Zelda FAQ: Let´s summerize everything from OoT till TP.

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Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #25 on: January 11, 2009, 03:12:29 AM
Man, talk about a Triforce of Confusion.  I admire you guys for trying to make sense out of this.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #26 on: January 11, 2009, 03:16:11 AM
I'm aware of that, but that should be where the Palace of the Four Sword comes in. Ganon ends up in the Sacred Realm, and so does the Four Sword. That can't be unrelated.
Which, again, assumes that the Palace of the Four Sword appearing within the Pyramid of Power is canonically valid, despite it being an extra from after the game's storyline is already beaten.

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Followed by Aonuma saying the story changed then, so who knows if it still holds true. It could be akin to TP no longer being post WW despite early notions.
Those notions were not two weeks prior to release.  The game is for all intents and purposes done by that point, it's manufacturing/shipping time.  Aonuma said that the story changed during development.

I'm not saying with certainty that FSA is prior to OoT, mind you, it's naive to assume that whatever Zelda timeline exists is not subject to a rewrite.  I'm just saying it's still a valid possibility.  To say that FSA for certain leads into LttP is an overstatement.  I've played the game in full, and yes the references kinda smack you in the face, but it's hard to separate the story-relevant from the design/thematic.  FSA Ganon is given no backstory beyond his search for the trident, and his condition in the ending doesn't directly tie to any other game.

One similarity that is definitely thematic is the Royal Gems, that is precious stones being guarded by the knights of Hyrule.  This is a reference to the Pendant of Courage said to have been guarded by the Knights of Hyrule "generations ago" who were nearly wiped out during the sealing war (Knights took a critical hit in FSA).  However, there are four Gems, whereas there are only three Pendants.  And the Pendants being linked to the Master Sword suggests a more likely story-wise link with the OoT Spiritual Stones.

Then there's the Moon Pearl/Dark World.  There's one Moon Pearl in LttP; there are tons in FSA.  Likewise, FSA's Moon Pearls are keys to a "Dark World", but the LttP Dark World is actually the Sacred Realm (or "Golden Land", that is the home of the Triforce), and it does not become the Dark World until after Ganon gets his hands on the Triforce.  Yet the FSA Dark World maintains the same "shadow world" connection with Hyrule that LttP's Dark World does.

Also, placing FSA after Wind Waker makes it an aberration in that it would be the ONLY post-WW game to feature the Gerudo.  They have only previously appeared in OoT and MM.

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Offline Zan

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Reply #27 on: January 11, 2009, 03:43:07 AM
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Also, FSA if after Wind Waker is an aberration in that it is the ONLY game besides OoT and MM to feature the Gerudo.

Well... Twinrova is fairly persistent, being in Oracle and all. There's also some PH characters that seem linked to the Gerudo... I'd say that it'd be even odder if FSA and OoT Gerudo were the same, the King of Darkness coming twice from the Gerudo.. WW's world reset is a convenient means to have the Gerudo re-establish themselves in favorable light, until the reappearance of Ganon once again drives them to extinction.

Sure, FSA pre OoT might be doable, but it requires quite a few stretches, two Ganon at once being amongst the biggest of stretches. Like I said, it was weird enough when Zelda did it...

Then with MC, which also might or might not be pre OoT also... aside from Vaati's legend, how far back does the Four Sword legends go? Does the Picori Blade predate the Master Sword? The Four Sword Palace seems to indicate it's not the same blade, afterall. Who knows which of those two has the "oldest tale" >.>



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #28 on: January 11, 2009, 04:11:08 AM
As far as I'm aware no game that could be argued to be pre-OoT features the Master Sword.  It's stated to have been forged (and/or infused with the power to repel evil) by the pre-OoT Sages, but the actual event has never been covered by any game that I'm aware.

For the Gerudo re-establishing themselves, you have to ask why they're not in WW or PH.  I don't really see what's so odd about the king of darkness coming from them twice.  Most/all of the Links/Zeldas share a blood relation.  And I don't see any Ganon getting down with the ladies after they've started their world conquest career (well, there is the Twinrova, but for the sake of all our souls I dare not think about it).

Sure, FSA pre OoT might be doable, but it requires quite a few stretches, two Ganon at once being amongst the biggest of stretches. Like I said, it was weird enough when Zelda did it...
Weird, but she did it.

Besides, two simultaneous Ganons isn't required.  Merely a pre-OoT Ganon is.  Since there's so many "missing links" regardless, FSA Ganon could be killed prior and the blue pig/trident thing dismissed as a thematic deal.  Before FSA, there was no real significance to Ganon's trident in the storyline.  It was merely a recurring thing, much like Ganondorf carrying a sword from SSB Melee/GCN tech demos up until the present.

For that matter, who's to say the FSA Ganon is immortal?  Lacking the Triforce of Power and all, the responsibility for sustaining him falls solely on his magical trident.

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Offline Gaia

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Reply #29 on: January 11, 2009, 04:11:54 AM
....

So, anybody man enough to figure out where Tingle's game fits in?..

There's this thing called a Miniature Plot you know, But then.. where does the CD-i Zeldas fit in...?

Talk about uber godmodding timeline changers, oh boy!

Workshop/DA/YT/Photobucket なにかんがえてるの!?
So its about ass now huh? EVEN THE ASS HAS 'EXCEEDED'!

One mention of LEGENDS and everyone goes batshit.  :\

Yep, every time when someone mentions that game people get energized for an apparent reason whatsoever. It's like this everywhere else, trust me.

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Offline Hypershell

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Reply #30 on: January 11, 2009, 04:13:00 AM
Probably Nintendo's shredder.  Just because they were licensed doesn't mean the owner has any interest in preserving them.

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Reply #31 on: January 11, 2009, 04:16:19 AM
Probably Nintendo's shredder.  Just because they were licensed doesn't mean the owner has any interest in preserving them.

I'm pretty sure it's called a Shredded Plot, probably like Tingle's game.

Workshop/DA/YT/Photobucket なにかんがえてるの!?
So its about ass now huh? EVEN THE ASS HAS 'EXCEEDED'!

One mention of LEGENDS and everyone goes batshit.  :\

Yep, every time when someone mentions that game people get energized for an apparent reason whatsoever. It's like this everywhere else, trust me.

It got really messy to find my sprite and comic topic, so it's in my sig.


Aresian

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Reply #32 on: January 11, 2009, 04:21:01 AM
Time to End Game.

Legend of Zelda is just one large incestuous set of adventures between the LinkxGanonxZelda family.

LOTSA incest.



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #33 on: January 11, 2009, 04:24:54 AM
What about Malon?



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #34 on: January 11, 2009, 04:52:31 AM
If you believe that in-breeding leads to one's alternate-reality selves being their own sisters (and I can think of no better explanation), then yeah.  Malon's pretty messed up.

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Reply #35 on: January 11, 2009, 05:09:42 AM
If you believe that in-breeding leads to one's alternate-reality selves being their own sisters (and I can think of no better explanation), then yeah.  Malon's pretty messed up.

This.



Offline Jericho

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Reply #36 on: January 11, 2009, 05:38:50 AM
Sweet mother of God, you know there's nothing to talk about when trying to piece together the Zelda time line becomes a heated debate. XD



Offline Solar

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Reply #37 on: January 11, 2009, 06:04:05 AM
It needs to be said. Zelda timeline, serious business.

I say that if you want to have everything Zelda in a timeline, it look something like this. Feel free to correct me >.>

Minish Cap > Ocarina of Time > Majora's Mask > Twilight Princess

Minish Cap > Ocarina of Time > Wind Waker > Phantom Hourglass > Four Swords > Four Swords Adventure > A Link to the Past > Link's Awakening > Zelda 1 > TV show > Faces of Evil/Wand of Gamelon > Adventure of Link > Oracle of Ages/Season

-I was gonna place the oracles before Zelda 1, but then I remembered the resurrection part and thought that it could work better after AoL. I can't explain how Twinrova is there though.
-TV show and CDi games are there because I did say everything Zelda afterall XD
-Tingle's game is not really a Zelda game, that's why it's not there.


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Aresian

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Reply #38 on: January 11, 2009, 07:35:00 AM
It's settled to just assume it's one large incestuously messed up tree.

Also. CDi, incest gone wrong.

Don't try to piece together a "timeline" because it all leads back to one thing.

The Three Sexy Bitches.



Offline Akamaru

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Reply #39 on: January 11, 2009, 07:36:12 AM
Man, talk about a Triforce of Confusion.  I admire you guys for trying to make sense out of this.
Thats why I sum it up like this: alternate universes. It never fails.


When was the last time I poked you guys...


Offline Zan

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Reply #40 on: January 11, 2009, 11:46:32 AM
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As far as I'm aware no game that could be argued to be pre-OoT features the Master Sword.  It's stated to have been forged (and/or infused with the power to repel evil) by the pre-OoT Sages, but the actual event has never been covered by any game that I'm aware.

How far back do these pre-OoT sages go? Even in OoT the Master Sword sleeps inside of the Temple of Time. And in my recent replay through OoT I got the distinct impression there was indeed a previous hero of time.

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you have to ask why they're not in WW or PH. 

Well, Ganon did do some massive invasion, the hero of time did not come and the world flooded. As said, there are a few characters that resemble Gerudo in PH. Not to mention that Ganon's failure, as hinted by TP not having the Gerudo, would lead to the Gerudo's disappearance. It's a mystery where they went, but some we have no exact confirmation of all of them being gone, they could re-establish themselves.

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I don't really see what's so odd about the king of darkness coming from them twice.

Him coming twice from the Gerudo isn't odd, it's just that in neither case, there's a recollection of the former. Which there would have to be if the Gerudo never vanished between FSA<>OoT. The fact that they gave birth to the King of Darkness, twice, and with Twinrova being the mother still... you'd think they'd remember... So, a bit of separation between FSA and OoT is quite mandatory.

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For that matter, who's to say the FSA Ganon is immortal?  Lacking the Triforce of Power and all, the responsibility for sustaining him falls solely on his magical trident.

If he indeed made his way into the Sacred Realm, by however the Four Sword got there, there's the full Triforce right there. But, was there ever anything that got attributed to Ganon's immortality in the first place?

Anyway, I think with how the Zelda timeline goes right now, it is very much matters of trying to fill as many gaps as currently possible. With Ganon dead as of WW, and revived as of FSA, it's very much a matter of convenience and the path of least resistance. Even though it doesn't have to go that way.

Setting up a Zelda timeline right now wouldn't be a matter of placing them all in linear order with a branch, but rather, figure out the 'region' in which a game takes place, and note the uncertainties.

Thus...

OoT>MM>TP>LCT
OoT>WW>PH>LttP>AST>LoZ>AoL>Oracle
MC>FS>FSA>LttP>AST>LoZ>AoL>Oracle

with either LttP>LA||AST> or Oracle>LA. AST being pseudo-canon, what it implicates about Ganon, Link and Zelda would be correct after the wish to the Triforce changing the setting to lead toward LoZ, but the actual events of AST, with it's Satellaview hero, are very questionable.

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-Tingle's game is not really a Zelda game, that's why it's not there.

But Tingle is a character in the Zelda universe, being around as early as MM and MC.



Offline Solar

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Reply #41 on: January 11, 2009, 07:09:28 PM
Sure, Tingle is a Zelda character, but his game has nothing to do with the rest of the series, and if for some reason you wanted to include it in the timeline, it just fits everywhere I guess.


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Offline Hypershell

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Reply #42 on: January 11, 2009, 07:52:23 PM
How far back do these pre-OoT sages go? Even in OoT the Master Sword sleeps inside of the Temple of Time. And in my recent replay through OoT I got the distinct impression there was indeed a previous hero of time.
SSB Brawl notes the Sages forging the Master Sword in the TP Sage trophy.  Wind Waker also establishes a connection between the Sages and the Master Sword's power to repel evil.  So the Sages go at least as far back as the Master Sword does, but since we don't know how far that is, it's a giant question mark.  The Master Sword seems to be fairly well-known even in OoT, though, seeings how Navi recognizes it.

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Ganon's failure, as hinted by TP not having the Gerudo, would lead to the Gerudo's disappearance. It's a mystery where they went, but some we have no exact confirmation of all of them being gone, they could re-establish themselves.
The Gerudo Desert in Twilight Princess is the location of the Arbiter's Grounds, where the Mirror of Twilight is kept.  The Sages also reside there, and of course this is the same area where Ganondorf's execution was to be held.  So, presumably, the Gerudo cleared out, and the royal family's reach extended there over the course of the OoT generation, before Ganondorf was executed.  Whether they left of their own accord or were removed forcibly isn't known, but considering what the Mirror of Twilight was there for, it's likely that if any Gerudo were captured, they were assimilated into the Twili.

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Him coming twice from the Gerudo isn't odd, it's just that in neither case, there's a recollection of the former. Which there would have to be if the Gerudo never vanished between FSA<>OoT. The fact that they gave birth to the King of Darkness, twice, and with Twinrova being the mother still... you'd think they'd remember...

What do the Twinrova possibly have to do with FSA?  They appear only in OoT, MM, and Oracles.  And in Majora they're actually friendly (granted that's Termina and not Hyrule).

Considering the Gerudo only have one male to them born every century, your argument could be pretty well applied no matter which one comes first.  Furthermore, the FSA Ganon isn't all that infamous.  The Gerudo hate him for violating their laws and entering the forbidden pyramid, but what happened to him after that isn't general knowledge.  Ganon doesn't make his presence known until after Vaati is defeated, very near the end of the game.  Hyrule as a whole isn't aware of what happened the way they are in OoT.

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If he indeed made his way into the Sacred Realm, by however the Four Sword got there, there's the full Triforce right there.
But this is why the lack of a Triforce mention in FSA would be so odd in the first place.  The ONLY way FSA is linked to the Sacred Realm is if the Four Sword Sanctuary, where Vaati and later Ganon are sealed, is part of it.  But if that's the case, and Ganon had access to it all this time (shadow Link emerges from there), why stop at releasing Vaati?  It doesn't make any sense.

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With Ganon dead as of WW, and revived as of FSA, it's very much a matter of convenience and the path of least resistance.
That's just it, Ganon being revived in FSA is fanon.  There IS no revival mentioned in the game.  There is nothing to indicate that FSA Ganon performed any acts of evil before he entered the forbidden Gerudo pyramid, the "ancient demon" likely refers to the power of the trident, which is the focus of Ganon's power in FSA anyway.

One of the six maidens dismisses the name "Ganondorf" as being merely a desert nomad, unable to understand why forest monsters would worship him.  They don't recognize the shorter name "Ganon" at all.  Clearly, the FSA Ganondorf has not been previously established as the king of darkness.  So the argument of FSA Ganondorf being a revival of a previous Ganondorf is extremely weak, if even the maidens don't know him.  To add to this, the Gerudo conversations indicate that the theft of the trident, the furthest back "evil act" to be associated with FSA Ganon, is recent.  Some of them claim to not know what his "plans", present-tense, are.  Others believe him to have died failing to reach the pyramid.  The road to the desert pyramid was blocked following Ganondorf's intrusion, and you have to speak to the guards in order to pass.

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Offline Align

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Reply #43 on: January 11, 2009, 08:26:26 PM
Whether they left of their own accord or were removed forcibly isn't known, but considering what the Mirror of Twilight was there for, it's likely that if any Gerudo were captured, they were assimilated into the Twili.
Hmm, maybe this is why Midna is sort of sexy while the other Twilis are blobs.



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Reply #44 on: January 11, 2009, 08:29:59 PM
To be fair, I'm not sure if any of the other Twili seen were female.  That and they were all transformed back from Shadow Beasts, they seem to still be "out of it".  Since the transformation to Shadow Beast was a gradual shift, it's easily possible that the transformation back takes time to complete as well.

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Reply #45 on: January 11, 2009, 08:48:34 PM
>_> Oh [parasitic bomb]. OK, whoever started this opened a door that cannot but shut until the day is done.

Oh well... Zan vs Hypershell. HEAVEN OR HELL!

FIGHT!!!



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Reply #46 on: January 11, 2009, 09:18:32 PM
*smacks Aresian with his magical talking fish*

How come I have to be hell?!

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Reply #47 on: January 11, 2009, 09:53:24 PM
ITT: People think too much.
>_> Oh [parasitic bomb]. OK, whoever started this opened a door that cannot but shut until the day is done.

Oh well... Zan vs Hypershell. HEAVEN OR HELL!

FIGHT!!!
it's LET'S ROCK.