RockmanPM Forums
Other Things => Gaming => Topic started by: HokutoNoBen on August 25, 2010, 05:47:42 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxXycBv3Rlk
Gaze upon that which Sega will likely NEVER do themselves... ;O;
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Before anyone says anything, let me put your hopes down.
It's just a 3D animation. This (unfortunately) is not a working game engine.
Feels bad, bro.
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I thought so but.... MAN! Think of the possibilities! The Death Egg! Mecha Sonic! Act 2 Boss of the Death Egg!
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I love how this topic treats Sega like dirt by comparing a fan animated video to Sega's current games. :W
I like the animation, though. Brings back non-faggy memories, I'm a neutral party when it comes to stuff like this. If Sega ever does a thing like this, it's back to the "graphic wars" where graphics mattered more than the gameplay.
I personally belive that games should be balanced upon gameplay and graphics anyway.
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I dun care! I just wanna play the game! XD
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Hot damn that looked nice.
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I love how this topic treats Sega like dirt by comparing a fan animated video to Sega's current games. :W
Easy to do when said video is able to invoke a more positive response via less than a minute's worth of footage, than Sonic 4: Episode 1 has done since the beginning of the year. 8D
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PB's avy is dancing slower than usual. o.o
I wonder if this animator did this with other 2D games.
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That made me jizz in my pants, actually.
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Easy to do when said video is able to invoke a more positive response via less than a minute's worth of footage, than Sonic 4: Episode 1 has done since the beginning of the year. 8D
This, honestly... that looked just so damn fine... while from day 1, people were complaining about Sonic's physics and stuff in 4.
GOD DAMN IT SEGGAAAAA! OPEN YOUR EYEEEES! WE WANT THIS!
I thought so but.... MAN! Think of the possibilities! The Death Egg! Mecha Sonic! Act 2 Boss of the Death Egg!
Oh god. I always loved the S3K Mecha sonic BEST, out of all the robot sonics ever in the games- including Metal himself. Seeing him in 3D like that would be just sex.
MECHA SONIC FO LIFE
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs47/f/2009/215/7/3/Mecha_Sonic_v2_0_by_SefirothDB.jpg
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I for one am not excited for Sonic 4 at all, mostly because there is no Steam release.
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That was beautiful, especially the lighting effects above the halfpipe there. Extremely well done; SEGA could take a hint from this for future Sonic 4 content, if you ask me.
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This does look really cool. But I say Sonic 4 can keep doing what its doing. Design wise there's nothing wrong with Sonic 4.
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All I mean is retro stages ftw.
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Easy to do when said video is able to invoke a more positive response via less than a minute's worth of footage, than Sonic 4: Episode 1 has done since the beginning of the year. 8D
>Made by a fan
>NOT made by Dimps
You see how it's better already.
Only good Sonic game Dimps made was Advance 1. Rush was decent. Rush's music however, was [tornado fang]ing awesome.
In other news, I want Sonic 4. :v
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>Made by a fan
>NOT made by Dimps
You see how it's better already.
Only good Sonic game Dimps made was Advance 1. Rush was decent. Rush's music however, was [tornado fang]ing awesome.
In other news, I want Sonic 4. :v
They're still a decent developer, and we're lucky to have Sonic 4 in the first place. Sega's showing they care. Which has been rare for awhile.
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That is just beautiful. Instant nostalgia.
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All I know is that I want more Hyper Sonic. :<
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47 seconds of pure awesomeness
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They're still a decent developer, and we're lucky to have Sonic 4 in the first place. Sega's showing they care. Which has been rare for awhile.
"Sega's showing they care", my ass. If the best they can do to showcase that, is via announcing such things like how the universally-panned mine cart levels are removed, then it's still a thing where, at best, Iizuka and his posse are trying to answer a festering wound with a band-aid. At worst, they STILL don't give a [tornado fang] or otherwise know what they're doing.
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"Sega's showing they care", my ass. If the best they can do to showcase that, is via announcing such things like how the universally-panned mine cart levels are removed, then it's still a thing where, at best, Iizuka and his posse are trying to answer a festering wound with a band-aid. At worst, they STILL don't give a [tornado fang] or otherwise know what they're doing.
Well how else can they care more? Yes, they're caring. If they didn't care, they'd just give us a ton of Wii shovelware in the most easily-fabricated way possible, reusing engines and assets as much as they can, because it SELLS. The way they've been working on Sonic 4 for so long, and even taking the time to fix the game after the fans criticized what was leaked shows that they're caring about what they're doing, and that they want Sonic to have some damn respect again from people. They're giving the game for Dimps to do, because they know how to do good 2D Sonic. And their work so far on Colors shows that they've listened to what fans said about Unleashed, and are trying to fix its flaws instead of making yet another gameplay transition.
Just because they don't automatically pump out a hand-drawn watercolor version of Sonic & Knuckles redrawn by a team of Italian Renaissance painters, or whatever the fans keep suggesting would be so damn easy for them to make, it doesn't mean they don't care. They've been listening to fans, they even know the Sonic Cycle. Let them work on things, and let's try what Sonic 4 is all about before criticizing it.
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Well how else can they care more? Yes, they're caring. If they didn't care, they'd just give us a ton of Wii shovelware in the most easily-fabricated way possible, reusing engines and assets as much as they can, because it SELLS. The way they've been working on Sonic 4 for so long, and even taking the time to fix the game after the fans criticized what was leaked shows that they're caring about what they're doing, and that they want Sonic to have some damn respect again from people. They're giving the game for Dimps to do, because they know how to do good 2D Sonic. And their work so far on Colors shows that they've listened to what fans said about Unleashed, and are trying to fix its flaws instead of making yet another gameplay transition.
Just because they don't automatically pump out a hand-drawn watercolor version of Sonic & Knuckles redrawn by a team of Italian Renaissance painters, or whatever the fans keep suggesting would be so damn easy for them to make, it doesn't mean they don't care. They've been listening to fans, they even know the Sonic Cycle. Let them work on things, and let's try what Sonic 4 is all about before criticizing it.
What he said^
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Just because they don't automatically pump out a hand-drawn watercolor version of Sonic & Knuckles redrawn by a team of Italian Renaissance painters, or whatever the fans keep suggesting would be so damn easy for them to make, it doesn't mean they don't care. They've been listening to fans, they even know the Sonic Cycle. Let them work on things, and let's try what Sonic 4 is all about before criticizing it.
I think Ben's problem lies more with the physics of Sonic 4, rather than the artwork. From what I've seen regarding the reactions towards this video, people are upset not because the artwork is so beautiful compared to Sonic 4, but more because the guy who made this pretty much captured the correct physics pretty well.
That's just my guess anyway.
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Well how else can they care more?
Well, let's see...
Sonic 4 is a game that should have, by all means, been an easy knock out of the park. You mention "Sonic 4" and you immediately draw comparisons to the original 16-bit anthology, and the good memories inspired by that much. For all that set-up, all Sega had to do was knock the pins down. The build up to the reveal of Sonic 4 footage (including appearances by PR manager, Mr. "Sonic-Cycle-is-dead" Ruby Eclipse) should have been able to do what the CG "proof of concept" posted above did, only more so, because of all the "hype" they were trying to generate.
Gee, what a surprise when they didn't do as such.
Then came the "leaking". I liked how some people, throughout the whole ordeal, actually wanted to say things to the effect of "Oh, poor Sega~!" and the like. Whatever, if the game was truly well made, a leak would have only served to be little more than FREE advertising for the game amongst the hardcore base that followed such exploits. Instead, it did anything but that.
So now, the name of the game is trying to go with this faux-apologetic "We're gonna get it right this time, we PROMISE~!" thing. I guess that's the new tag-line of choice, seeing how "We're taking him back to his ROOTS~!" has exhausted itself of all meaning. But you can bet that if the leak didn't happen, we would have gotten Sonic 4 as is (or was). The only thing that separates the more recent Sonic 4 episode of earlier this year from the 2006 disaster, is that, of course, Sega ALREADY made their money off of the latter. Here they were caught with their pants down before release, and they were left with either the choice to shape it up a bit to try and fix some of the glaring faults people saw through the leak, or just "quietly cancel" the title. Obviously, Iizuka and co. were still interested in the idea of trying to make money, so there you go.
But in the end, again, there's little to showcase that they actually "care". If they actually cared, things would have been different starting from the moment that "Sonic 4: Episode 1" was revealed. They had their "big chance" to show that they were turning over a new leaf, and they're likely never going to get such a thing again.
I think Ben's problem lies more with the physics of Sonic 4, rather than the artwork. From what I've seen regarding the reactions towards this video, people are upset not because the artwork is so beautiful compared to Sonic 4, but more because the guy who made this pretty much captured the correct physics pretty well.
That's just my guess anyway.
EXACTLY. I mean, the concept vid definitely is beautiful, but it's the way that the vid does more to showcase the kind of things that we should want to see from a game that calls itself "Sonic 4". The momentum is there. The level design is there. The reliance on an unnecessary game play element for this type of game (re: Homing Attack) is NOT there.
I hope Sega keeps on getting hammered with emails relating to this vid. If that's what it takes for them to finally take a hint...! 8D
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Because it's a video, not a working game engine. Working out the physics is not easy, especially when translating from 2D to 3D.
You know what Ben, it's not Sega that doesn't care, it's you who doesn't care. If you can't realize that them listening to fans' complaints and fixing the mistakes they made is a small sign of caring, especially considering 06 and other games were rushed out with myriad problems, you're just bitter and butthurt that it's not the game you want. If you want a "real" Sonic 4, go play Sonic and Knuckles. Cause a "real" Sonic 4 can never be made ever again. The Sega of today is not the Sega of yesteryear. Without the original team, you can't capture the same charm.
So either accept that this is not the Sonic we grew up with and stop comparing it to the older ones, or QUIT YER BITCHIN. You beat the horse to death, and he's out of continues.
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You know what Ben, it's not Sega that doesn't care, it's you who doesn't care. If you can't realize that them listening to fans' complaints and fixing the mistakes they made is a small sign of caring, especially considering 06 and other games were rushed out with myriad problems, you're just bitter and butthurt that it's not the game you want.
Actually, what both he and you described does not seem like caring at all, to me. To me, there's a huge difference between caring and "saving face" which is more of what Ben described. Again, I haven't been following up on this as much as the most determined gamer or hardcore Sonic fan, but he does bring up a good point. If the leak had never happened, would SEGA have listened to fans or fix the mistakes made in the first place?
If you want a "real" Sonic 4, go play Sonic and Knuckles. Cause a "real" Sonic 4 can never be made ever again. The Sega of today is not the Sega of yesteryear. Without the original team, you can't capture the same charm.
Then they shouldn't market it as such, which unless I miss my guess, has always been Ben's main complaint about Sonic 4. If it was marketed as Sonic Rush 3, then I don't think there'd be an issue.
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I think Ben's problem lies more with the physics of Sonic 4, rather than the artwork. From what I've seen regarding the reactions towards this video, people are upset not because the artwork is so beautiful compared to Sonic 4, but more because the guy who made this pretty much captured the correct physics pretty well.
That's just my guess anyway.
It's easy to work physics when someone's just trying to make a full motion video. =P I think Dimps feels that the new kind of physics works better in accordance to the gameplay/level design.
Well, let's see...
Sonic 4 is a game that should have, by all means, been an easy knock out of the park. You mention "Sonic 4" and you immediately draw comparisons to the original 16-bit anthology, and the good memories inspired by that much. For all that set-up, all Sega had to do was knock the pins down. The build up to the reveal of Sonic 4 footage (including appearances by PR manager, Mr. "Sonic-Cycle-is-dead" Ruby Eclipse) should have been able to do what the CG "proof of concept" posted above did, only more so, because of all the "hype" they were trying to generate.
Gee, what a surprise when they didn't do as such.
Then came the "leaking". I liked how some people, throughout the whole ordeal, actually wanted to say things to the effect of "Oh, poor Sega~!" and the like. Whatever, if the game was truly well made, a leak would have only served to be little more than FREE advertising for the game amongst the hardcore base that followed such exploits. Instead, it did anything but that.
So now, the name of the game is trying to go with this faux-apologetic "We're gonna get it right this time, we PROMISE~!" thing. I guess that's the new tag-line of choice, seeing how "We're taking him back to his ROOTS~!" has exhausted itself of all meaning. But you can bet that if the leak didn't happen, we would have gotten Sonic 4 as is (or was). The only thing that separates the more recent Sonic 4 episode of earlier this year from the 2006 disaster, is that, of course, Sega ALREADY made their money off of the latter. Here they were caught with their pants down before release, and they were left with either the choice to shape it up a bit to try and fix some of the glaring faults people saw through the leak, or just "quietly cancel" the title. Obviously, Iizuka and co. were still interested in the idea of trying to make money, so there you go.
But in the end, again, there's little to showcase that they actually "care". If they actually cared, things would have been different starting from the moment that "Sonic 4: Episode 1" was revealed. They had their "big chance" to show that they were turning over a new leaf, and they're likely never going to get such a thing again.
EXACTLY. I mean, the concept vid definitely is beautiful, but it's the way that the vid does more to showcase the kind of things that we should want to see from a game that calls itself "Sonic 4". The momentum is there. The level design is there. The reliance on an unnecessary game play element for this type of game (re: Homing Attack) is NOT there.
I hope Sega keeps on getting hammered with emails relating to this vid. If that's what it takes for them to finally take a hint...! 8D
You're seriously comparing Sonic 4 to Sonic 06? SERIOUSLY? A game which actually does look pretty damn good in the leaks, except that it was being played by someone who couldn't mess with a controller to save their lives, is being compared to the buggiest, most broken, so called "game" this generation? I love the fact that people [sonic slicer], not because it's a good or bad game, but it's because IT'S NOT JUST LIKE IT USED TO BE. They should suck it up and accept the new, more speedy gameplay, the homing attack, and yes, the GREEN EYES. Because the way fans have bitched, I've seen more complaints about green eye bullshit than actual level design. I actually haven't seen ONE single mention of level design or how the actual gameplay works with the rest. It's "CART LEVEL AND GREEN EYES, CART LEVEL AND GREEN EYES" as far as the eye can see. The way the game was leaked, which was some guy showing off the entire play of the game, while running into walls and having the reaction time of a turtle.
And yet you're acting as if they're shitting all over our faces with this, and showing us the biggest disrespect possible. While fans have been the ones to dish out most of the [parasitic bomb] around here. If there was a supportive fanbase, I'd blame Sega for just not getting the picture. But when your fanbase is a bunch of whiny, self-centered furry fapfic assholes saying THEY know better than people who've been working at the business for years, I'd get a little desperate with trying to please my fans too.
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Bravo Superbat, bravo~
Now, if only people would stop comparing fangames to Sega's recent works. To quote a Meerkat:
Kid, it's about time you put the past, behind you.
It's a moral I've lived with a looong time when I first heard it.
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Bravo Superbat, bravo~
Same to Sato. Seriously.
Also, am I the only person alive who thought the minecart level actually looked interesting?
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It's easy to work physics when someone's just trying to make a full motion video. =P I think Dimps feels that the new kind of physics works better in accordance to the gameplay/level design.
Fair enough. However, if that's the case, then shouldn't they not try to market this game as a return to Sonic's roots? 8D
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if the game was truly well made, a leak would have only served to be little more than FREE advertising for the game amongst the hardcore base that followed such exploits. Instead, it did anything but that.
All the rest notwithstanding, this just isn't true. Remember when HL2 was leaked and a lot of people were none to happy with what they saw? Remember when it came out and got several straight 10s in everything (undeservedly, but still)?
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Fair enough. However, if that's the case, then shouldn't they not try to market this game as a return to Sonic's roots? 8D
Well, its that in a way, it still is a return. Its going back to the very basic formula of the genesis games. No werehog, no boost system, no "useless" spindash... like the past few 3D games had it- just badniks, Egg head, and checkered loop-de-loops. (and a spindash that works proper)
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Well, its that in a way, it still is a return. Its going back to the very basic formula of the genesis games. No werehog, no boost system, no "useless" spindash... like the past few 3D games had it- just badniks, Egg head, and checkered loop-de-loops. (and a spindash that works proper)
Didn't Rush do that though? Or is/was the boost system what separates it from Sonic 4?
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Also, am I the only person alive who thought the minecart level actually looked interesting?
It had an interesting concept, yes. But either the person in the video just sucked that much at correctly moving the cart or the level needed a bunch of tweaking/better physics. If it's the latter, then i think the level would have been really enjoyable if they fixed it and decided to stick with it.
Also, i haven't been that up to date with the recent Sonic 4 vids, so i don't know how much they have actually improved on the physics.
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Same to Sato. Seriously.
Also, am I the only person alive who thought the minecart level actually looked interesting?
I liked it too. The way the guy played it just seemed like someone who used motion controls the way he played the rest of the game. Badly.
Fair enough. However, if that's the case, then shouldn't they not try to market this game as a return to Sonic's roots? 8D
And isn't it? It's a 2D game with classic level design and theme. Physics alone doesn't change that fact. New Super Mario Bros was marketed as the same thing, and it had different physics and a walljump. Same deal.
Didn't Rush do that though? Or is/was the boost system what separates it from Sonic 4?
Rush worked ENTIRELY on a boost system basis. You did tricks and boosted, did tricks and boosted, all through the levels. It was a completely different kind of gameplay, more style-based than traditional.
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And isn't it? It's a 2D game with classic level design and theme. Physics alone doesn't change that fact. New Super Mario Bros was marketed as the same thing, and it had different physics and a walljump. Same deal.
Fair point, but the difference I think is somewhat in the name, so to speak. With Mario games, the physics have seemingly always changed, to a point, from Super Mario Bros. forward. With classic Genesis Sonic games, from what I can remember, different abilities were added, like the Spin-Dash & such, but the overall physics & momentum seemingly stayed the same. (I'm no expert, so this is all open for debate)
After Sonic & Knuckles, that type of gameplay took a different turn with Dimps and Sonic Rush, like you mentioned. So if they are trying to market a game with their newer style of physics, then why not just call it Sonic Rush 3?
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Sonic Rush 3?
It's not on a DS and it doesn't have silly music. 8D
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Fair point, but the difference I think is somewhat in the name, so to speak. With Mario games, the physics have seemingly always changed, to a point, from Super Mario Bros. forward. With classic Genesis Sonic games, from what I can remember, different abilities were added, like the Spin-Dash & such, but the overall physics & momentum seemingly stayed the same. (I'm no expert, so this is all open for debate)
After Sonic & Knuckles, that type of gameplay took a different turn with Dimps and Sonic Rush, like you mentioned. So if they are trying to market a game with their newer style of physics, then why not just call it Sonic Rush 3?
I think the physics eventually changed quite a bit. But this isn't about the physics, really. It's more about the elements of the game itself, and how the game's trying to go back to its roots in those terms.
And again, Rush 3 would have to be a boost-based game. This one has changed physics, but not THAT changed from the originals that reaches Rush levels. Let it be Sonic 4. As long as it's good, haters should go screw themselves.
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I think the physics eventually changed quite a bit. But this isn't about the physics, really. It's more about the elements of the game itself, and how the game's trying to go back to its roots in those terms.
And again, Rush 3 would have to be a boost-based game. This one has changed physics, but not THAT changed from the originals that reaches Rush levels. Let it be Sonic 4. As long as it's good, haters should go screw themselves.
Really? I thought that one review that KG showed me of the guy playing it said the game was pretty much Rush. I could be wrong though.
So, just so I'm clear on this regarding what you & Flame have said, the only thing that separates Sonic 4 from being a "Rush" type game is the boosting?
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Pretty much yeah. The physics in 4 do seem very similar to those in Rush. The gravity in Sonic's jumps and those dreaded curves that everyone but me has had a problem with are the biggest clues. Otherwise, 4 has no boosting and no tricks and no other playable characters.
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So, just so I'm clear on this regarding what you & Flame have said, the only thing that separates Sonic 4 from being a "Rush" type game is the boosting?
In my opinion, i definitely believe so.
When you think about it, Sonic Colors for the DS is more or less like "Sonic Rush 3". Not just because it uses the same graphics engine, but because it uses the same qualities like, again, boosting and even the level design (dunno if DS Colors incorporates tricks). Even with the added abilities involving the wisps, the quality is still there. And i'm pretty certain that every Rush title would have to have Blaze playable, though i could be wrong about that. I mean, wasn't that one of the reasons why the Rush series was created for in the first place?
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I mean, wasn't that one of the reasons why the Rush series was created for in the first place?
Idunno, I never really played the games for Plot. BTW, I think this topic needs a name change.
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I think this topic needs a name change.
8D
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Here you go. (http://forum.rockmanpm.com/index.php?topic=5140.msg274334#msg274334)
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Here you go. (http://forum.rockmanpm.com/index.php?topic=5140.msg274334#msg274334)
<3
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(http://tantraman.net/smilies_files/BeatDeadHorse2.gif)
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I lol'd.
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Pretty much yeah. The physics in 4 do seem very similar to those in Rush. The gravity in Sonic's jumps and those dreaded curves that everyone but me has had a problem with are the biggest clues. Otherwise, 4 has no boosting and no tricks and no other playable characters.
Well alrighty then. So, lemme see if I've got all the information down pat here...
Sonic the Hedgehog 4 is marketed as a return to "old school Sonic roots" not because of its classic Sonic physics and momentum based gameplay, but rather because of its classic Sonic level design and 2D gameplay, which Rush essentially did except for the boosting, gravity, and dreaded curves. Sonic 4 also doesn't have any other playable characters like classic Sonic, even though Sonic did indeed have other playable characters by the 3rd game. So this game is essentially marketed as a return to classic Sonic roots even though quite a lot of aspects of Sonic's gameplay & other established 2D playable characters have been lost, forgotten, or ignored to focus on making a new, classic game which returns to Sonic's classic roots, even though it seems to look, play and handle like a "Rush" type game, sans the boosting & Blaze the Fire Kitty.
Did I miss anything?
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Well alrighty then. So, lemme see if I've got all the information down pat here...
Sonic the Hedgehog 4 is marketed as a return to "old school Sonic roots" not because of its classic Sonic physics and momentum based gameplay, but rather because of its classic Sonic level design and 2D gameplay, which Rush essentially did except for the boosting, gravity, and dreaded curves. Sonic 4 also doesn't have any other playable characters like classic Sonic, even though Sonic did indeed have other playable characters by the 3rd game. So this game is essentially marketed as a return to classic Sonic roots even though quite a lot of aspects of Sonic's gameplay & other established 2D playable characters have been lost, forgotten, or ignored to focus on making a new, classic game which returns to Sonic's classic roots, even though it seems to look, play and handle like a "Rush" type game, sans the boosting & Blaze the Fire Kitty.
Did I miss anything?
Sonic Rush, having levels that matched the design of the original in any way? The curves, gravity, boosting, verticality, size and overall COMPLETELY different design didn't make you realise it's pretty much a totally different game on all counts? Plus, even without using the boost mechanic, the levels there are pretty much based on speed with little platforming. if anything, I'd consider this Sonic closer to Sonic Advance. And how does it LOOK like a Rush game? Or play? Except for different physics, it's pretty much all classic. And it's only Episode 1. I'm guessing other characters will be available in the next episode. Or if they're not, I don't really see anything wrong with it. Didn't Megaman 9 get rid of the dash that had been in the game for years, and the charge beam just so it could be more like 2?
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Then they shouldn't market it as such, which unless I miss my guess, has always been Ben's main complaint about Sonic 4. If it was marketed as Sonic Rush 3, then I don't think there'd be an issue.
Again, EXACTLY.
You're seriously comparing Sonic 4 to Sonic 06? SERIOUSLY?
In a word? Yes. You didn't read what I said, though.
In my example, I pointed out how one case (Sonic 06) was a thing where a project made it to the market place, and its issues that made it to the final version where what incited bawling. Sega couldn't care less though, because they already MADE their money. Sonic 4 was a thing where the project was shown for what it was, and well, the joke was on Sega this time. They didn't even get a chance to make any money for "all their trouble". Oh! NOW they care! 8D
Again, if the leak had not happened, Sega would've been fine releasing the product as was, funky physics and design decisions not-withstanding.
I actually haven't seen ONE single mention of level design or how the actual gameplay works with the rest. It's "CART LEVEL AND GREEN EYES, CART LEVEL AND GREEN EYES" as far as the eye can see.
And where are you checking, pray-tell? A lot of the rhetoric that you have seen me spout? Echoed at the likes of NeoGAF, Sonic-Retro and etc. There are people who actually care about level design and game play, believe it or not, and not the borderline "Sonic Passion"-inspired kids/furs who dominate Sega USA's forums, believe it or not. If all you're citing is the likes of Sega USA's forums or whatever, then you're bound to not see what I see.
All the rest notwithstanding, this just isn't true. Remember when HL2 was leaked and a lot of people were none to happy with what they saw? Remember when it came out and got several straight 10s in everything (undeservedly, but still)?
Different cases, here. In HL2's case, hackers stole what was effectively incomplete source code and maps from Valve, compiled it all together and made it all into a make shift "beta". The game was clearly not ready for consumption yet by any means, and people were getting notions from what was a "game" basically thrown together by hackers. To put it in perspective, this is comparable to when some Neo Geo rom-hackers/pirates took a beta version of Garou (Fatal Fury): Mark of the Wolves, and did whatever bit of rom-tweaking necessary to put a "working" rom online for people to play, back in 1999/2000.
In Sonic 4's case, code was released to those who had access to devkit/presskit software on the 360, which was available to those who had specific connections (reporters, reviewers, etc.). Since Sonic 4 had already been submitted for ESRB certification by that point, and data already existed for PSN and Live certification, as well, again, it's highly likely that the game was well on its way to meeting that original Spring/Summer release date that Sega had in mind. Then, for whatever reason, some schmuck was willing to jeopardize his livelihood to showcase what was basically a completed version (or close enough to it, if they were willing to show it off to the press) of Sega's new game.
Again, clearly different cases in mind here. Comparably speaking, Sonic 4's episode earlier this year has more in common with how Halo Reach got leaked on the internet earlier this week, 3 weeks before its intended release.
http://tantraman.net/smilies_files/BeatDeadHorse2.gif
If it's what it takes for Sega to take a hint, by all means, rake up the "deadweight" combo some more. Sega's definitely aware of the video now, it'll be on them to see what they do with the knowledge presented to them.
After all, it only took several years, and a number of 8-bit MM rom-hacks/fan works being made, before Capcom finally wised up to the idea of "HEY! Maybe we should listen to what is going on out there!". Perhaps Sega's "Eureka" moment is still out there, waiting to be grasped.
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Again, EXACTLY.
In a word? Yes. You didn't read what I said, though.
In my example, I pointed out how one case (Sonic 06) was a thing where a project made it to the market place, and its issues that made it to the final version where what incited bawling. Sega couldn't care less though, because they already MADE their money. Sonic 4 was a thing where the project was shown for what it was, and well, the joke was on Sega this time. They didn't even get a chance to make any money for "all their trouble". Oh! NOW they care! 8D
Again, if the leak had not happened, Sega would've been fine releasing the product as was, funky physics and design decisions not-withstanding.
And where are you checking, pray-tell? A lot of the rhetoric that you have seen me spout? Echoed at the likes of NeoGAF, Sonic-Retro and etc. There are people who actually care about level design and game play, believe it or not, and not the borderline "Sonic Passion"-inspired kids/furs who dominate Sega USA's forums, believe it or not. If all you're citing is the likes of Sega USA's forums or whatever, then you're bound to not see what I see.
Different cases, here. In HL2's case, hackers stole what was effectively incomplete source code and maps from Valve, compiled it all together and made it all into a make shift "beta". The game was clearly not ready for consumption yet by any means, and people were getting notions from what was a "game" basically thrown together by hackers. To put it in perspective, this is comparable to when some Neo Geo rom-hackers/pirates took a beta version of Garou (Fatal Fury): Mark of the Wolves, and did whatever bit of rom-tweaking necessary to put a "working" rom online for people to play, back in 1999/2000.
In Sonic 4's case, code was released to those who had access to devkit/presskit software on the 360, which was available to those who had specific connections (reporters, reviewers, etc.). Since Sonic 4 had already been submitted for ESRB certification by that point, and data already existed for PSN and Live certification, as well, again, it's highly likely that the game was well on its way to meeting that original Spring/Summer release date that Sega had in mind. Then, for whatever reason, some schmuck was willing to jeopardize his livelihood to showcase what was basically a completed version (or close enough to it, if they were willing to show it off to the press) of Sega's new game.
Again, clearly different cases in mind here. Comparably speaking, Sonic 4's episode earlier this year has more in common with how Halo Reach got leaked on the internet earlier this week, 3 weeks before its intended release.
If it's what it takes for Sega to take a hint, by all means, rake up the "deadweight" combo some more. Sega's definitely aware of the video now, it'll be on them to see what they do with the knowledge presented to them.
After all, it only took several years, and a number of 8-bit MM rom-hacks/fan works being made, before Capcom finally wised up to the idea of "HEY! Maybe we should listen to what is going on out there!". Perhaps Sega's "Eureka" moment is still out there, waiting to be grasped.
They're marketing it the same way Nintendo marketed New Super Mario Bros, which was also different from its predecessors in physics and setup.
Honestly, what was leaked was for all intents and purposes, a demo version. Something for the press and for the ERSB. Not even review-approved, so I'd imagine it was a long way from being ACTUALLY done. And you know what? Aside from a few problems, it looked fine. There were things to fix, but I'd imagine the ERSB gets all manner of broken games in order for them to get rated early, and as this is supposed to be something which we're not MEANT to even see, then I can't pass judgement on Sega in any way by SUPPOSING that it's a game that was near its release date before getting pushed back.
Suppositions and baseless accusations are all incredibly nice, but I find it funny how nobody has played the game to test this in the first place. To get even a small feel for the gameplay. But nooooo, when Sega tries to fix their ways, they're eeeevil bastards and must be treated with total disrespect for doing so.
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Again, clearly different cases in mind here. Comparably speaking, Sonic 4's episode earlier this year has more in common with how Halo Reach got leaked on the internet earlier this week, 3 weeks before its intended release.
Well, all right. As long as no-one is under the illusion that leaked gameplay is usually indicative of final gameplay.
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Sonic Rush, having levels that matched the design of the original in any way? The curves, gravity, boosting, verticality, size and overall COMPLETELY different design didn't make you realise it's pretty much a totally different game on all counts? Plus, even without using the boost mechanic, the levels there are pretty much based on speed with little platforming. if anything, I'd consider this Sonic closer to Sonic Advance. And how does it LOOK like a Rush game? Or play? Except for different physics, it's pretty much all classic. And it's only Episode 1. I'm guessing other characters will be available in the next episode. Or if they're not, I don't really see anything wrong with it. Didn't Megaman 9 get rid of the dash that had been in the game for years, and the charge beam just so it could be more like 2?
See this is why I'm asking. Several people in this topic have said that Sonic 4 essentially looks like a Rush game based on what they saw, except without the boosting. This one guy who gave a review for Sonic 4, praising the game, still said "yeah, it's Rush" when describing how it looks and feels when he played the game. And like I said, I'm no expert on Sonic. I don't remember the classic Sonic games as super memorably as I do Mario games or Zelda games, as I briefly played them & Sonic CD on my brother's Genesis. So no, Rush did not make me realize that it's a "totally different games on all counts" as you put it! XD
This is why I'm asking these questions, and trying to compile all the facts about why people are complaining, praising, loving, hating, [speed burner]ing, vilifying this game and the franchise. And ultimately, only Ben here has given me full, well rounded out rationalizations as to why SEGA should be ashamed of what they have done and what they continue to do with their mascot and how they market him to fans. Mind you, I don't agree with all his view points because in the long run, I'm not a hardcore classic Genesis Sonic fan like he is. However, I can understand why someone like him would be really [tornado fang]ing frustrated. It's all hypothetical at this point, but still he brings up a good point. If that leaked never happened, regardless of whether it was just a demo or really close to the final product, would SEGA have gone back to fix Sonic 4 or would they have just released it like it is?
But nooooo, when Sega tries to fix their ways, they're eeeevil bastards and must be treated with total disrespect for doing so.
Perhaps not with total disrespect, but there comes a point when their shitty service has to be addressed.
The best analogy I can give for this is to imagine that SEGA is a restaurant. Now, it's customary to tip the waiter, but imagine the waiter keeps up [tornado fang]ing up your order, like say more than 3 times. (I consider more than twice worthy of no tip, but that's me) Sure, he eventually gets it right after going back and fixing it all those times, but after all the times he's screwed up, do you tip him as well or forget how god awful the service was? Or, for that matter, do you continue to go back to that restaurant at all in the first place? And lets say you do go back and you see the same waiter who [tornado fang]'d up your order the last time. Do you walk in and sit down and eat, hoping you don't get the same waiter, or do you put up with it because the food is so good?
It really all depends on what type of person you are. Clearly, Ben and other fans like him have had enough shitty service from SEGA, so when they continue to market a game as "going back to Sonic's roots" like I assume they've done in the past (again, not an expert), they don't forget that same shitty service they received in the past. Whereas other fans are willing to continue to give SEGA a chance because the service may be shitty, but they still like the quality of food.
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Well if they don't like the service, stop going to the restaurant.
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I think he has, at this point. I think the problem is that the chefs at the restaurant use to be so good, and it's just hard to let go and see what bad ownership has done to a good restaurant.
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Very well structured on that scenario PB, but people like Ben could be extremely butthurt and continue to keep bringing up the negative parts of the resturant even though he/she has stopped going there ever since. It's kinda like beating a dead horse. Plus I think it's the consumer's/owner's actions, not the chef's (This case, the programmer's) fault (Due to them following what the lead developer wants to see, rather than touching things up).
Say Sega's still correcting it's errors. due to the extremely poor reviews given by hypocritical critics, it makes it hard for them to earn back thier consumers (because they follow the critics around like mosquitoes, therefore they take the critic's word for it and spread it around like wildfire), therefore losing half thier salary.
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In my example, I pointed out how one case (Sonic 06) was a thing where a project made it to the market place, and its issues that made it to the final version where what incited bawling. Sega couldn't care less though, because they already MADE their money. Sonic 4 was a thing where the project was shown for what it was, and well, the joke was on Sega this time. They didn't even get a chance to make any money for "all their trouble". Oh! NOW they care! lolwut
Again, if the leak had not happened, Sega would've been fine releasing the product as was, funky physics and design decisions not-withstanding.
What im getting from this- is that basically, Sega releases Sonic 06. its full of problems and everyone finds something to [sonic slicer] about. Sega should basically say sorry, and re-release the game fixed? or recall every single one and release another version?
how would that benefit the company? Nobody seems to remember that Sega is a company. Yeah yeah I know. go ahead and whine at the "company excuse". but its true. they make a game to make money, nothing more. Some companies care more about the fans wishes and respond better to them than others. Sega made Sonic 06. it was hated universally. So ok. they made their money, what they could- and lets move on to something new then. Sort of how X7 flopped, and so Capcom did something different witht he next game.
They made storybook sonic, (which some people liked, and generally were liked better.) then they made Unlesahed. They made the manhog. people complained about the manhog, but found the regular sonic stages to be alright. so, Now comes colors, which is exactly what the fans were trying to get through Sega's skulls after unleashed. just make a game with the daytime segments. So they are. that shows that they saw that it works, and that hey, look at that, it pleases the fans too. two birds with one stone.
Now Sonic 4. A video is leaked, somethin which isnt even FINAL, and people are already complaining that Sega should be ashamed that it had glitches? thats like say- that recent X6 prototype having been leaked out, and people bitching about how Capcom should be ashamed that a non final product has glitches and is incomplete. How dare a videogame company not make games perfect from day 1!
Keep in mind trailers would have surfaced event anyway, and other gameplay videos in afterwards, where people would have bitched about any problems there, if any.
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Funnily enough, I've been one of the most open critics of Sonic I've seen on this board, saying out loud that I considered pretty much every single damn attempt Sega ever made in the last ten years for any kind of "rebirth" to be extremely sub-par and to the point of being extremely unplayable and horrible. Sonic games today are synonymous with "BAD". Period. No amount of arguing about reviews or general opinion will change that.
What I do take an issue with, is people criticizing this new game, which simply seems like Sega catering to fans in any way they can, and it does look pretty fun, simply because it's not like the old ones. Screw that! I think that, while we do have the right to complain about Sega, being nitpicky at this point is something stupid. I say give us a GOOD GAME. I don't care if it deviates from the norm a bit. If it's got good quality, why bother needlessly complaining that it's not a picture perfect 16-bit rebirth?
I just want a good Sonic game. Fans can [sonic slicer] however they like about how they want THIS SPECIFICALLY or THAT. I want something, as long as it's something good.
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They're marketing it the same way Nintendo marketed New Super Mario Bros, which was also different from its predecessors in physics and setup.
Apples and oranges, again. As Blues said earlier, there still is a problem with trying to roll S4 in the same way. NSMB was a game that was marketed as a "new take" on that original SMB formula. It was not trying to be "SMB4/5" (take your pick on numbering) any more than Yoshi's Island or SM64 was. It was meant to be its own product unto itself. Sonic 4, on the other hand, directly tries to invoke the spirit of the 16-bit game's legacy by ATTACHING ITSELF to it, and yet then goes on a completely different tangent from what those who expect an "heir" to that legacy to do. And that's where the problem is. There's certain expectations that people have in mind when it comes to sequels. This is only more so the case, depending on which "school of thought" applies when we're talking about sequels.
For example: Street Fighter 4 was allowed to be its own beast, separate from its predecessors, because in the end, the realistic expectation was that it was not going to play like either 3S or Zero/Alpha 3. "SF4" was, in essence, the beginning of a "new series" with the SF anthology. In that same way (much as I haven't liked it at first), MvC3 has changed things up from its immediate predecessor, which even so, goes right along with how MvC2 was different from MvC1.
In this same train of thought, KOF: Maximum Impact and its sequels may have the name tag and share a number of characters, but that's where the similarities with the 2D, "mainline" KOF games end. Like it or lump it, the MI games have a distinctly different "feel" about them from the 2D games, so you can't crucify the spin-offs for being what they're clearly NOT trying to be, or otherwise emulate. That's like hating the Sonic Rush games for not being verbatim to the Genesis games. The Rush games were clearly trying to do something else, and thus you'll either love or hate depending on the games' individual merits. (Oh, and please believe I got plenty in that area alone! 8D )
On the other hand, games like Tekken 6/BR, for the sake of our fighting game theme, have a different set of expectations. People expect successive games to play like an improved version of what they got before. In fact, Tekken 4 is widely-considered the worst game in the series because it did a lot of things to its own, as well as the series' detriment (especially coming on the heels of the widely loved 3 and Tag). That's why the later Tekken 5 had to do more to clean up 4's mess and get back on track. And we can more than likely bet that the "Next Tekken" game (already in the works, and stands to be out before Namco's Tekken x SF game) will likely do more to follow suit.
In this same vein, that's where Sonic 4 falls for guys like myself. It's not what we expected from such a modern day game that tries to tack itself on to a SPECIFIC iteration of the series that carries a certain amount of weight with it. If Sonic 4 was named any thing else you or some other PR schmuck could imagine, that would have perfectly fine. The game would then be able to be judged as an entity unto itself, not unlike the Rushes, the Storybooks and everything else that came before it. Who knows, maybe the game, as a proposed "Sonic Retro" that's not connected to anything else, could have been something special. But now and forevermore, 4, and any games attached to it, will always be judged by its immediate predecessors within its lineage. And again, that's the crux of the issue. It has NOTHING to do with Sonic 4 as an individual game any longer, and everything to do with if it can live up to the high bar that Sonic 1, 2, 3&K set for it. And you only have the brilliant minds at Sega to blame for pitting the game up against such a tough act that, at this rate, it can't hope to follow.
Very well structured on that scenario PB, but people like Ben could be extremely butthurt and continue to keep bringing up the negative parts of the returant even though he/she has stopped going there ever since. It's kinda like beating a dead horse. Plus I think it's the consumer's/owner's actions, not the chef's (This case, the programmer's) fault (Due to them following what the lead developer wants to see, rather than touching things up).
Say Sega's still correcting it's errors. due to the extremely poor reviews given by hypocritical critics, it makes it hard for them to earn back thier consumers (because they follow the critics around like mosquitoes, therefore they take the critic's word for it and spread it around like wildfire), therefore losing half thier salary.
And you know what? It's tough, but fair. Sega, like any body else in this industry, is in it for number one, and they're certainly in it for the money. That's what capitalism is all about. Everything is fine and dandy as long as the consumers and the shareholders are happy. It's when they aren't, THAT is when problems start occurring. If such "establishments" don't see the issue when such a thing happens, well, that's an even bigger problem.
So, when Sega does bone-headed decisions like those concerning Sonic 4's development, the shoddy PS3 port of Bayonetta and cutting out content from Yakuza 3 (which there are still TROPHIES for!), they can't exactly be expect to be rewarded with such behavior. If they don't like the "bad press" that ensues, then by all means! DO BETTER. Take a cue from Domino's Pizza, for crying out loud! 8D
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What im getting from this- is that basically, Sega releases Sonic 06. its full of problems and everyone finds something to [sonic slicer] about. Sega should basically say sorry, and re-release the game fixed? or recall every single one and release another version?
how would that benefit the company? Nobody seems to remember that Sega is a company. Yeah yeah I know. go ahead and whine at the "company excuse". but its true. they make a game to make money, nothing more. Some companies care more about the fans wishes and respond better to them than others. Sega made Sonic 06. it was hated universally. So ok. they made their money, what they could- and lets move on to something new then. Sort of how X7 flopped, and so Capcom did something different witht he next game.
What do you mean, "How would that benefit the company?" Do you even know how PR or Customer Service works? The first, FIRST, step towards keeping your customers happy, the people who purchase your products with their money, is to INSTANTLY admit a mistake when then [tornado fang] up and to apologize. It's one reason why Netflix flourishes while Blockbuster dies, because not only is Netflix a far superior company & video rental service, but because when they [tornado fang] up, they IMMEDIATELY say they're sorry and try to make it up to you, which is the 2nd step: making it up to your customers. Good customer service & PR can go a long, LOOOOOOOOOONNG way into keeping a business going, because people will definitely pay even a little extra for the promise of good customer service, and knowing that when an accident or screw up happen, the problem will be apologized for as well as dealt with with as little hassle as possible.
Now like you said regarding Colors, it seems like SEGA is trying to make a better day-time Unleashed game, which is a good thing, cept for people who did not like the day-time mode in Unleashed. However, you can't please everyone. Regardless, for the most part I don't really see anyone complaining about Colors that much. I'm sure they're out their somewhere, but this game seems to be widely accepted, and IMO, looks like a lot of fun.
Hell, Sonic 4, to me, looks like a lot of fun too. All I'm saying is that I understand how people like Ben get pissed at how SEGA's PR department has handled the Sonic 4 situation. The best MM equivalent I could give towards that is if Capcom made an X9 game and it played like a Zero series game.
Take a cue from Domino's Pizza, for crying out loud! 8D
It's still [parasitic bomb] pizza.......but at least now it's actually edible! XD
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I understand why ben's all pissy too, I just dont GET IT though. If your so intent on the fact that its named Sonic 4 and therefore has a chip on it's shoulder, then PLAY it, and decide for yourself if that chip was warranted or not. Dont judge it from pre released demos and videos of something thats not final yet. Going back to my example, its like people judging that prototype of X6 before the actual X6 comes out with everything finished up in its nice little nightmare bow. I just dont see that as fair.
*in b4 someone brings up my Megaman 9 and 10 bitching*
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*brings up Flame's R9 and R10 bitching*
Nah, I kid. I'm looking forward to S4, myself.
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I can actually see the line of thought here.
It's pretty much what happened when Bethesda did Fallout 3. Everyone said they were making a huge mistake for not creating a direct sequel which was an isometric classic RPG with the kind of old gameplay completely intact. Fans still [sonic slicer] ALOT about it, many continue to call the game "Oblivion with guns" and keep on refusing to play it.
I know that while certain game sequels focus on being something different and evolved in terms of gameplay and presentation (MGS, Assassin's Creed, Super Mario Bros...) other kinds of sequels focus on being more of the same, an expansion of what had already been seen (Megaman, Phoenix Wright, Tekken...). The problem you have with this, is the fact that the first few numbered games were the latter, and are now attempting to become the former, delivering something new instead of the same fans expected.
...I honestly say, tough. Original games were released almost 20 years ago. They're making a sequel in the vein of this "new take" thing companies seem to have towards some games now. I have absolutely no problem with this. And anyone expecting Sega, or pretty much ANY other company to release something with the physics of yesteryear, is being unrealistic. Most remakes nowadays don't choose to take that trouble. Rocket Knight and Bionic Commando Rearmed took a completely different physics approach, which WORKED. People bitched, yes. But honestly, screw them. We got two amazingly fun games out of it.
I'm one of the people who chose to be excited about Fallout 3, had some great fun playing it, and even considers it one of his favorite games. I will play Sonic 4 and judge it not according to it being a sequel which is supposed to be retro, but on its own merits. I suggest people do the same, otherwise, they're gonna be missing out on alot.
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this thread just takes the words right out of my mouth yet how can anyone fix up '06? Can we even consider Sonic 4 apart of the "classics"?
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I'm one of the people who chose to be excited about Fallout 3,
You and me both. I even go the lunchpail and bobblehead from the pre-order. retro music, headshot insta-kills.. oh it was joyous.
this thread just takes the words right out of my mouth yet how can anyone fix up '06? Can we even consider Sonic 4 apart of the "classics"?
Let's just say that Red's a poisounous color.. I shuddered when I saw red stripes on Shadow at first, actually. We can consider Sonic 4 as a classic once it does well also. It's like calling the kettle black for the most part (Sega and Nintendo being rivals for the most part back in the day, and we had doubts of Mario Galaxy after Sunshine's release so..)
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this thread just takes the words right out of my mouth yet how can anyone fix up '06? Can we even consider Sonic 4 apart of the "classics"?
06 COULD have been fixed. It had the right concept, the right idea. It was finally, a return to the Adventure genre. It associated Sonic with realism, and high quality values. It was built with levels stemming from adventure fields, and stuff like Sonic being followed by Tails at certain points. It WANTED to be Adventure.
...I have no idea how it ended up that badly. Were the developers just given a couple of weeks to make the game? Did they get in over their heads? Because honestly, there's an idea in there, but I don't see no GAME.
But man, it could have been beautiful if done well.
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It definitely felt like the Adventure games.
Not to mention that after having [tornado fang]'d with Shadow in his game, they went with the STHH true ending and gave him a "clean start" as it were. No geralds. No aliens, no angst, (well maybe a little) no WHO AM I, no GUNS... Just plain Shadow. I like that they made him part of GUN. although some [sonic slicer] about that, it really adds to the idea that his life has sort of been rebooted. Gun and him were at each others throats in STHH, and now, all is said and done, and he's even working for them, having put aside the [parasitic bomb] they did.
Oh also- Dan Green Mephies.
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It definitely felt like the Adventure games.
Not to mention that after having [tornado fang]'d with Shadow in his game, they went with the STHH true ending and gave him a "clean start" as it were. No geralds. No aliens, no angst, (well maybe a little) no WHO AM I, no GUNS... Just plain Shadow. I like that they made him part of GUN. although some [sonic slicer] about that, it really adds to the idea that his life has sort of been rebooted. Gun and him were at each others throats in STHH, and now, all is said and done, and he's even working for them, having put aside the [parasitic bomb] they did.
Oh also- Dan Green Mephies.
So he's working for the people who killed the only person he loved.
...that makes so much sense.
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Still felt different for his character. Something new. What better (and slightly cliche)place for an immortal ultimate life form than with the military? 8D
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Because it's like making Batman the Punisher.
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lol.
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With proper imagination and the right technology that can be possible!
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Indeed :D
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Sega will try something similar for the next Sonic game.
...and fans will [sonic slicer] INCESSANTLY because Sonic's pupils will not be aligned and his shoes aren't of the pointy variety.
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That would be funny if it wasn't true. But that's exactly what would happen.