RockmanPM Forums
Rockman & Community => Rockman Series => X => Topic started by: Waifu on October 28, 2010, 06:11:54 PM
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Maybe not all of us fans enjoy X but I do enjoy X as a character as well as the games he appears in. Most of us like X but it seems like most people enjoy Zero and Axl more. Why? Because compared to those two guys who just kick maverick [sonic slicer] and take names, X's pacifism just seems to make fans irritated at him especially with limitless potential and all the power he has. I know Zero had always been meant to be the main character but X is a well developed character just a s Zero is, he starts off as an insecure, young man who struggles to find his purpose in life to a mature adult, true leader and hero to all. I like X but it seems like most fans seem to enjoy Zero (and to some extent Axl) more, it doesn't help that X's character wasn't handled properly in X7 and the whole virus plotline is used almost too much in the series. I basically answered my own question but does anyone still think X is interesting?
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Axl more liked than X? I don't think so.
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Axl more liked than X? I don't think so.
Ok maybe that is stretching it 8D but Zero definitely.
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I think X has potential (story- and character-wise) but it feels like they're not doing much with him. Think X7 might have been trying if it's true that his pacifism was mostly due to "lost in translation", and he was actually just not joining in because it seemed like a pointless waste of lives or whatsit.
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Clearly X doesn't want to show all his potential when Zero is around.
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I thought X7 took his pacifism to ridiculous levels of "that's not pacifism, that's passiveness". :/
Anyway, I like X just as much as any other MMX character. (Even Axl--one has to go above and beyond to make me loathe a character)
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I like almost all Megaman characters (I don't care for Starforce)
X is in my top 5 :D
He's mature, thinks before using that weapon of mass destruction that some call an arm,and he fits Zero's character.
Infact with Axl they form a great team.
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If X can survive a bloody laser blast through the chest then what's not to love? Oh, by "Axl gets more love than X", you mean the crazed shippers over at DA, which he's all good for, and he's almost always paired with someone in an Axl fan pic.
I guess I like each individually, even Dark Necrobat and Gate, plus I'm one of the few that aren't kids that can tolerate Star Force. X1-3 mostly covers X (everyone wanted a peice of him and his hidden potential), X4-6 covers Zero (His backstory), and X7 and 8 covers Axl (Bringing something "fresh" to the table). It's fifty-fifty I say.
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I like X, his a freakin weapon mass of destruction when equipped with Ultimate Armor,more so than Zero .
I dont care that much if he's being a pacifist in X7.....eventhough its a bit annoying, he still had the guts to blow everything.
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I admit I like Zero better, but X is a close second, and I will *ALWAYS* take the X/Zero tag-team over either one of them solo. It's one of the very few things that I didn't appreciate about X4; the fact that they're each going their separate ways (barring X's ending).
They each are stronger for the other's presence, and balance each other very well. X holds on to his ideals, while Zero pushes through the dirty work (Axl kinda stole that role in X8).
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We SO need an Xtreme 3 that goes before X7 so we can see more of the exclusive X/Zero team...
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An Xtreme 3 set after X8 would work, too, considering Axl'd be in a coma.
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X: BAH WAAAH WHY DO WE HAVE TO FI- A MAVERICK! SHOOT TO KILL!
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An Xtreme 3 set after X8 would work, too, considering Axl'd be in a coma.
Says who? X said he was fine. Punching a reploid in the head knocks them out, not send them into a coma.
See: Zero.
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We don't know how long Zero was out for, though?
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I know Capcom isn't know for their consistency but making a game in between X6 and X7 will cause a ton of plotholes. I could see threads all over the place with complaints.
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How? Anything can fit between those two.
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We don't know how long Zero was out for, though?
He was taken to the repair center, studied and repaired by Cain, and woken up, where all traces of Maverick behavior were gone. Then subsequently put into the 17th elite with X, under Sigma.
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I know Capcom isn't know for their consistency but making a game in between X6 and X7 will cause a ton of plotholes. I could see threads all over the place with complaints.
A title between X6 and X7 could work perfectly. However, it requires a lot of care to comfortably transition into X7's story. As it is, the disconnect between the two can only be justified by the distance to X7. Another game would close the gap, and thus have to smoothen it.
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As long as the gap is unspecified, I don't think that's necessarily true. Just look at all the console Metroids of the last two generations. Not as if the X6-X7 gap couldn't use a bit of smoothing, though, I'm just saying they don't HAVE to do it.
Placing an Xtreme3 at any point after X5 would actually be considerably easier in terms of continuity than Xtreme2, since we're past the "landmark" of Zero's main-series interactions with Light. In fact, fitting between X6 and X7 hits right at the transition when Light went on an anti-social bout with X's supporters, so it would free them up a bit in that regard. As for X, just make sure the bad guy says something that stings him a bit at the end (I always saw the X7 "disappearance" as X6 Sigma's taunting getting to him).
Personally, if I did an X side-game I'd go between X4 and X5. I think a "bridge" story during that time period, after Repliforce and before Wily enters, would be very interesting to tell. However the Xtremes tend to be fairly self-contained.
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Answering this thread's title:
I love X way more than Zero.
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Answering this thread's title:
I love X way more than Zero.
Same answer for PB!
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Answering this thread's title:
I love X way more than Zero.
Same answer for PB!
Likewise. Poor guy gets shafted too often though.
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I like both of them equally....honestly.
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I don't think "Zero" was meant to be the main character. Unless you know more from Inafune than I do.
I think if Inafune had his way with MegaMan X, "X" himself would still have the character attributed to him, he'd just look like the Zero that we saw in the first X game, and Zero would probably cease to exist. Does that not make sense?
Anyway I like X and Zero. I dislike tag-teaming them, I like having completely separate experiences like it was in MegaMan X4. You might say it cheapens the game to have to play it twice, but I'd say it's too easy to have two health bars and the advantages of both characters.
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I don't think "Zero" was meant to be the main character. Unless you know more from Inafune than I do.
I think if Inafune had his way with MegaMan X, "X" himself would still have the character attributed to him, he'd just look like the Zero that we saw in the first X game, and Zero would probably cease to exist. Does that not make sense?
thats what we mean when we say "Zero" was supposed to be X. the design was supposed to be X.
Anyway I like X and Zero. I dislike tag-teaming them, I like having completely separate experiences like it was in MegaMan X4. You might say it cheapens the game to have to play it twice, but I'd say it's too easy to have two health bars and the advantages of both characters.
hoo boy, Hypershell's gonna have a field day here. 8D
I can understand what you mean, but separating their stories completely is not the answer either. If anything, what X5 and 6 did. both playable in the same story, just you only pick one character. Separating them is a bad idea because the story states that they are good as a team. they are the best of partners, as Zero puts it in Zero 1. So giving them completely separate story lines in a game really contradicts that.
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You may be right, but gameplay-wise I am a tad more old-fashioned. I am by no means a MegaMan purist of the "jump and shoot" sort, but I really think that the X series started out amazing, peaked again at X4, and then just sort of slid downward from there. Not just gameplay-wise but story-wise. Having them play together (with Axl kinda bumped in) did not help the story much for me, and I could really abuse the extra damage.
I mean, MegaMan Xtreme 2 was kind of a bad game but when you think about it, the final boss really actually REQUIRED the use of both characters. That's one thing I liked about it. For the rest of the X games I can't say I cared at all for X7, and for X8 I really didn't see the strategic idea of the tag-team really worked up to its full potential. You could mostly just get away with playing as one guy and then using the dual strike attack.** I might have to blame Axl for that as well. (It's okay if you like Axl, I just personally don't want him in my MegaMan.)
**(Forgive me if I'm wrong because I haven't played in a while, but that's what I remember about it.)
And this is all well and good for me to say, but I guess when I put it the way that I did, I can see that I'm not overall against the concept of it, just how it was implemented.
Another idea would be to introduce the duo in a 2-player simultaneous game. That might go a long way. As you probably know, Nintendo's been doing it with Donkey Kong Country Returns and New Super Mario Bros Wii, for example.
thats what we mean when we say "Zero" was supposed to be X. the design was supposed to be X.
My statement was directed at er, ah, the topic creator, who's name has a character in it that my computer can't see (sorry). He brings up X's development as a rebuttal to the idea that Zero was supposed to be the main character, which suggests that a red X would have developed Zero's personality and that blue X developed differently as a result of Capcom telling Inafune to make a blue X design. And I was arguing, like you'd agree, that it was the other way around. It's hard to explain what I mean exactly, but that's how I interpreted the post.
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X4 is my favorite X game myself, FYI.
Still, from what you are saying, basically what you would want to see done if they are to include a tag team system, is have the stage actually take advantage of their unique abilities. (Zero's Double jump, Axl's roll/hover, Maybe X's charge shot, etc)
and just FYI, It wasnt Capcom that "made" him do anything. He was all set and ready to present his badass red X. But he didnt. Because he came to the conclusion that his design might not be accepted by fans as a "Megaman" because it did not look anything like the original Megaman. So he instead had Kaji come up with X, and when he went to his superior, he presented Kaji's design as "the main character" and Zero as "the sub/side character"
to which his superior chuckled and went "Red, huh..." and approved them.
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for X8 I really didn't see the strategic idea of the tag-team really worked up to its full potential. You could mostly just get away with playing as one guy and then using the dual strike attack.
I'm gonna have to disagree there. The game's tag mechanics actually make the game a much deeper experience. You can cancel ANY animation into a character switch, which allows for a lot of flexibility that wouldn't be there otherwise. Besides, I don't see a problem with having more than one hunter at a time, either. It kinda makes more sense for them to go on missions together; as much I love X4, I can't help but wonder what the other character was doing throughout the entire game.
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Fair enough, Flame. And yes, about the tag-teaming, that's exactly it. My thinking is rather fluid and I contradict myself sometimes. It's not so much that I can't make up my mind on something but I like to deconstruct my own arguments to clarify if and why I hate something and sometimes I don't always come to the same conclusion in my follow-up posts.
But anyway yeah. Zero could gain entrance to an area that X could not, and hit a switch or something—that's the most simplistic example. It would still add more to simultaneous gameplay rather than 1 player, BUT I was thinking more like unique enemies with separate saber and buster weaknesses. I'm no professional critic, but that seems like a good idea, no?
Aqua, I agree that it may have added flexibility, but it didn't add any real challenge to that flexibility. When you escalate the player's abilities and then place the player in the same combat situation as they had before, they'll have it easier. They had to opportunity to make you use it in unique ways... but since they added Axl to the story, and you could only choose between two given characters at a time, it would have hindered the gameplay to bring in an opponent that, say, only Axl could defeat because you chose X and Zero, and couldn't go further in the level. And having you switch between three characters with one button would have been annoying. So in that sense I kinda blame Axl as one of the reasons X8 could have been awesome but wasn't. It was still FUN, but...
The end result was just an easier game. For me, there was less of a thrill from beating it. If the only reason for including it in the gameplay was to fit the story, I think they could've just changed that aspect of the story. It was erroneous to begin with, as has been said, and the gameplay was changed in the later games to amend the error. So this whole thing seems like a major case of story getting in the way of good gameplay—and don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't value a good story. I just don't prefer it in the case of MegaMan, and I rarely prioritize story over actual gameplay.
That being said I am in the process of planning a fan-fiction that actually proceeds X5 from an alternate timeline, and it is very heavy on plot. And it is pretty much everything you would probably NOT want in a MegaMan X game (which is why it's a fan-fiction). (Also don't judge me, haha. I just couldn't get the story idea out of my head. I've been holding it back for years and now the plot keeps tying loose ends together magically in new ways.)
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as much I love X4, I can't help but wonder what the other character was doing throughout the entire game.
X4 is confusing... (http://downtime.stage-select.com/archive/048.jpg)
(Downtime (http://downtime.stage-select.com/archive.shtml))
But yeah, that's the big story contradiction we wound up with in X5. X4 in itself is made so that one hero or the other takes care of things alone, yet the future storyline clearly takes both scenarios into account.
thats what we mean when we say "Zero" was supposed to be X. the design was supposed to be X.
Well, "supposed to" implies that Inafune was in charge, which he wasn't. But, yeah, more or less. The name "X" would have gone to whatever design was chosen. I don't think that was decided when they were actually doing the designs, though, as Inafune simply uses the term "new MegaMan" in MMXOCW.
While Inafune personally envisioned Zero as the "new MegaMan", he knew all along that he'd be submitting it to his boss as a sub-character. It allowed him more freedom, creating an original design and an overall "darker" hero type, without others (his boss in particular) criticizing it for not fitting the "MegaMan" image. Hence, Inafune submitted Kaji's "new MegaMan" (which is what Inafune told him he'd be drawing from the start) to his boss as the main character.
Noteworthy here is that the whole "Zero was Inafune's new MegaMan, but wasn't very MegaManly" thing refers to personality as well, not merely appearance. Inafune refers to a "hardcore" personality for Zero versus the "nice guy image" which the new MegaMan would inevitably be stuck with a lot within the pages of MMXOCW.
Basically, I see the whole thing as this: When they were making the X-series, Inafune would have liked to make a game with the general atmosphere of the Zero-series.
hoo boy, Hypershell's gonna have a field day here. 8D
I can understand what you mean, but separating their stories completely is not the answer either. If anything, what X5 and 6 did. both playable in the same story, just you only pick one character. Separating them is a bad idea because the story states that they are good as a team. they are the best of partners, as Zero puts it in Zero 1. So giving them completely separate story lines in a game really contradicts that.
My issues with taking the hero solo are more story-driven than gameplay-driven; many of my thoughts mirror what you posted.
That said, yeah, I *LIKE* the Scramble Change. But I understand how some would consider that too easy. Thing is, the main series kinda treats it like a tack-on (albeit necessary due to the "2 out of 3" character selection). Xtreme2, changing between your ONLY two characters, often plays off of their individual strengths and the benefits of teamwork between them. The second fortress boss and Sigma's final form are ideal examples. You can also use Zero to "sequence break" the power-ups with X and better take advantage of the power-up system (assuming one has no attachment to Hadouken/Shoryuken, anyway), meanwhile X contributes greatly when you come to the occasional stage enemy at a difficult attack angle. There is a strong benefit to tag-teaming with them, and yet it is never an outright necessity (Sigma less so, though IIRC you can simply wait for him to switch); an excellent balance.
Another idea would be to introduce the duo in a 2-player simultaneous game.
YES!!!
Seriously, how many of us HAVEN'T been fantasizing about that for damn near the entire series? Pre-release translation errors with both X7 (double hero) and X8 (double attack) didn't help any.
Better yet, do this with an X4 remake, that way we'd resolve the above issue.
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I believe that if Zero became the lead, then both the name and character would be different from X's, and closer to the Zero that we know; they just can't use the X's name and character for a design such as Zero.
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Do you think it would be closer to the Zero games?
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Honestly saying guys... both X and Zero are pretty shallow characters.
In fact... most of the characters in the series are shallow. The only exception being the EXE/RnR and DASH series, where they get a chance to be not so shallow because of all the BLAH BLAH in their games.
Oh, and some charas from Zero series.
But other than that... the characters (including our dynamic duo) are pretty boring, and if not for them being cool robots who [tornado fang] up each other, I can guarantee no one would be so interested in them.
Then there's the "plot"... LOL!
(Keep in mind I'm pretty friggin' tired right now, so I might be babbling nonsense... or not. We'll see.)
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where they get a chance to be not so shallow because of all the BLAH BLAH in their games.
The amount of talking a character does is not equal to the amount of depth a character has.
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(Keep in mind I'm pretty friggin' tired right now, so I might be babbling nonsense... or not. We'll see.)
you indeed are.
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Oh come on. You guys can't seriously think that X or Zero have any REAL depth, right?
I mean, that's just stupid. Through most of the X series they stay THE [tornado fang]ing SAME (and don't even start by saying that Iris' death was a character development for Zero, since in the next games it's ALMOST entirely forgotten and our red slasher acts as usual).
The thing is, X series "plot" [tornado fang]ing sucks. I mean, the obvious thing with abandoning characters and plot points and [parasitic bomb].
It's just an incoherent mess, in which fans are trying to find things that aren't there. Simple.
Characters with real depth change over time, they do not stay the same hollow bag of stereotypes.
Sure, EXE/RnR/ or even DASH aren't the BEST examples of great character development, but many of them do change between one game and the rest. I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE FROM RnR JUST TO [acid burst] YOU OFF.
Remember Geo/Subaru? What a whiny emo [sonic slicer] he was in the first game? Well, he slowly changed through all the games. Altough it was still pretty kiddie [parasitic bomb], it was (more or less) REAL character development (therefore his character has DEPTH).
Now let's look at X, starting from the first game.
He starts out as a nice guy who has a tough guy partner (Zero)... and ends with a nice guy with a tough guy partner and a boytoy.
Now, don't get me started on X7 and its "LOL I HATE FIGHTING NOW FOR SOME REASON I PREFER TALKING OWAIT I CHANGED MY MIND I WILL [tornado fang] YOU UP NAO".
And umm... yeah.
In Zero series he actually gets some depth. I'm talking about the whole "all fighting is tiring. I don't give a crap about anything anymore.
CONCLUSION:
X and Zero (or any other X series charas for that matter) do not posses too much character depth.
Thank you for wasting you time. Have a nice day.
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Depth does not equate to simply "character development". You're sorely forgetting "character exposition." In a short narrative such character exposition is much more important than character development, whereas in a longer narrative development and exposition go hand in hand.
The X-series is ultimately limited by its format as a platforming game series, defining it as multiple short narratives, with a status qua that cannot be easily upset. However, throughout the X-series X and Zero were given incredible exposition; defining them not only as characters, but also as a team. The two of them were placed in many different scenarios by many creative minds, lending us insight into their characters, even though character development was largely forsaken.
In contrast, SSR has a much longer narrative. In the important story sequences this allowed the narrative, at least the first title, to put quite a heavy focus on character development. After completing the game I was definitely pleasantly surprised with how well the main cast was fleshed out, but I did feel that they did not use the format to its fullest; there were simply far too many filler scenarios, making the narrative simply take way too long to get to where it needed to be. That is what I mean when I say: "the amount of talking a character does is not equal to the amount of depth a character has."
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Zero changes quite a bit as well. X-X4, he was just a tough guy with a friendly streak.
After Iris' death, and what happened in X5, and its revolvement around him, he has grown visibly more cold and jaded. Hell, he even stopped giving the thumbs up after X5. in X8, he is reluctant to acknowledge Layer's feelings towards him, and in Command Mission is even colder, unwilling to accept or trust strangers when he is betrayed by Shadow.
His innate fear of himself and the things that happen around him, not to mention after fighting with his nightmare of himself, Omega, is what leads to his eventual second seal, to "prevent the blood stained history from repeating itself". He becomes increasingly cold and jaded, to hide his true feelings of anger towards those that would use him, and fear- of what he is and what he could become.
X himself, has gone from a conflicted pacifist B-Rank hunter unable to "pull the trigger" when it comes time for decisive action, to tougher along the way, and after coming to a head with his pacifism and aversion to violence as a solution,(X7) he is able to take action when it needs to be taken. And by Command Mission, has even earned his rightful rank of S Class. Also seemingly not conflicted at all, not hesitating when he has to take action.
Axl has only been around for 3 games, therefore so far, his character still needs fleshing out. Mainly, his past could use explaining.
The characters of X and Zero are also further strengthened by their bond. The way they support each other. X gets his support from Zero, and Zero gets his anchor to sanity, with X. the light to his dark. X balances out Zero's issues, while Zero himself balances out X's hesitation and pacifism.
And nowadays, Axl seems to be filling the role of lightening up the often dour mood in situations. He balances out BOTH of their "darks" with his optimism and bright attitude. When Zero broods over Sigma and X curses the perpetual violence, Axl instead offers a lighter view, he has no problems like Zero, or strong feelings against fighting, like X. he sees it as it is. Him versus the Mavericks.
"And just the thought of wiping the floor with those Mavericks makes his trigger finger itch!"
(and mind you, when Alia scolds him for that, X instead accepts that Axl is right, and that they have to do what they have to do)
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Hell, he even stopped giving the thumbs up after X5.
Soul Eraser disagrees. And the thumbs up only appeared in one game.
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Thumbs up was X4 and 5. :B But true. Still though from what weve seen, his personality gopt colder and more distant after X4.
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Didn't Soul Eraser take place before X4?
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Zan's point is that it did and he didnt do a thumbs up in it.
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Zero must've had a lot less frames in Xtreme 2, to be fair.
Anyway,
I took the X and Zero story a lot more seriously when I was younger. It's interesting to read through this conversation and see some of that actually validated. I never really approved of the storytelling method, but I guess I just grew up and told myself, "It's a MegaMan game, and the gaming element is more important than the story." I've kept seeing the ideas of the story between the lines, however, and it inspires creativity.
I also have quite an attachment to X and Zero. I could go on about the story of the games, and how I wish they did this or that, but the fact that I could be drawn in like that with so little to go by has to say something about what's there in terms of quality. It seems really unfortunate that the series continued in the way that it had.
BTW one thing I liked about X8 was the new voice actors brought in. I liked all of them, if I recall. Even Axl's. And I'm not a friend of Axl.
If the Maverick Hunter remakes continued, I'd have been fairly content.
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Zero must've had a lot less frames in Xtreme 2, to be fair.
he did, but X himself still had a victory pose.
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Thumbs up was X4 and 5. :B But true. Still though from what weve seen, his personality gopt colder and more distant after X4.
It's been a while since I played X5, but that'd be all the more reason not to relate it to Iris.
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Gotta give Zan that one. Although I too consider Zero's character to have changed a bit since Iris's death, the thumbs-up is not a sign of that.
What I noticed isn't so much Zero's "friendly streak" (hard to observe given the lack of narrative, though looking at Xtreme2 and MHX I can see Flame's point), but rather how Zero approaches combat. In X4 and prior he has a tendency to shoot/slash first and talk later (vs Gareth, vs Colonel at Memorial Hall, and vs Frost Walrus are a few examples), clearly impatient with the enemy's chatter. X5 onward, he's not quite as rash. He lets the enemy ramble all they want, even if he still thinks that what they're saying is garbage. Then of course there's the Zero series, which in its later entries dives into exactly what Zero is fighting for.
Flame nailed it on the X/Zero bond, as well. It's especially noticeable in X8 and Command Mission, how Zero (and Axl in the earlier) keeps X's head on straight, while X's big heart helps to keep Zero from going over the edge in XCM.
And if you believe X to have no character development, you have not watched The Day Of Sigma. That simple. It's where X got a smack in the face with how people you thought you could look up to can wind up really sick, and just how high a price he may have to pay for his inaction at the wrong time. Wonder why he's so less merciful when he confronts Sigma than at any other point in any other game? That's why. X6 takes us a step further and hardens him up a bit, probably in no small part due to his best friend disappearing while the entire planet is in critical shape. While previous games had shown him as hesitant, in X6 he is all business, and yet still retains his compassion once all is said and done.
And nobody's mentioned her, but for X-series character growth, I have to bring up Alia. Seriously, she was the most boring character I could imagine in X5. Married to her work, master of the obvious, and living life by dry facts and no gut instinct. In X6, that changed. A LOT. She meets a ghost from her past while humanity's in a tight spot, and she's been a more heartfelt character for it ever since. Later games don't center on her past so much, but even so, she comes off as more friendly/supportive, and less of the "Ms. Voice" that she was in X5.
He starts out as a nice guy who has a tough guy partner (Zero)... and ends with a nice guy with a tough guy partner and a boytoy.
In what way are "nice guy" and "tough guy" such specific characteristics that one who falls into such a category is not considered to have "grown" until they have become something else entirely? Failure.
Zan nailed it above on format, as well. It's true that much of what we see in characters is reading between the lines, not explicitly fleshed out in-game as much as we'd like, but that's the nature of the beast when you're dealing with a platformer. There are a bazillion games out there with deeper stories than MMX, but they're generally of different genres. I think, as platformers go, X is pretty strong. Zero and ZX even more so.