RockmanPM Forums
Rockman & Community => Rockman Series => X => Topic started by: OBJECTION MAN on July 04, 2010, 03:34:14 AM
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The childish third man in the primary line of defense for maverick wrong doings... Axl.
Love him, or hate him? Was Axl more, or less, welcome in X8 as opposed to X7? What do you, and don't you like about him?
Some feel he breaks up the tried and true dynamic of the X and Zero partner team. Others feel he fits right in, or even to a greater degree, we should have more actual playable characters much like Command Mission... What do you think?
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Well, I do like magic users sooo...
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Axl... does not exist...
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I feel that Axl overshadows X too much. Atleast in X7/X8.
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Axl is okay.
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Look at my sig.
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i still think that Axl is probably good character,But lacks What X & Zero Have...
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Well, I do like magic users sooo...
MAGIC MISSILE
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Hell no. Because at least to me, everything that Axl represents seems like something that could have been a possible development for an already established character, like say....Dynamo.
I mean, how do we go from a guy like Dynamo, who had decent development as an antagonist who rivals X and Zero in combat ability (and certainly has enough common sense to retreat), yet clearly has his own agenda to...nothing at all? And in his place, we get this new kid who comes out of nowhere, and is the impetus of a new plotline that just does more to ditch everything that X5 and X6 were building up towards?
To me, Axl does even more to represent what went wrong with Inafune-less Rockman X than even X6. So if he gets retconned away, I won't have any problem with such at all.
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No, I don't like him, but I don't dislike him either.
I'm indifferent, really.
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Hell no. Because at least to me, everything that Axl represents seems like something that could have been a possible development for an already established character, like say....Dynamo.
I mean, how do we go from a guy like Dynamo, who had decent development as an antagonist who rivals X and Zero in combat ability (and certainly has enough common sense to retreat), yet clearly has his own agenda to...nothing at all? And in his place, we get this new kid who comes out of nowhere, and is the impetus of a new plotline that just does more to ditch everything that X5 and X6 were building up towards?
(http://home.comcast.net/~Anguirus/objection.gif)
That was......objectionable! -AC
Dynamo is an annoyance and little else. In design, he's a bastardization of X and Zero thrown into a blender. In gameplay, he's a pushover. In story, he's a jerk whose Robin Spitz-Swallows survival rate makes it a miracle that X and Zero retain their sanity. His "combat ability" being remotely comparable to X and Zero is complete rubbish. If he's not even a Hunter, not even KNOWN by Signas, then how in the hell does he get a mission efficiency rating higher than Zero? Especially when his only priority is his own ass. He barely has any place as a meaningful antagonist (gluttons for punishment have some value, I suppose) and CERTAINLY has no place as a player.
I don't dislike Axl, but I must admit that I'll always regard X and Zero as "the" dynamic duo of the Hunters. Nevertheless, he does provide a fresh perspective, especially in X8, when you get to see a new character confront the old nemeses (in one game he already gets sick of Vile, you can't help but laugh at that). In gameplay, he's been a bit of trial-and-error, but I think that both X8 and ZXA offered some strong possibilities. Incorporate double-pistols into his default attacks (even if only for aesthetics), and make shape-shifting the basis of his special attacks instead of some limited stage gimmick, and he'd be set.
To me, Axl does even more to represent what went wrong with Inafune-less Rockman X than even X6. So if he gets retconned away, I won't have any problem with such at all.
Excuse me, but it's not as if Inafune-equipped Rockman X hasn't suffered its own pitfalls. X5 was horrendous in gameplay and badly presented in story. MHX is ugly as sin (in terms of character models, anyway) and watered down one of the best buster upgrades the series ever saw to half strength. And X6, while not the best way to broaden the series audience, happens to rock a lot of socks as a challenge for the hardcore fans, not to mention features some of the finest large-scale enemy battles and SNES remixes that the series has seen, and the fact that you finally get to kick the recurring villain while he's down.
And know this: Whatever X5 was building towards, Inafune had no intention of continuing. No shred of evidence has ever suggested that Wily's appearance would ever have anything to do with the Zero series. From the Sigma Virus's defeat, to Zero's death, to Wily's confirmed yet off-screen and unresolved involvement, X5's story was exceedingly badly executed. Inafune let it pass because all he wanted was to end the series, and it was evidently his assumption that the series dies when Zero dies (he's probably right in that regard). With all due respect, screw him. At least X6 had the decency to show us that Wily dropped out versus X5 referencing his involvement without ever having him make an appearance in the first place. And while Zero is my favorite character, the Zero series was never and will never be a substitute for the X-series.
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I love him! 8)
He's my favorite character from the series, right alongside with Zero! I wish they make another Megaman game that explains what happen to Axl before the Elf Wars and why he's never mentioned by X or Zero in the Zero series (then again, they were both busying stopping Copy X/Eplizo/Omega/Dr. Weil at the time so no time to talk about the old days).
Though some of his dialogue in Command Mission, especially the bit about Zero at that Factory, seems out-of-place sometimes.
I look forward to Axl's next appearance!
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Forgive me for saying this, but it seems to me that they only mentioned Wily to give a reason as to why Zero was destined to fight X. We always knew X was created by Light, but it wasn't until X4 that we knew Wily created Zero, even though we'd been inundated with ZERO WOULD ONE DAY FIGHT X in the previous three games. Zero did in fact fight X in X5, thus concluding that part of the story. With Zero's destiny fulfilled, there was really no point to continue Wily's involvement in the X series.
@VC: I do too! ^_^
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So by connecting the dots...
Cossack was the original creator of Axl? o:
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If they ever felt like re-introducing Wily, making Axl into Zero's little brother would make a surprising amount of sense. Copy Chips leading to the elimination of Sigma and all. It was clear in X6 that Wily had no reservations about his creations kicking Sigma's ass; I'd imagine he broke off the alliance after X5's plans went haywire.
We always knew X was created by Light, but it wasn't until X4 that we knew Wily created Zero
Actually hints of that were dropped in Rockman X2, but we lost them in localization. X3 went completely Wily-less in all regions, though.
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I remember it saying that in both X1 and X2... at least the ZERO WOULD ONE DAY FIGHT X stuff...
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For X1 that'd be quite impressive, considering that Zero had the notable handicap of being dead.
I think you heard wrong.
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Okay, maybe not X1. But I definitely remember it in X2.
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I think only X3 and X4 flat out say it. I don't recall it in the English X2, which I recently replayed. That and you actually DID fight Zero in X2 (usually). The only thing in the English script that semi resembles it is Sigma wondering why Zero didn't follow his orders despite him thinking it was Zero's destiny.
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It's in the credits, or the ending scene.
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Well... I was gonna pwn Ben, but HS did it for me.
On the factual side, HS takes the win.
As for opinion, I love Axl. He is the fresh new flavor the series needed. Not that the X series is going anywhere anymore.
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I have no beef with Axl. Just how the decided to present him in the game...
It's the equivalent of someone take a fork and force feeding broccoli down your throat, when you really just want the carrots, or at least the ability to eat the carrot without being force fed the broccoli.
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I think only X3 and X4 flat out say it. I don't recall it in the English X2, which I recently replayed. That and you actually DID fight Zero in X2 (usually). The only thing in the English script that semi resembles it is Sigma wondering why Zero didn't follow his orders despite him thinking it was Zero's destiny.
Having beaten X2 just yesterday, it doesn't flat out say X has to fight Zero until X3. X2's ending vaguely mentions "something" must be sacrificed in order to obtain peace.
As for Wily, he is somewhat mentioned by Sigma's final words in X2, "...the last of the doctor's creations."
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In retrospect, it works. But at the time, it was a bit too vague. Could have referred to anyone. Back in the day, I thought he meant Cain.
RMX2 is a bit more specific. "Wi...Numbers..."
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I feel that Axl overshadows X too much. Atleast in X7/X8.
Just to touch on this, since I didn't in my previous post.
I think the way they're planning it, which may not have been intentional from the beginning, it looks like they are going for sets of three. X1-3 was mainly X centric, and showing X's growing potential. X4-6 was mainly Zero centric, revealing the Wily connection, and Wily's continued presence. X7-8 so far have been very Axl centric, with his appearance along with the copy chips.
I think they're trying to do it in sets of three. 1-3 X, 4-6 Zero, 7-9 Axl, and ideally a 10 just to tie up all the lose ends and bring it to a finale ending where all characters reach their final conclusive story closure.
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MegaMan and story closure? Right.
If they learned ANYTHING after X5 it was, God willing, to stop writing themselves into a corner unless they are damn sure their spiritual successor can measure up (such as Z4 to ZX).
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Haha, I said ideally :P
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Axl? hes ok. I have to however, respond to the Dynamo = X plus Zero in a blender... Axl isnt much better off in that respect either.
as to Zero, theres always the "the connection to wily was planned since the beginning"
So while Zero being made by Wily might not have been on the table during X1, by X2, it most definitely was decided. they put in Serges and that Sigma line about him being the last Wily number, and then in X4, outright told us.
Also, on the inafuneless X series bit, X3 isnt exactly the best example of X series either. I love it to death, but it DOES have that large empty room syndrome, or large rooms with only hordes of tiny enemies. The same few enemies were repeated in every stage... the PSX versions controversial music and inconsistant intro animation...
Axl was ok. its more the GAME that is X7 that causes hate, because he was introduced as an X clone without a charge shot, and with a crappy transformation gimmick.
in X8, he was much better, if a bit too Bass, and had the different weapons with different shot types gig. in Command Mission, well, thats a different playstyle, but they played on the idea of his specials being transformations, which is what his special weapons should always have been. Storywise though... Hes a NG prototype, but it hasnt gone beyond that, and isnt as remotely interesting as it could be, in comparison with X or Zero's stories. Perhaps if they dug more into his past, instead of relegating him as nothing more than the one New Gen who ISNT maverick because hes a prototype, he would be more intruiging. Command mission took that track a bit, with him on Gigantis searching for clues as to his origins, and then getting mixed up in X's adventure, eventually finding that the rumers of copy chip production and research were of the second wave of New Gens, Redips and his men. Command Mission Axl IMO was more interesting to me storywise than X7 or 8.
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Just to touch on this, since I didn't in my previous post.
I think the way they're planning it, which may not have been intentional from the beginning, it looks like they are going for sets of three. X1-3 was mainly X centric, and showing X's growing potential. X4-6 was mainly Zero centric, revealing the Wily connection, and Wily's continued presence. X7-8 so far have been very Axl centric, with his appearance along with the copy chips.
I think they're trying to do it in sets of three. 1-3 X, 4-6 Zero, 7-9 Axl, and ideally a 10 just to tie up all the lose ends and bring it to a finale ending where all characters reach their final conclusive story closure.
From a plot point, you're 100% right. But I also felt Axl overshadowed X in terms of gameplay too. Going by X8, X automatically loses his uniqueness by not being the only playable ranged hunter. On top of that, Axl being able to fire repeatedly and in multiple directions, as well as having the extra ability to hover and roll makes X pretty much worthless. Even more, Axl can also use his weapons an infinite amount of time. It's not until X can fire giant lasers (Icarus Armor) that he's anywhere close to Axl's level.
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Having also replayed X8 recently, I can say that is not the case. X having the ability to use vastly different types of special weapons,where as Axl uses mostly very similar types, along with his armor abilities makes him play a fair deal different than Axl. On top of that X is a lot more mobile than Axl is in general, and he can attack while moving.
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Agreed. And seriously, to hell with specials, NOBODY could ever call Hermes head + Icarus buster worthless.
Even by default, though, X stands up to Axl pretty well given the huge power of his charged shots and his mobility while firing. Also, while Axl's delayed barrier activation against bosses give his default weapon high damage; his specials don't give him the same benefit, leaving X superior if you have the appropriate weakness available. The only thing that really makes unarmored X a bit of an underdog is that X relies on armor for the 1/2 damage benefit, whereas everyone else gets chip upgrades. But then it's a pretty unfair comparison to allow one upgrade variety and disallow another. Unless you're Alia; she's up the creek.
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But she has BOOOBS!!!
And nice ones too! :P
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No argument here. I maintain that her wardrobe change signals an imminent blitz on X, that poor oblivious fool.
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I Wonder...Was Axl Meant to be a Girl?...or isn't it obvious he sounded like one?
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I never thought he sounded like a girl, in fact except for Zero I could easily tell which characters were guys. As for Axl I like him, his intresting personality balances X and Zero's pretty well to me.
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I think those two shitty shortfics I wrote and posted in my thread, best summarize what I think of Axl.
Crap, now I want to write a sequel. DAMNN YOU PEOPLE!
Anyway, he's quite useful in X8 actually. I always pick him and Zero.
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Axl > X when it comes to usefulness. 8 direction shooting, stun locking, hovering and shooting, infinite specials... yeah. Not to mention no pansy ism and all that.
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Pansyism is mainly an issue in X7. It is considerably less so in X8 and near nonexistant in XCM. Heck, Zero throws worse fits in XCM than X does.
Infinite specials is nice, but they're all pretty redundant. It's the same omnidirectional rapid-fire mold simply with different shot effects, kinda kills Axl's variety. He is useful though, and I think in particular he owes a lot of that to his hover-while-firing mechanics. That is EXTREMELY valuable for a rapid-fire character. I grew to miss it a lot while playing as Bass in MM10 (MM&B is more permissible due to the larger character size in relation to screen size).
One thing I liked about the X7 Axl, though, was the G-Launcher. It's like taking the Ultimate Buster and sticking it in a rifle. Definite win. It does make me want to hold onto the alternate-weapons shpiel. I just don't think they should be the basis of all of his special weapons from bosses.
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If they ever felt like re-introducing Wily, making Axl into Zero's little brother would make a surprising amount of sense. Copy Chips leading to the elimination of Sigma and all.
I don't think it would make sense from the perspective of virus immunity. X and Zero have their own perfect/near perfect virus countermeasures in response to the Roboenza incident. Axl too has such an ability, different from X and Zero's, but like X and Zero in that its something the world hadn't seen before. At the same time, Axl has attributes of both X and Zero; variations of weapon copy and learning ability... As it is, I think it's almost appropriate to start giving Cossack more credit...
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Well, I do like magic users sooo...
Axl... does not exist...
Oh you. XD
Axl is a magic user. (http://forum.rockmanpm.com/index.php?topic=1214.msg67688#msg67688)
Magic does not exist. (http://forum.rockmanpm.com/index.php?topic=1318.msg73322#msg73322)
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I don't think it would make sense from the perspective of virus immunity. X and Zero have their own perfect/near perfect virus countermeasures in response to the Roboenza incident. Axl too has such an ability, different from X and Zero's, but like X and Zero in that its something the world hadn't seen before. At the same time, Axl has attributes of both X and Zero; variations of weapon copy and learning ability... As it is, I think it's almost appropriate to start giving Cossack more credit...
Then it is time to ask Word of God (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod) Inafune about Axl's origins. Although I would love if he is created by the hands of Dr. Mikhail Cossack, it wouldn't matter me at all, if he wasn't. Instead there might be the chance that Gate created Axl.
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Well, there are plenty of possibilities, I was just naming one. If we wanted to get really obscure, you could tie him to the Erasure and Berkana, stealing DNA for advanced power-ups and all, and the "revival" of sorts that an outright copy allows.
Gate might be oddly convenient too, in light of the mysteriously-pulled ZC timeline. If we are to hold that as valid, then we DO need some reason to re-investigate the Nightmare post-XCM. Plus he's got the whole DNA-manipulation vibe covered in Metal Shark Player.
It's very well possible that even on Capcom's end, Axl's origins may not have been set in stone yet. Certainly the little information that has been released still leaves that part of the story very open.
I don't think it would make sense from the perspective of virus immunity. X and Zero have their own perfect/near perfect virus countermeasures in response to the Roboenza incident.
It's not really a matter of immunity, though, rather it's a matter of setting Sigma up. I mean, all implications at this point suggest that the Sigma Virus outlives Sigma himself anyway. From Wily's perspective that's awfully convenient.
Axl has attributes of both X and Zero; variations of weapon copy and learning ability...
Duo, who is alien to the planet, has variations of weapon copy. That's pretty much a mandatory part of being a playable character in the Classic/X series. Since X5 Hunter Base has been taking a part in utilizing the data from defeated bosses, and it was established since his debut that Axl can transfer his copied DNA data to others, so I wouldn't read too much into Axl's version of VWS. Especially since they haven't really established a consistent means as to how it works. I don't see the "new gun for every boss" formula surviving forever.
As it is, I think it's almost appropriate to start giving Cossack more credit...
I don't object to Cossack having his own buried masterpiece, but I don't see Axl as being it. According to Lumine, Copy Chips are made using old-model Reploid data, which means whoever is behind Axl was most likely living during the Maverick Wars. You COULD twist those words around as applying only to "proper" New Gens, but then giving their chips radically different origins damages the validity of Axl referencing their viral immunity.
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Even by default, though, X stands up to Axl pretty well given the huge power of his charged shots and his mobility while firing. Also, while Axl's delayed barrier activation against bosses give his default weapon high damage; his specials don't give him the same benefit, leaving X superior if you have the appropriate weakness available. The only thing that really makes unarmored X a bit of an underdog is that X relies on armor for the 1/2 damage benefit, whereas everyone else gets chip upgrades. But then it's a pretty unfair comparison to allow one upgrade variety and disallow another. Unless you're Alia; she's up the creek.
[objection!]
Actually both X and Axl can get 8 shots off on a boss without stopping. I agree with the whole weakness thing, though, Axl's weapons are quite weak against bosses as your default weapon will outright overpower it, as odd as that is.
Also, unarmored X (as well as Alia) has the uncanny ability to charge and shoot at the same time, which can actually prove to be more useful than his armored variations given proper usage. This is extremely helpful in instances where you need heavy firepower, such as the miniboss sections of Booster Forest.
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I like Axl. Then again, I think X8 should have been full 3d.
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Also, unarmored X (as well as Alia) has the uncanny ability to charge and shoot at the same time, which can actually prove to be more useful than his armored variations given proper usage. This is extremely helpful in instances where you need heavy firepower, such as the miniboss sections of Booster Forest.
Mash harder. Switch to your index finger if you need to; all those sections in Booster Forest can be beaten with just the regular buster. As for the question at hand... I've always thought of Axl as a shittier Bass. Nothing more, nothing less.
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I haven't played any of the games he's in, so I'll just go with "yeahsurewhynot".
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Mash harder. Switch to your index finger if you need to; all those sections in Booster Forest can be beaten with just the regular buster. As for the question at hand... I've always thought of Axl as a shittier Bass. Nothing more, nothing less.
Well, character-wise they're nothing alike, and in gameplay I actually find Axl to be superior. It's mainly MM10 that makes me feel that way, though. Rapid-fire characters just suck in mid-air; more so as the enemies get smaller. Axl's hover, and the fact that his firing direction is semi-analogue, work around that very well.
Actually both X and Axl can get 8 shots off on a boss without stopping.
Huh. Never bothered to try that. I guess Inti's games just had me in the mindset that rapid-fire is worthless (yet another hiccup to thank Inafune Rockman for).
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I've seen people say that Axl is a replacement of X, with the exception of his copy-shot and hover ability. But personally I really do like him; he's useful in a lot of stages in X8, and I also like his personality - he kinda breaks up the seriousness of situations, if you know what I mean.
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he kinda breaks up the seriousness of situations, if you know what I mean.
(X and Zero are having a conversation with Botos)
Axl: We're here as Maverick Hunters, to put a stop to your devious plans!
Zero: Thank you, Captain Obvious.
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Well, character-wise they're nothing alike, and in gameplay I actually find Axl to be superior. It's mainly MM10 that makes me feel that way, though. Rapid-fire characters just suck in mid-air; more so as the enemies get smaller. Axl's hover, and the fact that his firing direction is semi-analogue, work around that very well.
I heard Bass got hit quite hard with the nerf bat in 10... Stupid idea IMO. His easy mode faggotry is the reason we all loved playing him in the first place!
Also, giving Bass Gunstar Heroes firing options: god-tier character. Haven't played Axl enough to know if he is actually better than old Bass however. Just his X7 version. So my judgment on the two is even more clouded!
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As I said earlier, I loved the G-Launcher in X7. But otherwise, he's just a watered-down hovering X who stole Trigger's tumble-dodge. X8 is where they actually tried making him unique, at least compared to X and Zero.
I heard Bass got hit quite hard with the nerf bat in 10...
Well, to be fair, Inti hit EVERYONE with the nerf bat in their NES revivals. Rock is back to MM2 mechanics and ProtoMan takes double damage/knockback (plus jumping to block will just never feel natural). Even without double-jumping and half-strength wall-blocked shots, Bass is still pretty awesome. He just demonstrates how new-age mechanics don't always fit seamlessly into old-age level/enemy/screen proportions. That and I wish Inti didn't insist on adding a delay between dash and dash-jumping. Never in any previous MegaMan title was such a lag enforced, and it screwed me up more than once.
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I heard Bass got hit quite hard with the nerf bat in 10... Stupid idea IMO. His easy mode faggotry is the reason we all loved playing him in the first place!
All they did was remove his double jump.
Also, giving Bass Gunstar Heroes firing options: god-tier character. Haven't played Axl enough to know if he is actually better than old Bass however. Just his X7 version. So my judgment on the two is even more clouded!
Axl in X8 works just like Bass in MM&B minus the double jump, and Plus a hover and air dash. (copy shot aside, which works much better than it did in X7)
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I like him but he didnt have much appearances. only X7,X8 and CM. Also as a cameo in Tatsunoko vs capcom ultimate all stars
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All they did was remove his double jump.
I'm pretty sure the dash-jump lag was not part of MM&B.
His shots are also half-strength to compensate for Rock's standard play no longer involving charging, and 10 has no upgrade to compensate either for that or for his inability to shoot through walls (MM&B gave you options for what to improve). He still rocks many socks, though, so long as you stay grounded. ...and you don't mind that he's an obvious Rock edit.
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His shots are also half-strength to compensate for Rock's standard play no longer involving charging, and 10 has no upgrade to compensate either for that or for his inability to shoot through walls (MM&B gave you options for what to improve).
[objection!]
If you expend all of the Treble Boost's energy, you get access to the Mega Buster. It's the same in all aspects, although you can't fire it while dashing.
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I always liked Axl, he's my favorite in the X series with Zero.
I really want a game that would be called "Megaman Axl".
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ZX Advent may as well have been called that, except that it has Biometal.
If you expend all of the Treble Boost's energy, you get access to the Mega Buster. It's the same in all aspects, although you can't fire it while dashing.
Treble Boost is awesome; I would never in my right mind sacrifice it to play as dash-capable Rock (doesn't work as a slide; Bass has no hitbox height reduction).
(http://home.comcast.net/~Anguirus/takethat.gif)
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You don't need to sacrifice it, you simply just don't get near Gospel after he teleports in. The same works for Blues.
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Point taken. However, I do believe rapid-fire to be superior to run-shooting, so it really leaves only a midair advantage.