RockmanPM Forums
Rockman & Community => Rockman Series => X => Topic started by: Waifu on November 01, 2009, 04:48:12 AM
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A recurring theme in the series is that Reploids are striving for independence or to be at least be recognized as equals but the humans see the Reploids as nothing more than tools. The Mavericks are Reploid criminals who wreak havoc on humans and other Reploids for no other reason than to cause trouble, making it difficult for Reploids to be taken seriously. Are Reploids in the series discriminated against? I know that world may have still had old wounds from the Wily Incidents that reopened when the Mavericks attacked and the humans may even to this day despise all robots because of it. Has this theme of prejudice, distrust and political implications of free thinking Reploids has been explored in the X series?
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I don't remember anything like that in X series, only Zero and ZX in a way have the whole robot racism thing AFAIK.
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I don't even remember if there were humans in the X series, except for Cain.
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The only ones that went AWOL, were the ones were infected with malaware or "the dreaded" Sigma Virus, or influinced by Sigma during meetings. He was the "first" to see the error of humanity with a will to exterminate them. game plot. :\
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I don't even remember if there were humans in the X series, except for Cain.
There weren't. But the thing is, Zero-series is all about human prejudice against Reploids, and yet the only human featured on-screen before Z4 was on the Reploids' side. They general public does not have to be physically present for their views to be expressed through the plot.
Repliforce and Rebellion both claimed to be victims of human prejudice, that is the tendency to call one Maverick without just cause. On the other hand Rebellion WAS trying to launch a radioactive nuke on the world to further "evolution" knowing full well the risks of Maverick behavior that Force Metal carried. The racist attitude seemed to be returned as Epsilon banished humans from Giga City, also. If he wasn't Maverick, he was certainly borderline.
Repliforce is perhaps the most valid scenario for being victims of prejudice during the X-series, although their own attitude didn't help matters. Lack of diplomacy being their own failing, the fact that they responded to accusations with threats, aggression, and building massive weapons, is what lead to their downfall. Even though the accusations were unfounded, Repliforce's response could easily have been seen as justifying them. Whereas Ciel's Resistance organized merely to defend themselves (and are barely able to at that), Repliforce effectively held the planet at gunpoint.
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Right, point taken. It just seems to have been a growing issue that evolves in the Zero Series and concludes before ZX starts.
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The way I see Epsilon is more an extremist. Not a maverick, but an extremist. After all, he made sure to not harm civilians in Giga city, only his attackers, and We can assume tht the humans were banished without harm, since the sole reason X was sent was because of the rebellion itself, the idea... Nothing of Mavericks was really mentioned... Plus, the fact that they were simply "banished" as opposed to outright tossed off or killed says something. X himself did not seem to think Epsilon was maverick, (or entirely one) as when he talks to Redips, stating that at least epsilon understood the risks of his actions, "at least he wasnt maverick from the start". Plus his Maverick Status was deferred due to Redips.
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The way I see Epsilon is more an extremist. Not a maverick, but an extremist. After all, he made sure to not harm civilians in Giga city, only his attackers, and We can assume tht the humans were banished without harm, since the sole reason X was sent was because of the rebellion itself, the idea... Nothing of Mavericks was really mentioned... Plus, the fact that they were simply "banished" as opposed to outright tossed off or killed says something. X himself did not seem to think Epsilon was maverick, (or entirely one) as when he talks to Redips, stating that at least epsilon understood the risks of his actions, "at least he wasnt maverick from the start". Plus his Maverick Status was deferred due to Redips.
This entire post made me realize that Command Mission had a really interesting but concise storyline. I wish if there'd be another one soonish. :(
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Yeah. CM 2 would be greatly appreciated.
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The way I see Epsilon is more an extremist. Not a maverick, but an extremist. After all, he made sure to not harm civilians in Giga city, only his attackers, and We can assume tht the humans were banished without harm, since the sole reason X was sent was because of the rebellion itself, the idea... Nothing of Mavericks was really mentioned... Plus, the fact that they were simply "banished" as opposed to outright tossed off or killed says something. X himself did not seem to think Epsilon was maverick, (or entirely one) as when he talks to Redips, stating that at least epsilon understood the risks of his actions, "at least he wasnt maverick from the start". Plus his Maverick Status was deferred due to Redips.
Well, this is why I said "borderline". It is true that Epsilon is a lot less aggressive than your regular Maverick. But at his core there is still the dismissal of humans and the obsession with Reploid evolution, regardless of risk, or for that matter, the will of those affected.
Even if Epsilon himself tried to keep it clean compared to the likes of, say, Lumine, the core philosophy still attracts a lot of scum. Once you have labeled a group as inferior and/or irrelevant, disposing of them as opposed to herding them is only a small leap. It's a leap that Epsilon himself didn't want to make, but can we say the same of his henchman? Whatever code of honor he held pretty much ends once you get past Ferham and Scarface. And it's not as if there was not aggressive action taken within Giga City; Lagrano was destroyed and Jango attempted to blow up the Central Tower. If you spread that same influence that's affecting his henchmen across the world, it's pretty much asking for hell. I think that started to dawn on Ferham when she decided to abandon the "ideal" and destroy the remaining Supra Force Metal rather than risk it being abused by someone like Redips again.
All of this demonstrates why Epsilon was still dangerous. Where you draw the line in defining "Maverick" is beside the point after that. Whether or not he himself will attack humanity, his idea of evolution still encourages it, and he was utterly determined to force it upon the rest of the world.
"Deferred" doesn't mean he wasn't Maverick. It means the people who have to make that call were not confident enough to pass judgment either way. Hence, borderline. Redips was effectively the scapegoat that allowed them to dodge the issue. In reality he was not responsible for Rebellion, but he was the biggest threat in the end, so blaming it all on him was the easy way out.
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How the Rebellion took care of prisoners of war also left something to be desired. Silver Horned's treatment of Nana alone deserved him Irregular status.
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There weren't.
Actually, there is. There's some random human dude greeting a Repliroid in the beginning cutscene of Irregular Hunter X before the bomb goes off, the bridge blows up and the bus comes down.
Silver Horned's treatment of Nana alone deserved him Irregular status.
What did he do to her anyway, aside from strapping her into that chair, leaving all possible accounts of sexual harassment out of the discussion for the moment. Did it serve any purpose?
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some random human dude greeting a Repliroid in the beginning cutscene of Irregular Hunter X
You know, when *I* consider something to be nitpicky, that's pretty bad.
You know what I mean. If you're going to go so far as to point out what is effectively scenery, you could just site the original X1, unless you believe those cars in the opening were driving themselves.
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Reploids can drive too! Talk about prejudice, Hypershell.
What did he do to her anyway, aside from strapping her into that chair, leaving all possible accounts of sexual harassment out of the discussion for the moment. Did it serve any purpose?
They were forcedly putting her abilities as a navigator to good use. Information extraction and making her do her job for them.
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Reploids can drive too! Talk about prejudice, Hypershell.
Take Roll Caskett, subtract 3000+ years of technology. Would you trust that behind the wheel?
Maverick Hunters aren't helping that image much, either; how often do they not crash whatever they're driving?
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You forget, Robots had proven themselves to be great drivers a century earlier; Battle and Chase.
In my opinion, humans are much less trustworthy behind the wheel than robots, and Roll Caskett is more human than your classical robot.
As for the Hunters, they abide by law of cool and are equipped with self exploding bikes that have no brakes.
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As for the Hunters, they abide by law of cool and are equipped with self exploding bikes that have no brakes.
Good one.
Well, the Hunters actually had bikes with brakes during Sigma's rebellion, but apparently the maintance for those things were too high which is why they removed the brakes from the Ride Chasers after IHX.
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Good one.
Well, the Hunters actually had bikes with brakes during Sigma's rebellion, but apparently the maintance for those things were too high which is why they removed the brakes from the Ride Chasers after IHX.
Using the brakes isn´t a good Idea...Ask GBD
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Well, this is why I said "borderline". It is true that Epsilon is a lot less aggressive than your regular Maverick. But at his core there is still the dismissal of humans and the obsession with Reploid evolution, regardless of risk, or for that matter, the will of those affected.
Even if Epsilon himself tried to keep it clean compared to the likes of, say, Lumine, the core philosophy still attracts a lot of scum. Once you have labeled a group as inferior and/or irrelevant, disposing of them as opposed to herding them is only a small leap. It's a leap that Epsilon himself didn't want to make, but can we say the same of his henchman? Whatever code of honor he held pretty much ends once you get past Ferham and Scarface. And it's not as if there was not aggressive action taken within Giga City; Lagrano was destroyed and Jango attempted to blow up the Central Tower. If you spread that same influence that's affecting his henchmen across the world, it's pretty much asking for hell. I think that started to dawn on Ferham when she decided to abandon the "ideal" and destroy the remaining Supra Force Metal rather than risk it being abused by someone like Redips again.
All of this demonstrates why Epsilon was still dangerous. Where you draw the line in defining "Maverick" is beside the point after that. Whether or not he himself will attack humanity, his idea of evolution still encourages it, and he was utterly determined to force it upon the rest of the world.
"Deferred" doesn't mean he wasn't Maverick. It means the people who have to make that call were not confident enough to pass judgment either way. Hence, borderline. Redips was effectively the scapegoat that allowed them to dodge the issue. In reality he was not responsible for Rebellion, but he was the biggest threat in the end, so blaming it all on him was the easy way out.
Thats true... While Epsilon and his 2 right hands Ferham and Scarface were clean, so to speak, (ferham was even willing to help out the hunters by removing one of the SFM fragments, and later, deciding to get rid of it since it was too dangerous to leave lying around when the rebellion was all killed.) the rest were pretty much your average aggressive maverick. Especially Silverhorn, and Botos, who really only cared for his own power. I still like to view Epsilon in a different light, borderline, like you said. It really gives meaning to his thing on "only future generations can judge" I mean, any reploid could really do what he did, out of free will, since they have it, if they so decided to.
What did he do to her anyway, aside from strapping her into that chair, leaving all possible accounts of sexual harassment out of the discussion for the moment. Did it serve any purpose?
Well he also stepped on her.
You forget, Robots had proven themselves to be great drivers a century earlier; Battle and Chase.
In my opinion, humans are much less trustworthy behind the wheel than robots, and Roll Caskett is more human than your classical robot.
As for the Hunters, they abide by law of cool and are equipped with self exploding bikes that have no brakes.
I seriously dont think ALL the car had reploids in them though. Its likely a few were humans.
and in any case, for the majority of the X series, we have not been shown humans to any large extent outside of Cain.
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I seriously dont think ALL the car had reploids in them though. Its likely a few were humans.
There really weren't that many cars. They could easily have all been driven by civilian Repliroids fleeing the scene. We simply do not know.
If anything, the humans shown fleeing from the Mechaniroids in Day of Sigma are a much more clear cut example of their presence.
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Yeah. we aren't shown drivers, so we cant say
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This topic needs more robotic racist slang
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Did it ever occur to anyone that in the year 21XX they might have I, Robot style self-driven cars?
I would consider X6 to be a good example of racism. Alia & X discuss how Gate's creations weren't really dangerous when they were disposed. I can't believe I'm mentioning this before Hypershell.
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How about in Mega Man X5 when the Mavericks themselves attack the Maverick Hunters for being a facist organization who wouldn't hesitate to kill those who don't agree with their policies?
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I would consider X6 to be a good example of racism. Alia & X discuss how Gate's creations weren't really dangerous when they were disposed. I can't believe I'm mentioning this before Hypershell.
They were disposed of because they were unanalyzable and potentially dangerous. That and they just didn't like that snobby Gate.
How about in Mega Man X5 when the Mavericks themselves attack the Maverick Hunters for being a facist organization who wouldn't hesitate to kill those who don't agree with their policies?
That never happened, and certainly not in X5.
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They were disposed of because they were unanalyzable and potentially dangerous. That and they just didn't like that snobby Gate.
That never happened, and certainly not in X5.
Plus, they had a habit of sometimes not following rules. To which Gate didnt scold them, but rather encouraged them. Case in point Scaravitch and Shark Player.
also that sounds more like what Sigma accuses them of in X4... not 5...
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Even so, some of the Mavericks in X5 didn't really trust the Hunters and their distrust of the Hunters had pretty much been confirmed when they were defeated by X and Zero.
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They never used the term fascists or anything, just that they generally disliked their methods. Izzy Glow for one. And Adler left some time becuse of what happened to launch octopus, as he became dissatisfied with Hunter methods.
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Plus, they had a habit of sometimes not following rules. To which Gate didnt scold them, but rather encouraged them. Case in point Scaravitch and Shark Player.
Scaravich deserved to die because he went where he wasn't supposed to? Metal Shark was rezzing Reploids, which is kinda dangerous, but the other 6 weren't that bad. Turtloid & Sheldon were just killed for being advanced. They couldn't help that. Of course they were loyal to Gate.
In X4 Repliforce was leading a revolution against the racist humans. It was pretty heavily implied.
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the other 6 weren't that bad
I don't agree with that statement. Yes, Turtloid and Sheldon were honorable. So was Wolfang. But what about Heatnix? He left his comrads die just because he was stronger than they were and didn't want to be held back. Mijinion? The guy was itching to terrorize people B-movie style with a giant robot. Scaravich was a thief and Metal Shark Player was power-hungry, maybe not the most threatening of Reploids but by no means saints.
Yammark is kind of a big question mark. His most dominant personality trait is paranoia as a result of his death, so we don't know much about what he was like before then. Only that the forest wound up burned on his watch. Might have been his fault or it might not.
I would consider X6 to be a good example of racism. Alia & X discuss how Gate's creations weren't really dangerous when they were disposed. I can't believe I'm mentioning this before Hypershell.
Mainly X6 doesn't mention that decision as coming from humans any more so than it does Reploids. There's no racist theme to X6, rather the issue there would be paranoia of the ruling class and how far they'll push the moral line to extinguish their fears. How justified those fears were varies with each individual 'roid, as mentioned above.
Even so, some of the Mavericks in X5 didn't really trust the Hunters and their distrust of the Hunters had pretty much been confirmed when they were defeated by X and Zero.
I think most of that is just the need to justify a boss battle while the bosses are still sane.
Honestly, when a falling space colony is threatening to annihilate the Earth, that is not the time to be nit-picking over the appropriate level of force to use against criminals. They're risking the planet for the sake of their own bickering, talk about moronic.
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I don't agree with that statement. Yes, Turtloid and Sheldon were honorable. So was Wolfang. But what about Heatnix? He left his comrads die just because he was stronger than they were and didn't want to be held back. Mijinion? The guy was itching to terrorize people B-movie style with a giant robot. Scaravich was a thief and Metal Shark Player was power-hungry, maybe not the most threatening of Reploids but by no means saints.
Mijinion didn't do that until after he was disposed, & since when is thievery worthy of death? Scaravich was scared to death of X & Zero, because they're like the SS.
Yammark is kind of a big question mark. His most dominant personality trait is paranoia as a result of his death, so we don't know much about what he was like before then. Only that the forest wound up burned on his watch. Might have been his fault or it might not.
I thought the fire was from him crashing.
Mainly X6 doesn't mention that decision as coming from humans any more so than it does Reploids. There's no racist theme to X6, rather the issue there would be paranoia of the ruling class and how far they'll push the moral line to extinguish their fears. How justified those fears were varies with each individual 'roid, as mentioned above.
I think most of that is just the need to justify a boss battle while the bosses are still sane.
Who do you think is in charge at this point? Certainly not Reploids. Their lives are so easily forfeit.
Honestly, when a falling space colony is threatening to annihilate the Earth, that is not the time to be nit-picking over the appropriate level of force to use against criminals. They're risking the planet for the sake of their own bickering, talk about moronic.
X & Zero still took their things by force.
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Scaravich was scared to death of X & Zero, because they're like the SS.
Actually, I recall him wanting to analyze their DNA.
I thought the fire was from him crashing.
He accidentally caused the forest to burn up, so they sabotaged his flying system, causing him to crash.
Who do you think is in charge at this point? Certainly not Reploids. Their lives are so easily forfeit.
except these disposals were carried out by Reploids, enemies of Gate, people who were envious, and scared of his creations.
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Actually, I recall him wanting to analyze their DNA.
X: Ground Scaravich! You must be the burglar of ruins! What are you doing
here?
Ground Scaravich: Well, well, well... What have we here... Why, it's
Officer X. This is horrible! Why do I have to face someone like you here?!
X: Be a smart Reploid and give me the Information on the Nightmares.
Ground Scaravich: I'd rather just see what DNA data you have!
Zero: Ground Scaravich! Why do you need to steal from another ruin? Hmm...
You seem to be very close to the Nightmares...
Ground Scaravich: I am cursed, I know it! You are Zero. I heard you were
dead. I really wanted to obtain your DNA data, but I no longer need it.
Zero: What do you mean?
Ground Scaravich: You can fight me to find out!
I guess he was more afraid of X. Regardless, Maverick Hunters strike fear in Reploids because they are the arm of the law, & you don't get any sort of trial.
He accidentally caused the forest to burn up, so they sabotaged his flying system, causing him to crash.
That's X6's confusing Alia chatter for you.
except these disposals were carried out by Reploids, enemies of Gate, people who were envious, and scared of his creations.
When was that said?
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I guess he was more afraid of X. Regardless, Maverick Hunters strike fear in Reploids because they are the arm of the law, & you don't get any sort of trial.
His "fright" of X never seemed too genuine to me. More of a "what an inconvenience" thing. Especially since he's so bold as to already see himself analyzing X's DNA.
That's X6's confusing Alia chatter for you.
I don't see whats so confusing.
When was that said?
Throughout the whole game, the dialogue implies that Gate's creations were just so advanced that his peers and possibly superiors saw them as potentially dangerous, and thus, plotted to get rid of them. The fact that a few of them were real jerks and didnt follow rules only worsened the matter. Now, in reploid science, we seem to see mostly reploids. Cain seems to be the only human ever shown until Ciel, to be working on reploid engineering. Hell, almost all science seems to be left to reploids, if Xtreme 2's reaserch laboratory on Laguzland seems to imply that there were only reploids there. Plus Berkana herself is a reploid researcher.
Alia and Gate themselves studied together in that field.
Of course, this means nothing, as we simply dont know what humans are doing in the X series, besides being race not appearing in this game since X4.
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His "fright" of X never seemed too genuine to me. More of a "what an inconvenience" thing. Especially since he's so bold as to already see himself analyzing X's DNA.
I thought he was genuine. I like to ignore the last line the Mavericks have because it's never ever logical unless they're douche bags.
I don't see whats so confusing.
Her grammar & pacing.
Throughout the whole game, the dialogue implies that Gate's creations were just so advanced that his peers and possibly superiors saw them as potentially dangerous, and thus, plotted to get rid of them. The fact that a few of them were real jerks and didnt follow rules only worsened the matter. Now, in reploid science, we seem to see mostly reploids. Cain seems to be the only human ever shown until Ciel, to be working on reploid engineering. Hell, almost all science seems to be left to reploids, if Xtreme 2's reaserch laboratory on Laguzland seems to imply that there were only reploids there. Plus Berkana herself is a reploid researcher.
Alia and Gate themselves studied together in that field.
Of course, this means nothing, as we simply dont know what humans are doing in the X series, besides being race not appearing in this game since X4.
Exactly. I would assume those pulling the strings were human, since it's not like Reploids were anywhere near equal to them in 21XX.
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I thought he was genuine. I like to ignore the last line the Mavericks have because it's never ever logical unless they're douche bags.
Then you really cant make a valid argument if your disregarding part of their speech. thats like me disregarding Sigma's speech about knowing Wily, simply because Sigma's a bald evil bastard.
Her grammar & pacing.
maybe its because I have immigrant parents who I have become accustomed to hearing speak somewhat broken english, but I understood her just fine.
Exactly. I would assume those pulling the strings were human, since it's not like Reploids were anywhere near equal to them in 21XX.
How are they not equal? Id like to see what info you can present, VALID info, not speculative, that proves it.
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Then you really cant make a valid argument if your disregarding part of their speech. thats like me disregarding Sigma's speech about knowing Wily, simply because Sigma's a bald evil bastard.
It's just that the "IM GONNA GET YOU MAGGERMANS" line is so often out of character & very much just an excuse to start a boss battle.
How are they not equal? Id like to see what info you can present, VALID info, not speculative, that proves it.
Have you ever seen the term Maverick applied to a human? Human lives are higher priority than reploids'.
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That's because the meaning of the term "Maverick" generally does not apply to humans. Z3 and Z4 are the exceptions as the use of the word changes over time, but it originated as the term for an out-of-control Reploid which threatens humanity; it is not the term for a general criminal. Reploids may deal in theivery, bounty hunting, brutality, or illegal arms trading, and not be considered Maverick.
If any seeming focus is given to humanity in 21XX it is because humans are more fragile and therefore vulnerable to the assaults of Mavericks. Superiority in the world's social structure was never really shown in the X-series, although Mavericks have made that claim, but coming from one who wishes to dispose of humans entirely that doesn't mean a heck of a lot. If anything the incidents with Copy Chips and Force Metal show that humanity is at times negligent of the risks of new Reploid technologies. It was not until the Zero series that prejudice against Reploids was an issue.
In X6, humanity is not mentioned in regards to the disposal of Gate's Reploids. There's nothing racist about that. Alia, a Reploid, disposed of one of them herself. Numerous researchers are Reploids. Numerous commanders of armed forces are Reploids. Gate speaks to the Maverick Hunters, a group of Reploids, expecting that they should dispose of Zero in the same manner as his works. There's no reason it had to be a human who made the call to destroy Gate's Reploids.
maybe its because I have immigrant parents who I have become accustomed to hearing speak somewhat broken english, but I understood her just fine.
Agreed. Although in my case it would probably be the fact that Xtreme2's dialogue is considerably more broken than X6's. But even X5 wasn't all that clean as it had a ton of typos.
Posted on: November 06, 2009, 12:48:30 PM
Mijinion didn't do that until after he was disposed
So? Mijinion does not seek to kill people for vengeance but rather for their perceived ignorance. Which fits entirely with his pre-disposal attitude of ignoring set parameters for weapons testing. He clearly had a superiority complex both before and after his disposal, and afterwards it is taken to a dangerous extreme; that in no way means he was harmless beforehand.
since when is thievery worthy of death?
I never said it was. It is worthy of imprisonment, though, not encouragement as Gate did. I simply said it disproves the statement of them being "not that bad". Whether that warranted death, or whether the method of doing so was appropriate, is a different issue.
Scaravich was scared to death of X & Zero, because they're like the SS.
No thief wants to fight, they want to grab and run. What do you expect?
Besides, he does want their data. Consistent across both encounters, he merely dismisses Zero's as a thing of the past for reasons which are obvious after Gate's Lab 1. Ignoring dialogue that doesn't suit your opinion doesn't make a convincing argument.
X & Zero still took their things by force.
Hardly. Most of them insisted on fighting due to imminent infection; they considered themselves already doomed to a Maverick fate and preferred to fight while still of sound mind. Hell, Squid Adler offered them the Energy Cart freely, regardless of his personal feelings.
Mattrex and Axle The Red are the only two that fall into the category you're describing, and they weren't exactly peace-keepers themselves. One guards a weapon stash and the other is a theif. And both, due to their preconceived notions about the Hunters, were extremely eager to fight them.
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No, I know about Scaravich's dialogue with Zero. I'm just saying, he seemed scared to me about X. But I never thought of it like you put it, him wanting to just grab & run.
I think justification for destruction & methodology are very relevant to robot prejudice. The prejudice might not be perpetrated by humans, but it still stands that Reploids have to be concerned about possibly being labeled Maverick unjustly. It's a double standard.
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it still stands that Reploids have to be concerned about possibly being labeled Maverick unjustly.
That much is true whenever any established agency makes an accusation. And unjust accusations have been touched upon in the X-series as covered above. But prejudice would mean that Reploids are being singled out, and since the term Maverick by definition does not apply to humans, I don't see that to be the case.
In MegaMan Zero, what makes the actions prejudice are not the lack of humans being labeled as Maverick, but rather, that Reploids are being disposed of for no reason other than their energy consumption. Labeling them as Maverick is simply the means to that end.
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it is not the term for a general criminal. Reploids may deal in theivery, bounty hunting, brutality, or illegal arms trading, and not be considered Maverick.
But they are. As you describe later on in your post, there have been hostile Repliroids in the X-Series who could be considered regular criminals instead of world-threatening terrorists, but were still branded Irregulars. While the term may have been used for out-of-control Repliroids at the beginning of the Irregular epidemic, it soon expanded and was used for every criminal Repliroid. I believe X7's opening directly states that all criminal Repliroids are known as "Irregulars", not just the world-destroying ones like Sigma.
The issue here is, even though one perhaps might simply blame it on game mechanics, that Irregulars are always terminated. Even if they are just thieves like Ground Scaravich or arms traders like Crescent Grizzly, they are always destroyed instead of incapacitated and locked away. Like X later would say in Z1, "terminate with extreme prejudice". If X was so against fighting and killing, why not simply capture?
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X7 says no such thing. It simply refers to "crimes perpetrated by Mavericks". Mavericks are criminals. Criminals are not necessarily Mavericks.
As far as the capturing thing goes, they did that once: Vile.
Capturing one intent on fighting to the death, and armed to do so, is no easy task. A Reploid built for combat would be tough to disable without killing, given that they often carry weapons linked to their body. It's not like getting a person to drop a gun. If luck's with you maybe you could blow its limbs off, but game mechanics dictate that at three limbs the rest of the body explodes if you're not fighting a playable character.
As for X, Copy X swayed a lot of good people into supporting prejudiced mass murder. I don't think the death penalty is at all extreme at that point. X dislikes fighting and killing, but even he has his limits about how much he'll tolerate. You never see him hesitate in the face of Sigma after X1, do you?
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Mavericks are criminals. Criminals are not necessarily Mavericks.
I'm refering to Repliroid Criminals, not to criminals in general.
As far as the capturing thing goes, they did that once: Vile.
I believe the only reason they decided to capture VAVA was because it was still in the beginning stages of Irregular insurrections. Also, during the period of X1/IHX, most Irregulars were crazed Repliroids infected with viruses or had faulty circuitry. VAVA was a member of the Hunters' elite squad, so surely they wanted to know what had happened to him. Also he did not act like an Irregular per se, since he was not virally infected and did not shoot everything in sight, despite causing enormous collateral damage. Actually, he wasn't necessarily apprehended due to Irregular activity, but merely for defying orders and wrecking havoc at the scene if I'm not mistaken.
Capturing one intent on fighting to the death, and armed to do so, is no easy task. A Reploid built for combat would be tough to disable without killing, given that they often carry weapons linked to their body. It's not like getting a person to drop a gun. If luck's with you maybe you could blow its limbs off, but game mechanics dictate that at three limbs the rest of the body explodes if you're not fighting a playable character.
Like I said, it could merely be blamed on game mechanics, but technically it would still be possible, especially because X is whining about not wanting to fight others a lot yet completely annihilates them anyway. Interestingly, he pretty much abandonned that way of thinking in transit from X7 to X8 and Command Mission. Especially the Command Mission X always seemed to be more of the "shoot first, ask questions later" kind, at least to me.
You never see him hesitate in the face of Sigma after X1, do you?
Because Sigma is the Irregular Numbero Uno. X knows he can't enter into diplomatic negotiations him in order to prevent Sigma from dropping another freaking colony on Earth. Destruction of Sigma is necessary to help the world at least a bit in the direction of peace. As long as Sigma is around, the world is destined to be engulfed by war and destruction. Not to mention that Sigma deceived and betrayed him and the other Hunters.
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Actually, he wasn't necessarily apprehended due to Irregular activity, but merely for defying orders and wrecking havoc at the scene if I'm not mistaken.
Which could easily be a criminal act, by your own argument making him Maverick. Sigma certainly sees such potential, at least. Zero also described him as borderline Maverick, and we all know he's not exactly the model of restraint.
Like I said, it could merely be blamed on game mechanics
Which really is logic enough since MegaMan is first and foremost a video game. But for what it's worth the giant mechaniloid in MHX did not explode, and the Hunters did use weapons aimed at restraint. Didn't seem too effective.
Interestingly, he pretty much abandonned that way of thinking in transit from X7 to X8 and Command Mission. Especially the Command Mission X always seemed to be more of the "shoot first, ask questions later" kind, at least to me.
In X8 he's still holding to it pretty strong. If anything he strikes me as a bit gullible in how easily he was swayed by Lumine.
In Command Mission X does seem more all-business, but then it is a good deal in the future. He doesn't hesitate as much as usual. Still, I didn't see him as lacking compassion. He does question Scarface and Epsilon as to their motives, trying to understand what's going on in their heads. And of course he takes in numerous allies regardless of questionable background (Spider and Marino in particular). If he is more aggressive it may be due to Shadow's betrayal and watching Zero get shot off a cliff. Plus the handiwork of Jango, Silverhorn, and Psyche don't exactly present Rebellion in a good light either. As I mentioned earlier there is only so much that X will overlook. Sigma's the most obvious example but it's not just him. When X sees a great deal of death and suffering his doubts tend to get cast aside (one would think that is only natural; as the stakes rise decisive action becomes more important). X4's Sky Lagoon crash is another such example.
Because Sigma is the Irregular Numbero Uno. X knows he can't enter into diplomatic negotiations him in order to prevent Sigma from dropping another freaking colony on Earth. Destruction of Sigma is necessary to help the world at least a bit in the direction of peace. As long as Sigma is around, the world is destined to be engulfed by war and destruction. Not to mention that Sigma deceived and betrayed him and the other Hunters.
Exactly. My point is, how is Sigma less evil than Copy X? At least when Sigma sways others he's usually forced to override their will. Copy X is even more dangerous because he actually swayed heroes and the general public to not only condone but partake in the suffering and murder of innocents. Nevermind the fact that he does so in X's name. How is X supposed to let that slide?
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But they are. As you describe later on in your post, there have been hostile Repliroids in the X-Series who could be considered regular criminals instead of world-threatening terrorists, but were still branded Irregulars. While the term may have been used for out-of-control Repliroids at the beginning of the Irregular epidemic, it soon expanded and was used for every criminal Repliroid. I believe X7's opening directly states that all criminal Repliroids are known as "Irregulars", not just the world-destroying ones like Sigma.
Marino is a criminal, a thief, but she is not an Irregular. That alone shoots down that notion.
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Which could easily be a criminal act, by your own argument making him Maverick.
What I'm trying to say is, originally Irregulars were Repliroids and Mechaniroids who acted completely insane. VAVA was technically not completely nuts yet. He completely was doing incomprehensible stuff. He enjoyed blowing crap up. And he was part of the 17th Unit, Sigma's unit. Wouldn't be too good for the reputation of the Ace Hunters if one of them turned Irregular, now would it? So finding out what's wrong with him would become a priority, in case his behavior might have been caused by a virus that could easily affect other Hunters. Better to research it than to terminate a possible cure to a possible infection.
As time went on, Repliroids who did criminal things while being unaffected by the Irregular / Sigma Virus showed up. Arms dealing, robberies, whatever floats your boat. During that time perioid, the Irregular term was being expanded. That's at least how I see it. We all agree that it was originally just a definition of Repliroids running riot, but as time went by, Repliroids, having free will and all, could do evil things completely on their own, starting the whole dilemma with X' circuitry and what not. I honestly don't see why Lumine's "revelation" was so ground-breaking.
By my own personal definition of Irregular, I would already categorize Marino as one, but that does not mean I would demand that X shot her on the spot. What I'm trying to get across is, I believe that there would have been quite a few people in the Hunters, in the government and in the general public who would have demanded that he would. Surely theft is less dramatic than threatening to annihilate mankind, but it's still a crime and major offense and people are getting more and more paranoid as the Irregular Wars drag on, with the humans being completely utterly dependend on Repliroids fighting other Repliroids to save their skins.
In Command Mission X does seem more all-business, but then it is a good deal in the future. He doesn't hesitate as much as usual. Still, I didn't see him as lacking compassion. He does question Scarface and Epsilon as to their motives, trying to understand what's going on in their heads.
I might just be the stoicness of the cutscenes because there was so little movement (or facial expressions for that matter) in them, but X always seemed to me like he was getting tired of reasoning with his enemies. Sure, he questions Epsilon and his buddies as to why they rebel and all, but still, I never got the impression that X was trying to think of a third way to end the conflict other than blowing up his opponents or expecting them to miraculously surrender and hold hands. "You don't want to talk? Fine, let's have it your way."
I've been getting the impression that by the time of Command Mission, X somewhat subdued his sub-conciousness due to the onwaging Irregular Wars and tried to believe in society and the system behind it; the hierachy of the Hunter command structure. His superior told him Liberion/the Rebellion was a threat to all mankind, so he carried out his orders and put a stop to them.
And besides, and again, just by my own impression, I never had the feeling that X, even when he questioned Epsilon, Scarface and the others of the Cadre, would have not killed them or at least taken them into custody.
Exactly. My point is, how is Sigma less evil than Copy X?
Have I ever questioned Copy X' alignment? The thing with Copy-X is that he believes he is automatically right because he's the perfect copy of the legendary hero Rockman X who saved mankind a century ago. He's got that massive reputation behind him which boosts his ego to unknown ends of foolishness.
How is X supposed to let that slide?
Thing is, the real X didn't bother to confront his copy until Z3. During the events of Z1 and before, with his body still intact and thus a remaining link to the physical world and resting place which wouldn't cause him to wither away into Cyberspace, he could have easily done something. Try to reason his copy, or the Shitennou for that matter. But no, he chose to remain asleep and handed the job over to Zero while the house was burning down.
Marino is a criminal, a thief, but she is not an Irregular. That alone shoots down that notion.
She is wanted for the crimes she's committed. The thing is, Gigantis was being threatened by Epsilon, so X overlooked her rather minor criminal background and took her into the party. We don't know what happened to her after Command Mission, she might have just vanished in order to escape custody and X chose to overlook it since she helped him.
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I've been getting the impression that by the time of Command Mission, X somewhat subdued his sub-conciousness due to the onwaging Irregular Wars and tried to believe in society and the system behind it; the hierachy of the Hunter command structure. His superior told him Liberion/the Rebellion was a threat to all mankind, so he carried out his orders and put a stop to them.
He's been hanging out with Zero too much, I think.
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As time went on, Repliroids who did criminal things while being unaffected by the Irregular / Sigma Virus showed up. Arms dealing, robberies, whatever floats your boat. During that time perioid, the Irregular term was being expanded. That's at least how I see it. We all agree that it was originally just a definition of Repliroids running riot, but as time went by, Repliroids, having free will and all, could do evil things completely on their own, starting the whole dilemma with X' circuitry and what not. I honestly don't see why Lumine's "revelation" was so ground-breaking.
Except that at no point within the series is the term Maverick applied in the manner you're suggesting.
In fact X5 speaks rather directly against it, since Zero is on the whole "destroy Mavericks" boat and yet is willing to let illegal arms traders walk away. Grizzly Slash in fact has run into him in the past, and it was evidently ugly, but he lived. Maverick Hunters are figures of authority and thus I'm certain them acting as law enforcement when the need arises is not unusual, but that is not their primary duty.
Command Mission also speaks against this. Epsilon's actions were criminal, there's no doubt there. He and his men seized Giga City, imprisoned its people, banished humans, blew up Lagrano, attempted to do the same to Central Tower, manufactured weapons, and tried to irradiate the planet. So why is his Maverick status considered at all questionable? There was nothing legal about Epsilon, but whether he was Maverick or not was a messy issue that the authorities didn't want to touch.
Lumine's speaking of "going Maverick at will" also refers to rebelling against humanity and not robbing the repli-Kwik-E-Mart. Although I agree it's an odd thing to brag about considering that Sigma and Vile did it. However, X8 also delves into the definition of Maverick earlier with Dark Mantis. There is a misconception that Mavericks exist only or near only from viral infection and other such errors. As Mantis put it, "How can you accuse us of being something that we cannot be?" If any free willed crime qualified as Maverick behavior, that argument would be completely invalid.
Incidentally such an attitude probably explains why Mavericks are generally destroyed. They're regarded as infections/malfunctions and rehabilitating them is not an option. No Reploid has ever been cured of a Sigma Virus infection; Marino's still looking for one according to pre-release notes in XCM. A criminal of sound mind is an entirely different story.
And besides, and again, just by my own impression, I never had the feeling that X, even when he questioned Epsilon, Scarface and the others of the Cadre, would have not killed them or at least taken them into custody.
Isn't half the point of your discussion that there is considerable difference between the two?
Thing is, the real X didn't bother to confront his copy until Z3.
MKII =/= MKI. Copy X MKII was a tool of Weil. Perhaps that earned him some sympathy.
As for why X didn't appear to the Big Four, who knows? Seamless backstory isn't really Inticreates' forte.
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Command Mission also speaks against this. Epsilon's actions were criminal, there's no doubt there. He and his men seized Giga City, imprisoned its people, banished humans, blew up Lagrano, attempted to do the same to Central Tower, manufactured weapons, and tried to irradiate the planet. So why is his Maverick status considered at all questionable? There was nothing legal about Epsilon, but whether he was Maverick or not was a messy issue that the authorities didn't want to touch.
you have JUST done it. Ive always been trying to put my finger on the whole deal with why I beleive Epsilon to not be a maverick, and the whole situation behind it regardless of his actions, and youve just nailed it. Bravo.
MKII =/= MKI. Copy X MKII was a tool of Weil. Perhaps that earned him some sympathy.
since Z3, ive felt sorry for Copy X. including MKl, simply because of his terribly misguided nature. If he was brought up around the right people, and not had the pressure dropped on his shoulders like he was Atlas trying to hold up the earth, He might not have turned out so bad.
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There was nothing legal about Epsilon, but whether he was Maverick or not was a messy issue that the authorities didn't want to touch.
I believe the reason why they removed the Irregular status of Epsilon and the others because Redips was involved in the whole affair and manipulated the Liberion/Rebellion members, the Irregular Hunters and the Gigantis Resistance into playing into his hands. Perhaps they thought that Redips had orchestrated everything with Epsilon, therefore sort of labeling Epsilon a "victim" of circumstances. Originally Epsilon was supposed to be the big bad guy, but everything he did benefitted Redips, especially refinement of Force Metal and Supra Force Metal.
Lumine's speaking of "going Maverick at will" also refers to rebelling against humanity and not robbing the repli-Kwik-E-Mart.
I see the point, but still. Since a Repliroid has free will from the get-go, they could come up with the thought at any second, just like a human could decide to rebel against society. I also don't think there was just Sigma in terms of Irregular groups rebelling against humanity, Sigma was merely the biggest threat.
As Mantis put it, "How can you accuse us of being something that we cannot be?" If any free willed crime qualified as Maverick behavior, that argument would be completely invalid.
And I think this is one of the possible points in the history of the X series when the term Irregular was expanded. By original definition, none of the NewGens can be Irregulars. They are immune to viruses, Sigma can't twist them. Yet they still decide to rebel. Technically any Repliroid could make this decision.
MKII =/= MKI. Copy X MKII was a tool of Weil. Perhaps that earned him some sympathy.
The version doesn't really matter. Sure, MKII was nothing but a puppet ruler of Neo Arcadia, being manipulated and twisted by Vile under the guise of good will and gratitude for bringing him back etc, but I still don't understand why the real X didn't bother taking action until then. X might have prevented everything, could have saved countless lives of innocent, misjudged Repliroids, but he chose not to. Did he think appearing before him and talking to his copy would not have changed something? Was he incapable of doing something? Or was he unwilling to do something? As a Cyberelf, X has amassed so much wisdom and power, there must have been something that COULD have been done. What if Ciel never found Zero? What if Ciel and all of her comrades died while looking for Zero? Would he still have stood by, watching? Is he so tired of war that he simply turned his back on those in danger?
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I think I'm somewhat losing myself in this because I can hardly explain what I was trying to get at anymore.
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Oh, and one thing I forgot. About Marino, remember Zero's storm-off?
"They're the dregs of Giga City."
"The 'roids here could go Maverick at any time."
By your logic Marino and Spider are already confirmed Maverick, and this dialogue makes absolutely no sense.
I believe the reason why they removed the Irregular status of Epsilon and the others because Redips was involved in the whole affair and manipulated the Liberion/Rebellion members, the Irregular Hunters and the Gigantis Resistance into playing into his hands.
I beg to differ. Redips did not manipulate Rebellion. He was manipulating the Hunters specifically because of his lack of pull in the Rebellion. "You know how well Epsilon hides things. So, I took advantage of your top-notch abilities as Maverick Hunters." Epsilon's actions were his own.
I also remind you, as I've already pointed out earlier, that "deferred" does not mean "not Maverick." It means the judgment was delayed indefinitely; the higher-ups didn't want to touch the issue one way or the other. If Maverick status were only a matter of criminal behavior, there really should not be any reason for such indecisiveness.
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Fine, I yield.
I can't get this right anymore.