RockmanPM Forums
Rockman & Community => Rockman Series => Topic started by: Waifu on January 09, 2012, 06:57:34 PM
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You know I had seen and played my fair share of Mega Man 3d games. Legends notwithstanding, how would a 3D Mega man game work out? Mega Man X7 was an attempt to get the X series into 3D but it didn't really workout to well and it was filled with so many flaws that it is was not even funny. Mega Man Legends is an adventure RPG similar to the Zelda franchise. Mega Man X8, Mega Man Transmission, Mega man Powerup and Maverick Hunter X were 2.5D games so while they they did use 3D they were mostly sidescrollers with 3D graphics anyway. Super Mario 64 is an awesome platformer that is still awesome even to this day but on thing always bothered me, how can blend an action sidescroller series like Mega man into something similar to Jak and Daxter? What would have to change in order for Mega man to go into 3D?
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Vanquish
with Mega Man characters
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First thing that would have to change is Capcom giving a damn about the franchise.
After that... we'd just need some good level design with well-executed gameplay. X7 was a fair attempt, but it failed overall. I think polishing up everything might have more success.
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Vanquish if you focus on the combat elements (would be really good for an X series style game), Ratchet & Clank if you go the route of crazy platforming challenges with even crazier weapons at your disposal Classic Series style. You could also adapt Zero series in a Devil May Cry/Ninja Gaiden style & ZX in a similar manner to the R&C idea except with more focus on form changing versus external weaponry.
I was also playing with an idea in my head for an action game using Axl (or Axl's mechanics) for a combat design where instead of getting tons of weapons to play with, the character morphs parts of their form for the close combat needs while guns are there for ranged play.
This franchise has so much potential.
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First off, I'll say that I am one of the few people who openly admits to liking Megaman X7 a lot, despite its limitations.
That said, a 3D Mega Man game can work if the following occurred:
1. The game constantly ran at 60FPS with no slowdowns.
2. The camera functions properly (e.g., Legends 1 and 2; the fight against Red in X7. Not the trainwreck of a camera in Boarski's boss arena in X7.)
3. Playtesting is key.
4. Potential patches.
5. No glitches or bugs that could negatively affect the game.
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X7 had a dead on clear shot to send it home, but then it slipped and tripped on it's own feet.
X7 had a GOOD movement and gameplay engine, despite a few drawbacks that could be easily fixed.
Fixes:
1. Walking speed needs to increase. And as a result, so does dashing to compensate.
2. Dash jump off of a wall and back lands you lower than where you started. Needs to be more like the other games in this regard.
3. Camera is terrible. Redo it entirely.
4. Stage design was pretty shitty. This needs a complete redo.
5. Lose the 2D/3D mixture. The 3D was fine, given you fix it up. Mixing them just screws up the physics and speed for each other.
6. Death pits and completely stunned knocked down status do not work well together.
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How do you define bad stage design anyway? Never played X7 myself.
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I would define "bad stage" with "Tornado Tonion".
You know that winding staircase shpiel that they used for brief segments of Split Mushroom's and Izzy Glow's stages? They basically made an ENTIRE stage out of just that.
The 2D level design of the game is just entirely too linear. The only 2D level that comes close to decent is Soldier Stonekong's. The auto-lock doesn't really help make things any less boring, either; there's no reason for it to exist in 2D.
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The only 3D stages I recall enjoying a bit were parts of Gungaroo and Hyena's stages.
To be honest I barely recall most of X7's stages. they were pretty bland all together. not only was the 2D overly linear, but the 3D was too. And the 3D sections had little to no platforming.
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Hyenard's stages were awful
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I thought Anteater's level was cool, with the flipped area teleporters and the nifty music.
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Hyenard's stages were awful
What I learned from playing X7:
"BURN! BURN TO THE GROUND! BURN! BURN! BURN TO THE GROUND!" x100
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A valuable lesson.
That, and always keep a D-Glaive handy. 8)
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People actually finding good things about X7 mystify me, and this is coming from someone who enjoys X6 quite a bit. XD
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Well there you go. if you can enjoy X6, i'm sure others can find enjoyable parts of X7.
I thought Anteater's level was cool, with the flipped area teleporters and the nifty music.
It was.
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I liked X6.
Except the first(?) Gate Laboratory stage with all the totem poles and spikes and enemies everywhere, it was complete hell
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People actually finding good things about X7 mystify me, and this is coming from someone who enjoys X6 quite a bit. XD
Let's just say for my case, it took a while for me to like X7 a lot. I initially thought that X7 was fair at best after I cleared the game and retired from playing it for a while. But after I eventually decided to play it on hard, tested a few things, and I eventually won against Red on Hard perfectly, I truly appreciated and loved Megaman X7 a lot.
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I think that the X series from X2 onward had pretty bland level designs (some exception nonwithstanding)
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I wouldn't say that. Most of X2's levels were just that much shorter than X1's. X3 fixed that, but then X4 went and made the levels a tad linear. Not that they were all bad or anything, just a tad more linear.
X7 is a blurry mish-mash of [parasitic bomb] to me. I remember Gungaroo's stage with the Ride Armor, Ride Boarski's bad Cheval stage, Wind Crowrang's airship, that burning battleship stage, the cyberspace stage, and really boring music.
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really boring music.
To me, X7 had the best music.
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X7 is a blurry mish-mash of [parasitic bomb] to me. I remember Gungaroo's stage with the Ride Armor, Ride Boarski's bad Cheval stage, Wind Crowrang's airship, that burning battleship stage, the cyberspace stage, and really boring music.
I agree with you on Boarski's stage being quite bad.
I am so-so with the cyberspace stage. The right-side up parts work fine, but the inverted portions were confusing when I first dealt with it.
But I disagree on everything else, especially the boring music part. While the X7 soundtrack is not one of the ideal soundtracks ever, it has some great songs like the Crimson Palace theme, Red's theme, both of Sigma's themes, and the ending credits song, among a few others.
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Basically like a third person shooter with lots of movement options, then throw in some 2.5D platforming parts to stay traditional. It's that simple.
X7 actually TRIED to do this and FAILED miserably. In all honesty, it could have worked out. It's obviously too late now.
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Basically like a third person shooter with lots of movement options, then throw in some 2.5D platforming parts to stay traditional. It's that simple.
X7 actually TRIED to do this and FAILED miserably. In all honesty, it could have worked out. It's obviously too late now.
I could see this using the source engine. That would probably be pretty intresting, to say the least.
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The Sigma theme and battle themes, are really kick ass.
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The combat mechanics of Metroid Other M (especially if you only do charge shots in battles, and I mean ONLY charged shots) somehow, can give a vision of a very nice 3D X game~
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The combat mechanics of Metroid Other M (especially if you only do charge shots in battles, and I mean ONLY charged shots) somehow, can give a vision of a very nice 3D X game~
I thought about this from the moment I first did the tutorial for that game. In the case of Megaman though, there's got to be a good use of analogs mixed with pointer for ranged game things. Melee as per Zero can go straight DMC style with some Vanquish boost mechanics here and there.
Basically like a third person shooter with lots of movement options, then throw in some 2.5D platforming parts to stay traditional. It's that simple.
X7 actually TRIED to do this and FAILED miserably. In all honesty, it could have worked out. It's obviously too late now.
Agreed entirely with this. X7 was something that could have had it, but the issues the game wound up having were just detrimental. Things were just too slow and choppy looking, there's was an aura of cheapness to it after like the very first part of the opening stage (first 3D switch at that), collision detection issues all over the place and DAT CAMERA.
In a way, it's kinda sad that after this, they went back to 2D gameplay with X8 instead of playing with the ideas for a 3D X game more, but at that time, there weren't a lot of things to take inspiration from were there in regards to making a fast paced high mobility robot asskicking-a-thon were there?
I liked X6.
Except the first(?) Gate Laboratory stage with all the totem poles and spikes and enemies everywhere, it was complete hell
I actually hate this level because from when I first played the game in 2001 until now, I could never make this one specific wall jump in that level to keep going with the Shadow Armor (bestest armor ever). XD
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I actually hate this level because from when I first played the game in 2001 until now, I could never make this one specific wall jump in that level to keep going with the Shadow Armor (bestest armor ever). XD
I believe you guys are talking about the second Gate's Lab level (although I've heard some complaints about wall-jumping during one of the lava segments in the first, but that's just a matter of needing to try harder).
Hyper Dash + Jumper, if you want to make it easy. Hyper Dash alone works if you're pressed for part slots, but you have to position it just right.
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instead of playing with the ideas for a 3D X game more,
Well at least Command Mission was a good 3D X game, even if it was a different genre all together. Only real 'technical' issue with it is the lack of facial expressions. Its noticeable most on X, since Gatha does his thing and X just stands there with the same look on his face all the time.
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Considering that it was the only 3D X game to even do lip movements, it's kinda hard to criticize Command Mission for its expressions...
Doubly so when you consider the extreme laziness of X8/MHX's character mugshots during dialogue. I REALLY don't like Yoshikawa having the art director's seat...
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Considering that it was the only 3D X game to even do lip movements, it's kinda hard to criticize Command Mission for its expressions...
Doubly so when you consider the extreme laziness of X8/MHX's character mugshots during dialogue. I REALLY don't like Yoshikawa having the art director's seat...
I was once one of the detractors to his style being used in X8, but after seeing his lush concept art for said game in the R20 book recently, I might have to reconsider and blame the in game stuff on a still immature transition to 3D models and the like on the PS2. The character captions were ok, no need to nitpick there even if animated portrait expressions would have been nice.
Seriously, his stuff is good, almost Nayakama good with regards to scenery. Character design is here and there though.
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Legends had facial expressions and body language nailed. Even the game engines were a pretty solid bed for a 3D action game in the X series, but they have since been superseded by Lost Planet and Legends 3, so there you go.
I do like the idea of Vanquish with Mega Man characters though. That powerslide they do could work great for Mega Man's powerslide. As for an X game, I can just imagine a real tasty recreation of the factory fight in X2's intro stage in 3D, where the big robo would take a lot more hits and destroy a lot more platforms before he was through.
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I was once one of the detractors to his style being used in X8, but after seeing his lush concept art for said game in the R20 book recently, I might have to reconsider and blame the in game stuff on a still immature transition to 3D models and the like on the PS2. The character captions were ok, no need to nitpick there even if animated portrait expressions would have been nice.
Seriously, his stuff is good, almost Nayakama good with regards to scenery. Character design is here and there though.
Honestly I'm not the biggest fan of Nakayama either, but that's more on the grounds of feeling unfit for the character of Zero himself than it is his actual ability.
Here's the thing, though. Platform transitions and new technologies do not excuse the level of laziness present in the character expressions. I'm not even talking about lacking animation, either. It's things like the Neutral Armor being very obviously designed to excuse the lack of armored expressions. The parts that you've selected demand only a palette swap and they can't even be assed to do that. MHX then took it a step further and ignored armor outright. The basic concept of "layers" should be all that is needed to handle these things properly, but they can't be bothered to do so.
As much as I love X6, it is still one of the most infamously rushed games in the series, and even it did not commit the extreme lapses in artistic presentation that X8 and MHX do. Yoshikawa, as I see it, focuses too much on making the job easier, rather than what does the characters justice.
Legends had facial expressions and body language nailed.
An EXTREMELY valid point there. The use of Legends' facial expressions is phenomenal. Throughout both games you see a lot of face textures designed for a specific moment, and a specific camera angle, to create the illusion of a level of detail that the PS1 is not technically capable of. It's some pretty outstanding stuff.
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Yeah, X6 had great mugshots.
I recall X4's mugshots followed the same deal for X's armor.
MHX and X8 are the laziest in the mugshot department. (of the X games that USE Mugshots in conversations- X5 had armored mugs for the weapon selectscreen, but didnt use mugs in conversations..)
although the Zero series never made much of a fuss about Zero's color swaps in mugs either.
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I just wish they made more use of expressions. I mean, I got that shot while X was halfway through blinking by pure chance and it just adds so much personality to it.
(this shot http://i40.tinypic.com/2qmzpd5.jpg in case you don't know what I mean)
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Yeah, X6 had great mugshots.
I recall X4's mugshots followed the same deal for X's armor.
As did X3 (character switching), and the Get Weapon screens of X1 and X2.
It's sad to think that presentational details that were accomplished on the Super NES cannot be preserved in today's era of gaming technology, but I guess rising development costs tend to encourage devs to cut some very obvious corners. -AC
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Actually, isnt the neutral armor itself lazy? Its basically so they dont have to have X running around mix matching parts. This way, he has a full armor on at all times, and all it changes are the lights on it. I mean 2 armors in one sounds nice on paper, but when you realize that parts collection is no different from any other X game, and the full armors have different names to boot, it seems like it's just terribly convenient that the 2 armors are part of the one armor... They dont have to model different armors that way, and dont have to model individual parts either, just the one full armor, and change only the lights on it.
It's even more so lazy when you notice that they also made the Ultimate armor just a pallet swap part of the same armor.
X7 for it's faults, at least stuck to the pre-X5 tradition regarding armor parts. Then again though, there was only one armor to model, whereas X8 has 3.
So perhaps it might have been too expensive. Though it still feels pretty lazy.
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As lazy as the armor was, the Neutral Armor is my favorite armor for X. It started off with me loving the white shoes of X in the Neutral Armor when I first saw a picture of him. Then the functions of the various parts really got me liking the armor even more. The Icarus and Hermes variants made the Neutral Armor even cooler, although the coloring of Ultimate Armor was fair at best IMO. Finally, the Neutral Armor made X slightly resemble Casshern (I like Casshern too, BTW.) X in the Neutral Armor is probably the major factor that made me like Megaman X8 a lot.
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I don't blame you. Functionally the Neutral Armor is freaking awesome. Mix-and-match armor is something I was dreaming of ever since X6. It's just that artistically they obviously bare-boned it.
...although that's pretty much the same story for most of X8 and MHX. And I don't think it's as if the fanbase hasn't noticed, either; Yoshikawa seems to redesign almost everything he touches and the only one that actually stuck was Alia (breasts and feminine hair styles will do that).
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Not to mention graphically, X8 and MHX are underwhelming when compared to it's two predecessors.
Actually, one thing I don't get is the getting rid of the cell shaded look X8 had in I believe it was the trailers? Or one of them? And which both X7 and CM have. It looked really good.
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I consider CM to be the most visually pleasing MM game. Unfortunately, we haven't really seen a more graphically achieved game in the franchise. And I really, really love the design choice for X's armor. Ultimate armor was overkill, but I like the Gundam vibe.
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X-Fire looked more like the traditional Ultimate Armor IMO.
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I consider CM to be the most visually pleasing MM game. Unfortunately, we haven't really seen a more graphically achieved game in the franchise. And I really, really love the design choice for X's armor. Ultimate armor was overkill, but I like the Gundam vibe.
Very much agreed on all points. Command Mission was by far the best looking Mega Man game and its original designs, even if at times unorthadox, were pretty damn badass.