RockmanPM Forums
Rockman & Community => Rockman Series => Original => Topic started by: Gatuca on November 02, 2009, 08:27:40 AM
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i was thinkin on makin something like this before, and i dont know if this is an appropriate way to do so, but here's the thing, i decided to make a Video Activity between some friends and you guys, to see your toughts in a funny executed manner
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcYgN5sU2ks[/youtube]
it's a little game that i want to do, and because i want that we all share some fun
now here are the rules.
1.- It need to be a video response (tough you can leave comments as well)
2.- it has too be in somewhat in the style of Nostalgia Critic Old Vs New Episodes (in wich you offer your own toughts on some of the categories and do some comparisons, either verbally or with samples like audio, images or footage)
3.- be truly honest and funny
4- only reply if you have played the 2 games (doesn't matter if you use emulator)
5.- you have until November 7 (UPDATE, the timeline now is until December 10) to post your response
6.- Use images to provide some visual representation
7.- if you want to references some of the later games, (3-9 as well as megaman 1), do so, as long as your main focus
are parts 2 & 3.
Here are the Categories
*1.- Best Game play
*2.- Best Robot Masters (compare the 8 robot masters from each game)
*3.- Best Weapons (compare the weapons of both games and give your toughts)
4.- Best Design
5.- Best Soundtrack
*6.- Best Ideas
*7.- Best Game
I will make my own video during the main time line (probably at the end), but i want to known your thoughts
see you later
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Can I compare MM1 with MM6 instead?
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Can I compare MM1 with MM6 instead?
He clearly stated, that he wants us to compare 2 and 3.
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An interesting challenge, although MM2 seems to hold an inordinate amount of sway nowadays. In the end I think it really comes right down to personal choice, but it might be interesting to compare the two ala NC.
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He clearly stated, that he wants us to compare 2 and 3.
You clearly don't need, a comma immediately after your verb.
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You clearly don't need, a comma immediately after your verb.
It's for dramatic effect. But not good enough.
OBJECTION!
He clearly stated... that he wants us to compare 2 and 3!
Anyway, you know, the whole "youtube" aspect of this thread is very off-putting, so I'm going to ignore that part... If I were to compare 2 and 3; I'd say they're about equal.
Both games have their issues, but I think they're about equal. 2 simply has a certain charm and nostalgia to it that makes it hard for any other game to exceed it. 3 is a game that comes close to combining that with better graphics and functionality, but is ultimately brought back down by the quirks of its production being rushed. The later games improve on things a lot, but they are hit hard by the "more of the same" factor, so they ultimate can't make a dent in 2's popularity.
One notably thing after 2 is that there hasn't been a single all purpose special weapon again. Which is good for balance, but it also seems to go with the idea that special weapons are not allowed to be truly useful. I think for 3 a lot of the weapons are a bit too straightforward or hard to use. But the same can be said for a lot of the other NES games. The only game that truly did Special Weapons right was 9, but that one is a rather unique case, quality title that avoids many mistakes of the past, but because of that has a few issues uniquely its own.
Which really just returns me to where I started; 2 and 3, and pretty much all the games, they're all quality titles though all of them are imperfect in their own unique way. The difference here is not one of quality, but of preference. The MM series has established such a wide spectrum of tiny differences within the same basic mold, that there is always something a fan will dislike because it's ever so slightly different from a previous title. Just as much, if it's not different, then people will dislike it for being the exact same.
My own preference personally goes to 2 for familiarity and nostalgia, but 3 is growing on me as I play it more.
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What? Not even RockMan and Forte did special weapons right?
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I was talking about 1~6+9. Not RnF, nor 8, nor 7, nor any other.
And RnF was pretty bad with its mandatory ice wall use at times.
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I think I like 3 a bit more than 2, as there were some aspects that I really liked in that game. Sliding is pretty nice and really makes boss fights more lively. The game also felt more balanced as a whole, and I didn't have to worry about stuff like MM2's fortress boss that required a certain number of Crash Bombs to defeat. Seriously, the first time I came in there, I had less than enough energy and was pretty much screwed.
I think MM2 had better tunes overall, although MM3 by no means had a lackluster soundtrack. They were both good games, but I do find MM2 to be a tad bit overrated, personally.
One notably thing after 2 is that there hasn't been a single all purpose special weapon again. Which is good for balance, but it also seems to go with the idea that special weapons are not allowed to be truly useful. I think for 3 a lot of the weapons are a bit too straightforward or hard to use. But the same can be said for a lot of the other NES games. The only game that truly did Special Weapons right was 9, but that one is a rather unique case, quality title that avoids many mistakes of the past, but because of that has a few issues uniquely its own.
What, MM8's Flash Bombs weren't good enough? I guess they didn't up and fly in all directions like MB, but I still found MM8's arsenal as a whole to be pretty useful. Of course Arrow Shot overrode that entirely, but yeah. I should also mention that allowing the player to be able to use the Buster and Weapons at the same time (MM8) pretty much gives the player no really good reason as to why they shouldn't have a weapon equipped.
Metal Blade is nice and all, but MM3 (and others) actually gave you motivation to use more than one weapon in the game. Granted, most games always have that one useless weapon, and some had terrible arsenals overall, but as a whole the arsenals are pretty balanced. MB was pretty overpowered looking back on it now, and there really was no need to bother with any other weapon in the game.
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Do I really have to repeat my previous post?
I was talking about 1~6+9. Not RnF, nor 8, nor 7, nor any other.
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Do I really have to repeat my previous post?
I think you should really look over it again. Using that excuse isn't really cutting it...
The only game that truly did Special Weapons right
after 2 is that there hasn't been a single all purpose special weapon again
From my point of view, you are speaking of either all megaman games or the ones just after 1.
You can't dismiss their input just by saying "you weren't talking about it", because your were whether you knew it or not.
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Do I really have to repeat my previous post?
I think you should really look over it again. Using that excuse isn't really cutting it...
The only game that truly did Special Weapons right
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after 2 is that there hasn't been a single all purpose special weapon again
From my point of view, you are speaking of either all megaman games or the ones just after 1.
You can't dismiss their input just by saying "you weren't talking about it", because your were whether you knew it or not.
Yeah, you kinda threw me off there, as your post read as if you were talking about the series as a whole. That said, MM3's Needle Cannon was the closest thing to an all-purpose weapon that MM3 had, and Shadow Blade was basically a poor man's Metal Blade. I agree that most of the NES games had less-than-amazing arsenals, though, barring Rush and Beat support.
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Night, I said "NES games" directly preceding the bolded "only game". 9 included because that is what it intends to be. Reread what I said and think within the scope of just those games. The three non NES mainstream titles offer little in a comparison between NES games.
And even if included, 2 remains the only game to have such an all purpose special weapon because it is completely broken. No other weapon works that well on virtually everything. It's literally the way to kill the majority of the bosses in that game. And exactly because it's broken, 2 holds such a special place amongst the series.
After Rockman2, Rockman3 just doesn't stand out special weapons, quite a few of them are straightforward projectiles or a weaker version of previous weapons. There is the Shadow Blade - Metal Blade comparison, but that's acceptable given Metal Blade being far too broken. However, comparing a weapon such as Spark Shock to the Thunder Beam one can't help but think it should have been much more impressive or effective. All it really does is stun enemies that are otherwise more easily killed, and even in that regards, Ice Slasher exceeds it.
Fast forwarding, Special Weapons got increasingly useless in the later NES titles. 7, 8 and RnF improved on it all, especially 8's addition of two attack buttons. But it is still 9 that is truly an unprecedented title in which virtually all Special Weapons are unique and both multi-functional and efficient in battle.
But back to 2 and 3. If you compare their respective arsenal and ignore the Metal Blade being broken, the other Special Weapons in 2 offer quite a lot it in terms of diversity and efficiency. Whilst 3 has all sorts of projectiles, 2 had time manipulation, a shield, and even the first case of the ability to charge.
All in all, 2 beats 3 in Special Weapon functionality if you ask me. But 2 can't hold a candle to 3's graphics, 3's story presentation and 3's introduction of the Weapon Get screen.
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I think my opinions shuld be glaringly obvious.
I'll say that I was never too impressed with MM2's weapons. Sure, Metal Blades make MM into a GOD. The rest aren't that awsome, IMHO. they have their place, but ... I've never been overly impressed with them. Speed gamers who can do tricks witht hem impress me even more because of this point of view, but that's how I sees it.
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And RnF was pretty bad with its mandatory ice wall use at times.
Weren't you just complaining about a single weapon not being useful enough? Are you ever content?
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Weren't you just complaining about a single weapon not being useful enough?
There's a big difference between being useful and being mandatory. Ice Wall is too forced upon the player that chooses Rockman, whereas it's useless with Forte. Not to mention that its role should by tradition be given to Rush or another non boss ability.
Furthermore, I never said I wanted a return of the broken Metal Blade. There should not be a single all purpose Special Weapon; all weapons should be balanced, multi-functional and efficient.
I'll say that I was never too impressed with MM2's weapons. Sure, Metal Blades make MM into a GOD. The rest aren't that awsome, IMHO. they have their place, but ... I've never been overly impressed with them. Speed gamers who can do tricks witht hem impress me even more because of this point of view, but that's how I sees it.
I think it's mostly that I feel a few of 3's weapons could stand to have some additional improvements. Spark Shock for instance, is the visually least impressive electric weapon in the entire series. It either could have used better sprites, or fired more than a single projectile or should have had the ability to aim.
That reminds me, is there actually a proper use of the Spark Shock? It stuns enemies, still allows for contact damage and unlike Ice Slasher, does not allow one to switch to another weapon. Most minor enemies are better off just being shot with the buster, and most bigger stronger enemies can't be cleared by jumping... Where is using it a particularly useful practice? MegaMan1's Ice Slasher was quite useful for taking care of Big Eye's, but there are none in 3...
Then we have Shadow Blade... It probably removed a little too much of Metal Blade's infinite usefulness, either it should have had more distance, or had the ability to fire downward, but not both. I admit, though, it's tough to balance a weapon such as this without falling into the same pitfall as the Metal Blade.
I also find it noticeable that none of the weapons can pass through enemies. Some of the weapons, like Search Snake or Gemini Laser, could have surely benefited from going through enemies that were weak enough to be destroyed in a single hit.
Of course, with Gemini Laser, that opens up a whole new can of worms in that you can't fire again until the first shot vanishes... it's a powerful weapon (more powerful than Hard Knuckle...) but should have had a way to cancel it, or allowed for more than a single attack on screen. It is a great weapon, granted you don't miss a single shot.
Hard Knuckle just needed less firing delay, and perhaps more damage (why does Gemini Laser exceed it?..). Needle Cannon does its thing well enough. Magnet Missile is probably the best weapon in the game, though I'm not sure if it's a blessing or a curse that a lot of enemy projectiles can be destroyed and tracked by it...
As for Top Spin, great once you actually know how to abuse, but badly programmed for inexperienced users. It would have been better if energy use wasn't linked to contact and if it had a bigger Hit Detection box that was clearly visible by effects.
Speed gamers who can do tricks witht hem impress me even more because of this point of view, but that's how I sees it.
I think knowing the kind of tricks that speed gamers use certainly makes the weapons more appealing. It's one of the reasons why 9's weapons are quite infamous. For 2 I know quite a few tricks, but not for 3, which probably skews my perception of their usefulness. Do you happen to have any good examples of 3's weapons in practice throughout the stages?
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If you could run through enemies while Spark Shock is in effect, it would have been awesome.
I have toyed several times with the idea of improving each game's arsenal, and 9's is pretty much the only I wouldn't touch.
I like 3's selection because the game does a pretty good job at making enemies weak to each weapon, regardless of their functionality, but I agree it has plenty of issues.
As for the better game, I have no doubt 2 is the best, even though I personally like 3 more. I think 3 has a weird charm about it, in enemy design, animation, sound and even its color palette. To me the one event that translates 3's quirky charm is when you absorb a boss's power and the inventory opens up showing you the new weapon. When I was a kid I used to worship that, it was an incredibly cool and imposing effect.
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Every time I get dragged into a debate here I tend to regret it, so I won't answer things specifically.
Personally speaking, in MM2 I only ever use Metal Blade; the others only when required. In MM3 I tend to use most of the weapons. I don't, however, use Spark Shock too much.
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The MM3 weapons are fun to use:
- You can breeze trough most of the enemies using the Top spin
- Somethings above you? Shadow blade is the answer...ok it´s a weaker Metal blade, but you didn´t expect to gain full control of it like ShadowMan, didn´t you?
- taking down stronger enemies and sub bosses with Hard Knuckle/Gemini laser + gemini laser slows down time...ok it is a lag but you know
- Magnet missle is great....but why is it atracted by bullets?
- Search snake is a cuter version of the Bubble lead...you know what that means...
- Needle canon isn´t exactly a canon...it´s a machine gun! A freakin´ neat one
Except for metal blade I
Rush beats the items in 2 easily
The RM stages in both games are fun except for Crash Man´s in 2 (Boooorin elevators) and Top Man´s in 3 (
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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTqp7jUBoA8[/youtube]
DEBATE OVER
MM3 was when the plot for Mega Man got ballsy & actually made Wily dead, until 4 [tornado fang]'d that all up, obviously. It was never really as implied as strongly as in 3 that this might be the final showdown, & I like to treat 1-3 as a separate story arch with that as an alternate ending. It's like how you have to look at pre-Trunks differently than post-Trunks.
As for RnF's weapons, I thought they were the best set. I use Wave Burner for the invincible things that slide back & forth. Remote Mine is so awesome I wanna [parasitic bomb] my pants. Copy Shot is good for all sorts of things. Magic Card is boss. Tengu Blade I never use, but only because the slice overrides the slide. I think it should've just given Mega Man a dash that he couldn't jump out of like a dash, but could still cancel like a dash. Spread Drill had mad good range, & Lightning Bolt was your typical screen nuke.
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Duno. I didnt like MnB's weapons that much... Remote mine and Wave burner were the only ones I found myself using, with magic card only for getting items. Lightning bolt was too expensive to use, and for the most time, I felt obligated to use my buster over any of them, as Bass OR Megaman. Plus they REALLY didnt make the game for Megaman. He was just an afterthought when they remembered it was a MEGAMAN game.
Also, discussion over indeed. I liked 3's music better really. I swear, Ive heard Wily stage 1 from 2 SO many times, it is so overused, and over remixed, (almost all of which sound exactly the same) that I hate hearing it. 3's music never seems to get old though. especially that Wily stage 2. That and Sparkman are my favorite tracks.
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All the Masters' stages were awesome in 3.
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Yknow, now that I reflect upon it, I actually liked 3's Wily stage 4, not 2, best.
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I was about to say that MM4's Wily Stages are underrated, but then I realized that I do hear Wily Stage 2 remixed a lot from MM4.
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if there's any problem with youtube responces >0<
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Yknow, now that I reflect upon it, I actually liked 3's Wily stage 4, not 2, best.
Well, 2 we're talking about is 3 & 4. You mean 5 I think.
Wily Stages in 5 rocks.
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I think he means the 3rd Wily stage song in MM3. I'm not sure though.
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Probably. I don't see how he could like it more than the second of the 3. It's just so much more dramatic & fitting for their final showdown.
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Granted, but it's still an underrated Wily Stage theme, IMO.
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No I mean Mega Man 3, Wily stage 4. The one with the boss rematches.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqWKAXSUsm4
^
this tune is my favorite.
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Oh okay, the 2nd Wily Stage song in the game. Yeah, no doubt about how good that one is. I agree that it's one of the most underrated Wily Stage songs ever.
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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTqp7jUBoA8[/youtube]
Yea, that's the one we've been talking about, Flame.
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I know. I was just testing you.
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No way, liar.
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Hmmmmm, I wonder if I could make lyrics to that song and answer the question that this topic is all about...
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No way, liar.
No way, im serious. otherwise, my pants would be on fire. *tries to hide smoke*
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That reminds me, is there actually a proper use of the Spark Shock?
Playing the Game Boy game instead. :D
That one lets you switch weapons while enemies are frozen, just like Ice Slasher. But it only uses palette cycling for the frozen enemies, not an actual spark animation. :\
MM3 was when the plot for Mega Man got ballsy & actually made Wily dead, until 4 [tornado fang]'d that all up, obviously. It was never really as implied as strongly as in 3 that this might be the final showdown, & I like to treat 1-3 as a separate story arch with that as an alternate ending. It's like how you have to look at pre-Trunks differently than post-Trunks.
Then who was flying the saucer in the ending?
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Also, discussion over indeed. I liked 3's music better really. I swear, Ive heard Wily stage 1 from 2 SO many times, it is so overused, and over remixed, (almost all of which sound exactly the same) that I hate hearing it. 3's music never seems to get old though. especially that Wily stage 2. That and Sparkman are my favorite tracks.
I believe that's simply a testimony of how much people like to remix 2's music over 3's. Though, IMO, the only true remix of Rockman2's Wily Stage1 is Capcom's official Rock remix.
Anyway, a place where 2 beats 3 by miles is the fact that the game has an actual prologue, complete with text visuals and music. That scene is amongst THE best in the whole series and is what gave birth to Rockman's own theme song. For all people preferring Wily Stage 1, I don't think it actually beats Rockman2's title music.
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Then who was flying the saucer in the ending?
Proto Man, obviously.
Anyway, a place where 2 beats 3 by miles is the fact that the game has an actual prologue, complete with text visuals and music. That scene is amongst THE best in the whole series and is what gave birth to Rockman's own theme song. For all people preferring Wily Stage 1, I don't think it actually beats Rockman2's title music.
What you mean the theme of the whole [tornado fang]ing series? Yea, it's good for a reason.
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What you mean the theme of the whole [tornado fang]ing series?
Rockman2's title screen music is THE theme of Rockman. Being his theme song in Marvel vs Capcom, just as Roll has Kaze yo Tsutaete. It's the most recognizable piece of music that represents him.
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It's also his theme, & the credits to the first game.
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This is a really good debate, and I guess I'll throw my two-cents in here.
Each game in the series has its strong points and weaknesses. For example, the original game features some famous Robot Masters, a point system (which I happen to like), and an inability to save your game at all, which just ends up making it more challenging. Each later game added something to the franchise, whether something relatively minor like a Rush Adaptor, or something big like the slide, buster, or the ability to access a store to purchase goodies at. Some games don't feel as complete as others, perhaps because they were relatively rushed in design or because the designers were a bit lazy (MM6 comes to mind here).
When it comes to MM2 and MM3, both of these are favorites of mine. Mega Man 2 introduced some major series staples, such as having a total of 8 RMs, E-Tanks, and a fortress with a map to it. Mega Man 3, on the other hand, introduces the slide (which changes gameplay quite a bit), the idea of someone/something else being suspected for recent events, the introduction of Proto Man, and the inclusion of stages after the first 8 but before Wily's fortress. Each game has a fun cast of Robot Masters (some really neat, some rather odd) and a memorable musical score.
If I had to rate these games, both of them would be in the "A" range, but I think Mega Man 3 would score about a point or two higher than MM2 (maybe a 94 or 95% for MM2 and a 96% or so for MM3). I've always found MM3 to be a bit more challenging than MM2, not necessarily in the fortress or RM stages, but moreso with the Doc Robot stages. The stage designs in MM3 were a bit more clever than in two, and I also really enjoyed its subtle graphical upgrades. The music in MM3 is also quite nice, with some rather memorable tunes, though I think in that department MM2 would have the upper-hand (just think of how many songs from that game have been remixed!). Even though MM2 receives so many hacks and all, I think MM3 deserves to have a few more well-done hacks.
I could probably go into a lot more detail on this subject, but I'll leave it at that for now. ;)
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It's also his theme, & the credits to the first game.
Or the credits to the fourth game, for the other part?
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you know, now that i think on it, as much as i hate to say it, and as much as i like MM3, i cant help but feel that the game feels a little bit rush
plus most of the weapons sucks but shadow blade inst bad
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Sadly, MM3 is rushed. The controller 2 tricks, Rush firing without opening his mouth (they quit before finishing this), "Break man" being an anomaly (his transformation sprites are never seen so his final phase is more anomaly than cool), Rush Jet being able to fly anywhere including underwater, and glitches that allow you to select Rush early are only a few rough edges. MM3 in the Wily Wars polished the game op a little bit, as did the gameboy game's tratment of some bosses and weapons. Nevertheless, I tend to like MM3 more, especially because of unfinished glitches like godly Rush Jet and the controller 2 tricks.
My personal music prefernce is MM3 over MM2. I simply like more tracks from the game. Although, again personally speaking, I like MM4 and 5's music over both MM2 and 3 (admittingly, I have not measured how many tracks I preffer in each game). While MM3 is, overall, my favorite MM game, they did improve things as time went on.
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Rush Jet could still fly underwater in MegaMan 4, actually; he only couldn't be summoned into water in that game. So if flying underwater was something they wanted to fix, they only partially fixed it for the next game.
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That'd be on a list of bugs they didn't fix in MM4. MM4 had bugs witht he Pharaoh Shot and the Megabuster as well, if I recall. And you can kill Wily using the Rain flush. No, MM4 is not perfect.
I'd be interested to know how Rush Jet behaves in the other MM games, especially the gameboy and WW games in regards to water. I think I made some notes for WW, but ... *shruggs*. However, it being able to be summoned in water is a bug, that's for sure. It negates Rush Marine and was fixed in WW, if I recall correctly. Rush Marine also immediately dissappears when you jump out of water: it's probably something they intended to put in the NES MM3 as well. As is the extra "turning" sprite for Magnet Missiles.
Edit: MM2 is not perfect either. You can access Wily's levels using some tricks at the end of some stages. Collision detection is off and allows you to "zip" accross some levels as well. Not as many things are unpolished as MM3, but MM2 does have some problems.
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funny, because i do consider that the things that i think that are quite rushed, with the exception of the weaponry, are more like nitpicks, and oh well
here they are:
- When killing the Willy fortress bosses, they do just the normal explosion instead of the flashing screen explosion, it
just feel really weak, especially with the yellow devil
- the way the pacing is made in the ending, feels too fast, the last cutscene should been onscreen for a little more
and the music actually ends
- the physics of the Doc robots are terrible and choppy compared to the MM2 boss cast, the only ones that are
at least right are Docbot Quickman and Docbot Metalman, but for example, Docbot Flashman is awful, and Docbot
Woodman is pretty cheap, plus the lack of sounds in their attacks is quite dissapointing and even the animations
are not right, again takin example of the Docbot Flashman
Then again, those are more like nitpicks, so they really dint count as much as it should be, besides, the Docbots are pretty challengin as well as the stages, (Docbot Needleman Stage is one of my favorite stages in the whole franchise), so i can ignore those
but the one that im really disappointed now is the weaponry, it sadly is bad, but then again MM5 had the WORST WEAPONRY in the megaman franchise, IMHO.
- Shadow Blade is OK, yes, it is an inferior version of the Metalblade, but it works well (Besides, i always liked more
the Quick Boomerang in MM2)
- Needle Cannon, OK too, no problem there
- Magnet Missile, good, but it drains very quickly
- Search Snake...............well is the MM3 version fo the bubble lead, not bad, but not mandatory, you can
beat the game without using it once, except of course if you want to defeat Gemini man faster (tough the irony is
i used to use this weapon at the 2nd Form of Gamma, and at the time, i used to think it was the only way to defeat
the boss.)
Now, the other Half
- Hard Knuckle, very faulty in my opinion, slow, and bg drainer, no really point for use it
- Gemini Laser, it doesn't look so bad, but the slowdown, and some hit detection, it make it really dorky
- Spark Shot, is lame, it only paralized weak enemies, but they still hit you, What?, and is useless agaisnt some
small enemies, not only that, but is it me?, or this weapon looks like it should be the charge shot, you know like
the Atomic Fire, i mean, spark man trow a big ball at you, so why not do the same thing.
And of course the infamous TOP SPIN, O:<
- Its one of the worst weapons in general, i know what you are going to say, well it does cause a lot of damage
when you hit on the enemies, well, ONLY agaisnt shadow man and Gamma 2nd Form, but everyone else, its useless,
but why?, maybe because YOU CANT HIT ANYONE WITHOUT GETTING HIT, it seems like they tried to outdo the
pogo stick attack form the Ducktales Games, that would been good if they did it right, or better yet, why not just
give this weapon an effect ala Rockman 4 MI Hell Wheel Weapon?
That's 4 VS 4
but if may be hypocritical if i still said i think Megaman 3 is better than Megaman 2?
tough i dint really care about the glitches, they seemed really fun to me, and i will admit, i used to abuse them when i was a teen
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To me, the rough edges don't matter in regards to which game is better. I notice them now because I'm actively looking for them.
- The fortress bosses .... you're on the money there. Except for the Triple clone, obviously.
- Doc Robot's animations less so. There's a limited amount of memory to work with in a game like this, that's just reality. I don't think his animations are unpolished. However, the lack of sound effects would be a lack of polish. I don't quite follow on the choppy physics comment. Personally, I haven't noticed any difference in that regard.
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Heh, I decided to test the rest of the NES and GB games just now about that Jet-in-water thing. The second Game Boy game was the only one that completely blocks Rush Jet from entering water at all. 3, 4, and 5 for Game Boy all allow Rush Jet in water, but it's nothing to be thrilled about, since those games also lack Rush Marine completely, and Rush Jet has no vertical control in them at all. Then I tried it in Mega Man 5 for NES, and Rush Jet could be summoned and flown through water there too! Then again, that game also lacks Rush Marine, and the only level with actual pools of water is the third-to-last level, so you could explain it as a compromise or an oversight. And if you want to want to count Jet MegaMan, then yeah, jets work just fine in Mega Man 6. So it's starting to look as though not allowing Rush Jet in water is the aberration.
Edit: And now I've tested RockMan 7, and Rush Jet can enter water and fly just fine in that game too. Wow, are people really remembering RockMan World 2 the best when it comes to rules for Rush Jet?
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Well without Rush Marine, I don't see why Jet wouldn't work in water.
Still, it's good to know that MM3 NES is the only game where Jet can be summoned in the water. Since it's fixed in WW, that's a true bug.
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You don't take damage from using Top Spin as long as you use it against enemies that are actually weak to it (there are 19, all OHKOs). Sadly this is not the case with the Robot Masters.
Honestly, the rushed pieces that people complain about MM3 only make the game more appealing to me. The overpowered Rush Jet, fuel conservation, being able to "choose" Rush Marine and Jet before intended, P2 commands. It's the equivalent of sequence-breaking in most Metroid games, in that it's technically a fault in the game, but one that makes it deeper and more enjoyable.
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Well without Rush Marine, I don't see why Jet wouldn't work in water.
Still, it's good to know that MM3 NES is the only game where Jet can be summoned in the water. Since it's fixed in WW, that's a true bug.
Um, I don't think it was fixed in The Wily Wars. Are you sure you remember correctly? And you can summon Rush Jet in water in all those other games I mentioned: 5, 6, and 7, and World 3, 4, and 5. It was only NES 4 that had that weird halfway restriction where Rush Jet could travel into water but couldn't start in it.
You don't take damage from using Top Spin as long as you use it against enemies that are actually weak to it (there are 19, all OHKOs). Sadly this is not the case with the Robot Masters.
I noticed a couple of times that I managed to hit HardMan with Top Spin but bounced away uninjured. That's why I wonder if Top Spin was supposed to always make RockMan bounce off safely whether or not it worked on the enemy, but the programmers ran out of time to fix it so he wouldn't take damage first.
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I'm very certain you can't call Rush Jet int he water int he Wily Wars .... but not 100% certain, no.
Games with Rush Marine don't count in this, naturally. Hm. I'll check the rest myself, just to be sure. But ... later. It's kinda besides the point. If WW and most other games didn't fix i, then Capcom mighta just left it in due to .... sheer sloppiness, I guess.
Edit: good call on Top Spin. Maybe they did. But it might make usage in stages trickier, since a bounce might land you in a pit.
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Yeah, I had to be careful about using it on the Parachus in ShadowMan's stage because of that.
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I just might make a note of this at some point. So let's see what we got. If MM3 were completed the way Inafune may have wanted we might have gotten:
Likely (followed up on in other games)
- a More MM4-ish Rush Jet
- A "turning" sprite for Mag Missiles (implemented in WW, sprite exists in MM3)
- Rush Marine opening it's mouth to shoot (almost implemented in MM3, implemented in MM4)
- Rush Marine automatically disappearing when you jump out of the water and land on land (in WW).
- Controller-2, Rush tricks, and "zombie MM" taken out of the game.
- A better Spark Shock (where you can freeze enemies; implemented in 3 GB, behaves like Ice Slasher, implemented in WW...?).
- In the "Wily Eyebrow" sequence the building in the distance would probably be Skull Castle (changed for the WW).
- The removal of unused screens and tiles.
Possibly (seems logical)
- Rush Marine not being summoned in water (I'm gonna check this out sometime, the keys are WW and MM4 since they are the most direct follow ups to the mechanics between RJ and RM).
- Protoman transforming into Breakman / Brakman having a different attack pattern / Breakman simply not appearing at all
- Doc Robot using the sounds of the MM2 guys.
- Fortress bosses with "big" explosions.
- A better cut for the end music-? It simply cuts Proto's theme off and most MM games don't do that.
- A better Top Spin (it already bumps MM away when it doesn't work).
- Doc Robot Magnetman? The tiles exist for a Doc Robot level and the mugshots were originally arranged that way.
- Implementation of the Mega Buster. No evidence that it got past design stages.
Unlikely
- Implementation of other animal helpers. Again, no evidence that it got past the design stages and the designs were unspeific.
- A smoother Doc Robot animation and physics (IMHO, they did their best for the time).
- An introduction (MM4 and beyond has one, but there's no other indication that it would be done).
Anything else? MM3 lacks an opening scene, but I haven't seen anything, even drawn, to suggest it would have one.
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What about that big unused graphic of RockMan's back?
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If they had wanted that in it would have been in; it's only a graphic.
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But wouldn't that graphic also demand some sort of opening story sequence? That's one thing sorely missing from 3.
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I figured it was origionally meant for the image at the title. Since it's bunched with the "got weapon" image also used in the title.
I dunno if an intro would be there if MM3 was continued as Inafune would have wanted. While MM4 and onwards has it, it could have been decided to be reintroduced specifically at MM4. There's not much else coobertaing the idea that MM3 would ever have had an intro.
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I dunno, I think it feels kind of dull for the title or get weapon screen, it strikes me more as a scene.
Wasn't there also a cityscape background? I feel the two images together could make a nice image of Rock overlooking the city before explosions or such happen. Preluding the attack of mysterious robots.
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The city scene's place in the rom suggests that it's an alternate version of Wily exiting Light's lab and doing his eyebrow thing.
I agree that it doesn't fit for "get wepons"; you'll recall that rockman 3 used the "get weapon" image for the image on the title screen. Likely MM'b back was meant to go there, but that it was replaced. Probably beause of how dull it is.
Edit: I'll file an intro as "unlikely". MM4 has one, so ... maybe. But nothing else suggests it.
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Speaking of Wily leaving Light's lab, you wrote the following on your site:
In MM3 Wily lifts off from some mysterious area. Judging from the previous scene (where Light talks to MM about Wily stealing Gamma), one assumes this is Light's Lab, but .... is it? In the Wily Wars it's actually Skull Castle .... but that doesn't make much sense. He lifts off from Skull Castle, zooms away and arrives ... right back in Skull Castle? Plus the NES sprite looks nothing like MM3's Skull Castle! Is it Light's Lab?
The impression I got from the scene was that the building in the distance was not where Wily lifts off from, it's too far into the distance from that. We should probably assume that Light's lab is off-screen, either long gone or directly below it. After lifting off, Wily speeds off to go to his Skull Castle, which was visible in the distance all along.
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It doesn't look like Skull Castle, which I also note.
Edit: WW changes it to Skull Castle, tho. So it's likely they would have made that, more obviously, into SC had they had more time.
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I just think it's a bit weird that in the article you talked of that place as where Wily lifted off from. It's in the far distance, so either it is just a random backdrop. Or by Megaworld's account, it's Wily destination. It never seemed to be intended as the place he lifted off from.
I think if you were to take into account the additional background that's in the tile data, it seems most likely Wily lifted off from inside the city.
That reminds me, we do have quite a few background differences between the prototype and final game, with a lot of prototype backgrounds seeming much more complex, perhaps those would have been reinserted?
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I don't want to spend pages upon pages to debate everything I've ever written on my site. I'm certain there's lots on there that you'd disagree with.
They likely thought the parrallax effect with the stars warranted the removal of the more complex backgrounds. Just like with geminiman's stage and that planet. At the time the star effect was pretty bad ass, so it's likely that; for the second screen at least.
But I can't say for certain why they would have removed the more complex backgrounds in favor of simpler ones. It's like Topman's stage: why did they change that background? I dunno. But it was changed when the tiles were already complete, so it's likely a deliberate choice rather than a rough edge due to lack of time. Given more time, we would have never likely found those screens at all.
Which I ought to note in my list.
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Just a quick thought, but back in the day, I thought MM3 Skull Castle was called Skull Compound.
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http://megaman.wikia.com/wiki/Robot_Guard
How about this guy? I didn't think about him before, because he was only a sketch, but the missiles he shoots are very similar to the Giant Springer's. Do you guys suppose it's likely he was in a version of the prototype?
Then again, he may have been so similar to the Giant Springer that it might have been the reason he was not put in or taken out in the first place.
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I figured it was origionally meant for the image at the title. Since it's bunched with the "got weapon" image also used in the title.
I was thinking it could have been part of an extended ending sequence, where after RockMan finishes running to the left and looks up, the view switches to a close-up of him looking up. Probably not, but I still wonder why ProtoMan's song is so much longer than what we're normally treated to in the game.
After lifting off, Wily speeds off to go to his Skull Castle, which was visible in the distance all along.
Right, except I have to imagine that after the saucer finishes lifting off, the camera angle has changed so that the castle is now to Wily's left rather than in the back. And I thought that would have been a good time to insert the full "castle view" music, just for the first time watching the saucer fly, if I were to remake the game.
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I was thinking it could have been part of an extended ending sequence, where after RockMan finishes running to the left and looks up, the view switches to a close-up of him looking up. Probably not, but I still wonder why ProtoMan's song is so much longer than what we're normally treated to in the game.
The graphic becomes fully assembled in the game when it's value is switched out with the "got weapon" graphic. I used to think it was part of an alternate ending, but the evidence in-game doesn't support that.
I can't say why Protoman's song is longer. I think, had they more time, they probably would have shortened it properly.
Still, it's a repeating track, so it might have ben over the entire credits at one point.
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I'm breaking rule #1, because there's no way I can have a video recorded, uploaded, and annotated by 3 days ago.
1.- Best Game play
MM3, hands down. Both require precise movements to be successful, yes. But the updated physics in MM3, and the added depth of sliding and the Rush Adaptors make it more possible in 3; though 2 does get props for some unique elements, like the Buebeam Trap and concept of QuickMan's level; even if a little unbalanced in concept (BBT: blow it once, and you're screwed for good!).
2.- Best Robot Masters (compare the 8 robot masters from each game)
Duh. MM3 features all sixteen.
3.- Best Weapons (compare the weapons of both games and give your toughts)
TIE. Every weapon has it's usefulness, even if Spark Shock's is just MagnetMan. Even Shadow Blade ultimately makes sense, as ShadowMan is an amalgomation of QuickMan and MetalMan, and Shadow Blade is one of Quick Boomerang and Metal Blade.
4.- Best Design
Apples and oranges. MM2's plot is supplanted as it's opening and ending, while 3's gameplay IS the plot (though badly illustrated/not clarified.) MM7 is like a midpoint in design that, applied to either of these titles, would be maserful.
5.- Best Soundtrack
MM2, hands down, practically DEFINED the MegaMan sound, all around. MM3's soundtrack was great, but a little more hit-or-miss in some departments; most notably the use and appropriate level of percussion.
6.- Best Ideas
MM3. Not only with Rush and the slide, but the unforgettable concept of the Doc Robot levels; a key ingredient in the MM3 masterpiece that has yet to be reproduced in any of it's following titles. Another example is it's use of widgets; the magnets in MagnetMan's stage produced an anomaly in the gameplay that made such a level seem impossible to navigate otherwise.
7.- Best Game
MM3, but such a concept would never exist if MM2 hadn't existed first, AND been such a blockbuster to begin with.
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Another example is it's use of widgets; the magnets in MagnetMan's stage produced an anomaly in the gameplay that made such a level seem impossible to navigate otherwise.
Er, what's this all about now?