RockmanPM Forums
Other Things => Gaming => Topic started by: Protodude on December 01, 2008, 06:04:23 AM
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Apparently, Sonic runs too fast: 8D
In the latest IGN Three Red Lights (http://www.indoorheroes.com/article.php?id=57) podcast at the 19:40 mark David Clayman recalls a time when he talked to a member of the Sonic Unleashed team about this very issue...
"I asked one of the developers at TGS, you know I was like, come on everybody just wants Sonic running, like whats up with the werehog? And he was like, well, heres the deal... he runs at this miles per hour, kilometers per hour, and he laid out all of the statistics on how fast this hedgehog goes, and he was like In order to make a game where Sonic is running and everybody enjoys the whole thing we'd have to design this many miles of level, and it was some ungodly number. And he's like and that would be like maybe a three hour game and I was like wow, well that kinda stinks and he's like yeah, so we gotta do this other stuff."
Source (http://www.indoorheroes.com/article.php?id=58)
Seriously...what the [tornado fang]. Considering how short the early Sonic games were, would anybody mind a three hour game? I most certainly don't.
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I wouldn't mind, and the past Sonic games did have replay value, so you would always play over and over just for the enjoyment, or in the Adventure/Advance/Rush games, you'd try and get the better ranks or complete some objectives. o.o;
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I remember someone on NeoGAF bringing up this article. All I have to say is a short 3 - 5 hour Sonic game with classic -- hell tightened Unleashed Day Stage mechanics, tons of replay and a light story would be leaps and bounds greater than anything one could do to artificially extend the game's length.
Besides we all know what bloating tends to do to otherwise solid games (see Twilight Princess). 8D
Also, since it was on my mind and related to this topic, anybody ever realize how easy it is to go back and play through the Genesis Sonics multiple times, seeing the same things over and over again, and yet never get tired of it?
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If it was full price I'm most certainly sure people would rage/ignore it/only rent it, just look at Mirror's Edge.
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If it was full price I'm most certainly sure people would rage/ignore it/only rent it, just look at Mirror's Edge.
Are you kidding me? Everywhere I go there are people talking about or buying this game in droves. Some people are actually upgrading their PCs so they can double dip when the PC version comes out since it takes advantage of some PhyX tech Nvidia's pumping out.
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I remember reading about people not buying it because of length at GAF, maybe they just got over it >_> But still, people WOULD complain.
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Yes, with the price most games are going today (...which is a joke since Genesis and SNES carts were between $54.99 to $69.99, printing amount pending), most people would like meaty games on their consoles. However, a shorter Sonic game like proposed would work best on handhelds, since those games have a much stronger focus on quick pick-up-and-play styles. It's my belief that 2D Sonic in this vein is destined to be on the DS, PSP and their successors. Meanwhile, more chunkier games will keep seeing releases on the consoles. Do note how handheld Sonic has also been better received than console Sonic. This includes the two Rivals games.
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Do note how handheld Sonic has also been better received than console Sonic. This includes the two Rivals games.
Collecting cards is fun and has value~
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Seriously, when have games ever been cheap? I mean, that's why I laugh when anyone says that $10 for MM9 is somehow a rip-off. That makes NO sense to me at all.
Don't get me wrong. I grew to really like the Werehog levels. But, will I replay them over the Day levels? Never. The primary appeal of Unleashed is the Day stages, and what a glorious, fun, way past cool job they did on them. I mean, if the whole 3-Hour Game thing is a factor...then can't they just simply add triple the speed levels, or something like that? I know I'd have no issue with that. Also, perhaps have like 5 bonus levels designed solely for the use of Super Sonic. Also, why not Playable Tails either? I don't know, I think I'd play the game over and over again if just some of these factors were added in.
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If you're willing to wait two years for every hour of gameplay, then sure.
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Then here's another idea that will go unused. Remember in the olden days when the then not so shitty characters could play the same levels as Sonic, but would explore it differently? Why not use that mechanic again? Instead of shoehorning them in mid Sonic play through though, make it like Sonic Advance 1 where you choose your character from the start and go through the levels doing what the character you chose does best. (Sonic = speedy platforming; Tails = aerial exploration; Knuckles = mowing down areas and blazing new trails; Amy = "Challenge mode", no Spin Dash,
Final Destination)
This done right is the next step [after Unleashed and it's godly day stages] toward a grand game SEGA.
If you're willing to wait two years for every hour of gameplay, then sure.
I waited 5 years after Sonic 3 + Knuckles for Sonic Adventure. This is like a no-brainer if the quality is on par with a possible Sonic The Hedgehog 4. XD
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I waited 5 years after Sonic 3 + Knuckles for Sonic Adventure. This is like a no-brainer if the quality is on par with a Sonic the Hedgehog 4. XD
I believe she meant in terms of loading time.
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I just wanna have Sonic run through loops, pick up rings, and fight a baddie at the end of Act 2.
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Seriously, when have games ever been cheap? I mean, that's why I laugh when anyone says that $10 for MM9 is somehow a rip-off. That makes NO sense to me at all.
Don't get me wrong. I grew to really like the Werehog levels. But, will I replay them over the Day levels? Never. The primary appeal of Unleashed is the Day stages, and what a glorious, fun, way past cool job they did on them. I mean, if the whole 3-Hour Game thing is a factor...then can't they just simply add triple the speed levels, or something like that? I know I'd have no issue with that. Also, perhaps have like 5 bonus levels designed solely for the use of Super Sonic. Also, why not Playable Tails either? I don't know, I think I'd play the game over and over again if just some of these factors were added in.
On the Werehog, he's a bit dull at first, but as you level up his Combat rank, unlocking more combos and moves, and as the levels progress becoming more and more challenging (Empire City is quite a notorious one), he'll begin to shine. Half the fun is when you're a godless killing machine and doing cartwheels to savage every enemy around you. It's similar to how you can't really do much with Dante in Devil May Cry until you begin to upgrade his weapons and, in later games, his styles.
Also, I think the person was thinking in terms of SOnic Unleashed speed level style. Naturally, on a 2D scale, they could probably easily do it, but because of how Unleashed is like, they had to do elaborate planning of the levels. Pretty much, they had to design whole cities, landmasses, ruins, jungles, deserts, canyons, and Eggmanland and then fit levels into them. Any artist or game designer will tell you that is no easy feat, especially when you have to be thinking with Sonic's speed in mind.
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I believe she meant in terms of loading time.
Good God, I lol'd. XD
I had a gif in mind for this response, but Google search fails me now.
Posted on: December 01, 2008, 12:27:34 AM
Also, I think the person was thinking in terms of SOnic Unleashed speed level style. Naturally, on a 2D scale, they could probably easily do it, but because of how Unleashed is like, they had to do elaborate planning of the levels. Pretty much, they had to design whole cities, landmasses, ruins, jungles, deserts, canyons, and Eggmanland and then fit levels into them. Any artist or game designer will tell you that is no easy feat, especially when you have to be thinking with Sonic's speed in mind.
You know, I never really thought of this, but could this also be a reason as to why this game needed inspiration from real life locales instead of trying to pull off the surrealistic "checkerboard chic" of the Genesis games?
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That's actually a pretty interesting question, I too would like to know.
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Also, I think the person was thinking in terms of SOnic Unleashed speed level style. Naturally, on a 2D scale, they could probably easily do it, but because of how Unleashed is like, they had to do elaborate planning of the levels. Pretty much, they had to design whole cities, landmasses, ruins, jungles, deserts, canyons, and Eggmanland and then fit levels into them. Any artist or game designer will tell you that is no easy feat, especially when you have to be thinking with Sonic's speed in mind.
That's why I appreciate the Day time levels so much. I mean, taking a moment to actually look at the level designs and the backgrounds on YouTube vids and when I was playing it, they truly are fantastic. I think it could be done through, with more locals in mind. I mean, a Las Vegas level would've been full of hot sex. Or, if anything, perhaps take a cue from their previous games and make a Unleashed Green Hill Zone level or something like that. Again, I'd still love another Death Egg level myself. XD
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[...]Or, if anything, perhaps take a cue from their previous games and make a Unleashed Green Hill Zone level or something like that. Again, I'd still love another Death Egg level myself. XD
See my previous question for half of the answer. It would seem that creating those kinds of levels from scratch and with all of Sonic's "Game Physics" in mind, it'd be one hell of a feat to pull off correctly. Besides, Eggmanland (Robuttnikland for the super sensitive 8D) was just a large Deathegg on land for the most part.
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Yeah I know. Deathegg is still better. XD
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I would prolly play more Sonic games if it was all about the speed. That's what I loved about the classic Sonic games. Hell, I mostly played the Time Trials in two-player mode over and over and over. That's what I loved about the game; just being able to blast through the level at breakneck speed.
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I just think, just by using the 2-D aspect of the Day time Unleashed levels, what they could do with a game concept like Sonic CD.
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Oh man, that would be godly. Sonic CD was great.
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I just think, just by using the 2-D aspect of the Day time Unleashed levels, what they could do with a game concept like Sonic CD.
Stop digging up old wounds man. I did this [asked that same question for S3+K] on another forum. Everyone cried because they knew it was beautiful and right, but would never happen. XD
Unless the fan community REALLY gets bored discovers a way to rip out and code for Blast Processing 3.0 a.k.a. the Hedgehog Engine.
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And he's like and that would be like maybe a three hour game and I was like wow, well that kinda stinks and he's like yeah, so we gotta do this other stuff.
What I find funny about this part right here is the idea of adding stuff to make the game longer. What I'd have asked him after that is, in his opinion, which type of game do you think would sell more copies?
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Indeed. The classic Sonic gamers would be wetting themselves to get a copy of an all-speed 3-hr game.
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What I find funny about this part right here is the idea of adding stuff to make the game longer. What I'd have asked him after that is, in his opinion, which type of game do you think would sell more copies?
This goes without saying. I'm personally beginning to hate the whole "more bang for your buck" mentality that the industry seems to cling to because it feels like now whenever they have a concept that they don't think will do well on it's own, they'll do more to "throw together" anything that might have some redeeming alone but drag down the quality or appeal as a whole. If they could work with one golden concept and build off of it instead of going 100 different directions, I'm sure the public would respond to it well enough.
It's not their fault though, they have to make sure that their game turns even, but that only starts this vicious cycle back up again. :\
It's also the reason why the platformer as a genre is in so much danger lately.
Indeed. The classic Sonic gamers would be wetting themselves to get a copy of an all-speed 3-hr game.
Day. One. XD
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In PB's Opinion, a 3-Hour Day Stage Unleashed Game would sell more copies that the current one. I'm not sure, but I think they could add in the removed stages from the PS2 and Wii version if they took out all the Night stages.
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They don't need to. Remember, the 360 uses the same type of disc as the PS2 and Wii. Some think Mazuri Day and all of Empire City were cut out due to DiMPS being rushed, given the general oblong nature of the game compared to its HD brothers.
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I still find the whole Werehog concept utterly retarded. Like published fanon from the Archie series thrown in a game and taken to a whole new facepalming level.
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They don't need to. Remember, the 360 uses the same type of disc as the PS2 and Wii. Some think Mazuri Day and all of Empire City were cut out due to DiMPS being rushed, given the general oblong nature of the game compared to its HD brothers.
Hmmm, well that just sucks then! XD
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Sad, but this is one of the only times where the Wii loses out imo. Ah well, more Day Stage goodness please Sonic Team. Going up from this point isn't a hard task especially since the Werehog is an Unleashed only mechanic.
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Story wise, it's not coming back. Gameplay wise?
...Well, it'd be nice to make Knuckles awesome again with his own unique moveset. Granted, some people think Knuckles playing like Fighter Kirby would be a lot more awesome.
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Sad, but this is one of the only times where the Wii loses out imo. Ah well, more Day Stage goodness please Sonic Team. Going up from this point isn't a hard task especially since the Werehog is an Unleashed only mechanic.
Wait until it finds its way into the comic series...
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Granted, some people think Knuckles playing like Fighter Kirby would be a lot more awesome.
I never thought of this, but now I do. And I want. XD
Also, Ristar 2. :3
Posted on: December 01, 2008, 01:18:10 AM
Wait until it finds its way into the comic series...
Didn't it already have like a short adaptation in a comic series recently? It was supposed to be a promotion for the game.
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Seeing as how I haven't read the comic in a long time since Ken Penders started taking over the writing duties... Though, I think at one point, in some earlier issue, Sonic did become a werehog. It is very, very likely, knowing how that comic was.
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the more you want it, the more Sega won't listen to you.
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Seeing as how I haven't read the comic in a long time since Ken Penders started taking over the writing duties... Though, I think at one point, in some earlier issue, Sonic did become a werehog.
Nope, never did. Then again, When he met Zonic in the "Sideways Zone" there many different version of Sonic on the screens. Maybe werehog was one of them and thats "were" Sega got him.
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Seriously...what the [tornado fang]. Considering how short the early Sonic games were, would anybody mind a three hour game? I most certainly don't.
I sure wouldn't. Hell, half the games this community revolves around are easily cleared in under 3 hours. If it's fun to play, it's fun to replay. Just look at Sonic Rush.
For that matter, applying elements from the S3&K and Advanced formulas to a 3D game would work wonders. Go ahead, give us a 3 hour game, and give us 3 or 4 characters to play through it as. With different abilities, but not so different as to require entirely new stages, though a select few branching paths might not be a bad idea. Could also take a page out of Adventure's book and change around a few bosses (final in particular) for each character.
I think the character selection is what's killing them, and in a way, the were-hog is just as guilty as the likes of Silver, or Tails' freaking mecha. In Rush, Blaze kind of fails to differentiate herself from Sonic in terms of her abilities. She has different effects, but besides hovering, yields largely the same results. This likewise applies between the different teams in Heroes. But in most other games we have the opposite problem, the characters are so far removed from Sonic that they no longer fit the same formula. This worked to some extent in Adventure, but they overdosed afterwards and people got tired of it.
Besides we all know what bloating tends to do to otherwise solid games (see Twilight Princess). 8D
Since when is Twilight Princess bloated? At least it didn't plague us with a mundane Triforce hunt that the game developers themselves apologized for.
I still find the whole Werehog concept utterly retarded. Like published fanon from the Archie series thrown in a game and taken to a whole new facepalming level.
I find it retarded for a reason irrelevant to gameplay. We already have a strong, cumbersome, stretchy Sonic character, his name is Chaos. So what the heck do we need the were-hog for?
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Plot device with Dark Gaia.
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Once again, lemme pull my GAF post:
Says who?! Remember, the early Sonic games gave you bonuses for beating stages in under 30 seconds! They don't have to be 5 minute epics, in fact, the levels are worse that way! Yes, Sonic games are brief, but it was their replay value that made them what they were! You actually WANTED to go back to Green Hill Zone and try to beat your old time by exploring for new routes.
I would have also accepted the answer, "Well, another key aspect to the old Sonic games was tried-and-true platforming, see Marble Zone, Chemical Plant Zone, Carnival Night Zone, and Quartz Quadrant Zone."
Look back at the Genesis games; the stages were only long if you lacked moderate skill. There were 2 or 3 routes through the same distance, and I'm hoping that's something that has been done in Unleashed.
There is no reason, no need, for the Werehog. Not even for the sake of platforming, which has been handled very well by the player provided there was plenty of visibility and the Gimmicks weren't vague (Sonic Rush, Sonic Heroes, I'm looking you square in the face).
I understand that creating long stages in 3D isn't financially responsible. Time to go to 2D.
Also, play the Genesis games, and you'll notice something:
There's no way Sonic is maintaining the insane amounts of speed that he's doing in Unleashed.
The Genesis games are snail's pace compared to this game, and I think if the level maps were put side-by-side, it'd definitely show. Which is better? I'd say Genesis, considering that it also allowed careful manipulation of Sonic's jumps for tricky platforming.
And now, let me add to it:
Remember how Sonic CD unlocked secrets by the Time Attack? Remove Ranks, make the goals a little more manageable so that the majority of people could have these bonuses, and ta-da.
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...Well, it'd be nice to make Knuckles awesome again with his own unique moveset. Granted, some people think Knuckles playing like Fighter Kirby would be a lot more awesome.
Epic want :D
I haven't played Unleashed, but it sounds like it's by far the best Sonic game to come out since the end of the Adventure series (as far as the Console series is concerned). I was planning on renting it for the 360 and then go from there. I AM a bit sketchy about it, since most people raved about Chronicles while I utterly HATE that game, so I'm really going to watch out for whatever on Unleashed.
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Just know the people who raved about Chronicles were either really stupid Sonic fans (there are the rare few smart ones!) or BioWare fanboys who love nothing but their D in their mouth. Most of the people I saw who bought the game said they bought it just because BioWare made it.
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Just know the people who raved about Chronicles were either really stupid Sonic fans (there are the rare few smart ones!) or BioWare fanboys who love nothing but their D in their mouth.
LoL, DAMN! :V
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Also, play the Genesis games, and you'll notice something:
There's no way Sonic is maintaining the insane amounts of speed that he's doing in Unleashed.
The Genesis games are snail's pace compared to this game, and I think if the level maps were put side-by-side, it'd definitely show. Which is better? I'd say Genesis, considering that it also allowed careful manipulation of Sonic's jumps for tricky platforming.
This is very true. Blazing through at breakneck speeds is always fun, but Sonic's seen his fair share of well made platforming jumps as well, and that's something a lot of people forget. That's yet another aspect that I feel the Adventures utilized successfully while later games lost it.
For an ideal example of a mix between the two, we can look at my favorite SA2 stage, Final Rush. Rails are often thought of as a "game plays itself" thing, but they are utilized here outstandingly well, with lots of timed and precision jumps and alternate paths. In addition there are quite a few platform-jumping segments, tricky to time/position at first but easily blazed through after you learn the layout. Multiple paths abound, and there are some nice shortcut opportunities. Pulling that last-second jump on the vertical rail is satisfying indeed. The level is platforming gold.
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LoL, DAMN! :V
It's the truth. I played this game to see if all the hype it was getting was justified. What I got was a sloppy, horribly done RPG with an awful battle system, bad sound effects and music (with quite a few tracks being ripped off the Internet apparently... more on that later,) all constricting an otherwise brilliant but poorly utilized dialog tree. I swear, I loved the dialog, but I hated how it didn't branch in Mass Effect style. It'd be nice if the story changed as you played depending on your choices but as it stood, it barely did that. It only added things as you got more characters, like Omega.
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Earlier today, my brother and I were discussing what made the classic Sonic games great, and it was the combination of platforming and speed. Then, we watched some YouTube videos of Sonic Xtreme levels. Oh. My. God. GORGEOUS. The perfect combination of 3D and 2D, with speed and platforming. And a weird fish-eye lens. Then, my brother read something about the Sonic Unleashed Daytime levels being a throwback to the Sonic Xtreme engine, and decided that's what makes the Daytime levels rule.
Now all we need is for Sega to just release Sonic Xtreme (if I recall, it was never released...), or just make more Sonic games with the same or similar engine. And no Werehog. But that would only happen in a utopia, and utopias don't exist, so we'll never see that, ever. So, instead we're gonna see what we can do with that BlitzBasic Sonic game engine...
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Now all we need is for Sega to just release Sonic Xtreme (if I recall, it was never released...)
yeah it got cancelled and it basically became Sonic 3D Blast ^^;
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No. 3D Blast was developed by Traveller's Tales in Britain. Sonic Xtreme was developed by Sega Technical Institute as the flagship title for the series on the Saturn. However, it was marred with problems due to deadlines, constant changing of ideas and quite a bit of resistance from Sega of Japan. The team wanted to use the NiGHTS engine. However, Yuji Naka threw a fit and basically told them to [acid burst] off, meaning they had to code a new one up by themselves. It got abysmal reviews at E3 1996 before ultimately being canned. Sonic 3D Blast, meanwhile, was set to be Genesis only. However, since it was pretty apparent that Sonic wouldn't have a flagship title on the Saturn, it was ported over and enhanced with different CD quality music, a new Special Stage (considered to be the spiritual son of Sonic 2's stages), and some new special effects, like fog and rain in Rusty Ruin.
tl;dr: Sonic Xtreme was canned because it was crap. There's an old tech demo leaked by AssemblerGames floating around for those that want to give it a shot. It looked nice on paper, but it played horribly.
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Hrm, perhaps if the controls were messed with a bit. From what I saw, it looked nice. At least full sprite sheets are floating around that I can use to finish off that Quickman sprite sheet I had started on a few years back...
Sonic 3D Blast was... meh. It just lacked that Sonic feel.
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You know what I find funny thinking about Sonic in 3D? How is it that other SEGA franchises & developed games (Jet Set Radio / Jet Set Radio Future, Sonic R, F-Zero GX*) and a few other games (Trackmania, Mirror's Edge & Super Mario Galaxy* for example) have managed to incorporate elements of what made Sonic so great in 2D and left a positive mark on many gamers minds? The truth is that it isn't engines, limitations or anything technical really. It's all about Sonic Team being too lazy to try and be more creative when it comes to truly translating Sonic into 3D. Things look like they are shifting for the better (not necessarily the best) though with the new Unleashed team and the Hedgehog Engine, but when you hear things like "Sonic is all about speed" only to hear later that games can't fully consist of that sense of speed because of the limitations involving Sonic moving so fast, you have to wonder why no one's re-evaluating things as a whole with the franchise. XD
Also fun fact: Sonic Unleashed shares a lot more in common with Sonic R & the Saturn 3D Blast special stage design due to the fact that the programmers in charge of both of those games worked with Yoshihisa Hashimoto (big guy behind Unleashed and a programmer for elements of the Sonic Adventure games) to create the game.
*Italicized for delicious Nintendo does what SEGA didn't irony. 8D
Anyone who thinks I don't have a part of myself reserved for SEGA, I bequeath to them, a boot to the head.
Also, I demand that everyone here play through the demo for Sonic eXtended Genesis (XG) (http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_XG) just because it's relevant to any Sonic fan's interests. While you do his, compare the amount of ideas there to some of those found in recent games. You can be sure that the difference in caliber is nothing short of "wow"-inducing. This isn't to compare 2D to 3D by the way, it's to show he vast difference in ideas and direction that the newer games and older style have.
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Remember, at the time people were asking for speed-based gameplay, we had just gotten done with Sonic Adventure 1 (which had some okay levels) and Sonic Adventure 2 (which was both glitchy and slow, saddling the player with more Emerald hunting and mech-shooting).
After that, games were a mixed bag, attempting to find what the players wanted. Sonic Advance 1 was balanced, 2 was almost all speed, 3 was heavy on the platforming. At that point, Sonic Rush and Heroes were made, and they might've been fine, except for gimmicky extra characters and poor stage construction marred with obscene, unprecedented amounts of open-bottom design.
Desperate to do something to boost their reputation, they poll the fans. The result? Shadow the Hedgehog. Again, execution on a brand new guns-n-ammo system was poor on top of a very rushed scenery and awful plot scheme. When that failed, they teased and promoted a game that would go back to being Sonic, but ultimately didn't and was once again poorly executed.
Now, it's the transition phase. Now the teams are flustered and frustrated. Now a mass of confusing input that can't be sorted out unless the fans were somehow in on the development process drives performance-minded managers to frustration, and now the teams are just doing what they want. They're a lower quality Square-Enix, now. You didn't want a Werehog? Too bad. You didn't want happy fun time storybook land? Too bad.
2 ways to go from here:
1) The death of the company resulting from poor sales combined with an ailing economy and rampant piracy,
or
2) Eliminate polled consumer input, and undertake an overhauling of basic principles to more closely match the games that are respected and sold well (S1, S2, S3&K, SAdve1, SAdva1). This may require remaking Sonic 2 or Sonic 3 & Knuckles so that the newer employees understand how to design the game correctly.
I can't say Sonic Unleashed was absolutely a step in the right direction, but compared to what they've been doing, it is.
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I still stand by my want for 2.5D remakes of Sonic 1-3 (& Knuckles) for the DS or PSP. Maybe a choice between "classic" and "arranged" modes, classic being the original and arranged being the remake. O^O
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Remember, at the time people were asking for speed-based gameplay, we had just gotten done with Sonic Adventure 1 (which had some okay levels) and Sonic Adventure 2 (which was both glitchy and slow, saddling the player with more Emerald hunting and mech-shooting).
...
2) Eliminate polled consumer input, and undertake an overhauling of basic principles to more closely match the games that are respected and sold well (S1, S2, S3&K, SAdve1, SAdva1). This may require remaking Sonic 2 or Sonic 3 & Knuckles so that the newer employees understand how to design the game correctly.
May I just say that I resent the attitude against Sonic Adventure 2. Which was, incidentally, at time of release widely respected as the masterpiece it was, and then later torn into once it was ported to GCN.
Even if the game is a "quality over quantity" thing, the stage and boss designs are still very well done, far better than SA1. SA1 just delivered more of it. And SA2 is *MUCH* less glitchy than SA1, in which I have had several fall-through-the-floor incidents as well as the craptacular physics and control response for standing on an incline. Really, Tails was their only misstep in SA2, but unfortunately he occupies a lot of the Hero Story game time.
And personally I didn't think much of Advance. It was decent, but not exceptional. I don't know many players who would take it over Rush, and I certainly wouldn't.
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a friend of mine said to me that she won't buy SU she played a day stage and told me its too fast
i personally think its pretty good and i would like to see more sonic games with the hedgehogengine
and i would definitly buy a 3h Sonic gamewith nothingbut speed.
i wonder if a remake of S3K with the Hedgehog engine would work. But it could be awesome
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Dear Sega:
Don't you dare touch Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Gaming greatness like that should never be tampered with. Leave it as a piece to look back to. Work from it, don't work on top of it. The same goes for 1, 2, and CD.
Sincerely,
A Real Sonic Fan
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;__;
and just a normal remake ?
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;__;
and just a normal remake ?
See Sonic 1 Genesis on GBA. X(
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See Sonic 1 Genesis on GBA. X(
BURN IT WITH FIRE!!! >BD
*goes to find her review of it*
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Dear Sega:
Don't you dare touch Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Gaming greatness like that should never be tampered with. Leave it as a piece to look back to. Work from it, don't work on top of it. The same goes for 1, 2, and CD.
Sincerely,
A Real Sonic Fan
QFT!
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BURN IT WITH FIRE!!! >BD
*goes to find her review of it*
And let us not forget that a lone hacker one-upped them.
http://www.sonicretro.org/2008/08/30/sonic-1-gba-port-by-stealth-revealed/
Yeah, I can see why one wouldn't be confident in Sega's remake abilities after that mess.
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And let us not forget that a lone hacker one-upped them.
http://www.sonicretro.org/2008/08/30/sonic-1-gba-port-by-stealth-revealed/
Yeah, I can see why one wouldn't be confident in Sega's remake abilities after that mess.
And did Dimps have anything to do with the shittastic port? I'd trust Dimps more than I do the Sonic Team itself.
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May I just say that I resent the attitude against Sonic Adventure 2. Which was, incidentally, at time of release widely respected as the masterpiece it was, and then later torn into once it was ported to GCN.
Even if the game is a "quality over quantity" thing, the stage and boss designs are still very well done, far better than SA1. SA1 just delivered more of it. And SA2 is *MUCH* less glitchy than SA1, in which I have had several fall-through-the-floor incidents as well as the craptacular physics and control response for standing on an incline. Really, Tails was their only misstep in SA2, but unfortunately he occupies a lot of the Hero Story game time.
And personally I didn't think much of Advance. It was decent, but not exceptional. I don't know many players who would take it over Rush, and I certainly wouldn't.
And I say Sonic Adventure 2 still had its ups and downs. The only reason it wasn't utterly trashed when it came out is because Sonic Adventure 1 was still strong on everyone's minds and there weren't 2 games or so a year.
Sonic Adventure 1 did have its share of glitches, to be fair. I specifically HATE Final Egg's propellor lifts, not to mention the "autorun" segments in Windy Valley and Speed Highway that hindered any exploration or creativity on the part of the player, in addition to just flat out being poorly tested. However, this does not excuse Sonic Adventure 2. While City Escape and Metal Harbor did improve on the "autorun", the game was 1/4 speed, 3/4 Werehog. The stages that weren't Sonic and Shadow were so boring it made you want to cry. Then, when you finally did get to a speed stage, either a rail or a glitch wind up killing you with you still trying to figure out what you did wrong (when you didn't; Shadow's Final Chase is a good example of this). Apparently, Sonic Team was VERY new to this "ingenious" Rails gimmick of theirs. Sonic's Final Rush stage is okay until you get to the gravity puzzle. At this point, it's frustration city. On top of that, the powerups were numerous and fairly useless as compared to their SA1 counterparts, then boss battles were as mind-numbingly easy as ever (not counting the character vs. character battles of SA1).
Advance was basic. Rush, though it had some nice ideas, had a perfect collection of all the things that makes people angry; ambiguously designed puzzles, open-bottom levels, more rail BS, and since when did enemies have LIFEBARS and battle rooms?
Dear Sega:
Don't you dare touch Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Gaming greatness like that should never be tampered with. Leave it as a piece to look back to. Work from it, don't work on top of it. The same goes for 1, 2, and CD.
Sincerely,
A Real Sonic Fan
I'm assuming they don't screw it up like Sonic Genesis. And it can be done; look at Kirby Superstar Ultra. In minor ways, it actually improved upon the original game while still maintaining proper aspect ratios, puzzle spacing, etc. Revenge of the King, while not impossibly hard, did force the player to think one step ahead or fall prey to the vulnerabilities of the provided powers matched up against a bevy of long-lasting enemies (Suplex and Parasol are king in this game).
If these new guys at Sonic Team don't work their way backwards, they're never going to figure out how it's all supposed to mesh.
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Hrm, perhaps if the controls were messed with a bit. From what I saw, it looked nice. At least full sprite sheets are floating around that I can use to finish off that Quickman sprite sheet I had started on a few years back...
Sonic 3D Blast was... meh. It just lacked that Sonic feel.
[tornado fang] yeah Sonic Xtreme. I love the whole trippy mario Galaxy feel it has no? the music that playes is so sweet, have it on my MP3 player.
BTW,-Wallotext-
tl;dr: Sonic Xtreme was canned because it was crap. There's an old tech demo leaked by AssemblerGames floating around for those that want to give it a shot. It looked nice on paper, but it played horribly.
does you know any links?
also, whats awesome is that at one point the team was actually locked in the room for nights on end, with food brought to them so they could get something acomplished. also, wasnt the whole problem the boss engine? the fact that they wanted something different for the boss engine?
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Advance was basic. Rush, though it had some nice ideas, had a perfect collection of all the things that makes people angry; ambiguously designed puzzles, open-bottom levels, more rail BS, and since when did enemies have LIFEBARS and battle rooms?
I didn't really see much a problem with Rush, barring those open-bottom levels; those are annoying. I didn't see a problem with the lifebars, heck, we all know Robotnik generally suffers from 8-hit syndrome. I guess I am a little surprised that the final boss' health didn't exceed 8 points; in a lot of the older games, as well as Sonic Advance, final bosses generally had over 8 points of health.
As far as puzzles go, I don't really see much of a problem there either. If any puzzle gave me problems, those rotating cylinders in Carnival Night Zone did.
Battle rooms weren't really a problem to me either; Sonic Rush's boss system was pretty original, and it was nice to see something different for a change.
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I didn't really see much a problem with Rush, barring those open-bottom levels; those are annoying. I didn't see a problem with the lifebars, heck, we all know Robotnik generally suffers from 8-hit syndrome. I guess I am a little surprised that the final boss' health didn't exceed 8 points; in a lot of the older games, as well as Sonic Advance, final bosses generally had over 8 points of health.
As far as puzzles go, I don't really see much of a problem there either. If any puzzle gave me problems, those rotating cylinders in Carnival Night Zone did.
Battle rooms weren't really a problem to me either; Sonic Rush's boss system was pretty original, and it was nice to see something different for a change.
Perhaps I should clarify:
I'm not talking about Boss Battles. Those, actually, weren't that bad, and made you think in moderate amounts. And yes, Robotnik's due to have so many hits.
I'm talking about when you'd be speeding along, and suddenly, you're enclosed in a room or trapped on a raft, and enemies are headed your way. Not hard, but there's nothing better at killing the game's pace than that. And again, enemies, regular enemies, with lifebars.
If you remember how collision damage works in principle, it's not hard to see where a Sonic game can really suffer.
Sonic "collides" with his enemy to damage them.
If they're still around, Sonic can't keep moving.
Seems basic, but recall Metropolis Zone in Sonic the Hedgehog 2. YEAH. THAT. Only it taunts you even more because you actually are damaging the enemy, but the game just, because it can, says you need to do it again.
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Oh, I see what you're talking about now. The desert/ruins stage comes to mind, especially when you have to dodge those annoying rocks as well. Not to mention those Sonic Heroes-style enemies that take 3 hits to kill. Considering that Rush's style is high speed action, it really cripples the gameplay.
Sonic isn't the kind of game where you sit on a raft and kill enemies, especially when you bring Sonic's bad traction into play. I always hated those segments that involved you carefully jumping across tiny platforms, because Sonic's control can be very slippery at times.
The stages that weren't Sonic and Shadow were so boring it made you want to cry.
I also agree with you here as well. I actually preferred the story system of SA1 because of this. I could simply play as Sonic w/o worrying about being smacked in the face with a Knuckles level. Plus, playing as Tails was much more fun in SA1, SEGA should leave the shooting to Gamma (I actually enjoyed his stages). I also wish Knuckles didn't get relegated to treasure hunting, because it'd be nice to play an action stage where you could simply go for a goal ring, etc.
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Plus, playing as Tails was much more fun in SA1
Seconded like there's no tomorrow. Tails has always been fun to play as; I don't even mind being Tails as 2P in co-op plays, even if I can't always see myself.
I hated that I was limited to "Racing Sonic/Eggman" though. Look at him; Tails was made for exploring (no comments from the Palcomix/furry crowd).
...which reminds me, where was THAT feature in Sonic Rush/Adventure? The DS is good at that, y'know, especially in Wi-Fi.
Missed opportunity.
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The stages that weren't Sonic and Shadow were so boring it made you want to cry.
i disagree. SA2's real strength is its replayability. after beating the stories, you should be compelled to get A ranks, and then try to beat that score and/or time. Tails' and Eggman's stages were made for high score nuts, and they aren't all that slow, either. though Tails should never have been put in a mech in the first place. Cosmic Wall is the quintessential example of this. once you know more of the hiding spots, and get past Mad Space's horrible gravity, Knux and Rouge ain't terrible to play either.
I'm assuming they don't screw it up like Sonic Genesis. And it can be done; look at Kirby Superstar Ultra. In minor ways, it actually improved upon the original game while still maintaining proper aspect ratios, puzzle spacing, etc. Revenge of the King, while not impossibly hard, did force the player to think one step ahead or fall prey to the vulnerabilities of the provided powers matched up against a bevy of long-lasting enemies (Suplex and Parasol are king in this game).
If these new guys at Sonic Team don't work their way backwards, they're never going to figure out how it's all supposed to mesh.
Sega != HAL
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i disagree. SA2's real strength is its replayability. after beating the stories, you should be compelled to get A ranks, and then try to beat that score and/or time. Tails' and Eggman's stages were made for high score nuts, and they aren't all that slow, either. though Tails should never have been put in a mech in the first place. Cosmic Wall is the quintessential example of this. once you know more of the hiding spots, and get past Mad Space's horrible gravity, Knux and Rouge ain't terrible to play either.
Sega != HAL
The Chao races should be completely optional, and Green Hill Zone remade is not enough of an incentive to nitpick perform at goals the player might not even really want to do, especially when it requires playing a stage...what was it...6 times? That's minimum. That's IF you can do whatever they tell you to the first time.
Actually, those Meteor stages were really fun. Super Mario Galaxy before it happened, I say (good thing it was Knuckles and Rouge, though; Sonic and Shadow move too fast for that mechanic to be enjoyable).
...okay, true, but I still say that since the stage layout and enemy placement is already done for the new programmers and directing team, it shouldn't be too much of a stretch.
...yes, I know, Sonic Genesis.
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I hated that I was limited to "Racing Sonic/Eggman" though.
...which reminds me, where was THAT feature in Sonic Rush/Adventure? The DS is good at that, y'know, especially in Wi-Fi.
Missed opportunity.
Yeah, it would've been cool it you could actually have the ability to roam freely w/o the threat of Sonic/Eggman. Having the co-op feature in Sonic Rush would've been epic. Doing it with Cream/Blaze would've been cool in it's own right. I do find it interesting that that feature was in SA1 in the first place; it's pretty hard to keep up, but still cool regardless. Of course, KSS/KSSU/KDL3's co-op blows Sonic's out of the water entirely...
SA2's real strength is its replayability. after beating the stories, you should be compelled to get A ranks, and then try to beat that score and/or time. Tails' and Eggman's stages were made for high score nuts, and they aren't all that slow, either. though Tails should never have been put in a mech in the first place. Cosmic Wall is the quintessential example of this. once you know more of the hiding spots, and get past Mad Space's horrible gravity, Knux and Rouge ain't terrible to play either.
They weren't really horrible to play, but in story mode, it's rather irritating to have to switch characters on and off like that. A-Ranks were nice, although I found SADX's mission mode quite entertaining.
The Chao races should be completely optional, and Green Hill Zone remade is not enough of an incentive to nitpick perform at goals the player might not even really want to do, especially when it requires playing a stage...what was it...6 times? That's minimum. That's IF you can do whatever they tell you to the first time.
The Chao system definitely needs to return, although the emblems should be optional. I never did unlock GHZ, partially due to my memory card's death. The only think I got all A-Ranks on were Sonic's missions, and you simply get those broken 2P costumes.
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*goes to find her review of it*
I found it...
Sonic Genesis (GBA)
OK, I am very offended by this!!
It turns out Sega/Sonic Team gave the rights of re-releasing this sacred gem to someone with inexperience on proper optimized game control. Why they didn't just stick with a simple port of the original game and just adding extra features from there is beyond me... Someone out there somewhere could have made something a hell of a lot more accurate. Or they could have just done with sticking Sonic 1 levels in Sonic Advance. Sonic Jam had a simple port with the Spin Dash added, and a fun little Time Attack mode to accompany it. That was pretty neat. The game in Sonic Mega Collection was the original ROM, but they could have simply used that one for the GBA if they so had the time for it. Speaking of features, I see no reason of even having a Anniversary Mode in there if it doesn't bring you anything new worth playing for.
The music is not even the original Mega Drive music resampled for the GBA. No, it's downgraded MIDI samples borrowed from the internet. The only decent thing this game has is the porting of the stages, but that alone doesn't bring our Sonic 1 any justice. The Special Stage is practically uncontrollable as well, and it feels like the surroundings are sucking Sonic into their grasps, not letting him do any significant moves, like breaking through to get the Chaos Emerald. Heck, it even says Presented by Sega, created by Sonic Team... And the original ending sequence was poorly duplicated, including only the names of the original team.
If a port of Sonic 1 doesn't even let you get under 30 seconds on Green Hill Zone Act 1, it's not worth playing. >w<
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oh i hate Chao. i got tired of those little shits real quick. time i want back desperately. i copied a GameSharked-save file to get Green Hill.
the other thing with remaking the Genesis games is that the originals have already been ported to every video game medium already, and are still being put into compilations. there's no need to do anything with them. you know, like how it was completely unnecessary to remake FFIV on DS.
CD doesn't apply to this situation, yes, but i know plenty of people would raid Sega if they altered anything in that game.
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Meh, the Chao. When my brother let me play around with SA2 (I think), he specifically said to have fun abusing the Chao. And abuse it I did. Drop-kicked that bugger off a cliff and made it cry.
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oh i hate Chao. i got tired of those little shits real quick. time i want back desperately. i copied a GameSharked-save file to get Green Hill.
the other thing with remaking the Genesis games is that the originals have already been ported to every video game medium already, and are still being put into compilations. there's no need to do anything with them. you know, like how it was completely unnecessary to remake everything Square has shat out in the past 20+ years.
CD doesn't apply to this situation, yes, but i know plenty of people would raid Sega if they altered anything in that game.
fixd~
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fixd~
I like this fix. XD
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Me too.
Hrm, y'know the Chao in Sonic Advance? I wanted to drop its TV into the pond then put the Chao in it to watch it fry. I was so damn sadistic with those defenseless lil buggers. Kicked 'em, threw 'em, dropped 'em off cliffs... I think it was the Chao and overall change from 2-D goodness to 3-D meh that drove me away from the Sonic series for a while. Though, Sonic Shuffle lured me back. I swear though, that game brought out the absolute WORST in my brother and I. He played as Tails and I played as Knuckles and half the time, we were flipping off the TV and saying "[tornado fang] you, Sonic! [tornado fang] you up the ass like a man!" And yet we loved the game.
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fixd~
most everything Square has done i'd consider enhanced ports. the DS games are true remakes.
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Well, Satoryu basically speaks for me on SA2. The game is replayable like all hell and that's what makes it so much fun. Chao......not so much. I basically sharked infinite rings in Advance and tanked mine up on fruit.
Green Hill's unlock requirements I would have no problem with if not for those blasted "All A" emblems. But I did get Sonic's and Shadow's at least.
And yeah, shooting and searching was done a lot better in SA2 than in any later title, even if as a character I prefer Gamma. I just wish Tails had on-foot stages instead of being a freaking mech pilot, but for Eggman it works great (love that concealed boxing glove, I crack up all the time at that one).
Plus, playing as Tails was much more fun in SA1
Much as I love SA2, can't argue with that one.
I also wish Knuckles didn't get relegated to treasure hunting, because it'd be nice to play an action stage where you could simply go for a goal ring, etc.
SA2 pulled that off even if it was for only one stage. The only issue I'd see is that a gliding/climbing character in such a context can invalidate certain stage designs, SA1's Red Mountain being the perfect example.
Not that there aren't plenty of stages Knuckles can work with, there are. It's just something to be weary or with the layout.
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And yeah, shooting and searching was done a lot better in SA2 than in any later title, even if as a character I prefer Gamma. I just wish Tails had on-foot stages instead of being a freaking mech pilot, but for Eggman it works great (love that concealed boxing glove, I crack up all the time at that one).
Yeah, the mechanicc played out better in SA2, but I would still rather play as Gamma in that regard. I actually liked the fact that you had to rack up combos in order to give you more time in the stages; that's a pretty unique effect.
Personally, I think it hurts Tails' image when he's always in that mech. It's like he's hiding behind it or something. Gone are the days where Tails bravely took shots for Sonic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giquQgZE2Fo) (0:08-0:33).
SA2 pulled that off even if it was for only one stage.
I forgot about Cannon's Core. Even then, Knuckles' power, ability to swim, and glide could give him the ability to go places Sonic can't (i.e. S3&K).
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SA2 pulled that off even if it was for only one stage. The only issue I'd see is that a gliding/climbing character in such a context can invalidate certain stage designs, SA1's Red Mountain being the perfect example.
Not that there aren't plenty of stages Knuckles can work with, there are. It's just something to be weary or with the layout.
Well, if they would take cues from S&K, then they can return Knuckles to a better player role. You got the basic level design, but to access certain places and such, you need to use Knuckles.
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Well, if they would take cues from S&K, then they can return Knuckles to a better player role. You got the basic level design, but to access certain places and such, you need to use Knuckles.
And if Amy's Playable, Amy. she's like sonic, only she doesn't have a spin jump until SA3. Amy's hammer would probably go where both can't after all. :/
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And if Amy's Playable, Amy. she's like sonic, only she doesn't have a spin jump until SA3. Amy's hammer would probably go where both can't after all. :/
Actually, I don't think she even had Spin Jump regularly in SAdv3 unless you chose a specific team combo. IIRC, Sonic didn't even have his Spin Jump if you teamed him and Amy up together. Anywho, I agree that selectable characters rather than forced play is the way to go. A big plus would be not having to play as everyone to reach the inevitable Super Sonic finale, too. Gimme my Sonic 3 style different character endings! O^O
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Hell, just give us classic Sonic game mechanics in the updated package, since we are forced to deal with the 3D graphics.