RockmanPM Forums
Other Things => Gaming => Topic started by: Phi on December 01, 2009, 11:49:31 PM
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... coming soon to NDS (http://kotaku.com/5416272/sega-spins-sonic-classic-collection-to-nintendo-ds)
The engineers at Sega have discovered an all-new way to repackage the Sonic the Hedgehog titles that you know and may still love in the just-announced Sonic Classic Collection for Nintendo DS.
Sega will squeeze 16-bit platforming adventure classics Sonic The Hedgehog, Sonic The Hedgehog 2, Sonic The Hedgehog 3 and Sonic & Knuckles onto a DS card and ship it to retail March 2010. The Nintendo DS collection will also feature a handy save anywhere feature, the kind of save state options that emulators have offered for years. Or so I've heard from friends.
Also included will be "a wealth of extras including video and collectable pictures," according to the official Sega Europe blog.
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[tornado fang] YEAH! [parasitic bomb] I ALREADY KNEW ABOUT!
Except for the date, that's new. >_>
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Ergh, [tornado fang]ing Sonic 2... S3&K, Woot! I like the Save Anywhere Idea, good for Sonic 2's Ass Special Stages.
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Save Anywhere Idea good for Sonic 2's Ass Special Stages.
...wow.
You must suck.
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[tornado fang] YEAH! [parasitic bomb] I ALREADY KNEW ABOUT!
Ok, how many ports of Sonic 1 as of right now?
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...wow.
You must suck.
Yeah, I do. I'm okay at the stages themselves (Except for that last one). Its just keeping enough rings to get a lot of emeralds in Emerald Hill is pure hell thanks to those damn monkeys who somehow always hit me even when they aren't attacking. :\
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Protip: Don't run into enemies.
Or well, jump off of a spring into one.
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YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Wait...is "Sonic 3 and Knuckles" going to be on this?
...oh well, hey, portable Sonic.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
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Sonic games are really the only games I'm good at. I don't think I really ever get hit by enemies. Also, Sonic 2's Special Stages are extremely easy. Sonic and Knuckles' Special Stages were hell, though. Sonic 3 used the same kind, of course, but they're easy in comparison.
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I'm better with the 3d games apparently, that, or I need to hold the attention span to practice at those games.
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I'm better with the 3d games apparently, that, or I need to hold the attention span to practice at those games.
When I was a kid, I had a lot of free time--not that, that's changed. >U<
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Sonic games are really the only games I'm good at. I don't think I really ever get hit by enemies. Also, Sonic 2's Special Stages are extremely easy. Sonic and Knuckles' Special Stages were hell, though. Sonic 3 used the same kind, of course, but they're easy in comparison.
S1-K's Special Stages can all be memorized.
So in some regard, they'll all be easy. It's the timing that'll whack ya (like Sonic 2's and S&K's last emeralds).
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S1-K's Special Stages can all be memorized.
So in some regard, they'll all be easy. It's the timing that'll whack ya (like Sonic 2's and S&K's last emeralds).
Yeah, but try playing them on a black and white TV, like I had to when I was a kid. I trained myself to notice the subtle difference in tone between the red and blue spheres. :\
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Never had a problem with S&K's emeralds. Getting perfects on those is a bit tricky, though. I found the timing for some of Sonic 2's more difficult. Stage 6 especially.
But yeah, this is like the 30th platform to carry Sonic 1. I'm sure the majority of people already own these games on another platform, or emulate on a portable. I would take the "save state" thing with a grain of salt. I imagine it acting more like what the Virtual Console does. Hell, I'm iffy of this collection in general. Memories of Sonic on the GBA are rearing their ugly head.
And if there's no S3K, it's worthless.
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Is this the first good portable Sonic Collection?
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Actually, it looks like it's the first portable Sonic collection, period.
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Well, that's a plus!
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Actually, it looks like it's the first portable Sonic collection, period.
Well, without the GG titles involved (hopefully).
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This sounds interesting. I may not be that enthusiastic about Sonic, but I just might look for it when it hits store shelves.
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Well, as Sato said, S3&K or bust...
BTW, what's the deal with this screenshot?
(http://dsmedia.ign.com/ds/image/article/105/1050810/sonic-classic-collection-20091201013449678.jpg)
Somebody dig out an old S&K pre-release? Because as nice as it would be to chomp at the bit over a new gameplay feature such as a Sonic/Knuckles tag team, that definitely doesn't look like the DS screen resolution.
Well, for one shining moment before that fact sank in, it was exciting.
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http://sonicstadium.org/news/sega-europe-officially-unveils-sonic-classic-collection
I lol'd at the box art for some reason. >_>;
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Wait, no S3&K then?
I really hope i'm wrong.
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It's looking to be an unlockable.
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It's looking to be an unlockable.
I can't imagine it not being that!
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No Sonic CD? What inane excuse could they use THIS time? 8D ... -AC
Honestly, I'm sorry, but the allure of playing the same Sonic games I loved, only on the DS this time? It's not happening.
And frankly, after the travesty that was the Sonic 1 GBA port, I'm not even sure if I trust Sega that much with doing a port of this type.
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Protip: Don't run into enemies.
Or well, jump off of a spring into one.
I jump at it normally and kill it, As soon as it dies then a random coconut hits me and there go all my rings.
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It's looking to be an unlockable.
It wasn't in the PS360 collection. I'm willing to bet Sega will make the same mistake.
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I think it was confirmed already via the BBFC rating of the game. Knuckles in Sonic 2 is also in.
http://www.bbfc.co.uk/website/Classified.nsf/e8ea0df3a881175480256d58003cb570/e071fc27bafa43468025766b0043334a?OpenDocument
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I think it was confirmed already via the BBFC rating of the game. Knuckles in Sonic 2 is also in.
http://www.bbfc.co.uk/website/Classified.nsf/e8ea0df3a881175480256d58003cb570/e071fc27bafa43468025766b0043334a?OpenDocument
Well, that's good then!
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I think I might pick this up if I get all of those games~ <3
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So its like the PS2/GC game collection- Minus the other sonic games. just 1-S&K.
Im not sure what to think really. :\
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So its like the PS2/GC game collection- Minus the other sonic games. just 1-S&K.
Im not sure what to think really. :\
Except it's mobile. MOBILE!! Big difference.
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I'm not a fan of playing games on the go, so that's one more strike against the game for me. You know, besides the fact I already have Mega Collection.
It's good to see it has both lockon games, though. Sega isn't completely stupid.
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n/a KNUCKLES IN SONIC THE HEDGEHOG 2 (GAME)
n/a KNUCKLES IN SONIC THE HEDGEHOG 3 (GAME)
Provided this isn't a retool like Sonic Genesis, SOLD!
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lawl
I can't believe you people eat this [parasitic bomb] up.
How many "SUPER OMEGA SPECIAL COLLECTIONS" there was already? Buy one of the previous ones, and don't bother with the others.
Also, you can play the [tornado fang]ing games on a emu. On DS, PSP and PC.
So, why bother?
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See, he gets it.
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I'm happy with the Mega Collection, Gems Collection and the VC games. ^^
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lawl
I can't believe you people eat this [parasitic bomb] up.
How many "SUPER OMEGA SPECIAL COLLECTIONS" there was already? Buy one of the previous ones, and don't bother with the others.
Also, you can play the [tornado fang]ing games on a emu. On DS, PSP and PC.
So, why bother?
Because I like my DS, would like to play these on a portable, and don't have much space on my flashcart?
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Because I like my DS, would like to play these on a portable, and don't have much space on my flashcart?
You people are hopeless.
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Here's a thought: don't like it, shut up. Seriously, you're just making yourselves look like dicks, unless that was your goal. If it was, you're doing an amazing job. Keep it up!
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Because I like my DS, would like to play these on a portable, and don't have much space on my flashcart?
That's my line of reasoning.
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I have Sonic Jam sitting in my Saturn.
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I'm good with Gems and Mega Collection, but I personally would like a "SONIC PERFECT COLLECTION". With every single (Classic) game, Lock-on, and the ability to play the Master System Versions of the Game Gear games, also the ability to play S3D's Saturn Version. Probably would end up either on the 360 or PS3, or if we're lucky, the Wii.
But thats just the Sonic Fan in me talking. '>.>
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Well I want the Sonic Xtreme we never got. :P
the teasers posted on youtube by that guy who used to work for Sega are so tantalizing...
and yet so un obtainable... :C
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Sonic Xtreme sounded like a good concept, but for Sega, it was too good a concept.
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I'm happy with the Mega Collection, Gems Collection and the VC games. ^^
I am too, except not being able to take my VC on the go with my DSi.
Which is pretty much the reason I bought it. >_>
But, hey, between this and Super Mario All-Stars DS (if we get it), I'm fine. Also, Shantae.
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Also, you can play the [tornado fang]ing games on a emu. On DS, PSP and PC.
So, why bother?
We'll focus on DS, since it's the relevant one here.
DS Genesis emulators currently suck. They utterly butcher the original display ratio of a Genesis game because the DS screens are much smaller. Now, by all means it's too soon to say if this game will change the display or if the emulation will even be good. Now, all signs show that they're retooling the games to keep them as close to the original titles on the DS' resolution, but Sega's got a questionable track record with emulation.
At the same time, this could be used in the same way Sega Classic Collection on PSP was used to make Pico Drive, one of the best Genesis emulators on the PSP.
I'm not thrilled about this, more so since I have these titles on Pico Drive PSP, but not everyone may subscribe to pirating with the flavor of the month card or have a PSP modded to run Pico Drive, so this isn't a bad move at all, especially making them portable.
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While a port for the DS would be good, I just don't play my DS enough to warrant getting it. Espiecially since I have the Mega collection already for my PS2.
Still, those who're moving around more would appreciate it.
Although speaking of Mega collection, is playing as Knuckles for 2 and 3 even available? O.o I don't have much of anything on it unlocked.
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Although speaking of Mega collection, is playing as Knuckles for 2 and 3 even available? O.o I don't have much of anything on it unlocked.
Um yea, you have to load each of the existing games maximum 50 times (it will auto-save each time).
When you're done, you unlock a new game or lock-on feature (you will get a message). ^^
In the long run, it's worth it, if you have the time and patience to sit down and do this. >v<
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Um yea, you have to load each of the existing games maximum 50 times (it will auto-save each time).
When you're done, you unlock a new game or lock-on feature (you will get a message). ^^
In the long run, it's worth it, if you have the time and patience to sit down and do this. >v<
Thanks, although I lack on the time or will to do so. I enjoy the Sonic games but they don't get me to sitting down for hours like Ecco does. I guess maybe in the next several years it'll be unlocked. XD
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If I knew my way around a PSP, or knew someone who knew their way around a PSP, I'd have gone for that option.
But I think I'm still going to wait for the PSP2, anyway. That sucker will be able to display all sorts of games!
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Thanks, although I lack on the time or will to do so. I enjoy the Sonic games but they don't get me to sitting down for hours like Ecco does. I guess maybe in the next several years it'll be unlocked. XD
You just have to load any of the games and then exit right after the auto-save shows up, and keep doing this until its done.
I think the number to do it for each game was between 20 and 30, but not higher than 50.
If you wanna do it the fast way, here's the games you want. ^^
Knuckles in Sonic 2: Load "Sonic the Hedgehog 2" & "Sonic Spinball" 20 times each.
Sonic 3 & Knuckles: Load "Sonic the Hedgehog 3" & "Sonic & Knuckles" 20 times each.
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You just have to load any of the games and then exit right after the auto-save shows up, and keep doing this until its done.
I think the number to do it for each game was between 20 and 30, but not higher than 50.
If you wanna do it the fast way, here's the games you want. ^^
Knuckles in Sonic 2: Load "Sonic the Hedgehog 2" & "Sonic Spinball" 20 times each.
Sonic 3 & Knuckles: Load "Sonic the Hedgehog 3" & "Sonic & Knuckles" 20 times each.
Couldn't you get Ristar by playing every game 30 times or something like that? I never did get around to that. :P
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Well, there is a clear-game option for that (Beat sonic 3? can't remember). Managed to unlock Ristar at least once. :\
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I do kinda wish that among all of these re-releases they'd have included Knuckles Chaotix somewhere. Couldn't believe that one wasn't in Gems Collection.
DS Genesis emulators currently suck. They utterly butcher the original display ratio of a Genesis game because the DS screens are much smaller.
Get equipped with:
jEnesisDS (http://boards.pocketheaven.com/viewtopic.php?t=6563&start=0)
Great speed, sound, savestates, the option to DISABLE SCALING, and the ability to scroll the DS screen to any position you prefer. It's about all you can ask for with the DS's smaller screen size.
With one unfortunate exception: Filesize. It does not support games over 3MB, so no S3&K that way. So, for S3&K on your DS, Classics Collection is the best hope thus far (assuming Sega doesn't botch it up).
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Sonic Xtreme sounded like a good concept, but for Sega, it was too good a concept.
PLUS, it was Sega of America, which was at the time, not on good terms with Sega of Japan.
Whatsis name went to check the progress, (after numerous missed deadlines and actually locking the developers in the studio) and some idiot showed him the wrong video,(they showed him an older one, not the newer one) causing him to get really upset and leave.
Eventually, Sonic Xtreme became Sonic 3D blast.
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With one unfortunate exception: Filesize. It does not support games over 3MB, so no S3&K that way.
Awwww, that's too bad... sad to see that it's 4MB. >U<
It works great with Pico Drive PSP tho~
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I do kinda wish that among all of these re-releases they'd have included Knuckles Chaotix somewhere. Couldn't believe that one wasn't in Gems Collection.
Get equipped with:
jEnesisDS (http://boards.pocketheaven.com/viewtopic.php?t=6563&start=0)
Great speed, sound, savestates, the option to DISABLE SCALING, and the ability to scroll the DS screen to any position you prefer. It's about all you can ask for with the DS's smaller screen size.
With one unfortunate exception: Filesize. It does not support games over 3MB, so no S3&K that way. So, for S3&K on your DS, Classics Collection is the best hope thus far (assuming Sega doesn't botch it up).
Assuming that, jEnesiDS' developer may be able to find a way to over come that limitation if the emulator used in the game, assuming it does (and it may likely), is hacked apart and decompiled.
In the proper hands, these collections can only mean good things, though I do wish Sega would kind of back off on porting the classics so much, even if it is pretty much an easy-money ploy for them.
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It's better than putting out new [parasitic bomb].
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By making the classics [parasitic bomb].
Sonic 1 GBA.
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How bout they stop repackaging, and make Sonic 4 already.
THEN they can make it for the DS.
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How bout they stop repackaging, and make Sonic 4 already.
THEN they can make it for the DS.
Aren't they working on Sonic 4?
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Not nessecarily. they said it was a new Sonic game in classic style or something, but you can never keep hopes too high with Sega.
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By making the classics [parasitic bomb].
Sonic 1 GBA.
Point taken. It's better to have something shitty in the first place than to turn something into [parasitic bomb].
How bout they stop repackaging, and make Sonic 4 already.
THEN they can make it for the DS.
Sonic Advance?
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Not nessecarily. they said it was a new Sonic game in classic style or something, but you can never keep hopes too high with Sega.
Eh, it's only Sega within certain arenas. ^_^
I mean, the Ryu ga Gotoku (Yakuza) series? Valkyria Chronicles? Various levels of Arcade development (like Border Break)? That's all gravy.
It's when Sonic gets involved, that something usually goes wrong. Too bad that's usually the big example that's cause for people to paint with a broad brush...
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Eh, it's only Sega within certain arenas. ^_^
I mean, the Ryu ga Gotoku (Yakuza) series? Valkyria Chronicles? Various levels of Arcade development (like Border Break)? That's all gravy.
It's when Sonic gets involved, that something usually goes wrong. Too bad that's usually the big example that's cause for people to paint with a broad brush...
So it's saying Sega can't handle thier own mascot like they used to?
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So it's saying Sega can't handle thier own mascot like they used to?
Evidently not.
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Well, there is a clear-game option for that (Beat sonic 3? can't remember). Managed to unlock Ristar at least once. :\
"Play Blue Sphere, Knuckles in Sonic 2, Sonic 3 and Knuckles, and Flicky 30 times each"
Sometimes I really hate Sega...
I do kinda wish that among all of these re-releases they'd have included Knuckles Chaotix somewhere. Couldn't believe that one wasn't in Gems Collection.
That game was pretty much begging to be in, particularly b/c there was unlockable content from the game and everything. The collection was still pretty solid, though, and both Vectorman games are always nice to have. For what it counts, Sega's actually pretty nice at making collections, much better than Capcom anyway.
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Sega's actually pretty nice at making collections, much better than Capcom anyway.
Yet we still buy them.
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It depends, MMAC was pretty horrible on one hand, and I'd have honestly preferred a straight port of Complete Works over that. On the other hand, Capcom's pretty good with their Street Fighter Collections, and X Collection wasn't too bad, although it still felt a little rushed.
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Well, I wouldn't know, since I haven't played them, I'm planning on it though.
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It depends, MMAC was pretty horrible on one hand and X Collection wasn't too bad
Lol, what?
Anniversary collection was great, and it had both power battles games. one version also had a Megaman episode, while the other had an Inafune interview. The bonus music tracks were catchy too. and I really hadnt seen some of that Concept art.
Plus it had the little walking megaman game select, which was a fun touch.
now X collection...
first off, the game select music is in a set order, as no matter what you do, the first track on the list is X6's stage select, the bonuses are bad, seriously, I have the PS2 version, I really dont need to get arranged X3 music as a bonus when I already hear it in game. The hints are hints you can find ANYWHERE, the artwork once gain, was a nice touch, I hadnt seen all of it, but it isnt enough to redeem it. The game select was also pretty overly simplistic. Especially coming out of Anniversary collection, one expects more. Battle and Chase was cool, but they included the cut EU version, rather than localizing the original game, and they re-used part of X8's Capcom logo. It would have been perfectly fine without that part.
The title screen was pretty unnecessary as well, and while It was nice they made saving optional this time, i cant see why they had to replace the save menus on X4-6, which had its own.
and the last thing, select+start to return to the game select? that was a terrible combination. would it have killed them to make a little pop up menu like AC? Many a time did I accidentally press them both while in a stage. (especially since on the turbo controller I have, theyre closer together than on the regular one.
Oh dear- I went off on a tangent.
To try and get back on topic...
Im not too keen on this collection. Ill look over the box when it comes out, but most likely wont buy it.
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How bout they stop repackaging, and make Sonic 4 already.
THEN they can make it for the DS.
Sonic Advance?
Sonic Rush?
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How bout they stop repackaging, and make Sonic 4 already.
Sonic Advance?
Sonic Rush?
Sonic Pinball Party? 8D
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Sonic Pinball Party? 8D
Sonic the talking ball, dude! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFFNoZWfT0I)
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select+start to return to the game select? that was a terrible combination.
That's standard fare for returning to the title screen. Tons of games use that, including all three PS1 X games.
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That's standard fare for returning to the title screen. Tons of games use that, including all three PS1 X games.
No they didnt. It was press select at the pause menu, and it asks you if you want to return to the title screen.
X collection all you have to do is press both buttons simultaneously.
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So, okay. It looks like DS' Genesis emus do not work like they should exactly. I lose one point.
Still, if you ALREADY OWN one of those collections, then there's really no point in buying this one. srsly.
Besides, Sega(Or should I say SONIC TEAM?) might [tornado fang] it up. After all, you guys do seem to remember the last handheld port.
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No they didnt. It was press select at the pause menu, and it asks you if you want to return to the title screen.
X collection all you have to do is press both buttons simultaneously.
My bad. But still, other games do still use that.
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Never said they didnt. but not many, if ANY, use the start + select simultaneously combo.
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There is the issue of, since X4-6 already use "Start, Select" for returning to the in-game title screen, that combination cannot be used for returning to the game selection screen. For compilations of older games there's usually a dedicated button to open a menu for that, but in XC, all the buttons are pretty much taken.
Aren't they working on Sonic 4?
We're never going to get any closer to STH4 than Rush. Not until Sega learns to grant super forms in stages again. And they've been off that train so long that I don't have much hope of them ever returning. Without it, any talk of "back to Sonic's roots" is meaningless.
It's when Sonic gets involved, that something usually goes wrong. Too bad that's usually the big example that's cause for people to paint with a broad brush...
I would say more accurately Sonic Team. Remember NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams?
I recall an old developer rant, taken down because it allegedly spoiled Unleashed before it was even announced, about how Sonic Team has been reduced to a rushed yearly cash-cowing house with no passion left for what they're doing. I don't think that's too far from the truth. Many times they land a solid concept. But either because they have a deadline or because they just don't care, their projects virtually never get the fine-tuning in gameplay that they need.
Lol, what?
I think he's referring less to actual content and more to emulation quality. MMAC used the PS1 ports of the NES games and yet chose to strip out the vast majority of their extras. There is only one MM8 save slot, one of the visuals in MM7's ending was removed, MM8 suffers audio sample rate issues, and music often does not loop properly (Bass's ending, MM2PF, WHY?!!!).
Granted, XC repeated some music issues on the first two games, but they weren't nearly as bad.
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We're never going to get any closer to STH4 than Rush. Not until Sega learns to grant super forms in stages again. And they've been off that train so long that I don't have much hope of them ever returning. Without it, any talk of "back to Sonic's roots" is meaningless.
I merely meant that "old-school" Sonic game that's supposedly in development. Otherwise, I agree with ye.
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http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?product_id=76629
Don't know if I should pre-order. D:
...I probably [tornado fang]ing will anyway. >_>
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So, okay. It looks like DS' Genesis emus do not work like they should exactly. I lose one point.
Still, if you ALREADY OWN one of those collections, then there's really no point in buying this one. srsly.
Portable. That's pretty much it.
Although, it's worth mentioning, DS Genesis emus are still a great way to play Tails/Knuckles in Sonic 1, and no Collection is changing that. 8)
Besides, Sega(Or should I say SONIC TEAM?) might [tornado fang] it up. After all, you guys do seem to remember the last handheld port.
In all fairness, porting and emulating are not the same thing. Sonic Genesis was a port, not emulation. There is no physically possible way to get a Genesis emu with sound and full speed running on the GBA. The DS is another story, though, and I sincerely doubt Sega would go to the trouble of porting four (effectively 6 or 7 with the Lock-Ons) games in such a situation. If it took that much effort they'd release them individuall and not all in one $30 cart.
In terms of emulation quality, look at past collections and VC, they've done alright. Weirded the hell out of the Sky Sanctuary instruments, but otherwise okay.
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There is the issue of, since X4-6 already use "Start, Select" for returning to the in-game title screen, that combination cannot be used for returning to the game selection screen. For compilations of older games there's usually a dedicated button to open a menu for that, but in XC, all the buttons are pretty much taken.
If I recall, there IS one available L2/R2 button, (depending which you map gigas to in the PSX games) and the select to go to the title screen is ONLY while in the pause menu. they could very easily have done what AC did, and have a separate pause menu come up with the option of returning to the "game room". hell, it could also give you your current password in X1-3. as I recal, Classic 7 and 8, had the select menu, but since there were no hints or bonuses there, it was just the option of returning to the game room or going to the title screen. hey could have pretty well done that. To me, X collection feels somewhat rushed. They were busy saving resources for Maverick Hunter X.
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X6 uses Select for Alia. "One button free depending on where your Giga Attack is" means the emu has to constantly re-adjust its menu button, and because the games are emulated, can't display this along with the rest of the button configuration, it'd need a separate screen/window to explain it. It'd be rather troublesome. The fact is all buttons are map-able save Select, which again, X6 uses. In addition Select is also mappable in X1-3 In MM8, Select is both unmappable and unused, as it is unused in all other titles.
My point is that in AC, Select is unused across all games. In XC, there is no consistently unused button. Even if you apply the alternate-pause-menu logic, Select is only available in X4 and X5.
However, now that I think about it, on the PS2 there is L3/R3 (pressing the sticks in until they click). They could have done that. Wouldn't help GCN users, though.
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They could have done anything way better. they could have even adde the option on the regular start> select pop up or something... select + Start simultaneously has cost me quite a few screw ups.
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So it's saying Sega can't handle thier own mascot like they used to?
I don't think it's so much that, more that they just don't care, as Shell talked about.
I recall an old developer rant, taken down because it allegedly spoiled Unleashed before it was even announced, about how Sonic Team has been reduced to a rushed yearly cash-cowing house with no passion left for what they're doing. I don't think that's too far from the truth. Many times they land a solid concept. But either because they have a deadline or because they just don't care, their projects virtually never get the fine-tuning in gameplay that they need.
Having read this same rant on GAF many moons ago, I would agree that's pretty much the truth. Between the devs being hard pressed to give two shits, and the Sonic fan base buying games, regardless of the quality? Sega hasn't had good reason to improve, if the public has made no real "demand".
I'm interested in seeing what Project Needlemouse is all about. But unless Sega/Sonic Team/whatever dev is involved, is actually interested in making a quality game? Things won't get better. There are a lot of fundamental probs with Sonic as a series now, and it goes far beyond the scope of how "super forms in levels" has not been a feature in the games in over 15 years. (Sorry, Shell. 8D ).
I would say more accurately Sonic Team. Remember NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams?
JoD was not exactly a shining example of how to make a great game, any more than Billy Hatcher was, but I don't think either game could be construed as scraping the bottom of the barrel of game design, as some of Sonic's last few games.
Sonic has been basically reduced to more than a ho that Sega expects to turn tricks, and "go out make some muthafuckin' money!" [/Butters] And that's sad, considering that, at least in Europe and the US, Sonic was definitely Mario's rival. But now, more than ever, the differences between the franchises has been made apparent.
Mario, as a franchise, as built, from the ground-up, as a means to help craft games. There was little to no "marketing appeal" that was at the center, so much that it was all a part of Miyamoto's functional design.
Sonic, on the other hand, was built as a franchise that was meant to cater to 90s marketing. The character himself was "radical, hip, edgy and cool". Sonic was practically the "Poochy" of his day. Possibly the only reason we even got decent games in the 90s based of him, was because of Sonic's "3 Dads", Naka, Yasuhara and Oshima, who took what marketing gave them, and (sonic-)spun it into gold.
Without those three, or at least, the same degree of fundamental thought and design those three gave the series? Is it any wonder why the series is in the pickle it's in now?
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There are those devs who would like to see decent Sonic games, though. The Rush games are proof positive of that to me. Rush Adventure stepped up the level design, but at the same time, bogged the game down with extra mission and collection crap.
Control mechanics may be hit-or-miss with new Sonics, but they do hit from time to time. What Sega has consistently forgotten is replay value. They bog the games down with extra menial tasks/game modes thinking it'll extend the play time, which it does, but it also kills your desire to replay it. Super forms are part of replay value which is one reason I make a big stink over it. Another is how to properly handle alternate characters (see S3&K). Character abilities which are different and useful, but do not mandate a separate stage type.
Shadow The Hedgehog was close, though. I'm not the biggest fan of a hedgehog with guns, mind you, but if you're going to add an extra ability Shadow is how you do it: You add it as a supplement to the core abilities, not as a completely new character type. What mainly killed the game there was the at times overly strict objectives (still beats the hell out of Heroes' Team Chaotix, though) and the fact that some idiot decided to make 10 endings instead of 5.
On your comments on sale-motivation mentality, how they'll not try to improve as long as sales are strong, is that you don't know how they'll respond when they're weak. As long as it sells, they keep trying, and with little exception the soundtrack at least usually justifies a Sonic purchase. It stops selling, they might not redouble their efforts. They might just figure, "people don't like Sonic anymore" and let him die. See ZX.
JoD was not exactly a shining example of how to make a great game, any more than Billy Hatcher was, but I don't think either game could be construed as scraping the bottom of the barrel of game design, as some of Sonic's last few games.
Although I will attach the disclaimer that I have not been, nor will be in the foreseeable future, able to play Sonic '06, I must strenuously disagree with that statement. JoD is worse than Heroes, worse than Shadow, worse than any new-age Sonic game I have ever played. At least the Sonic games look good. At least they sound good. And at least their control inputs have a tendency to actually work. JoD couldn't even get the damn Wii remote pointer right. The SYSTEM MENU outperforms it in control, that is damn sadder than any Sonic I have played. The only thing that even competes with that is Sonic Genesis, which is a port quality issue and not a game design issue.
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Rush Adventure stepped up the level design, but at the same time, bogged the game down with extra mission and collection crap.
Thus being a similar issue with Unleashed. The Day levels were vibrant, fun and very well put together, but when it came around to the Werehog stages it became slow and all too unappealing. And i fear Sonic Team will make the same mistakes with "Project Needlemouse". They try too hard, which ends up hurting instead of helping. Sonic games are straight-forward for the most part, and that is what Sonic Team has to understand.
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There are those devs who would like to see decent Sonic games, though. The Rush games are proof positive of that to me. Rush Adventure stepped up the level design, but at the same time, bogged the game down with extra mission and collection crap.
I dunno how much the Rush games count in this light though. Dimps handled the majority of the development, and Sonic Team was in a more advisory role.
That's nothing bad to say about that arrangement, barring the fact that the main games in the series that could be construed as good in the last few years, have only been with Dimps' involvement. That much extends to the Advance games, too.
What Sega has consistently forgotten is replay value. They bog the games down with extra menial tasks/game modes thinking it'll extend the play time, which it does, but it also kills your desire to replay it. Super forms are part of replay value which is one reason I make a big stink over it. Another is how to properly handle alternate characters (see S3&K). Character abilities which are different and useful, but do not mandate a separate stage type.
Extra characters I may agree on, but I still think that Super Forms are just a novelty, at best. You get the ability that pretty much proves your mastery of the game as a bonus, allowing you to plow through the game even faster than before. It's cute, that much goes without saying, but that's about it. The game itself doesn't change up any to respond to your new plateau of power, and so it does more to me to be a bit redundant.
If they're going to bring such a thing back, then I would really hope they do more to make it worth the while. Make a separate play mode that can be truly built around the new power you possess, or something. Or maybe make it like in DMC, VJ and Bayonetta, where you TRULY had to do the damn thing to earn that power, and by that point, there's nothing left for you to accomplish any way.
Definitely agreed that Sonic needs more in the way of replay value, to stay relevant though. A level creator, like the Flash thing that's been making the rounds on the net? That'd be a nice start...
The problem with the whole sale-motivation mentality, though, that they'll keep doing what they're doing as long as it sells, is that you don't know how they'll respond when it doesn't. As long as it sells, they keep trying, and with little exception the soundtrack at least usually justifies a Sonic purchase. It stops selling, they might not redouble their efforts. They might just figure, "people don't like Sonic anymore" and let him die. See ZX.
Well, I think of it like this: If they don't read into what is the basis beyond public outcries, then Sega's marketing team is more incompetent than what even I would be willing to give credence to. And it would just prove more that they don't know what's really best for the franchise, and maybe an "honorable death" is for the better.
There have been far more deserving franchises that have gotten the ax, instead of a sequel. And maybe, in some form of poetic justice, it may be that better that way. As far as I and many others are concerned, Sonic might as well be dead. And unless Needlemouse sincerely turns the page, I can predict only more joining that number. That's how bad of a position Sonic is in, and as a (largely estranged) fan, it saddens me.
Although I will attach the disclaimer that I have not been, nor will be in the foreseeable future, able to play Sonic '06, I must strenuously disagree with that statement. JoD is worse than Heroes, worse than Shadow, worse than any new-age Sonic game I have ever played. At least the Sonic games look good. At least they sound good. And at least their control inputs have a tendency to actually work. JoD couldn't even get the damn Wii remote pointer right. The SYSTEM MENU outperforms it in control, that is damn sadder than any Sonic I have played. The only thing that even competes with that is Sonic Genesis, which is a port quality issue and not a game design issue.
Aesthetics-wise, is a difference of opinion. For example, I thought JoD had a charming OST, even if it wasn't as godly as the original's. To say the least, it's done more for me than any recent Sonic game's OST, short of Rush's. But again, that's a matter of opinion. 8D
And while I'll give you that the Wii-mote control interface wasn't kosher, hey, that's what I thought the GC/CC controller options were for. Hell, everybody who was raised on the Saturn classic, and wanted to make sure they got fitting, "proper" controls, wouldn't accept anything else.
To say the least, JoD at least GAVE you the option to play the game the way you felt best. That's more than can be said for either Secret Rings or Black Knight. You want a true example of questionable controls? These games possess such in spades. I like how BK has input-lag on sword swings; that's a very BAD thing to have on what is basically the entire premise you're building a game around.
Thus being a similar issue with Unleashed. The Day levels were vibrant, fun and very well put together, but when it came around to the Werehog stages it became slow and all too unappealing. And i fear Sonic Team will make the same mistakes with "Project Needlemouse". They try too hard, which ends up hurting instead of helping. Sonic games are straight-forward for the most part, and that is what Sonic Team has to understand.
Agreed.
If ST were to just get the point that "less is more", we likely would have had a decent successor to the 2D games, and likely a "true arrival" of Sonic in 3D as well, YEARS ago.
And so, thus, we're truly at a crossroads. Either Sega has to be able to see the reason to just "return Sonic to his roots" (and actually MEAN it this time, with no unnecessary gimmicks!), or they're going to have to take Sonic in such a new, outright radical direction, effectively re-building the franchise from the ground up, so that they can actually have something solid to build on.
The former, is akin to why Rockman has done a lot to stay strong all these years. The Rockman franchise has offered numerous adaptations and changes over the years, and many, many sequels, but a lot of the base things that have made the games what they are since the NES days, have stayed the same. And for the most part, people have loved the series for that.
The latter, is why franchises like Mario have done a lot to stay fresh and relevant to this day. By and large, Mario has always done something to change things up and reinvent itself throughout the years. And usually, with a more fundamental focus in mind.
Either of these directions could benefit Sonic, at this point. Going back to the MD days would at least showcase that they really want to take it back to the roots, and all that they have to offer. We could even get nice, Rockman Zero like evolution that could really make for some nice level designs and gameplay aspects. Going Mario's route could also be nice, as perhaps Sonic is due for a true formula change beyond just relying on speed-based platforming.
Whichever the case...I just hope for the best. Maybe the fact that Sonic himself might be getting a re-design (that silhouette points to such a possibility) could showcase just what might be in store.
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So, Nintendo or Capcom should make the next Sonic game? XD
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Nintendo actually proved that they're quite capable of the "MegaMan" approach with NSMBWii. They also proved they were capable of handling Sonic in Brawl. So......why not? :P
I dunno how much the Rush games count in this light though. Dimps handled the majority of the development, and Sonic Team was in a more advisory role.
I didn't say it had to be Sonic Team that made a good Sonic game. Frankly I think it would be for the best if Sega dissolved/restructured them, as long as they keep Jun Senoue and Crush40 around.
Extra characters I may agree on, but I still think that Super Forms are just a novelty, at best. You get the ability that pretty much proves your mastery of the game as a bonus, allowing you to plow through the game even faster than before. It's cute, that much goes without saying, but that's about it. The game itself doesn't change up any to respond to your new plateau of power, and so it does more to me to be a bit redundant.
Different strokes for different folks. To me, that's half the replay value right there.
Of course, it depends on a kickass theme to accompany, such as STH2 and S3&K (STH3 I wasn't too fond of). Which is the one thing Sonic Team has been (usually) doing right.
If they're going to bring such a thing back, then I would really hope they do more to make it worth the while. Make a separate play mode that can be truly built around the new power you possess, or something.
That's basically what we have, though, except the "new mode" is just the final boss. Which is fine and dandy. Emerald power, story-wise, is something of a last-ditch effort due to energy consumption. What I'm saying is it *SHOULD* be available for the entirety of replays. There's no reason the game HAS to be designed around it. The whole idea is you need to control your speed while at the same time maintaining your ring count. Normal stages work for that perfectly fine. You move faster, you jump higher, you break stuff quicker, but you still fit the basic character type. It's a bonus to encourage replays. By making you WANT to, not by giving you a reason you HAVE to. That's where Sonic Team fouled up quite a few times.
maybe an "honorable death" is for the better.
That ship has sailed. Ages ago.
And while I'll give you that the Wii-mote control interface wasn't kosher, hey, that's what I thought the GC/CC controller options were for. Hell, everybody who was raised on the Saturn classic, and wanted to make sure they got fitting, "proper" controls, wouldn't accept anything else.
I've long maintained that providing traditional options is a good thing and all. The lack of it has been a big criticism of mine elsewhere (ie: Star Fox Command). But I really thought that NiGHTS could make for an interesting setup, and the sad thing is, when I play it I can see that it could have. But if you're going to do Wii controls, at least make them technically workable. The cursor hangs at the edge of an invisible circle, for crying out loud.
To say the least, JoD at least GAVE you the option to play the game the way you felt best. That's more than can be said for either Secret Rings or Black Knight. You want a true example of questionable controls? These games possess such in spades. I like how BK has input-lag on sword swings; that's a very BAD thing to have on what is basically the entire premise you're building a game around.
I've not yet bought Black Knight due to it being on my Christmas list, but I'll be able to comment on that in a matter of weeks. As for Secret Rings, works perfectly fine, as long as you're moving forward. And not on rails. Okay, so it could have been better, but the bulk of the game is smooth. Which is more than I can say for JoD.
If ST were to just get the point that "less is more", we likely would have had a decent successor to the 2D games, and likely a "true arrival" of Sonic in 3D as well, YEARS ago.
The Adventures may have some elements that weren't really necessary (Tails's mech and Big's fishing), but for the most part I think they were as much "true arrivals" of Sonic in 3D as anything Mario ever did. Considerably better than Sunshine, I have to say. First Adventure especially, kept the more off-the-wall game modes to short lengths, leaving Sonic with the longest and meatiest story. Second one, was a bit of a quality-over-quantity issue, but those stages where Sonic/Shadow were featured, they worked excellently. Final Rush remains my favorite 3D platforming stage, of any game, of all time.
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Sonic Adventure was good. Not breathtaking, but good. And Sonic Adventure 2 was solid. It just started to go downhill from there, at an alarming pace.
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*reads the last few posts about 3D sonic doin' it wrong*
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Well I want the Sonic Xtreme we never got. :P
>:C NAO, SEGA.
Anyway, Hypershell,
If its of any consolation, Sega had CONSIDERED putting Super Sonic back in levels in Sonic 06, according to in stage Super Sonic data pulled up by hackers.
Personally, I thought 06, it's story and insane load times aside, was headed in a good direction. The sonic and shadow gameplay were fun, with Shadow throwing in a few elements from his game, only reworked so they handled better than in the previous game.
Tails/Rouge gameplay was pretty good. and so was Omega/Knux's gameplay.
What I liked most though, was that instead of giving each character their own stage, like in SA1+2, or having the team system in Heroes, where more often than not, the need to switsh around got frustrating, each of the characters in the team had their own segment in the same stage. Of decent length, not too long, not too short... And I thought that most of the stages were fun to play through again.
They even added a new play through as Silver and his gang, (Blaze and Amy) Silver was actually kinda fun to use, and Blaze well.. She was a bit awkward to play as. But it was alright. I dont remember Amy though.
I also found Eggman's redesign, while somewhat hard to fully take in at first, to be somewhat refreshing. He got a redesign from Sonic&Knuckes to Sonic Adventure, so why not. it didnt exactly look BAD. (he could have looked a bit fatter though.)
Now the nitpicks...
The load times are one.
another is the story, (way to go Sega! You made a story that erases itself from ever having happened!)
then there are Sonic's power ups for his shoes, which while fun to mess around with on the hub world, were largely useless in the stages. (aside from the sheild. that was cool, it was like the electric shield all over again.)
Sonic-x-Human girl. Seriously, wat.
But yeah. And I want a sonic game where the spindash is actually useful again.
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Nintendo actually proved that they're quite capable of the "MegaMan" approach with NSMBWii.
Technically, you can say that they did that much earlier, with SMB2-JP/Lost Levels. And they'll likely do it again with Galaxy 2.
But overall, what can be stated is that Nintendo has done a lot more to push Mario in new fundamental directions more often than they have given us "expansions". And hell, going by how much NSMB Wii utterly wipes the floor with the original DS game, maybe the original efforts were more along the lines of "dry runs" for the real deals we stand to get later...
They also proved they were capable of handling Sonic in Brawl. So......why not? :P
Wouldn't mind as such at all. The least of what Nintendo's EAD teams could probably make for a better Sonic game than whatever Sonic Team has done in the last decade. That much would go without saying.
Different strokes for different folks. To me, that's half the replay value right there.
What I'm saying is it *SHOULD* be available for the entirety of replays. There's no reason the game HAS to be designed around it. The whole idea is you need to control your speed while at the same time maintaining your ring count. Normal stages work for that perfectly fine. You move faster, you jump higher, you break stuff quicker, but you still fit the basic character type. It's a bonus to encourage replays. By making you WANT to, not by giving you a reason you HAVE to. That's where Sonic Team fouled up quite a few times.
Meh, honestly, I've preferred it the way it was done in games like DMC, Viewtiful Joe and etc, which have also done a lot to mimic this same aspect. In those games, by the time you completed the hardest mode/hardest challenges in the game, you get rewarded with an item/power-up/option that basically makes you invincible, with all of the advantages in the game at your disposal. The game does a lot to tell you "Alright, you've truly mastered me, and I could honestly not challenge you any further. Enjoy your Bruce Leeroy Glow(tm)!" 8D
Super Sonic was basically the predecessor to that, in that, likewise, by the time you earned it, there really is no more challenge the game could offer you. You've surmounted the collect-a-thon/scavenger hunt/bonus stage relay challenges, and there's nothing more for you than just mess around with the new status you have with "the glow".
There's nothing wrong with that, but it would have to be a thing that, to make it more worth the while, either a) the challenges to get the glow need to be steeper or b) they need to do more with making the glow part of the gameplay. Because what the MD Sonics did with this aspect was inherently flawed. You could earn the glow before the game was over, and neutralize any remaining challenge away before the game was "finished" (except for Sonic 2). There's no other perks to being Super Sonic, like being able to find new things in levels, old bosses having new battle patterns or the like.
That be like if Dante, in DMC, could earn Unlimited Devil Trigger before even finishing Normal mode, and yet, the game doesn't do anything otherwise to account for that.
It's just spells bad balancing and lack of deeper thought on the part of the devs. And I wouldn't want such an aspect returned UNTIL such details are addressed.
That ship has sailed. Ages ago.
It's never to late to do the right thing! It at least would stop the possible stream of any more bad ideas being made into Sonic games! 8D
I've not yet bought Black Knight due to it being on my Christmas list, but I'll be able to comment on that in a matter of weeks. As for Secret Rings, works perfectly fine, as long as you're moving forward. And not on rails. Okay, so it could have been better, but the bulk of the game is smooth. Which is more than I can say for JoD.
The worse I can say for JoD is that the 3D "platforming" sections, where you're NOT flying as Nights and playing as those brats? Those were definitely the pitfalls in the game.
But turning around for Sonic in SR? I think pulling my own teeth out would be the only thing that would exceed how much of a painful experience that was.
The Adventures may have some elements that weren't really necessary (Tails's mech and Big's fishing), but for the most part I think they were as much "true arrivals" of Sonic in 3D as anything Mario ever did. Considerably better than Sunshine, I have to say.
(http://b1.s3.quickshareit.com/9fobp1713fc.jpg)
....
...Seriously?
I'll definitely admit that Mario Sunshine was probably the "worst" of the 3D Marios. But I'll be damned if I consider ANYTHING that Sonic has done in the 3D realm as worthy of even being COMPARED to Sunshine, much less being better than it.
The worst you can say about Sunshine is that it felt too gimmicky because of FLUDD and tacked-on Yoshi, and lacked the polish that either 64 or Galaxy possessed. But there was never anything truly detrimental about the game, itself.
The worst you can say about pretty much any given 3D Sonic is a truly bad camera, questionable hit/collision detection and borderline game breaking glitches. And that's not to say some of the issues that were mutually exclusive to any one entrant of the franchise.
The Adventure games were "decent", at best, if we were willing to look past their inherent faults. But that's about that could be said about those games, gameplay-wise.
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Because I like my DS, would like to play these on a portable, and don't have much space on my flashcart?
How big is your flashcard? 32MB?
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1GB, but it's all filled with games :P
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1GB, but it's all filled with games :P
You can't free up 8MB?
In any case, I already have them emulated on PC, PSP, and Wii.
I even have a real copy of Sonic 3 for Genesis and Sonic & Knuckles Collection for PC.
I don't feel like paying for these games again.
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Whoa, back the heck up.
Let's get one thing straight.
Other 3D Marios > Super Mario Sunshine = Sonic Adventure 1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 3D Sonics
Okay, now I don't feel like I've failed teaching you people, carry on.
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Whoa, back the heck up.
Let's get one thing straight.
Other 3D Marios > Super Mario Sunshine = Sonic Adventure 1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 3D Sonics
Okay, now I don't feel like I've failed teaching you people, carry on.
I think Sonic Adventures goodness comes from the fact it was the first 3D sonic(Sonic R Doesn't count) and pretty much followed Sonic 3 & Knuckles's formula of selecting a character and playing the game.
Sonic Adventure 2 added onto the story and had some really nice level ideas, but fell victim to too much drama and TheyChangedItNowItSucks.
Sonic Heroes was horrible. On a scale between Megaman X2/8 and Megaman X7, it's Megaman the PC game. You know the one.
Sonic The Hedgehog could have been the next Sonic Adventure1, but someone [tornado fang]'d up.
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I think Sonic Adventures goodness comes from the fact it was the first 3D sonic(Sonic R Doesn't count) and pretty much followed Sonic 3 & Knuckles's formula of selecting a character and playing the game.
Sonic Adventure 2 added onto the story and had some really nice level ideas, but fell victim to too much drama and TheyChangedItNowItSucks.
Sonic Heroes was horrible. On a scale between Megaman X2/8 and Megaman X7, it's Megaman the PC game. You know the one.
Sonic The Hedgehog could have been the next Sonic Adventure1, but someone [tornado fang]'d up.
how many times have i told you to get the [tornado fang] off my internet?
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I don't know?
[spoiler]Ham[/spoiler]
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I think Sonic Adventures goodness comes from the fact it was the first 3D sonic(Sonic R Doesn't count) and pretty much followed Sonic 3 & Knuckles's formula of selecting a character and playing the game.
Sonic Adventure 2 added onto the story and had some really nice level ideas, but fell victim to too much drama and TheyChangedItNowItSucks.
Sonic Heroes was horrible. On a scale between Megaman X2/8 and Megaman X7, it's Megaman the PC game. You know the one.
Sonic The Hedgehog could have been the next Sonic Adventure1, but someone [tornado fang]'d up.
I fail to see whats so horrible aside from the team gimmick in heroes. Each team has the stages with different things, Dark more enemies (and tougher), Chaotix completely different, (and sorta random) mission objectives, and rose, starts and or ends earlier.
the only raaage stages are certain parts of Mystic mansion, and Rail canyon.
Sonic 06 was nice, I didnt care for the increibly lame load times, but it was a good game. My bigest gripe is the insane Deus ex machina story ending. HAY LETS MAKE A GAME THAT CHRONOLOGICALLY NEVER HAPPENS!
It honestly did feel like an adventure game almost.
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I think Sonic Adventures goodness comes from the fact it was the first 3D sonic(Sonic R Doesn't count) and pretty much followed Sonic 3 & Knuckles's formula of selecting a character and playing the game.
What? That's nothing like S3K. In S3K, all 3 characters (4 if you count Sonic seperate and Sonic+Tails as 2 different characters) play the same with only a few differences, and 2 of them play the exact same stages. In SA1, some characters don't play in certain stages at all, others get very limited versions of the stages, and with the exception of Sonic and Tails their gameplay styles are radically different.
Oh, and you must think MMX7 was the best X game because it was first 3D game, don't you?
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I fail to see whats so horrible aside from the team gimmick in heroes. Each team has the stages with different things, Dark more enemies (and tougher), Chaotix completely different, (and sorta random) mission objectives, and rose, starts and or ends earlier.
the only raaage stages are certain parts of Mystic mansion, and Rail canyon.
Was actually playing this yesterday. I hated how unreliable the homing attack was. It cause plenty of deaths, especially in Casino Park and Rail Canyon. More over, it didn't really have a nice "snap" to it, like it does in Sonic Unleashed PS3/360. I also wasn't too fond of the traction (or lack thereof) characters had.
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What? That's nothing like S3K. In S3K, all 3 characters (4 if you count Sonic seperate and Sonic+Tails as 2 different characters) play the same with only a few differences, and 2 of them play the exact same stages. In SA1, some characters don't play in certain stages at all, others get very limited versions of the stages, and with the exception of Sonic and Tails their gameplay styles are radically different.
Oh, and you must think MMX7 was the best X game because it was first 3D game, don't you?
How does X7 being the first 3D title make it my favourite? Even if you were trying to make some kind of analogy to my Sonic preference, S3&K is my favourite Sonic game.
Someone's bitchy.
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your logic has so many [tornado fang]ing holes, xnam.
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Whoa, back the heck up.
Let's get one thing straight.
Other 3D Marios > Super Mario Sunshine >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sonic Adventure 1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 3D Sonics
Nah, still don't buy it. That's why I had to go ahead and "fix" it., in my case. 8D
The most I can say about Sonic Adventure 1, is that, by the time the US version rolled around, it fixed up some of the issues that were REALLY detrimental to the original JP Dreamcast build (which was my first experience with the game). As much was wrong with the US version, it's on a whole new level back in the JP original; framerate was all over the damn place, and the camera/controls were even worse. Homing Dash, a lot of the time, refused to work correctly, and the Light Speed Dash was the cause of so many inadvertent deaths. And a number of other things that aren't worthy of mention.
With Adventure being Sonic's relaunch, as well as one of the leading causes to try and sell the Dreamcast in Japan (and a last effort to save the Sega brand over there as well), they really did a lot to drop the ball with the initial release of the game quite a bit. Little wonder why the Japanese never changed their largely indifferent disposition towards Sonic.
And hell, it certainly soured my overall attitude towards Sonic from that point on.
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Well, then it sucks to be you, Ben. But I think it'd be foolish to prioritize one misstep over any future attempts at correcting it. Not unless there is some other reason to return to that version when given the choice.
As for Heroes, my gripe with it is that the "character selection" amounts to a difficulty setting and voice preferences, nothing more. They all tackle the same stages and bosses and there is almost no difference between the teams ability-wise. Which in itself would have been fine if the game didn't require you to clear it as every one.
Team Chaotix is a whole other beast. Shadow The Hedgehog's missions were at times a minor annoyance, Team Chaotix was a constant headache.
Technically, you can say that they did that much earlier, with SMB2-JP/Lost Levels.
Lost Levels is one game made in the image of its predecessor. I meant more long-term. NSMBW is pretty much is a hats-off to every Mario game from arcade Mario Bros. up to SM64, plus the DS NSMB.
Because what the MD Sonics did with this aspect was inherently flawed. You could earn the glow before the game was over
I didn't say to copy the Genesis approach step-for-step. It's pretty commonplace for the Emeralds to hold some story-relevant value these days. If that continues it pretty much mandates that using their power in stages is restricted to replays. Nothing wrong with that.
and neutralize any remaining challenge away before the game was "finished" (except for Sonic 2).
What Sonic 2 were you playing? Or are you referring to the fact that the Death Egg doesn't have enough rings to activate Super Sonic? Still doesn't change the fact that you're neutralizing a lot of stages.
In the fact, I'd call it more true of Sonic 2 than the others, since it lacks a save feature, you cannot carry the hope of replaying with the emeralds outside of cheating. So, if you care, you're driven that much harder to collect them as early as possible.
There's no other perks to being Super Sonic, like being able to find new things in levels, old bosses having new battle patterns or the like.
Maybe in STH2, but in S3&K that's not entirely true. The higher jump gives Sonic an easier time accessing branches that would normally require Tails's help. Super Sonic also breaks walls automatically akin to Knuckles (with the exception of Knuckles' character-exclusive routes, of course), which makes finding hidden paths easier. You could easily stumble into something you had previously missed.
The worst you can say about Sunshine is that it felt too gimmicky because of FLUDD and tacked-on Yoshi, and lacked the polish that either 64 or Galaxy possessed. But there was never anything truly detrimental about the game, itself.
I actually didn't mind FLUDD, even if the platforming "bonus stages" were generally the better parts of the game. It functioned fine and was fun to use, particularly when filling up Petey's gut. No, my issues with Sunshine lie elsewhere:
1. As you mentioned, Yoshi. Not only is he available by fetch-quest only, but he's impossible to take between stage entrances/exits, and he EVAPORATES ON CONTACT WITH WATER (you also lose him if he goes hungry long enough, but it takes a long time for that to happen so it's not much of an issue; still stupid). It's atrocious. As big a fan as I am of the super dragon, even I would be tempted to ignore him completely if not for the fact that his fruit juice is required to get past certain blocks.
2. Speaking of Yoshi's fate during stage entrances/exits, a fundamental flaw in *ALL* 3D Mario's is the inability to carry anything between stages. In 64 nobody cared because the game had no permanent power-ups anyway. Nozzles in Sunshine? Forget it. This is the one thing Galaxy did nothing to fix, although it's less noticeable since nearly all of its power-ups are either timed or designed for specific obstacles. Still, I don't know many who would call a timed Fire Flower a good thing.
3. There is a severe lack of variety in the scenery. Not since Lost Levels has a Mario game focused on a single visual motiff. In Sunshine, EVERYTHING is the damn island paradise theme. It gets old.
4. Going with the lack of variety, and perhaps most detrimental of all, you have the same number of stars as SM64 crammed into fewer stages. Which means even more repetition in an environment already lacking variety, and a general lack of feeling of "progress" as you strive to collect more Shine Sprites for whatever unknown benchmark is next (Sunshine is the only 3D Mario to not bother telling you what your next collection goal is).
I'm sorry, but the Adventures beat that in my book. I don't care if the occasional glitch sends you falling through the floor, it's worth it.
a truly bad camera
I don't think the 3D game exists that has not, at some point, been criticized for a bad camera. Tiny Huge Island gave me more camera issues than either Adventure. If it didn't break Mario, it doesn't break Sonic.questionable hit/collision detection
One more reason SA2 is a "quality over quantity" issue as compared to SA1.
Sega wasn't exactly master of physics in 2D Sonic games, either. Many times I've sent Sonic flying through a wall in the oldschool side-scrollers.
Whoa, back the heck up.
Let's get one thing straight.
Other 3D Marios > Super Mario Sunshine = Sonic Adventure 1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 3D Sonics
Okay, now I don't feel like I've failed teaching you people, carry on.
*gives Aldo ZEE UPPERCUT!!*
If you fail to differentiate SA2 from "other 3D Sonics", then you are fit to teach nothing.
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Just to kinda chime in on something that Hyper brought up, I actually did understand the reason for timing the items one used in Galaxy. The Fire Flower was too damn broken in that it killed most everything that moved (all at the cost of losing the momentum stalling that the standard spin allowed) and Ice Mario's design was created for making creative platform challenges that usually revolved around getting from point A on a water front to point B -- a hidden away area or lesser used shortcut. If these powers were standard fare that could be moved about the levels, it'd certainly be a bit more to the gamebreaking side of things, and on top of that there's also the issue of losing the spin maneuver which really supplemented a good portion of the platforming.
Honestly, I don't really see it as a negative that the 3D games have focused less on keeping items and abilities between levels. I see it more as a change in design focus and as such, I can understand why certain things act differently in one set of games rather than the other. It'd be cool though if there came a game built with deeper 2D Mario routes that would allow for this, but for what the current 3d games are, I enjoy em lots.
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With Adventure being Sonic's relaunch, as well as one of the leading causes to try and sell the Dreamcast in Japan (and a last effort to save the Sega brand over there as well), they really did a lot to drop the ball with the initial release of the game quite a bit. Little wonder why the Japanese never changed their largely indifferent disposition towards Sonic.
And hell, it certainly soured my overall attitude towards Sonic from that point on.
So, I wasn't the only one who, when first trying out Sonic Adventure, didn't like it that much? XD
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I think it's really hard for anyone who grew up during that era to admit that Sonic Adventure was really a very flawed transition to 3D, myself included. We all fell hard for the Dreamcast hype and-- HOLY [tornado fang] I'M OUTRUNNING A GIANT WHALE, SONIC AM BACK.
Not to say the game was terrible, but it's definitely one of those things that time has gotten the better of.
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I think it's really hard for anyone who grew up during that era to admit that Sonic Adventure was really a very flawed transition to 3D, myself included. We all fell hard for the Dreamcast hype and-- HOLY [tornado fang] I'M OUTRUNNING A GIANT WHALE, SONIC AM BACK.
LoL, I fell hard for the Dreamcast hype with Virtual ON, Power Stone, & Jet Set.
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Well, then it sucks to be you, Ben. But I think it'd be foolish to prioritize one misstep over any future attempts at correcting it. Not unless there is some other reason to return to that version when given the choice.
"One" misstep?
But....isn't that we've gotten? Every 3D Sonic game, in essence, has done more to basically cite Sonic Adventure, and then, some how, foul it up even more, instead of doing more to fix the issues at hand. 06 being the worst of the lot, and Unleashed being possibly the least offensive since the first Adventure (for what it's worth).
I mean, tell me why they focused on gimmicky things like adding more characters, a Tamagotchi-like diversion, weapons and playstyles, but a lot of the fundamental flaws that have plagued the Sonic 3D gameplay formula since at least Adventure-US, have still remained in even Unleashed, a game released just this last year? That just shows a disturbing thing of how Sega doesn't "get it". It goes even beyond how "returning to roots" is a meaningless tagline.
Lost Levels is one game made in the image of its predecessor. I meant more long-term. NSMBW is pretty much is a hats-off to every Mario game from arcade Mario Bros. up to SM64, plus the DS NSMB.
It can be denied though, that theme-wise, NSMBW is basically an expansion of NSMB. NSMB was very much a homage to a lot of what classic Mario was about, it was all there. Its successor just does it better in every way possible.
What Sonic 2 were you playing? Or are you referring to the fact that the Death Egg doesn't have enough rings to activate Super Sonic?
That's the one.
Maybe in STH2, but in S3&K that's not entirely true. The higher jump gives Sonic an easier time accessing branches that would normally require Tails's help. Super Sonic also breaks walls automatically akin to Knuckles (with the exception of Knuckles' character-exclusive routes, of course), which makes finding hidden paths easier. You could easily stumble into something you had previously missed.
As far as "meta game" thing went, it still was pretty thin. I guess I can only critique it so much since it was among the first of its kind, but again, I can't stress enough how they would need to give it some serious thought before ever implementing such a feature again.
1. As you mentioned, Yoshi. Not only is he available by fetch-quest only, but he's impossible to take between stage entrances/exits, and he EVAPORATES ON CONTACT WITH WATER (you also lose him if he goes hungry long enough, but it takes a long time for that to happen so it's not much of an issue; still stupid). It's atrocious. As big a fan as I am of the super dragon, even I would be tempted to ignore him completely if not for the fact that his fruit juice is required to get past certain blocks.
2. Speaking of Yoshi's fate during stage entrances/exits, a fundamental flaw in *ALL* 3D Mario's is the inability to carry anything between stages. In 64 nobody cared because the game had no permanent power-ups anyway. Nozzles in Sunshine? Forget it. This is the one thing Galaxy did nothing to fix, although it's less noticeable since nearly all of its power-ups are either timed or designed for specific obstacles. Still, I don't know many who would call a timed Fire Flower a good thing.
3. There is a severe lack of variety in the scenery. Not since Lost Levels has a Mario game focused on a single visual motiff. In Sunshine, EVERYTHING is the damn island paradise theme. It gets old.
4. Going with the lack of variety, and perhaps most detrimental of all, you have the same number of stars as SM64 crammed into fewer stages. Which means even more repetition in an environment already lacking variety, and a general lack of feeling of "progress" as you strive to collect more Shine Sprites for whatever unknown benchmark is next (Sunshine is the only 3D Mario to not bother telling you what your next collection goal is).
While valid complaints, there's one big thing to note here: they're all aesthetic, in scope. None of these quirks, of which some I agree with, in the end, do anything to actually hamper the actual way the game plays. None of these things do anything to showcase truly BAD coding and play-testing at work. It'd be the same thing as me attacking a modern day Sonic game for its terrible storylines. It may be valid, but it has no bearing on the gameplay itself.
There lies the difference between the complaints that you could have with Sunshine, as compared to what I have with 95% of the Sonic games made in the last few years. There's the aesthetic, and then there's actually things relating to the actual game engine itself.
I'm sorry, but the Adventures beat that in my book. I don't care if the occasional glitch sends you falling through the floor, it's worth it.
....
(http://i32.tinypic.com/1huiw6.png)
...Yeah, nothing more to talk about in this particular argument. 8D
Just to kinda chime in on something that Hyper brought up, I actually did understand the reason for timing the items one used in Galaxy. The Fire Flower was too damn broken in that it killed most everything that moved (all at the cost of losing the momentum stalling that the standard spin allowed) and Ice Mario's design was created for making creative platform challenges that usually revolved around getting from point A on a water front to point B -- a hidden away area or lesser used shortcut. If these powers were standard fare that could be moved about the levels, it'd certainly be a bit more to the gamebreaking side of things, and on top of that there's also the issue of losing the spin maneuver which really supplemented a good portion of the platforming.
Honestly, I don't really see it as a negative that the 3D games have focused less on keeping items and abilities between levels. I see it more as a change in design focus and as such, I can understand why certain things act differently in one set of games rather than the other. It'd be cool though if there came a game built with deeper 2D Mario routes that would allow for this, but for what the current 3d games are, I enjoy em lots.
Yeah, this.
Honestly, you could say that it's just another one of the design philosophy that was inherited by Yoshi's Island. Temporary power-ups. Hip Drop. Red Coins. Spherical Worlds (for Galaxy). And I'm sure there's others from whence that came...
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This talk really makes me wonder, am I seriously the only person that's never had any of the commonly complained glitches or problems with the camera in ANY 3D Sonic before 06 (because I don't have a way to play it)?
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I used to be that way Tai, until I started experimenting like I always do in games like that and found myself clipping through the ground in a very specific place in Emerald Coast in Sonic Adventure. Ah boost panel into the abyss, how I love thee. XD
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author=Taiyo link=topic=3033.msg182427#msg182427 date=1260238632]
This talk really makes me wonder, am I seriously the only person that's never had any of the commonly complained glitches or problems with the camera in ANY 3D Sonic before 06 (because I don't have a way to play it)?
Well, aside from easy bosses in StH, I for one actually felt no problem with StH's controls. :/
Reusing a boss for another stage is one thing, being that same easy boss is another.
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When it came time for me to adjust the camera in a 3D Sonic, it always felt very clunky and uncooperative. But then again, I usually don't have to worry about the camera in these games. It usually stays fixed behind me, where it belongs. And after beating the games once or twice (I'm mostly referring to the 2 Adventure games here), there was little need to rotate the camera for exploring outside of Treasure Hunting stages.
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I used to be that way Tai, until I started experimenting like I always do in games like that and found myself clipping through the ground in a very specific place in Emerald Coast in Sonic Adventure. Ah boost panel into the abyss, how I love thee. XD
Oh, I think I remember that and I think it's the only time it's ever happened to me.
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I dont see any of the problems with sonic 06 aside from leading that all you are seeing... :\
The bosses arent great, and it feels as if there werent enough, but I still liked it.
I find it fun to know they considered making Super Sonic unlockable through that mysterious "Rainbow" Gem that was left unused in the game. (all it seems to do is when the button is pressed, is show Sonic doing a flip and seemingly do the pose for going super) Then theres also the Supersonic in stage data unlockable through hacking.
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Yeah, but at the same time it's a real middle finger to see that it's not in the final product.
I played a good portion of Sonic 06 on my friend's PS3 a year ago. I didn't think it could get worse than the demo, but it kinda did. The game is still very slow and clunky. I'm not sure it it's because of that that the stages seem to take forever. And it's really glitchy, too. I mean, REALLY glitchy. I couldn't do [parasitic bomb] as Knuckles. Never has climbing up a wall been such a chore. And did we really have to play through 2 stages of Adventure 1 all over again?
My friend bought it not because he was expecting a fun game. He bought it purely for the lol factor, to make fun of the terrible plot and acting, to see just how bad it really was.
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I rarely encounter any glitches. The only thing I can complain about, is as Knuckles OR Rouge, jumping FROM a wall seems to be difficult to do.
Clunky? the auto run ones might feel that way, but Since Ive played Unleashed, I cant complain about it. XD
Is only natural it would seem bad. Also, I liked the little nod to SA1. Who knows, maybe it was the same Orca too.
"Hmm? is that... ITS THAT BLUE GUY AGAIN! MUST... CHASE..."
I liked the game, because of how they handled Shadow. He worked the way he SHOULD have worked in ShTHH. That includes the vehicles. They were much more fun to use. Although Chaos Blast during Chaos boost seemed to be a rather useless maneuver... As you kinda needed to be RIGHT next to the enemy for them to get hit.
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Little nod? They [tornado fang]ing COPIED the god damn levels.
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So? I thought It was fun. I didnt mind.
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Honestly, I don't really see it as a negative that the 3D games have focused less on keeping items and abilities between levels. I see it more as a change in design focus and as such, I can understand why certain things act differently in one set of games rather than the other. It'd be cool though if there came a game built with deeper 2D Mario routes that would allow for this, but for what the current 3d games are, I enjoy em lots.
I get that if the game is not designed with power-ups that you hold in the first place. Sunshine most definitely does not fall into that category; all nozzles and Yoshi are held indefinitely. You just lose them for entering/exiting a stage.
As for Galaxy, as I said, the fact that most are either timed or stage-specific lessens the impact. Bee Mario is about the only one that would honestly have been useful, and even so, the point on the spin maneuver is well made. And timed Mario power-ups are nothing new, and not in and of themselves bad. The Ice Flower is essentially a P-Switch with player-dependent platform placement. It's just odd to see the Fire Flower shoved into that category. Especially since its abilities actually can be reconciled with the spin maneuver rather easily. I don't see how it'd break the game considering the fact that you can point-and-shoot to stun the baddies anyway.
As I said, nobody cared in Mario 64. And by "nobody", I'm including myself. If the game is not designed for holding on to some power-up, that's fine. Sunshine was. They just chose to smack you in the face every time you change scenes.
Not to say the game was terrible, but it's definitely one of those things that time has gotten the better of.
There are games out there that age worse than the Adventures despite initial impressions. Besides the aforementioned Sunshine, there's also X5.
"One" misstep?
(http://home.comcast.net/~Anguirus/holdit.gif)
You missed the context completely. I am referring to SA1 specifically, *NOT* to any other games. "Future attempts" meant other regions, re-releases, and such. I am referring to your opinion of SA1, not to your opinion of 3D Sonic in general.
I mean, tell me why they focused on gimmicky things like adding more characters, a Tamagotchi-like diversion, weapons and playstyles, but a lot of the fundamental flaws that have plagued the Sonic 3D gameplay formula since at least Adventure-US, have still remained in even Unleashed, a game released just this last year? That just shows a disturbing thing of how Sega doesn't "get it". It goes even beyond how "returning to roots" is a meaningless tagline.
I'm not all that fond of Chao either, but they are easily ignored. They are a diversion, nothing more, nothing less, and in no way forced. The other play styles (mainly referring to the additional characters here) in SA1 are acceptable because the main focus of SA1 is still on Sonic, and that's what Sega's lost since then. Heck, many of the alternate SA1 characters didn't play that differently from Sonic, which is really as it should be. Tails and Amy work fine (even if I wish Tails's stages were longer), they're still running to the goal in a platformer, just with different spins on it. Knuckles is perhaps a victim of the 3D switch as gliding/climbing breaks any "open" stages, so rather than designed closed ones they overhauled his goal. Big and Gamma are the only real oddities, and their respective stories are short. Again, it's a matter of focus. Gamma was awesome when he first hit the scene, but that doesn't mean his play style should be overtaking the traditional. That's the main mistake that SA2 made, however I find it a vast improvement over SA1 in nearly all other regards.
As far as "meta game" thing went, it still was pretty thin. I guess I can only critique it so much since it was among the first of its kind, but again, I can't stress enough how they would need to give it some serious thought before ever implementing such a feature again.
The keyboard cannot possibly stress enough how much I disagree with you. It's a matter of personal opinion and I'll leave it at that, but I do not see why it is required for an additional segment of the game (beyond the final boss shpiel we already have going) need be designed around an entirely optional ability. Take any given Sonic element that worked, expand it, distance it, and segregate it from the established play style, and you fall into the same trap we were already criticizing with new character/gimmick use. You begin addition a distraction rather than an expansion.
While valid complaints, there's one big thing to note here: they're all aesthetic, in scope. None of these quirks, of which some I agree with, in the end, do anything to actually hamper the actual way the game plays. None of these things do anything to showcase truly BAD coding and play-testing at work. It'd be the same thing as me attacking a modern day Sonic game for its terrible storylines. It may be valid, but it has no bearing on the gameplay itself.
I have to disagree, that counter-point applies soley to point #3. Loss of otherwise permanent abilities (points 1 and 2) due to a map switch is not aesthetic. And you encounter that at least twice per Shine Sprite. Which is a LOT. One Shine Sprite does not merit a lot of play time, making it a constant annoyance.
Point 4 is arguable. Being forced to replay the same stage isn't just an aesthetic problem, it's also a matter of when sheer redundancy makes the game feel like a chore. Heroes and Shadow made the same mistake, albeit to greater lengths.
95% of the Sonic games made in the last few years.
You keep bringing the entire line of modern Sonic up when in fact I am defending only two titles, the most recent of which is well over eight years old. You have issues with recent Sonic games? So do I. So I don't know who that debate is directed at.
...Yeah, nothing more to talk about in this particular argument.
Emphasis on "occasional". I will note that in Sonic Adventure 2 I cannot remember the last time my extra life count was below 70. So yeah, for all those allegedly unfair deaths that every bitching fan suffers, I must be kicking a lot of ass.
When it came time for me to adjust the camera in a 3D Sonic, it always felt very clunky and uncooperative.
It's funny you should say that. Because if anything I've found camera adjustment in Mario 64, and even Galaxy (both of which I love, mind you), to be far more troublesome than either Sonic Adventure (although to be fair you don't really need to be looking around in Sonic nearly as often). It feels like every other time I try to adjust the camera I get the buzzer telling me I'm not allowed to. It gets very, very annoying at times.
That being said I don't consider it a deal-breaker. Even in isolated incidents where I consider camera issues to be a genuine gameplay flaw, they're usually brief enough that I don't care. The only game that I ever felt suffered a constant camera problem was Metroid Prime 3, due to the inability to disable the game's auto-level (when you have a pointer to tell the game where you want to look, the game has no business trying to correct you). And even then, I managed to work with it. To reiterate:It usually stays fixed behind me, where it belongs.
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It's funny you should say that. Because if anything I've found camera adjustment in Mario 64, and even Galaxy (both of which I love, mind you), to be far more troublesome than either Sonic Adventure (although to be fair you don't really need to be looking around in Sonic nearly as often). It feels like every other time I try to adjust the camera I get the buzzer telling me I'm not allowed to. It gets very, very annoying at times.
Oh I totally agree. Moving the camera in 64 and Galaxy is a royal pain in the ass, and I avoid it as much as possible. Oddly, though, Sunshine's camera was pretty cooperative.
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You know, I've finally realized something pretty big about myself reading this thread. I give my games a lot of leeway for things or I'm just not so picky or finicky with them. The camera in Super Mario 64 all the way through Galaxy has never given me an issue in my life. Actually, I can say that out of all the games I've ever played in my life, the only one where the camera gave me even the slightest issue was (ironically) Sonic Adventure 1 in spots (Chaos 1 Battle, I'm looking at you).
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You know, I've finally realized something pretty big about myself reading this thread. I give my games a lot of leeway for things or I'm just not so picky or finicky with them. The camera in Super Mario 64 all the way through Galaxy has never given me an issue in my life. Actually, I can say that out of all the games I've ever played in my life, the only one where the camera gave me even the slightest issue was (ironically) Sonic Adventure 1 in spots (Chaos 1 Battle, I'm looking at you).
Yeah, the camera has never given me any problems in the 3D Mario games. The camera also wasn't my problem with Sonic Adventure either. I just...well didn't like it. I thought it was boring.
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Sums up my thoughts on Sunshine nicely. Different strokes.
Yeah, like I said, I virtually never consider camera an issue in any game. It's just that others keep bringing it up as an issue with Sonic, so I thought, "Well, if I *HAD* to say which game gave me camera trouble..."
Yeah, Mario comes to mind a lot sooner than Sonic in that department. But I never really cared. When people criticize Mario 64's camera I usually think they're being stingy weirdos.
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Oh I totally agree. Moving the camera in 64 and Galaxy is a royal pain in the ass, and I avoid it as much as possible. Oddly, though, Sunshine's camera was pretty cooperative.
Because it zoomed so far out, you could see everything.
Sonic Unleashed could learn from it.
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The (photo-shopped) screens are here now. (http://www.eversonic.fr/V6/news-425-SCC:_28_nouveaux_screens.php)
Sonic 3 & Knuckles is available~ ^^
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So they took out the horizontal viewspace left and right?
Huh. Well, that might jack some Sonic 1 players, but I don't guess S2-S&K will suffer all that much. I don't know, though; kinda hard to judge just how much field of vision got cut.
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Having already emulated Sonic 1 on DS, I don't think it's terribly significant. Certainly not as much so as playing Super Mario World on a GBA screen, anyway.
Sonic 3 & Knuckles is available~ ^^
And therefore, the existence of this collection is justified.
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Having already emulated Sonic 1 on DS, I don't think it's terribly significant. Certainly not as much so as playing Super Mario World on a GBA screen, anyway.
In that case, I'm set.
Just as long as we don't repeat Super Mario Bros. Deluxe. UGH.
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Cl lΓMICAl Pl ANT
ZONE1
(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/9133/1266331205664.jpg)
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Hoo boy. Let the emulation issues come pouring in!
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EW
Please let that be someone's mock up and not an actual shot...
Even so, if that was done so that the player could see enough of the screen, which looks to be the case, then it won't keep me from buying it.
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good old sega, messing up handheld ports/remakes.
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I was really hoping that Sega would have the sense to adjust the HUD locations and leave it at that. I am *NOT* paying the price of a commercial game to experience handheld screen scaling. It looks butt-ugly, and I would much rather have the cutoff.
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Cl lΓMICAl Pl ANT
ZONE1
(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/9133/1266331205664.jpg)
Nice. The screenshots look somewhat like elephant [parasitic bomb]. And Vix had the good sense to parody it.
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I have Sonic Jam sitting in my Saturn.
this.
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gameplay footage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dUQZFDihaQ)
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...guys?
It doesn't look that bad to me. I know the footage is blurry and what all so some things might be amiss, but it's not like it's horribly flawed or stretched too far or the physics are wrong.
What say you all?
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That actually looked okay enough to play.
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Looked good to me, honestly. But only time will tell.... *downloads* >_> <_<
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Some sprites seemed to flicker away at points. And there seemed to be some extra lag, like when he got hit by the ball'n'chain.
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Looks exactly like it should to me.
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Some sprites seemed to flicker away at points. And there seemed to be some extra lag, like when he got hit by the ball'n'chain.
No worse than emulator, Sonic Mega Collections, or PC collections.
Even then, I recall some graphical glitching on the Genesis. Not nearly as much as the above-mentioned titles, but certainly very close to this game's same level.
Posted on: March 02, 2010, 09:24:32 PM
Just picked it up, and oh brother, here's the rundown:
+It's portable classic Sonic.
+Sonic 3 and Sonic 2 and Knuckles ARE on this.
+It's not a repeat of Sonic Genesis; the physics are completely intact.
-Sonic 2's options menu is gone. I don't know how the hell you're supposed to do Level Select, Debug, and Super Sonic codes. Sonic 3 only had the 1P option; even the Time Attack's missing. No apparent multiplayer options.
-It is a tad choppy at heavy-processing parts; no worse than any emulator, though.
-The screen is still stretched. Now it is noticeable, but does not hinder gameplay. The tradeoff is, you get full vertical view.
-The sound emulation is decent, but not perfect. Some sound effects don't "fire" or sound like they should.
-Pausing is done by the touch screen; Start and Select don't work.
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So then it's OK if I want portable classic Sonic then?
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So then it's OK if I want portable classic Sonic then?
Passable would be the better word. :\
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I think I'll just continue to hope that jEnesis DS is one day updated to be able to handle a game as large as S3&K. Plug any other Sonic game/hack into it and it works just fine. In the meantime, there's always Mega Collection.
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I think I'll just continue to hope the jEnesis DS is one day updated to be able to handle a game as large as S3&K. Plug any other Sonic game/hack into it and it works just fine. In the meantime, there's always Mega Collection.
Provided its structure is right and has a decent number of buttons or functions, I'm buying an early PSP2.
Then, not touching it until a certain, later point in time. ;)
EDIT: There is a good thing about this Collection; the Special Stages function extremely well. I'm impressed by the improved handling in the S3&K special stages compared to previous emulations.
I've missed playing as Tails...so cute and can fly.
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My friend picked this up yesterday, so we all got to try out some of it. I played up till Carnival Night in S3K. And I noticed quite a bit of inconsistencies.
- For some stupid reason, the game select calls S3K "Knuckles in Sonic the Hedgehog 3."
- There are no multiplayer modes or options menus.
- Sound effects sometimes don't come out right. Like if you release a spin dash as soon as you start it, you won't hear the "pshoo" sound, just the revving sound.
- There is more lag in places. And the game in general does run slower than normal. Probably due to a reduced framerate.
- The background in the magnetic spheres bonus stage is [tornado fang]'d up.
- There's a lot of flickering in the special stages. The ground jitters so much at times, it's nauseating.
- During a boss fight, you can slowly scroll more of the screen thanks to the cropping done.
- Upon completing an act, the screen will move a bit closer to the center, so your character might get cut off during the score tally.
All in all, though, it's still playable. If you really really want to play the Genesis Sonics on the go and haven't already put emulators on your portable devices, you'll be just fine with this.
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Makes you wonder why the hell they removed the options menus.
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Well, at least it doesn't sound to be as much of a disaster as Sonic Genesis.
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Makes you wonder why the hell they removed the options menus.
They must not want us to be able to cheat.
Well, at least it doesn't sound to be as much of a disaster as Sonic Genesis.
Oh nowhere NEAR as bad. I can't even call Sonic Genesis playable, it's so broken.
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I don't know why they took out the Options, Start Button, and the Level Selects. And Multiplayer.
UGH! Somebody figure out how to hack this game.
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I don't think pause on the touch screen is necessarily bad. It's just unexpected.
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I've gotten used to the Touch Screen Pause, but if I had the Start button, I could at least do Sonic 1's Level Select.
I heard the "ring" sound after UDLR. ;O;
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My friend picked this up yesterday, so we all got to try out some of it. I played up till Carnival Night in S3K. And I noticed quite a bit of inconsistencies.
- For some stupid reason, the game select calls S3K "Knuckles in Sonic the Hedgehog 3."
- There are no multiplayer modes or options menus.
- Sound effects sometimes don't come out right. Like if you release a spin dash as soon as you start it, you won't hear the "pshoo" sound, just the revving sound.
- There is more lag in places. And the game in general does run slower than normal. Probably due to a reduced framerate.
- The background in the magnetic spheres bonus stage is [tornado fang]'d up.
- There's a lot of flickering in the special stages. The ground jitters so much at times, it's nauseating.
- During a boss fight, you can slowly scroll more of the screen thanks to the cropping done.
- Upon completing an act, the screen will move a bit closer to the center, so your character might get cut off during the score tally.
All in all, though, it's still playable. If you really really want to play the Genesis Sonics on the go and haven't already put emulators on your portable devices, you'll be just fine with this.
Can he run it on an emulator and try to force the menu option to be selected through RAM hacking?
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My friend picked this up yesterday, so we all got to try out some of it. I played up till Carnival Night in S3K. And I noticed quite a bit of inconsistencies.
- For some stupid reason, the game select calls S3K "Knuckles in Sonic the Hedgehog 3."
- There are no multiplayer modes or options menus.
- Sound effects sometimes don't come out right. Like if you release a spin dash as soon as you start it, you won't hear the "pshoo" sound, just the revving sound.
- There is more lag in places. And the game in general does run slower than normal. Probably due to a reduced framerate.
- The background in the magnetic spheres bonus stage is [tornado fang]'d up.
- There's a lot of flickering in the special stages. The ground jitters so much at times, it's nauseating.
- During a boss fight, you can slowly scroll more of the screen thanks to the cropping done.
- Upon completing an act, the screen will move a bit closer to the center, so your character might get cut off during the score tally.
All in all, though, it's still playable. If you really really want to play the Genesis Sonics on the go and haven't already put emulators on your portable devices, you'll be just fine with this.
For some reason the PC port (AKA: Sonic & Knuckles Collection) is better emuliated, with the exception of music (that I can live without) than most of the ports today.
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For some reason the PC port (AKA: Sonic & Knuckles Collection) is better emuliated, with the exception of music (that I can live without) than most of the ports today.
Sonic & Knuckles Collection owns the sky.
Someone needs to make a jukebox hack for it with Winamp(like that one arcade emulator(kawaks?). That way we can use the GYM or VGMs. Or set up some sort of trainer that watches the EXE for music prompts and makes winamp play certain files.
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I had that, and I loved it. I d/led it and it just sucks. Yes, classic Sonic for new generation is good, but still. If you want to play these, do one of the following:
1. Download on VC
2. Buy Sonic Mega Collection (or SMC+)
3. Get an old Genesis if you don't have one already and get the originals
4. Emulate on PSP or something...
A good attempt, admittedly better than Genesis (although taking a [parasitic bomb] is better than playing that atrocious abomination), but they could've done better. Much MUCH better...
Also, am I the only one who wants the UDLR in Sonic 4?
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Also, am I the only one who wants the UDLR in Sonic 4?
Your not the only one...
UDLR+C *ring*
i lost mah StH,StH2 and S&K tape lol......somone robbed it.....missed em.... ;O;
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I had that, and I loved it. I d/led it and it just sucks. Yes, classic Sonic for new generation is good, but still. If you want to play these, do one of the following:
1. Download on VC
2. Buy Sonic Mega Collection (or SMC+)
3. Get an old Genesis if you don't have one already and get the originals
4. Emulate on PSP or something...
A good attempt, admittedly better than Genesis (although taking a [parasitic bomb] is better than playing that atrocious abomination), but they could've done better. Much MUCH better...
Also, am I the only one who wants the UDLR in Sonic 4?
Emulating on the PSP rocks(as long as you don't mind using Fast Emulation(water coloring is weird). I have Sonic, Knuckles in Sonic, Sonic 2, Knuckles in Sonic 2, Sonic 3 & Knuckles. I had Sonic CD, but I don't care for it much.
PS: Play Sonic(2 or 3 is prefered) with those red and blue 3D glasses.
PPS: There might be a seizure risk.
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Codes do work in this. Screenies of proof. At least these two work. Apparently, you need to be S3&K for that one to work... Stupid.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y194/dakirbymaster/levselectscc.png)
You need to hold Y and press Start. However, since the Options menu was removed from S2 and no competition option in S3 means no codes for that.
Also, lol cut off level select screen.
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But wait a minute, how'd you get to the Sonic 2 level select screen without the options menu? I thought that was the only way to do it.
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Look Closer, its Knuckles in Sonic 2. That one didn't have an options screen, you entered the code in on the title screen.
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Oh, I forgot about that.
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Look Closer, its Knuckles in Sonic 2. That one didn't have an options screen, you entered the code in on the title screen.
Wasn't Sonic 3 & Knuckles done by doing it while hanging on a swinging vine?
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But you need to hold A+Start (on the genesis version at least) to return to the title screen. No pause means no debug mode.
Also, relevant:
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y194/dakirbymaster/sonic3_soniccc_comparison.png)
Which would you rather play? Original, vibrant Sonic, or crappy, washed-out, shrunken Sonic?
ARGH! Dang forum is resizing it! It's supposed to be 896x448, but it resizes it to 500x250! ARGH!
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First of all, I love the Genesis. It was my second console. Admittedly, I pretty much only got it for the Sonic games. I never thought the games ran bad on it. I wasn't much of a Mario fan when I was younger, so I didn't see the point in a SNES. Also, I didn't really get into RPGs until high school and I didn't even know about the RPG monopoly the SNES had until that time either.
Second, Mirby, you're playing it on an emulator. Those aren't the true colors of the DS screen. The vibrant color mode in No$GBA is actually a bit closer to the real experience.
Third, size is relative to where the screen is being viewed. The DS is meant to be paid within a personal distance. This means that the size of the screen isn't that big of an issue. I think that the cropped screen is bit more of a concern. It doesn't look like they adjusted the resolution to fit the DS, they only centered it over the screen. I would assume that would cause numerous potential glitches.
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Whatever. The point remains, the originals are much better.
Also, the level select screen resizing proves the point.
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Back when I was trying the game out, I thought something was up with how Sonic looked. Turns out yeah, the screen's scrunched in. That probably caused the flickering I saw as well.
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Question: On the actual version, does Sonic still lack a shadow in the Blue Sphere stages?
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I don't recall. I'd guess so, though.
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Well that's stupid.
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I didn't think Sonic fans would ever complain...
*puts on shades*
...about new Sonic lacking a Shadow.
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oh u
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I didn't think Sonic fans would ever complain...
*puts on shades*
...about new Sonic lacking a Shadow.
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAH!!
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:D
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http://epiconeliner.com/
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Bookmark'd along with instantrimshot.com! 0v0
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(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y194/dakirbymaster/sonic3_soniccc_comparison.png)
Genesis should be about 256x224. Why did you post that 2x screenshot.
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So that Sonic Classic Collection would look smaller than it actually is, of course.
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That was the size of the screenie I got from Gens...
I use emulators a lot... V_V
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That was the size of the screenie I got from Gens...
I use emulators a lot... V_V
But not enough to know that at 512x448 screenshot of a Genesis game is enlarged...
Oh god, that scaling. You honestly thought that was what the game looks like by default?
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Wikipedia
The Mega Drive has a dedicated VDP (Video Display Processor) for background graphic and sprite control. This is an improved version of the Sega Master System VDP, which in turn is derived from the Texas Instruments TMS9918. Images can be output at 256 pixels (32 tiles) or 320 pixels (40 tiles) across and 224 scanlines (28 tiles) or 240 scanlines (30 tiles) down. The 240-line resolutions are only used on 50 Hz (i.e. PAL) displays, as the extra lines end up in the overscan of a 60 Hz (NTSC) signal.
NTSC games use the 224-line resolution to free up more vertical blanking time to send more updates to the VDP. Colors are chosen from a total of 512 possible colors, 3 bits per RGB; some games used a small amount of flicker to simulate more colors. Graphics consist of up to 80 sprites on screen and three background planes (Window, ScrollA, ScrollB), two of which (ScrollA and Window) share the same screen space. Palettes are stored in color RAM (CRAM) and consist of 16 colors each for a total of 64 colors.[69][72]
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Original
(http://old-wizard.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/aquatic_ruins_from_sonic_2_for_mega_drive.png)
2X
(http://old-wizard.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/aquatic_ruins_from_sonic_2_for_mega_drive.png)
Learn the difference. It could save your life some day.
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To translate Aldo's post for the uninitiated, Mirby's screencap has the proper ratio despite being twice as large as normal. Which I think is the argument trying to be made; the ratio is changed on DS. Though admittedly if you do want to compare the screens, having them at different sizes is not the way to get your point across. Either shrink the Genesis picture, or blow up the DS picture, and cut out the bottom screen cause that doesn't help any.
xnamkcor and Lightning are correct in that respect. Their attitude isn't correct, though. You guys are being jerks.
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Lessee... The 2x resolution was apparently because I took in in Fullscreen mode... just did it in windowed, and native! Tweaked the color settings on No$GBA, and they're more faithful to the original than I thought. But still no shadow. Aldo, you are not David Caruso. Stop. Or are you... >_>
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y194/dakirbymaster/S3SCC_compare2.png)
Better?
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xnamkcor and Lightning are correct in that respect. Their attitude isn't correct, though. You guys are being jerks.
I wasn't being a jerk, I was being a smart ass. There's a difference!
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And there's nothing wrong with that. Ich bin ein Schlauberger!
Think that's spelled right...
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I'm sorry I was a jerk because he compared versions with different sized images.
PS: How's the framerate?
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Well I took native this time, okay?
Also, it's normal. For the most part. But it's emulation, so its to be expected I suppose.
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(http://old-wizard.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/aquatic_ruins_from_sonic_2_for_mega_drive.png)
Does this image contain one of those background overlays I hear about that only exist in every second column of pixels so that on a real TV screen, adjacent columns blend together and produce a transparency effect?
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I think so. I remember the waterfalls in Aquatic Ruin Zone being transparent.
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Aldo, you are not David Caruso. Stop. Or are you... >_>
8D
You don't know who anyone really is on the Internet.
Unless you're PB and have a scrapbook of video-game and sci-fi related awesome all set in areas of NY.
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PS: How's the framerate?
Not good. It's at the most half of what it was on the Genesis. And it lags pretty frequently.
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Yeah, and that screen crunching causes some rather large salt-and-pepper glitches in the video.
Honestly, I'm hoping there's a better collection for the DS2 or PSP2.
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Sounds like it sucks! I'll have to give it a try myself then.
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In absolute terms, yes, it does suck.
But for me, hell I just want some portable 1P Classic Sonic (specifically S3&K), so I'm satisfied. And again, the lag occurs when there are numerous items on screen. Zones like Marble (1), Chemical Plant (2), and Hill Top (2) will be a-okay, whereas the heavier parts of Star Light (1), Casino Night (2), and Death Egg (K) will see their share of lag.
BTW, Sonic 1's not as hard to complete as I thought. I only had to retry Emerald 5 once.
And getting there was easier than I had remembered; a number of acts have 2 or 3 10-Ring Monitors near the end in hidden areas (lookin' at you, Star Light).
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Honestly, I'm hoping there's a better collection for the PS3.
Fix'd for my specifications.
All I know is that same leaked Sega document from last year that talked about Vanquish (P*'s Mikami game, PS3/360), also talked about a "Sonic Blu-Ray Collection". If they were literally able to cram EVERY old Sonic game on there, with perfect emulation, that would effectively be the last Sonic-related thing I'd have to buy. Doubly so, if it included both Original and American OSTs of Sonic CD. [eyebrow]
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Posts: 777
Jackpot! :P
At any rate, something other than Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection?
I like the Sonic Blue/Blu-Ray gimmick, though. XD
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Sad part is, the an unofficial emulator running on the PSP has better results. Only drawback is you have to choose between proper water transparency or a slight reduction in framerate.
Also, Knuckles in Sonic 1.
I would have rather they give us a choice(I'd choose screen crop).
I like what RIN(GBC for PSP) lets you do. You can have a small section of the bottom or top compressed. works nicely with Zelda.
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Also, Knuckles in Sonic 1.
Speaking of which, why haven't we gotten this outside of Sonic Jam?
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We never got that in Sonic Jam, it was a hack. What we got in Sonic Jam was Blue Sphere. From what I remember, the Sonic 1 engine had problems with Knuckles so they had to can the whole idea.
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Jam only had Sonic 1 with spin dash. No Knuckles, no Tails, none of that.
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Oh right, that ~was~ a hack. My bad.
They were going to do it, but Knuckles' jump height kept it from being green-lighted.
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Was it so hard to make him jump higher?
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I thought it was an issue with the colors in Knuckles' sprite. Either that or gliding on conveyer belts woulda screwed something up, which doesn't make sense to me.
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I thought it was an issue with the colors in Knuckles' sprite. Either that or gliding on conveyer belts woulda screwed something up, which doesn't make sense to me.
I think that was the issue, and some guys made it so you could use Knuckles in Sonic 1 without any screw-ups of the sort. They only hire total geniuses at Sega it seems. ::) [/sarcasm]
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I mean wouldn't color be as easy as making Knuckles' reds the same color as Sonic's shoes? If you wanted to take the really lazy way out?
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I guess it must be better to have no game at all than to have a game with a slightly inaccurate color!
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I guess it must be better to have no game at all than to have a game with a slightly inaccurate color!
Eh, I got all three emulaited on the PC thanks to Genesis emulation AND the Sonic and Knuckles collection (I still have it, lol), so I don't have to go worry about spending $50+ at a local Kmart for a port gallery.