely, you have provided nothing to favor it over the latter at all, besides the fact that TGHZ says so. The fact that it is possible is not under debate, yet it's the only thing you present.
The basic thing still is, if they really wanted to bring them back, or possibly even "re-vamp/re-launch" the concept (such that maybe Sonic could possibly obtain Hyper form without the need of "Super Emeralds"), they would have done so by now. As you and I both seem to agree on, they've had a number of opportunities to do as such.
If by "any number", you mean one. And this was the same game where they lacked the foresight to ever have Tails jump out of his walker outside of raising Chao.
Where you get the idea that failure to continue using a highly circumstantial mechanic is equivalent to retconning it out of existence, I will never know. Your entire debate is irrelevant. A retcon requires something contradictory to override what was previously established, and there is no such point within the "new Sonic" plot. And, again, while the term has not reappeared, it is no far stretch that SA1's super-sized past Emeralds were a throwback to the concept. Which would make a lot of sense considering the entire game is a throwback to S3&K lore in the first place.
While Aile and Vent's co-existence has been proven (thanks to ZXA)
(http://mysite.verizon.net/Serpentara/objection.gif)
Vent and Aile's co-existence was proven before ZX even saw release. While the commercials and battle sequences could be accepted as artistic mirror-imaging (which they basically are anyway, once you throw Biometal into the picture), the pre-release anime clips showed Vent and Aile interacting at Giro Express. To say they did not co-exist back then would be no different than saying the ZX Rush doesn't exist; you're wrong, and there's no two ways about it, the concept merely wasn't visited in-game (kinda like the S3&K mythos).
Nothing within the game ever conflicted with that point. It was established fact in Giro's profile that he took in multiple children despite the fact that we saw only one; and there is certainly nothing unusual about more than one mother/child pair visiting an amusement park. People who claimed Vent and Aile didn't co-exist had their heads buried in the sand. That was never the case, ZXA didn't establish anything new, it was merely a wake-up call for those who weren't paying attention.
You didn't have to beat the games in order to get those either, but that doesn't necessarily anything more in the way of that they "exist".
I was speaking in terms of patterns, not as some unwritten rule of game design. There is no such game-completion pattern at the time of X1, so it's a moot point. Furthermore, the Shotokan capsules require "completion" of the game in that you have to obtain all other items before they will appear; and in the case of X1 commit suicide repeatedly.
Finding Omega, on the other hand, has absolutely no special requirements whatsoever. Nothing "triggers" his presence, exploration is all it takes. Model O is merely a manifestation of his data reappearance, one which may or may not be revisited. The possible lack of ability difference from Model Z is something of a stumbling block in terms of how much value it would bring. But given Omega's regenerative and cyberspace-farking tendencies, the resurfacing of Omega's data is entirely plausible.
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Off topic: Ok, I'm lost here. When did ZXA comfirm Vent and Aile co-existing? Not saying they don't, but I definitely don't remember that. ???
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Get equipped with ciphers:
http://sprites-inc.co.uk/files/ZX/ZxA/Cutscene/mmzxa_cutscene9.png
(Courtesy of Sprites Inc (http://sprites-inc.co.uk/))
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How the hell couldn't I remember that part?! XD
I guess I never took that as a confirmation before.
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But Noboka, the Sonic CD Metal Sonic and the Sonic Heroes Metal Sonic are the same robot, merely transformed (see the ending clip).
I never finished Sonic Heroes, so I didn't know that. Even if that's true, didn't he get a huge upgrade? He may be the same robot, but his new design and upgrades earns him the right to distinguished from his previous form.
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His name was Metal Overlord for his giant form, so you may want to call him that.
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His name was Metal Overlord for his giant form, so you may want to call him that.
Metal Overlord? That's so cheesy... xx
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Well, he's "Metal Overlord" while he's anchored to Eggman's base. "Metal Madness" when he's flying free.
I never finished Sonic Heroes, so I didn't know that. Even if that's true, didn't he get a huge upgrade? He may be the same robot, but his new design and upgrades earns him the right to distinguished from his previous form.
He reverts back to his Sonic CD form at the end. Call it what you want.
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Well, he's "Metal Overlord" while he's anchored to Eggman's base. "Metal Madness" when he's flying free.
He reverts back to his Sonic CD form at the end. Call it what you want.
Does this work: Mecha Sonic Mk IV (Sonic Heroes [Before Ending])?
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Well, he's "Metal Overlord" while he's anchored to Eggman's base. "Metal Madness" when he's flying free,
Oh yeah, forgot about that, it's pretty much like with Biolizard/Final Hazard, same thing, different situation.
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Oh yeah, forgot about that, it's pretty much like with Biolizard/Final Hazard, same thing, different situation.
Super Sonic and Super Shadow flying around and hitting weak points?
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I was thinking more like this:
-Biolizard = the one under a normal situation
-Final Hazard = Biolizard when it has the Eclipse Canon stuck INSIDE HIS ASS >__<
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Except that in Metal Overlord/Madness's case, it's the removal of some huge structure stuck up one's ass.
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Pretty much XD
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The sonic Heroes Metal Sonic in his "standard" form, (pre battle), is named "Neo Metal Sonic" the sonic CD sonic is Metal sonic, and although the sonic 2 robot is called Silver sonic, its technically Mecha sonic. then theres the giant Metal sonic robot from knuckles chaotix... and Rocket Metal from Sonic the fighters...
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The sonic Heroes Metal Sonic in his "standard" form, (pre battle), is named "Neo Metal Sonic" the sonic CD sonic is Metal sonic, and although the sonic 2 robot is called Silver sonic, its technically Mecha sonic. then theres the giant Metal sonic robot from knuckles chaotix... and Rocket Metal from Sonic the fighters...
I added the one from Sonic the Fighters, but I couldn't find anything on the one from Knuckles Chaotix. Is it possible it's just the Sonic CD one again?
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I added the one from Sonic the Fighters, but I couldn't find anything on the one from Knuckles Chaotix. Is it possible it's just the Sonic CD one again?
Possible, I've seen the rips, The Sonic CD one is the one always upgraded, seeing how it can transform into a perfect fighting Mecha, I think it's called "Red Sonic". (Most likely due to a lack of an official name, let's go with that)
However I do belive that CD Mecha's in there, as a boss fight before he gets upgraded. (I've seen the run)
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The metal sonic in Knux is "MetalSonic." as in, the current one. however, the giant red metal sonic, (actually called Mega Metal sonic) is the subject of debate. its unknown if its a super form of Metal Sonic, or an entirely different robot.
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The Blue one, yes. The Red One, I don't know if it's an actual super form, as the boss fight before MMS Metal Sonic appears to be Powering Up, and when you beat him, he falls to the ground. Metal Metal Sonic sounds cheesy as a name though.
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It lacks a transformation scene.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5GkvLhTAnE
Eggman is laughing at his catch,(the rings of havoc or something? I forgot...) and a smoking Metal falls before him, all puckered out. he cant take any more. Eggman taps away at his keyboard, and a whole bunch of rings are released. he goes off with his platform, laughing again, and the smoking Metal follows him. and the Final battle immediately starts against a Giant red sonic robot. chances are more in the favor of it being just another sonic robot.
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It lacks a transformation scene.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5GkvLhTAnE
Eggman is laughing at his catch,(the rings of havoc or something? I forgot...) and a smoking Metal falls before him, all puckered out. he cant take any more. Eggman taps away at his keyboard, and a whole bunch of rings are released. he goes off with his platform, laughing again, and the smoking Metal follows him. and the Final battle immediately starts against a Giant red sonic robot. chances are more in the favor of it being just another sonic robot.
:o Bad indeed.
Someone on YT made a good point, maybe it's the result of eggman and metal stepping into the ring together.