RockmanPM Forums
Rockman & Community => Rockman Series => Topic started by: The Great Gonzo on January 05, 2009, 02:38:19 AM
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A thought occurred to me. What kind of theories were proposed way back in the day, when the NES was still alive, when the Internet wasn't as widespread, etc.? Does anyone remember them, no matter how ridiculous they might have been? Not just for Classic, but any series (preferably Classic/X, though), widespread or no.
All I have to contribute is that I briefly thought Protoman was Roll, but that was more of a misconception than anything else.
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- X is Megaman 100 years in the future.
- Zero was Roll 100 years in the future. (Deconfirmed)
- Mother Elf was Iris (Z2 heydays)
- Legends took place in an alternate universe, similar to how the Classic & EXE series differed.
And that's all I can remember right now.
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Jelly, I can't believe you forgot the Cataclysm. Also, I know I've heard Forte=Zero somewhere in Mexican forums before.
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Jelly, I can't believe you forgot the Cataclysm.
Sorry, it just sounded waaaay unlike the series even from it's inception and with Inafune's classic "it didn't happen like that" line, I just wrote it out of my head. XD
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Keeping the mindset of "Internet wasn't as widespread":
- I myself thought that both X and Rock weren't robots, but humans wearing armor.
- Bass = Vile. Some cat wrote a fanfic where in X (who's OBVIOUSLY Rock!)'s period their mind switch bodies. Next thing you know that is a FACT.
- Zero = Protoman.
- Protoman died in Mega Man 3 saving Rock's life from the boulders, that's why Rock sees his image in the sky (SAID BY A GAMING MAG HERE).
- We don't know how Protoman came back in Megaman 5. What the hell are you talking about that he was in 4?!
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Damn I was going to say Zero = protoman...
I heard once this crazy thing from a pal once.
Megaman and Protoman were once regular humans. Rock got into some accident, (dont remember now) and Protoman was, and I quote, "he was shot in the head, and then the bullet came out the other side with a peice of his brain." and as such, theyre both cyborgs apparently.
yeah...
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- Protoman died in Mega Man 3 saving Rock's life from the boulders, that's why Rock sees his image in the sky (SAID BY A GAMING MAG HERE).
Funny, that's what ScrewAttack.com said, too. Then again, in Megaman's world, death is cheap.
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I once proposed that Dynamo was really an old, tweaked and fixed Protoman just to see if anyone saw the similarities. But seeing how I only proposed it to myself, as I wasn't widespread on the Internet, it didn't catch on. 8D
But really, before the Internet, I can't say I heard anything different from the already mentioned character=character misconceptions. If I was lucky to hear anyone talk about Megaman games besides myself.
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Legends WAS in another universe, similar to the EXE series. This is something capcom changed later on, when the EXE series came out. I can only guess that they didn't liek the idea of having three timelines. Actually, it was fanon that it was set in the same timeline, and that Trigger was Rock.
As for fanon, see Mandi's MM Homepage. Most of her musings made it in. Let's see if I can remember other famous ones....
Light's RM don't return back when Wily stole them.
MM has no one creator attributed to him and was really a product of Capcom group-think.
Serges = Wily.
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Classic:
-Protoman is training Rock in MM3
-Snake Man's weakness is Spark Shock (inadequate explanation of MM3's weapon cycle, suggested order began with Magnet Man and ended with Needle Man)
-Snake Man's weakness is Hard Knuckle (I saw a pic in a Player's Guide)
-Quickman's beams are in Wily Stage 2 (Player's Guide fails again)
-Wily made Protoman (thank you, RubySpears...)
-MegaMan is a 40-year-old guy with a pistol
X:
-All X games after X5 are non-canonical (X6, X7, Z1, Telos, MMZOCW, the entire concept of the Elf Wars, and ZXA all fly in the face of it)
-Zero is Rush (originated in X2 reviews but is still believed by gaming peripheral manufacturers as of January, 2006)
-Zero was made by Cain (hey, I thought so until X4)
And, for the hell of it, some more current ones:
X:
-Force Metal is in X8 (a material first discovered in 22XX is in 21XX)
Zero:
-Omega is the X1 Zero body (disproved by MMZOCW; would have been awesome, though)
-Weil is Wily (knew damn well that was false as soon as Z3 was out, but it took Z4 and an Inafune interview to put that one to rest)
ZX:
-Biometal is locked to a single individual, as opposed to selecting from the "pool" of Chosen Ones (circumstantial, and EXTREMELY questionable given the monologues of Pandora and Prometheus).
-Girouette is Zero (Prairie would know; besides, check eye color)
-Vent and Aile exist only in AUs, different genders of the same person (disproved before RMZX was even released)
-Vent and Aile are blood siblings (fans fail to notice that their outfits are Giro Express uniforms; they are co-workers both orphaned and adopted by Giro following the same Maverick attack; this is not unusual considering said attack was on an amusement park)
-Vent and Aile share the same skin tone (Aile is lighter; the difference just isn't as obvious as with Grey and Ashe)
-Grey and Ashe exist only in AUs (references to each's introductory stage are seen in the other's story)
Legends:
-The Master is X/Zero/Light (disproved by Japanese interview; thanks to Marshmallow Man)
-Artificial beings cannot physically grow or reproduce (get equipped with Carbons)
Mother Elf was Iris (Z2 heydays)
Ah, memories... So much missed opportunity.
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Some people believe to this day that Zero always had the saber even pre X1. that he was built with it. I hate that one for some reason. they go as far as to call an X1 hack of zero which makes X look like Zero and gives him a red Charge shot, (like IHX)"Fail, because he doesnt have the saber"
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Oh, and on the topic of Protoman in MM3.
- Breakman and Protoman are two different people. I actually had a debate with someone a long ways back about whay this idea made no sence.
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You know, I never thought I would hear a fanon concept even more stupid than Zero being Roll (oh, the horrors of Capcom's boards). But, yeah, that one is it.
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You know, I never thought I would hear a fanon concept even more stupid than Zero being Roll (oh, the horrors of Capcom's boards).
GameFAQ's boards, 2001.
Two men go in, one man comes out.
"zero is totally roll!! since megaman is in the 22nd century as MMX it makes sence dr. light would upgrade roll too, and you see that they're both blonde, wear red and if you say zero's name real slow it becomes SEE-ROLL!"
TWO MEN GO IN, ONE MAN COMES OUT!
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During this time, Dr. Cain suffered from harsh mental degeneration, and required an implant to keep from suffering total brain death. Some time after he got the implant, he contracted the Maverick program himself. He retreated to keep himself from going mad in the public scene while the program began to spread into his organic brain. And it became his doom.
In the aftermath of the Eurasia and Gate incidents, the scientists of the time designed the Cyber-elves to help contain the Maverick outbreak. One such Cyber-elf, the Mother Elf, was used to neutralize the program in all Reploids. Dr. Cain - who now emerged under the name Dr. Weil - took control of the Mother Elf and reprogrammed her, transforming her into the Dark Elf. Dr. Weil used his retained genius to fully repair Zero's old body - the one that was destroyed after the Eurasia incident - and give it a new consciousness, Omega.
- Dr. Weil is Dr. Cain reborn.
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Now THAT would be interesting, but then Cain always held interest within X, not Zero, and Weil just couldn't leave Zero damn well alone. Of course, personality changes are possible, but who knows; it's Capcom, where zombies don't stop coming out of the ground, robots kill each other for powers, and both badasses & bishies run amok. :\
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-Zero being a girl, but not Roll
-alternatively, hair being a mantle
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dynamo being vava being forte
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Posted by: Hypershell
X:
-All X games after X5 are non-canonical (X6, X7, Z1, Telos, MMZOCW, the entire concept of the Elf Wars, and ZXA all fly in the face of it)
X6 X7 X8 ( and Command Mission ) are non-cannon in eyes and will always be, nothing is going to change my mind about it >>;;;;
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Well of course, if you WANT to be a stubborn idiot we can't stop you.
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Legends WAS in another universe, similar to the EXE series. This is something capcom changed later on, when the EXE series came out. I can only guess that they didn't liek the idea of having three timelines. Actually, it was fanon that it was set in the same timeline, and that Trigger was Rock.
It's a series that talks of "irregulars" that's set in a distant future after the world was flooded, all humans of died and been replaced with artificial creations. There's absolutely no basis behind DASH ever being in a different timeline than classic and X. DASH being so far into the future is different from EXE which occurs in 200X and reuses the characters from classic. Simply put, they didn't change anything, they simply never told us until the release of Rockman Perfect Memories.
Serges = Wily.
There's so much truth in that notion that it falls outside the scope of this topic. The connection between Wily and Serges is far from an ancient theory and is almost stepping outside of the boundaries of fanon and becoming canon. It would be akin to denying Zero was created by Wily based on what X2, X4 and X5 present. The only thing we're waiting for now is for sourcebooks and interviews to confirm the connection.
Some people believe to this day that Zero always had the saber even pre X1.
Well... I could show you some Day of Sigma production art where he clearly has a saber. But nobody is stopping him from picking up a random weapon like that, after all.
X6 X7 X8 ( and Command Mission ) are non-cannon in eyes and will always be, nothing is going to change my mind about it >>;;;;
Feel free to explain how a dead Zero ends up being sealed somewhere in Neo Arcadia.
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It's a series that talks of "irregulars" that's set in a distant future after the world was flooded, all humans of died and been replaced with artificial creations. There's absolutely no basis behind DASH ever being in a different timeline than classic and X. DASH being so far into the future is different from EXE which occurs in 200X and reuses the characters from classic. Simply put, they didn't change anything, they simply never told us until the release of Rockman Perfect Memories.
To be fair, I don't recall L1 mentioning Aberrant Units (Irregulars) specifically, despite revealing Trigger's background as a "Purifier model". But certainly a water-logged planet with no set date does not require any such AU.
Also, the X5/L2 reference was kinda obvious given that the two games were released in the same year. Although it's been made just as obvious that Inticreates considers DASH/Legends the eventual future no matter which timeline fork you're applying, so these days that reference is considered obsolete.
There's so much truth in that notion that it falls outside the scope of this topic. The connection between Wily and Serges is far from an ancient theory and is almost stepping outside of the boundaries of fanon and becoming canon. It would be akin to denying Zero was created by Wily based on what X2, X4 and X5 present. The only thing we're waiting for now is for sourcebooks and interviews to confirm the connection.
The funny thing is, back in the days of X2 I'd have never believed that Serges was Wily. Of course, there was little indication back then that Wily built Zero in the first place (especially outside of Japan). Once his story had been further fleshed out, and you look back and realize how critical Serges is to the Zero we're familiar with afterwards (rebuilt entire body sans Control Chip; invented Z-Saber), and throw in a handfull (four, I believe) of fan-translated tidbits that didn't make it to U.S. scripts/materials, and it becomes fairly obvious that there is in fact a connection between Serges and Wily.
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It's a series that talks of "irregulars" that's set in a distant future after the world was flooded, all humans of died and been replaced with artificial creations. There's absolutely no basis behind DASH ever being in a different timeline than classic and X. DASH being so far into the future is different from EXE which occurs in 200X and reuses the characters from classic. Simply put, they didn't change anything, they simply never told us until the release of Rockman Perfect Memories.
Oh, come on now. "Absolutel no basis"? How about the numerous cameos, Rock being names after a comic book character, the main characters being (coincidentally) named "Rock" and "Roll", the complete lack of any ties to the previous series other than it's name colliding with absolutely NO official verification of any ties does fanon make. I won't argue that it's tied NOW. It definately is tied now and I'll even go as far as to say that they're even making some steps towards tying it futher since they said it was tied. But back then is a totally different story. Back then it's pretty clearly a new continuity.
There's so much truth in that notion that it falls outside the scope of this topic. The connection between Wily and Serges is far from an ancient theory and is almost stepping outside of the boundaries of fanon and becoming canon. It would be akin to denying Zero was created by Wily based on what X2, X4 and X5 present. The only thing we're waiting for now is for sourcebooks and interviews to confirm the connection.
In other words, we're waiting on actual official word that it's true. Serges isn't exactly a reacurring character here, so unless Maverick Hunter X2 is made, this is unlikely to happen. Serges = Wily does make sense, but Capcom's never said anything. Which is why it's fanon.
X4 and X5 show Wily's silluette. Your stronger claim is solely going with X2. Then you'd be right, it wouldn't be enough proof to say Zero was made by Wily if we just went with X2 and nothing else.
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While we're on the subject of Legends, Mandi mentioned that someone had said that Legends was a prequel to the Classic series, on the basis of all the treasure chests and seemingly less advanced technology.
Not having completed Legends 2, I dunno whether or not the Carbon Reinitialization Program got fragged for good (I know Data sent the big monolith thingy back to Eden). And I'm pretty sure Terra is perma-flooded.
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Back then it's pretty clearly a new continuity.
Back then we did not even have any basis of what constitutes a new continuity, easter-eggs thrown in by Capcom doesn't really mean a thing. Look at ZX for instance, Rockman's a comic book character there too. Not to mention the coincidental names of the Sage Trinity.
Serges isn't exactly a reacurring character here
Isoc begs to differ... heck, Wily begs to differ. >.>
But.. I'm talking about a connection, not necessarily that Serges himself is Wily. Serges spoke of Dr. Right and his robotic memento, and Serges was directly likened to being of equal genius as 'the legendary mad scientist', this is in the game where suddenly Sigma is able to make broken up phrases like "Last of Wily Number." However, you can't deny that things get even more eyebrow raising with Isoc's appearance. Isoc.. a complete enigma that the sourcebooks won't even explain. His past is as mysterious as his fate... So, when it comes to Isoc and Serges actually being Wily... now we have two people that look like Wily, are as smart as Wily, know Zero inside out, that have done the impossible, combined with Inafune's statement that Wily was brought back by the Virus... hot damn. When you start summing up all the hints that are dropped, it's really X5 level of being in your face.
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seriously i know x 6 - 8 are offically cannon i just choose to ignore them, i just didnt like them. also if i remember right... Inafune meant to end it at X 5 then capcom went and created x 6 without him knowing about it.
Anyway im sorry i dont mean to start a fight here. @.@
as for anicent theories from back then i remember a few kids at school having some weird theories one of which was that X was Ryu and Zero was Ken. >>0
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Legends: Sheer number of easter eggs along with everything else. You really have to twist a lot of minor plot elements around to make even a small connection to the series at that point. Author intent is clearly to make a new continuity.
Serges: Ah, well, I'm talking a more literal "is Wily". And, back then, it would be based on his appearance and "scientist" status than anything else. Maybe that's where we're going wrong here. As for Isoc, I never brought him up because I do believe there's enough to say that he is Wily.
But as for Serges, well ... when you have to connect the dots like that, it's where canon crosses the line and becomes fanon, IMHO. If and when Capcom confirms it, I think you'll have a pretty solid case for it being part of a master plan. But, right now ... it's too vage to call (by a thin margin, as I admit it makes sense). And since Serges is unlikely to ever be followed up on again, I'll err on the safe side and say that he is not Wily.
Truly, I think the real differece between our cases is exactly how much credit we give Capcom.
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Well... I could show you some Day of Sigma production art where he clearly has a saber. But nobody is stopping him from picking up a random weapon like that, after all.
actually, all bickering and everything aside, Id like to see that Concept art if you wouldnt mind.
also, X4 DOES suggest that he had l33t skillz with awords before X2, as he can make a metal pipe clash against a lightsaber. 8D
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I've seen that art, but I never bothered to save it...
Inafune meant to end it at X 5 then capcom went and created x 6 without him knowing about it.
*smacks Obdulio with his magical talking fish*
First of all, Inafune didn't produce X5 either, he was merely consulted with it. Secondly, he was describing his initial reaction WHILE THE GAME WAS STILL IN DEVELOPMENT. As we have been over several times already, Z1 in its finished form makes no sense following X5 directly. This issue was spotted and addressed before either X6 or Z1 saw release, and pre-release concept =/= canonical continuity. So that point is completely moot.
Legends: Sheer number of easter eggs along with everything else. You really have to twist a lot of minor plot elements around to make even a small connection to the series at that point. Author intent is clearly to make a new continuity.
That something is not established does not mean that it's invalid. You're merely justifying an assumption, but your perception of what is likely by no means indicates author intent.
Some of the easter-eggs you pointed out (cartoons and comics) are from L2, the same game which also established Irregulars and Elysium, which X5 references. By then the connection is far more solidified than L1, even if still vague, and as such your argument is invalid. The only easter eggs that I recall in L1 are the X-Buster and Z-Saber (Zetsaber) items, Roll, and Wily's boat shop (I'm not counting MegaMan's name because that's the name of the series). However, an easter egg does not constitute an AU. And I'm not sure if this is exclusive to the U.S. or not, but the game even breaks the fourth wall with its own title if you examine the shelves.
Author intent is that Legends is "disconnected" from the other series in that there was no clear story-relevant tie-in, but an AU means that it can never exist within the current continuity due to conflicting events, there are no such events within Legends. Legends has no stated timeframe, and takes place on a flooded planet which is a common "doomsday" scenario, and also is in a world where ancient technology surpasses the present. So not only is the claim of an AU, even at L1's timeframe, complete fanon, it is also highly questionable considering that the timeframe if AT ALL relevant to Earth appears to be an extremely distant future. All of this at the time of L1 is unconfirmed, possibly unaddressed by the devs, but that doesn't make it invalid.
Serges: Ah, well, I'm talking a more literal "is Wily". And, back then, it would be based on his appearance and "scientist" status than anything else. Maybe that's where we're going wrong here. As for Isoc, I never brought him up because I do believe there's enough to say that he is Wily.
Well, Serges is as much Wily as Isoc is. They are Wily for the intents and purposes of the story, but they are also Reploids. Whether his digitized consciousness is jumping ship, or they're remote avatars, or whatever the hell the details there are, that's a whole other bag of chips.
But as for Serges, well ... when you have to connect the dots like that, it's where canon crosses the line and becomes fanon, IMHO. If and when Capcom confirms it, I think you'll have a pretty solid case for it being part of a master plan. But, right now ... it's too vage to call (by a thin margin, as I admit it makes sense). And since Serges is unlikely to ever be followed up on again, I'll err on the safe side and say that he is not Wily.
While we're on the topic of "connecting the dots", here's the tidbits that didn't make it to the U.S. In other words, stuff that the Japanese (you know, where these games come from) had from the word go:
-X2, which introduces Serges, happens to also include the first "Wily hint" of the X-series, which is to say the first syllable of his name when Sigma references Zero at the death speech (slightly less vague than our version which offers no name fragments, merely a "Doctor"). So if you're thinking who Sigma is referring to there is something retroactive after X4/Power Fighters, think again.
-Japanese books compare Serges's super-genius nature to the "legendary scientist" of old.
-In the Japanese script, Serges is the *ONLY* character besides Light to ever refer to X as "Rockman."
-Also in the Japanese script, Serges is the only character to reference Dr. Light as X's creator. And he brings that up because he has issues with being beaten by a creation of Light's.
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Theres SERIOUSLY more to associate Serges with Wily than Isoc. yet people say "meeeeh Isoc sure, but Serges im not suuuuure~"
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I think they both have plenty. Beat High Max (before Gate's Lab) as Zero, and it's pretty damn hard to argue against that one.
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Not as strong as the disembodied voice after he is "erased"
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I was trying to find this production sketch of Zero from MHX that XEBEC had grouped in with some of the Mega Man BN anime, and well, I even ended up butting up on a dickgirl picture of drill hair.
[tornado fang] this [parasitic bomb].
I found some stuff though that's remotely interesting in the proccess, I'll be posting it in the X section.
As far as rumors that started when the Internet was starting to catch on, some guy had a petition that was merely a huge ad for his page saying that Capcom deliberately killed 2D Mega Man in favor of Mega Man Legends and that we had to take up on arms and fight this atrocity.
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Out of curiosity, am I the only one who thinks it would be better, story wise, to have Dr. Wily just simply having built Zero as his final act of defiance, and simply remain dead?
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Out of curiosity, am I the only one who thinks it would be better, story wise, to have Dr. Wily just simply having built Zero as his final act of defiance, and simply remain dead?
Honestly, this would have been cool, but all the theories presented so far hardly hint at Wily being outright alive. It seems more like he just has a lasting and somewhat malicious will that superseded death.
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I really wish he didn't. I'd honestly prefer it if he died after creating Zero.
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Well, technically, He did. I like to think of X series wily in the same way as X series Light. Dead, yet somewhat alive.
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@Hypershell: Geez, dude, calm down a touch.
I'm sorry, but even after your paragraphs it still seems to be a stretch. Like I said to Zan, the difference between us is the amount of credit we give to Capcom.
Edit: I wish Wily stayed dead too. And you can toss Light in that statement as well since his hologram is still quite active. Touching in X1, kinda dragged on towards the end.
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I still think the X series could have benefited without the virus, period. But that's just me.
As for Fanon... I remember when RMZ was first shown, everyone was clamouring that that wasn't Zero, and some went so far as to say that there was no way in hell that it was actually him. Funny how they were partially right in the end XD (in regards to his body, I mean).
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Come now, we've had the Virus since Sigma's last form in X2.
It's just what they've done (and not done) with it that has made it terrible.
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I still think the X series could have benefited without the virus, period. But that's just me.
Geez, if we talk about things the X series could do without this will become a very long list indeed! >BD
Good call! Toss every virus in the list. It was a fun idea in X3, but somewhere along the line we needed an essay to get the idea straight.
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It was a fun idea in X3, but somewhere along the line we needed an essay to get the idea straight.
If you ever can get it straight; Capcom's latest hint that X might've been the source of all the problems and not Zero really throws a wrench into the works.
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If you ever can get it straight; Capcom's latest hint that X might've been the source of all the problems and not Zero really throws a wrench into the works.
Oh, I'm quite aware of that.
You know, way back when X1 came out, I thought it was a rather poiniant philosophical point that the robots were, essentially, rebelling against slavery. I dunno if this point was every truly intended anymore, but I kinda wish they stuck to the simplicity of that rather than go nuts with all sorta of different explanations.
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Oh, I'm quite aware of that.
You know, way back when X1 came out, I thought it was a rather poiniant philosophical point that the robots were, essentially, rebelling against slavery. I dunno if this point was every truly intended anymore, but I kinda wish they stuck to the simplicity of that rather than go nuts with all sorta of different explanations.
This is why I though the virus was stupid, and still do. I live with it though :P
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You know, way back when X1 came out, I thought it was a rather poignant philosophical point that the robots were, essentially, rebelling against slavery.
Ironic; MM9 would have cemented that idea.
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I don't think slavery has been an issue in any MegaMan game, save possibly 9. Prejudice, certainly, there's tons of that in Zero and in X4. But the X-series as a whole is more about survival of the fittest. The philosophy behind Mavericks isn't to "liberate" themselves, but rather that the "inferior" humans are limiting their growth and should thus be annihilated. Cain's journal made that pretty clear, and all the way up to XCM I've seen nothing clash with it.
Out of curiosity, am I the only one who thinks it would be better, story wise, to have Dr. Wily just simply having built Zero as his final act of defiance, and simply remain dead?
Well, I don't. Wily for the most part stays in the background as it is; he only ever appears when Zero's survival is at stake. For him to be rebuilt any other way would downplay the "mysterious body" aspect of X and Zero, which messes with a lot of story points, especially pre-XCM. Wily hasn't been milked by any means; quite the contrary, the fact that he was dropped like a rock actually bugs quite a few fans.
As for Light, I like the contribution story-wise in X4-6, and X8. It adds a sort of otherworldly aspect to the series, not to mention a unique perspective. This is what I like about the "sentient" holograms. The "recorded" ones, such as X7's, contribute absolutely nothing when used so late in the story. They are senseless and forgettable.
As far as rumors that started when the Internet was starting to catch on, some guy had a petition that was merely a huge ad for his page saying that Capcom deliberately killed 2D Mega Man in favor of Mega Man Legends and that we had to take up on arms and fight this atrocity.
KILL HIM
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Ironic; MM9 would have cemented that idea.
I like the Zero series much better for this point. The lines between good and evil there were very effectively blurred, IMHO.
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I guess I'm just naive, I don't see much blur in genocide.
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I guess I'm just naive, I don't see much blur in genocide.
Well, Harpulia is on the "genocide" side, but he's a conflicted sort of guy. And then you have Elipso and the the guiy in Z4 (who'se name escapes me now) on the "Maverick" side who wind up going too far.
Not to mention the guys you fight are the protectors of humanity. You know ... the guys player 1 fights for usually. And Z1 pretended X was a bad guy in the game until it was revealed that he was only a copy.
Blurry. Not Shakephere, but effective.
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What kind of theories were proposed way back in the day, when the NES was still alive, when the Internet wasn't as widespread, etc.?
I remember first getting the Internet and finding out about the MegaMan series toward the end of the SNES's lifespan. So yeah, there were a lot of proposals about the classic series and X series. There was one site (which is probably long gone now) that came up with lengthy descriptions of some imagined sequels to both series, including detailed explanations of all the new areas that would appear and abilities to find. I recall there was an idea for an X game that took place in cyberspace, and a Mega Man 6 for Game Boy which I believe started with Terra stealing MegaMan's Mega Arm and ended with...- X is Megaman 100 years in the future.
...Dr. Light pushing MegaMan into the stasis capsule that would somehow enable him to be X in the future. That's how it ends, people! Meggy gets shoved into a freeze tube with no explanation, and it magically transforms him into Mega Man X!
Megaman and Protoman were once regular humans. Rock got into some accident, (dont remember now) and Protoman was, and I quote, "he was shot in the head, and then the bullet came out the other side with a peice of his brain." and as such, theyre both cyborgs apparently.
I think I saw a MegaMan-esque pirate game with a story like that once. Rockman Z, maybe?
As for fanon, see Mandi's MM Homepage.
Was there anyone other than Mandi who believed that "BreakMan" was his real name and "ProtoMan" was just Dr. Wily's name for him when he was evil?
-Snake Man's weakness is Spark Shock (inadequate explanation of MM3's weapon cycle, suggested order began with Magnet Man and ended with Needle Man)
This was true in the Game Boy game, though, since it actually had to tie the broken weakness rings together.
hair being a mantle
Yeah, Zero's got a cool yellow cape, all right.
dynamo being vava being forte
Hey, how about Dynamo being DynamoMAN?
Serges isn't exactly a reacurring character here
Isoc begs to differ... heck, Wily begs to differ. >.>
MegaMan Xtreme begs to differ! Ahaha!
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Well, I don't. Wily for the most part stays in the background as it is; he only ever appears when Zero's survival is at stake. For him to be rebuilt any other way would downplay the "mysterious body" aspect of X and Zero, which messes with a lot of story points, especially pre-XCM. Wily hasn't been milked by any means; quite the contrary, the fact that he was dropped like a rock actually bugs quite a few fans.
Personally, I don't think it's in Wily's character to stay in the background. He's a Mad Scientist who wants to rule the world. If Wily had other means, why would he care about Zero? Because Zero is his final Creation?
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I remember first getting the Internet and finding out about the MegaMan series toward the end of the SNES's lifespan. So yeah, there were a lot of proposals about the classic series and X series. There was one site (which is probably long gone now) that came up with lengthy descriptions of some imagined sequels to both series, including detailed explanations of all the new areas that would appear and abilities to find. I recall there was an idea for an X game that took place in cyberspace, and a Mega Man 6 for Game Boy which I believe started with Terra stealing MegaMan's Mega Arm and ended with...
PIXELBOY! I remember him. Sprites INC owes that guy a debt of gratitude.
(http://themechanicalmaniacs.com/misc/retro/pixelboy.gif)
Rockman Z
Yeah, that was Rockman Z. There's vids floating around YouTube, although I can't find the rom ... blast it!
Mandi
In fairness to her, part of her site said she just prefferred that name since she used it for so long. It wasn't really her fault as much as her fans who took her word as official fact. Still happens tot he really new.
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PIXELBOY! I remember him. Sprites INC owes that guy a debt of gratitude.
(http://themechanicalmaniacs.com/misc/retro/pixelboy.gif)
HOLY [tornado fang]ing [parasitic bomb] THAT takes me back. I even remember when he said he was closing shop and all.
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Hey, I just found some backup copy of an MMHP page that still had the "Mega Man's Order" section. Does anyone remember that, when we cared about what the "real" order was that Mega Man beat the levels in in the "true" story? What was that section based on, anyway?
HOLY [tornado fang]ing [parasitic bomb] THAT takes me back. I even remember when he said he was closing shop and all.
Here it is on archive.org! (http://web.archive.org/web/19990508091618/pixelboy.dragonfire.net/megaman.htm)
So it has his last two game ideas, but not the ones I remembered. Does anyone have a copy from even further back?
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when the internet wasn't widespreaded? well, here's the though (although someone's probably HAS already told that...)
1. X is Rock
2. Zero is X' brother (identical with Blues - Rock)
3. Sigma never met X (until X1)
4. Volnutt (Legend) is Future X
5. Legend timeline is 23XX
6. X' final series is X10, (console: PS1) (^^)
7. Rock can wall-climb (trying many times, even equiping almost all parts, until realized that Rock CAN'T wall-climb) (it happened because I'm played Classic series AFTER the X' series...)
[spoiler=Last (but not least)]8. I'm the BEST MegaMan PLAYER IN THE WHOLE WORLD!!! MWAKAKAKAKAKAKAKAK! (... not anymore, though!)[/spoiler]
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THE MASTER IS ZERO BECAUSE THEY BOTH HAVE BLOND HAIR THAT IS LONG.
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A more recent one, from Megaman ZX:
- Hareng is Zero.
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Hey, I just found some backup copy of an MMHP page that still had the "Mega Man's Order" section. Does anyone remember that, when we cared about what the "real" order was that Mega Man beat the levels in in the "true" story? What was that section based on, anyway?
Here it is on archive.org! (http://web.archive.org/web/19990508091618/pixelboy.dragonfire.net/megaman.htm)
I think it had more to do with MM3 than any other game. And that's based more on Geminiman's level needing to be last to make any kind of sence (They really ought to have put the "Breakman blocker" in Doc Robot Gemini's level).
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Well, who knows? Maybe they were trying to go for a "no shortcuts for you" mentality. Of course, that doesn't work after Rush Jet. ???
This was true in the Game Boy game, though, since it actually had to tie the broken weakness rings together.
There is nothing broken about MM3's weakness ring. It's just actually two rings. And the GB games generally do not honor previous weaknesses, in part because they mish-mash bosses from two NES games.
I'm just wondering who the hell got the idea to start the second ring with Snake Man in the guides. Needle Man is much easier for me, and if all else fails his stage includes an Energy Tank, not that the awesome players will need it. Then again, you could say the exact same thing for the first ring and Magnet Man. Top Man is by far the easiest boss in the game.
And then you have Elipso
Elpizo I'll give you, that is to say his actions over the first half of the game. That is my idea of blurry. After that he makes the jump to a full-blown Maverick. Which actually is the one thing I like about him, the fact that he brought that into the Zero series.
Personally, I don't think it's in Wily's character to stay in the background. He's a Mad Scientist who wants to rule the world. If Wily had other means, why would he care about Zero? Because Zero is his final Creation?
If Wily could cheat death and wanted to rule the world, he'd have done so after Light croaked prior to X awakening. He probably wouldn't have sicced Zero on Sigma in X6, either. And he'd have had Zero stab X in the back in X2/X5 rather than openly confronting him. Wily's presence in the X-series is not about ruling the world, it's about his rivalry with Light.
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If Wily could cheat death and wanted to rule the world, he'd have done so after Light croaked prior to X awakening. He probably wouldn't have sicced Zero on Sigma in X6, either. And he'd have had Zero stab X in the back in X2/X5 rather than openly confronting him. Wily's presence in the X-series is not about ruling the world, it's about his rivalry with Light.
I think that's bad storytelling though. Wily's goal has always been World Domination. Why would he give that up?
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Well, even though whether or not this ties into X is speculative, according to Quint Wily does genuinely reform at some point.
But really, World Domination always had its roots in the rivalry with Light. The whole point was Wily proving that he's superior, dominance was merely a means to do so. I don't find the fact that he might shift priorities as he grows older and faces/combats his own mortality at all unusual. It's the same goal, different method. It just happens to be well-fitting that the X-series is supposed to have a more serious atmosphere to it than Classic.
Besides, why would Wily have ever sealed Zero in the first place otherwise?
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IIRC, Zero's primary purpose is to kill X. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember. If that's the case, then why would Wily be in the background, continuing to repair Zero? To further be friends with X? How does that help Wily with his rivalry with Dr. Light?
Again, I'm no expert on the whole grand scheme of the X storyline, but mainly it just seems like terrible storytelling to me. It's mainly my own personal view, but I think the story would be better if Wily died believing that his final and greatest creation, Zero, would kill Light's greatest creation, X, in the future.
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I'm just wondering who the hell got the idea to start the second ring with Snake Man in the guides. Needle Man is much easier for me, and if all else fails his stage includes an Energy Tank, not that the awesome players will need it.
I still call you mad for this. Snake is one of easy bosses, along with Top and Magnet. Needle on the other hand is a pain in the ass, his only virtue is the E-tank and the fact that his stage is fairly easy. If it weren't for Gemini's stage being such a pain, I'd rather face him buster only than I would face Needle.
- Hareng is Zero.
He looks more like Axl to me.
Which actually is the one thing I like about him, the fact that he brought that into the Zero series.
He also makes a nice reference to the world Zero told Iris was only a fantasy.
IIRC, Zero's primary purpose is to kill X. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember. If that's the case, then why would Wily be in the background, continuing to repair Zero? To further be friends with X? How does that help Wily with his rivalry with Dr. Light?
The way Wily is in the X-series, there is no rush. As Isoc says "I can capture you at any time." He seems quite amused with having his Zero hog the splotlight in X's series, no matter which side its on. Watch Isoc's moment of bliss, Zero vs Hi-Max and Isoc's moment rage, X vs Hi-Max, as long as Zero is superior to X, he's happy.
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Eh, in X2, if you let the X-Hunters do as they please with Zero, he's already not on your side. They don't explain what sort of mind control was exherted on him, but with the control chip in hands they did try to turn him against X. Didn't last. Best route, of course, they're not able to tamper with the control chip, so Cain snaps everything together and Zero's around fighting the good fight.
Then ludicrously stupid as it may be to me the whole intent of Eurasia and the virus spreading on Earth was schemed by Wily. Sigma carried out the plan. When our "mystery repairman" fixed Zero, though, it's quite a blurred spot. Isoc knows Zero inside out, "has seen him" prior to him coming out of hiding, and Zero admitedly came to, could move but don't know what happened. My hunch is that before Wily could have his merry-way with him completely or whatever, Zero stormed out of wherever he may have been. But we may never know for sure. Enjoy your Aids copy chip plot.
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The means used to make Zero evil in X2 was apparently according to sourcebooks the Sigma Virus. Which is quite odd given X5, but if the manga is any indication a chip in the gem is probably a nice way to avoid the matter of Zero's immunity.
Anyway, of course, Wily does occasionally take action to recover the evil Zero he created, but he just doesn't seem to be all that active with it. He might enjoy the evil Zero more, but he's also quite content with just having good Zero own the living daylights out of every Maverick on the planet and show off that he's so much better than X. Whenever he decides to return Zero to his evil self, it seems to be merely on random whims and those moments when he feels the time is right.
As for Isoc not making Zero evil, what you say is hinted at in X6, Zero says that when he woke up, he could move. So he just got the hell out of there, decided to play the hiding game, maybe continued repairs on himself. Only to come out once the fake was taken care of. After that, Isoc made two announcements in X6, that he could take Zero at any given time, and in anger he exclaimed he'd fight X himself. With his sudden erasure, nothing really came from that. What the hell he's doing afterward, who knows, but he sure as hell isn't trying hard.
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My post was more aimed at PB's notion of Wily merely repairing Zero time and time again just for him to "be further friends with X".
As for him not trying really hard, whether to blame the character or the scenario writers, I'm riding with the latter. Nothing a retcon can't solve anyway.
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I see the whole thing as Zero needing some room to grow, and/or having kinks to work out in the evilness strategy. Let's be honest, neither X nor Zero were at the top of their game in X1, that's for sure. And comparing the X2 evilness to the X5 evilness is a definite no-brainer for X5.
The whole thing is fun to brainstorm about. Just how well would have Zero's viral immunity been established in X2, anyway? Is he possibly building resistance over time, perhaps to the "impurity" of Sigma's data being in the equation?
But yeah, it's not about evil, it's not about conquest, it's about being superior. If Wily just wanted to kill X for the sake of killing X, he could have done so rather easily in X1 or beforehand, not to mention the whole stab-in-the-back thing I brought up above (something which only Gate's Nightmare Zero ever attempted). While Wily certainly seems to enjoy a match between them, it's supposed to prove something. Now where does that leave him after the X5 stalemate? Back to the drawing board, perhaps waiting to see where they grow from there. And Sigma's attempts at killing Zero? Between that and the disembodied X6 voice, it's a safe bet their alliance ended there. If by chance Wily considers taking Sigma out of the picture a priority and not just a passtime, then I could honestly see him being involved in the copy chip arc. But that depends on how much continuity means to whoever picks up the X-series after its current break.
I still call you mad for this. Snake is one of easy bosses, along with Top and Magnet. Needle on the other hand is a pain in the ass, his only virtue is the E-tank and the fact that his stage is fairly easy. If it weren't for Gemini's stage being such a pain, I'd rather face him buster only than I would face Needle.
You call me mad, I call you mad. I can pretty reliably beat Needle Man buster-only and tank-less, more so than Shadow, Spark, or Gemini. Gemini Man is the toughest buster-only boss for me, by far. In fact he's the only one of the eight that I haven't actually defeated that way.
Snake Man......okay, so he's not that tough. Although I by no means consider him as easy as Top or Magnet, but you basically just have to know how to use the terrain in his room. I guess I just enjoy fighting Needle Man more.
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I don't think slavery has been an issue in any MegaMan game, save possibly 9. Prejudice, certainly, there's tons of that in Zero and in X4. But the X-series as a whole is more about survival of the fittest. The philosophy behind Mavericks isn't to "liberate" themselves, but rather that the "inferior" humans are limiting their growth and should thus be annihilated.
Maybe the point of the series was to show how NOT to rebel against slavery.
X' final series is X10, (console: PS1) (^^)
This may not be as ancient, but I'm sure we've all heard someone claim that the X in MegaMan X is actually 10 as a Roman numeral, so the original series ends with the 9th game. Bonus points if they claim that the ninth game was MegaMan and Bass. Now that MegaMan 9 has put the latter myth to rest, we need MegaMan 10 to come out to take care of the former. (And what's with this attitude that one series needs to be ended arbitrarily in order to "kick off" another one?)
There is nothing broken about MM3's weakness ring. It's just actually two rings. And the GB games generally do not honor previous weaknesses, in part because they mish-mash bosses from two NES games.
But the GB games do honor previous weaknesses. It's just that they have to make up new ones in order to fill in the broken rings. By "broken", I mean that some bosses from the original game's weakness ring were missing, so the GB game had to add a weakness of the boss at the beginning of the broken ring to the weapon at the end of it. Let me show you:
World 1
Cut -> Elec -> Ice -> Fire -> Cut
GutsMan doesn't appear, but Fire Storm was already CutMan's secondary weakness anyway, so this makes sense.
Bubble -> Heat -> Flash -> Quick -> Bubble
This is pretty much what the weaknesses would end up being if you removed the other four MM2 robots, but this time QuickMan actually seems to be a little weaker to uncharged Atomic Fire than FlashMan, and FlashMan's also weak to Ice Slasher, so that can mix things up a little.
World 2
Clash -> Metal -> Wood -> Air -> Clash
The made-up weakness here is Crash Bomber against MetalMan, since there is no QuickMan. But wait, wasn't WoodMan also supposed to be weak against Air Shooter? Hmm...
Magnet -> Hard -> Top -> Needle -> Magnet
Here's the first example of what I mean by two broken rings. SnakeMan doesn't exist, so Top Spin now works well against NeedleMan. SparkMan and ShadowMan don't exist, so now Needle Cannon works well against MagnetMan. All the other damage values are straight out of the NES game, plus a couple of secondary weaknesses to the MM2 weapons thrown in to help you jump into the ring.
World 3
Shadow -> Spark -> Snake -> Gemini -> Shadow
Once again, two weakness rings were tied together. As there is no Needle Cannon, SnakeMan is weak to Spark Shock, and as there is no Top Spin, ShadowMan is weak to Gemini Laser. Retaining the secondary weaknesses to Shadow Blade makes it THE weapon to have.
Dust -> Skull -> Dive -> Drill -> Dust
Now we're back to a single break in the ring. There's neither a Ring Boomerang to use against DustMan nor a ToadMan to use Drill Bomb on, so now DustMan is weak to Drill Bomb, though it's still not that effective. Incidentally, I think DiveMan may be equally weak to both Dust Crusher and Skull Barrier now, but I'll have to check for sure sometime.
Now why did this game need four guys whose names start with S and three guys whose names start with D?
World 4
Toad -> Bright -> Pharaoh -> Ring -> Toad
This should be getting pretty obvious by now. I mean, the selection screen starts you on ToadMan, and pushing Right takes you through the weakness ring. The ending even shows you what weapons to use. Like DustMan, ToadMan only takes double damage from his made-up weakness rather than the standard triple damage.
Crystal -> Napalm -> Stone -> Charge -> Crystal
Just as obvious as the first set. I think CrystalMan may take the usual triple damage from Charge Kick, though, since it's hard to use a ground move on a guy who jumps and floats all the time. What's really interesting is that all 8 Robot Masters in this game have a secondary weakness to a boss from the opposite set of 4, with the exception of StoneMan, who's weak to Ballade Cracker--because what are ya gonna do, make him HALF-frozen by the Flash Stopper? Taking this into account, you could say that Crystal Eye is PharaohMan's true weakness, since Flash Stopper's actual shots only do 1 point of damage, or that Pharaoh Shot is NapalmMan's (or even ToadMan's) true weakness, since you can charge it up to triple power.
So does this mean that WaveMan should be weak to Gyro Attack? I mean, in the game that would logically follow this one, he would be...
Xtreme 1
Storm -> Flame -> Chill -> Spark -> Armor -> Morph -> Magna -> Wheel -> Storm
Flame Stag takes the place of Flame Mammoth, basically. Maybe Spin Wheel was chosen as Storm Eagle's weakness because its charged form resembles Chameleon Sting's uncharged form, but I don't know. What's really interesting is that even though Morph Moth was given a made-up weakness to Rolling Shield in order to create this ring, he's still weaker to his original weakness, Speed Burner. Also, if you follow this order, the only item you'll have to backtrack for is the upgrade capsule in Morph Moth's stage, since I believe you need Spin Wheel to break the floor. (Now how were you supposed to know that floor was breakable without having played the original X2?)
Xtreme 2 is just too mixed up for me to bother with now...
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Now, THAT, I know.
Neon > Volt > Launch > Flame > Wire > Overdrive > Blast > Tunnel > Neon
Go on, make sense of that one. :P Two bosses have their SNES weakness still present in the game and yet overridden. Wire Sponge's was downplayed and Volt Catfish's was completely eliminated. And Overdrive Ostrich is weak to Wire Sponge's weapon, while it was originally the other way around.
Seriously, though, the whole "because x boss is absent weakness to y boss's weapon was added" is exactly my point. You also missed with Xtreme1 that Wheel Gator's SNES weakness isn't Magnet Mine, it's Strike Chain.
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My post was more aimed at PB's notion of Wily merely repairing Zero time and time again just for him to "be further friends with X".
As for him not trying really hard, whether to blame the character or the scenario writers, I'm riding with the latter. Nothing a retcon can't solve anyway.
Well yeah, that's why I was hoping for a MHX2, although probably not as much as others who are more into the story than I am. XD
I see the whole thing as Zero needing some room to grow, and/or having kinks to work out in the evilness strategy. Let's be honest, neither X nor Zero were at the top of their game in X1, that's for sure. And comparing the X2 evilness to the X5 evilness is a definite no-brainer for X5.
The whole thing is fun to brainstorm about. Just how well would have Zero's viral immunity been established in X2, anyway? Is he possibly building resistance over time, perhaps to the "impurity" of Sigma's data being in the equation?
But yeah, it's not about evil, it's not about conquest, it's about being superior. If Wily just wanted to kill X for the sake of killing X, he could have done so rather easily in X1 or beforehand, not to mention the whole stab-in-the-back thing I brought up above (something which only Gate's Nightmare Zero ever attempted). While Wily certainly seems to enjoy a match between them, it's supposed to prove something. Now where does that leave him after the X5 stalemate? Back to the drawing board, perhaps waiting to see where they grow from there. And Sigma's attempts at killing Zero? Between that and the disembodied X6 voice, it's a safe bet their alliance ended there. If by chance Wily considers taking Sigma out of the picture a priority and not just a passtime, then I could honestly see him being involved in the copy chip arc. But that depends on how much continuity means to whoever picks up the X-series after its current break.
Wait a tic...how could Wily have just easily killed X in X1 or beforehand? Does this mean that you're implying that Wily is always in the background in some way, shape, or form?
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What reason do we have to believe that Wily lacked any consciousness prior to X2? He has to have been around earlier to build Siggy's new body, one would think. And what about the pre-X1 Zero-vs-Sigma headache of doom? The ol' W on the head kinda raises eyebrows.
Zero fairly obviously outclassed X in X1, despite a seeming loss of power since facing Sigma (I know Marshmallow Man will argue to hell with me on that one, but I do not see TDoS Zero having X4 flashback Zero's strength). Had Wily retaken Zero then, X would have been toast.
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What reason do we have to believe that Wily lacked any consciousness prior to X2? He has to have been around earlier to build Siggy's new body, one would think. And what about the pre-X1 Zero-vs-Sigma headache of doom?
Zero fairly obviously outclassed X in X1, despite a seeming loss of power since facing Sigma (I know Marshmallow Man will argue to hell with me on that one, but I do not see TDoS Zero having X4 flashback Zero's strength). Had Wily retaken Zero then, X would have been toast.
Then there's still the matter of both of Wily's evil Zeros confronting X openly while Nightmare Zero is liable to resort to foul play.
Again, I still don't think Wily has anything to do with Sigma's new body to begin with. In X2, it seems to me like the X Hunters rebuilt Sigma. In X3, Dr. Doppler did. From the look of things, rebuilding the body is pretty easy. It doesn't have to be Wily. LoL, plus I still think he's dead. As for the X4 Flashback W headache, I always assumed that was Zero's "GO KILL X" programming that was taking hold of him.
I don't think Zero outclassed X, but rather it was X's peaceful and gentle personality that held him back from reaching his full, possible Shining Finger potential. It's possible though. However, in the X4 flashback, I think it's Zero's raving madness that gives him his extra strength, more than anything else.
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Again, I still don't think Wily has anything to do with Sigma's new body to begin with.
No kidding that building a Sigma body isn't anything special, that's not what I meant. That stuff is from Servbot20's collected sourcebook information.
Sagesse (Serges)
Leader of the 3 main Counter Hunters. Like the legendary mad scientist, he is
a super genius! His thought program is believed to exceed even Sigma's, but
because he lacks physical strength, he uses his craftiness to come up with
attacks, while riding the hovering pedestal and Sagesse Tank. He was
responsible for the creation of Sigma's and Zero's new bodies.
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LoL, plus I still think he's dead. As for the X4 Flashback W headache, I always assumed that was Zero's "GO KILL X" programming that was taking hold of him.
Word of God, Wily is alive, he was brought back by the virus. Now look at Zero's infamous unexplained headache moment that transferred the virus from Zero to Sigma.
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Is Wily still alive during the Z or ZX saga? Or even the Legends saga?
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Is Wily still alive during the Z or ZX saga? Or even the Legends saga?
At the risk of Zan smiting me, I highly doubt it.
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I can safely say Zan won't smite you for that one, barring coincidentally named world leaders and boat shop owners. Both Light and Wily seemingly dropped off the map at some point prior to Command Mission, unless a future game changes that, anyway.
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You know the Legends question is kind of silly, why would Wily be alive when the last human died... >.>
Both Light and Wily seemingly dropped off the map at some point prior to Command Mission, unless a future game changes that, anyway.
You know, with Inafune's comments on how Wily is alive, the fact that he's not in ZERO and ZX is a hopeful note that the Wily storyline must be concluded within the X-series.
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You know, with Inafune's comments on how Wily is alive, the fact that he's not in ZERO and ZX is a hopeful note that the Wily storyline must be concluded within the X-series.
But technically, was one ever started? I mean, besides just speculation.
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I bequeath a boot to the head.
*THWAKK!*
As if we haven't covered Serges and Isoc enough, but the exceptionally stubborn need only look to X5. Sigma's partner, appears to be Zero's father, seen in Zero's dreams, builds an "ultimate Sigma body" that is a fairly obvious Gamma knockoff. Not to mention that giant W in the background, and his name in the X5 intro sequence.
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I bequeath a boot to the head.
*THWAKK!*
As if we haven't covered Serges and Isoc enough, but the exceptionally stubborn need only look to X5. Sigma's partner, appears to be Zero's father, seen in Zero's dreams, builds an "ultimate Sigma body" that is a fairly obvious Gamma knockoff. Not to mention that giant W in the background, and his name in the X5 intro sequence.
Again, I'm just asking questions. As a writer, I'm curious about this kinda stuff.
However, just to throw this out there, you don't think that maybe, just maybe, this whole Wily thing is all the result of terrible game storytelling that the fans like us delve way deeper into than the actual people that wrote it up?
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There's ALWAYS that possibility. However, in the case of Wily, I actually think that he's still around. I've been thinking that since X5, and I'm not one that over analizes the plot, not to mention that this was when X5 first came out and I was around 10 years old.
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However, just to throw this out there, you don't think that maybe, just maybe, this whole Wily thing is all the result of terrible game storytelling that the fans like us delve way deeper into than the actual people that wrote it up?
Who but Wily does Zero see in his dreams?
Questioning Wily's involvement in the X-series is like questioning whether or not he built Zero. Some fans like to throw that out there because of the perceived ambiguity, but in truth they're simply not paying attention; the imagery presented clearly reiterated it time and time again. Nobody but Wily fits the X5 bill, and while you could possibly write him out of X2 and X6, you would have to twist the plot around pretty severely to do so.
And besides, to say Wily has no involvement in the X-series is to directly contradict Inafune's recent interview. You know, the same one where he confirmed that Zero didn't kill the Classic-series cast. When Zan said, "Word of God" in his earlier post, he meant that it came straight from Inafune's mouth.
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Seriously, though, the whole "because x boss is absent weakness to y boss's weapon was added" is exactly my point.
But you said the games weren't generally honoring the original weaknesses at all, which isn't true except for what you just described, and maybe the Air Shooter against WoodMan thing. And forgive me for not being familiar with X 2 yet; I thought it would be nicer to play through the two Game Boy games before I started the main series, but that may have been a silly idea.
And besides, to say Wily has no involvement in the X-series is to directly contradict Inafune's recent interview. You know, the same one where he confirmed that Zero didn't kill the Classic-series cast. When Zan said, "Word of God" in his earlier post, he meant that it came straight from Inafune's mouth.
Well, maybe Inafune doesn't understand his own series. Yeah.
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Who but Wily does Zero see in his dreams?
Questioning Wily's involvement in the X-series is like questioning whether or not he built Zero. Some fans like to throw that out there because of the perceived ambiguity, but in truth they're simply not paying attention; the imagery presented clearly reiterated it time and time again. Nobody but Wily fits the X5 bill, and while you could possibly write him out of X2 and X6, you would have to twist the plot around pretty severely to do so.
And besides, to say Wily has no involvement in the X-series is to directly contradict Inafune's recent interview. You know, the same one where he confirmed that Zero didn't kill the Classic-series cast. When Zan said, "Word of God" in his earlier post, he meant that it came straight from Inafune's mouth.
Yes, it's obvious from X4 that Wily built Zero. Hell, it's obvious from X3 & possibly X2 that Wily built Zero. I'm not saying he didn't build Zero. My point is that we, as fans, most likely delve much much MUCH deeper into the plot of a game series than the people who write the stories themselves. Right above, you pretty much just proved my point. I don't believe the people who write this stuff care about their own stories as much as we do.
As for Inafking, does he say how Wily is involved? Actually, I'm curious as to his direct statement about Wily being in the X series. I'd greatly appreciate a link and/or quote.
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Remember when he answered our 10 questions? I think it was that time.
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Remember when he answered our 10 questions? I think it was that time.
LoL, I'd still like the direct quote/link. I forgot what he said.
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6) What happened to Dr. Wily in Rockman X series? Are Dr. Wily and Dr. Weil the same person? Were they ever supposed to be?
KI: A large amount of time has passed between the classic series and Mega Man X. Dr. Wily had died in the interim but was brought back by the virus. Dr. Wily and Weil are not the same person. It is ironic though, because Dr. Wily created Zero, and Dr. Weil used Zero, but ultimately it was a copy of Zero's original body with a different mind that defeated him.
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So, if I'm to understand this correctly, Dr. Wily did indeed die, but somehow he was brought back to life by the Virus. So does that mean that a part of Dr. Wily's personality resided within Zero and that the virus, which according to the MMZOCW says that Zero was the first to be affected by it, somehow awoke the dormant Wily personality within Zero and thus because Zero was infected, Dr. Wily was reborn?
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Then, there's DUO. He promised to return to the planet in Mega Man Arcade 2, I thought it was pre-MM8 when I saw it first before looking at Zan's, but did it happen thereafter when Wily attacked again? or was he JUST a bonus? I wonder, he had the right timing to jump into the X, ZERO, or ZX timeline, but I doubt he will appear again after.
Speaking, Duo's moves slightly resembled Duo's, which is the Meteor crashing and the pummling moves. It may be a coincidence before I get a boot to the head by Zan.
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...What does that have anything to do with what I'm talking about?
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...What does that have anything to do with what I'm talking about?
This topic IS about theories after all, on the part of you are talking about, I doubt Wily had the guts to re-appear after X6 or so, since the virus was cleansed.
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Maybe Dr. Wily is really Sauron, and the Virus is his One Ring. Keep an eye out for any suspicious rings in the next Rock Man game--you know Sauron will!
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Maybe Dr. Wily is really Sauron, and the Virus is his One Ring. Keep an eye out for any suspicious rings in the next Rock Man game--you know Sauron will!
One RingMan to rule them all?
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Yeah, I bet RingMan was hoarding all those rings that the One Ring ruled.
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This topic IS about theories after all,
...Old theories.
That didn't take long.
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somehow I just don't get it...
Wily is "Revived" with virus, does this mean Wily is not "Pure Human"?
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Who even knows? So much about Wily's involvement in the X series is teft unsaid. Sure we know he is involved, but nobody can say how or why. It's all mixed up in what can be assumed and what is actually said. Half of what we think now is probably fanon.
Terribly written. This is why I don't haunt the X series forums here so much.
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...
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It's gotta mean "brought back Wily" in terms of data; there's no way Wily's still alive, in fact, it says he died.
I guess it's a similar fashion to Dr. Light.
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It's gotta mean "brought back Wily" in terms of data; there's no way Wily's still alive, in fact, it says he died.
I guess it's a similar fashion to Dr. Light.
That right there is exactly what I mean. Fanon. I mean, it makes sense, but ... it might just make a little too much sense. If you get my meaning.
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That right there is exactly what I mean. Fanon. I mean, it makes sense, but ... it might just make a little too much sense. If you get my meaning.
True, not to mention it's not fact.
My gosh, Wily could have taken any number of forms. Capsules, cyberspace, virus, wireframe virus, face-in-the-monitor, self-reconstructing robot, who knows?
No one, that's who.
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True, not to mention it's not fact.
My gosh, Wily could have taken any number of forms. Capsules, cyberspace, virus, wireframe virus, face-in-the-monitor, self-reconstructing robot, who knows?
No one, that's who.
You left out reanimated corpse and ghost! SPOOKY!
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Ghost, I can see. Soul, I can see.
Zombies? Impossible, for a number of reasons, none the least of which are medical.
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That may depend on how you define zombies, though.
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(http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09023/x6sigma127.jpg) (http://xs.to)
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That would've been nice if Wily had possessed Sigma for the first fight, trying to communicate with X and Zero, but the syntax was messed up due to data format mess-ups (or however you'd explain Wily saying JUS DIE XXX).
That may depend on how you define zombies, though.
True, if they're reanimated by sorcery, now that's one thing.
But as far as an empty host body being reanimated, the body's support structure is severely damaged and wouldn't be capable of movement, much less a whole host of bodily functions.
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But what if they haven't been dead that long?
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That would've been nice if Wily had possessed Sigma for the first fight, trying to communicate with X and Zero, but the syntax was messed up due to data format mess-ups.
As much as I'm surprised to hear myself arguing with a "more Wily" scenario, I WOULD NOT change a thing with the X6 Sigma fight. Sigma's only been dead 3 weeks, it makes sense that he's not up to snuff yet. Plus the whole joy of that battle (besides the extraordinarily rocking remix in part 2) is kicking the baddie while he's down, something that is sadly lacking in most fantasies period, much less MegaMan.
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Oh yeah, I forgot about the 3 weeks bit. I figure Wily would be impatient, so much so as to even try and fight X with an incomplete Sigma.
But X6's final battles did have a great feel to it.
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Sorry to derail the zombie discussion, but I'm going to write as though this were still a nostalgia thread.
Classic fanon is great stuff. I remember Pixelboy's site, and how amazed I was at the time that he could rip the sprite textures out of the game like that and arrange them on display. Or was it Megaboy I'm thinking of? He had a website too, I think I might be getting them mixed up, but IIRC Megaboy was more fanfic geared. And Maelgrim's Rockman World, I think it was called, with its oodles of Rockman MIDIs. Slash(Man?)'s Mega Maniacs had that really cool world map design, where each section of the site was somebody's headquarters, like Skull Castle or Big Eddie's or Maverick Hunter base. And Generation Mega Man X, the webmaster was called Illumina I think, which I think was the first place I'd ever seen scans of Rockman (primarily X) mangas. I was really impressed by all the unique extensively inclusive character art and profiles of M Sipher's Megalopolis back then too.
And then of course there was the MMHP... So much great fanon. Break Man being a welder bot suffering a teleporter accident. Bioroids. So many things like that which wound up almost subconsciously being taken for granted.
What else... I remember a rumor that Return X of Mega Mission was going to be appearing in X4, based on some early screenshots with "R" logos on it. I think it was the Meganest bee-hive enemy from Web Spider's stage, some people thought it was RX's Limited cocoon or something. Mega Mission was taken pretty seriously back then, even though it didn't seem that anybody in the English-speaking net really understood the story, so that RX would return seemed like a natural conclusion.
That mangas were the official story of the game was a big assumption back then, too. They told the story of what "really happened" in a way the games, being games, could not. Although again, nobody really seemed to know exactly what was going on in them, everybody tended to give up an argument when somebody says "according to the manga, this happened." Some stuff was more infamous though, like Centaurman actually being a woman, or X having a mermaid/pirate girlfriend, and a persistent rumor about the games taking place "Tokio" Texas because somebody managed to translate part of a sign in the R6 manga. But then there were some things just generally way off, like Cain's reported death in the X4 manga, or Teal/Till/Tyr as Zero's love interest instead of Eagleed's. Or so-and-so being overtly homosexual, although besides X and Zero I don't remember who else was said... maybe Snakeman or Starman... Oh, and some Japanese fanfic site that gave full names to some characters like Iris Rose or Zero Omega (heh) that were taken as official.
And I remember there was some Japanese (fan, presumably) artwork of X in a crystal armor and Zero in a flame armor that looked so good that many thought it was real artwork for a future X game. And that pic of a cloaked Zero with the X6 logo superimposed that was taken as official as well, I think the artist eventually took credit for that one some years later.
And the insistance that the Guns and Roses names in X5 were fake up until the game was released, I remember. That Zero would stay dead after X5, too.
"zero is totally roll!! since megaman is in the 22nd century as MMX it makes sence dr. light would upgrade roll too, and you see that they're both blonde, wear red and if you say zero's name real slow it becomes SEE-ROLL!"
Remember that too! Something that always stuck with me was when someone suggested Zero was an acronym for Zeta Roll, which seemed fairly clever. And to think all that was before Roll acquired her swing attacks...
Legends took place in an alternate universe, similar to how the Classic & EXE series differed.
IIRC, gaming mags in the US did present the game that way. Calling it was a brand new world with new human characters (another big misconception, but could probably be considered a spoiler to say otherwise) and such. Actually, the Rockman 10 Years History Book written by Ariga makes the same claims about the DASH series, that its setting has nothing to do with the rest or the Rockman series and uses entirely different characters who are humans instead of robots, as a completely new adventure anime-styled take on the Rockman franchise. There's a chance he had written that before the game had came out or when it was out only a short time, though Ariga generally seemed disinterested in the DASH series around that time anyway. Still kinda shows that that idea was present in many medias on either hemisphere. I wonder if it wasn't a "Beast Wars planet is Earth" kind of scenario, where they tried to leave it open to decide later whether they wanted DASH to be in the same world or not. Or just leave you guessing. But because of the reference in L1's library about how MegaMan was a historic name, I was a fan of the theory they were distantly connected worlds far before it became officially announced.
Serges = Wily
Back then, there would have been no convincing me of that. The US script drops nearly everything that would lead one to connect the two. I don't think I even put together that Zero was Wily's creation until I read about Power Fighters on the internet. From X2, I just thought last of the doctor's creations meant Dr. Cain, and that Sigma thought Zero would follow in his footsteps since Cain built Sigma as well. Which is why Cain would have a backup of Zero's control chip. And that the X-Hunters simply fixed up the parts left broken in Sigma's last fortress, which wasn't that amazing because besides being state of the art nobody ever said that Zero was nigh unanalyzable to us. I thought the X3 manual was talking about his re-creation as being mysterious rather than his initial one, because of the nefarious nature of his revival. And the reason Zero would have to be destroyed per X3's US ending was because they had put something inside him during that time that could still turn him evil again someday, or possibly even help keep Sigma alive. All of which would have made fine sense, with the standard level of understanding back then...
Times have changed, of course. The connection between Sagesse and Wily now seems quite obvious and very intentional, though I'd hardly believe they had all the details ironed out back then, or even that they do currently. Wily coming back in a metal body to revive his greatest work and providing his support to the new main evil character is a cool idea. That they had some strict outline of how Wily's data got into Sagesse and where he'd been during the first X game and even before that, or the transition of how from there he became Sigma's shadowy partner or investigator scientist Isoc, I rather doubt. Leaving mysteries for us to talk about that don't necessarily have a true answer is one thing Cappy loves to do, greatly vexing for those searching for facts, but great for creating controversy and drumming up interest. Well, until they drag it out for too long while making things more and more convoluted to the point where some alienated longtime fans lose their interest and give up on them ever writing satisfying conclusions to what once really seemed like it was going somewhere. Over a decade after X3 came out, R20 still didn't want to come out with a straightforward answer to the Sagesse/Wily question. Certainly enough to cast doubt on whether it will ever be thoroughly and officially explained beyond our theories. That said, I'm still hanging in there, have found interest in the later X series and still have hope for more answers in the future, though I can certainly see and at times have felt that certain plot elements played out to be sloppy and disappointing. Of course, nostalgia is a big driving factor for me with this as well, which made perusing this thread all the more fun.
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That mangas were the official story of the game was a big assumption back then, too. They told the story of what "really happened" in a way the games, being games, could not. Although again, nobody really seemed to know exactly what was going on in them, everybody tended to give up an argument when somebody says "according to the manga, this happened."
I remember that a page made claims the X4 manga introduced a second Zero who would be the "TRUE" Zero, and this second Zero is of course evil, and that he would be the original one and the one that helped throughout everything post-X2 would be a clone. Yeah, seriously.
Oh, I remember the page now. It was ZeroXGold's (EXTREEEEEEEEME! *guitar twang*).
X having a mermaid/pirate girlfriend
I think the same page that said Teal was Zero's love interest also called Marty "KARIN".
Oh, and some Japanese fanfic site that gave full names to some characters like Iris Rose or Zero Omega (heh) that were taken as official.
If it's the same one I'm thinking about, it's Virtual Study Desk / Codename Yoshi, author Ryunosoke Kayama. I recall he had "Iris Thorne", "Zero Omega", "Marty Gibson", "Signas Lancaster", "Gate Renoir"... and the list goes on and on.
The Mega Mission manga girl also showed up there as "Ann Aldworth". I don't even know if she had a name in the manga.
And the insistance that the Guns and Roses names in X5 were fake up until the game was released, I remember. That Zero would stay dead after X5, too.
That was a good one. The reviewer himself for Tips 'n Tricks signed up on GameFAQs to say "sorry, it's legit". Of course, those who knew Mega Man better than Capcom said it was continued bull on their part.
Then it all became a clever plot device that showed us Reploids could have "civilian names".
Uh huh.
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Sorry to derail the zombie discussion, but I'm going to write as though this were still a nostalgia thread.
*hugs* THANK YOU.
And then of course there was the MMHP... So much great fanon. Break Man being a welder bot suffering a teleporter accident. Bioroids. So many things like that which wound up almost subconsciously being taken for granted.
...like her massive hate-on for anything that tries to change Megaman. >.> And yet she apparently went easier on Cap N MM than RS-MM because the former's personality was "right"...On the less cynical side, I've adopted the idea of Breakman being an industrial robot myself, minus the transporter accident.
And I remember there was some Japanese (fan, presumably) artwork of X in a crystal armor and Zero in a flame armor that looked so good that many thought it was real artwork for a future X game. And that pic of a cloaked Zero with the X6 logo superimposed that was taken as official as well, I think the artist eventually took credit for that one some years later.
First two: You still got those pics? Second: Yeah, he did take credit for it. Damn good picture, too. :)
About Capcom's open-endedness: What's really infuriating is when you come up with a plausible solution/theory, then Capcom goes and says something else several years after the fact, completely shattering your previous notions. While not as extreme, Propane (Promes and Pandora) being siblings made my comedic NSFW pic as awkward as a redneck in a toga...but I digress.
I think the same page that said Teal was Zero's love interest also called Marty "KARIN".
Like how Giroette's name was initially "translated" as Silve?
If it's the same one I'm thinking about, it's Virtual Study Desk / Codename Yoshi, author Ryunosoke Kayama. I recall he had "Iris Thorne", "Zero Omega", "Marty Gibson", "Signas Lancaster", "Gate Renoir"... and the list goes on and on.
So my occasionally calling him "Axl Low" wasn't so original, huh? Sad thing is, I actually like those surnames. Goes to show what a dork I am.
I might as well throw a few of my "theories" from 2004 in. Before being able to get very far in any of the games in AC (I never made it to any of the fort levels), I wondered if Megaman lived in a dictatorship slightly less nasty than 1984's Party, if Protoman was somewhat evil (I blame MM3 and MM5), if Bass and Treble were outlaws who grudgingly hung out with Megaman, and if the MM, MMX, MML, and MMZ were all capable of coexisting to a point (imagine Axl X Leviathan, nasty!Tron X Classic Megaman, Zero and Iris as robot Jessie and James, etc.).
Folks, this is what happens when you suck at Classic Megaman.
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That was a good one. The reviewer himself for Tips 'n Tricks signed up on GameFAQs to say "sorry, it's legit". Of course, those who knew Mega Man better than Capcom said it was continued bull on their part.
Then it all became a clever plot device that showed us Reploids could have "civilian names".
Uh huh.
Even better was X6. Everybody and their dog claimed that the Maverick names were the result of some massive mistranslation. Turned out the exact opposite was true: X6 carried the most literal boss translations yet.
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First two: You still got those pics?
I remember these pictures myself although I didn't save them.
Like how Giroette's name was initially "translated" as Silve?
I was uninterested in ZX from the beginning, but I remember some fellow forumgoer of a brazilian board saying calling him "Silve" didn't really match the kanas.
But well, when we were revealed "Ciel"'s name, half the internet jumped on to call her "TEAL" too. Since Babelfish gave you that result and stuff... or whichever other translation.
And on this case here, well, you see the webmaster didn't really know A from B. Just said Marty ("Karin") was X's "mermaid girlfriend, pretty cool" and if you ask me all that remained to be added was "she doesn't afraid of anything".
So my occasionally calling him "Axl Low" wasn't so original, huh? Sad thing is, I actually like those surnames. Goes to show what a dork I am.
I like that surname.
The "problem" I saw with these given surnames is that people said "it's in a Japanese site, they know better than us, so they're OFFICIAL!". 'lo and behold, half the intarnet called Zero "Zero Omega" for a nice chunk of time.
and if the MM, MMX, MML, and MMZ were all capable of coexisting to a point (imagine Axl X Leviathan, nasty!Tron X Classic Megaman, Zero and Iris as robot Jessie and James, etc.).
I paid so much attention to the games I didn't even really know the X series and the Classic series were set apart by centuries. I popped these cartridges in and went on my merryway of shoving yellow bullets down weird looking robot's throats. And I couldn't be happier.
Even "Mega X" didn't really... register. Only when that scan of EGM where Inafune said he set the X series to happen 100 years after the classic series surfaced I was like "Now that explains a lot!"
(10 seconds later)
"And leaves a lot more to be explained."
CATACLYSM COMMETH!
Oh yes, on the matter of fanon... when Rockman X5 was released, most of our gaming mags did their coverage of it. Plot was obviously vague, with the one being the most descriptive saying that Zero was infected by a virus at the same time the colony was falling. OK, whatever.
The fun part: ALL of the bosses' names were the fanon ones. "Tidal Whale", "Burn T-Rex", and all that. They didn't cover how you could obtain the equippable parts either... which there were no online FAQs covering at the time the game hit. Says something, doesn't it?
Even when Mega Man & Bass was released for the GBA, a gaming mag here covering it gave the original japanese title, and then in the article themselves said that "Bass (Slash in Brazil)". I was like "Ok, WHAT? First you guys want to use a name that was pulled out of the comic's arse, and if that weren't enough you GET IT WRONG? Oh, good one!".
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Break Man being a welder bot suffering a teleporter accident.
Ooh, I remember one fan theory where Dr. Wily started out as an actual good guy, but a teleporter accident turned him evil. Yeah... Teleporters can do anything! But I'll stick with the theory of ProtoMan as an advanced police robot.
What else... I remember a rumor that Return X of Mega Mission was going to be appearing in X4, based on some early screenshots with "R" logos on it. I think it was the Meganest bee-hive enemy from Web Spider's stage, some people thought it was RX's Limited cocoon or something. Mega Mission was taken pretty seriously back then, even though it didn't seem that anybody in the English-speaking net really understood the story, so that RX would return seemed like a natural conclusion.
While we're talking about RX, does anyone know if that's related to the "Rx and Ry" from the old magazine preview of Mega Man X posted here (http://www.themechanicalmaniacs.com/articles/mmxmysteries.php)?
I remember that a page made claims the X4 manga introduced a second Zero who would be the "TRUE" Zero, and this second Zero is of course evil, and that he would be the original one and the one that helped throughout everything post-X2 would be a clone. Yeah, seriously.
Isn't that like what they ended up doing in the Zero series?
Even better was X6. Everybody and their dog claimed that the Maverick names were the result of some massive mistranslation. Turned out the exact opposite was true: X6 carried the most literal boss translations yet.
This is what happens when you don't localize a series consistently!
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While we're talking about RX, does anyone know if that's related to the "Rx and Ry" from the old magazine preview of Mega Man X posted here (http://www.themechanicalmaniacs.com/articles/mmxmysteries.php)?
No, RX is just the shortened version for "Return X", X's evil doppelganger, originally called just "EX". Rx and Ry were meant to be some support guys.
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I recall he had "Iris Thorne"
Yuss, that was it. Thorne, not Rose (though every rose has its... nevermind).
You still got those pics?
Actually, it seems I do! Huzzah!
(http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/379/xandzero01vr7.png)
It isn't really as impressive now as it was back when they appeared, looks kinda grainy and pinched (maybe there is a higher quality version somewhere?), the poses look partially copied from other pieces, but keep in mind that this (http://www.capcom.co.jp/newproducts/consumer/psrockx5/) (I can't seem to find the X4 page ATM, that would have been a way better/worse example) is the quality level of images on Capcom's site at the time, even official images tended to look grainy and of low quality, so for its time it was quite good.
Ooh, I remember one fan theory where Dr. Wily started out as an actual good guy, but a teleporter accident turned him evil. Yeah... Teleporters can do anything!
I think that was a central theme of a semi-famous fanfic that also included human characters who hated/feared robots. Was it called the Robot War, or the Wily War or something? Did Maelgrim write that? Someone do my research for me.
On the subject, I remember a lot of fans being influenced by Red Draco's fanfics for a while as well. That how things were depicted in Bass is Not A Fish (I think it was?) was how the original series ended, or at least how it should have. But as was already mentioned, Cataclysm was king before it even had a name. It was just what we all expected, I guess, in some version or another.
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Actually, it seems I do! Huzzah!
(http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/379/xandzero01vr7.png)
And that brings up a whole damn lot of memories too.
(I can't seem to find the X4 page ATM, that would have been a way better/worse example)
http://www.capcom.co.jp/newproducts/consumer/rockmanx4/rockmanx4.html
I think that was a central theme of a semi-famous fanfic that also included human characters who hated/feared robots. Was it called the Robot War, or the Wily War or something? Did Maelgrim write that? Someone do my research for me.
I recall Maelgrim having a fanfic with a title akin to that - but damned if I ever read it. My English was just starting to crawl back then, I could barely keep up an IM convo straight, let alone read literary works.
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(http://themechanicalmaniacs.com/sinistersixpc/imagesPC/mmmysteriespc/nightmareZeroX6.gif)
There's a pic without the logo on Deviant Art if you look. But this thing actually's on my site somewhere now.
(http://www.themechanicalmaniacs.com/misc/retro/zeroxgold-Old.gif)
Origional zeroXGold.
(http://www.themechanicalmaniacs.com/misc/retro/sprites.gif)
The most AMZAZING!!!111!!11!! sprite sheet OF ALL TIME!
It was made by Pizelboy. It was the only one you could take off his site for your own sprite gallery and he insisted on credit being given (MASSIVE change in public opinion on hoe that works now ... myself, I still like getting and giving credit). Everybody had this thing on their site at the time.
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Oh wow, a trip back to memory lane! Thanks, Gauntlet~ 0v0
The palette colors, deformed Zero pixels, and ZeroXGold. So wonderful! 8D
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http://themechanicalmaniacs.com/misc/retro/Retro.shtml
You know, I wasn't gonna toot my on horn, but I made a page commemorating the ancient community when I first made the Mechanical Maniacs. There's a link. Incidentally, it's why I still have all these sorts of images just lying around. It might be worth an update. This topic makes me feel nostalgic.
Except X6 Zero. That's from something else.
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(http://themechanicalmaniacs.com/misc/retro/SPRITESOTHER.gif)
See? This is what I'm talking about. MANY years ago, this wasn't even possible if you didn't cleverly using your TV and/or VCR, and did one of the following things:
1) grab parts of a screen with a camera and cut the sprite out of the snapshot.
2) redraw the sprite from scratch.
But now thanks to emulators and tile editors, it's so good to get pixel-perfect sprites.
Memories. ^^
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gold Woodman?
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Sarcasm aside, it was thanks to color palettes back in the days of emulation past.
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See? This is what I'm talking about. MANY years ago, this wasn't even possible if you didn't cleverly using your TV and/or VCR, and did one of the following things:
1) grab parts of a screen with a camera and cut the sprite out of the snapshot.
2) redraw the sprite from scratch.
But now thanks to emulators and tile editors, it's so good to get pixel-perfect sprites.
Memories. ^^
:O
Seriously? That's so complicated, time-consuming, and inaccurate that it hardly seems worth it, especially considering how not-powerful computers and the internet were.
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:O
Seriously? That's so complicated, time-consuming, and inaccurate that it hardly seems worth it, especially considering how not-powerful computers and the internet were.
The Megaman Community draws some pretty obsessive people. When you consider that we tile rip now and hack the game itself ... Hell, just look at Sprites INC. It's all in peices now because it's more "sccurate" (not totally convinced of that, but it ain't my site). My first try at getting X2 sprites was cutting them out of a magazine.
Edit: actually ... maybe I ought to put those X2 sprites in that retro section :\
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Heh, those sprite rips remind me of fan games (http://www.scary-crayon.com/games/sfmax/) made way back in the day. And after seeing that one pic of yours, I'm curious as to how many of those sprites you "ripped".
Oh, and the "Protoman as a beta police robot" theory...All my brain can make of that image is ARIGA RINGMAN =/= RS-PROTOMAN.
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(http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g295/ZanSidera/NESstuff.gif)
You people make it sound like it's a tough thing to do.
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Practice makes perfect.
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MM9's screens were better than the SNES screens at the time. Much better, considering the shades can run together. There's less to worry about in an 8-bit game that way and it's easier to recreate the image.
@The Great Gonzo
I didn't rip that many. Just one of all the Mavericks. If you've seen my REALLY old MM Group picture then you've seen them all. I also helped try to tile-rip X2 when it was unemuable ... with iffy results. None of those Mavericks are in one peice you know. It's why I rate the puzzle-style of sprite sheets today.
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What art programs were used for that kind of thing back in the day? Paint? Photoshop 3? Paint Shop Pro 4? I was never much of an artist so I only have vague remembrances.
Was trying to think of some other examples of old T/Fs... That Dr. Light's middle name is Xavier was one, although the US Official Guide to Mega Man book claimed that to be his first name. But "Thomas Xavier Light" was just about everywhere for a while. And that the W in Albert W Wily stood for William, there was something circling about that as well.
Some X series stuff, there was that saying that the X series was originally going to be a cop saga that had nothing to do with Mega Man. I know I'd read about it several times on MMHP, but given how much we've been shown now about the making of the early X series games, I'm not sure how that could have ever been the case. Perhaps it was a theory grown from the early terms calling the Hunters the Robo-Police.
Come to think of it, for a long time nobody seemed to figure that the X series would be much more than 30 years after the original. Some agreed it should probably be more, since the tests were supposed to take 30 years and came out green before it was found, I don't think too many people figured on it being more than 50 years. Even though that would mean Rock was fighting Wily for something like 70 years or so. But mostly I remember a lot of people being surprised by the interview where Inafune was said the X series took place some 100 years after the original.
And the various rumors that someone had dumped the original Rockman X demo with the white city and RT-55J in the intro stage. Every so often you'd hear that someone had done it/found it, search around the darkest corners of the net, and have nothing to show for it. It's one rumor I really wish would come true, though. This many years later it feels ever increasingly unlikely, but who knows... the world is full of surprises.
I wanted to mention this earlier, that Mega Man Neo was going to be the original blue bomber gone 3-D was one popular rumor. I remember finding a page showing the 3-D Rockman render where Rock's in the capsule where you can see half his schematics and Rush is curled up next to it sleeping (the one on the Rockman Complete Works 1-3 screens, you guys know what I mean right?) with a big MEGA MAN NEO logo above it. Even though around the same time I think there were already early screenshots of the actual game circulating, but then people were saying how the capsule was Light giving him new armor so that he'd wind up looking like the one in the game.
Somewhat more recently, I remember a lot of confusion over Copy X's name being Omega, so much so that several Brady Games guides used the name, even after the real Omega was introduced. And some debates over whether Serenade was a girl or a boy, who turned out to be something like neither. The popular but none-too-consistent belief that the original and EXE universes represented a split timeline where computer networks are chosen to be funded over robots. Oh, and how about all the speculation about X7's new character, that it was Dynamo with a haircut, or MIDI repaired, or a female hunter, or some character from the original series returned all X-ified... As a community, we do love to speculate.
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(http://themechanicalmaniacs.com/sinistersixpc/imagesPC/mmmysteriespc/nightmareZeroX6.gif)
There's a pic without the logo on Deviant Art if you look. But this thing actually's on my site somewhere now.
http://silverlimit.deviantart.com/art/Nightmare-Zero-4740994
I remember some Megaman X6 SITE from a while back with some manner of custom Nightmare Zero sprites, which were mostly black Zero with purple instead of white, some kind of shades, and some 2 things sticking out of his back.
(http://www.themechanicalmaniacs.com/misc/retro/zeroxgold-Old.gif)
Origional zeroXGold.
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa215/I_am_X2007/d.gif)
I thought this was real and searched for years for the cheat code or codebreaker code. then I discoverd id been punk'd. I was sad. because, it WAS awesome.
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...Axl, a female? 8D And to think I once called wrote his name "Axle". Wait, that made no sense. (I always thought "Xavier" was Dr. Light's canon middle name...D'oh!)
OK, I got three more.
1.) Lan became Megaman.EXE; Roll.EXE was Yaito's Navi/alter-ego. Led to massive amounts of confusion later, when I tried looking more deeply into the .EXE series.
2.) When all I had of the Ruby-Spears cartoon was an advert in the back of the AC manual, I thought it was a pure sci-fi show; I blame the backgrounds of the DVDs, which looked mechanical and Star Trek-esque, at least at that size. Good thing Random Action Hour set me straight before I could watch it and get disappointed.
3.) Axl (or rather "Axle") was in the SNES/PS1 games. Imagine my confuzzlement when I find Sprites Inc. and he doesn't have a portrait.
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This was a fun one. Mostly on the brazilian side of things, although it found it's way once or twice to the boards I hung at.
On X5's final stages, before we learned of the whole Cyberspace mumbo jumbo, some guy who COULD read japanese (yes, he could) said in a brazilian forum: "HOLY [parasitic bomb] THE FINAL STAGE IS ONE OF WILY'S CASTLES!"
Fact, until everybody forgot about it, then when came that lil' about what the stage really was... well, nobody even remembered that anymore.
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whic reminds me, is the X vs Zero stage supposed to resemble any past X/Classic stage in particular?
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whic reminds me, is the X vs Zero stage supposed to resemble any past X/Classic stage in particular?
I play that one all the time.
No, I figured it was something out of MM4 or MM5, but nothing similar.
And it's nothing out of X1-X4, either.
I don't know the layout of the security lasers in that one stage, however; it might have some parts much like Quickman's level. Maybe not, though.
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Yuss, that was it. Thorne, not Rose (though every rose has its... nevermind).
But wait... If you swap the syllables of Zero, you get "Rosie"! And Professor Willy X is a Renegade Angel!
(http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/379/xandzero01vr7.png)
It isn't really as impressive now as it was back when they appeared,
Hey, I wouldn't mind seeing them appear in a real game once!
On the subject, I remember a lot of fans being influenced by Red Draco's fanfics for a while as well. That how things were depicted in Bass is Not A Fish (I think it was?) was how the original series ended, or at least how it should have.
I remember that story title, but I probably didn't read much of it. I think I mainly paid attention to the short and funny fanfics. For some reason I was always hoping there would be one that described Protoman as having a bizarre, unfinished face underneath his helmet and sunglasses. One fanfic I still remember was about some guy who had just gotten done complaining about some video game he didn't like, when all of a sudden Sigma appeared in real life and started chasing him around. When Sigma finally caught him, it turned out that whole story was just a video game, and the guy playing it started complaining about how lame it was...
Seriously? That's so complicated, time-consuming, and inaccurate that it hardly seems worth it, especially considering how not-powerful computers and the internet were.
What makes it seem really bizarre to me is that I didn't even start to get into Mega Man until I tried it in NESticle. That always had the built-in tile editor, right? Anyway, I didn't care about spriting, but I did enjoy Mario and MegaMan, and then I just had to try Super Mario All-Stars, and ESNES ran it the best for me for a while.
I wanted to mention this earlier, that Mega Man Neo was going to be the original blue bomber gone 3-D was one popular rumor.
I had always hoped for a game like that. Well, back in the day, I was imagining a game with dungeons like those in Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time or Super Mario 64, but with a 3-D MegaMan, fighting a 3-D CutMan in a big dark room, solving a block puzzle, fighting a 3-D GutsMan in a big dark room... And I was like "How would they do the aiming system for that arm gun?"
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Related-
I once had a weird dream, in which Classic megaman was in this 3D game/envionment, and was wearing the ultimate armor. however, its special wasnt nova strike, but these homing missiles that came out of its backpack. the stage looked like a cross between Armored armadillos, and X7's tunnel base... it was a cool dream. but very short... :(
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What art programs were used for that kind of thing back in the day? Paint? Photoshop 3? Paint Shop Pro 4? I was never much of an artist so I only have vague remembrances
For spriting? I wasn't heavily into spriting, but when I was I used Windows Paint. Commercial programs weren't readily available at the time ;)
Making transparent gifs was pretty obscure. Few sites actually had them back in the day.
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For spriting? I wasn't heavily into spriting, but when I was I used Windows Paint. Commercial programs weren't readily available at the time Wink
Me and Oakes sprite everything in Paint. It's the best program for the job.
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MSPaint is generally awesome.
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I agree, it is really a great tool to create sprites and such, but that´s not the topic.
Before I joined any other Rockman forum I`ve believed this guy about his so much called facts about Zero, than Zan brought light into it, after I have brought this information on Sprite.INC.
http://www.themmnetwork.com/community/index.php?showtopic=956
That was before Heatman`s board went down.
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Me and Oakes sprite everything in Paint. It's the best program for the job.
Depends. If you're working in 24-bit PNG and transparency means nothing to you, then sure.
Paint has its conveniences (and the curved line tool is spiffy), I just don't appreciate what a pain it is to work with multiple sheets. I guess that comes from being an editor and not a scratcher.
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MSPaint is a spriters best friend.
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Oh, and the "Protoman as a beta police robot" theory...All my brain can make of that image is ARIGA RINGMAN =/= RS-PROTOMAN.
What? No, RingMan started off as a magician who was only good at the "linking rings" trick. Then he became a ninja who refused to use traditional ninja weapons in favor of his old rings.
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in the Ariga manga he was a police robot though. (Ring man I mean.)
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I still use Paint when I'm trying to fill. For some reason, PSP7 does NOT like filling.
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Spriting was usually done in MSPaint for the most part back in those times, as far as I remember. Transparency was a pain, though, no matter what the program.
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I've always liked Paint. It has almost everything you need. Back then choices were rather limited. No torrents back then and speeds made warez sites impractical, so naturally everybody used Paint.
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and like, windows 95 or so.
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I never had much of a problem with transparency - one of these "CD-Rom magazines" that were all the rage here in Brazil before the Internet catched on came with a handy light program called "Microsoft Gif Animator" that made everything so much easier.
I just remembered a rather awesome bit of fanon. This cat here decides to attempt translating the climax of X3's manga. No scans. Just what's happening, and the pages.
And then where it should be "X" ("Ekkusu"), they put it as "YAKASA".
Don't ask me, but if this person can't get their katakana straight, I wonder about the rest.
For a small portion of the community for a while X's "true name" was "Yakasa".
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I just remembered one... Auto is still alive.
no wait- 8D
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And then where it should be "X" ("Ekkusu"), they put it as "YAKASA".
I remember that. I can't vouch for the certainty of this explanation, but I've heard that this had to do with the way "X" was translated into a different language, either Chinese or Korean. I can't say for sure that the translator was using either of those rather than the Japanese version, just saying, that's the excuse I heard. Based on what I've heard about how some mangas are adapted to Chinese and such, it seems plausible.
Speaking of rough translations, I remember back in the day that a lot of Rockman & Forte ROM fan trans patches made up a lot of their dialogue, inserting things like "HADOUKEN" or "KAMEHAMEHA" for Blues' Big Bang Strike and such. And years later, a push for "Retranslation" patches for the X series games, by someone called TDOMMX IIRC, doing a mediocre job with the first X game and just dropping off the face of the planet sometime after that. Good times.
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Speaking of rough translations, I remember back in the day that a lot of Rockman & Forte ROM fan trans patches made up a lot of their dialogue, inserting things like "HADOUKEN" or "KAMEHAMEHA" for Blues' Big Bang Strike and such. And years later, a push for "Retranslation" patches for the X series games, by someone called TDOMMX IIRC, doing a mediocre job with the first X game and just dropping off the face of the planet sometime after that. Good times.
I don't remember whether I was on that game's credits or not - but I was in close contact with TDOMMX back then.
But the lead translator was Boco.
So, "Zero died in vain [like a dog]" became "You'll soon be reunited with your DEAR ZERO!". Whoddathunk eh?
I think that wasn't in the patched ROM itself, since before the ROM was released someone who knew more Japanese came in and debunked that and some other fanon unproperly labelled as such.
Wily paranoia was in full rage with "recent" gamebook info concering Serges and Isoc, so everybody was like "IT WAS SOMEBODY ELSE PULLING SIGMA'S STRINGS BEGINNING WITH X1!".
Editing-wise [altering the ROM structure to accomodate the different chunks of text], though, I think he did a good job. For what's written in the translation I can't vouch since I don't even remember the retranslated script and because of what I said above, but it was an honest effort. Both Xtremes were in the "ToDo" list, but then Boco quit the Community and TDOMMX got that thing we all need to get sooner or later: a life.
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On the topic of Wily in the X series: I would never want to see Wily actually die, but I'm fine with that being "inferred." However, I don't want him to be brought back in person by any "weird" ways, like his brain being transferred into a robot or something. Although I don't want to believe Serges is actually Wily, their tie-ins with him are almost undeniable, like Isoc (Although I'm still baffled by how Serges knows X so personally). As for getting to X's time himself, I think he just uses his handy-dandy Time Skimmer.
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Id like Wily to remain the way he was in X2-X4. this force behind the scenes which observes his creation almost like a ghost. i didnt mind him in X5 as a major element, or in X6 as another slightly major element, but when hes so major, it ties in with Wily TOO much. at leat in the other games you wernt quite sure what to think. then theres Snipe Anteaters speech to Zero.
Snipe- "Heheh. Very well. But you've forgotten your True mission!"
Zero- "My true mission?"
Snipe- "I see Data buried deep within you... Is it Memories of the future, or false images of the past?"
Zero- "..."
Snipe- "blue- The lies that have infested the earth.
Red- Those destroyed and sealed away forever."
I appreciated that really subtle reference. which is how wily should be. as this reference that is invisible and does not make direct contact with the characters but still manages to make his presence known.
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Anteater IS indeed very questionable. X7 passes him off as a person that can figure people out using his cyberspace knowledge, on first glance this is not really as mysterious as the characters of Isoc and Serges. Of course, it is still quite a questionable feat how he accurately predicted certain matters in relation to X and Zero.
If you're going to relate Anteater to Wily, he certainly fits the bill in quite a few aspects. That is, if he didn't get controlled by Sigma, and if he didn't actually give X compliments for getting through his stage... Though, he does very craftily verbally trash X, and it's not like X's success in the stage meant upstaging Zero..... Also odd, he still seeks data on Axl whilst he has been a Red Alert member for some time...
All in all, I think Anteater exists to muddle the waters a bit. Showing us weird old coots like that also can exist without naturally relating to Wily. Kinda like a way to avoid suspicion of Isoc and Serges.
Also, most of Anteater's words reference to the ZERO-series, not so much to Wily...
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If we're just saying what we'd like to see happen, I'd like Wily and the classic series just dealt with in the X series. Make Wily do his final attack, have Light's hologram deliver it's final message and end it properly already.
More ancient fanon was that Wily made the vast majority of his own robots. Turns out he stole at least half of the Wily Numbers.
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It seems that Wily didn´t made the RM´s from: MM1,4,6,Forte,9......
I still think that wily will turn himself into a RM to have a final fight with Rockman
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It seems that Wily didn´t made the RM´s from: MM1,4,6,Forte,9......
I still think that wily will turn himself into a RM to have a final fight with Rockman
We knew about those RMs back in the day. He also stole Shademan, the MM3 RMs, and possibly others. I'm blanking on the entire list, but it was more than just the obvious ones.
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He didn't steal Shadowman per se, but he still wasn't Wily's originally. He also stole Astroman and Clownman, if Pixelboy's bios are to be believed.
Speaking of which, they were written so believably (apart from some stodgy grammar) that I thought they were canon. At least they bothered to explain everyone's weaknesses and personalities.
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Heh, they are not to be believed. They were totally made up by him.
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Astroman WAS created by Wily I think. it was to control the minds of the people who went to the planetarium? something like that.
Clownman he took in, from a cancelled show. he kept him to laugh at his arms pretty much.
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I think he found shadowman just like he did find the Space Rulers
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We knew about those RMs back in the day. He also stole Shademan, the MM3 RMs, and possibly others. I'm blanking on the entire list, but it was more than just the obvious ones.
I really don't think he stole them. Rather, they're robots he made in collaboration with Dr. Right. As SAR notes, they and the robots from 2 are the most special to him.
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I really don't think he stole them. Rather, they're robots he made in collaboration with Dr. Right. As SAR notes, they and the robots from 2 are the most special to him.
Well, he stole them insofar as they were not made for the purpose of world-conquering or destroying Megaman. They were made for different, practical, application.
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not really. they WERE made to kill megaman. though the were not initially built with some of their weapon capabilities, as to not have light suspect anything untill he was ready.
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I still think that wily will turn himself into a RM to have a final fight with Rockman
(http://oakie.purmon.com/sprites/misc/sprites_inc-mmswily.gif)
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They all had jobs. Unlike the MM2 guys who were specifically designed to kill MM.
Edit:
http://www.themmnetwork.com/wiki/index.php?title=Needle_Man
- Case in point. Needle was made to whittle away rocks for miners. NOT to kill Megaman.
Edit: And even if Wily helped to make them, that's about half the work. Light did the other half, at least. So he still stole them because they were not wholly designed by him, and certainly not for killing MM.
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(http://oakie.purmon.com/sprites/misc/sprites_inc-mmswily.gif)
I love Soccer Wily! XD
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(http://oakie.purmon.com/sprites/misc/sprites_inc-mmswily.gif)
I'm pretty sure it's a suit. Besides, if he was turned "robot," how could he be turned back in time for Mega Man 8?
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I'm pretty sure it's a suit. Besides, if he was turned "robot," how could he be turned back in time for Mega Man 8?
It was a joke.
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Always when I mention Robo-Wily someone shows that picture ::)
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Edit: And even if Wily helped to make them, that's about half the work. Light did the other half, at least. So he still stole them because they were not wholly designed by him, and certainly not for killing MM.
Why would Light have any thing to do with them when both have proven to be able of making robots on their own in record time? At best Light approved of Wily's activities, but Wily is too prideful to let Light touch any of his work. What would happen is that Wily would limit his designs for peaceful purposes, create many robots, and of those select 7 to reclaim and convert for combat.
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The 8th is Shadowman, right?
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Why would Light have any thing to do with them when both have proven to be able of making robots on their own in record time? At best Light approved of Wily's activities, but Wily is too prideful to let Light touch any of his work. What would happen is that Wily would limit his designs for peaceful purposes, create many robots, and of those select 7 to reclaim and convert for combat.
Well, now you're inserting your own fanon into the canon material. That's how ancient fanon got made and why it stuck around for so long. People fit their own ideas of who would do what and figure, since it was based on their expert opinions of the official sources, it was as good as official. And since the people were experts in Rockman others generally followed what they said.
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RPM should have its own Fanon section. 8D
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Well, that's how fanon works, essentially. True until proven false. Having some solid ground to stand on is just a nice bonus.
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Fanon in the Megaman Community is especially annoying, though. Because there is no site that leaves their own opinions at the door or labels them as their own opinions. Nobody sites any sources when they post information. And nobody can call people on a logistic mistake because the actual knowledge that's known is limited to a select few.
No other community I'm a part of works that way. I wish I could correct it ... if I could write up a straight translation of what each sourcebook says, and section it off as such, I would. I'm a very big fan of simply laying out the facts and presenting your own opinions as what YOU think and not as good as official opinions. Sadly, I do not know any other language.
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Nobody sites any sources when they post information.
That's because I don't need sources to tell me that Blues is the greatest Robot Master who ever lived. It's just fact! 8D
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I'm pretty sure it's a suit. Besides, if he was turned "robot," how could he be turned back in time for Mega Man 8?
Is that suit based on one of the mechs from the second Game Boy game, or is that just my imagination?
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Well, now you're inserting your own fanon into the canon material. That's how ancient fanon got made and why it stuck around for so long. People fit their own ideas of who would do what and figure, since it was based on their expert opinions of the official sources, it was as good as official. And since the people were experts in Rockman others generally followed what they said.
I wasn't talking about facts though, I was addressing how little is actually said on the matter.
When it comes to the facts, Ariga outright proclaims DWN17~24 as "Wily's newly devoped robots" with W logos written all over them despite Wily's involvement being unknown at first. Super Adventure has those same DWN, plus DWN009~16 as special above all others, carrying only their brain chips around at all times. All in all, Wily is simply using the robots he himself created, Light does have something to do with it (Auto's Rockman Robot Centre lists it as a combined effort), but they're Wily's more than Right's, they're not affiliated with the Right household and Wily had to alter his own creations for combat after the fact.
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Ariga's mangas aren't quite canon. Even so, really, they are "Wily's new robots" when MM3 comes around ... even if they are stolen. I mean, what else are they gonna write? "The robots Wily stole just now"? "Wily's new forces"? I don't think they expect us to pick on their word choice.
If the sourcebooks are unclear on who made them, then it's presumptious to chalk it up to Wily. Nothing I've ever read suggests Wily actually made them.
And why, out of ALL the RMs, would the sourcebooks be "unclear" on only MM3 when they are perfectly clear on who Wily did and did not make from other games?
http://www.themmnetwork.com/wiki/index.php?title=Crystal_Man
Crystalman - made by Wily.
http://www.themmnetwork.com/wiki/index.php?title=Burst_Man
Burstman - not made by Wily.
http://www.themmnetwork.com/wiki/index.php?title=Astro_Man
Astroman - Not made by Wily
http://www.themmnetwork.com/wiki/index.php?title=Mega_Water_S
Mega Water - made by Wily.
http://www.themmnetwork.com/wiki/index.php?title=Hard_Man
Hardman ... Unless MMN is WAY off in their info (and, even if they don't cite sources or give out direct translations, I tend to trust what they do have), Hardman was stolen. I just don't see where it's ambiguous.
I mean, you're supposing what Wily did while he was pretending to be good. But that's you. I think the story is pretty simple. MM3 just ain't that deep. It's a great game, but it isn't deep or complicated. Even if the creator is left blank, this isn't the X series. It's not some big mystery where we fill in the blanks. It's just not important.
And:
http://www.themmnetwork.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gemini_Laser
Gemini lazer - made by Dr. Light. Light did have some connection to the MM3 guys. Or at least Geminiman.
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As I said before, Auto's Rockman Robot Centre, who compiled sourcebook info back in the day, lists the mm3 robot masters and Wily and Right's combined effort. All the same they're always considered Wily's after the fact, unlike any of the robots from mm1 and mm9.
These robots are built by them both in the W1>3 gap in the timeline, that's the only possibility if they're combined efforts. Naturally Wily stole back his own creations from doing labor for the humans. Wily being Wily, he might not be too fond of the additions by Right, but it's not like he isn't also capable of throwing out his pride to go with what works, like how DWN-009~016 are based on DWN-003~008(+ presumably 009~010) However, the fact that alone Wily allowed Right to make the Gemini Laser means he did a pretty damn good at playing his part, if he was in full antagonistic mode, no way in hell would he allow Right to disgrace him by working on 'his' robots.
Really, even if they're combined efforts, I just think it's important to consider that Right's work would really be little compared to Wily's, or better said, that's what Wily makes himself believe. That's the kind of guy Wily is.
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While we're talking about Wily, I'd like to bring up MM6's opening cutscene. When I first watched it and read that Mr. X had been manipulating Wily the entire time, I was all, "Holy [parasitic bomb]! Wily has a boss?! There was an ominous force behind Wily's actions the entire time? Is Wily not that bad of a guy (although still unsympathetic)? What does this mean for the next two games (because I didn't know of any side games other than Soccer at the time)?!"
Then I found out that Mr. X WAS Wily.
[acid burst].
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Oh yeah, that's something I've been meaning to ask. Or something I already asked, but forgot the answer. Was Mr. X a real person that Dr. Wily stole the identity of, or was he just someone that Dr. Wily made up? I think most people assume the second, but I feel the first is a bit more plausible, since you probably couldn't get enough good robot inventors to trust some random stranger who just appeared one day and said he was having a contest. But who knows?
I suppose with that explanation, there should have been a part in the game where MegaRockMan rescues the real Mr. X, but oh well.
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While we're talking about Wily, I'd like to bring up MM6's opening cutscene. When I first watched it and read that Mr. X had been manipulating Wily the entire time, I was all, "Holy [parasitic bomb]! Wily has a boss?! There was an ominous force behind Wily's actions the entire time? Is Wily not that bad of a guy (although still unsympathetic)? What does this mean for the next two games (because I didn't know of any side games other than Soccer at the time)?!"
Then I found out that Mr. X WAS Wily.
[acid burst].
LoL, really? 8D
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Okay, I went over Auto's site and found this:
http://web.archive.org/web/20041029164937/www.rockmanvortex.com/rrc/charg/dwn2-3/dwn19.html
This is where you're getting that Wily and Light both made the MM3 robot masters.
This says Geminiman (at least) is a joint effort of Wily and Light. Which means that Wily still stole him. Because it's not 100% his. Any way you slice it, Wily did not make 100% of Geminiman. Aside from saying Gemini was made by both of them we have no idea what Wily did or did not do in reference to his creation. It's perfectly fair to say that he stole the MM3 RMs and did not really make them himself. At the very least, not all by himself. And Auto mentions nothing on the other MM3 RMs.
Wily also made several other robots and doesn't carry around their brains.
I challenge you to find even one sourcebook that says Wily made the robots of MM3. Make a scholorly reference and I shall concede this minor point which I said offhandedly. I' m not very interested in generating a plausable scenario based on various elements Capcom has put in place ... I'm much more interested in what Capcom has said. Nothing but the facts. Can you reference them saying, outright, that Wily made the MM3 RMs in a scholorly manner? With book, page number, quotes and everything?
If not, I shall err on the side of caution and go with "he stole them". You see, I'm not much interested in debates or what we can intuit ... logic can be flawed and this is not our story. I am much more interested in what Capcom has actually said. I am very vested in the RM3 Rms, so if Capcom has said who made them specifically ... well, I'd like to hear it. MMN could be dead wrong when they Wily stole them. Let's just end the debate and cite a source. "Word of God", right? I'm down with that.
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LoL, really? 8D
Yeah, I thought that was a good twist too. Too bad they just threw it out rather than following through on the idea.
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I challenge you to find even one sourcebook that says Wily made the robots of MM3. Make a scholorly reference and I shall concede this minor point which I said offhandedly. I' m not very interested in generating a plausable scenario based on various elements Capcom has put in place ... I'm much more interested in what Capcom has said. Nothing but the facts. Can you reference them saying, outright, that Wily made the MM3 RMs in a scholorly manner? With book, page number, quotes and everything?
If you want to know what the sourcebooks say, you have to ask MarshmallowMan, FireMan, HeatMan or Delta about it. It's not like I own the books or can read japanese. But, just for the record, if you want to know the exact book, page number, quotes and everything, you can't trust MMN , not Auto, nor AF's ole encyclopedia. If you want all that, you really know nothing about them that isn't said in the games. Nor could you confirm it even when somebody supplies all that since you don't own the books either, nor can you japanese. So really, that's quite an over the top and pointless request. You have to settle for some uncertainty either way.
Really though, I don't see what's so difficult about accepting them as Wily and Light's, but mostly Wily's. Just sum up all that we do know:
-GeminiMan was made by Dr. Right and Wily.
-Dr. Right developed the Gemini Laser.
-R and W logos in MagnetMan's stage.
-Super Adventure mentions these robots as having jobs in regular society.
-These robots were stolen and converted for combat by Dr. Wily.
-Ariga calls them "Wily's newly developed robots."
-Ariga drowns them in W logos. Despite...
-Wily was working with Right on Gamma, acting as if he was setting right his previous mistakes. And...
-The force behind the robot uprising was unknown until Wily revealed himself.
-None of them, Gemini included, are a part of the Right family unlike the robots from 1 and 9.
And Shadowman's profile from rm3 ps1books:
ShadowMan: This Robot's data is almost all gone. According to one theory/one rumor/people say, it seems he was created by an alien race and Dr. Wily modified him. Either way he is a Robot surrounded by mystery. His special weapon is the Shadow Blade.
Shadow Blade: A large size shuriken cutter blade. The rance of the weapon is not far, but can be shot in 3 directions. It seems that the materials for it are not Earthly materials.
Even though we don't yet have outright confirmation on them all, the combination of all of the above should be pretty clear.
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O^O I has source books too...
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O^O I has source books too...
Well, go read them.
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Oh yeah, that's something I've been meaning to ask. Or something I already asked, but forgot the answer. Was Mr. X a real person that Dr. Wily stole the identity of, or was he just someone that Dr. Wily made up? I think most people assume the second, but I feel the first is a bit more plausible, since you probably couldn't get enough good robot inventors to trust some random stranger who just appeared one day and said he was having a contest. But who knows?
I suppose with that explanation, there should have been a part in the game where MegaRockMan rescues the real Mr. X, but oh well.
I always kinda thought the first one.
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These robots were stolen and converted for combat by Dr. Wily.
Well, I'm not arguing about that. If we agree on that, I don't see why you're arguing with me.
Really though, I don't see what's so difficult about accepting them as Wily and Light's
None. Again, not talking about that. Of course, if we don't know what the sourcebook says on the matter, this is presuming and I'll toss some doubt at it.
but mostly Wily's
Because now you're making stuff up. Fanon.... in a thread about fanon. That's what I'm talking about.
So really, that's quite an over the top and pointless request. You have to settle for some uncertainty either way.
I don't like pointless debates and arguments. I don't like stringing together unoficial sources (which Ariga is) with what fans think characters ought to be like (which you're doing) and call it official. If you do that, you can toss in an "I think" in there.
I like cutting to the chase. The chase is making a scholorly reference. Which you can't do. But if you could do it, that'd cut the BS. We wouldn't need theories, unofficial material, or any of this she-said he-said crap that's done whenever a debate is called on anything MM. If you're not prepared to do that, or can't, then you should, at least, have the decency to admit that you might be wrong and allow the debate to end.
Forgive me for figuring you did have the sourcebooks. You go on like you do. If you could and did, though, that'd end the argument right away. Efficiantly. Quickly. And, in such a way that leaves no room for error. That's the benefit with checking your sources.
For this little point....
In the end, MMN and Auto both agree that Capcom says they're stolen. MMN says in full, Auto says in part. Ariga is not Capcom and ranks the same as Captain N, just better quality. The end. Stolen. As for whether they're mostly Wily's I don't agree; I think that's just what you tend to think because you like Ariga's designs as opposed to what's true.
And, for the record, I do trust Auto. Unfortunately he doesn't have his books on hand. He agrees witht he need for good souce siting. Maybe when / if he remakes RRC. I also trust MMN, even if Auto doesn't fully. But MMN does not cite their sources and it's unkown how much of their stuff is assumptions. Nor is the entry on Gemini entirely consistant with Auto's. So, there you go. The fact is the Megaman Community fails at entirely seperating fact from fanon which makes me doubt the purity of the data.
But mostly, I was hoping you'd just see if you might have forgot something and to clear it up without further argument.
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I also trust MMN, even if Auto doesn't fully. But MMN does not cite their sources and it's unkown how much of their stuff is assumptions.
MMN's data is contradictory because it's a combination of theirs and AF's encyclopedia without a clear seperation of the two. See MegaMan's biography still listing Wily as his creator.
Because now you're making stuff up. Fanon.... in a thread about fanon. That's what I'm talking about.
I already cited a source which relates to them being considered more Wily's than Light. Ariga is just icing on the cake. I don't see why you just can't accept that Capcom treats them differently than all other Light made robots that took over the world. I reiterate, I'm not talking about the exact degrees of their work on these robots, I'm talking about how they're considered by Wily and the others, both in real life and in the story.
-They're the only robots that Right made that stayed with Wily at all times after the fact, they have no happy moment at the Right household and have not been noted as having returned to their jobs, their combat upgrades were never removed either.
-Rockman1 and Rockman9's robots which received no upgrades, were put in victim roles and were allowed to be become members of the family as a form of redemption of their character.
-Super Adventure Rockman, all the Right robots are on Right's side, all the robots Wily was involved in are still clearly with him.
The above are all facts given in the game, you might disagree on the exact interpretation of it, but it should make it perfectly clear that the mm3 robots are given a more Wily centric treatment by Capcom.
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I just totally disagree with your logic and you're interpretation of the facts, man. Your points seem like a string of non-sequiters with an erroneous conclusion. Bringing up the manga especially ... if you do that then I can bring up the cartoon in saying Cutman is mostly Wily's. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand. And, there's lots of robots that stay with Wily after their use. And what about all the minor robots that Wily stole (and didn't make) for his own use? They were used in SAR as well. Not to mention the idea that Wily liked 2-3 best is just to explain their inclusion on Wily's side in SAR.
If the sourcebooks don't attribute their creation to anyone, then ... that's that. The story suggests they were made by Wily and Light, and that the Gemini Lazer was developed by Liught, I'll give you that much. Although, there's room for doubt ... I dislike fanon greatly and dislike stepping out of the official material and calling it official. More than sayng "the MM3 guy were probably developed by both Wily and Light" is overstating things. And since neither of us have the source, then I don't really see much point in arguing over what it says or implies.
But if you agree that they're stolen then the discussion is moot. Because it all started when I said Wily stole the MM3 guys and someone disagreed with that statement. That's what I set out to say. Since you agree that they're stolen, well then ... that's that. My statement that the old fanon that Wily made all the robots (save for 1 and 4) is wrong stands.
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Hey does everyone remember when Mega Man was going to be in Brawl?
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Yeah. I do.
Fans: Sakurai, Sakurai! Is Megaman going to be in Brawl?
Sakurai: Capcom hasn't contacted us about that.
Fans: Inafune, Inafune! Is Megaman going to be in Brawl?
Inafune: Nintendo hasn't contacted us about that.
Fans: Fu~ck
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Bringing up the manga especially ... if you do that then I can bring up the cartoon in saying Cutman is mostly Wily's.
Except Ariga's Megamix is on a wholly different classification as the Ruby Spears cartoon, for a variety of reasons such as having access to Capcom of Japan's well established official sources and using those for his continuity.
I don't see why you're so fixated on the mention of it, though, it was never my primary point. The way Ariga used it is simply just another nod to the notion that they're Wily built robots. If you want more nods to that end, Japanese Wikipedia outright says they're a joint production by Wily and Light, only making an exception for ShadowMan as Wily/Alien. Then there's the notion in the game's plot that these robots were working in relation to Gamma's production on the mining planets, Gamma who was being produced by Light and Wily.
Really, as you yourself say, these were simpler times, before we established more great robot creators aside from Light and Wily. Given everything I don't see why one should doubt them as a Wily/Light creations. The entire setting revolves around their cooperation, after all.
Going with that, I also don't see why you can't accept that Capcom dominantly writes the mm3 robots as Wily's, whilst they see the mm1 and mm9 robots as Right's. As partial Right robots, they're just not given the same attention as their 100% Right made siblings, for them there's not a single heartwarming moment as part of the family. Not within the games and not in any secondary source either. For their origins with Dr. Right, WHY are they WILY Numbers and not RIGHT numbers? Why are they given the same treatment as Wily originals and tournament participants/Cossack Robots that Wily claimed for himself? The simply fact that Wily worked on them and stole them, is enough to change otherwise DRN to DWN.
But if you agree that they're stolen then the discussion is moot. Because it all started when I said Wily stole the MM3 guys and someone disagreed with that statement. That's what I set out to say. Since you agree that they're stolen, well then ... that's that. My statement that the old fanon that Wily made all the robots (save for 1 and 4) is wrong stands.
Except, you yourself are the one that was saying he didn't make the mm3 robots simply because he had to steal them. As GeminiMan factually notes, he had to steal his own creation who was doing work for society. All other info suggest he was involved in the creation of all the robots from mm3. Making a big point about Right creating them too doesn't change the fact that Wily made them.
When it comes down to your initial statement; Wily made the robots from 2 and 3. Right made the robots from 1, 3 (ShadowMan is an exception), 9. Cossack made the ones from 4 (Wily's behind the scenes meddling creates exceptions such as SkullMan and the combat additions to these robots.). 6's robots are all tournament participants, and 5, 7 and 8 are a mixed bag.
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No buts on Ariga, he's unofficial just like all the other licenced sources. Really well drawn, but unoficial. I'm focused on that because he's the biggest non-sequiter in your points. Not that your other points are all that good. And there's plenty of robots Wily has stolen that are then just a part of his forces. Even the MM1 robots don't stay Light's forever ... you fight them again and again in the series. That doesn't mean they become "mostly Wily's". And what about Cossack's robots? We never see them back in "camp Cossack" again. We really have no idea if Cossack ever uses them again, although it's fair to say he probably rebuilt them for legit uses. We never see Plant man or Centaurman used for his legit purposes. Does that mean, after MM6, he's never used for a legit purpose again?
Just because we never see them in their jobs doesn't mean they never go back. How many times have we seen Gutsman as a good guy in the series? SAR and PU. And not even in a canon part in PU, either. As opposed to a bad guy? MM1, PB, PF, WW, the canon part of PU ... MM7 and MM2, if you count Gots Dozer and MK2 ... For all we know, the world of Rockman has a whole bunch of Topmen all doing their job and Wily just steals one when he wants one. MM1 had several Gutsmen in the last Wily level, so it's not like the idea hasn't been thrown out there canotically speaking. The fact that we never see the MM3 guys in Light's lab after MM3 is a complete non sequiter. It has nothing to do with whether they were made "mostly" by Wily or not. It proves nothing.
The fact that we meet all of the robot masters as villain 90% of the time is just the nature of the series. We never meet Pharaohman in a friendly way in the canon material. Or Astroman. But that doesn't mean they are now "mostly Wily's"in that they were "mostly" created by him.
Your ultimate point is moot. I said they were stolen ... you're not proving me wrong or poking holes in my statement at all by going on and on about how they're supposed to be "mostly Wily's." At this point you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
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They were made mostly by Wily Correct? Who's to say they weren't in on the plan all along? playing along with light until Wily was ready?
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I'd just like to throw my two cents in (and cringe as this thread slowly turns back into "What separates MM from X?"): Say Mr. Ariga uses some canon material in his work. Said work is accepted as canon. Then Capcom changes their mind and that bit of canon gets retconned. Now what? You really can't use third-party material in certain canon debates, that's what.
Sadly, the MM3 manual was worded in such a way that I didn't know Wily was working with Light until much later. But I've accepted the theory that Set 3 was a collaboration, albeit sided with Wily the entire time.
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I dunno about the "mostly" part of that sentence, but they were definately working for Wily until he was ready. That's why Mega's able to come in just as Wily steals Gamma. Dunno how "in on" the plan they mighta been ... would Wily tell them his big idea, or would he just order them to cause chaos and not reveal his identity? The result is kind of the same ...
Protoman's motives are more interesting in MM3 than the robot master's.
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Id like to know the deal behind the Breakman disguise.
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Id like to know the deal behind the Breakman disguise.
It's very debatable, but unused sprites show him turning into Breakman. And Master Weapons just bounce off him as Breakman. His shot is also bigger than normal (even if the damage it causes is unchanged). It points to the idea that it was a power-uped version of Protoman. A very lame powered-up version.
That's another old fanon. That it was a really lame disguise.
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I mean, he dons a facemask and a single centered eye, which I SERIOUSLy find a rather bad "power up" when if he has a single centered eye, then he would be lacking depth perception. which wouldnt be all that good in battle would it?
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I mean, he dons a facemask and a single centered eye, which I SERIOUSLy find a rather bad "power up"
You and me both, man. I think it's supposed to echo his connection tot he Sniper Joes.
Maybe they were gonna change his pattern or do something more with that fight, but ... we got what we got.
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Maybe he just wants to look like another "Average Sniper-Joe (bad pun)" to Mega Man to hide the fact that he's actually humanoid.
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I wish Inafune would one day get a team and fix RM3 so it can be the way he intended to to be. I mean, if it really bothers him to the point of it being his least favorite, there's no reason why he couldn't do such a thing; heck, he'd probably make money off it too, so why not?
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Someone on TV Tropes suggested that Breakman was an actual RM whom Protoman shanked. Proto then wore his helmet to his last (MM3 in-game) battle with Megaman, just for the hell of it.
Sounds like Proto forgot to take his medication that day.
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I wish Inafune would one day get a team and fix RM3 so it can be the way he intended to to be. I mean, if it really bothers him to the point of it being his least favorite, there's no reason why he couldn't do such a thing; heck, he'd probably make money off it too, so why not?
Really, some of the things he would have done are obvious. Like the Controller 2 tricks, Rush's mouth opening when he shoots in Rush Marine, and making Rush Jet more like 4->. Those are the sort of things that left because the game was rushed and ... now that we know it was, it's rather obvious.
I kind of agree with the sentiment, though. It's a pity we'llnever get a RR3.
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And not even in a canon part in PU, either.
The game's very ending isn't canon?...
And what about Cossack's robots? We never see them back in "camp Cossack" again.
The Cossack family is completely different from the Right family in that Right appears in every game, Cossack vanished from the story long ago. Not to mention, Wily's involvement with the Cossack robots to the point that all were given combat upgrades by him and SkullMan/RingMan being his creation. Comparing the mm3 robots to mm1/9 and mm4/6, it is simply a complete break of pattern from other Right robots, making it that much more similar to the treatment of robots created by unimportant people and characters that vanished from the plot.
although it's fair to say he probably rebuilt them for legit uses. We never see Plant man or Centaurman used for his legit purposes. Does that mean, after MM6, he's never used for a legit purpose again?
I never said they weren't used for legit purposes ever again. They are all after all in the robot museum for some explicit purpose. I just said they are not considered part of the Right family. Cossack robots aren't considered part of their family either in later games, only in secondary sources. The mm3 robots don't even have those secondary sources. Four sources and a secondary source go toward mm1/9 being part of the family, Cossack gets a secondary source for his robots being part of his family, the mm3 robots don't have anything to link them to the family.
Also, how about addressing the matter of them being considered Wily numbers, not Right Numbers, despite being created by Dr. Right? Even the mm9 group were labeled DRN after so many DWN came before them. The only difference is whether Wily was involved at all, regardless of exact degree that he was.
SAR and PU.
Battle and Chase. GutsMan and IceMan are on Right's side. MM3 robots do not get any coverage except for ShadowMan. Also, mm9 is the fourth source to Right robots as part of the Right family.
It has nothing to do with whether they were made "mostly" by Wily or not. It proves nothing.
I already addressed this twice, I said it didn't apply to the 'degree on which Wily developed them', it applies to 'how they are treated by Capcom and the plot.'
Your ultimate point is moot. I said they were stolen ... you're not proving me wrong or poking holes in my statement at all by going on and on about how they're supposed to be "mostly Wily's." At this point you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
You were talking about who created them, using the argument of 'they're stolen' to say they weren't created by him. Going on about whether or not they're stolen is something we've moved on from long ago: he's stealing his own creations. The initial point is: Wily made them or not, everything above is about a separate discussion whether they're considered to be more Wily's than Right's. Even in your edit of that initial post, you advocate Right as having more involvement than Wily. There's no statement who did more, who did less and if it's equal. Thus the above focuses solely on how they're considered, they're considered to be Wily Numbers.
Everything below here will not focus on that, rather, it'll cover the initial point of which robots Wily created.
It's a well established fact that 6 weren't his. I've never once seen someone say otherwise. For, 2, 3, and I just checked, even 5 (despite a possibility of splitting hairs with ChargeMan's entry), they would be absolutely correct that Wily made them. 7 and 8 are the only truly mixed bags in the entire series. In 4, we generally accept them as Cossack's, but SkullMan/Ringman is the exception, being Wily made. In 3, they're all Right and Wily cooperations, with the only exception being ShadowMan having no involvement from Dr. Right. mm1 and mm9 are two entire sets of Right robots.
If you want to talk about that particular fanon (Wily made all of the boss robots), it lies with mm7, 8, and the notion that Wily was Light's assistant before mm1. Not with mm3.
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but SkullMan is the exception, being Wily made.
WHAT?? I'm pretty sure Cossack made ALL of them--where the hell did that come from?
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http://www.themmnetwork.com/wiki/index.php?title=Skull_Man
Of course, that is at odds with:
http://web.archive.org/web/20041029161838/www.rockmanvortex.com/rrc/charg/dwn4-5/dwn32.html
but if you look here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20041029163356/www.rockmanvortex.com/rrc/charg/dwn4-5/dwn28.html
Wily also has involvement with PharaohMan.
For the others, Wily is mentioned as giving them combat upgrades. The thing about SkullMan is that he's built for combat from the very beginning.
Well.. actually, I forgot that RingMan is quite the same...
http://www.themmnetwork.com/wiki/index.php?title=Ring_Man
Battle robot by Wily. But...
http://web.archive.org/web/20031230170933/http://www.rockmanvortex.com/rrc/charg/dwn4-5/dwn29.html
Wily altered him during production. It seems they're all Cossack's, but Wily's very very involved.
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Huh. Well, I can honestly say that I hadn't seen any of that information before. Since they all have DCN-XXX in front of their names, I assumed that Cossack built 'em all and Wily stole 'em all.
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DCN "Dr. Cossack Number" is only shown in Ariga's manga as far as I'm aware of. The CD database lists them as DWN. The issue is kinda with when you'd depict them. If they're with Cossack, and Wily's involvement is a mystery still, then DWN-numbering can't be used to introduce them. You'd have to wait until Wily reveals himself before using the DWN-numbering. Ariga has a tradition of showing their numbers along with the names, so, the use of "DCN" numbers was born out of necessity.
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[obvious] DCN's are cover-ups, so Wily wouldn't be revealed as the last boss, because that would be a spoiler for Rockman 4. [/obvious]
They didn't stick with any of them in the Staff Roll either. ^^ (http://www.rockmanpm.com/?p=original/rockman4/staff)
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I'll only believe an online source if it's Capcom themselves, but it does make sense that Wily would know how to rebuild the DCN's.
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Whatever, Zan, you just believe what you want, man. Like I said MUCH earlier, I'll take what Capcom says over what you figure out.
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Whatever, Zan, you just believe what you want, man. Like I said MUCH earlier, I'll take what Capcom says over what you figure out.
You say that is if Capcom isn't the one saying they're made by Right and Wily whilst they're Wily Numbers instead of Right Numbers.
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You say that is if Capcom isn't the one saying they're made by Right and Wily whilst they're Wily Numbers instead of Right Numbers.
I'll just follow the official material. I'll leave the leaps of logic to you.
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I'll just follow the official material. I'll leave the leaps of logic to you.
Except the official material states the following:
MM3 robots:
-Right/Wily creations, with exception ShadowMan.
-Dr. Wily Numbers.
-Modified for battle by Wily.
-Working for society before the events of mm3, with exception ShadowMan.
-Always shown on Wily's side after the events of MM3.
MM1/9 robots:
-Right creations.
-Dr. Right Numbers.
-Not modified for battle.
-Working for society before the events of mm1/9.
-Part of Right's family after the events of mm1/9, sometimes some of 1's are shown on Wily's side.
MM4 robots:
-Cossack creations.
-Dr. Wily Numbers.
-Modified for/created for battle by Wily.
-Working for society before the events of mm4, with exceptions.
-Always shown on Wily's side after the events of MM4.
MM2/5 robots:
-Wily creations
-Dr. Wily Numbers
-Created for battle and other tasks for Wily.
-Always shown on Wily's side, with exception of Blues' army.
I don't see where these 'leaps of logic' are. It's quite factual that mm3 robots being Wily/Right are considered quite differently than mm1/9 robots that are fully Right's. Whatever interpretation you attach to that is yours to make.
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Whtever, man. You like your logistic leaps. I can see that now. I wish you could respect that I wish to follow a more strict interpretation of the material, without wishing to make anything more than very plain leaps in logic, but ... I can't get you to respect my logic any more than you can get me to respect yours.
I'd "agree to disagree", but I don't think you'll allow me even THAT much.
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I can't get you to respect my logic any more than you can get me to respect yours.
I'd "agree to disagree", but I don't think you'll allow me even THAT much.
Spot on, Gauntlet. I share your feelings. >-<
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You know, even if Classic is less my forte than the other sidescrollers, I'm more than happy to jump on Zan when I feel that he's muddying the factual with the speculative (you should see our AIM logs). But I *REALLY* do not see what part of his last post qualifies under that.
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By his last post I was much more interested in just ending the argument, while asserting that I still did not agree, more than further debating things.
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The game's very ending isn't canon?...
It was a trap! The Robot Masters were waiting to ambush him!
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Will someone with translational integrity just translate these pages to confirm if it does match up with TMMN's info (which just by judging Bright and Dust's entries, it probably does for a paragraph), so the Bobbsey Twins here can say without a doubt this source will partially help settle their dispute?
Rockman Memories: (http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/7391/rmsample1xd3.th.jpg) (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rmsample1xd3.jpg)
Rockman Perfect Memories: (http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1893/rpmsample1dd8.th.jpg) (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rpmsample1dd8.jpg)
Otherwise, continue on with your fight to the death and pretend I wasn't here.
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Sorry for not using your nice scans, Miyabi, but fact checking 8 of TMMN's outdated profiles is a much larger task than I feel like tackling at the moment.
I did some looking for other, uh, 'requested' info though. I could not find anything to say specifically that Wily "stole" the R3 bosses. Which is not to say that it doesn't exist somewhere, but I could not find something that did. Still, there are some passages that make clear that Wily did remodel them for battle beyond their initial purpose, like the Rockman 1-2-3 Koushiki Guidebook (1999) on page 105 that states Wily remodeled Snakeman from a terrain surveying robot to a battle robot. For perfect accuracy you'd have to go on a case by case basis with each robot, which might be impossible based on what scattered information exists in the books I searched through. Generally speaking, there's a strong case that Wily secretly remodeled all of the robots for battle after he and Right had initially finished constructing them for peaceful purposes, though Shadowman is something of a wild card. Without knowing who had the technical legal rights over them during the partnership, it can't be said for sure, but I'll say it seems doubtful Wily would have had any legitimate right to remodel the robots in that way without Dr. Right's knowing. Which has pretty much all been said in this thread already. At any rate, the Rockman 3 Kanzen Kouryaku Technique Book (1990) explicitly uses the word for stealing on page 82 to describe the act of when Wily runs off with the energy resources during the Breakman fight. If that's stealing, I would think the only difference with the robots is that Right didn't know about it when it was happening.
That Right and Wily built the R3 robots together I did find a few sources for, the Rockman 3 Kanzen Kouryaku Technique Book on page 75 mentions it along with a hint that something was amiss, probably just to avoid the spoiler yet that Wily betrayed the partnership. Also, the Rockman 10 Years History Book (1998), a sourcebook written by none other than Hitoshi Ariga, says this on page 89:
「ロックマン３」に登場するナンバーズは、ライト博士とDr.ワイリーが共同で開発したということになっているので、厳密にいえば、型式番号は「D.R.&W.N.」とするのが正しいのかもしれない。
Because the Numbers appearing in "Rockman 3" were developed cooperatively by Dr. Right and Dr. Wily, it would probably be more correct, strictly speaking, to call their model number "Dr. Right and Wily Numbers."
Which, he actually did, when Rockman Remix first came out in 1996. The comic even had footnotes explaining that the robots were built by Right and Wily, and were adorned with "W"s because they were working for Wily for the sake of this story. When the Metal Heart story was adapted into his new Rockman Megamix series in 2002, that was changed along with the new setting of the story and they just became DWNs, I suppose to make things slightly less complicated in his new canon.
When it comes to the classic series, Ariga's a very knowledgeable dude who's been in behind the scenes a lot since '93. But don't confuse his game canon knowledge with what's in his mangas, which are a mixed bag of game stuff, other manga artists like Ikehara's stuff, and Ariga's own ideas (hence, "remix"/"megamix"). They are not one and the same. Ariga keeps them separate, we should too.
For why the R3 numbers are among Wily's favorites... As mentioned already, Wily enjoys Gutsman's design a great deal despite having nothing initially to do with it. Wily likes whatever he likes. He's generally not shy at all about taking someone else's work and making it his own. But, it's possible he could favor the R3 robots because he worked with Dr. Right to construct them. People with unhealthily obsessions with someone generally enjoy having some physical connection with the object of their fixation. Perhaps even, when it came down to the heart of it, he really enjoyed working alongside his rival on them. The fond memory of two of the greatest geniuses of their age, working together to create some amazing robots. And the betrayal part, that may have been pretty fun for him as well.
About this "official material states" list though, I don't agree with a few of these steps. In Battle and Chase, neither Quick, Shadow, Napalm or Spring are working for Wily directly before or during these evnets, which has long been one of the reasons for the belief that many of the numbers robots are recovered and find peaceful places in society post-Wily, even the ones Wily invented, and why Auto's pages say rebuilt or reacquired (since there's no way to tell in each case unless specifically stated which actually happened). I also don't agree with the statement that the R9 masters were not modified for battle. We know Wily worked on each directly, "fixing" them, and while we can't say for sure what exactly that entailed for each, it is quite possible that their newfound battle skills came as a result of that encounter, seeing as none of them were built specifically for fighting initially.
Oh yeah, that's something I've been meaning to ask. Or something I already asked, but forgot the answer. Was Mr. X a real person that Dr. Wily stole the identity of, or was he just someone that Dr. Wily made up? I think most people assume the second, but I feel the first is a bit more plausible, since you probably couldn't get enough good robot inventors to trust some random stranger who just appeared one day and said he was having a contest. But who knows?
Mr. X was a made-up alias, along with his X Foundation. When the World Robot Union was formed sometime after R5, Wily posed as this mysterious eccentric rich recluse, donated a bunch of money, and suggested they hold a tournament to 'encourage' robot engineering. Being politicians I suppose, they took the money and jumped all over that idea. Even in their world, money talks.
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Thanks for the info. Good to know. No doubt they were made by Wily and Light, then.
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Mr. X was a made-up alias, along with his X Foundation. When the World Robot Union was formed sometime after R5, Wily posed as this mysterious eccentric rich recluse, donated a bunch of money, and suggested they hold a tournament to 'encourage' robot engineering. Being politicians I suppose, they took the money and jumped all over that idea. Even in their world, money talks.
That reminds me... Have you read any books that explain where Dr. Wily gets all that money when he's a wanted criminal? I imagined he put his armies together slowly, at first gathering only a few discarded robots that could pull off bank heists while Wily hid in the shadows, then making large purchases from a bogus shadow company for more materials, including many battle robots, and bribing a bunch of contractors to help get the Skull Castle put together.
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Crystalman was a means of getting Wily money.
... maybe he steals Oilman again and again?
Edit: To do my part in getting this thread back on track:
Old fanon is that Eddy was made by Dr. Cossack. This wa sbecause of Bob and George and the huge impact it had. I constantly had to remind people that it was just a webcomic.
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Edit: To do my part in getting this thread back on track:
Old fanon is that Eddy was made by Dr. Cossack. This wa sbecause of Bob and George and the huge impact it had. I constantly had to remind people that it was just a webcomic.
I remember you mentioning that in one of your guides. When I first saw Eddie, I had no idea what the crap he was, just that he was the one robot in MM4 not trying to kill me.
Speaking of MM4--since I could only play it through the Anniversary Collection and had practically no Internet, I didn't know Kalinka wasn't a young woman until much later. (And I thought maybe Cossack had trapped her somewhere so she couldn't help Megaman, but that was thanks to not knowing the ending)
Oh, and about AC--its manual had an advert for the Megaman cartoon in the back. Thanks to Mega's stance, I thought he was younger (15-16) than he actually looks (21).
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Oh, and about AC--its manual had an advert for the Megaman cartoon in the back. Thanks to Mega's stance, I thought he was younger (15-16) than he actually looks (21).
You know, that's the odd thing about the cartoon. He looks like he's 21, but if you read some of the advertising material ... I get the notion that he's supposed to be a teen. I couldn't tell you where I saw that, though.
For the longest time I drew Eddy as he appeared in the MM4 manual ... as a one-armed freak! It was such a wierd design.
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where Dr. Wily gets all that money
SWISS BANK
19-871-217
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Yes but bank doesn't mean infinite money.
I suppose he could've pulled similar tricks in the past though.
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Were those rumors about Axl getting his own series been mentioned yet? Because that thing spawned awesome discussions.
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Metal Gear Axl
Mega Man Axl
Mega Man X7
Mega Man ZX Advent
Which one is true?
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You know, that's the odd thing about the cartoon. He looks like he's 21, but if you read some of the advertising material ... I get the notion that he's supposed to be a teen. I couldn't tell you where I saw that, though.
For the longest time I drew Eddy as he appeared in the MM4 manual ... as a one-armed freak! It was such a wierd design.
Ah, this is taking me back again. I remember that before I played any of the games, I read the manuals for all 6 NES games on the internet, which were only available as text transcriptions at the time. The Mega Man 4 transcript was really bad, as whoever uploaded it had accidentally pasted over several pages with repeats of earlier pages, so I couldn't read the whole thing. Ironically, they had also added a preface about how there were no mistakes except those that were in the manual already, and there were also some unnecessary "No duh" comments added to the explanation of the control pad.
So I didn't learn about "Flip-Top" until I read the Mega Man 5 manual. I mused that for as much as the TV show played up Dr. Wily as the main bad guy, he was hardly in any of the games: In 6 it was Mr. X; in 5 it was Protoman; in 4 it was Dr. Cossack; in 3 it was... Hmm, who was it again?
Later I caught the TV series' run on Fox Family, where I finally saw that green, snub-topped Eddie they used as well as the gray form of Darkman, which I now believe were so there wouldn't be so many red characters at once (Protoman, Cutman, Rush). I didn't even notice because of my red-green colorblindness. The regular Eddie still looks a little too tall to me.
I also remember when I realized that Fox Family was trimming the episodes for time, because they kept cutting Mandi Paugh's favorite lines! I kept going back and forth over my VHS recordings, wondering "When does he say 'lunar-powered robot'?"
I suppose he could've pulled similar tricks in the past though.
I'm getting the feeling that the people of MegaMan's world are gullible in the extreme.
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3 it was... Hmm, who was it again
In 3 it was just supposed to be a mystery. MM3 was my first MM game, and it was just released .... but even then I was just like "oh, I guess he didn't reform after all, then". I dunno, I guess it plays better to Japanese kids than to me as a kid.
It's kind of annoying that so many of the MM games have the same plot. But I do like the numbered robot masters.
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My first sightings of the Megaman and X series were in elementary school. An old magazine had MM4's box artwork displayed after an article about video games--and I got the impression that Megaman was some really short older guy (damn midgilicious box art). As for X, that was Xtreme 2--some nice high schooler (the bus was and still is full of asshats) let me play it. Zero was just some faceless, long-haired, sword-wielding, bike-riding entity and Wire Sponge was a deranged robo-chicken (think Scratch from AoStH).
Thank God I got that all cleared up later on.
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In 3 it was just supposed to be a mystery.
I know, that's why I couldn't "remember" who the bad guy was in the manual. :)
Even knowing that about the story, it's still pretty confusing that after beating the regular 8 bosses, you suddenly have to revisit 4 areas and fight some more. I mean shouldn't Rock have at least recovered all the "elements" if he had liberated every zone once? But now the old levels are different for some reason, and there's this new emergency regarding a bunch of robots that all look like this hulking monstrosity and happen to have the MegaRockMan 2 powers. Or it's just one robot, and he keeps getting rebuilt really fast. See, I'm still pretty hazy about the whole Doc Man thing.
Anyway, my point about the manuals was that if you read only the opening stories of certain games and never reach the end of them, you'd think the series was full of new big bads vying for power and Dr. Wily was pretty much forgotten.
Zero was just some faceless, long-haired, sword-wielding, bike-riding entity
Isn't he though? ISN'T HE?
Wire Sponge was a deranged robo-chicken (think Scratch from AoStH).
...Sure you're not thinking of Overdrive Ostrich? Wire Sponge I might mistake for a flower monster or a pineapple or a bag of straw or something. But Overdrive Ostrich is built just like Scratch. He even has Sonic in his name.
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...Sure you're not thinking of Overdrive Ostrich? Wire Sponge I might mistake for a flower monster or a pineapple or a bag of straw or something. But Overdrive Ostrich is built just like Scratch. He even has Sonic in his name.
Pretty sure; I couldn't see Wire Sponge's sprite very well, thanks to the bright sunlight streaming through the windows and directly onto the screen. (That also might explain why I kept dying in his stage.)
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Even knowing that about the story, it's still pretty confusing that after beating the regular 8 bosses, you suddenly have to revisit 4 areas and fight some more. I mean shouldn't Rock have at least recovered all the "elements" if he had liberated every zone once? But now the old levels are different for some reason, and there's this new emergency regarding a bunch of robots that all look like this hulking monstrosity and happen to have the MegaRockMan 2 powers. Or it's just one robot, and he keeps getting rebuilt really fast. See, I'm still pretty hazy about the whole Doc Man thing.
He did retrieve the elements the first time. The second time, and I can't be sure but I do think I am right, is Doctor Wily causing chaos to keep MM distracted while he steals Gamma. You can tell that Wily's no longer concerned with protecting his identity as Doc Robot is mimicking his old robots.
As for Doc Robot ... you'll have to look him up, I'm afraid. I dunno too much offhand. Maybe one of the wikis can help you on him.
Doc Robot's levels are really the bases for the "second castle" levels seen in 4-6. It helps to remember it that way.
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You know, even if Classic is less my forte than the other sidescrollers, I'm more than happy to jump on Zan when I feel that he's muddying the factual with the speculative (you should see our AIM logs).
When studying Mega Man lore, I like to read a combination of your opinions, as well as stuff from Zan and Marshmallow Man. You guys are like the checks and balances (a board of peers as it were) of Mega Man scholarship. This filters all the information and speculation out there into the closest approximation of "truth" as we're going to see regarding a universe fictional game characters.
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Doc Robot's levels are really the bases for the "second castle" levels seen in 4-6.
That's what I thought, although it's strange that those levels were generally more difficult than the actual castle. At least you could save after them, unlike the other dual castles.
Crystalman was a means of getting Wily money.
"Diamond Man? The robot who shoots diamond missiles that explode into four diamonds?" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpP_BKPa5Oc)
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I don't remember whether I was on that game's credits or not - but I was in close contact with TDOMMX back then.
But the lead translator was Boco.
So, "Zero died in vain [like a dog]" became "You'll soon be reunited with your DEAR ZERO!". Whoddathunk eh?
I think that wasn't in the patched ROM itself, since before the ROM was released someone who knew more Japanese came in and debunked that and some other fanon unproperly labelled as such.
Wily paranoia was in full rage with "recent" gamebook info concering Serges and Isoc, so everybody was like "IT WAS SOMEBODY ELSE PULLING SIGMA'S STRINGS BEGINNING WITH X1!".
Editing-wise [altering the ROM structure to accomodate the different chunks of text], though, I think he did a good job. For what's written in the translation I can't vouch since I don't even remember the retranslated script and because of what I said above, but it was an honest effort. Both Xtremes were in the "ToDo" list, but then Boco quit the Community and TDOMMX got that thing we all need to get sooner or later: a life.
Heyya, Rodrigo. It's been a long time. I haven't heard from you in ages. Ever since I reformatted my old PC and didn't get around to reinstalling ICQ, as a matter of fact... Lame excuse, I know. But you're right about me getting a life... sorta. I now have two Computer Science degrees and hold a minor in Human Relations. Well, that, I became a diehard anime fan for a good decade, started programming professionally, and had some semblance of a social life...
In any event, Darkside Translations (http://www.darksidetranslations.com/) is back, and I've posted a little writeup about what happened back then on our About page. I'll give you the non-abridged version here since I know you and think marshmallow man and the others deserve to know the full story:
When I was playing through the Megaman X series, I often found myself thinking I could do a better localization. This was especially true in X2 and X3, where characters were arbitrarily renamed (the most annoying being changing "X" to "Mega Man", which confirmed to me that the marketing department at Capcom USA couldn't tell the characters apart - and they still can't, if you check the back of the X8 box...). I didn't know Japanese, so I tried to see if I could find someone who was willing to translate the game for me. I was a pretty good writer in high school, so my plan was to recruit a fellow Megaman fan, have them do the translation, and handle the editing and hacking myself (incidentally, my SNES hacking skills are self-taught, and as Rodrigo noted, I was pretty good at it).
As you already know, Boco was the one who answered my call. To this day, I don't know his/her gender, but ended up using "she" for convenience because I kept getting the image of an anime fangirl from him/her. S/he didn't mind (or at least didn't object). Anyway, she was very enthusiastic about it and offered to help for the entire series up to X6. She only ended up doing the first two scripts before we ended up getting out of touch, not unlike how I unceremoniously fell out of contact with Rodrigo.
Boco was in the process of learning Japanese and begged me repeatedly for a translation checker to verify her work. Of course, she was the only person who responded to my request, so I had little luck granting hers. I don't recall if I was aware of places like Romhacking.net or if they even existed back then. Either way, no one got back to me, so I decided to do the best I could with what I had.
I recall having very odd arguments with Boco, such as whether Protoman was genuinely evil to begin with (she insisted he was and even wrote a fanfic where he branded Dr. Light as something akin to a brainwashing bastard). In any case, when Boco posted her script on The Megaman Network, I made a point of finishing up my hacking & editing and releasing the retranslation to the masses, dubbed "Megaman X Complete". My plan was to collect feedback, integrate them into the rom, and re-release it alongside a purist version, "Rockman X Special", which retained the original Japanese names to satisfy what I perceived as a purist streak in her.
This was not to be. Though people were initially enthusiastic about the retranslation, that sentiment quickly soured, and everyone began to pan the release - Boco included. Boco was not happy with how I modified her translation, and everyone else was unhappy since some parts read like a yaoi fanfic (which I tried to curb, but Boco insisted was accurate - I distinctly recall her stressing that Sigma actually hit on X before the final battle, and I gave her the benefit of the doubt...). I eventually retracted the release and made a promise, both to Boco and to myself: "Megaman X2 Complete" (or whatever I decided to call it) would never see the light of day until I had done the original game justice and released a "Rockman X Special" we could both be proud of. And I have not forgotten.
Over the past seven years, I have worked with a variety of translation groups on several projects to learn what it really takes to do a good localization job. I have worked on game translations: Ys II Complete and Ys -The Oath in Felghana- for Falcom Fan Translations; as well as visual novels: Haru no Ashioto, Wind -a breath of heart-, and ef -the first tale- for No Name Losers. In fact, the ef project was what led me to meet Darkside's current lead translator. Last summer, I finally thought I was finally ready to spearhead another translation project. I was an administrative assistant at the time and occupied my downtime translating documents from French into English (oui, je parle le français couramment).
Let's skip ahead to the present day. I mean that literally - this morning, Darkside Translations released its localization of the trial version of Rosenkreuzstilette, a Megaman-like game that I quickly came to love early last year. I refused to release a translation that relied on a single translator, however skilled s/he may have been, and last December, I got more help than I could have ever asked for. And I have Romhacking.net and a few extremely talented individuals to thank (all of which are credited on our staff page). The English localization (penned by yours truly) is based on the full-pass interpretations of two Japanese translators and was edited round-table style to ensure its accuracy. Additionally, I had four German-speakers on the team to guarantee the quality of the game's German flavor text (which was originally "Germish", as our resident German native called it...).
So, I submit this for your approval: the Rosenkreuzstilette English Trial (http://www.darksidetranslations.com/index.php?page=projects&project=rks). I'll let you decide if we - referring to both Darkside Translations and to myself personally - truly learned anything these past few years. Feel free to check it out and let us know what you think.
It feels good to finally tell that story in its entirety... And it feels even better to be back. I hope you'll all be happy to have me.
And before I go: Rodrigo, you were credited as a Playtester, as I recall. The first in the list, if memory serves. Either way, it's great to hear from you again.
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I'm happy that you're here in the general MM community again, even if RPM is your first visit. ^^
Off-Topic:
I will personally go through the RKS translation and give my own thoughts on it.
After all, I'm the girl who works on the guides and screenshots (and soon video clips).
If you want to hit someone on the head for some mistakes, private message me. >U<
Good to see you here. ^^
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WOW! That was a quick reply. I'm honored. And thanks for the mention earlier. You learning about the patch here sort of short-circuits what I did in the RKS:F thread, but it's all good.
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I didn't expect anyone to touch this thread again. :o
Yeah, I did get a fangirl vibe from Boco, the way you put it; really, Sigma hitting on X before attempting to tear him to shreds? I haven't gotten that far in the SNES version (PSP--beaten), so I can only imagine it was a very creatively interpreted loose thread or something...
As for their calling X "Megaman", blame the marketers. Maybe they thought they were the same robot, or just didn't care.
I recall having very odd arguments with Boco, such as whether Protoman was genuinely evil to begin with (she insisted he was and even wrote a fanfic where he branded Dr. Light as something akin to a brainwashing bastard).
Blame MM3/5?
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I remember Boco's translations ... so they weren't too accurate after all?
o~O I still say X's full name is "Megaman X". Even though it adds to the confusion between classic and X, it's still the official work on his name.
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Just wondering, with the two translation documents up at gamefaqs, are the Japanese transcripts correct?
Also, I noticed MegaMan X Complete on the translation site, any chance we'll be seeing the X games redone again?
Huh What I still say X's full name is "Megaman X". Even though it adds to the confusion between classic and X, it's still the official work on his name.
Full name RockmanX / MegamanX. But everybody in the setting, with the exception of three or so people just knows him as X. Instead of just converting "Rock" to "Mega", localization took it a step further by making instances where "X" is turned into "MegaMan."
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Maybe they thought they were the same robot, or just didn't care.
Maybe they should have been the same robot.
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Blame MM3/5?
I'm more inclined to blame Ruby Spears. I pointed out the fact that there were impostors in those games, but her response was "WHAT ARE YOU ON?!?"
Just wondering, with the two translation documents up at gamefaqs, are the Japanese transcripts correct?
I would assume so; the entire game is in katakana and hiragana (no kanji), so I doubt she messed any of that up. With my current knowledge of Japanese, I might eventually be able to make such a transcript myself once I zero in on the text in the Japanese version. On that note, if I revisit the project, I will not be editing the US version as I had in the past - Japanese source material all the way. My currently-inactive pet project gave me the skills to add variable-width fonts and edit graphics in SNES games, so it'd be possible (unless I run up against some really funky compression).
Maybe they should have been the same robot.
Nope. If we're talking about fanon, my theory would be that the original Megaman did something horrible at the end of the original and had to be destroyed. Why else would Dr. Light stress that X be thoroughly tested before being activated? He seemed pretty adamant in the prologue: "If 'X' were to break the first rule of robotics, 'a robot must never harm a human being', <b>the results would be disastrous and I fear that no force on earth could stop him</b>." Granted, I know that the ending of Megaman 7 was entirely made up, but that doesn't change the fact that Dr. Light's message sounded panicky (by the way, that was English in the original version, so there are no translation errors).
Also, I noticed MegaMan X Complete on the translation site, any chance we'll be seeing the X games redone again?
That has yet to be seen. At the moment, it's there because the projects section records every (announced) project that we have ever touched. If it was my name instead of Darkside, you would see Ys II, Felghana, the NNL stuff, etc. On that note, it's a bit of a pity that my work on Haru no Ashioto and Wind went unreleased, and my name was stricken from the ef staff list since I recused myself in January (I was sick at the time and the RKS project was beginning to hit full stride, so I had to make a choice). I'm still credited in the ef Supah Preview (God, I hate that name...), so I'm not sour about it. Besides, GipFace did a pretty good job building on my work, from what I had seen, so there are no hard feelings. I'd like to return to that project, but I'm not about to leave my guys high and dry, especially not anytime soon.
Whoops. Tangent. Anyway, since Maverick Hunter X was already released, I'm wondering whether or not I should bother revisiting the project - MHX was superior in every way (barring the campy dialogue). My staff is interested, to say the least, and RKS easily has more text than Megaman X-X3 combined. Once the full version of RKS is out, I'll make my decision. Mint already reports that he and Tanin are interested in tackling it. If I can find another translator, then it might just happen.
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With my current knowledge of Japanese, I might eventually be able to make such a transcript myself once I zero in on the text in the Japanese version.
Saving you some time and trouble here. ^^ (http://www.rockmanpm.com/?p=x/rockmanx1/script/japanese)
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Maybe they should have been the same robot.
Seconded. It woulda been simpler this way and possibly better. 'twas not to be though...
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On that note, if I revisit the project, I will not be editing the US version as I had in the past - Japanese source material all the way.
Does that include translating the instruction manual? That's like half the story right there.
Seconded. It woulda been simpler this way and possibly better. 'twas not to be though...
Heck, every Megaman series should star the exact same Megaman.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/RyanFerneau/gutsy.png)
Wouldn't that be simple
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Does that include translating the instruction manual? That's like half the story right there.
Here's the manual for translating, from RPM to the fans. ^^ (http://www.rockmanpm.com/f/manuals/%5BRPM%5D%5BSFC%5D%20Rockman%20X1%20(J).zip)
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Heck, every Megaman series should star the exact same Megaman.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/RyanFerneau/gutsy.png)
Wouldn't that be simple
... Funding needed right here.
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Saving you some time and trouble here. ^^ (http://www.rockmanpm.com/?p=x/rockmanx1/script/japanese)
I was well aware of these, actually. I showed this page to Mint after I presented my credentials when our groups first teamed up (note that RKS is a joint project between Darkside and Zeppy - I can't (and have no intention to) take full credit for it). That's when he and Tanin expressed interest in reviving the project. Still, I appreciate the thought. Thanks.
What I meant in my last post was dumping the script in Shift-JIS and running it through a parser to make sure that Boco's transcript is 100% accurate. Flat-out romanizations are easy. Converting loanwords and names is the hard part (and, if katakana is capitalized, that saves a lot of time when I skim the output). I could romanize the whole thing using the images, sure, but that'd be time-consuming and I'm occupied with other things at the moment (RKS full version, reformatting my laptop, and preparing for my university graduation next week).
As for every Megaman series starring the same character: that'd be a bit boring. You need variety (one of the reasons why Adam Sessler can't stand Megaman games - Capcom doesn't really seem to know where to innovate). Plus, wouldn't it be odd if Megaman Zero was the original Megaman? That's make the Megaman X series a total mess... [eyebrow]
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I can help you with the Japanese text, including the Shift-JIS, if you like. ^^
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Anyway, since Maverick Hunter X was already released
I don't think X1 really needs a retranslation (except for the story in the manual), the game is simple enough and appears to be localized correctly when compared to even Boco's work. Of the SNES games it's X2 and X3 that seems to suffer the most from localization. Of the PSX games, I think X5 is the most needed, followed by X6. But I reckon that in hacking terms, X1~3 would be far easier. And I guess after all those years it'd be nice to have the foundation of the series at least solidified.
Also, I share the sentiments that the instruction manuals for X1~3 need to be retranslated. There's some nice material that should be there, like some details to X's schematics and the rewritten version of the X1 warning that talks of worrying and Wily. And in X2, all the stuff revolving around Zero's attempted resurrection by Cain which ended in failure. Half the story right there, indeed.
X1's manual is a bit odd though. The manual of the SFC version is actually incomplete. It seems Capcom of America made up Cain's Journal for the American release, but the subsequent Japanese port for PC included an altered version of the journal. Apparently they made an American fabrication canon by changing it to their liking.
Seconded. It woulda been simpler this way and possibly better.
I don't think so. What should have happened is that Capcom should have explained it properly right away without localization trying to change it.
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Plus, wouldn't it be odd if Megaman Zero was the original Megaman?
Yeah, that would be the big plot twist! The new Zero is the old Megaman, and the new Megaman is the old Zero, after they got involved with some kind of brain switch machine!
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We can top that off with the Master from Legends being none other than Dr. Wily (who was also Sigma the whole time)!
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I'll go with the Master being an alien (but still human), myself.
I've spent two days lurking around Angelfire, after finding out that it had a search function (something Tripod doesn't seem to have. One point for Angelfire!). My goal? To find as much old Megaman stuff as possible, be it minor or major. (Which, admittedly, is less "theories" as it is "they didn't even care when they wrote this") Turns out there was a lot of interesting material there, amongst all the RPGs that weren't updated since the day they went up and horribly designed pages, the only purpose of which seemed to be to murder my eyes.
http://angelfire.com/theforce2/megaman/ - Claims Protoman was brainwashed by Dr. Wily.
http://mmxz.zophar.net/ - Not on Angelfire, but found though it. Apparently confuses Protoman's personality with Bass's.
http://angelfire.com/wv/sOnIc/mm.html - Bungles the plots of MM3-6 and 8 (slightly; "EVIL" wasn't really a spirit). Would you have ever guessed that Protoman was the Big Bad of MM6? 8D
Quoted in case the site ever goes kaput:
Megaman III - NES, Game Boy, PC
Not again. Dr. Wily doesn't know when to give up. Can Megaman defeat him again, This time, Megaman will have a little help from his new dog, Rush, and his best friend, Roll.
Megaman IV - NES, Game Boy
Will Dr. Wily ever give up or is he going to create these robots till the end of time? Megaman must go defeat even harder robots like Toad Man and Dive Man and Skull Man and make the world a safer place.
Megaman V - NES, Game Boy
Dr. Wily has created a brother for Megaman named Protoman. Sometimes, Protoman will help Megaman. Others, he will try to defeat Megaman as much as possible. Can Megaman defeat both Protoman and Dr. Wily?
Megaman VI - NES
Dr. Wily strikes again, and so does Protoman. But, Megaman has more help this time. Megaman will use Beat, his pet bird, to get to places and use Rush as super armor.
http://angelfire.com/mb/megaman1/ - Confuses Megaman with X. Lots of horrible low-res pics and animated sprites on crack.
http://angelfire.com/mo/giants/ - Mentions Metool's Megaman Rockworld, Mega Boy's Megaman Homepage, and Realm of Megaman X--all defunct.
http://angelfire.com/ultra/megamanworld/ - Has a page devoted to the RM3/MM3 prototype.
http://angelfire.com/ult/ace/batton.html - Details the creation of a newsprint Battonton; there's more on the site itself.
http://angelfire.com/ex/megazero/ - Claims X is Mega, without giving any evidence. (Something quite a few people on Angelfire did, actually. Megaman-is-X, supergifs, and grainy official art were all recurring themes)
http://angelfire.com/dragon/megamanbass/ - Devoted to Megaman and Bass; refers to King as "King Robot".
http://angelfire.com/games/calc/mm.txt - Description of a calculator fangame.
http://angelfire.com/games/megaman1/infopage.html - Says Protoman "vanished in an accident" and was "tricked" by Dr. Wily (Wily didn't trick him; Proto was just grateful). Also uses a pic of Volnutt in reference to the original Megaman (which Cannon Spike also did...).
http://angelfire.com/games5/gizmonics/ - "Megaman X Nightmare" demo; the link to the demo doesn't work.
http://angelfire.com/nt/okenet/rockdata.html - Uses Megamix pixel art; their data is off. Just read Elecman's bio.
http://angelfire.com/games3/mmx0/comics.html - Contains info on the series up to Zero. (Only once did I see ZX mentioned on all of Angelfire)
http://angelfire.com/biz4/t87megaman/index.html - Vile X Lab. Closed.
http://angelfire.com/comics/mmo3/ - A fan comic with original designs.
http://angelfire.com/anime5/megaman-zero-project/ - Creates a factless story about Protoman's presence in the X series. (I don't remember if it was a fanfic-oriented site or giving the "facts")
http://angelfire.com/comics/tamm/ - A strange sprite comic with awful grammar.
http://angelfire.com/falcon/favoritestuff/ - Arbitrarily connects Ruby-Spears Megaman with Astro Boy. (OK, Classic I could understand...but RUBY-SPEARS?!)
http://angelfire.com/rpg2/megamanultama/ - Contains a few fangames. (I didn't test them to see if they still worked)
http://angelfire.com/hero/protozero/ - An odd sprite comic; plot feels very DBZ-ish, from what I read of it.
http://angelfire.com/anime5/thelair/mmarchive.html - Detailed site; includes info on the Jazwares figure and the Ruby-Spears production (which is really just his two cents on both matters, but no one else was talking about them...)
http://angelfire.com/games3/megamanX/ - Claims Protoman was the Big Bad of MM4. (I can't get the link to work, so don't bother with it. You'll just get 404'd.)
http://angelfire.com/me4/fanworks/mfw/main.html - Contains a translation of the X5 manga (no scans, just text).
All in all, I've got a slightly better idea of what the fandom looked like back then...at least on Angelfire. (R.I.P., Geocities) Whaddya think? (By the way, I wouldn't have touched this thread again if Vixy hadn't said it was all right. Thank you <3 )
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Actually that RM3 proto info is worth getting. *YOINK*!
Not all of these are really from "the day", some were just poorly made. Anything from 2002 forward was not back in the "dark ages". And much of the info from the 90's was VERY innacurate and more in the spirit of the thread.
And some of these links are now broken links ... bandwidth maybe?
Other examples might include the Sinister 6. Especially the Nostalgia section I set up there. http://sinister6.com/nostalgia/index.html Basically, that's all of Ice's old stuff from 97 up until they moved to PMM and changed the layout. While the site made it out of the MM "dark ages", there are still pages there that show it's age ... mostly in that nostalgia section. Pages back then were more about having a bit of fun and not being too concerned with "canon".
http://www.mmhp.net/ Mandi's site is a survivor of that bygone era. If you read through it, parts of it show it. I haven't looked at the "Mega Musings", but I think that would hve a good degree of old fanon in it.
My own site is another survivor and has some antique things in there (you know, aside from just being a "Megaman Team" - a very old idea that's obscure now). Although my own fanon is tucked away out of sight since I don't support my old ideas anymore.
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Wow...
http://angelfire.com/mb/megaman1/
this site almost made me vomit...
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Wow... this site almost made me vomit...
Zero
Although Zero could be put in the next section of this page, I thought it was important enought to give her her own section.
Anyways, Zero came into action in the X series and looks pretty cool, and is a good character to use in the game.
Ha ha, oh wow.
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Not all of these are really from "the day", some were just poorly made. Anything from 2002 forward was not back in the "dark ages". And much of the info from the 90's was VERY innacurate and more in the spirit of the thread.
Those were the oldest I could find, sadly; I remember one site with a date earlier than 2000, and...there was nothing on it. (I think it might've been another neglected RPG.)
And some of these links are now broken links ... bandwidth maybe?
The hell? I thought I typed everything properly...
I thought it was important enought to give her her own section.
I didn't notice that. XD
With Gauntlet's words in mind, I'll be searching for even older sites. Which turned out far less successfully than hoped. Closest I got was this: http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Station/3196/Mega-Sonic.html (By the way, what were your old theories like?)
Edit: http://maelgrim.tripod.com/Rockman1.html - Found Maelgrim's site.
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/2944/ - Looks like M. Sipher's page (pre-King Weasel Productions?), but I don't think he ever went by "dix" (the e-mail address given).
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http://www.darkmessiah.delum.net/index.html
not quite ancient, But I figured d drop this here. it was a really good, (in my opinion) Idea of Forte in the X series. It DOES include the cataclysm hypothesis, where Zero kills off the original cast, but the guy made an interesting twist on how Zero entered his capsule for the 100 year sleep. and of how Forte is put in the X series. it never continued since its last update almost 3 years ago, but it was still good I think.
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http://angelfire.com/wv/sOnIc/mm.html - Bungles the plots of MM3-6 and 8 (slightly; "EVIL" wasn't really a spirit).
Dr. Wily has created a brother for Megaman named Protoman. Sometimes, Protoman will help Megaman. Others, he will try to defeat Megaman as much as possible.
LOL
Would you have ever guessed that Protoman was the Big Bad of MM6? 8D
Yeah, he really "struck" at me with that Energy Balancer he threw. Luckily I dodged it, claimed it for myself, and used it to beat that evil red dude's forces!
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I never did find Proto in MM6...that EB would've helped out. Selfish bastard! XD
As for the sites...I think I'm really grasping at straws here.
http://us.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Dell/1361/joel_mega_man_home_page.html (http://us.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Dell/1361/joel_mega_man_home_page.html) Hasn't been touched since 1997. Oddly, Protoman is listed as both an ally and an enemy of Megaman; they also claim that Sigma built all the Mavericks.
http://us.geocities.com/megajosh30/main.html (http://us.geocities.com/megajosh30/main.html) God knows when this place was updated (the "Stories" section only goes up to Legends 1, so that's a hint). States that Dr. Wily attacked people with his robots long before Protoman was built (did they confuse the Classic series with The Protomen?).
"Megaman Central" - I don't have the link (it's dead anyway), but I do remember it stating that Megaman and co. lived in "Giga City" (did Capcom ever name the place where they live?).
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/7968/home.htm (http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/7968/home.htm) - MegaMan 2000. It looks like it's got some good stuff on there, but it's all in Spanish (the English section of the site is completely different). Seems to only go up to MMX6.
Not really old, but there's still some great stuff on here (a lot better than what I've dredged up): http://megaman.robotvaudeville.com/ (http://megaman.robotvaudeville.com/) Gotta love how NP mispells the Fake Bad of MM4's name as "Cassock", and how Gamefan theorized that Double would be playable in X4. Yeah. DOUBLE.
Most of those links came from the Megaman Homepage. There were quite a few broken links in the "Classic" section...
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Did you try archive.org on all of them?
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Did you try archive.org on all of them?
Archive.org hates Geocities.
Really, I was just focused on the sites that were still up. I checked some others, and there was nothing interesting there. I'll look some more in a bit.
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http://web.archive.org/web/19990210073531/http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/4611/ - Not updated since '97.
Getting off the subject of old websites--does anyone remember the old fanon names for the X5 Mavericks (ex: Tidal Whale, Burn T.Rex--thanks, Mr. Shin), or any other fanon names for bosses or characters before their respective games came out? (I remember reading that early MM3 previews called Protoman "Bruce", but sadly, the Megaman Library had no evidence...)
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Bruce was I think a mistranslation of "Blues"
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What if I think "Blues" is a mistranslation of "Bruce"?
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DA-DUUUUN!
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What if I think "Blues" is a mistranslation of "Bruce"?
You'd both be wrong, since it's "Bluece".
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Because it's Bluece Cluece, Bluece Cluece
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XD
Honestly, I don't think there's any way to keep the thread alive at this point, seeing as how all the interesting stuff has been mentioned by now. But I thought I misewell share this:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/1292/mmc.html (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/1292/mmc.html) Last updated in '98. All the bios are more or less accurate (the ones he bothered to fill out, anyway), but one in particular stuck out to me: Dr. Wily's.
Dr. Light's cousin and former partner. He went mad and reprogrammed the six industrial robots to try and take over the world.
Now I'm curious as to where the hell he got that.
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- Breakman and Protoman are two different people. I actually had a debate with someone a long ways back about whay this idea made no sence.
You know, with the release of Gigamix, we might get some insight into the whole matter. Seeing what Ariga thinks of the whole BreakMan issue could potentially clear up a lot.
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No matter what Mr. Ariga says, it still won't be canon. (Unless it's outside Megamix/Gigamix, but someone'd have to ask him directly) We'd have better luck with MMOCW/R20.
I always thought it was obvious that the two are the same robot. Breakman fights you and exits the field in the exact same manner as Protoman, plus the only difference is that single "eye" (which could just be his visor reflecting light differently) and the mask.
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No matter what Mr. Ariga says, it still won't be canon. (Unless it's outside Megamix/Gigamix, but someone'd have to ask him directly) We'd have better luck with MMOCW/R20.
We have better luck with a book we already know includes no information of the sort? Sure, if you say so.
You forget, as Ariga is knowledgeable enough to have written sourcebooks on the series canon, anything he includes within his manga has to be evaluated in its validity to the canon. His stance on these matters has as much validity as a Capcom employee that worked directly on the story of the games. We just have to properly discriminate between his manga canon and Capcom's. Remember, Ariga was considered to be important enough to even draw a manga further detailing IntiCreates' concepts for Rockman9 within an official Inti CD release. And really, as it stands, this is the ONLY source we have on such matters as BreakMan to date. At the very least, it's more than an evaluation of sprites that never even made it into the finalized game.
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R20 has some pretty clear sketches on the matter.
I'm also in the boat of thinking Ariga's book will be more "interesting" than "canon". It doesn't matter to me that he wrote a sourcebook, his stories are his own universe. It's like a comic book author writing a novel ... that novel is not canon within the comic book universe. Even if they write the comic book at the same time as doing their novel it's just not and I can't see Ariga's work as being any different.
But I will say that his opinions have more weight to them than, say, Novas Adventuras de Megaman. Not canon, but more worth mentioning than NAdMM. If he'll present it as anything but a sort of powered-up mode, I'll be even more interested, really.
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We have better luck with a book we already know includes no information of the sort? Sure, if you say so. (http://We have better luck with a book we already know includes no information of the sort? Sure, if you say so.)
Didn't know that. >.> But I do remember those concepts for Protoman; one of them is very clearly Breakman.
You forget, as Ariga is knowledgeable enough to have written sourcebooks on the series canon, anything he includes within his manga has to be evaluated in its validity to the canon. (http://You forget, as Ariga is knowledgeable enough to have written sourcebooks on the series canon, anything he includes within his manga has to be evaluated in its validity to the canon.)
I haven't forgotten, but the thing is, you simply can't bring third-party productions into discussions about canon. Just because Ariga says something about Breakman, doesn't mean it's canon--just how much did Capcom care about Breakman, anyway?
If Ariga says that Proto and Break are one and the same or not in a sourcebook, that's fine. But the manga? Even if we could differentiate between his canon and Capcom's, we can't be 100% sure , because we're not Ariga.
Unless Capcom produces it themselves, it's not canon. I don't care how much Ariga knows about Megaman's goings-on, Megamix and Gigamix aren't canon, because Capcom only licensed it, and probably wouldn't give a doodly-[parasitic bomb] about it beyond its sales.
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Just because Ariga says something about Breakman, doesn't mean it's canon
I would prefer it if every time the manga is brought up, people wouldn't jump on it as "non canon". That's just beating a dead horse, saying something we already know.
In line with what Gauntlet said before, -interesting- and -canon-: I did specifically use the words "insight" and "evaluate".
As this is a gray area in the story, there's little that can be defined as "canon." All we have to go on is one battle in which a name, a design, abilities were shown, and some sparse book statement none of us have ever seen that were given on the matter.
All we have here is our own interpretations of the events of Rockman3, that is why Ariga's stories are so important to provide us with insight to refine our views. His use of the character can validate our own ideas or bring to light new possibilities. Until we actually have a detailed canon, all we can is put to test our own opinions in comparison to the sparse facts that we have. That is what I mean "should be evaluated to the canon".
Didn't know that. >.> But I do remember those concepts for Protoman; one of them is very clearly Breakman.
There are sketches, yes. But R20 is not a plot related book. Its focus is more about the creative and production process.
Unless Capcom produces it themselves, it's not canon. I don't care how much Ariga knows about Megaman's goings-on, Megamix and Gigamix aren't canon, because Capcom only licensed it, and probably wouldn't give a doodly-[parasitic bomb] about it beyond its sales.
The Rockman 9 Arrange Soundtrack among other official Inti/Capcom releases raise considerable doubt about this statement.
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I would prefer it if every time the manga is brought up, people wouldn't jump on it as "non canon". That's just beating a dead horse, saying something we already know.
The impression I was getting (and still am) is that you're treating it like it has canological value when it is, in fact, a third-party production like the RS-cartoon, the OVAs, and Mr. Ikehara's mangas (which, up to 5 or so, are WAY closer to the games than anything else, but I don't see anyone dragging them into conversations like this).
What's really pissing me off is the double standard about third-party stuff in relation to Megaman. The Ruby-Spears cartoon and the OVA both had involvement with Capcom beyond simply being licensed; R20 has sketches pertaining to both productions. Yet, no one ever treats them like they have canological value, simply because they're "not good" (well, the OVA usually gets a free pass since it's Japanese, but still). But Megamix is treated like it does, simply because "it's good" (which I won't argue with, but that's not the point).
Yes, Mr. Ariga does know quite a bit about the Classic canon, but here's the problem:
All we have here is our own interpretations of the events of Rockman3, that is why Ariga's stories are so important to provide us with insight to refine our views. His use of the character can validate our own ideas or bring to light new possibilities.
How do we know he's not BSing? The ordeals with Copy-Rock and the second Yellow Devil are both products of his imagination (I'm assuming), so who says this version of Breakman won't be, as well?
Not to mention, any evaluation we make of his role in Megamix will inevitably be biased, even if only a little, so it's not much help.
As long as you're going to treat Magamix like it means something in this argument, I'm going to do the same with Ruby-Spears: Judging by the stuff in the toyline that wasn't released due to the show getting canned, Proto was supposed to don a mask at some point--and it was specifically referred to as "Breakman's". Sure, we have no idea what the hell Ruby-Spears was planning with that, and it doesn't prove anything, but hey.
I think someone who owns Rockman Memories/Perfect Memories should check to see if they had anything to say on Protoman being Breakman. All I can contribute to the argument is what Gauntlet and others found (http://themechanicalmaniacs.com/articles/mm3mysteries.php) (scroll down until you see those sprites of Protoman/Breakman). Honestly, I have to hit myself for forgetting that. >.>
The Rockman 9 Arrange Soundtrack among other official Inti/Capcom releases raise considerable doubt about this statement.
I always figured that the mini-manga was more a part of Megamix than the game; didn't Mr. Ariga write it?
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I would prefer it if every time the manga is brought up, people wouldn't jump on it as "non canon". That's just beating a dead horse, saying something we already know.
You sometimes tend to bring up the mangas in discussions on the games. While it is true that MHX took Ideas from Iwamoto, that does not mean the rest of it that was not featured was canon to the games. The mangas cannot be compared to the games because they are two separate canons.
also, @ Gonzo, RS also had glaring story errors, such as Light and Wily being partners, (blame the American MM manual for that) and Protoman being a Wily creation AND a bad guy. Then there's that psycho X...
In any case, it is also not canon to the games. the Upon A Star anime, inst canon to the games either, but follows the natural story of things. In fact, its moreso not canon to the games since its just its own thing, what if Megaman came out of the game. its not an in-universe interpretation.
RS was.
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also, @ Gonzo, RS also had glaring story errors, such as Light and Wily being partners, (blame the American MM manual for that) and Protoman being a Wily creation AND a bad guy. Then there's that psycho X...
I know that; the point was that Capcom was involved with it beyond licensing, if only a little, and I wasn't serious about its validity anyway. ^^
n any case, it is also not canon to the games. the Upon A Star anime, inst canon to the games either, but follows the natural story of things. In fact, its moreso not canon to the games since its just its own thing, what if Megaman came out of the game.
True, but goddamn did it ever waste its potential.
(Also, entirely off-topic, but sometimes I wish the Fan Dumb would stop blaming the "story errors" in RS-MM and consider that ,maybe, those changes were creative ones...)
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If there is something Gigamix can teach us in relation to the actual game canon, it will probably be in the interview/comments portion that are usually included at the end of the compilation volumes. I haven't heard anything yet about Gigamix's section, though I think I recall reading in previews that it would have one, just as the recent revisions of Megamix have.
When the Megamix chapters were first written, Ariga would write margin notes where his ideas would sometimes refer to or go against the games' canon, but it seems he stopped doing it when he began repackaging the tales as his own version of the Rockman universe instead of being side stories that could take place in the game canon universe, so I don't expect that he provided such notes in Gigamix. I think our best hope is the interview and discussion section.
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True, but goddamn did it ever waste its potential.
How?
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the RS-cartoon, the OVAs,
Both of those were specifically made for the American market. The RS-cartoon was written there and goes by the stories as told in the US manuals. It's automatically invalidated right there.
The OVA is a special case, though from Japan, it went with the concept of them stepping straight out of a game called "MegaMan5" into the real world of "Japan"... It doesn't take place in the game universe, and it has characters coming straight from the American games, instead of the Japanese games.
Thing is, we HAVE used the OVA in game discussion before. Specifically on the discussion on Blues/Sniper Joes and the discussion on time travel. And the scope of the discussion was pretty much where the extent of its canon value ends; it can only be used as a means to evaluate character behavior and as a means to evaluate certain prominent mechanics of the classic universe.
How do we know he's not BSing? The ordeals with Copy-Rock and the second Yellow Devil are both products of his imagination (I'm assuming), so who says this version of Breakman won't be, as well?
Why is that really relevant? We already know that Ariga's considers Remix, MegaMix and the games as three distinct canons. We already see many discrepancies in the timeline, such as Wily's actions during the second story or Rightot and Forte's mistimed appearances. All that really matters is that as a Rockman3 game adaption, it's simply something of interest to see how similar the events could play out in a different style of presentation brought by someone with such innate knowledge of the series. It is food for thought on a matter that has such limited information.
Now, if Ariga actually would explain in interview how his work is different or similar from the game, as Marshmallow just mentioned, that'd be all the better. But without that, we can think for ourselves, can't we? Most of the discrepancies with the games are blatantly obvious. We just have to carefully evaluate the presented material with an open mind.
I always figured that the mini-manga was more a part of Megamix than the game; didn't Mr. Ariga write it?
It is part of Megamix, specifically, the first chapter of the upcoming Rockman9 adaption. And we've already seen discrepancies with the game. But still, included by IntiCreates in their own soundtrack, with Ariga's work gracing the whole cover and booklet. IntiCreates allowed Ariga to help explain the concept they themselves could not deeply elaborate upon with the confines of a NES game. Ariga's work should not be degenerated to a mere cash cow that Capcom couldn't care less about.
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Both of those were specifically made for the American market. The RS-cartoon was written there and goes by the stories as told in the US manuals. It's automatically invalidated right there.
I was being sarcastic. And I don't care which market they were made for; that's supporting the double standard that "only the Japanese stuff counts".
Why is that really relevant?
Because Ariga may have altered something about Breakman (beside the appearance), and we might not be able to tell. The problem I'm seeing here is that we don't know much about Breakman other than what can be deduced from the games, yet we're trying to "evaluate" his appearance in a manga that's not canon to the games and may have changed things around. It's like trying to write a paper for Romeo and Juliet when all you know is that Romeo had a friend named Mercutio, and your source material is the anime.
it's simply something of interest to see how similar the events could play out in a different style of presentation brought by someone with such innate knowledge of the series. It is food for thought on a matter that has such limited information.
Which would be fine if it didn't seem like you were treating it like potential game canon. Yes, we can think for ourselves, but in the end, all it'll be is fanon.
It is part of Megamix, specifically, the first chapter of the upcoming Rockman9 adaption. And we've already seen discrepancies with the game. But still, included by IntiCreates in their own soundtrack, with Ariga's work gracing the whole cover and booklet. IntiCreates allowed Ariga to help explain the concept they themselves could not deeply elaborate upon with the confines of a NES game.
I see a distinct lack of Capcom. (Yes, I know IntiCreates is part of Capcom, but this being the first time it's happened makes me wonder how involved Capcom was with that decision. If IntiCreates wasn't involved, would Ariga be, either?)
Ariga's work should not be degenerated to a mere cash cow that Capcom couldn't care less about.
Which I don't mean to do--I respect the man's work--but I made that statement with the rest of the third-party stuff in mind. The closest Capcom has gotten to acknowledging it has been the inclusion of RS and manga art in R20, and even then, it feels more for "completeness" rather than "we care about it". (There was that joke in a Marvel VS Capcom flyer, but I can't read it, and I get the feeling it was specifically the artist's idea) Until they do, with more than a passing "we licensed it", I'm going to assume that they're more concerned with the games.
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Because Ariga may have altered something about Breakman (beside the appearance), and we might not be able to tell. The problem I'm seeing here is that we don't know much about Breakman other than what can be deduced from the games, yet we're trying to "evaluate" his appearance in a manga that's not canon to the games and may have changed things around. It's like trying to write a paper for Romeo and Juliet when all you know is that Romeo had a friend named Mercutio, and your source material is the anime.
This is my own felings on the matter as well.
Honestly, the idea of "canon" in the MM commnity is messed up. I like how the Transformers fandom deals with it. ANYTHING official is canon, however each inhabits it's own continuity.
So everything Ariga made would be it's own canon, seperate from the game's canon. Ditto Cap N and Ruby Spears. All seperate. But all canon since all of it was made through official channels.
The RM9 book has noticable discreptancies with the game - the main source of any game canon. So it's use as "Capcom Canon" is somewhat dubious. I suppose it'd be as canon as the MM1 manual was. I mean, treating everything eaqually, I can't see too much difference. Both are region-specific.
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I like how the Transformers fandom deals with it. ANYTHING official is canon, however each inhabits it's own continuity.
I am still curious about The Great Upgrade, mentioned in Beast Machines.
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RS also had glaring story errors, such as Light and Wily being partners,
How do you know they weren't?
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How do you know they weren't?
Apparently, that's not what the original story for MM1 said. But I don't remember CoJ having anything to say on the matter, so it could be either, honestly.
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The story goes that Right and Wily are rivals and that Wily was exiled from the scientific community years before the first game. Likewise, the story goes that Blues hates his creator for activating him as an unfinished prototype, but he does not hate Dr. Wily, only Dr. Right.
I think it should be quite clear what's wrong with the notion of them being partners that produced Blues and the other industrial robots.
Because Ariga may have altered something about Breakman (beside the appearance), and we might not be able to tell. The problem I'm seeing here is that we don't know much about Breakman other than what can be deduced from the games, yet we're trying to "evaluate" his appearance in a manga that's not canon to the games and may have changed things around. It's like trying to write a paper for Romeo and Juliet when all you know is that Romeo had a friend named Mercutio, and your source material is the anime.
And what I'm saying is that Ariga's use of BreakMan is as valid in our evaluation of what Breakman truly is as looking into sprites that never made it into the final game. They give us insight into the ideas of people that by their profession are closely involved with the games and their story.
So everything Ariga made would be it's own canon, seperate from the game's canon. Ditto Cap N and Ruby Spears. All seperate. But all canon since all of it was made through official channels.
Everything is its own internally consistent canon, that's a given. Official or unofficial, everything is canon to itself, that's just reciting the very definition of canon. What we're talking about is more on how all those separate canons relate and holds some truth about each other.
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Everything is its own internally consistent canon, that's a given. Official or unofficial, everything is canon to itself, that's just reciting the very definition of canon. What we're talking about is more on how all those separate canons relate and holds some truth about each other.
Well ... no, not really. When people say "canon" around here they usually mean what's true in the Capcom of Japan game continuity. And when they say "not canon", they are talking about it strictly in relation to the CoJ continuity. But this is never flat-out stated and it seems the issue is confused. Not everyone is using the same "playbook".
Many times when people say "canon" (and I'd say in this case as well) they mean "what counts overall". And everything officially made counts in some capacity. But it wouldn't be quite right to put the PC games into a timline of games in the Japanese continuity.
So, af far as canon is concerned, Dr. Wily and Light were partners. That's well established and official. However it applies only to the US continuity. In Japan they weren't.
What we're talking about here is more like "what has weight in the Japanese game continuity", so let's make that very clear. That's all I'm sayin'.
And what I'm saying is that Ariga's use of BreakMan is as valid in our evaluation of what Breakman truly is as looking into sprites that never made it into the final game.
Well, there's that, and Brakman's invulnerability to Master Weapons, his shots being bigger (although still dealing the same damage), and his fight counting as a Protoman fight in CW that really seals the deal on Breakman being Protoman. But you also have all sprites and concept sketches being grouped together in such a way that it seems pretty clear what's going on. The unused sprites are really the thing that brought it all together, but it's all right there.
With Ariga, you'd have to pick and choose what's true and what isn't. I mean, maybe he did ask someone at Capcom what the deal was. Or maybe he didn't. We can't know. But there's no denying the facts of the matter.
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I think it should be quite clear what's wrong with the notion of them being partners that produced Blues and the other industrial robots.
There's nothing wrong with it if Wily buggered off before Proto was built. >.> That's the way I remember it.
Everything is its own internally consistent canon, that's a given. Official or unofficial, everything is canon to itself, that's just reciting the very definition of canon. What we're talking about is more on how all those separate canons relate and holds some truth about each other.
Sure...if it's the right region. Grumble.
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There's nothing wrong with it if Wily buggered off before Proto was built. >.> That's the way I remember it.
I'm with you here, man. I don't see anything wrong with it either.
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There's nothing wrong with it if Wily buggered off before Proto was built. >.> That's the way I remember it.
Wily buggering off before ProtoMan was built?... What are you talking about? We are comparing the cartoon with the games. ProtoMan was shown being made by Wily and Light! Likewise, he's outright said to have made the other industrial robots in the US manual! All of this is in outright contradiction with the original story of the games.
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Wily buggering off before ProtoMan was built?... What are you talking about? We are comparing the cartoon with the games.
Which I didn't see in that post. Unless you're being sarcastic.
To be fair to the writers of the MM1 manual (which, if I've read, I don't remember doing so), they wrote it long before Proto ever showed up.
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The US manuals certainly imply Wily ran off with Protowhen he went renegade. The RS shows were heavily based off the MM1 manual for it's premise. I don't see much problem with Wily running off with Proto while he stole Cuts, Guts and the rest. He just kept him working behind the scenes during 1 and 2.
Of course, none of this is relevant to the Japanese games at all.
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Its not relevant to the American ones either. All we know in the US games, is that for whatever reason, Proto was helping Wily until 3, (or was it 4? I dont remember) where he called it quits, and left him.
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He was helping him until 4, when he rescued Kalinka .... much to Wily's surprise.
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Yeah. I think I recall Wily calling him a traitor or something.
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Of course, none of this is relevant to the Japanese games at all.
Which I didn't see in that post.
Do you honestly not remember the quotes preceding it?
RS also had glaring story errors, such as Light and Wily being partners,
How do you know they weren't?
Apparently, that's not what the original story for MM1 said. But I don't remember CoJ having anything to say on the matter, so it could be either, honestly.
We were comparing the RS cartoon's "glaring story errors" that occur relative to the original story from the games.
In which it's fairly clear. Wily could NOT have built Blues. Because Blues hates Right but not Wily. Had Wily created Blues, Blues would not be working for him. Likewise Wily's exile from the scientific community occurred before Rock and the others were created and him stealing the industrial robots occurs immediately precedes the events of the game. All of this invalidates the RS cartoon and the US manual its based upon.
Don't try to argue how it works within the cartoon's canon itself, the whole point is that it does not work compared to its source.
The US manuals certainly imply Wily ran off with Protowhen he went renegade.
Which is rather peculiar considering Wily was stated there to have stayed around to build Rock and the Industrial Robots. The "US" games and manuals only state Dr. Light made ProtoMan. It's only assumed that "assistant" Wily had a hand in it because he worked with Dr. Light on ProtoMan's successors. Either way, you have to somehow reason how ProtoMan ended up at Wily's whilst not being with Dr. Light at the time of his treason.
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It's entirely possible that Wily was away on a business trip or something the entire time Proto was built and ran away. After that, he came back and helped Dr. Light build the six industrial robots and Rock.
This argument is making me regret that I ever brought RS-MM up. Sarcastically, mind you, because you were using the manga.
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It's entirely possible that Wily was away on a business trip or something the entire time Proto was built and ran away. After that, he came back and helped Dr. Light build the six industrial robots and Rock.
The details are fairly clear, Wily was in exile at the time of Blues' running away. Wily helped Blues in his time of need and Blues therefore pays allegiance to Wily. At that time, Wily learned from working on Blues' systems how to reprogram Dr. Right's robots. We also have further details on how Rock and Roll were created as siblings by Dr. Right to avoid making the same mistakes as with Blues and we know they've not met Wily before the events of Rockman1. We also have details on Wily and Right's rivalry concerning the Nobel Prize, LIT manual design contest, World Engineer Grand Prix which invalidate a partnership; Wily's work is different from Right's and he's the eternal second best. And not to mention the statement that only the Rockman3 robots can specifically be considered "Right and Wily Numbers", shortened to "Wily Numbers" with the original industrial robots specifically as "Right Numbers".
Compare that to the cartoon in which we saw Wily and Right build ProtoMan.
Compare that to the US manual which leaves Blues and Roll unspecified beyond "made by Light" and outright says "MegaMan" (Should be Rock) and "6 industrial robots" were made by "Light and -assistant- Wily."
When it comes to work derivative of the Japanese sources, we naturally see less contradictions of the above sort. But the times that differences are introduced in the details are naturally unavoidable. Still, if you would compare for instance Ariga and Iwamoto. Ariga's the overall more faithful of the two. This level of faithfulness is very much unprecedented in other work. He has truly captured the spirit and setting of Rockman.
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When it comes to work derivative of the Japanese sources, we naturally see less contradictions of the above sort. But the times that differences are introduced in the details are naturally unavoidable.
Does its being Japanese make it inherently good? The OVA was tepid at best, having decided to devote most of its time to slow educational content. (I know it wasn't made for the Japanese market, but they're the ones that got it first)
Still, if you would compare for instance Ariga and Iwamoto. Ariga's the overall more faithful of the two. This level of faithfulness is very much unprecedented in other work. He has truly captured the spirit and setting of Rockman.
So did Shigeto Ikehara, but no one cares about him, apparently. >.>
I should point out, Ariga came after RS-MM. RS-MM came about at a time when Megaman's story was sparse; I don't think even the original manuals said [tornado fang]-all about what was going on or what anyone was like beyond what little plot they couldn't be arsed to put in the games themselves (I'm talking MM1-4 here). So Ruby-Spears can't be blamed for taking the show in the direction they did. Not to mention, they probably began work on it a while before '94, and they had even less to work with then.
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Ikehara is a bit more obscure than the other two. :P
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Regarding canon, I think it's usually understood what canon someone is talking about from the context, but I'll admit it does appear to get to be confusing for newcomers to the fandom. If I recall, at one point Mega Man Network had an article explaining it, though I think it got dropped over subsequent site moves/reboots, along with their Sourcebook info section.
As for Japanese Rockman canon vs American/European/etc Mega Man canon... While some things are apparently changed intentionally for western audiences, a lot of Mega Man game and media produced info suffers from inconsistency, misconception and mistranslation. Where we can't always tell which is what, it is easier (for those familiar with the Japanese versions at least) to go by the original standard and note the exceptions. But outnumbering these are the many games, books, cds and merchandise that were never brought over at all, and thus regional counterparts don't exist. If we say that American game canon is a separate entity from Japanese game canon, then we essentially say there is nothing in the Japanese canon that applies to the American without being expressly mentioned in the American. Which means huge gaps and a large number of unknown variables that would otherwise have been understood.
I don't think this is news to anyone in this thread, hell, much of this thread itself is proof positive of what I'm referrring to. And that's not to say Japanese sources never contradict, never retcon or never offer silly explanations that don't necessarily make the most sense. It isn't about what's "best," you can prefer whatever version you like, be it manga, comic book, anime, cartoon, A-game or J-game. There's always the option to compose your own fanon or exercise your imagination regardless of any of these.
What the default phrase of "canon" usually refers to around here is that these are stories and backgrounds put out by the people who first and foremost created these games, this is the tale they told before it was wrung through the filtering process for another region, or reworked into a comic book or TV show, and this is the foundation that future game and related entries are likely to build from and abide by (for whatever that really accounts for). I usually try to specify "game canon" even though that itself is something of a misnomer in that it actually extends further than what is simply found in the games. But because it's mostly what I talk about, what I think most of the plot discussions in this entire board section are about, it's simple enough to just say canon for shorthand. When we're talking about a different canon, manga for instance, it usually requires further specification anyhow, as in "Iwamoto's Rockman X manga" which is mutually exclusive with "Ikehara's Irregular Hunter Rockman X manga," or "Battle Story Rockman EXE manga" vs regular "Rockman EXE manga" vs. its American counterpart "Mega Man NT Warrior manga" etc. etc. etc. To refer to them all commonly as "canon" would, in my estimation, be more confusing than the current state where one recognized version is regularly referred to as canon and the others as specified as separate universes, which though not necessarily mentioned as such are understood to be canon only to themselves.
Anyway, the cool thing about Gigamix is that practically no one in the Capcom licensed manga realm, not even Ikehara, has done a serious R3 manga before. And for that matter, most "sourcebooks" from that or any current era skip over the greater part of the details about the unknown worlds, Blues/Breakman, the crystals and Gamma... For such an old game, it's new territory. It will be food for thought, if nothing else.
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When talking to some the term "canon" is pretty clear most of the time, but it gets really muddled when you debate on which souces count. Really, really muddled. because people tend to stop and ask the obvious "why doesn't ___ count? It's officially made..."
While everyone agrees that everything counts in it's own continuity phrases such as "not canon" are still tossed around all the time and it's pretty confusing to new people or people jumping into threads. And it's not even really correct to say. It's much easier to specifiy which canon is being discussed.
Frankly, I'd agree that, more often than not, a blank should be left for US entries rather than filling them in with Japanese things in order to make it more "complete". Because it leads to less contradictions. For THAT canon.
As for Japanese > US, it's only more detailed because it has more material. The US stories, such as they are, don't offer up many bothersome contradictions. It's usually names Wright to Light, not really story. There's not much there to contradict.
Also, I never really got why there was so much confusion as to how Wily could "assist" Light without being named as a co-creator. To me, there's a really BIG difference between "assistant" and "co-creator". Wily could have done anything from going over Light's math to bringing him his coffeeand not be a co-creator. There's just no contradiction at all in saying that Wily was Light's assistant and that Light created Protoman.
As for the RS cartoon, it's pretty messed up with Protoman. Wily stole the kid-Protoman and then totally rebuilt him into an adult. So how did Light make him at all? There musta been a change in art, substituting the kid proto model for an adult one, because it doesn't make too much sence.
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Then theres the Megamissions cards, which are actually semi-canon to the games.
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Personally I consider MegaMissions' canonical status to be comparable to the manga; it is a valuable source of insight but not literally applicable to game canon (the difference being MegaMissions is telling a more original story).
MegaMissions is of questionable status due mainly to part 2, in which Light provides an armor that is usable by both Zero and X. Shouldn't be possible according to X5 (or more accurately, not in that timeframe; XCM shows that somebody pulled it off eventually). There's also a bit of a style clash as none of the MegaMission "armors" apply full-body the way that the in-game armors do.
Frankly, I'd agree that, more often than not, a blank should be left for US entries rather than filling them in with Japanese things in order to make it more "complete". Because it leads to less contradictions. For THAT canon.
As for Japanese > US, it's only more detailed because it has more material. The US stories, such as they are, don't offer up many bothersome contradictions. It's usually names Wright to Light, not really story. There's not much there to contradict.
I'd only consider English "canon" to be separate from Japanese in the case of vocabulary, that being it is only natural for terms to change across regions.
Other than that, I, and I think most fans, regard English games as simply translations. They are derivative works, and future installments will build on the originals. The perfect example of this is X3. "To save mankind, he must destroy Zero". A small rephrase left big implications that were never fulfilled. It's not that non-game Japanese sources aren't brought here because they aren't applicable; it's that the big shots in charge generally do not consider it worthwhile to do so. The entity behind this story is a business, after all, and their primary business is games.
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As for the RS cartoon, it's pretty messed up with Protoman. Wily stole the kid-Protoman and then totally rebuilt him into an adult. So how did Light make him at all? There musta been a change in art, substituting the kid proto model for an adult one, because it doesn't make too much sence.
I figured that what Dr. Light and Dr. Wily meant by "built Protoman" were different things: Dr. Light constructed his CPU, which was transferred to the physical body that Dr. Wily built. Plus, Wily's quite prideful, so it's only natural that he'd treat a CPU transfer as "building" Protoman.
Oh, and most of "The Beginning" was a flashback--Mega's, if memory serves. He got a train dropped on him, and dreams are never that true to reality anyway, so for all we know, it could have gone differently. Or Dr. Light misremembered some things.
I'm with Gauntlet on the definition of "Wily was Light's assistant". Makes a lot more sense than the US MM1 manual.
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Personally I consider MegaMissions' canonical status to be comparable to the manga; it is a valuable source of insight but not literally applicable to game canon (the difference being MegaMissions is telling a more original story).
Hasn't Megamissions been explicitly stated to be semi canon by Capcom? it fits in between X2 and 3. I forgot, but I think there was somewhere that said it was semi canon...
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Also, I never really got why there was so much confusion as to how Wily could "assist" Light without being named as a co-creator. To me, there's a really BIG difference between "assistant" and "co-creator". Wily could have done anything from going over Light's math to bringing him his coffeeand not be a co-creator. There's just no contradiction at all in saying that Wily was Light's assistant and that Light created Protoman.
There are two big problems with the notion of Wily as an assistant. First and foremost, he would never ever stand to be put in second place to Light. Secondly, he'd still be responsible for the crime of activating an unfinished prototype of a sentient being, therefore, ProtoMan would hate him.
I'd only consider English "canon" to be separate from Japanese in the case of vocabulary, that being it is only natural for terms to change across regions.
Other than that, I, and I think most fans, regard English games as simply translations. They are derivative works, and future installments will build on the originals. The perfect example of this is X3. "To save mankind, he must destroy Zero". A small rephrase left big implications that were never fulfilled. It's not that Japanese sources aren't brought here because they aren't applicable; it's that the big shots in charge generally do not consider it worthwhile to do so. The entity behind this story is a business, after all, and their primary business is games.
Very much agreed here. But some people don't see it this way and insist on their "US canon" vehemently. As I recall, I've once commented on a remark that MegaMan8 should have followed up on MegaMan7's "Die Wily" quote. The scene in question not being in the Japanese game, I saw no need for the writers of the next game to take it into account and adressed such. The poster of the remark got very defensive....
Really, it is as you say. There's no "US canon" outside of the consistent localization changes that are the character's names. And even then, we've had particularly odd cases such as "Gospel" in Battle Network2, AquaMan to SpoutMan between Battle Network 4 and 6, and let's not forget "Mega" instead of "Rock". The difference between "MegaMan" Voulnutt and "MegaMan" Trigger is also a particularly infamous one.
All in all, the "US canon" stopped existing once consistency was lost. Even more so now that Powered Up has trampled all over the remainder of it. The notions born from it nowadays should only exist as ingredients that spark our imagination, not as the canon story of the games. That's not such a thing as favoring a particular region, that's merely favoring the original source.
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There are two big problems with the notion of Wily as an assistant. First and foremost, he would never ever stand to be put in second place to Light. Secondly, he'd still be responsible for the crime of activating an unfinished prototype of a sentient being, therefore, ProtoMan would hate him.
The first is not a problem at all but is the a BIG reason for his desire to dominate the world in the US series. Or, at least it's implied to be a big reason since the manuals don't go deeply into it. But every secondary source that goes into Wily's character is based around the fact that Wily hated being second bannanna. You can really hate being second best while actually being second best. It's not a contradiction or a problem.
The second point also is not a real problem because Proto's resenting of Light and the reasons for it isn't really covered in the US series; that's the Japanese series. Moreover, as I said earlier assistant =/= co-creator. Wily could have gone over Light's math for all we know. Maybe he got Light his coffee.
So, how did Wily stumble upon Protoman in the Japanese series that didn't incur his wrath? By your logic he never activated him, so how did they meet?
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The first is not a problem at all but is the a BIG reason for his desire to dominate the world in the US series. Or, at least it's implied to be a big reason since the manuals don't go deeply into it. But every secondary source that goes into Wily's character is based around the fact that Wily hated being second bannanna. You can really hate being second best while actually being second best. It's not a contradiction or a problem.
The problem is not that he's "second bannanna", he's that regardless of the story you follow. Rather that he's not actively trying to step out of that is a big difference. Wily being confined to working with Light as superior instead of trying to exceed him with something of his own, that is what's odd.
The second point also is not a real problem because Proto's resenting of Light and the reasons for it isn't really covered in the US series; that's the Japanese series.
In more recent times, MegaMan Powered Up is not part of the US series? Surely, for those that followed said US canon, it's a retcon of massive proportions, but that's how it is nowadays. It too has been localized with respect to the US series of the past. The infamous "Mega" name change and the tribute line "Blue Bomber" are a result of that.
So, how did Wily stumble upon Protoman in the Japanese series that didn't incur his wrath?
According to that story, Wily had no involvement in Blues' creation. But when Blues ran away from Dr. Right, his defect eventually caused him to break down. Wily discovered the broken down Blues and succeeded in repairing him. From that point on, Blues owes Wily his life and therefore helped the doctor until he discovered his true nature.
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I don't see why Wily couldn't be actively trying to become first bannana while working with Light, or why he simply couldn't be out of town or something when Proto was activated and ran off.
And I don't mean to incur Zan's wrath with this statement, but thanks to the weeaboos, I hate the idea of separating canons by region in cases like this. Because, inevitably, the Japanese version will be the one hailed as the "true canon", and the other regions will be put down, simply because they aren't the Japanese version.
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I hate the idea of separating canons by region in cases like this.
Blame Capcom USA.
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What if Wily was in exile, but he wore a disguise that fooled Right long enough that Wily could work for him until there was an opportunity to steal the robots? I mean, he had a pretty good disguise going on in that 6 game!
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And I don't mean to incur Zan's wrath with this statement, but thanks to the weeaboos, I hate the idea of separating canons by region in cases like this. Because, inevitably, the Japanese version will be the one hailed as the "true canon", and the other regions will be put down, simply because they aren't the Japanese version.
While I agree with the sentiment, I gotta disagree with the practise. It mixes things up too much. You wouln't be correct to say that Wily was Light's assistant in the Japanese games. However, it is the case in the US games without any doubt. There's no "true canon" - anything made or licensed by Capcom is canon. Period. However, the continuities can only be true to themselves.
Rather that he's not actively trying to step out of that is a big difference.
So .... in your opinion, stealing Light's robots and later making his own army doesn't constitute stepping out of that role?
Wily could really have hated his job as Light's assistant. Lots of people hate theoir jobs. It's easy to imagine he'd be dissatisfied. There is no conflict. I think it's your own interpretation of Wily that has more of a conflict here.
Just because his pride / resentment is great now doesn't mean that his pride was always so great. Moreover, even if it was, life is a funny thing. Sometimes you wind up working for people you utterly despise. People do, at times, hate their bosses. Sometimes they think they can do a MUCH better job and aremore compotent than their bosses.
No matter how I look at it, there's no no points of contention for Wily feeling superior to Light, and yet being his assistant.
Surely, for those that followed said US canon, it's a retcon of massive proportions
You just countered your own point. It's a retcon and therefor anomalous by it's very definition. Moreover, Protoman's portion of that game is not relevant to the main story and is not relevant to the main discussion. However, if you want to include it then Wily was simply not Light's assistant at the time of Protoman's creation because Wily didn't recognise him in that game. Therefore Protoman has no reason to be resentful anyway.
According to that story, Wily had no involvement in Blues' creation. But when Blues ran away from Dr. Right, his defect eventually caused him to break down. Wily discovered the broken down Blues and succeeded in repairing him. From that point on, Blues owes Wily his life and therefore helped the doctor until he discovered his true nature.
So, in other words, Wily activated an incomplete robot even in the Japanese game continuity. So that's pretty much what I thought. And ... nothing of this changes if Wily assissted Light in making him. Nothing at all. Even if you think Wily was there to assist Light in making a robot, he finished Protoman off and the story still works. However, if you're bringing in PU then Wily doesn't know Proto and, therefore, this point of contention is moot.
Fun fact: mangas are not drawn completely by their artists. In order to speed things up they have assistants who do background work and speedlines and such. And yet, they do not really get credit as the artist for the book. Leonardo DaVinchi had the same sort of system with assistants who painted some flowers in order to "assist" him in his paintings. And yet Leo is given credit for his paintings. This isn't any different.
The US manual says "assistant". Not "co-creator". And it doesn't even say in what capacity he assisted Light in. It doesn't mention when he became Light's assistant (it just had to be before all six robots were finished). ALL of that is pure speculation by the fans. Your points of contention are all against your own speculation.
There is a difference between a lab assistant and a co-creator. A very big difference.
Edit: By the way, in regards to the implication that Wily stole Proto witht he other MM1 robots; it's implied in that it's the only opportunity he had in the US continuity. It was popularised by the RS cartoon. However I hasten to note that that is NOT an official explanation for the US games. It could very well have happened as it did in the Japanese continuity.
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So .... in your opinion, stealing Light's robots and later making his own army doesn't constitute stepping out of that role?
Remember that we're talking about how the supposed "region" canon is different from the "other region" canon.
If you compare the bare bones presentation of solely the first three games, then of course it works. But when compared to the whole series as its presented now, it does not.
That Wily steals Light's robots and takes over the world is not the point, he does that no matter how you cut it. But what's simply contradictory is comparing the notion of Wily as Light's assistant that worked on the industrial robots with the rival Dr. Wily that was exiled from the scientific community.
The story as it exists todays sets Wily up to be be a rival. A rival whose own research is consistently second best to Light's work. At some point, Wily's shunned and exiled from the scientific community due to the increasingly questionable morality of his work. After years of exile he returns to have his revenge on Dr. Light and the scientific community by reprogramming his robots and taking over the world.
This is a lot different from the assistant explanation in which Wily would work on the exact same research. But Wily turned disloyal and felt that taking over the world by reprogramming their robots was the way to go.
If we're to compare the two. Contradictions become immediately clear. One of them is that a Wily in exile could not have worked officially on the industrial robots. Delving deeper into the exact wordings of the manual also establishes that Wily has no other motive than "taking over the world." It's also emphasized that "their" first humanoid robot is MegaMan. The later introduced "ProtoMan" is therefore not a joint creation.
It's a retcon and therefor anomalous by it's very definition.
Powered Up is solely a grandiose retcon to the "US canon" of "MegaMan1", it is largely faithful to that which in the "Japanese canon" has been established long ago. If you're not going to take the newest localized releases as fact, you effectively reduce your "US canon" to the point where the localization crew stopped completely rewriting the game in question. That is, almost exclusively the first game.
Wily didn't recognise him in that game.
I think you really need to replay Powered Up again. Wily did recognize ProtoMan and ProtoMan recognized Wily. Wily quite clearly emphasizes ProtoMan is a robot that does not follow orders and ProtoMan quite clearly puts emphasis on the power Wily had given him. Wily's question at the start of the game is not a serious one, he's simply mocking ProtoMan.
So, in other words, Wily activated an incomplete robot even in the Japanese game continuity. So that's pretty much what I thought.
I think you misunderstand the situation. Light activated the unfinished ProtoMan. That ProtoMan was dying because of Light's mistakes. Wily attempted to fix whatever it was that troubled Blues with the best of his ability. Wily saved his life, Light put it in danger. That Wily was incapable of completely eliminating the defect in question is not something ProtoMan would see as foul play. Maybe it was, but that's not something he would realize until after learning Wily's true character.
The US manual says "assistant". Not "co-creator". And it doesn't even say in what capacity he assisted Light in. It doesn't mention when he became Light's assistant (it just had to be before all six robots were finished). ALL of that is pure speculation by the fans. Your points of contention are all against your own speculation.
There is a difference between a lab assistant and a co-creator. A very big difference.
Edit: By the way, in regards to the implication that Wily stole Proto witht he other MM1 robots; it's implied in that it's the only opportunity he had in the US continuity. It was popularised by the RS cartoon. However I hasten to note that that is NOT an official explanation for the US games. It could very well have happened as it did in the Japanese continuity.
And as I pointed out above, I do believe that the US canon story in question does not allow for the possibility of Wily making ProtoMan. "MegaMan" was their first and they then proceeded to make six industrial robots.
ProtoMan's creator is only mentioned as Dr. Light in MegaMan3 and you're not going to find a decent mention of Roll until MegaMan4, in which "MegaMan" was changed to "Rock". After the first game, mention of Wily working on MegaMan/Rock have completely vanished, only Light is stated in such games as MegaMan4, MegaMan8, MegaMan and Bass.
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I thought the only rewriting MMPU did was changing "Rock" to "Mega", and that felt more like a localization fumble than a deliberate retcon, to me.
I think Gauntlet has it right, here; the way you describe Wily does sound more like how you see him rather than how he actually is. Did the original games or sourcebooks ever say anything about Wily other than "he's a mad scientist who wants to take over the world, better stop him"?
And as faithful as you say RMRM is, there's one small problem with the ending: all of Light's robots (assuming you only used the Megabuster on them) are standing there waiting for you. Except that in other games, Light's robots are trying to kill you (like in the arcade games). Without the possibility of reprogramming or clones, what the hell went wrong there?
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They took a page from the manga, and had them repaired and their programming restored. MHX isnt the only game it seems, that has drawn some inspiration from the mangas. Ariga has the RM's back with Light after the Megaman 1 story.
I guess they used that and included it into the game.
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I think Gauntlet has it right, here; the way you describe Wily does sound more like how you see him rather than how he actually is. Did the original games or sourcebooks ever say anything about Wily other than "he's a mad scientist who wants to take over the world, better stop him"?
The books clearly emphasize Wily's achievements as nominee of the Nobel Prize, runner up of the world engineer grand prix and four year consecutive runner up of the LIT manual design contest; Light got the Nobel Prize and Light won all other things in which Wily became second. The story further establishes Wily's rivalry with Light as his one motivation in life and what he attempted to accomplish by stealing Light's robot was revenge. A revenge he had been planning for the many years he has been in exile.
Outside of their mutual time in Robot University, where they both obtained their PhDs, Wily has always set himself as Light's eternal rival in the field of science. Outside of any hidden agenda or legally forced cooperation (as with R3, RnF and SAR), Wily's not likely to work with Light. And all the times he has, he has worked with him as Light's equal, never as his assistant.
And as faithful as you say RMRM is, there's one small problem with the ending: all of Light's robots (assuming you only used the Megabuster on them) are standing there waiting for you. Except that in other games, Light's robots are trying to kill you (like in the arcade games). Without the possibility of reprogramming or clones, what the hell went wrong there?
It should be clear that Wily often successfully recaptures and reprograms the robots in question. Likewise, Rockman manages to return them to their senses each time. That is why they would assist Rockman during the events of Super Adventure and Battle and Chase but stand in opposition to him during the World and Arcade games, as well as the events of Rockman8.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQa8aVS-X3c&feature=PlayList&p=7C0FC1DC1952BA9A&index=0&playnext=1
Wily says "who are you?" While he does say Protoman doesn't take orders, he wouldn't be asking who he was to begin with. Not if he knows who he is. It looks like Proto's missing a line of dialogue there, but Wily does not recognise him. But even if he does ....
And as I pointed out above, I do believe that the US canon story in question does not allow for the possibility of Wily making ProtoMan. "MegaMan" was their first and they then proceeded to make six industrial robots.
Then your point of contention about Protoman resenting Wily is moot anyway and I'm not entirely sure why you brought it up.
Remember that we're talking about how the supposed "region" canon is different from the "other region" canon.
I dunno what you're talking about, but I'm talking about Wily being Light's assistant not really being a problem in the US continuity.
The books clearly emphasize Wily's achievements as nominee of the Nobel Prize, runner up of the world engineer grand prix and four year consecutive runner up of the LIT manual design contest; Light got the Nobel Prize and Light won all other things in which Wily became second. The story further establishes Wily's rivalry with Light as his one motivation in life and what he attempted to accomplish by stealing Light's robot was revenge. A revenge he had been planning for the many years he has been in exile.
Outside of their mutual time in Robot University, where they both obtained their PhDs, Wily has always set himself as Light's eternal rival in the field of science. Outside of any hidden agenda or legally forced cooperation (as with R3, RnF and SAR), Wily's not likely to work with Light. And all the times he has, he has worked with him as Light's equal, never as his assistant.
I just said I didn't advocate mixing canons. But, let's enter the world of fanon and mix them anyway. Since you insist.
So, Light took his rival-in-exile in as a lab assistant. In which he assisted in .... unnamed and unkown ways. Maybe Dr. Wily felt humiliated, but had things like "rent" to wory about and needed things like "food". Maybe he saw it as a temporary measure. As it stands, nothing says he liked being Light's assistant. As I said before, life is a funny thing.
It's less about what you think Wily would do based off the source materials, but what the source materials say Wily did. If they said Wily liked to dance the funky chicken, then Wily likes to dance the funky chicken. As it stads, if you insist on mixing the two, then Wily simply did all those things you mentioned and then became Light's lab assistant. Much to his chagrin, I am sure.
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Wily says "who are you?" While he does say Protoman doesn't take orders, he wouldn't be asking who he was to begin with. Not if he knows who he is. It looks like Proto's missing a line of dialogue there, but Wily does not recognise him. But even if he does ....
Wily was mocking him. They both recognize each other clearly.
Then your point of contention about Protoman resenting Wily is moot anyway and I'm not entirely sure why you brought it up.
As you may recall we were, as a result of Gonzo's remark on the cartoon, talking about applying the RS-cartoon's Wily made ProtoMan notion to the games. The contradiction that would arise with applying it to the "games" is that ProtoMan would hate Wily as much as Light and therefore not work for him. That is, when you evaluate it compared to Powered Up, which was as much released in the US as any other game.
Outside of Powered Up, there's no contradiction with any other "game" because the "games" only say Light did it, leaving Wily's possible involvement unaccounted for. Now, if you were to compare the very same Wily made ProtoMan notion to the "manual", and evaluate the statements there as nitpickingly literal; Wily and Light's cooperation first created MegaMan, therefore none can precede it.
It depends on the approach; if we regard Powered Up as overruling the US canon of old, the ProtoMan does not hate Wily contradiction shows why the RS cartoon is incorrect nowadays. If we take the cartoon with the very manual its based on, the MegaMan was first contradiction shows why the RS cartoon was never correct to begin with.
I dunno what you're talking about, but I'm talking about Wily being Light's assistant not really being a problem in the US continuity.
You might want to define what the "US continuinity" is. Because as far as I'm concerned, said US continuinity is either solely MM1's manual, which has sorely been overruled by MM4, MM8, MM&B and MMPU. Or we take all the games, Powered Up included.
And like I said, taking solely MM1 and its manual as a distinct canon, of course there's no contradiction. There are no other sources.
Taking all the games, the "US canon" automatically becomes the "Japanese canon" as the US canon is and always will be just a translation.
I just said I didn't advocate mixing canons. But, let's enter the world of fanon and mix them anyway. Since you insist.
I was replying to the Great Gonzo who wanted to know what the original sources said.
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Wily was mocking him. They both recognize each other clearly.
I doubt that. "Who are you? I have no need for a robot that won't take orders" sounds more like Wily doesn't think that weird robot would take his orders rather than mockery, to me.
Besides, Proto's scenario in MMPU/RMRM is an AU (Rock was taken as well), so what does it matter?
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I doubt that. "Who are you? I have no need for a robot that won't take orders" sounds more like Wily doesn't think that weird robot would take his orders rather than mockery, to me.
The very same story refers to Blues' nuclear power core and to stopping Wily's villainy with the powers he had given him.
Blues was not built by Light with a nuclear core; originally he had a Right Solar Pile power core, the same as Rock. The nuclear core he has in Rockman Rockman is a change Wily himself had done to his systems when he repaired Blues. That Wily tampered with Blues' systems to this extend in an effort to fix his power system defect is related to the powers he was given by Wily with which he will stop his villainy. Just look at his statement of "being born with weapons in his hands". It's said that after the industrial robots were created, a robot with built in weapons was also suddenly made. This robot is Blues, the original humanoid robot. The original humanoid, yet made with built-in weapons after the industrial robots were developed? The conclusion to all of this; Blues was reborn by Wily with weapons built into him.
In relation to this, the sourcebooks have also postulated that it's possible that because of Wily having worked on Blues, he knows how to reprogram Right's industrial robots. There are thus clear cut hints that this aspect of Blues' backstory occurs before the first game, Rockman Rockman reflects this by giving us valuable insight into that timeframe and in doing so established that Blues' rebirth by Wily was after Right's creation of the industrial robots.
Besides, Proto's scenario in MMPU/RMRM is an AU (Rock was taken as well), so what does it matter?
All of Rockman Rockman's alternate scenarios abide by a single common past until the moment of the game's beginning. Everything revealed in that story is a testimony to Blues before the events of the first game and therefore reveals a great deal about him in regards to his motivations in the events of Rockman3.
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Still, Proto's scenario sees Rock get captured along with most of Light's other robots, meaning that the regular events of MM1 couldn't happen in that path. So, those inconsistencies don't apply there.
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Just because the first game's event can't happen in the exact same manner doesn't mean that the past leading up to isn't the exact same. It's no different from the player's choice of letting Zero awaken in X5, getting the Z-saber in X3 or not retrieving all of Zero's parts in X2.
Likewise, it's very very comparable to choosing to play as Vent/Aile and Grey/Ashe in the ZX-series. As the developers explained there; "same world, different story." Both exist, are chosen ones, work at Giro Express, but when the assignment came in by chance Vent is brought along instead of Aile or by chance Aile is brought along instead Vent. The past is the exact same until the moment the player takes control and chooses one over the other.
For the sequels, the ZX-series has chosen to go with both scenarios; those who chose Aile also chose Grey, those who chose Vent also chose Ashe. The classic series has simply decided that it continues its story from the story of Rock, instead of for instance the story of Roll. The same reasoning is applied to such oddities as X or Zero in X4, Rockman or Forte in R&F, VAVA mode in IHX, etc.
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However, MMPU is a foregone conclusion, while ZX wasn't; not to mention, ZX's character choices work together, unlike MMPU's with the rest of the MM timeline. Megaman's scenario is the only one that doesn't violate the main series canon; Proto's is incredibly screwed up in relation to the rest of the series (and I imagine that's not the localization's fault), so it doesn't matter what the past was like.
The only way I can see Wily recognizing Proto after that remark is if he saw Proto's blueprints, and even then, they'd look different from the final robot and it'd only explain the Joes (if they weren't just coincidence).
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Protoman
Okay, all of that is besides the point (that Wily being Light's assistant is fine). Either Wily being Light's assistant does not mean he is his co-creator, or Wily repaired him and saved himself from proto's resentment or
And as I pointed out above, I do believe that the US canon story in question does not allow for the possibility of Wily making ProtoMan.
Whichever way you choose to go, Proto has no reason to resent Wily. I mean, take your pick. Proto not resenting Wily is no impediment to Wily being Light's assistant.
What is US canon?
US game continuity is all the games. That means manuals and game intros. I won't even go into MM&B, MM8, or whatever else you think is anomalous .... this is about Wily being Light's assistant.
Powered up's multiple scenarios are anomalies. Frankly, they're anomalies even within the Japanese canon. Especially Proto (where's his gratitude here?). But, any way you slice it, it doesn't even matter. Because you just said that Wily has no possibility in making Proto anyway. So arguing it is besides the point.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQa8aVS-X3c&feature=PlayList&p=7C0FC1DC1952BA9A&index=0&playnext=1
Why did I expect him to say "The name's Wily! Wily the robot sprite, they call me. I heard your wish, and, well, you're gonna get it! No more robots for you from now on!" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v58argQ3l-M)?
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This discussion as somehow gotten confusing.
Powered up is based on "what if" scenarios. Plus, If I recall ight, in the end, even though Wily stole Rock, he was unable to reprogram him, and thus made an evil copy which is the one you fight.
But I never played it, so I might be wrong.
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Megaman's scenario is the only one that doesn't violate the main series canon;
Proto's is incredibly screwed up in relation to the rest of the series (and I imagine that's not the localization's fault), so it doesn't matter what the past was like.
Rockman and Forte, RockmanX2, RockmanX4, RockmanX5 and RockmanX6 each have a multitude of events that do not happen in the timeline. They are the exact same way as Rockman Rockman's alternate events. All of these events happened as a result of player interference. Though all of it shares a mutual past, the future can no longer take the same course as the sequels, yet all those events are indisputably canon.
Case in point, Forte could never have faced Wily in Rockman and Forte; Rockman did. X could never have fought Zero because Zero fought his copy. RockmanX4 is still highly questionable in regards to who did what; neither of the stories have been proven to be wholly true. RockmanX5 can't have Zero awaken because X still remembers Zero in X6. In RockmanX6, the events where Zero are not found can't happen because of the events of RockmanX7 demanding Zero returned during X6. How is all that any different from what Rockman Rockman does?
The story of "Rockman Blues" is not at all messed up with the story of the rest of the series. All revealed backstory is in agreement with the events preceding the first game. The same holds true for "Rockman Roll", "Rockman Elecman" and the other alternate stories from that game. I don't see how it can be denied that Blues and Wily met before Rockman Rockman; he says so himself. Wily's words at the beginning of the game are not to be taken at face value; upon seeing Blues there, he has decided to break his bonds with Blues because Blues is a robot that can't take orders, therefore he acts like he doesn't know him.
Wily being Light's assistant does not mean he is his co-creator
US game continuity is all the games. That means manuals and game intros. I won't even go into MM&B, MM8, or whatever else you think is anomalous .... this is about Wily being Light's assistant.
For the record, the first game's manual treats Wily as both assistant and co-creator. Even though Light gets the most credit, MegaMan is still "their" first robot.
If you would look at the ingame mentions in MM4, MM&B, you would notice that all of them ignore the MM1 manual. The story of "Rock/MegaMan being made by Light" is different from "Rock/MegaMan being made by Light and Wily." You might also notice that "MetalMan" is the first robot Wily created, not "Rock/MegaMan".
Then there's what the manuals say; Rock himself was Light's "assistant" according to the Megaman and Bass manual. That same manual says Wily was Light's classmate at robot engineering school and they became rivals in their professional life. MM8's manual says roughly the same thing; both emphasize Rock/MegaMan is solely made by Light, and both emphasize Wily is Light's rival. Wily's very own MM8 biography sets himself as someone that's on a quest to become the greatest designer because as far back as their time at the "Robot Institute of Technology", Light got all the attention and accolades.
Frankly, all sources after MM1 disagree with the notion of Wily as Light's assistant.
Really, all the games are and should be seen as translations of the original games. Any deviation between the translation and original should be disregarded as part of the canon solely because subsequent games do not take into account errors in localization. Though, if you're so intend on following errors in localization, I suppose you also see Wily as X's comrade just because Sigma said so.
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The story of "Rockman Blues" is not at all messed up with the story of the rest of the series. All revealed backstory is in agreement with the events preceding the first game.
It is not. Proto has that unstable nuclear core before Wily met him; in the original games, it was a solar reactor that was messing him up.
Wily's words at the beginning of the game are not to be taken at face value; upon seeing Blues there, he has decided to break his bonds with Blues because Blues is a robot that can't take orders, therefore he acts like he doesn't know him.
There's "taking someone's words at face value" and then there's "constructing an entirely new meaning out of two short lines of dialogue". I don't remember there being any evidence that the two had met before.
Really, all the games are and should be seen as translations of the original games.
The originals can be fan-mistranslated or differently interpreted, though (remember Mr. Shin mentioning "Yakasa"?). And, yeah, errors in localization are annoying, but apart from those in the X series, I don't think any of them have been large enough to care about.
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For the record, the first game's manual treats Wily as both assistant and co-creator. Even though Light gets the most credit, MegaMan is still "their" first robot.
If you would look at the ingame mentions in MM4, MM&B, you would notice that all of them ignore the MM1 manual. The story of "Rock/MegaMan being made by Light" is different from "Rock/MegaMan being made by Light and Wily." You might also notice that "MetalMan" is the first robot Wily created, not "Rock/MegaMan".
Then there's what the manuals say; Rock himself was Light's "assistant" according to the Megaman and Bass manual. That same manual says Wily was Light's classmate at robot engineering school and they became rivals in their professional life. MM8's manual says roughly the same thing; both emphasize Rock/MegaMan is solely made by Light, and both emphasize Wily is Light's rival. Wily's very own MM8 biography sets himself as someone that's on a quest to become the greatest designer because as far back as their time at the "Robot Institute of Technology", Light got all the attention and accolades.
Frankly, all sources after MM1 disagree with the notion of Wily as Light's assistant.
Really, all the games are and should be seen as translations of the original games. Any deviation between the translation and original should be disregarded as part of the canon solely because subsequent games do not take into account errors in localization. Though, if you're so intend on following errors in localization, I suppose you also see Wily as X's comrade just because Sigma said so.
And ALL of this is merely your interpretation of the materials conflicting with the notion that Wily was Light's assistant. None of that is official materials conflcting with the notion.
MM1's manual says "assistant". Not "Co-creator". Even if it says Megaman is "their first robot", the relationship between the two is clear: lead scientist and assistant.
Light's rival could have become his assistant. There is no discontinuity. You're creating a fuss over it, but it's just not there. Even if it wasn't mention ever again, the discontinuity is still just not there.
Protoman
So you don't take "Who are you?" at face value but you do take "their robot" as such. You have a strange double standard. After this it seems even more clear that we're arguing your own personal canon against Wily being Light's assistant.
Won't even try addressing points in his scenario. Protoman, the XZ series, and the X series are all besides the point. Frankly, MM4, 8, and R&F are entirely besides the point as well. I should make a Straw Man spite to use here. ;)
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It is not. Proto has that unstable nuclear core before Wily met him; in the original games, it was a solar reactor that was messing him up.
I think you got that in reverse. The mentioned "unstable nuclear core" is the one Wily gave to Blues. Light originally built him with the solar one.
Here's the excerpt from HeatMan and Delta's research into what the classic books say about Blues:
Upon Proto Man's completion, Dr. Light realized there was a flaw in Proto Man's power generator and wanted to repair it. Proto Man seemingly misunderstood Dr. Light's intentions, fleeing the lab believing the operation would destroy his individuality.
Proto Man remained isolated over time as the flaw in his power generator grew worse. But just before he would have ceased functioning, he was found by Dr. Wily. Dr. Wily replaced his solar energy power generator with an atomic power generator. He also modified Proto Man to have battle capabilities.
----
Proto Man, serving Dr. Wily, attacked Mega Man on various occasions under the identity of Break Man. Due to the nature of his atomic power generator he could only battle for short periods of time.
I don't remember there being any evidence that the two had met before.
Taking into account the above;
---ProtoMan: When you attack me, watch out for my unstable nuclear core... One big shock and we're both vapor, I'd say.---
ProtoMan made clear cut mention of a piece of hardware he given by Wily. This is once again reflected in the following passage:
---ProtoMan: It's always been on my mind...what it means to be born with weapons in our hands. I haven't found the answer yet, but with the powers you've given me, I will crush your villainy.---
And the narration clearly specifies ProtoMan's being born with weapons as after the creation of humanoid industrial robots:
---The year 20XX. With the advancement of science, humans were able to create industrial humanoid robots. Then suddenly, a robot with built-in weapons made for combat was also developed...---
Which MegaMan agrees with, to his knowledge, there's no robot made for combat that precedes the creation of the Yellow Devil:
---MegaMan: This is a first! A robot made for combat?! Well, you're going to have to get out of my way!---
Yet ProtoMan is the first humanoid robot ever created. This apparent contradiction is only explained by Wily having worked on ProtoMan's "rebirth".
That Wily is well aware of who ProtoMan is, is also reflected in the following:
---Wily: I have no need for a robot that won't take orders! Nuhahahahah...---
"A robot that won't take orders", that is very much how ProtoMan described himself:
---ProtoMan: Robots are machines that follow orders. I'm a machine that doesn't, so what does that make me?---
Wily wouldn't have said that line unless he was well aware of his origins. He says similar things to all the others, rejecting them for certain quirks in their design and personality.
So, Wily knows exactly who ProtoMan is. ProtoMan is equipped with a power core Wily gave him. ProtoMan is equipped with weapons Wily gave him. ProtoMan acknowledges all of this.
Finally, I believe I mentioned before that the Japanese sourcebooks postulated the possibility that the only reason why Wily could so easily reprogram Dr. Light's robots was because of the knowledge he had obtained from having worked on ProtoMan's systems at the time he changed his solar core to a nuclear core.
Given all of the above, how can it be that Wily and ProtoMan never met?
Light's rival could have become his assistant. There is no discontinuity. You're creating a fuss over it, but it's just not there.
You know, you're looking for an outright statement: Wily was not Dr. Light's assistant!
Why would such a statement exist?
Why would the writers go to great lengths to disprove a notion that's not part of their story to begin with? We all know the original manual for Rockman1 did not speak of Wily as Light's assistant. So it's only natural that any and all subsequent materials that are not subject to the exact same treatment as the MegaMan1 manual, will not address the matter at hand.
Why are you clinging to "Wily is Light's assistant" as part of some region specific canon when none of the later games acknowledge that fact? Literally all of the later games have chosen to keep the "Japanese canon" as its story. The very fact that they did not keep up with consistently adding: "Wily was Light's assistant" into their manuals state that they've discarded the notion.
Powered Up is simply the final nail in the coffin as it is a remake of "MegaMan1" that just as many of the other sources disregards the Wily assistant story of favor of Wily as the exiled rival.
If the story was "US canon" they would have once again changed their manual to reflect it; they didn't.
In that regard, your "US canon" is actually "EU/German canon" as I recall hearing from BTD/Saber that the German manual for Powered Up did re-include the notion.
And well, that's just plain silly. The assistant notion is just something made up by people in charge of localization. There is no region specific canon, it doesn't exist; there is only the story that the original writers themselves wrote before we went through the process of translation/localization.
The originals can be fan-mistranslated or differently interpreted, though (remember Mr. Shin mentioning "Yakasa"?). And, yeah, errors in localization are annoying, but apart from those in the X series, I don't think any of them have been large enough to care about.
I consider making up whole pieces of story about Wily as Light's assistant as a error big enough to be cared about. Likewise to MegaMan telling Wily to go die and that he's more than robot, likewise to ProtoMan telling MegaMan they both have the same creator.
Those changes give completely the wrong impression than the original story.
And yes, the X-series is even worse.
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I think you got that in reverse. The mentioned "unstable nuclear core" is the one Wily gave to Blues. Light originally built him with the solar one.
Looking back on that, that wasn't worded very well, but I meant that he shouldn't have a nuclear core if he hasn't met Wily yet, because that's what he replaced Proto's original solar core with. The solar core was what was messing Protoman up originally, not the nuclear one (which still messed him up, but came after).
That Wily is well aware of who ProtoMan is, is also reflected in the following:
---Wily: I have no need for a robot that won't take orders! Nuhahahahah...---
Everything you mentioned up to this just sounds like a giant continuity headache on the fault of Capcom (on both sides of the pond).
Again, I must point out: It's highly likely that Wily got the impression that Proto wouldn't take orders.
Now, that "powers you've given me" line...just conflicts with the other timeline. (And who says Proto isn't just talking about the weapons he's acquired from the other bosses?) If he knows that Wily is a bad guy this early in the timeline, how can he be working with Wily in MM3? It makes no sense.
As for the manuals and game intros that don't mention Wily being an assistant to Light--could it be that they're just not reaching that far back into the past? And I don't find it implausible for Light to have had two assistants--Rock was a household robot, after all, and not a fellow scientist like Wily.
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Everything you mentioned up to this just sounds like a giant continuity headache on the fault of Capcom (on both sides of the pond).
I don't see how it's a continuity headache at all.. It's as Atomic Fire's encyclopedia states. (That is what they found out by looking at the classic R1~8 sources from before RR's release.) Wily finds Blues, changes the reactor from solar to nuclear and equips him with weapons. This happens before the first game as Wily uses the obtained knowledge to reprogram Right's robots with ease.
All of Rockman Rockman agrees with this except a simple "Who are you?" question Wily asked upon first seeing him. Either a completely normal reaction to not excepting to see Blues there, or a rejection of Blues as his partner.
If he knows that Wily is a bad guy this early in the timeline, how can he be working with Wily in MM3? It makes no sense.
The difference is that by witnessing Wily's broadcast, Blues learned of Wily's true character as early as that. But, Blues never did listen to Wily's broadcast, therefore he followed Wily, unaware of his true character, until the incident in which Kalinka was kidnapped.
Within Rockman Rockman it was the player's choice to have either Blues, Rockman or anyone else to listen to that broadcast; according to the story of Rockman3, it was Rockman who did. Therefore Blues remained blissfully ignorant of Wily's true character. (The broadcast in question is mentioned in the MM8/R8 manual as the time Rock found out about Wily's intent.)
(And who says Proto isn't just talking about the weapons he's acquired from the other bosses?)
Blues does not take weapons from the boss robots in Rockman Rockman. He's only done so in the Arcade games and Rockman9. Therefore, he is not talking about that. He's talking about something Wily had done to him preceding the events of Rockman Rockman; giving him his nuclear core and supplying him with weapons.
So you don't take "Who are you?" at face value but you do take "their robot" as such. You have a strange double standard. After this it seems even more clear that we're arguing your own personal canon against Wily being Light's assistant.
Narration has to be taken at face value, characters do not. The narration does not have reasons to say anything but the undeniable truth, the narration has no reason to be influenced by circumstance, the narrator is not a character.
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Blues does not take weapons from the boss robots in Rockman Rockman. He's only done so in the Arcade games and Rockman9. Therefore, he is not talking about that.
*hits self for her crappy memory*
I don't see how it's a continuity headache at all.
Here's the problem. The entirety of of MMPU, Proto is trying to stop Wily. Towards the end, he clearly says that he'll stop Wily's "villainy". Originally, Proto wasn't trying to stop diddly (except Light repairing him), and he didn't know Wily was a bad guy.
Thus, Proto's scenario in MMPU does not match up with the rest of the series.
"Who are you?"
ither a completely normal reaction to not excepting to see Blues there,
I think a more normal reaction would be more like, "What are you doing here?", not "WHO ARE YOU?" That implies that he doesn't recognize Proto at all.
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Here's the problem. The entirety of of MMPU, Proto is trying to stop Wily. Towards the end, he clearly says that he'll stop Wily's "villainy". Originally, Proto wasn't trying to stop diddly (except Light repairing him), and he didn't know Wily was a bad guy.
Thus, Proto's scenario in MMPU does not match up with the rest of the series.
I believe I've already explained this:
The difference is that by witnessing Wily's broadcast, Blues learned of Wily's true character as early as that. But, Blues never did listen to Wily's broadcast, therefore he followed Wily, unaware of his true character, until the incident in which Kalinka was kidnapped.
Within Rockman Rockman it was the player's choice to have either Blues, Rockman or anyone else to listen to that broadcast; according to the story of Rockman3, it was Rockman who did. Therefore Blues remained blissfully ignorant of Wily's true character. (The broadcast in question is mentioned in the MM8/R8 manual as the time Rock found out about Wily's intent.)
Do I really need to draw a complicated timeline diagram explaining how "Rockman Blues" works? It's the same way as "Rockman Elecman" and "Rockman Roll" operate.
The player's choice determines the circumstances of the story. The sequels determine what the player should have chosen. That is the explanation in its simplest form.
I think a more normal reaction would be more like, "What are you doing here?", not "WHO ARE YOU?" That implies that he doesn't recognize Proto at all.
If he even said "Who are you" in the Japanese script. I'm willing to wager that he actually noted his surprise in a a lot more ambiguous matter.
Really, given all the both RR and the whole of the classic series established, do you not think the "Who are you?" line is in question instead of everything else?
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Why are you clinging to "Wily is Light's assistant" as part of some region specific canon when none of the later games acknowledge that fact? Literally all of the later games have chosen to keep the "Japanese canon" as its story. The very fact that they did not keep up with consistently adding: "Wily was Light's assistant" into their manuals state that they've discarded the notion.
Why are you trying so desperately to uncanonize a canon part of MM history?
I'm not "clinging". I don't have to. It's there. No matter how you spin the facts, bring in non-relevant parts of the story, bring in all the other MM games in every MM series that does or does not count in the US game continuity, and a lot of stuff not relevant to consideration, but nothing you can do will erase it.
First you've tried insisting that it doesn't work within the story. But it does well enough. Then you say it doesn't work with Protoman's story. But you refute your own point later by saying Wily couldn't have built Proto anyway. Then you say it wouldn't work with the Japapanese stuff, which wasn't the point anyway. Then you say it doesn't work with itself. But it does. And now you're saying it was never referenced again in the manuals or games which also is irrelevant to it being canon.
You've brought in every single game you possibly could to try and uncanonize it, but you can't. You just can't. Because it causes no conflict. It seems like you're clinging to the wrong notion of it not being in continuity (in US continuity that is).
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[quoteDo I really need to draw a complicated timeline diagram explaining how "Rockman Blues" works? It's the same way as "Rockman Elecman" and "Rockman Roll" operate.][/quote]
No. I wasn't talking about the "player's choice"; I was talking about how Proto's story conflicts with the series.
I'm beginning to loathe this argument with quite a passion. It just doesn't feel like we're getting anywhere with it.
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You've brought in every single game you possibly could to try and uncanonize it, but you can't. You just can't. Because it causes no conflict. It seems like you're clinging to the wrong notion of it not being in continuity (in US continuity that is).
If you insist on going with something made up by localization as canon, then of course you're never going to see how it clashes with the original; you're going to make up any excuse to make it fit.
First you've tried insisting that it doesn't work within the story. But it does well enough. Then you say it doesn't work with Protoman's story. But you refute your own point later by saying Wily couldn't have built Proto anyway. Then you say it wouldn't work with the Japapanese stuff, which wasn't the point anyway. Then you say it doesn't work with itself. But it does. And now you're saying it was never referenced again in the manuals or games which also is irrelevant to it being canon.
Let's reiterate what we were talking about back then:
-The RS-cartoon notion that ProtoMan was built by Wily does not work with ProtoMan's original story from the gams; the RS-cartoon does not fit with the "overall japanese canon."
-The RS-cartoon notion that ProtoMan was built by Wily is in conflict the US MM1 manual; the RS-cartoon does not fit with the "US-canon of MM1 manual's"
Neither argument refutes the former. It merely establishes all three as distinct entities. THAT is what we were talking about back then.
Then you say it wouldn't work with the Japapanese stuff, which wasn't the point anyway. Then you say it doesn't work with itself. But it does. And now you're saying it was never referenced again in the manuals or games which also is irrelevant to it being canon.
What you say is irrelevant is exactly the point that IS relevant!. The US MM1 is something made up in localization. The current releases are all direct translations from the Japanese games. Those basic facts state that the MM1 manual of old and the recent releases are incompatible by definition, therefore not the same canon
No. I wasn't talking about the "player's choice"; I was talking about how Proto's story conflicts with the series.
But the only conflict is the player's choice of playing as ProtoMan. By choosing ProtoMan you have put him in a situation in which he never was. If you choose Rock, the stories continues as normal. Rockman Blues does not lead into Rockman2, but the past leading up to Rockman Blues is the same past that leads up to Rockman Rockman.
Rockman Blues
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Rockman Rockman > Rockman 2 > Rockman 3
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Rockman > Rockman 2 > Rockman 3
Likewise:
R&F (Forte)
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R&F (Rock)>Rockman9
and
ZX (Aile) > ZXA (Grey)
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ZX (Vent) > ZXA (Ashe)
and
MHX (VAVA)
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MHX (X) > X2
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X > X2
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Whichever, I really think you're just counting what you wanna count while going to extrordinary lengths to not count what you wanna count. It seems to me that your version of coninuity in the US games is what you decide and not what Capcom USA has decided. So I won't buy it.
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What you say is irrelevant is exactly the point that IS relevant!. The US MM1 is something made up in localization. The current releases are all direct translations from the Japanese games. Those basic facts state that the MM1 manual of old and the recent releases are incompatible by definition, therefore not the same canon
Wait...it sounds to me like the other manuals retconned the MM1 manual out of existence, so wouldn't that mean that both regions are the same canon then?
but the past leading up to Rockman Blues is the same past that leads up to Rockman Rockman.
But Proto's line towards the end would imply that he knew Wily was a nutter before the events of MM1/MMPU (and that he ran off before he got the shades and scarf, since Wily doesn't recognize him). That's not the same past that leads up to RMRM or MM3.
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Only if you accept his line of logic that the other manuals retconned MM1's out of existence. Which I do not.
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Wait...it sounds to me like the other manuals retconned the MM1 manual out of existence, so wouldn't that mean that both regions are the same canon then?
that is exactly what it means. nowadays we have very little of the old localization blunders of old. plus, even though the US games had Megaman discover that Proto was his brother, where in the japaese story he still doesnt know, we dont have the glaring error of Wily having worked with Light as an assistant. the folowng games to 1 corrected that localization change.
But Proto's line towards the end would imply that he knew Wily was a nutter before the events of MM1/MMPU (and that he ran off before he got the shades and scarf, since Wily doesn't recognize him). That's not the same past that leads up to RMRM or MM3.
The way I see it, any of the playable characters besides Megaman in Rockman Rockman, are what if's, they are alternate possibilities, alternate timelines in which that robot was left. but in all, they are not relevant to the current story, they only add some food for thought, nothing else. they are not what really happened in the end.
you decide and not what Capcom USA has decided.
thats the thing, Capcom of USA has no say in the story. what Capcom japan says is the story is the story. what Capcom of US says is the story is irrelevant and not canon. the game is made by Capcom japan, and the people there are the ones who decide what the story is. they then leave capcom US to tanslate the games and localize them. Capcom US decided it would be a cool twist to add that Wily was Lights assistant and that he rebelled. So they wrote that into their manual. However, that is not what actually happened. It is not canon. there is no such thing as a Japanese Canon and a US canon. Its just one, mega/rockman canon. only the Localization changes things to better suit their personal tastes, and what they think the local audience will respond better to. that does not make that the true story.
If a Shakespeare book says that Romeo and Juliet in the end killed themselves because the other was dead, Romeo with poison, Juliet with a knife, that is the story that Shakespeare wrote, correct? now, when that book is localized in France, they decide to change it so that Mercutio was actually Romeo's brother. and that Juliette had a sister named mary who died before the story started. That is not the proper story, that is a non canon add on to appeal to the French audience better. it was not what its creator intended, and therefore not canon.
this is the same thing, basically.
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Capcom of US says is the story is irrelevant and not canon.
Its just one, mega/rockman canon. only the Localization changes things to better suit their personal tastes, and what they think the local audience will respond better to. that does not make that the true story.
Well, it's canon to the games Capcom USA puts out of course.
The entire story is based off the Japanese games, true. The Japanese storyline is the main storyline, also true. However, whatever changes Capcom USA makes (for instance, the name changes) becomes canon for that region. It becomes canon in regards to that story. What you're doing is just picking and coosing what's canon, which isn't right at all.
It's like when Sentai was made into Power Rangers. Or when Sailor Moon was dubbed. It doesn't matter at all what the "true story" is. Only what the story we're talking about it is. And, in this case, we're talking about the US series of games. Whatever is given afterwards is additive, not subtractive.
In this case, everything has ben additive. Nothing has overwritten that point. So MM1's story still holds true. Especially since it's been so influencial here. While not canon tot he games, it solidifies it in the series in people's minds. Just as MM knowing Proto is his brother. It's been additive, not overwriting. Which is why you desperately have to scramble to disprove it.
So you can toss in every single game you want, but ultimately you're just confusing the issue and making your point by befuddling everyone else; not by being right.
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Yknow, Im just going to back out of this argument now... It was confusing to begin with, and doesn't seem like it will get any better. I added my 2 Cents, im outta here.
*backs away from the topic slowly*
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-u-' Since it has no conflict with anything, Wily being Light's assistant is still canon. For the US game canon in which Capcom USA, not Capcom Japan, calls the shots. It's ... a really simple thing, really.Just like, in the US game canon, it's "Megaman" and "Protoman" and not "Rockman" and "Blues". Capcom USA makes the story for the USA games. It doesn't matter what the "true story" is.
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If Capcom Japan tells them to change something they have to though.
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If Capcom Japan tells them to change something they have to though.
I'm not entirely sure the process works like that. But, assuming it does, then they change it and that change becomes canon for the USA game continuity. However ... Wily being Light's assistant? That hasn't changed. Until it's outright contradicted their word (especially their written word) > what any fan thinks or conjectures.
There's many canon continuities (Ariga's manga, the Ruby Spears cartoon, Captain N) and even micro contrinuities (the PC games, Marvel VS Capcom, Rockman Strategy) ... if it's officially made or licenced it's canon. The only thing that's not canon is doujinshi, fan ficiton, fan art, video game magazines ... I'm not entirely certain interviews and such are canon either since author intent is not always realised.
But I will allow this: the Japanese game continuity is the most relevant one, since everything stems from it. But it's going too far to say it's the only one, or even the only one that counts.
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But Proto's line towards the end would imply that he knew Wily was a nutter before the events of MM1/MMPU (and that he ran off before he got the shades and scarf, since Wily doesn't recognize him). That's not the same past that leads up to RMRM or MM3.
He learned Wily was a nutter at the beginning of Rockman Blues (The title screen changes from Rockman Rockman to Rockman Blues, Rockman Roll, etc.) when he viewed that broadcast. As for Blues' shades and scarf, their origins are rather unexplained, it's mostly just a style thing.
Whether or not Wily recognizes him.. as we've discussed; I believe he does. Or at the least, if he didn't recognize him immediately, it's just because he had to look twice to comprehend it was really Blues standing there. But all of this would be conjecture. Really, as this single line is an anomaly, I think we'd better ask the question of what the original Japanese script said.
in the US game canon, it's "Megaman" and "Protoman" and not "Rockman" and "Blues".
So which is it? AquaMan or SpoutMan? YamatoMan or JapanMan? Treble or Gospel? Rock or Mega? Volnutt or Voulnutt?
In this case, everything has ben additive. Nothing has overwritten that point.
I presume all of this is true as well:
-The time institute Wily stole an experimental time machine from is called Chrono Institute.
-The experimental time machine Wily stole from the time institute is called Time Skimmer.
-MegaMan told Wily to die!
-MegaMan is more than a robot!
-Bradbury K. Wells, Times Staff Writer, reported on X's attack on the Maverick Production Facility.
-Serges was collecting Zero's parts.
-Serges was trying to achieve Zero's "unification" to fulfill a prophecy.
-Sigma should have studied the blueprints closer.
-Doppler used his Neuro Computer to prevent abnormal behavior in Reploids (even though said neuro computer is his own brain?)
-X defeated Vile years before the events of X3.
-Vile will haunt X till the day he dies.
-The galaxy is at peace after centuries of fighting the Reploid War (even though it's still 21XX, the war started several months ago and there is no peace?)
-Wily used to be X's comrade.
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-The time institute Wily stole an experimental time machine from is called Chrono Institute.
-The experimental time machine Wily stole from the time institute is called Time Skimmer.
Wait, wasn't that in the original manual? Or at least hinted at?
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Well, now, I didn't say that the US game continuity was great, did I?
Again, you're bringing in irrelevant things and irrelevant series and making things needlessly complicated into a discussion which is strictly about Wily being Light's assistant in the US game continuity. We can lump all of that into the "arguments that are meant to confuse and misdirect" category.
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Yeah, and Gate and Alia's abilities came out of nowhere, too.
I guess that makes Alia somehow a part of Roll's lineage?
I cannot wait for that Wily/Serges/Isoc theory to be dispelled. We've seen Wily's presence at work since at least X5, if you don't count Zero and believe X's imperfect coding is what caused the virus. I don't doubt that some strains of the virus would lend its hosts to behave in the same mannerisms, in a Carl Jung sort of way, as Dr. Wily. But if Serges and Isoc were in any way inhabited by Dr. Wily directly, that egomaniac would have made it known.
On topic:
Iris = Mother Elf. I still think it's possible, but it probably won't turn out to be true. Zero will just remember Mother Elf from way back when, and that's that.
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Well, now, I didn't say that the US game continuity was great, did I?
Again, you're bringing in irrelevant things and irrelevant series and making things needlessly complicated into a discussion which is strictly about Wily being Light's assistant. We can lump all of that into the "arguments that are meant to confuse and misdirect" category.
You were the one going on about two seperate canons. and you accuse Zan of "choosing what he believes" and saying that if Capcom US says it, it is part of the US canon. by that logic, (or how I understood it anyway,) you would mean that those things are also part of the American canon.
You cant say all that then say it is irrelevant information, since then you are picking and choosing as well.
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You were the one going on about two seperate canons. and you accuse Zan of "choosing what he believes" and saying that if Capcom US says it, it is part of the US canon. by that logic, (or how I understood it anyway,) you would mean that those things are also part of the American canon.
You cant say all that then say it is irrelevant information, since then you are picking and choosing as well.
I never said it wasn't part of US Capcom game canon. I said it's irrelevant to bring it up at all. Because it is part of Capcom game canon. It is not under dispute.
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Not really. We are refuting your point on "US capcom game canon" :P
Plus, this is RPM. are you SURPRISED that it went from Wily and protoman to this?
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Not really. We are refuting your point on "US capcom game canon" :P
Plus, this is RPM. are you SURPRISED that it went from Wily and protoman to this?
You're not refuting it very well. ;)
You've just made a lost of reasons why there *is* a US game canon at all. Because all those things? They'd be in it. It's not a refutation if you're ... getting the idea.
edit: No, not surprised that the topic tried to derail itself. But I keep on topic. Eye on the ball.
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Wait, wasn't that in the original manual? Or at least hinted at?
The name of the experimental time machine and the time institute that build it are unspecified in the original manual. Likewise, I forgot to mention in my previous post they pretty much made up the notion of "approximately 37.426 years" into the future. (Just like the names, the years were never specified.)
We can lump all of that into the "arguments that are meant to confuse and misdirect" category.
I think the US manuals do a good job of confusing and misdirecting in itself.
Hmm.. I think I forgot to mention Monsteropolis, that strange multi-faceted land of robot-like humanoids. I remember distinctly that MegaMan, chosen defender of the universe and its inhabitants, dared to single-handedly penetrate seven separate empires of Monsteropolis, eliminating the leaders and followers of these sovereignties.
Care to explain to me what the hell I just said?...
On a much more serious note, MegaMan resisted reprogramming. I'm pretty sure Powered Up overruled the manual right then and there. MegaMan never resisted reprogramming, he was never reprogrammed to begin with, Wily had no need for a pile of scrap metal with no special abilities! Likewise, MegaMan8's manual and MegaMan4's intro seems to implicate no reprogramming of MegaMan took place either.
So between Monsteropolis that strange multi-faceted land of robot-like humanoids and MegaMan resisting reprogramming he was never subjected to, why were we to believe Wily was Light's assistant again?
I cannot wait for that Wily/Serges/Isoc theory to be dispelled. We've seen Wily's presence at work since at least X5, if you don't count Zero and believe X's imperfect coding is what caused the virus. I don't doubt that some strains of the virus would lend its hosts to behave in the same mannerisms, in a Carl Jung sort of way, as Dr. Wily. But if Serges and Isoc were in any way inhabited by Dr. Wily directly, that egomaniac would have made it known.
There's fairly little to counter the Wily/Sagesse/Isoc theory. Inafune himself said Wily was brought back by the Virus. Between what Inafune said and what Sagesse and Isoc actually did in the plot, you'd raise more plotholes saying they aren't Dr. Wily than saying that they are. For example, how can both Sagesse and Isoc do the impossible? Touch the untouchable, break the unbreakable, row row fight the power.
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You're not refuting it very well. ;)
Im not exactly good at these kinds of discussions.
You've just made a lost of reasons why there *is* a US game canon at all. Because all those things? They'd be in it.
are you DEAD serious? even though such facts contradict the timeline and all that has been presented? Seriously? centuries of fighting, even though its the exacy same time frame? thats like saying JFK's assassination was yesterday when it really happened years ago.
Wily used to be X's comrade, even though they NEVER met? and Wily was an enemy LONG before Light so much as thought up a single circuit in X's head?
If you are seriously telling me you consider that US canon, then I cant argue anymore, you are going to believe it no matter what I say.
EDIT: I suppose Megaman 1's box art is also what Megaman really looks like right? Since Capcom US had it made. Megaman 1, 2, and 9's horrendous art.
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Oh, finally trying to be on topic.
You know, the Megaman series does expend to different worlds. Maybe it's more correct to say "galaxy", but he still went to space so that falls into the "what EVER" side of the field. Even if it wasn't in MM1. Like Heatman's being hotter than two suns. "what EVER".
Frankly, fighting as Megaman does, does qualify as "resisting reprogramming". Not through force of sheer will, but with a buster. That's a better post, tho, I'll give you credit for that one. That's actually on topic.
I think the US manuals do a go job of confusing and misdirecting in itself.
Funny, the manual didn't bring the X, EXE, and ZX series into this...
@Flame:
Box art and box synopsys contradict too much to be considered part of US game canon. It's a case-by-case basis. But it's it's own canon.
Stupid translations? That's canon. Maybe not literal (thinking the comerade line here), but it's canon. Never said it was great. Saying it exists.
US game canon =/= Japanses game canon.
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But the Box art shows what you should expect from the Game! And the description tells you all about what is happening in the game!
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As I said earlier.
Wily being Light's assistant does not contradict.
The back of the boxes contradict. They're their own wacky world while what does not contradict is a real part of the story.
Edit: And that's on a case-by-case basis with only the things that contradict being the exception.
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You never specified that before. You outright said that whatever Capcom US presents is part of US canon. Naturally, that would include the boxes and decriptions, because logically, they are exactly that, descriptions of the game, so people can see what its about before buying it.
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Funny, the manual didn't bring the X, EXE, and ZX series into this...
Stupid translations? That's canon. Maybe not literal, but it's canon. Never said it was great. Saying it exists.
No, really, without me being rhetoric or sarcastic.. I will ask this seriously: how are we to reconcile multiple different names for the same character, which is the true canon one?
Likewise, I must seriously ask: What are robot-like humanoids and what is the land of Monsteropolis they are charge of? How does that compare to what we see in the game and especially its remake Powered Up?
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You never specified that before. You outright said that whatever Capcom US presents is part of US canon.
I did so say it before. I said Wily was Light's assistant because it does not contradict.
You guys are just being irrelevant now.
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Hey shouldn't this topic maybe be split into its own Classic section thread over "US vs Japanese canon" or something?
This topic is for small little discussions and little funny tidbits we find online, not for a full scale argument over it. >_>;
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No, really, without me being rhetoric or sarcastic.. I will ask this seriously: how are we to reconcile multiple different names for the same character, which is the true canon one?
Likewise, I must seriously ask: What are robot-like humanoids and what is the land of Monsteropolis they are charge of? How does that compare to what we see in the game and especially its remake Powered Up?
Maybe robot-like humanoids are people who care enough to answer your serious questions? Or spend so long on inane trivia (which makes us robot-like humanoids).
I'll just let you fill in that blank yourself. Whatever it is, it's Capcom game canon. Ask them. It's up tot hem to explain it, not me. The topic's gone on too long for me to be anything more than rhetorical or sarcastic at this point. But all those stupid differences come from official sources. And are canon to the series to varying degrees.
Capcom USA makes capcom USA's game canon. And, as you've pointed out, there are differences. In some cases, stupid differences.
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What would be nice is if maybe our other Megaman experts would jump in and give their two cents so its not just Us thee arguing about the matter.
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No, they're much too smart for that.
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:(
But this is getting stale.
Whatever. If you wish to believe your thing about the US Canon, go ahead, theres no reason for you to not believe if you want to that badly. Ill stick with everyone else to the notion of one canon, and a messed up US localization.
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Come now, drop those weapons for a moment.
I know I'm sidetracking here, but I'm seriously asking this out of interest. Not going to discredit the US canon, let us debate what it actually says and be clear on it.
Under the premise of "ancient theories/fanon", how did we ever account for Monsteropolis and robot-like humanoids? The manual statements paint a fairly weird picture in my head. Those few paragraphs seem quite easily misread and turned into exactly what this topic is about.
Just as much, I wonder which names you think of as the actual US canon. Even ignoring such issues as the weird name changes in EXE, and DASH. Within classic we've had such peculiar cases as Light vs Write, Wily vs Wiley and Rock vs Mega. How do we reconcile multiples names such as that into one concise canon? You say canon is what does not contradict, what about these oddities?
Wily being Light's assistant does not contradict.
Going back to this. I have mentioned before that I find Wily's self imposed exile after being banished from the scientific community to be rather peculiar when compared and merged with the assistant notion, but I do suppose I can not accurately pinpoint that in relation to the creation of Rock and the other industrial robots. His exile could indeed theoretically postdate that event. Touché.
Asking this as seriously as the above questions: in that US canon, Wily being Light's assistant working on MegaMan and the 6 industrial robots, was or wasn't Wily involved in Roll's creation as well?
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Well, okay...
In the past people have uterly disregarded the term "Monsteropolis". I, however, have embraced it and have it as the main location of all the fan fic adventures I write about. Mainly because of how utterly bizzarre it is and because it's official.
I've never really liked how MM fandom understands / understood continuity. It's very much always was in the line of "one true" continuity and not "everything in their proper place".
Naming conventions are understood to be interpretations of the Japanese origional. However, the most consistant name is understood, to me, to be the overriding one. I view it as a TF fan does.
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Hot_Rod_%28G1%29
The Transformers fandom is even worse than MM for this. Take Hot Rod. Hot Rod is his origional name, and Hot Rodimus is his Japanese name. When he becomes leader he's Rodimus Prime (or Rodimus Convoy in Japan). He later gets dumbed down to Hot Rod again. Now, reletively recently his Hot Rod toy was reissued as "Rodimus Major" (because Hasbro lost the coyright for Hot Rod). Then he became simply "Rodimus" in the Classis line. ALL of these guys are the same character, from the same continuity. And that's just the US and Japan; the relevant names. However, Hot Rod is the name used in most media, so Hot Rod is the dominant name.
The most corect way to do it is the way it's done in the Transfandom. You note ALL names. All of them. You note why they are the way they are. You use the most consistant one, but they are all understood as "correct" in one facet or another. In case of Rock, you'd note that his Japanese name is Rockman, his American name is Megaman. You'd note that MM4 established his pre-MM name was Rock, but that this was changed in MM PU to be "Mega" (probably because they were being too literal). For me personally I'd use "Rock" as his dominany pre-MM name, even though it was overridden by "Mega". It's lasted a while while "Mega" was just in PU, so it hasn't shown it's staying power. I'll admit that that's more arbitary; both would be correct.
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Beast_Wars#.22Other.22_Beast_Wars
This is how the TF Wiki explains the odd Beast Wars; a similar situation as the back of the box stuff in MM. This is how I would catagorise US game and box continuity. It's ALL canon. But, it's not all nessasarily in the same continuity. Since MM's story is so much sparser it would depend on how much it contradicts.
The Transfandom has this continuity and name stuff down pat. It's a FAR superior way of cataloguing continuity than simply having one "true" continuity where we take a dash of Japanese with a smattering of American and season it with cartoon and mangas trivia.
As for Roll, she is not mentioned in the MM1 manual. It would be too much to say that Wily was ivolved in Roll's creation as Light's assistant; it only says the MM1 RMs. Thereofore: maybe Light made her on his own. I don't like to stray too far from what the source material says.
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It's a FAR superior way of cataloguing continuity than simply having one "true" continuity where we take a dash of Japanese with a smattering of American and season it with cartoon and mangas trivia.
Allow me to explain what I think is a far superior way of cataloguing continuity. It doesn't involve dashes of and smatterings of. The "game story" is completely separate from any manga or cartoon. The game story is the same in all regions. Each region just has translations of the original. Anything that sneaks in during localization is regarded as just that; something the translators made up and is therefore not part of the game story.
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Under the premise of "ancient theories/fanon", how did we ever account for Monsteropolis and robot-like humanoids? The manual statements paint a fairly weird picture in my head. Those few paragraphs seem quite easily misread and turned into exactly what this topic is about.
I can't answer that, but I did notice that Capcom, in regards to the Classic series at least, doesn't give a crap if the robots act like humans until it's convenient to the plot (like MM9, and that bit in MM7). So "robot-like humanoids" could be interpreted as robots who act fully human.
Monsteropolis could be seen as a huge region on land that Wily had occupied, or Wily's base (with the stages being different facets). I always found it funny that the stages were referred to as "empires"; when you think about it, they could easily cover more land than what you see in-game. (MMPC3 had very large stages, if they didn't just FEEL like it. Damn mazes)
In the past people have uterly disregarded the term "Monsteropolis".
I think the Dreamwave comic named Mega's home city something similar (Monstropolis, I think). Megaman Central also provided the name "Gigapolis".
You know, the Dreamwave comic was fairly interesting--it read like Megaman if you weren't too familiar with the games prior to 8, or like old Angelfire-exclusive fanon. The way Proto acts (more aggressive than usual), Mega's interactions with humans, Heatman's prominence (in #2, anyway), etc.
Anything that sneaks in during localization is regarded as just that; something the translators made up and is therefore not part of the game story.
Admittedly, some of the localization stuff is interesting (thinking specifically of that Bradbury K. Wells fellow). I guess we should count ourselves lucky that all of the JP-only games were side games or compilations (or quietly shoved to one side like SAR); I mean, look at Final Fantasy in the SNES era.
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@Zan - While you're right in distinguishing game story from cartoon continuity, not all sites do that. Still. Because it has not been properly catagorised. So people find this information, which you can't eleminate because it exists, and they get steered wrong.
Regarding only the Japanese sources is fine .... if all we talk about is the Japanses game continuity. And if that's all you're interested in considering, that's fine. That's your area of interest.
However, it's an inferior way of calaoguing continuity. Because you are "throwing away" information. You're not accounting for it anywhere. And, depite it not counting towards Japanese game continuity it still exists. The information doesn't go away because you don't want to include it or because it's silly.
So, Wily being Light's assitant. Thrown away. You don't account for it. However it's right there in the MM1 manuals. And those manuals influenced a lot of other media, for years afterwards.
The superior way is putting it within it's rigthful continuity. The US game continuity. It's a more complex system (since you're accounting for different continuities), but FAR more accurate.
To put it simply: saying Japanese game comtinuity > all other continuities is not wrong. Not really. But it's not entirely correct either. And it's not all encompassing.
Edit:
The DW comics were set in "Mega City" USA.
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There's fairly little to counter the Wily/Sagesse/Isoc theory. Inafune himself said Wily was brought back by the Virus. Between what Inafune said and what Sagesse and Isoc actually did in the plot, you'd raise more plotholes saying they aren't Dr. Wily than saying that they are. For example, how can both Sagesse and Isoc do the impossible? Touch the untouchable, break the unbreakable, row row fight the power.
Like the reference. :D
Yes, Inafune did indeed say Wily was brought back by the virus; we saw that clearly in X5. But seriously, plotholes? What's impossible for one scientist may not be for another. Isoc and Serges, having gotten their hands on Zero's technology and Wily's brilliance, combined with how many ever decades of technological progress (another thing to keep in mind) would probably have found it only moderately difficult to manipulate the coding. Look at all that Ciel did. She really specialized in robotics and programming, but next thing you know, she's designing ultra-efficient power generators, resurrecting Reploids from previously incorrigible states in bite-size format, and even starting to form some kind of pathway to the human soul (which Serpent and Model W promptly exploit in ZX).
I just think Wily would take more credit for his work; there's more Wily in Zero's head than there is in the outer world.
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Edit:
The DW comics were set in "Mega City" USA.
My faulty memory, then.
About fans mixing continuities: Is that how the rest of us got so anal about continuity? XD I've been thinking of listing all the different continuities, just for the hell of it.
EDIT: I did; hope I didn't miss anything. EDIT 2: Fixed. EDIT 3: fixed again. >.>
Megaman:
- Original games (separated by region if desired)
- Licensed games
- Manuals
- Boxart
- Rockman Kikki Ippatsu
- Origin of Rock strip (included in R20)
- Picture book
- Ruby-Spears cartoon
- Captain N
- Ariga’s mangas
- Ikehara’s mangas
- Izuki’s mangas
- Battle and Chase mangas
- 4-komas
- Dreamwave comics
- Upon a Star
- Novas Adventuras de Megaman
- Club Nintendo
- Marvel VS. Capcom
- Tatsunoko Vs. Capcom
Megaman X:
- Original games (separated by region if desired)
- Manuals
- Boxart
- Ariga’s manga
- MegaMissions series
- Iwamoto’s mangas
- Ikehara’s manga (X1 only)
- X5 manga (not Iwamoto’s)
- X7 4koma
- Dreamwave comic (unfinished story)
- Ruby-Spears cartoon (one episode only)
Megaman.EXE:
- Original games (mostly name changes between regions)
- Takamisaki’s mangas
- Anime (.EXE, Axess, Stream, Beast, Beast +) (Separate by region if desired)
- Takumi’s mangas
- Onimusha Blade Warriors
Megaman Zero:
- Original games
- Kajima’s mangas
- SNK Vs. Capcom: SVC Chaos
- Onimusha Blade Warriors
Megaman Legends:
- Original games
- Namco X Capcom
- Tatsunoko VS. Capcom
- Manga
Megaman Star Force:
- Original games
- Itagaki’s mangas
- Takumi’s mangas
- Anime (RNR, RNR Tribe) (Separate by region if desired)
Megaman ZX:
- Original games, Gigamix
- Manga (ZX, ZXA)
Unofficial:
- The Protomen
- The Megas
- Pirate games with their own stories (ex: Rocman X, Zook Z, Rockman Zero, Rockman and Crystal)
- Doujinshi
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The US game continuity. It's a more complex system (since you're accounting for different continuities), but FAR more accurate.
Ah, the ability of anonymous Reploids to reconstruct and enhance the unanalyzeable, the centuries of Maverick Wars before Eurasia, the destruction of Zero by X's hands, the ancient partnership between Wily and X... U.S. canon rocks. 8D
Sorry, Gauntlet, but I have to disagree on the "accuracy" point.
Anything that sneaks in during localization is regarded as just that; something the translators made up and is therefore not part of the game story.
Mostly agreed, however there is one exception to the rule if you account for terminology changes. It is exceedingly rare, although possible, for a change in terms to impact story events. This happened in Legends 2. Instead of Barrel enjoying a pun-name for his mysterious baby, we're left to ponder what powers of persuasion Roll had at less than one year of age.
Yes, Inafune did indeed say Wily was brought back by the virus; we saw that clearly in X5. But seriously, plotholes? What's impossible for one scientist may not be for another. Isoc and Serges, having gotten their hands on Zero's technology and Wily's brilliance, combined with how many ever decades of technological progress (another thing to keep in mind) would probably have found it only moderately difficult to manipulate the coding.
The problem is it's not "one scientist", it's the entire scientific community of 21XX, as explicitly stated by Izzy Glow in X5. It's also the direct statement of the almighty credits cast list of X2 and X3. By X5 "nobody" has fully analyzed X and Zero. This is not to say noone ever will (somebody evidently surpassed Light's knowledge of Zero in 22XX, looking at XCM, then of course there's Zero-series two centuries later), but Serges and Isoc need to be taken in the context that is a much earlier timeframe than other events that establish the eventual better understanding of X and Zero.
Serges not only reconstructed but enhanced Zero (including the introduction of the Z-Saber, which X5, X6, and Z1 all establish as linked to Zero's power). He also makes references to X's maker, which CoA conveniently chose to ignore. Isoc is working as an assistant to Gate, who has made remarkable progress analyzing Zero yet still does not understand it fully (as he himself admits upon defeat). Despite this, Isoc's knowledge of Zero actually surpasses Gate's, as does his interest (which Gate himself refers to as an obsession). He is also the only character to have claimed to see Zero prior to Nightmare Zero's defeat, making him the likely candidate for Zero's repair (including a replacement saber). That's an awful lot to dismiss.
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Ah, the ability of anonymous Reploids to reconstruct and enhance the unanalyzeable, the centuries of Maverick Wars before Eurasia, the destruction of Zero by X's hands, the ancient partnership between Wily and X... U.S. canon rocks.
Sorry, Gauntlet, but I have to disagree on the "accuracy" point.
Hey, being facetious about it does not discount it's accuracy.
It's not about making sence of the MM universe. It's about accounting for information. Where it comes from and what it pertains to. You're not incorrect to adhere to the Japanese stuff. However, you're missing some stuff. I don't like missing stuff.
Frankly, the more rediculous .... the better.
@The Great Gonzo
Doujins aren't canon in any way. You or I could make them, if we wanted to, so .... no. If you wish to make a list include every fan fiction ever made by anyone.
You're missing the various licenced games (seperated out by manufacturer since we know for sure that they're canon within their own series, but not with each other)
Is the Radio drama part of Japanese game continuity proper? If not, it goes on the list.
US box continuity. It conflicts too much ith everything. I gotta make a section on that stuff. Really, I forgot how wacky it was and my site is all about the shitty elements of MM.
There a two page "origin of MM" strip that came with RM4 (I believe) that's been overwritten by RMRM. It's in it's own little bubble now.
Novas Adventuras de Megaman. Crappy, but licenced.
If you follow Zan's logic you might wanna seperate out the MM1 manual from itself, or group it box stories. I don't, but I leave it to you.
There's a picture-book about Plantman and Roll that I am unsure is Japanese game canon. Might be tho. I dunno.
Of the classic series, those are the ones I think you missed that I can remember offhand.
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Iceman likes his sister. 8D
anyway, you most definitely should make a section for that! you could have 1, and 2, (and show how the box art eventually progressively got better, then show coa's funny 9 joke)
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I was inspired by this topic. I tried to make good copies of the MM box art using peices from various sources on the net and here at home.
Sadly, the result was .... not so good.
I do have a section on the old MM box art already in my image gallery. It's pretty old now tho. Although I did find a very detailed story of how Wily betrayed Light in a gaming magazine ... relating to MM5! Its not canon since it's not from any official source, but it is interesting. I'm planning on posting it pretty soon.
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Cant wait. :)
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-MegaMan told Wily to die!
-MegaMan is more than a robot!
Hmm, now I wonder if MegaMan was just lying to try to scare Wily out of doing anything again. Obviously it didn't work, as Dr. Wily must have lost his fear of death by now.
I suppose Megaman 1's box art is also what Megaman really looks like right? Since Capcom US had it made. Megaman 1, 2, and 9's horrendous art.
Yes, and everyone had tiny bodies with huge heads until the second game, and they all kept on growing until they snapped back like rubberbands in 9.
Well, if you don't want to disregard wonky art styles, then... Maybe MegaMan was trying on some alternate armor for a short time? Had to get his face re-smoothed once in a while? Anything's possible!
In case of Rock, you'd note that his Japanese name is Rockman, his American name is Megaman. You'd note that MM4 established his pre-MM name was Rock, but that this was changed in MM PU to be "Mega" (probably because they were being too literal). For me personally I'd use "Rock" as his dominany pre-MM name, even though it was overridden by "Mega". It's lasted a while while "Mega" was just in PU, so it hasn't shown it's staying power.
With this reasoning, which would you say has greater precedence, "Bolts" or "Screws"?
And those manuals influenced a lot of other media, for years afterwards.
"Thanks to you, my former partner has transformed Rock into a humanoid like yourself." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPHy2dTzPa8)
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Still. Because it has not been properly catagorised. So people find this information, which you can't eleminate because it exists, and they get steered wrong.
Regarding only the Japanese sources is fine .... if all we talk about is the Japanses game continuity. And if that's all you're interested in considering, that's fine. That's your area of interest.
However, it's an inferior way of calaoguing continuity. Because you are "throwing away" information. You're not accounting for it anywhere. And, depite it not counting towards Japanese game continuity it still exists. The information doesn't go away because you don't want to include it or because it's silly.
Actually, what I've done for all my timelines is make clear cut notes on what the US games say, such as the different dates in Cain's journal. I haven't thrown them away, I just don't view them as important enough to influence the timeline of events; the order is determined by what is factually known in the original story, the localization changes are listed for some one else to work in if they ever so please.
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Doujins aren't canon in any way. You or I could make them, if we wanted to, so .... no. If you wish to make a list include every fan fiction ever made by anyone.
I only threw it in because they're commercial.
Novas Adventuras de Megaman. Crappy, but licenced.
Didn't forget it. :)
I'd love to see a section detailing the boxart, as well, and that story. By the way, would magazine covers like SWATPro's be eligible for inclusion in a an article like that? They do change up Megaman like the boxart did (at least, the earlier ones did).
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the centuries of Maverick Wars before Eurasia
Actually, the Reploid War mentioned is the fight against Repliforce. Which makes it all the weirder.
however there is one exception to the rule if you account for terminology changes. It is exceedingly rare, although possible, for a change in terms to impact story events. This happened in Legends 2. Instead of Barrel enjoying a pun-name for his mysterious baby, we're left to ponder what powers of persuasion Roll had at less than one year of age.
In the MegaMan universe, Mega is a perfectly fine pun on Roll! >.>
If you follow Zan's logic you might wanna seperate out the MM1 manual from itself, or group it box stories. I don't, but I leave it to you.
I think games, manuals, sourcebooks and such should not be separated.
Hence, the MM1 manual goes wherever the things I previously listed go. That is; the list of things that slipped in during the localization process, whether it be included in the manuals or games. So, the Wily is assistant notion goes in the same term as "Die Wily!" and such. Said term being either "US canon", "localization oddities," etc.
Is the Radio drama part of Japanese game continuity proper? If not, it goes on the list.
Not sure if that one is Capcom produced , but even if it was, I think its timeline placement is too unclear to count immediately. Being after R6 but disregarding R7 elements.
Anyway, there are certainly a few stories that are of peculiar "semi-canon" status in regard to the games. MegaMission1 for instance is accepted by R20 and had Inafune's design involvement. However, its sequels MegaMission2 and 3 are outright invalidated by X5 and had no such acceptance from Capcom. (Other than say, Capcom artists drawing the art for the model kits.)
Likewise, Challenger from the Future is also mentioned in R20 (using Sprites Inc's rips no less!), but has a distinctly contradictory date of 200X for a 20XX game.
hope I didn't miss anything.
Taking a closer look at your listing...
Under MegaManX:
-MegaMission1 to MegaMission3
-Ariga's MegaMission manga.
And under classic, Ariga's Rockman MegaMix and Ariga's Rockman Remix are two distinctly different canons.
Also, you might want to account for both EXE and ZERO's appearence in Onimusha Blade Warriors.
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(using Sprites Inc's rips no less!)
that is still pretty funny. they just took the art and didnt even bother to clean it and separate it from its source.
kinda like they did with Okami, ripping the art off of IGN. now THAT was hilarious.
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@Zan: I know Megamix and Remix are different, hence "Ariga's mangas". I didn't feel like listing them all, honestly. Thanks for pointing out what I missed.
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I only threw it in because they're commercial.
Didn't forget it. :)
I'd love to see a section detailing the boxart, as well, and that story. By the way, would magazine covers like SWATPro's be eligible for inclusion in a an article like that? They do change up Megaman like the boxart did (at least, the earlier ones did).
I'd incluide anything SWAT Pro said, sure. But it wouldn't really count towards the official story for that continuity, it's be it's own thing.
Actually, getting back to the box thing, Monsteropolis was continued at LEAST until MM5 .... or the European version of that at least. They seem to have stopped referencing the name, but they do make consistant references to "the city" throughout.
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http://brahmansgameroom.blogspot.com/2009/09/what-happened-todr-cain.html
http://brahmansgameroom.blogspot.com/2009/09/whatever-happened-todr-cain-part-ii.html
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The easiest answer is just saying he never died in IHX. I'm pretty sure I neither saw a corpse nor a grave, let alone the result of that missile.
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I was just hoping to fit IHX and X2 together somehow. I like the original story for the series, and I wouldn't like a small change or a retcon to ruin it. ; o ; </wii>
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It's pretty easy to think Cain just survived. Even if it looks like author intent might have been for him to die there, since there was no MHX2 it's easy to think of him escaping.
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Cain's appearance changed drastically after that too. He went from being on massive life support to just hobbling. Even survived a maverick attack in X2. Maybe he did die but made a Reploid copy of himself beforehand which is the Cain we see in game.
Monsteropolis. I assumed it was retconned into Neo-Tokyo. Or maybe they just moved.
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He was never on life support. the only time we saw him with that machine was while he was eating. It is more likely a machine that helps him digest his food. be it a futuristic dialysis machine, or maybe just a machine that helps his stomach itself.
R20 has artwork of him standing around just dandy, with only those 4 circles on his back where the machine connects.
Plus, Wily has survived tons of [parasitic bomb] in his day. Cain can definitely do so as well. well, except plot holes. he cant escape those. He fell into one in X4 after all. Poor guy. must be starving down there.
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You know it's futuristic because it's so large. In the future machines only get larger. Why take digestive enzymes in pill form when you can attach huge cables to your back? >0<
Maybe he only needs that huge machine some of the time? Since there's no Maverick Hunter X 2 one can only assume so. Maybe it prolongs his life through some .... unkown futuristic means?
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The easiest answer is to just ignore MHX
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Nope, because IHX much more detailed shows what went on during X1.
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I guess if you ever plan on being serious business and pedantic about the storylines, sure. I just prefer ignoring it and enjoying the gameplay. It's so much easier.
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You deny the awesome that is Takahiro Sakurai/Mark Gatha and Ryôtarô Okiayu/Lucas Gilbertson?! D:
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I guess if you ever plan on being serious business and pedantic about the storylines, sure. I just prefer ignoring it and enjoying the gameplay. It's so much easier.
I gotta learn how to do this.
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I guess if you ever plan on being serious business and pedantic about the storylines, sure. I just prefer ignoring it and enjoying the gameplay. It's so much easier.
Then you should have always ignored the storyline. Whether it's X1 or MHX, both should be discarded.
That, or you learn how to actually enjoy a storyline and how it connects between separate entries to create a whole.
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You deny the awesome that is Takahiro Sakurai/Mark Gatha and Ryôtarô Okiayu/Lucas Gilbertson?! D:
I'm not saying I don't listen to them talk! I can enjoy as an isolated event within the confines of the singular game when I realise the whole plot spanning the series has become disjointed and convoluted.
I gotta learn how to do this.
It's how I got through FF7
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Wow, I sure missed a lot. Looks like I'm gonna make another TLDR post.
Sounds like we're still figuring out "Canon" vs "Continuity." The current vernacular of Rockman canon includes the question of story continuity with the question of canonicity. Like Wikipedia's definition, "Canon (fiction), material that is considered to be "genuine", "something that actually happened", or can be directly referenced as material produced by the original author or creator." Rockman game continuity is the original version, the genuine story by the original authors and creators, the basis on which the franchise was built and from which all other regionalizations and spin-off material is derived. Here canon and continuity are combined.
If we regard canon as "everything with a Capcom logo" then there is a great deal of un-connected continuitites included under the general phrase of being canon, making what is canon a separate definition and continuity a subset of that. Here what is official or officially licensed is canon, but that has no bearing about what continuity or universe a set of data exists in relation to. They could be all together lumped like the Mandi-verse, or divvied out individually.
Apparently we want to reconcile these. Are we going to try and establish some kind of canon ranking system like Star Wars does? I'll abide by whatever you guys want to, if we can get a consensus going.
There was certainly a time Capcom USA tried to keep Mega Man its own thing. I don't know enough about all European regions to state the same, but in the US it's pretty clear. Starting with the MM1 intro, they reworked the story. They've just never done so very consistently, making the notion of establishing a "continuity" exceedingly difficult.
If we're trying to identify a US continuity then we should include games, manuals, and boxes, and deal with each contradiction in turn on an individual case basis, rather than throw out all manuals or all boxes because of a few discrepancies. Capcom USA's web site should also be included. Perhaps to some extent, the ads Capcom puts out as well.
We also need to address the nature of Capcom/developer comments, as in "do they only apply to Japanese game continuity since the designers are Japanese, or if the medium of the interview is in English and they talk of Mega Man, doesn't that make it US canon?" Most of the time the developers aren't making it clear that they're talking about only a certain regional continuity, or even that they consider the two to be wholly separate. It might be easier to categorize when it's a US publication's interview, but then some interviews are simply translated, like in Mega Man Zero Official Complete Works which were not initially about "Mega Man" but the names were region swapped to fit, at times misleadingly. And where the book retcons what's shown in the games, like the Big 4's death, which takes priority?
There's also the US "Official Guides" to consider, they deal directly with the game continuity but also make their own additions. A step below that would be gaming magazines and articles, things they say about it that may or may not have been information from Capcom.
On that subject, the most asupicious guidebook in my opinion is "The Official Guide to Mega Man" from 1991, produced in direct coordination with Capcom USA at the time. This book "goes much further than simply offering the tips and tricks necessary to complete each game. It purposefully attempts to fill in the missing details about Mega Man, Dr. Wright and Dr. Wily, and the wars in the mining colonies." When USA had a deliberately original canon story, this was it. It wasn't 100% faithful to the MM1 manual, but kept Mega Man being "defender of the universe" and fighting in "Monsteropolis" and the association of "Dr. Wright, and his assistant Dr. Wily." Poor Roll is again omitted.
Yet this undertaking to establish Cap USA's own Mega Man story was undermined shortly after it began when Mega Man 4's intro denied many of the origin circumstances the book asserted. It was an Official book telling the Official story of the games... It just didn't stick. Many of its notions are recognized as quite contrary now (most games take place outside of Earth, Mega Man can't speak, Mega Man has "the emotional presence and maturity of an adult male" etc). We could say they have since been retconned out of continuity, or we could try to be fairer and salvage it on a line by line basis, "What exactly has been contradicted? What exactly has not?"
We can try to evaluate all the variables... Yet it might be easier to just go post a thread on Capcom Unity and ask what they want us to consider Mega Man US canon, since that is essentially going to the source of said canon. Depending on what kind of reply we get, go from there.
The US stories, such as they are, don't offer up many bothersome contradictions.
They offer enough that we wound up here in the first place. You wouldn't be so eager to toss out the packaging info if they didn't.
In the past, US Mega Man games and materials have often been devalued from canon as the result of fans wanting to understand the story at a greater level. Somewhere between awkward translations and inconsistent regionalizations, from the beginning to the present day, fan sites have picked up on that US continuity was a mismatched mess and tried to figure out what was "real story" was by looking at the original version. In other words, it became like this for a reason. For the sake of in-depth discussion on plot and continuity, it's something only possible with the Rockman version, or by combining Rockman with Mega Man.
With US canon as strictly its own animal, some simple questions which would otherwise have answers thanks to Japanese sources become unanswerable again. Who is that character shown in the MM7 password screen when you entered the data wrong? In strict US continuity, it is a character with no official name and no clear understanding. In Japanese continuity, we can say it's Wily's pet bird Reggae who first appeared in the game Rockboard. What is Iris using when she transforms and fights Zero in X4? Japanese canon says she's combining with her brother's CPU to fulfill the Ultimate Soldier project of Repliforce. US canon knows nothing about that project, and can't answer what it was. We're left to speculate something about evil energy powered ride armors. This kind of thing should change as more materials are brought over by Udon like the MM and MMX OCWs. Provided we count them as US canon when they're released.
Even within themselves, the US games sometimes fall short on clarity. Like Protoman's beginning in Powered Up that was previously discussed. Comparing to the Japanese version allows us to understand what was meant. Instead of "Who are you?" Wily's Japanese line is "Ki- kisama wa?" basically means "Y-You?" (a very derogatory version of "you" at that.) It can hold connotations of anything from "Who are you?" "What's your name?" "What are you doing here?" "What do you want?" "What are you trying to say?" "What about you?" and so on and so on. You can say it to someone you've just met (who has greatly irritated you somehow) or to someone you've known for years and want to verbally disrespect. The stuttering is a sign of surprise and recognition, as is the immediate jump to anger and insults, and the continued exposition that Wily knows Blues is a robot who doesn't follow orders. Thus "Who are you?" is an inappropriate translation, unless taken facetiously.
Mega Man X4's flashback scene might be one of the worst, starting off with Sigma telling a story and ending with Sigma being surprised and Zero acting as though he knew all along, or rather as if he was the one doing the telling, despite that it follows Sigma's perspective. It's an error that could totally change one's understanding of the scene. Translation can make a huge difference.
But it isn't always clear what's a translation error and what's an intentional swap. Typos are usually easy to identify, and name irregularities. But did they mean to alter continuity by saying Sigma's partner was X's former comrade in X5? Were we supposed to think that X must be Mega Man (because Light and Wily were former partners, building US canon on US canon) or that Dr. Cain was actually evil (X4 US manual says Cain made Double, after all!) ...Who knows.
I can think of a few major changes to Mega Man continuity from the Japanese version that have stuck around in some persistent form in US canon, licensed spin-offs and fanon. Things that generally go beyond a single mistranslated line or altered source. Wily and Light as partners before MM1 is one of them. Everybody here's familiar with that.
That Mega Man knows Protoman is his brother is another. MM7 is the strongest support of the case. Even when regionalizing the Upon A Star OVA, they changed the script so that Protoman calls Mega Man "brother." It is seemingly the impression they were trying to give is that they are familiar with each other and their relationship. It hasn't been entirely consistent though, and can cause some theoretical problems. Like where Protoman lies to Duo about his relationship with Mega Man in their combined Power Fighters ending. It lends the question of, why? Maybe he misunderstood the question as Duo saying that their personalities are completely alike when they are not, or maybe he just doesn't trust giant Mary Sue aliens (but then why ask him to come back sometime?)
Then there's the infamous ending to Mega Man 7. Clearly not a mistranslation of Japanese, since the lines in question were pretty much all added and didn't exist in the original. Some hate it, some love it, but for fans of the change it winds up being a source of frustration when later games don't feature Mega Man acting like such a badass, wondering what happened to his resolve.
And then, there's the Mega Buster. In Japan, the Rockbuster uses solar energy condensed into a solar bullet. In the US, the arm cannon has been said to be running off plasma energy since at least 1990's Mega Man Dr. Wily's Revenge. Some people think the Mega Buster didn't exist until Mega Man 4 because of the intro, mistaking "the New Mega Buster!" for "the new Mega Buster!" Contradicting that, recent games like Mega Man Collection and Powered Up have showed that the Mega Buster has been Mega Man's weapon since his battle conversion. Likewise, plasma power comes into slight question when we get to the X series and X gets the Plasma Shot, leaving some wondering how if X's weapon has always been plasma based, what makes the Plasma Shot is so different?
Those are some things I would conclude as being inherently "US canon" if we're not going to call it "those weird little things that got changed from the actual canon" anymore.
Anyway, there are certainly a few stories that are of peculiar "semi-canon" status in regard to the games. MegaMission1 for instance is accepted by R20 and had Inafune's design involvement.
I guess the new phrase would be "canon, but outside of continuity." R20 still calls it a Carddas Original Story, just as the sequels are called in other books.
Like Heatman's being hotter than two suns.
At 12000 degrees celsius, Heatman can burn at temperatures hotter than the surface of the sun. The surface is also the coolest part of any star. The layers of the core, and even the corona, burn at temperatures hundreds of times greater than Heatman. Heatman can supposedly get ridiculously hot. But he is not "hotter than two suns" unless you want to be way more specific about what part of the sun you're talking about.
They took a page from the manga, and had them repaired and their programming restored.
As it turns out, the idea that the robots would be restored to goodness was part of the first Rockman story, long before Ariga's or Ikehara's mangas came about. Having to collect those chips from the 6 RM1 bosses dropped wasn't just to gain weapons but to recover the hearts and minds of the robots themselves. We never did see that plot element come to full fruition in-game until later on though.
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Well said, sir. :)
Do you own "The Official Guide to Megaman", or was the info you provided just word-of-mouth? It sounds very interesting.
As it turns out, the idea that the robots would be restored to goodness was part of the first Rockman story, long before Ariga's or Ikehara's mangas came about. Having to collect those chips from the 6 RM1 bosses dropped wasn't just to gain weapons but to recover the hearts and minds of the robots themselves. We never did see that plot element come to full fruition in-game until later on though.
The hell? I never heard that, anywhere. :/
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As it turns out, the idea that the robots would be restored to goodness was part of the first Rockman story, long before Ariga's or Ikehara's mangas came about. Having to collect those chips from the 6 RM1 bosses dropped wasn't just to gain weapons but to recover the hearts and minds of the robots themselves. We never did see that plot element come to full fruition in-game until later on though.
I dont think many folks knew that though. they figured thats how Megaman got the weapon. And certain appearances elp to blur that, as with Cutman in Megaman 8, and Gutsman in 7. (which, have we ever established whether it is Gutsman or a copy?)
PU was just the first one to actually show the idea in game though.
also, another note on when you mentioned guides, the Command mission guide- is of questionable canonity as well, as it's intro tells of story events but then kind oif has its own story, telling of the events in the firm of a message from Alia to Signas, saying that the Eastern Maverick hunters, (AKA Redips,) is requesting backup from them.
Ill put up the scans later.
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While not debating it anymore, I'm still more in favor of calling it "US canon" out of sheer usefulness than anything else. Not only has many things been changed (as has been pointed out), but it gives a very consice answer to lenthy debates as to why something does or does not count. It counts, just for the US stuff only. Or it doesn't count of the discussion at hand, because the discussion is on the Japanese continuity. This topic isn't the first time I've seen people question why the Japanese stuff gets more respect and I doubt it'll be the last. Putting all the stuff that belongs in the US continuity actually IN something we can call "US continuity" saves some headaches.
I don't see why reason why it can't be as full of contradictions and misunderstandings as the games themselves. But that's just me. There's already different continuities, so .... this is just one more.
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Do you own "The Official Guide to Megaman", or was the info you provided just word-of-mouth?
I do own it. Got it off ebay a while back, for about the price on the book's back after shipping and handling. That's also how I got the Mega Man 2 Worlds of Power book. It might have even been from the same seller, who might have been a fan in his/her youth. Or maybe they just had a huge retro juvenile book stockpile. You can get it on Amazon from used booksellers too.
http://www.amazon.com/Official-Guide-Mega-Man/dp/0874552419/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256136246&sr=8-1
The Official Guide to Mega Man by Steven A. Schwartz, ISBN 0-87455-241-9 published from COMPUTE Books in 1991.
It recants the "history" of Dr. Xavier Wright and his assistant Dr. Jerome Wily, who created 6 powerful androids together for use in the space mining colonies, until Wily turned betrayed the government and reprogrammed them. Now a seventh robot, meant to be the overseer of them all, has been converted (the book says by Wily in one instance, but I think that's a typo since every other part says Wright) into a battle robot to stop the rampaging. The story is told in the form of reports and communiques between Galactic Council officials and scientists (who share names with then-members of Capcom USA and the author himself) called "reproductions of top-secret government documents" from between the years 2035 and 2055 (the suggested timeframe of MM1-3 and DWR). The Mega Man games themselves are referred to as historical simulations that allow people to learn about and interact with history. It's clever in a cheezy 80s way.
also, another note on when you mentioned guides, the Command mission guide- is of questionable canonity as well, as it's intro tells of story events but then kind oif has its own story, telling of the events in the firm of a message from Alia to Signas, saying that the Eastern Maverick hunters, (AKA Redips,) is requesting backup from them.
M Sipher himself is from the same vein of creative storytelling as the OGtMM author. It's cool he goes through the extra effort, even if he isn't always 100% accurate with it. In this case, the Japanese CM Official Complete Guide does mention Signas, Alia and Douglas, so they're probably still around, just not relevant to the story at hand, not unlike how the US guide portrays them.
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The Official Guide to Mega Man
You know, we really need to properly compile all of this information somewhere. So THAT is where Light's first name of "Xavier" comes from.
between the years 2035 and 2055
200X >.>
But if that's "history", at which time are they recollecting all of this? You could consider any mistakes made as historical inaccuracies.
The overall idea here reminds me of how the Dune universe has both the original books, and the newer books to form its canon. When some of the original books were still being written, another author developed an encyclopedia with help from the books' actual author. This book presented itself as a historical recollection of events, so it shrugged off inconsistencies by considering them historical inaccuracies. Over time, the original author occasionally used ideas from the encyclopedia to write his books. But when the author of the originals died and his son took up the mantle, all the newer stories made no efforts to take ideas from the encyclopedia and clearly decided to contradict it.
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200X, 20XX, same thing.
Jerome
Dr. Wily is The Nutty Professor!!!
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Thanks for the info. :)
The story is told in the form of reports and communiques between Galactic Council officials and scientists
Consequences of the otherworldly MM3/Wily's Revenge boxart?
The Mega Man games themselves are referred to as historical simulations that allow people to learn about and interact with history. It's clever in a cheezy 80s way.
I'd love to see them try to explain the games with multiple endings.
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Alternate history fanfics!
But they would probably have disclaimers in the "real" MegaMan world.
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Interesting book. I wonder what sorta takes it has on MM. And who it's endorsed by ... the Worlds of Power book was endorsed by Nintendo, not Capcom.
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I had a face-slap moment when I learned that the Worlds of Power books were written under the pseudonym "F. X. Nine" so that they would be placed next to books by "Nintendo" alphabetically.
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So THAT is where Light's first name of "Xavier" comes from.
Who's Light? We're talking about Dr. Wright here... >0< I think Mandi Paugh is responsible for that on the net far more than this obscure book. I'm not sure she had the book herself because she doesn't seem to include many elements from it in her fanfics, but maybe one of the MMHP community did and shared some info with her. I imagine that's why she thought she was right to use it as Light's middle name. Dunno.
But if that's "history", at which time are they recollecting all of this? You could consider any mistakes made as historical inaccuracies.
The forward is from December 2055, that's the point where the information has been collected. The first war took place in 2035, the second in 2038, the third in 2043, and Wily's Revenge in 2052. The stories are supposed to be reproductions of top secret documents, so I guess one cold argue that the reproductions were inaccurate or that the initial authors at the time didn't have all the facts straight in the memos, although 90% of it would have to be inaccurate to fit with some other stuff.
The overall idea here reminds me of how the Dune universe has both the original books, and the newer books to form its canon.
G-money Lucas has a similar relationship with his Star Wars expanded universe. Even Baum's Oz books have similar problems, come to think of it. It may be an inevitable symptom of any franchise that lives too long.
I'd love to see them try to explain the games with multiple endings.
The book doesn't discuss game endings, just the aftermath, so maybe they'd just do like they did with Roll and ignore everything.
Maybe they'd occasionally throw in a hint or two as to what "really happened. That's what Capcom's been doing anyway.
Insert Quote
Alternate history fanfics!
But they would probably have disclaimers in the "real" MegaMan world.
Or that. After all, you're already choosing your own boss order, so you're not going to go through the simulation the exact way the historical Mega Man did.
I wonder what sorta takes it has on MM.
Mega Man was a speechless emotionless robot who runs on pure logic, sees in infrared scope, has a detachable plasma cannon on his right arm "end effector" (but not his left). After the wars ended he was given a personality chip to give him "the emotional presence and maturity of an adult male." He still can't talk though. He absorbs energy through his breathable titanium alloy skin, but also drinks WD-40 coolers.
And who it's endorsed by ...
Mentioned this already, but Capcom did.
"The only guide that has been officially authorized by its manufacturer, Capcom U.S.A." - front cover.
"I would like to thank Kathleen Watson and Gracie Howell of CAPCOM U.S.A. for coordinating the project..." - Acknowledgements
It also includes a game ad and a $10 rebate off the purchase of Capcom games, like they used to put in some of their instruction manuals. It's a trip.
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Who's Light?
Thomas Xavier Light, alias Dr. Wright. That guy mentioned in the manual of the first historical simulation. His assistant is Albert W. Wily.
The W. stands for Jerome.
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His assistant is Albert W. Wily.
The W. stands for Jerome.
You made my day. XD
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8D
That guy mentioned in the manual of the first historical simulation.
Joke derailment! "Wright" was used in the first US manual, "Light" in the second and third. I tried to get MMN to correct their manual transcript a while back, but I see they haven't. They even have an instance of Dr. "Write" on there, which I don't believe was ever used for him in any official capacity. Reminds me of Link's Awakening tho.
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Link has many Adventures.
The W. stands for Jerome.
No, it stands for Wumbo, which is what you get when you turn his shrink ray upside-down.
Mega Man was a speechless emotionless robot who runs on pure logic, sees in infrared scope, has a detachable plasma cannon on his right arm "end effector" (but not his left). After the wars ended he was given a personality chip to give him "the emotional presence and maturity of an adult male." He still can't talk though.
Well, he may not have much personality when you're playing as him, right? So maybe he kept taking the personality chip in and out between games because everyone thought the wars were over each time. And maybe he never talked, but literally held up large black signs with white text printed on them, or just your typical word balloons in 7. Yeah, we can rationalize all this!
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People bash the cartoon for what it "did to" Mega, but at least Ruby-Spears didn't take him literally. Yeesh. I have to wonder why they wouldn't let the poor jailbait robot talk after upgrading him (aside from the fact that he didn't have any lines in MM1-3 and GB1).
I haven't got my hopes up since Roll got the shaft, but that book covers MM3, so what of Protoman?
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In the briefings, Protoman is briefly referenced as a peacekeeping robot developed at the Institute for Artificial Intelligence (where Dr. Wright works), seemingly built after the second Great Mining War, to perform roughly the same duties as Mega Man. He disappeared with the other super robots of MM3, but the Ministry of Interplanetary Defense was unable to determine whether he was fighting for Wily or against him. The rest of the book then calls him Break Man and treats him like a stage enemy. It doesn't cover the endings, so it doesn't explain what happened to him or who he was fighting for. Interestingly, the picture the book uses for him is one that appears in R20 on page 207, the Blues sketch with the normal helmet on and the handle grip sticking out of his buster.
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built after the second Great Mining War
I'm curious about this. What are the Great Mining Wars?
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The first was the events of Mega Man 1, the second was Mega Man 2, and the third Mega Man 3.
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Ohhh. Those are what they refer too? Interesting indeed. Thanx, Stay Puff!
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Thanks. :) Man, not even the "official guide" had much to say about Proto; no wonder he's portrayed in so many different ways.
Incidentally, Mom ordered TOTMM for me a few minutes ago (it was cheap), so perhaps I can post some scans soon. (Not the one we ordered, but someone wanted over eighty goddamned bucks for their copy. Holy fuckballs.)
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Thanks. :) Man, not even the "official guide" had much to say about Proto; no wonder he's portrayed in so many different ways.
Incidentally, Mom ordered TOTMM for me a few minutes ago (it was cheap), so perhaps I can post some scans soon. (Not the one we ordered, but someone wanted over eighty goddamned bucks for their copy. Holy fuckballs.)
I got a copy as well. I'm excited since this will be a real blast from the past. They don't make guides like this anymore!
I think we must have gotten the cheaper ones because the cheapest one now is $27. That seems pricey enough, but $80 is totally absurd. Exactly how valuble do they think this book is?
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I think they priced it that high since it's an old and rare (or at least uncommon) book--that, or it's in perfect condition. (Mine has some wear and tear, according to the description)
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Yeah, probbly, but ... whoever did that has no brains whatsoever. Old game guides really aren't worth that much. Old GAMES on the other hand, I can see.
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They don't make guides like this anymore!
Especially using that kind of paper. Hope you guys enjoy it. Maybe we can hold a book discussion or something.
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I hope so too (and that Mom doesn't decide that I have to wait until Christmas for it).
As long as we're waiting, I misewell share this with you: http://www.ummagurau.com/writing/video/forte/index.htm It was compiled before MMnB was released in English; this page is rather special to me, as it was one of the first Megaman-related pages I ever visited, and where I learned about the Megaman Killers/Hunters, Stardroids, Tango, and the Genesis Corp. Problem was, this fellow wasn't well-versed in Megaman, so I was still largely in the dark after coming away from it. (I also wondered, "Since when did anyone call Protoman 'Darkman'?" Heh...)
Anyone else remember the first MM site they ever visited? (Mine'd technically be the Megaman HQ, but it was in shambles even in middle school...)
Posted on: October 26, 2009, 12:18:55 AM
So, a while ago I asked Mr. Ariga about the game canon and his manga (how they fit together, specifically). He responded:
海外の方からのカキコ(Question)があったんですが↓
**************************************************
RADIX Said: @1:16 AM
Hi; I'm sorry I can only speak English, but I'm afraid that I can't translate this properly. (Also, Gigamix looks like a good read from what I've seen of it)
There is a matter I'd like to have resolved. One fellow thinks that Megamix/Gigamix should be included in debates about Rockman's canon, because you know a good deal about it, and thus whatever's in the manga has canological value (as I put it). However, I think that it's a flawed idea, because we still can't be sure about how much is canon and how much is your idea.
I'm wondering; how much of Breakman in Gigamix is true to the games, and how much is your idea? I'd appreciate it if you could answer that, so that argument could hopefully be put to rest. ^^
**************************************************
↑の返事(Answer)↓です。
Hello and thank you for your message! I'm sorry it took me so long to respond.
It's very exciting for me to receive a comment from someone overseas.
However, I must admit that I am not able to communicate in English.
I wanted to make an exception this time, as it was the first English comment I received, so I asked someone to translate your message for me and this response to you. Please understand that I will not be able to reply to any further English messages, though I do deeply appreciate your support.
Regarding your question about the position of Megamix and Gigamix in relation to official canon, I think the best way for me to describe it would be as "a spin-off that has been approved by the rights holders."
I should make it clear that my stories are not to be considered official canon.
Similar to how there are many fictional novels based on the Star Wars world, Megamix and Gigamix should be considered from that same angle.
That's basically what I had in mind when writing the original "Mega Man Remix."
I took Capcom's official canon/information and arranged/mixed it up for Remix, Megamix, and Gigamix.
To be more specific, the Breakman in Gigamix is portrayed the way I personally interpreted his character when playing the game.
Therefore, my Breakman from Gigamix should not be considered official in any way.
Of course, he is one of the official characters on the most basic level, as that is who he is based on, but the Breakman in Gigamix is one to which Capcom said, "This Breakman will be fine as a Gigamix Breakman."
In summary, I think the clearest way to explain it for you and your friend would be to say that I hope you will continue to enjoy both the game and my manga, but as two separate entities.
I hope that answers your question, and again I would like to thank you for your support.
Of course, by now that argument's over, but I'm just glad that he took some time to answer my question. 8)
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I just came from checking in at Ariga's site and thought, "Wow, ain't Radix special." You're the first one he's ever replied to in English and by the sounds of it, you might be the last as well. AND you got a pretty Break/Blues pic to boot! *o* Congrats on getting him to reply to your question.
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That's pretty awesome that he responded.
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That is pretty cool he responded in English. The last time I can remember him doing that was on his old old blog, when he had to ask English speakers not to steal his artwork for their own sites.
Doesn't sound like he had much to say about game version Breakman. Doesn't bode well for my hope that there's a special talk section discussing it in Gigamix. Hey Miyabi, you have the book, right? Is there a discussion section in it?
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Yep I do, but not...really...
The first four pages are a short section entitled "The Story of Rockman Megamix." There's a mugshot of every one of the Dr. "__" Numbers, which of course covers 1-6, and 7 short paragraphs which no doubt are just a summary of Megamix.
At the end of the book, there is one page with a special Wily/Reggae pic and what I assume is a letter from Ariga. I can see R20 in the text, but that's all I can pull out of it. And then after that, 2 more pages with short comics starring Ariga as he worked on the book. In the first one he seems to be discussing Battle and Chase, perhaps all the made up robots he included in there. They're shown at least. The second one does have a pic of Blues, not Break.
That's all there is for extra content. No special lengthy discussion, nor are there any character sheets like there were in Megamix. Around 210 pages of manga and just those few extra pages surrounding it.
It's a little late for me right now, so I can't take the time to scan them, but if you want to translate, I can get that done tomorrow for ya.
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Actually, he responded to a few people in english during the 'ol Capcom Crisis of 2000, when Koshinda (his publishjer) found out all of us US fans were using images he posted at his site for our own sites. Some people (one person really) actually went over there and were pretty rude. I apologised for us US fans.
But I doubt he gets much english main tho.
Of course, after that crisis, he took down all those images.
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To be more specific, the Breakman in Gigamix is portrayed the way I personally interpreted his character when playing the game.
I actually like this answer a lot. In many ways it shows how much about Breakman is unclear from the game itself and up to our imagination. It's definitely "food for thought". A depiction of "his interpretation" in comic format certainly is quite an effective way to bring his own ideas to the fans, and could shape our own interpretations of what we actually saw in the games.
There's a mugshot of every one of the Dr. "__" Numbers
I'm presuming this does not include TimeMan and OilMan? I would have liked to have seen them in serious roles. But I guess they'll never truly be part of that group.
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They were added in for no other reason than to complete the circle of 8, the way I see it.
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Even if that might be the case at the most basic level. Remember that it was also quite an extensive addition. There were originally no ideas for new bosses until Inafune went and designed them himself, creating new bosses weapons and a weakness order to go with it. Only with all that already done for them by the "father of Rockman", did they go ahead and implement them.
Overall, their inclusion meant that Rockman Rockman had two additional bosses and two additional stages, stage enemies, two music tracks, two boss weapons and a weakness cycle to go with it. It also meant two more playable characters were added. Overall, TimeMan and OilMan contributed to a considerable amount of new content that was added to the game.
I feel that after the release of Rockman Rockman, it would only be fitting to start including these two as part of the group, both in the games and in additional material. If not in Gigamix's new stories, R9's Megamix also could have had a role for them, what with the shown conflict of old and new Right Numbers. Especially since Ariga has already drawn up designs for them... (TimeMan's is quite cool, OilMan not so much.)
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I'm presuming this does not include TimeMan and OilMan?
You presume correctly. They were never part of any Megamix chapters, even though Ariga had drawn them before. Same as how he had drawn some of the RM7 RMs in art posted on his site before, but they never had any official manga time until Gigamix. Who knows, there's still a chance he might include them in these future Gigamix volumes.
Here's all the pre- and post-manga extras, then. Go ahead and peruse/translate what you'd like, marsh:
(http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/765/gigamixsample23.th.jpg) (http://img526.imageshack.us/i/gigamixsample23.jpg/) (http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/1172/gigamixsample24.th.jpg) (http://img526.imageshack.us/i/gigamixsample24.jpg/) (http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/9785/gigamixsample21.th.jpg) (http://img94.imageshack.us/i/gigamixsample21.jpg/) (http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/6550/gigamixsample22.th.jpg) (http://img94.imageshack.us/i/gigamixsample22.jpg/)
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Even if that might be the case at the most basic level. Remember that it was also quite an extensive addition. There were originally no ideas for new bosses until Inafune went and designed them himself, creating new bosses weapons and a weakness order to go with it. Only with all that already done for them by the "father of Rockman", did they go ahead and implement them.
Overall, their inclusion meant that Rockman Rockman had two additional bosses and two additional stages, stage enemies, two music tracks, two boss weapons and a weakness cycle to go with it. It also meant two more playable characters were added. Overall, TimeMan and OilMan contributed to a considerable amount of new content that was added to the game.
I feel that after the release of Rockman Rockman, it would only be fitting to start including these two as part of the group, both in the games and in additional material. If not in Gigamix's new stories, R9's Megamix also could have had a role for them, what with the shown conflict of old and new Right Numbers. Especially since Ariga has already drawn up designs for them... (TimeMan's is quite cool, OilMan not so much.)
wasnt there a "classic mode" without them? (I dont know.. never played the game)
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Yeah, I haven't been able to find many videos of classic mode, but as I understand it, it zooms out the playing field to use the exact same layouts as the original game, but it uses the same character models and physics as the new style, so enemies and bullets don't pass through walls and stuff.
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Yeah, Time Man and Oil Man aren't in classic mode, meaning the weakness rotation goes back to the way it was.
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Here's all the pre- and post-manga extras, then. Go ahead and peruse/translate what you'd like, marsh:
You spoil me, Miyabi. Thanks for these beautiful scans!
You're right about the Megamix pages, they're just teaser story synopses about the older chapters.
The letter is from Ryuuji Higurashi, and talks briefly about his childhood memories of Bombom comics and how he was happy to be working with Ariga for the first time during R20's production and how they had fun and future generations should enjoy Rockman and yadda yadda. The Wily picture is from him, summarized as a "what would an Ariga style Wily look like if drawn by Capcom artists?" pic. Pretty cool. He ends with a B&C anecdote about how he got his arse handed to him in Rockboard one time, and so took revenge in Battle & Chase by tearing it up with the Pop'n Beat. I know what he means, that's probably my fave car body, and the only one I can consistently beat Wily with on Level 4.
I have trouble reading Ariga's handwriting, but basically the "Atogaki (Afterward) Gigamix" comic tells the story about how he had been trying to get these two stories published nearly a decade ago but for various reasons was unsuccessful until now.
Nothing much about Breakman or game story here. Oh well.
Koshinda (his publishjer)
Do you mean Kodansha?
Who knows, there's still a chance he might include them in these future Gigamix volumes.
I'm kinda hoping so too.
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Do you mean Kodansha?
Yeah, those guys, I guess. That's not a name I'll remember accurately for a long while, I think.
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My copy of TOGTMM arrived today, and it's just as interesting as I hoped it'd be. 8)
Megaman 1:
* Dr. Jerome Wily was apparently turned evil by a chemical explosion in his basement laboratory. (That, or it was the straw that broke the camel's back)
* Bombman's bombs are made out of "plastique". Plastic/plasticine?
* S. Smith, to General K. Watson, notes that Megaman is "superior" to humans in many aspects. Oh dear.
* Cutman is also known as "Clipper Head".
* "The Mega Man Project" is said to be quite promising.
* Megaman is said to have complete freedom of direction. Doesn't explain why he can't duck.
* Robot Masters are always referred to as "super robots", in MM1 and beyond. Another thing that carries over from the MM1 coverage is the maps; they look like they were drawn on a computer running ASCII (if it wasn't an OS, just bear with me).
* Their recommended order (and Capcom's) is Cut, Guts, Elec, Ice, Fire, and Bomb.
* Defeating the final boss is described as "destroy[ing] his spaceship and then Dr. Wily himself". So much for the Three Laws.
* Megaman's default weapon is called the "Plasma Cannon".
Megaman 2:
* Wily was banished from "his beloved Monsteropolis". Dr. Wright, after Wily grovelled a bit, sent him some robot parts out of sympathy. Derp derp, Dr. Wright, derp derp.
* The resulting robot apparently built from those parts and the remains of Wily's super robots. Its capabilities were "crude", but over time Wily refined it; during one winter, it constructed the MM2 RMs. (Could this be Protoman or Enker?)
* Wily returns to Monsteropolis and stations his castle in the middle of it.
* E-Tanks are "Energy Crystals".
* The Items are (in order) the Levitation Platform, the Jet Sled, and the Elevator.
* Metalman's weapon is the "Metal Gear". Heh heh.
* The Mechadragon scared the crap out of the author; Guts-Dozer is "one of the most amazing creatures you'll meet".
* Suggested order is Air, Metal, Bubble, Heat, Wood, Crash, Flash, and Quick. Sounds about right.
Megaman 3:
* Forgot to mention this, but pics from MM3 are used to preface all the chapters. In fact, apart from the enemy and boss thumbnails, MM3 is the only game whose illustrations the guide uses.
* Dr. Wily was sentenced to life imprisonment on the farm colony of Agri 4 after MM2. He underwent Neurotransmitter Therapy while there, which of course worked SO well.
* Resources such as oil and timber have fallen low, and Megaman's job is to destroy robots that hoard/steal them.
* Doc Robot vanishes from Dr. Wright's lab on 1/6/2043; it's presumed to be the leader of the MM3 RMs.
* Megaman's slide is described as a "Strider-style" move. Who knew that Megaman once trained under Strider Hiryu, eh?
* Rush was built so that Megaman could more easily traverse the various mining areas. The interview says that Rush's brain was modeled after that of a Malamute puppy (and that he caught a buried a mail truck once).
* Suggested order is Top, Shadow, Spark, Magnet, Hard, Gemini, Needle, and Snake.
* Breakman is training Megaman.
* The Yellow Devil MK. II is called the Cyclops (and it's the same as the one from MM1, apparently).
MMGB1:
* K. Watson is now the President of Earth. Buh? (Also, S. Schwartz seems to want to have Wily shot/lobotomized)
* The areas overtaken by the first set of RMs are a shopping center, an amusement park, "buildings", and a factory.
* Wily was once director of the Industrial Museum, and he had the foresight to build a base underneath it.
* Enker is simply "Mega Man Hunter" here. Poor bastard didn't even get a proper name.
* The stages aren't elaborated on; I guess they ran out of time, or the stages are similar enough to their NES counterparts that it doesn't matter (I haven't played MMGB1).
End of book interview:
* They got around Megaman's lack of vocal chords by hooking Megaman to a video terminal.
* When Dr. Wily stole the other MM1 RMs, Megaman was getting a tune-up and oil change. Lucky him. (He jokes about hiding in a broom closet instead)
* Megaman admits that Rush isn't as bright as he hoped.
* Megaman had the chance to see rough drafts of The Official Guide to Megaman.
* Mega asks readers to look out for future games. I guess that, at some point, they stopped being historical simulations.
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Mind if I mirror these notes on my site? I'm planning to make my own, but it's always nice to have a starting point.
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Ariga has already drawn up designs for them... (TimeMan's is quite cool, OilMan not so much.)
I've never seen those. Do you have them handy?
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Mind if I mirror these notes on my site? I'm planning to make my own, but it's always nice to have a starting point.
Not at all. :) Always glad to help.
I've never seen those. Do you have them handy?
http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/General-RADIX/ariga_Diary060920.jpg?t=1257016606 (http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/General-RADIX/ariga_Diary060920.jpg?t=1257016606)
http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/General-RADIX/ariga_Diary061125.jpg?t=1257016592 (http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/General-RADIX/ariga_Diary061125.jpg?t=1257016592)
Here ya go.
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* The stages aren't elaborated on; I guess they ran out of time, or the stages are similar enough to their NES counterparts that it doesn't matter
They're not really.
(I haven't played MMGB1).
Why the [tornado fang] not? The GB MM games are so awesome.
http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/General-RADIX/ariga_Diary060920.jpg?t=1257016606 (http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/General-RADIX/ariga_Diary060920.jpg?t=1257016606)
http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/General-RADIX/ariga_Diary061125.jpg?t=1257016592 (http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/General-RADIX/ariga_Diary061125.jpg?t=1257016592)
Here ya go.
Oh yea, I remember seeing Oil Man. I think it was before he'd colored it. He does look dumb. This is my first time seeing the Time Man picture, & I love it.
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Why the [tornado fang] not? The GB MM games are so awesome.
I just don't have a copy (and I doubt Gamestop does either).
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Just steal it on the Internet. If Capcom didn't want you to they'd've released the GBA MM Collection.
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My copy of TOGTMM arrived today, and it's just as interesting as I hoped it'd be. 8)
[spoiler]Megaman 1:
* Dr. Jerome Wily was apparently turned evil by a chemical explosion in his basement laboratory. (That, or it was the straw that broke the camel's back)
* Bombman's bombs are made out of "plastique". Plastic/plasticine?
* S. Smith, to General K. Watson, notes that Megaman is "superior" to humans in many aspects. Oh dear.
* Cutman is also known as "Clipper Head".
* "The Mega Man Project" is said to be quite promising.
* Megaman is said to have complete freedom of direction. Doesn't explain why he can't duck.
* Robot Masters are always referred to as "super robots", in MM1 and beyond. Another thing that carries over from the MM1 coverage is the maps; they look like they were drawn on a computer running ASCII (if it wasn't an OS, just bear with me).
* Their recommended order (and Capcom's) is Cut, Guts, Elec, Ice, Fire, and Bomb.
* Defeating the final boss is described as "destroy[ing] his spaceship and then Dr. Wily himself". So much for the Three Laws.
* Megaman's default weapon is called the "Plasma Cannon".
Megaman 2:
* Wily was banished from "his beloved Monsteropolis". Dr. Wright, after Wily grovelled a bit, sent him some robot parts out of sympathy. Derp derp, Dr. Wright, derp derp.
* The resulting robot apparently built from those parts and the remains of Wily's super robots. Its capabilities were "crude", but over time Wily refined it; during one winter, it constructed the MM2 RMs. (Could this be Protoman or Enker?)
* Wily returns to Monsteropolis and stations his castle in the middle of it.
* E-Tanks are "Energy Crystals".
* The Items are (in order) the Levitation Platform, the Jet Sled, and the Elevator.
* Metalman's weapon is the "Metal Gear". Heh heh.
* The Mechadragon scared the crap out of the author; Guts-Dozer is "one of the most amazing creatures you'll meet".
* Suggested order is Air, Metal, Bubble, Heat, Wood, Crash, Flash, and Quick. Sounds about right.
Megaman 3:
* Forgot to mention this, but pics from MM3 are used to preface all the chapters. In fact, apart from the enemy and boss thumbnails, MM3 is the only game whose illustrations the guide uses.
* Dr. Wily was sentenced to life imprisonment on the farm colony of Agri 4 after MM2. He underwent Neurotransmitter Therapy while there, which of course worked SO well.
* Resources such as oil and timber have fallen low, and Megaman's job is to destroy robots that hoard/steal them.
* Doc Robot vanishes from Dr. Wright's lab on 1/6/2043; it's presumed to be the leader of the MM3 RMs.
* Megaman's slide is described as a "Strider-style" move. Who knew that Megaman once trained under Strider Hiryu, eh?
* Rush was built so that Megaman could more easily traverse the various mining areas. The interview says that Rush's brain was modeled after that of a Malamute puppy (and that he caught a buried a mail truck once).
* Suggested order is Top, Shadow, Spark, Magnet, Hard, Gemini, Needle, and Snake.
* Breakman is training Megaman.
* The Yellow Devil MK. II is called the Cyclops (and it's the same as the one from MM1, apparently).
MMGB1:
* K. Watson is now the President of Earth. Buh? (Also, S. Schwartz seems to want to have Wily shot/lobotomized)
* The areas overtaken by the first set of RMs are a shopping center, an amusement park, "buildings", and a factory.
* Wily was once director of the Industrial Museum, and he had the foresight to build a base underneath it.
* Enker is simply "Mega Man Hunter" here. Poor bastard didn't even get a proper name.
* The stages aren't elaborated on; I guess they ran out of time, or the stages are similar enough to their NES counterparts that it doesn't matter (I haven't played MMGB1).
End of book interview:
* They got around Megaman's lack of vocal chords by hooking Megaman to a video terminal.
* When Dr. Wily stole the other MM1 RMs, Megaman was getting a tune-up and oil change. Lucky him. (He jokes about hiding in a broom closet instead)
* Megaman admits that Rush isn't as bright as he hoped.
* Megaman had the chance to see rough drafts of The Official Guide to Megaman.
* Mega asks readers to look out for future games. I guess that, at some point, they stopped being historical simulations.[/spoiler]
Oh wow... What is this... XD
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What exactly does TOGTMM stand for?
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What exactly does TOGTMM stand for?
The Official Guide to Megaman.
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What's that?
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That book that's been discussed on the last few pages of this topic?
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Finally got the Official Guide. So much of the old fanon is based off it. Mandi Paugh (of the MM HP) MUST have a copy ... there's a picture of Doc Robot that she seems to have based one of her own pics on.
I gotta say that I'm very happy to have a copy of this. I'm making pretty extencive notes in addition to what's already been posted, but I gotta say that it's nothing compared to reading it. You'd have to appreaciate a lot of the old gaming magazines to really appreaciate this book.
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Glad to hear that. :) Heh, as soon as I read that second blurb about Breakman, I knew exactly where that "Proto is training you" fanon came from.
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Actually, that was also in Nintendo Power. That bit of fanon was much more widespread.
What's interesting is that the MM3 minor enemies actually have pretty accurate translations, while the rest of the enemies clearly are based off the manuals. It makes me wonder exactly what kind of material these guys had to work with.
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I remember a few things from the NES Game Atlas (http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=8981141), there were some fanon names or names that wasn't the same as Japanese ones.
Enemies
Yellow Devil (http://www.rockmanpm.com/i/original/rockman1/database/27.png): The Rock Monster
Copy Robot (http://www.rockmanpm.com/i/original/rockman1/database/28.png): Mega Clone
CWU-01P (http://www.rockmanpm.com/i/original/rockman1/database/29.png): Bubble Boy
Anko (http://www.rockmanpm.com/i/original/rockman2/database/08.png): Lantern Fish
Goblin (http://www.rockmanpm.com/i/original/rockman2/database/13.png): Air Gremlins, Air Demons and Air Tikis.
Shrink (http://www.rockmanpm.com/i/original/rockman2/database/14.png): Super Shrimp
Pipi (http://www.rockmanpm.com/i/original/rockman2/database/26.png): Bomber Birds
Mecha Dragon (http://www.rockmanpm.com/i/original/rockman2/database/36.png): Dragon Droid
Junk Golem (http://www.rockmanpm.com/i/original/rockman3/database/17.png): Block Tosser
Tama (http://www.rockmanpm.com/i/original/rockman3/database/19.png): Bobcat
Pen Pen (http://www.rockmanpm.com/i/original/rockman3/database/34.png): Bomber Penguin
Pen Pen Maker (http://www.rockmanpm.com/i/original/rockman3/database/35.png): the Penguin Maker
Kamegoro Maker (http://www.rockmanpm.com/i/original/rockman3/database/50.png): Turtle Machine (Kame = Turtle)
Wily Machine 3 (http://www.rockmanpm.com/i/original/rockman3/database/54.png): Pinbot
Weapons and Items
Super Arm: Guts Power
Rolling Cutter: Cut Blade
Thunder Beam: Elec Beam
Ice Slasher: Ice Ray
Fire Storm: Flame Thrower
Hyper Bomb: the Bomber
Item 2: Jet Sled in English and Jet Slade in Swedish! >U<
It shows a picture of Pico Pico (http://www.rockmanpm.com/i/original/rockman2/database/37.png) in Wily Stage 2, where they say that Quick Man's death lasers are in that stage again, but that doesn't sound right. ^^;
"In their first classic fight, Mega Man took on Dr. Wily's six Robot Leaders and then endured a four-stage battle to Dr. Wily himself."
It doesn't say anything about stealing from Dr. Light. XD
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A few of those names were from the manuals.
Technically, the RMs from MM1 were Wily's Robot Leaders afer he stole them. I'd have to go over it again before saying it's incorrect or correct tho.
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I remember reading on Wikipedia that the term "Robot Masters" was an entirely American term; the originals used "Super Robots". Of course, now that "Robot Masters" is no longer its own article, that bit's gone.
Since Wikipedia also claimed that Stardroid Venus was female, I'm taking that with a grain of salt.
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The originals only use the term "boss robots", which is what they are.
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* Their recommended order (and Capcom's) is Cut, Guts, Elec, Ice, Fire, and Bomb.
...for what possible reason would one NOT switch Guts and Cut in that order?
* Suggested order is Air, Metal, Bubble, Heat, Wood, Crash, Flash, and Quick. Sounds about right.
Sounds nowhere NEAR right to me, but then MM2's weakness cycle is pretty wonky. Nevertheless, I do Air, Crash, Flash, Quick, Metal, Bubble, Heat, Wood.
* Suggested order is Top, Shadow, Spark, Magnet, Hard, Gemini, Needle, and Snake.
At least the weapon effects make sense this time. But IMHO anyone who tackles Gemini first out of the final three is out of their [tornado fang]ing mind. He's the toughest of the eight to buster-only. I start with Needle; assuming he doesn't land on top of you his attacks aren't too tricky, and his stage has a free E-Tank just in case.
I remember a few things from the NES Game Atlas (http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=8981141)
Oh man, THAT brings back memories. Rock Monster, the Quick Man beams that don't exist, fun stuff there. They also backed the whole Break Man training idea, too.
And they're also oblivious to Top Spin on Gamma, IIRC, claiming that only Search Snake works. Funny thing is my brother tipped me off about Top Spin before we ever got that book. Didn't know Search Snake worked before then.
For that matter, I don't think they cover weakness weapons on ANY of MM3's fortress bosses. I didn't even know about Search Snake on MM3's clones until last console generation. And all they tell you about Rock Monster/Yellow Devil is that you don't have Elec/Thunder Beam (and they referenced it in MM1 without referencing the pause trick).
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But IMHO anyone who tackles Gemini first (...) is out of their [tornado fang]ing mind.
; - ; (http://www.rockmanpm.com/i/flv/rockman3vc.html)
You could go for Snake, if you use Shadow Blade. Then you can go for Gemini and Needle in that order. ^^
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Well, that video was humiliating to watch. Hats off to ye, Vix.
I shouldn't talk anyway. I know Zan thinks I'm nuts for choosing Needle. And out of the remaining five I do Shadow first. Even though Top is the obvious intended, I just like saving him for last.
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Sounds nowhere NEAR right to me, but then MM2's weakness cycle is pretty wonky. Nevertheless, I do Air, Crash, Flash, Quick, Metal, Bubble, Heat, Wood.
It's been so long since I've played MM2 that I completely forgot. ^^;
My plans to scour Fortunecity for old MM sites that aren't "King Weasel Productions" failed when I realized that FC lacks a proper search function. I can try rooting through his "Links" page tomorrow, but for now, does anyone know of any?
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I know Zan thinks I'm nuts for choosing Needle.
No secret as to why you choose Needle first.
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I know Zan thinks I'm nuts for choosing Needle.
I beat Needle Man first, with the buster, so I could unlock Power Battle in MMAC~ :3 </wii>
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You're nuts for choosing ShadowMan OR NeedleMan first, Hypershell!
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I once started with Hard Man...the first time I´ve played MM3...I got PWND beyond believe
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I once started with Hard Man...the first time I´ve played MM3...I got PWND beyond believe
Well, what did you expect? He is called Hard Man, after all. >U<
Nonetheless, I usually play it "safe" by following the recommended weakness order, in MM games. Once I get better, I may blast RMs in a random order.
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Same here.
Well, that plan failed. >.> Not only did I forget that KWP doesn't seem to have a "Links" page, but Google didn't help much, either.
So, getting off that subject--I noticed a couple of recurring things about the "old days", like incredibly pimped-out fan Reploids and Roll fanboyism (not sure how widespread that was, or if my memory was tainted by NAdM). Anyone got anything else?
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I know Zan thinks I'm nuts for choosing Needle.
I much prefer beating up Snake first.
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I remember a theory from the website that is now called Planet Megaman, that Iris would return all grown up in X5 and take Sigma's side to try to get Zero change sides.
Then there was that theory that Zero was created evil, uploaded a new memory and would turn on X when the time was right, which was proposed by the same guy that thought that Bass's memory was put into Vile.
Lets not forget the theory that Axl and Red were the same person split into two beings back when people thought that Red had the same copy ability as Axl.
I once thought the Cartoon was canon
I also thought at one time that Megaman Juno created the Reverbots.
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I remember a theory from the website that is now called Planet Megaman, that Iris would return all grown up in X5 and take Sigma's side to try to get Zero change sides.
I thought she was grown up in X4. :/
While the one about Red and Axl is interesting, it'd just be a retread of Colonel and Iris, except offing one doesn't explode the other's brain.
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I thought she was grown up in X4. :/
While the one about Red and Axl is interesting, it'd just be a retread of Colonel and Iris, except offing one doesn't explode the other's brain.
?
Offing Colonel had nothing to do with Iris. Your thinking Middy and Techno. Who both shared a CPU, and thus both died when the other did.
What happened, Iris went nuts out of grief that her brother had been killed by her lover is what happened. Not that her brain malfunctioned because of Colonel's death.
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What happened, Iris went nuts out of grief that her brother had been killed by her lover is what happened. Not that her brain malfunctioned because of Colonel's death.
I didn't mean it literally.
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Should have used a better analogy then...
And for the sake of argument- If Red and Axl were one split in two or any of that... Who's to say that one WOULDNT go Iris at the other's death? Axl and Red were pretty close.
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What happened, Iris went nuts out of grief that her brother had been killed by her lover is what happened. Not that her brain malfunctioned because of Colonel's death.
I believe you're forgetting something. She inserted Colonel's CPU, Ultimate Soldier and all that.
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Yeah, but because she installed it. (lol, I forgot that part)
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Well, brain exploding still stands. Just in a more indirect way. As expected Iris's system rejected Colonel's components, so she was pretty much toast then (as I am always obligated to point out, you can beat Iris in X4 without ever touching her).
Then there was that theory that Zero was created evil, uploaded a new memory and would turn on X when the time was right, which was proposed by the same guy that thought that Bass's memory was put into Vile.
The opportunity for that already existed in X5. No reason for Awakened Zero to be announcing his intentions if he's content to stab X in the back.
I thought she was grown up in X4. :/
Safe bet that she is. Sensei specifically notes trying to make her look younger for Xtreme2 in the MMXOCW commentary.
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Im sorry! Im sorry! Im sorry!
But I just remembered an old fanon theory and just had to post it! (forgive me for necroing!)
I recall hearing once that Weil was Cain gone bad.
it was like this.
As Cain got older he eventually needed brain implants or something, and his implants caught the virus, and thus he went evil. I always thought that was the funniest [parasitic bomb] ever.
Also, I never delivered on that Command mission strategy guide scans. Ill post them later today, promise.
Posted on: February 02, 2010, 02:51:40 AM
Alright, here are the scans for the opening little thing done by Bradygames.
(http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/1243/l37uadaefd899e818ae7c83.jpg)
(http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/7615/l3aojdaefd899e818ae7c83.jpg)
which is of questionable Canonity. It would fit if it was, but I dont think it counts.
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BradyGames is also responsible for the atrocious FF9 Official Strategy guide, so yeah...
Also, that doesn't make much sense. Also, the CM instruction booklet has Redips spelled two different ways.
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because Capcom US is very oh so clever, and tried to dissociate Spider and Redips by spelling Redips as "Rideps" (in japanese, they have different katakana so its not the same as simply reading it backwards or something)
I dont see how it doesnt make sense. X and Zero are not of the eastern Hunters, but the Western Hunters. Redips is in charge of the eastern like Signas is in the Western
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I was mainly just babbling. Still, it says Redips and Rideps in the book. It comes off as "TYPO" not "OH MY GOD HOW CLEVER!"
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I recall hearing once that Weil was Cain gone bad.
it was like this.
As Cain got older he eventually needed brain implants or something, and his implants caught the virus, and thus he went evil. I always thought that was the funniest [parasitic bomb] ever.
Ah, I remembered posting that before the great reset. XD
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I was mainly just babbling. Still, it says Redips and Rideps in the book. It comes off as "TYPO" not "OH MY GOD HOW CLEVER!"
Yet Cappy clearly did it on purpose.
"Hey, smart players might figure out Spider is Redips backwards just from the manual! Oh, I know! Lets switch the I and the E! No one will be the wiser!!"
They thought they were being clever by doing it. whereas that wasnt clever at all, but stupid.
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DERRR!
Really though, if they figure it out, props to them. Or maybe IT'S A COINCIDENCE! Until you find out in game.
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Thanks for the scans. :) Honestly, I didn't care enough about Redips to notice that his name was "Spider" backwards until I read Mandi's guide for MMXCM.
Now that this thread is active again, I have a question: Did anyone have/read any theories about Ruby-Spears Megaman? Not season-three related (RS didn't have anything concrete before the show was canceled), maybe?
Posted on: February 03, 2010, 01:57:46 AM
I just remembered something sorta-related (sorry if it was mentioned before): Insisting that Breakman is Blues's REAL title, and that "Protoman" isn't, because the cartoon used it. :(
Dunno how widespread it was, but I did see someone other than Mandi call him "Breakman" at all times.
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That was just the ravings of whatser name that runes MMHP. (the Breakman thing)
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Here's one. ZERO'S A GIRL! That was one that I've heard frequently.
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That was just the ravings of whatser name that runes MMHP. (the Breakman thing)
Still, there were others doing it (can't remember if it was just one other person, though).
Here's one. ZERO'S A GIRL! That was one that I've heard frequently.
Presumably, those people didn't read the manual/in-game dialogue; one wise clerk that I once spoke with said that most people didn't realize that Zero was male until X4. That's...sad.
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No, most of the people who think that just go by his long, girly hair. And boob lights.
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Here's one. ZERO'S A GIRL! That was one that I've heard frequently.
I blame the manga. Sparkly hair and eyes. XD [/didn't play X-series back then either]
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I blame the manga. Sparkly hair and eyes. XD [/didn't play X-series back then either]
Manga Zero, [Iwamoto] Was quite bishonen actually.
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So was Iwamoto-X. If I remember correctly, every other fellow in that manga was a bishie.
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except for that one clown in the first chapter.
...
And Sigma. He was just plain ugly as sin.
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Manga Zero, [Iwamoto] Was quite bishonen actually.
Well, when I first saw him that way back, I didn't know bishonen at all, so GIRL was my first thought. XD
AND SIGMA'S AWESOME
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UGLY.
(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/2339/x1ch117.jpg)
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GODDAMN D:
And for some reason, it makes me remember the "mangas are the official stories" bit. :/
I also remember seeings lots of fan-RMs on Angelfire that were little more than recolours/mishmashes of what MM sprites were available then. (Not much has changed...though I don't remember seeing any ladies) There also seemed to be certain conventions that fan-Reploids followed, like lots of unnecessary details or "Helmets are for squares".
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I remember that. I remember many many Jpegs too.
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Was .JPEG the best pic format you could put on the web at the time? (I heard that .BMPs looked better but weren't good for bandwidth) The .JPEGs I saw on those Megaman sites looked absolutely pathetic...
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UGLY.
(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/2339/x1ch117.jpg)
... He looked awesome in X2. D:
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Was .JPEG the best pic format you could put on the web at the time? (I heard that .BMPs looked better but weren't good for bandwidth) The .JPEGs I saw on those Megaman sites looked absolutely pathetic...
BMP are uncompressed and the file size was based on the picture's resolution instead of the amount of colors and data. There are color modes where you could shrink the size even more (and lose colors and quality in the process), but uncompressed full-color BMP will ALWAYS have the same size, as long as every picture has the same resolution.
Back at the time, there were JPEGs, and web-colored GIFs. The wonderful optimized coloring wasn't used effectively until people got access to the more heavy-duty programs. PNG made things better in the end tho~ ^^
That doesn't mean that one should ignore GIF or JPG. They are still great formats to use on the net. If you want your web page, blog or whatever to be accessible to everyone, one should effectively use them more often. Find the right level of compression for both of them, and they will still keep their quality (JPG), their color palette (GIF), and still be small-sized and work perfectly fine on ANY browser (including console and portable ones). ;3
But since more browsers (including the Wii browser) are now supporting PNG (and APNG), it's a good thing to use it now. >U<
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I see. :) I think I might've seen a transparent .PNG or two on Angelfire, but those pages didn't have much else on them, I think.
Speaking of Angelfire--I noticed that a lot of fansites tended to pull the Robot Masters' personalities out of their asses, even with the data CDs from Megaman and Bass Rockman and Forte (Ex: that one site that claimed that Elecman was an evil megalomaniac).
Also found some more interesting things:
http://www.angelfire.com/anime3/o-mega/home.htm (http://www.angelfire.com/anime3/o-mega/home.htm) Prematurely claims that most everyone in the Classic series is deceased, though they don't use the Cataclysm excuse (or even say why, other than that it's written in X-series-tense).
Most of their quotes come from RS-MM; in Proto's bio, they say that the cartoon might not have been popular had it not been for him. I want to know which mystical planet of glee the author lives on whose inhabitants weren't personally offended by Proto's role in RS-MM. Bizarrely, they claim that Auto was in RS-MM (a shaky claim further "backed" by all his quotes coming from MM7).
http://www.angelfire.com/bug2/bio02/ (http://www.angelfire.com/bug2/bio02/) Ugly yellow-text-on-black-BG bios for some of the bad guys. (The good guys section has nada) They claim that Darkman is the strongest of the "Sentinels".
http://www.angelfire.com/mech/hydra/final/index.html#third (http://www.angelfire.com/mech/hydra/final/index.html#third) Their bios are quite...interesting.
- Megaman was damaged in the capture of the RMs, and had to be rebuilt. He's considered a "Humanoid Defense Mechanism".
- Roll is responsible for Rush's maintenance. Her bio got copy-pasted over Dr. Light's.
- Cutman is Megaman's "most dangerous enemy", and still serves Dr. Wily. So do all the MM1 RMs.
- Gutsman often teams up with Bombman. You know, the guy whose weapon he's weak to.
- Iceman mines oil for Wily in the "frozen wastelands"; he's implied to be quite cruel.
- Bombman is truly a mad bomber--something went wrong during the reprogramming process. The bombs come out of his shoulderpads of doom.
- Fireman likes his targets at close range.
- Elecman is an expert in electronic charges, and "Too many times has Megaman returned home needing shocked systems repaired after going out to apprehend Elecman."
Oh, and in their links page, they state that Nintendo is the sole publisher of Megaman games. :/
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Funnily enough, the Bombman/Gutsman and Iceman bios seem consistant with Ariga's representations
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Yeah, wasn't thinking of Megamix at the time. I'm starting to think that, back in the old days, it was considered "the story of the games that clearly already have story" like Iwamoto's mangas.
Posted on: February 16, 2010, 04:12:44 PM
Here's something interesting (http://www.sprites-inc.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=5234&page=7) (post #125): Roll's middle name of "Ryan" is fanon, since it came from a fan translation of SvCCF 2. For the longest time, I thought it was just something that was thrown in the original game. :/
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im not sure if these have been posted yet,but heres the ones i remeber.
Megaman was a middle aged cop who got in a really bad accident and was turned into a android by doctors,And zero and x are cousins.
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Haha, I remember that first one. Not the cop part, but yeah.
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Megaman was a middle aged cop who got in a really bad accident and was turned into a android by doctors
(http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/3845/robocopinactionp.jpg)
"Serve the public trust, protect the innocent, uphold the law."
"Dead or alive, you're coming with me!"
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Heh, one Megaman pirate game (Zook Z) used that plot, minus the middle-aged part.
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(http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/3845/robocopinactionp.jpg)
"Serve the public trust, protect the innocent, uphold the law."
"Dead or alive, you're coming with me!"
ROBOCOP
VS.
ROCKMAN
FIGHT!
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This feels like necroposting and probably is, but I've found something relevant to this thread: Codename Yoshi's list of names.
I think it's safe to say that this is all of them, since the site seems to have shut down in 2002. The odd Maverick names could be chalked up to translation issues; the other names are the fanon ones mentioned a while back, plus some ones that weren't.
[spoiler]
File 01: Rockman X / Mega Man X
File 02: Zero Omega
File 03: Sigma (Final Boss)
Part 1 Revived Legend
File 04: Vava Vile
File 05: Armor Armage
File 06: Launcher Octopuld
File 07: Icy Penguigo
File 08: Burnin' Noumander
File 09: Storm Eagleed
File 10: Spark Mandriller
File 11: Sting Chameleao
File 12: Boomer Kuwanger
File 13: Maruce Brazenor
File 14: Till Milner
File 15: Marty Gibson
Part 2 Sigma Resurrection
File 16: James Cain (Doctor)
File 17: Agile Nion (Counter Hunter)
File 18: Serges Brit (Counter Hunter)
File 19: Violen Chin (Counter Hunter)
File 20: Wire Hetimarl
File 21: Metamor Mothmenos
File 22: Flame Stagger
File 23: Magne Hyakulegger
File 24: Sonic Ostleague
File 25: Bubbly Crabros
File 26: Wheel Alligates
File 27: Cryster Mymine
File 28: Captain Matthew
Cyber Mission
File 29: Midi Richmond
File 30: Techno Richmond
Part 3 Doppler Evilchange
File 31: Steven Doppler (Doctor)
File 32: Vajurilla FF (Nightmare Police)
File 33: Mandarella BB (Nightmare Police)
File 34: Explose Horneck
File 35: Frozen Buffario
File 36: Gravity Beetbood
File 37: Acid Seaforce
File 38: Electro Namazros
File 39: Scissors Shrimper
File 40: Screw Masaider
File 41: Shining Tigerd
File 42: Ann Aldworth
Part 4 Repliforce Independence
File 43: General
File 44: Colonel Thorne
File 45: Iris Thorne
File 46: Double Jell
File 47: Web Spidus
File 48: Cyber Kujacker
File 49: Storm Fukuroul
File 50: Magmard Dragoon
File 51: Jet Stinglen
File 52: Split Mushroom
File 53: Slash Beastleo
File 54: Frost Kibatodos
Part 5 Earth Extinction
File 55: Dynamo Trooper
File 56: Signas Lancaster
File 57: Alia Strachan
File 58: Douglas Bolton
File 59: Lifesaver
File 60: Crescent Grizzly
File 61: Volt Klarken
File 62: Shining Hotarnicus (Doctor)
File 63: Tidal McAueen
File 64: Spiral Pegacion
File 65: Spike Rosered
File 66: Dark Necrobat
File 67: Burne Dinorex[/spoiler]
"Sutherland" is kinda close to "Strachan", I guess.
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Those really make me chuckle a bit.
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Those really make me chuckle a bit.
dey made me shuckle 2!
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When I was still young, and didn't really understand any English, I had this theory with Protoman and Zero:
When Mega Man managed to defeat Wily twice; he decided to make a "super fighting robot" of his own, and tried to clone Mega Man. The result was none other than Protoman, who was inferior to Mega Man due to a cloning failure. However, as this didn't stop Mega Man, Wily decided to further improve Proto Man, and the result was Zero (meanwhile when Dr. Light improves Mega Man in to X).
That's just the rough idea, but as I started to understand English more and more, and realized Proto Man wasn't a clone of Mega Man, I tried to further improve this theory. Unfortunately can't remember any of those "improvements".
Also, when I was even younger I thought Zero was X's mother.
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when I was even younger I thought Zero was X's mother.
*tries not to laugh*
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Also, when I was even younger I thought Zero was X's mother.
this definitely has got to be the best one.
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...Actually, a playable mother/son team in the X series might be fun. :) Just not X and Zero. D:
(On an unrelated note, I wish more of the images at the archived site worked. :( )
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Screw that, go the EXE route with Haruka and Netto, or the Star Force route with Hope and Geo. Whichever one is chosen, it should have a beach scene. ^_^
Seriously though, this is just another ZERO-IS-A-GIRL theory.
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...Actually, a playable mother/son team in the X series might be fun. :)
Does it have to be the X series?
[spoiler](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v96/Demonlord/Rockman%20ZX/momandson.png) >U<[/spoiler]
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Aw man, that would've been twice the awesome. ;_;
Speaking of ZX--I've mentioned it before, but I'll say it again: I theorized that Promes and Pandora were lovers.
Oops.
This may be a shot in the dark, given that US and PAL Megaman continuities are identical and that I can only speak English, but does anyone know of old European MM theories? That seems to be one of the few areas of old theories that hasn't been examined yet (or if so, then my faulty memory).
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Speaking of ZX--I've mentioned it before, but I'll say it again: I theorized that Promes and Pandora were lovers.
Oops.
I think it would have been better that way. Well, without the whole siblings thing...
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This feels like necroposting and probably is, but I've found something relevant to this thread: Codename Yoshi's list of names.
I think it's safe to say that this is all of them, since the site seems to have shut down in 2002.
Sort of.
Kayama had it up as "Codename Yoshi", then switched servers and went with "Virtual Study Desk". The site died sometime after X7's release.
He had fanon names made as far as X6.
[spoiler]Part 6
Gate Vengeance
File 69: Gate Renoir Starway
File 70: High-Max
File 71: iSoc
File 72: Commander Yammark
File 73: Rainy Turtroid
File 74: Shieldner Shelldun
File 75: Bllizard Wolfang
File 76: Blaze Heatnix
File 77: Infinity Miginion
File 78: Metalshark Player
File 79: Ground Scaravich
http://web.archive.org/web/20030323010144/http://utsunomiya.cool.ne.jp/vsd/stage2/area1/chara.html[/spoiler]
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Ah, thanks.
It also seems that he combined Curtiss and Schmitt with Bit and Byte. That's...odd.
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starway sounds like Stairway...
Gate stairway... lol.
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iSoc. Apple still exists in the X timeline.
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Does it have to be the X series?
[spoiler](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v96/Demonlord/Rockman%20ZX/momandson.png) >U<[/spoiler]
D:
Now I wanna see a mother/daughter team... O^O
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"Hey, Mom! This Maverick's armour is really powerful--what should I do?"
"Shove a few sticks of dynamite up its arse, dear."
I'm not sure how old this theory is, since it's still in use today, but I'm thinking it's somewhat old: The Megaman games have the same history as the Real World(TM) up until the whole robots who shoot bees thing.
Let's ignore the fact that (unless I'm missing something) Capcom hasn't said anything on the matter; the main problem I have with it is this:
"WELL SINCE THE MEGAMAN GAMES FOLLOW OUR HISTORY THAT MEANS THAT ASIMOV'S LAWS ARE IN PLACE THEREFORE EVERYTHING THAT ANYONE DOES IS PRE-DETERMINED BY THE LAWS"
What, no accounting for why we had sentient robots before 2010?
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The Megaman games have the same history as the Real World(TM) up until the whole robots who shoot bees thing.
There IS a large degree of overlap between real world history and Rockman world history. As is natural of all fiction that is supposed to occur on THIS Earth.
"WELL SINCE THE MEGAMAN GAMES FOLLOW OUR HISTORY THAT MEANS THAT ASIMOV'S LAWS ARE IN PLACE THEREFORE EVERYTHING THAT ANYONE DOES IS PRE-DETERMINED BY THE LAWS"
Real life does not follow Asimov.
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Real life does not follow Asimov.
Their "reasoning" is that, since Isaac Asimov's books must have been published in the history that Megaman supposedly follows, the Laws would be defictionalized; thus, they don't have to explain why a character did or didn't do something.
I can't quite remember the original dialogue in the infamous "DIE WILY" scene, but I don't think Wily said "according to the First Law"--just a generic law that would mean Mega's little blue ass in jail or worse if he shot Wily. (Also aware of the X1 opening, but I don't want to touch that right now)
Posted on: May 27, 2010, 01:29:10 AM
Here's something (http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/17umh/profile.html) vaguely amusing. Let's see...
* It's hard to tell what the author's talking about in Proto's bio; was the "malfunction in his circuit system" what turned him evil, or did that malfunction lead him to Dr. Wily who swayed him to the side of evil? Either way, there's no core involved.
* The author hates on Rush, Beat, and Tango. ;_; Claims Rush starts more trouble than he stops, that Beat was built by Dr. Light, and that Tango is a "screwball".
* Not only is Bass Wily's first Megaman clone, but he eventually becomes Zero.
* Mommy Caskett is an alien!
There's also a lot of alternate names being thrown around, such as:
* 0 (Zero)
* Sygma (Sigma)
* V.I.L.E. (Vile)
* Tackle (Double)
* Deploy all Zig (Colonel)
* Isis (Iris)
* Megaman Neo (Rock Volnutt)
* Bancoscus (Klaymoor; while that is his original name, his English name is never mentioned)
I did some poking around the Capcom of Europe MM forums; the only theory I could find was one concerning Zero in the classic series. Essentially, Proto's crappy reactor is removed (ergo he's dead), Bass sacrifices himself (ergo he's dead), and Megaman defeats Zero (ergo...he survives, I guess). I had to use Babelfish to translate the German, so I'm probably getting something wrong.
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Megaman Neo probably comes from the concept name...
Tackle? haha... consisdering thats what he DOES, that isnt too surprising, and it sounds a hell of a lot better than "Jello Man"
Sygma... Im reminded if RS naming him Cygma.
Rush starting trouble sounds like something RS inspired too. Lol at V.I.L.E. too.
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Yeah. XD Not quite sure where he got Zig and Isis from, though. Inept fan translation?
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I'm at a loss for "Zig" as well, besides maybe too much Zero Wing.
And the only time I ever recall hearing "Isis" in relation to MegaMan was in the Reploid Hunter Iris comic.
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Good Lord I can't believe I'm updating this thing again. Mostly more "just before the Dark Age of the Internet" crap again, but some of it I found amusing.
Also, all of these sites are in Portuguese, which I cannot read without Babelfish. So I'm probably wrong about a few things.
http://megaman_site.vilabol.uol.com.br/index.htm (http://megaman_site.vilabol.uol.com.br/index.htm) Last update in 2001.
* Claims that Protoman is a joint creation of Drs. Light and Wily; I don't think it mentioned anything about his internal problems, just that he turned "evil".
* Dr. Cossack and Kalinka are Arab now! (...buh?)
* Roll, Kalinka, Beat, Auto, Dr. Cain, and General all got gender-bendered. I dunno if some of those are mistakes on the webmaster's part or if Babelfish just doesn't like Portuguese pronouns.
* Claims X is Megaman and Zero is Protoman.
* Claims Megaman and Bass is Megaman 9.
There's also lots of CD database stuff that I haven't looked into yet; I think their claim of Megaman converting Bass to good was just a joke.
www.megamanxbase.hpg.com.br/ (http://www.megamanxbase.hpg.com.br/) Last update in 2002; not much of note other than claiming that the Astro Boy series (all of them) and the Megaman series are directly related.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/7043/ (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/7043/) (Site is defunct; you have to run it through Babelfish). The last update apparently wasn't in 2000, but I only looked into one of the archived versions from that year.
* Not only does the Classic series take place in the 2050s, but the X series is only "a distant 30 years away".
* Once again, Wily is Dr. Light's former assistant. All of the industrial robots (and Proto) were built before Megaman and Roll.
* Claims that Proto is training Megaman in MM3.
* Spells Kalinka's name as "Karinka", just like a certain comic.
That's about all I could find. I want to try and look into www.gamezero.com/ (http://www.gamezero.com/) later via Wayback Machine (site seems to be busy right now) and see if they have anything on Megaman.
EDIT: Turned out I didn't have to use WM, but sadly, I could only find two MM-related things there--both unimpressed reviews of MM7 and MMX. Damn.
EDIT2: Wait, they had an MM4 review, too. Derp. Only things of note are a misspelling ("Cosak") and the "Megablaster".