When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

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Offline Zan

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Reply #50 on: November 08, 2009, 02:36:54 AM
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No, no ... least I be drawn into another debate.  I'll just leave it at a vague, "I don't see any evidence of Asimov's rules practically applied in the classic MM universe" and leave it at that.  Other people can debate all they like.

What, you don't think your own robots indiscriminately starting to harm humans is a bad thing that robot designers should avoid at all costs?

Light sure as hell ain't making robots for them to go and do that.



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #51 on: November 08, 2009, 02:42:57 AM
What, you don't think your own robots indiscriminately starting to harm humans is a bad thing that robot designers should avoid at all costs?

Light sure as hell ain't making robots for them to go and do that.

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"I don't see any evidence of Asimov's rules practically applied in the classic MM universe"

@Thanatos-Zero
I have seen the glitch that lets you kill Wily.  Also, in PC3 you fire DIRECTLY AT WILY and he explodes.  The picture at the end shows him bowing to MM, but .... I think we all know the truth.  Ditto in MM for Game Gear.  There's a few ways MM kills the good doctor in the games.


Offline Zan

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Reply #52 on: November 08, 2009, 03:03:26 AM
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"I don't see any evidence of Asimov's rules practically applied in the classic MM universe"

Programming all his robots to be good robots IS the practical application of Asimov's rules here.



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #53 on: November 08, 2009, 03:15:47 AM
Programming all his robots to be good robots IS the practical application of Asimov's rules here.

It's great that all of Light's robots are good, but

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"I don't see any evidence of Asimov's rules practically applied in the classic MM universe"


Offline Zan

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Reply #54 on: November 08, 2009, 03:52:56 AM
If that were true, all robots in the entire series would be indiscriminately harming humans.



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #55 on: November 08, 2009, 04:02:51 AM
If that were true, all robots in the entire series would be indiscriminately harming humans.

Again.

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"I don't see any evidence of Asimov's rules practically applied in the classic MM universe"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQGazDqUQWs&feature=related

A human being put in harm's way by a robot in the classic MM series.  One of many examples.  MM shoots Wily out of the sky in this one.  

A list of robots who can put Wily in harm's way by shooting a vehicles while he's inside:
Megaman, unweaponised Mega, Iceman, Bombman, Fireman, Gutsman, Elecman, Cutman, Timeman, Oilman, Protoman, Bass, and Roll.  Yes, Roll can violate the first rule of robotics because she's able to blow up a Wily Machine with Wily himself inside.  In PU Wily ends up charred and smoking; he's hurt.

Not included are alien robots such as Sunstar, RaMoon, and Duo.

The second rule of robotics state that robots must obey the orders of a human ... now, who doesn't do that in the classic series, eh?  *whistles a jaunty tune*

Regardless of the harm he's doing Wily is a human.  Therefore MM (and others) can't have the rules in mind if they're gonna blow up his machines with him inside of them.  Regardless of what X1 and Wily say in MM7, it's just not practically demonstratable that Asimov's rules apply in classic Megaman.  MM2 for Gameboy defies you in the worst way since MM shoots down a fleeing Wily!  Every single "good robot" (not to mention all the bad ones) directly violate the first rule of robotics because all of them fight Wily personally (or Wily reprograms them to take over the world, which assumes they might be able to harm humans who (at the very least) oppose Wily).  Therefore, Asimov's rules just don't apply.  The classic stories are not written witht he rules of robotics in mind, so the rules just don't apply.  They just don't.  It's a plot hole.  It's a plot hole because even the main hero of the series can gun Wily's ship down as he's trying to escape.

The only rule you can demonstratably prove is true is the third.  Which is why I'm saying that, although X1 and MM7 say Asimov's first rule of robotics apply, in practicality it does not.  X1 and MM7 be damned.  Which is why I insist that

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"I don't see any evidence of Asimov's rules practically applied in the classic MM universe"


Offline Zan

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Reply #56 on: November 08, 2009, 02:20:34 PM
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A human being put in harm's way by a robot in the classic MM series.  One of many examples.  MM shoots Wily out of the sky in this one. 

Now I'll be the one quoting myself:

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It's not that Asimov's three rules of robotics don't apply to Rockman/MegaMan, it's just that they don't apply in the same way as Asimov uses them; instead of being literally coded into a robot, they're rules that are kept in mind when making robots.

Asimov's rules practically apply, except not in the same way as Asimov!

Robots can harm humans, robots can disobey humans, robots can end their own existence. But they're not meant to be. In other words, they're rules that the creator follows when creating their robots, they're not coded commands.

Right programs them to be robots that do no harm to humans, Right programs them to obey and work for humans, Right programs them to enjoy life and preserve it.

Dr. Thomas Right programs his robots to have free will whilst trying to avoid breaking those rules at the same time; he is not trying to create disobedient robots, he's not trying to create homicidal robots and he's not trying to create suicidal robots.

However, just because he and everyone else doesn't intend them to, doesn't mean that they can't. And it surely doesn't make them more than what Right always intended for them.

Blues is specifically programmed to be as independent as possible; he's programmed to have free will. Therefore, he's the first of his kind to work differently. Rock and others use that same basic programming but adjusted to avoid another repeat of that incident. Blues himself even reflected on the matter of himself the only robot that truly stands in opposition to the second rule:
"Robots are machines that follow order, then what does that make me?"

The simplest of robots all follow the three rules pretty strictly before they are reprogrammed by Wily. They're hardworking autonomous robots that can not think outside of the boundaries of their programming. Blues and the other robots are programmed in a completely different manner, and follow those rules in a completely different manner. But they still follow them, one way or the other.

However, of course they can shoot at Wily piloted machines to save the world, of course they can ignore orders from a mad scientist, of course they can sacrifice their lives for the sake of a friend. If they weren't capable of that, Right's robots would be nothing more than tools instead of actual characters, people, children, friends. They were always meant to have free will. And they were always meant to follow the rules of robotics because those rules are nothing more than common sense.

You speak of X1 as an anomaly. But weren't you the one that went on about not ignoring any detail about the continuity? It's there and it applies. Trying to act like it's a plothole gets you nowhere. Only when you're open minded enough not to immediately discard it can you see what's truly going on.

Besides, even if you don't like the way the game itself words it, there's more than one version of that warning that shows the amount of thought they put behind it. Most other versions of that scene are much more elaborate and therefore are a much better indiciation of the true meaning of Right's words.

“X” presents many problems inconceivable in existing robots. There is a danger he may worry over or question even the absolute requirement for robots, “Do not harm a human.”

The act of worrying in “X” marks a new epoch in robotics and is the first time this experiment has succeeded, but if it extends to matters that by their nature must not be questioned, it would be disastrous. In the worst case, if a robot were to harm humans deliberately, humankind would tremble with fear the like of which was unknown even in the days of the “Dr. Wily” incidents…


The difference between X's worrying (Suffering Circuit, Kunou Kairo) and Rock's conscience (Conscience Circuit, Ryoshin Kairou) should be as clear as day; To be able to determine right and wrong for oneself, that which Dr. Right himself says in Power Battle robots can not do yet. That which he himself says robots must learn in order to become truly happy.

Let's reverse my wording; Right says that robots can not determine right and wrong for themselves. Right implicates that robots themselves can not determine such things as the three rules of robotics; it is something they have to be told. Right also says X is the only robot that can truly determine this for himself. However, simply mentioning the three rules is an oversimplification if there ever was one; right and wrong extends to many things that the three rules simply do not cover. Those other factors taken into consideration form a robot's conscience, and allow free will.

Either way, Power Battle, that right there is a classic game outright mentioning the facts that tie together both series and the infamous warning sequence, so where do you come from saying it's a plothole and there's simply no practical application?



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #57 on: November 08, 2009, 03:35:51 PM
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Either way, Power Battle, that right there is a classic game outright mentioning the facts that tie together both series and the infamous warning sequence, so where do you come from saying it's a plothole and there's simply no practical application?

[objection!]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQGazDqUQWs&feature=related

Megaman guns Wily out of the [tornado fang]ing sky, there's where!  

What's my point?  It's a plot hole, and a pretty big one, that's my point.

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"I don't see any evidence of Asimov's rules practically applied in the classic MM universe"

Stop being stubborn.  Just agree to disagree already.


Offline Zan

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Reply #58 on: November 08, 2009, 04:03:01 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQGazDqUQWs&feature=related

Megaman guns Wily out of the [tornado fang]ing sky, there's where! 

What's my point?  It's a plot hole, and a pretty big one, that's my point.

HOLD IT!

-It's a plothole- is NEVER the answer.

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You speak of X1 as an anomaly. But weren't you the one that went on about not ignoring any detail about the continuity? It's there and it applies. Trying to act like it's a plothole gets you nowhere. Only when you're open minded enough not to immediately discard it can you see what's truly going on.

Also, did you just miss the essence of my previous post? I said they can seemingly break the rules easily. They're just not intended by their creators to go around doing so all the time. They're good robots with a conscience, not robots built for war.

These robots function within preprogrammed ideas of right and wrong. Right and wrong far exceeds the three rules, but still includes them. It's wrong for robots to harm humans, it's wrong for humans to harm humans, but they still do. The three rules of robotics that exists in Rockman are akin to the 10 commandments for humans. Different from Asimov's interpretation of literal coded commands that can not be denied; Rockman chooses to incorporate the three rules in a much more roundabout method that allows for free will to come into existence by stretching the rules in an almost human-like fashion.

And even if we were to apply a literal interpretation of the rules of robotics as Asimov intended, your entire argument falls flat by virtue of the 0th law.

..humankind would tremble with fear the like of which was unknown even in the days of the “Dr. Wily” incidents…



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #59 on: November 08, 2009, 04:09:13 PM
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-It's a plothole- is NEVER the answer.

Sure it is.  Occam's razor, man. 

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"I don't see any evidence of Asimov's rules practically applied in the classic MM universe"


Offline Zan

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Reply #60 on: November 08, 2009, 04:29:21 PM
0th Law, Gauntlet.



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #61 on: November 08, 2009, 04:35:37 PM
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“X” presents many problems inconceivable in existing robots. There is a danger he may worry over or question even the absolute requirement for robots, “Do not harm a human.”

0th law is bullshit within context.  If it was not bullshit then Light would know that all robots can question this "absolute requirement".  And that they disregard it sometimes.  This statement does not presume the presence of the 0th law while it does presume the presence of the first.

Occam's Razor: it's a plot hole. 


Offline Zan

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Reply #62 on: November 08, 2009, 04:44:21 PM
Don't forget, in contrast to all that precede him, X's worrying disregards the 0th law even; he considers humans and Repliroids equally. He is unbiased in affairs of humans and Repliroids.

As for R7, Wily's using a guilt ploy moreso than the literal Asimov interpretation. He's invoking Rock's conscience that it is wrong to kill him. And Rock has a pretty damn strong righteous conscience, it's that very reason why he stood up against Wily in the first place.



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #63 on: November 08, 2009, 04:46:04 PM
Light's stetement in X1 does not presume the existence of the 0th law while presuming the existence of the first.

Wily's under duress; fine.


Offline Zan

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Reply #64 on: November 08, 2009, 04:54:05 PM
But Light's statement is also a great oversimplification of the concepts he himself devised. "Worrying" is a complicated concept that leaves even the greatest scientific mind of the next century scratching his head on how it actually works.

Exactly because it's such a complicated concept, especially in relation to the robots to the programming that precede it, Occam's razor certainly does not apply here. It's not a plothole, it's the inevitable paradox of free will being given to artificial life created by human hands.

Right believes the first law to apply somehow, and we should see it as such, even if as an oversimplification of the truth.




Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #65 on: November 08, 2009, 05:03:17 PM
But Light's statement is also a great oversimplification of the concepts he himself devised. "Worrying" is a complicated concept that leaves even the greatest scientific mind of the next century scratching his head on how it actually works.

Exactly because it's such a complicated concept, especially in relation to the robots to the programming that precede it, Occam's razor certainly does not apply here. It's not a plothole, it's the inevitable paradox of free will being given to artificial life created by human hands.

Right believes the first law to apply somehow, and we should see it as such, even if as an oversimplification of the truth.



Light's stetement in X1 does not presume the existence of the 0th law while presuming the existence of the first.  

The games themselves go against the first and second law of robotics.  

Therefore the rules of robotics do not apply practically to the classic series robots.  Occam's Razor: X1 and MM7's assertion that Asimov's rules apply are plot holes.

Just agree to disagree.


Offline Zan

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Reply #66 on: November 08, 2009, 05:14:56 PM
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The games themselves go against the first and second law of robotics. 

But Blues himself says robots are by definition machines that follow orders.
He himself is the sole exception, why else would he wonder about his own identity in regards to that notion?

And again, the rules of robotics are a complete oversimplification of the system of conscience that's at work. The matter of free will in artificial life is not something as clear cut, simple, nor as black and white as the three laws of robotics. The three rules are intended to enforce human control over robots, whereas Right's robots are all about the integration of his robots as people in human society whilst still abiding to the basic principles of the rules of robotics as a respected scientist in that field.

The rules are at work, just not in the logical and simplistic Asimov way.



Offline Flame

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Reply #67 on: November 08, 2009, 05:37:13 PM
AKA they are in their minds as norms, as "this is right this is wrong" sort of way, without being outright hardwired?

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Keno

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Reply #68 on: November 08, 2009, 06:44:32 PM
What's the 0th law?

Let's not forget how fast Mega Man was shooting Wily when he turned into an alien. Mega Man's racist.



Offline Zan

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Reply #69 on: November 08, 2009, 08:56:53 PM
AKA they are in their minds as norms, as "this is right this is wrong" sort of way, without being outright hardwired?

That's pretty much exactly what I'm saying.



Offline Flame

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Reply #70 on: November 08, 2009, 09:08:55 PM
Makes sense to me. :\

I dont know why we're arguing about something just added in by the localization team. Im pretty sure that if X doesnt have them hardwired, neither would Megaman. Especially since he shoots at Wily's vehicles with Wily inside. An asimov  robot couldnt do that because it could "possibly threaten the human's life"

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #71 on: November 08, 2009, 09:34:16 PM
You know, after reading the majority of this, I still hold to my thoughts that there is little difference between Rock & X.



Offline Blackhook

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Reply #72 on: November 08, 2009, 09:42:10 PM
X has a more girlish voice


Offline Turian

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Reply #73 on: November 08, 2009, 10:02:10 PM
In 8 and x4 they have the same actors.



Offline The Great Gonzo

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Reply #74 on: November 08, 2009, 10:15:48 PM
I maintain that Capcom only cares about the differences between robots and Reploids when it's convenient to the plot.