Author Topic: Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?  (Read 6109 times)

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Offline Sigma Zero X

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Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?
« on: August 11, 2012, 10:42:27 PM »
After replaying Mega Man Legends 1, there are not really boss refights. The Hanmuru Doll and Karamuna Bash Reaverbot bosses are fought as regular enemies when players encounter them later on.

For those unfamiliar with the boss names here are the breif descriptions:
 
The Hanmuru Doll is the boss fought in the Intro Stage. A regular enemy version can be found in the regular ruins.
 
The Karamuna Bash are 3 wolf Reaverbot bosses fought at the Clozer Ruins Sub Gate. They are fought as regular enemies at the Main Gate.
 
That said, is it important for a Mega Man game to have boss refights?
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Offline Splash

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Re: Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2012, 11:04:27 PM »
In Classic and X series - it's a chance to find everyone's weaknesses.
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Offline Karasai♪

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Re: Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2012, 11:09:46 PM »
To me boss rematches are pretty much "This is for all the hell you put me through O:<" since hopefully you should know all their weaknesses and take them down easily.

Offline Acid

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Re: Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2012, 01:21:37 AM »
Well... no they aren't necessary. They're a design choice.

Though I'm so used to them I don't wanna miss them.

Offline Treleus

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Re: Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2012, 09:01:01 PM »
Honestly? No, they don't.

Something in their place, I think, is in order. Either a new set of bosses or a smaller set of randomly selected Mavericks that may or may not be more relevant to the plot later in--only supercharged. Much harder and with different looks and/or patterns.

Offline Align

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Re: Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2012, 10:48:21 PM »
I'd prefer something that's similar enough for what you've learned about the boss to be useful, but different enough that it's a distinctly different fight, like Doc Robot. Well, more like Zant in Zelda TP, but Doc Robot was kinda sorta a move in that direction...

Offline Flame

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Re: Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2012, 11:41:45 PM »
They could play with the idea, and tweak it. So you go in thinking, "oh alright, another refight" and suddenly, the game switches it up on you and the boss behaves COMPLETELY different. Different moves, stronger hits, faster speed, etc etc. AKA a completely different fight with the same boss character.

I mean, if the protagonist character defeated the boss once, possibly without a weakness weapon, I dont see how throwing the same exact boss with only a few differences, ( MAYBE a higher lifebar- lookin at you here X5) at him again later on when the character is much more beefed up would work any better. This way though, it makes it so that yeah, your character has powered up since their last fight- but so has the boss.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

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Re: Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2012, 11:48:05 PM »
It doesn't need them but they're basically tradition at this point.

Offline Treleus

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Re: Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2012, 04:03:40 AM »
Sometimes tradition needs breaking. In Mega Man's case, it's long overdue. It's what makes me think Legends was ahead of it's time.

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Re: Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2012, 05:16:56 AM »
Legends weren't ahead of their time so much as they were completely different games.

Offline Treleus

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Re: Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2012, 06:20:11 AM »
Yeah, but what I meant is Legends seemed to have come out at the wrong time. People were still too used to the 2D Mega Man, so naturally most were kinda repulsed by it and everything it changed. Adding to that, it predated Z-targeting by about a year before Ocarina of Time came out, and it incorporated a heavier emphasis on plot and exploration that the Mega Man series just didn't seem ready for. It was too different at the time.

But it was also plagued with other problems, like a lack of (musical) atmosphere and tank controls, even though I don't think the latter is as bad as some make it out to be. Legends 2 fixed both problems and ended up being a bigger game, but it lacked the compactness of Legends' singular Kattelox Island and the interconnecting dungeons underneath it. I felt like it was a simpler, arguably more potent experience than the sequel. And by then it just didn't have as much traction as it needed to be a success, which was really unfortunate.

But anyways, I think the Mega Man 2D action series should've definitely moved away from the 8 boss formula as well as re-fights, but at least it should've moved away from refights.

Offline Flame

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Re: Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2012, 06:27:15 AM »
lack of musical atmosphere? I beg to disagree.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline OBJECTION MAN

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Re: Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2012, 06:30:11 AM »
I think legends fit the whole atmosphere of the PSX era. It was a move toward that anime as a game feel. There was more emphasis on story, with anime style graphics, experimenting with voice work, and giving a middle-ground retro to new aged feel. It is inevitably an era I look back on with fondness.

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Offline Treleus

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Re: Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2012, 03:49:48 PM »
Well, what I meant was it didn't have enough music. I appreciated the subdued ambience of the sub gates and the outdoorsy areas, but I dunno. Maybe it would've been better if there was some subtle melodic accompaniments. Would've helped to make the experience a little more memorable.

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Re: Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2012, 05:54:34 AM »
Try Legends 2.  More music, less atmospheric effects.

In most Mega Man games I like boss refights because they demonstrate how much more powerful you've become.  But it's somewhat less relevant in the Classic series, when power-ups outside of the basic special weapons are scarce.  Still, I agree it's a convenient way to learn everyone's weakness.

All depends on how it's handled, and there's a lot of different ways it can be spun.  Overall I don't find anything wrong with it, but it needs to avoid being TOO large of an obstacle, or it destroys your feeling of progress.  Powered Up's boss rematches were a complete disaster in that regard.  On the opposite end of the scale, Xtreme2's rematches barely slow you down.

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Re: Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2012, 06:15:19 PM »
Hoo boy, boss rematches.  You know what game got those completely wrong?  Megaman X5

You make your way to the final stage, walk into the first teleporter, and bam!  Level 96 boss with a souped up healthbar.  Not only do they take forever to kill, it's arguably a longer process using special weapons!  Dudes like Mattrex and Grizzly bounce for like 5 full seconds after hitting them with their respective weaknesses.  It slows the game down to the point that I don't like playing X5's final stage anymore, despite the final bosses actually being fun to fight.  It's just a huge momentum killer.

I think the 'hatches' idea needs to be scrapped, and the old bosses should just be spread throughout the fortress like MM1/X1 did.  This way it doesn't feel like a chore taking them down one by one.  This would work even better if the games had larger fortresses, because you could start making bosses show up in like the 2nd segment, and be spread all the way to say, the 5th or 6th.

But it was also plagued with other problems, like a lack of (musical) atmosphere and tank controls, even though I don't think the latter is as bad as some make it out to be. Legends 2 fixed both problems and ended up being a bigger game, but it lacked the compactness of Legends' singular Kattelox Island and the interconnecting dungeons underneath it. I felt like it was a simpler, arguably more potent experience than the sequel.

Pretty much my exact thoughts on Legends 2, and why it's my favorite game of all time (despite the quirks).  I did like Kattelox a lot more than the MML2 islands, if only because exploring a large singular island adds a lot more depth than visiting smaller sections of multiple islands.  Ideally I'd like a Legends game that lets you explore multiple islands to the fullest, or at the very least have a singular large island with some climate/weather variance.  It was nice to see snow in the beginning of MML2, as a contrast to the clear skies and green grass that were all over the place in MML1.

Definitely agree that the musical atmosphere of MML2 exceeded the first game's.  MML1 had some nice tunes, but the way MML2 did it's music is what sold me.  Take Yosyonke for example.  The island has a main tune that you hear when exploring the town.  You get a cheery version of it when entering a house/shop, a more ominous version when venturing outside the city, a more upbeat version of that tune when a reaverbot pops up, a straight-up remix for the abandoned mine, and another remix for Calinca Ruins.  I think the tune is worked into the Train battle too.  MML2's soundtrack was just genius like that; every island had its own musical atmosphere and the game was consistent with it!

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Offline Treleus

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Re: Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2012, 08:34:34 PM »
Try Legends 2.  More music, less atmospheric effects.

You know what, Hypershell? I've been meaning to order myself a nice mint copy of Legends 2 for the PS1 ever since I got the first one. I'm going to do just that right now. Thanks for the reminder!

By the way, you guys should take advantage of the Big Bad Toys Store preorder pack for the new D-Arts Mega Man figure + Rush & Mettool before supplies run out and they get price-hiked second-hand. I'm still waiting for the reissue of Mega Man X figures.

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Re: Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2012, 05:20:33 AM »
Hoo boy, boss rematches.  You know what game got those completely wrong?  Megaman X5
Well, that's because X5 got boss fights PERIOD wrong.  There's no reason a weakness weapon needs to cause a boss to bounce around for such an absurd length of time as Dinorex, ESPECIALLY when you consider how few frames of animation they go through during that process.  The pacing is positively absurd.

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Re: Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2012, 05:38:01 AM »
OF COURSE YOU NEED TO FIGHT THE BOSSES TWICE!  Do you have any idea what the alternative is?

Remember fighting ALL THE ROBOT MASTERS from MM2 in MM3?  Imagine if Capcom had kept that the tradition and you had to fight all the robot masters from MM2 and MM3 in MM4.  Imagine fighting EVERY ROBOT MASTER EVER MADE in MM10.

Offline Joseph Collins

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Re: Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2012, 08:28:04 AM »
You mean instead of just a random assortment of 9 past bosses?

But your idea does remind me, there was a huge missed opportunity with the Inti Creates games.  Instead of fighting the bosses from that game in Endless Mode, just throw in a random boss from a previous game!  Of course, that game's bosses would be there as well, but imagine how cool it would've been to stab Bubbleman with Laser Trident or whap Hardman to death with Rebound Striker.  Heh heh heh.

But more on-topic, the classic series did a good job with the boss refights.  The X series, however...  Having recently played Mega Man X3, I can honestly say that the boss refights in that game were more of a nuisance than interesting.  I don't know what's different...  I guess it's because they have more health than the classic series bosses.  Re-fighting the bosses, weaknesses or not, just feels so tedious in the X series...  Particularly in Mega Man X5 (as stated), where the re-fights get their maximum god damn health.  Eaugh...

So to answer the original question, no.  They're not needed.  But they're kind of half-expected, definitely.

Offline Align

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Re: Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2012, 06:18:50 PM »
It's probably that in the SNES and later games, weakness weapons don't just do more damage, they cause some special effect which almost always includes the boss being invincible for considerably longer than usual.
I guess it justifies the weakness in a more intuitive way than usual, but it does take awful long to kill anything that isn't Spark Mandrill.

Offline Ladd Spencer

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Re: Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2012, 07:38:41 PM »
I feel it is incredibly important to game pacing to have boss re-fights. To have to fight all 8 bosses on one set of lives is hard (the first time), and it really makes for a good hurdle right before Wily.

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Re: Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2013, 07:37:15 AM »
Yes, they do. I think it gives a great atmosphere before the last boss. I also think doc robots were a good idea. :P
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Re: Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2013, 07:43:51 AM »
It also teaches Mega Man a valuable life lesson: Things that were once dead always come back to life!  like this thread

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Re: Does a Mega Man game need boss refights?
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2013, 07:48:32 AM »
It also teaches Mega Man a valuable life lesson: Things that were once dead always come back to life!  like this thread

Beautiful, simply eloquent there.