Author Topic: Bridging the gap. The Classic to X interim. What do we know?  (Read 5151 times)

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Offline Flame

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Re: Bridging the gap. The Classic to X interim. What do we know?
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2014, 03:27:14 AM »
I thought Endgame was awesome.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Protoman Blues

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Re: Bridging the gap. The Classic to X interim. What do we know?
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2014, 03:34:01 AM »
I pretty much dislike anything involving the Borg Queen.

Offline Blue Valkyrie

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Re: Bridging the gap. The Classic to X interim. What do we know?
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2014, 03:40:22 AM »
Endgame always felt like bad fan fiction to me honestly, bat mobile armor? Really?  Year of Hell was honestly the series strongest two episodes, too bad they copped out with the reset button.

I didn't mind the Borg queen in First Contact (another good time travel story  8D ) but then again the Borg were fairly intimidating in that rather what ever the hell voyager did to them.

Offline Protoman Blues

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Re: Bridging the gap. The Classic to X interim. What do we know?
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2014, 03:42:10 AM »
While I like First Contact as an action movie, I think it's an awful Time Travel story. Plus I hated the Borg Queen in that as well. I've never liked her or the concept of her.

Offline Blue Valkyrie

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Re: Bridging the gap. The Classic to X interim. What do we know?
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2014, 03:59:50 AM »
Therese nothing really wrong with it's premise as a time travel story I agree though that no Borg queen is better than a Borg queen but that was her best story by far. Like most forces of nature they lose their teeth if you try to add elements to humanize them.

Offline Protoman Blues

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Re: Bridging the gap. The Classic to X interim. What do we know?
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2014, 04:15:58 AM »
Therese nothing really wrong with it's premise as a time travel story I agree though that no Borg queen is better than a Borg queen but that was her best story by far. Like most forces of nature they lose their teeth if you try to add elements to humanize them.

If the Borg can just Time Travel like it's going out of style, then there's absolutely no stopping them.

Offline Blue Valkyrie

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Re: Bridging the gap. The Classic to X interim. What do we know?
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2014, 04:28:50 AM »
Good point, didn't think of that.  -AC Oh well, still a good movie.

Offline Protoman Blues

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Re: Bridging the gap. The Classic to X interim. What do we know?
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2014, 04:45:39 AM »
I mean, if the Borg had simply travelled back in time in the Delta Quadrant, away from Earth, the heart of Starfleet, their plan succeeds. Or if they send 1 or 2 more Cubes.

And there is nothing preventing them from trying again.

Offline Zan

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Re: Bridging the gap. The Classic to X interim. What do we know?
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2014, 03:22:40 PM »
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Even the project being the virus at all is something that we only infer.  It is something that fits, that does not make it a proven fact.

I did write "presumably" in the original post.

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Fortenium is an object, solar/atomic refer to processes.

True, although we have no source stating that Zero runs on anything else than standard fuels for a standard solar/atomic generator. His "unknown power" lies concealed by mysterious facets of his design that defy traditional analysis.

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Zero's power source is not Fortenium, this is true, but Fortenium is relevant to the discovery of whatever does power Zero.  Bass has been tied to many things, including to some degree emotion and heart, but energy life forms aren't one of them.

As I mentioned before, that scene presents several ideas at once:
1) Wily dislikes Forte's disobedience and regrets creating him.
2) Currently Fortenium is the strongest energy on Earth, but that's not for long. Wily learned from the accident that made Forte and Fortenium.
3) Wily created a new type of robot with a far superior power level. It's not yet complete. It's also much more than just a simple robot.

These points hold the following implications:
1) Wily will do anything in his power to avoid another disobedient robot. This is however exactly what Zero turned out to be prior to correction by the Sigma Virus.

2) An energy that exceeds Fortenium does not yet exist. It's a hypothetical, a concept. The Alien Energy at the forefront of Power Fighters' plot is thereby weaker than Fortenium. This new energy still needs to go through the many uncertain stages of research and development. Despite this, Wily has complete confidence in Zero's design. This time it won't be an accidental creation.

3) Wily clearly highlights the technical complexity of Zero's design. The exact specifics of his systems are known only to Wily. Other than him, Sigma has the greatest understanding of these secrets.

---Sigma: I met an old man who knows a lot about you... He told me an interesting story. He told me that you are something far greater than what you appear to be... On his advice, I scattered the Virus so that it could infiltrate you, but you haven't shown any signs of waking up...

---Zero: I won't become a Maverick! I won't yield to your pitiful virus!

---Sigma: Hee hee hee. You don't seem to understand. I'm not talking about becoming a Maverick. You felt it, didn't you. You felt a tremendous power fill your body... A power from the Virus. That is because the Virus purifies your body.


You may doubt Sigma's words, but he's actually correct in his assessment. Zero, who was once an irregular, won't become an irregular from the infection (ZERO Collection timeline). Thereby, power comes from the virus. The virus purifies his body. Zero's greatest level of strength comes from contact with the subspecies of a virus Wily created at least two whole games after Power Fighters.

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My main shpiel is that while the virus certainly serves to draw tremendous power from Zero, I do not believe that Zero requires it to overpower Bass.

Yes, default Zero overpowers Forte, but so too does default RockmanX (and the combat Repliroids of 21XX).
Neither "the strongest energy" and "Limitless Potential" factor into this equation. As I see it, Forte mimics Rockman, Zero and X do not. By raw specs alone, they are superior to a dated design powered by Fortenium. Their "unknown power" of unanalyzable mystery only serves to completely topple the scales.

Offline Hypershell

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Re: Bridging the gap. The Classic to X interim. What do we know?
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2014, 11:14:07 PM »
True, although we have no source stating that Zero runs on anything else than standard fuels for a standard solar/atomic generator. His "unknown power" lies concealed by mysterious facets of his design that defy traditional analysis.
We don't even know what "standard fuel" is for Reploids, let alone whether or not Zero's fuel is one of the aspects of his body that screw with attempted analysis.

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3) Wily clearly highlights the technical complexity of Zero's design. The exact specifics of his systems are known only to Wily. Other than him, Sigma has the greatest understanding of these secrets.

---Sigma: I met an old man who knows a lot about you... He told me an interesting story. He told me that you are something far greater than what you appear to be... On his advice, I scattered the Virus so that it could infiltrate you, but you haven't shown any signs of waking up...

---Zero: I won't become a Maverick! I won't yield to your pitiful virus!

---Sigma: Hee hee hee. You don't seem to understand. I'm not talking about becoming a Maverick. You felt it, didn't you. You felt a tremendous power fill your body... A power from the Virus. That is because the Virus purifies your body.


You may doubt Sigma's words, but he's actually correct in his assessment. Zero, who was once an irregular, won't become an irregular from the infection (ZERO Collection timeline). Thereby, power comes from the virus. The virus purifies his body. Zero's greatest level of strength comes from contact with the subspecies of a virus Wily created at least two whole games after Power Fighters.
I don't doubt them, Sigma's words are true regardless, what changes is only the point of view.  The virus is the cause, Awakened Zero is the result, that is not in question.  What's fuzzy is how the process works, whether the cause is direct or indirect.  And, whether or not there are alternative methods of tapping Zero's unknown potential.

The virus is the obvious stimulus, but if it and not Zero is the very source of the power, then it downgrades Zero's "special" status, something of which neither Sigma nor Wily have any doubt:

"Tell me... Which one of you is stronger, X or Zero?  ...  Let me tell you about an old man I met... He told me that you are the strongest in the universe..."

I maintain that the virus, while certainly the most straightforward route of tapping what lies beneath Zero's surface, is not Zero's power source in and of itself for reasons outlined in my first post:  We have four games detailing the "terrifying combat abilities" of a confirmed virus-less and initially amnesiac Zero, including him conquering his original body infused with an energy life form born of Sigma Virus research.  Further, Zero's "unique" power being tied exclusively to the virus clashes with X's use of it in X6 (to a lesser degree, X3 and the Mega Missions card series).  Project X Zone very clearly depicts Zero responding to emotional stress, akin to what we saw from X in The Day of Sigma, and having to conquer a near personality change before unlocking a new ability.

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Offline Zan

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Re: Bridging the gap. The Classic to X interim. What do we know?
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2014, 04:38:13 AM »
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if it and not Zero is the very source of the power, then it downgrades Zero's "special" status

I must respectfully disagree.

No matter what, the ability to attain further power from the virus is Zero's alone. Even if the Sigma Virus is the new strongest energy Wily spoke of, that doesn't diminish Zero's default qualities in the slightest. His abilities (power, mobilty, skill, instinct and adaptability) are all formidable, extraordinary even, just not at the absolute peak of "strongest in the universe".

It's like a Forte without Fortenium: a sturdy and mobile design - very much Rockman's equal, never his superior. Fortenium serves to raise Forte's combat capabilities beyond the limitations of his specs, just as the Sigma Virus does for Zero. Let's not forget that Zero, for all intents and purposes, does not have Limitless Evolutionary Potential. What makes Zero "special" is not the same as X's.

Offline Slash Man

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Re: Bridging the gap. The Classic to X interim. What do we know?
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2014, 04:36:10 AM »
Honestly, the Classic series only got serious about plot around the time of Mega Man 7. Before that, it was all pretty lighthearted chapters done in a serial fashion. The X series, however, had a pretty serious plot from the beginning. As incompatible as they may seem, I think it is important to still consider them in the same universe. Good read, Zan.

Quint is still a big mystery. We were never given a definitive answer to his story after his defeat (but not death) at the hands of modern Mega Man. Regardless of the game's prevalence in the series, this is crucial, as it's the future of Mega Man himself. Either Capcom's forgotten about it, or they're waiting to spring a big one on us (not counting on it). Wily has made multiple copies of him (Mega Man V), and we should assume only a copy was destroyed in that instance.

The time machine itself is also something big that's barely expanded upon. While we can guess that it's reused for The Wily Wars, it's hard to imagine that Wily would only use it for just those two occasions. Presenting my own far-out theory, I'd say that old Wily could have possibly retired from his evil ways before passing on, while the current Wily is the one influencing the events of the X series through time travel behind the scenes.

Offline Hypershell

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Re: Bridging the gap. The Classic to X interim. What do we know?
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2014, 05:11:51 AM »
That's an interesting theory, but I don't see X-series Wily as having the same agenda as Classic-series Wily.  X-series Wily is all about the rivaly with Light/X on a more personal level, making absolutely no moves for any recognition or domination in any way.  He only seems to intervene directly when Zero's survival is at stake.



And hey, revisit a 3-month-old post, 'cuz why not?
I must respectfully disagree.

No matter what, the ability to attain further power from the virus is Zero's alone. Even if the Sigma Virus is the new strongest energy Wily spoke of, that doesn't diminish Zero's default qualities in the slightest. His abilities (power, mobilty, skill, instinct and adaptability) are all formidable, extraordinary even, just not at the absolute peak of "strongest in the universe".
Zero is OBVIOUSLY not the only Reploid to utilize the virus, since Sigma does so on a regular basis.  Their methods are vastly different, sure, but when Sigma can use the virus itself as a battle form such as in X2, how is that not a source of strength?

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It's like a Forte without Fortenium: a sturdy and mobile design - very much Rockman's equal, never his superior. Fortenium serves to raise Forte's combat capabilities beyond the limitations of his specs, just as the Sigma Virus does for Zero. Let's not forget that Zero, for all intents and purposes, does not have Limitless Evolutionary Potential. What makes Zero "special" is not the same as X's.
Poor analogy: Fortenium is not an outside source, it's a component of Bass's creation and the two have never been separated.  The results of doing so are purely speculation.

Omega throws another monkey-wrench into this: If the virus is the source of "the strongest in the universe", then his use of the Dark Elf creates a "virus vs. heart" situation when Zero faces Omega.  My issue is, that theory implies that the "special" nature of Zero's heart is by and large inferior to that of X.  So if X and Awakened Zero will fight each other to a standoff, by that logic, Zero should not be able to defeat Omega.

Then there's High Max.  No source of any kind suggests that he utilizes viral energy.  Yet he is created based on research of Zero's DNA, he can (at first, anyway) completely wall X, and as far as any analysis can tell, he pretty much surpasses any other Reploid of his generation.

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Offline Cherrykorock

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Re: Bridging the gap. The Classic to X interim. What do we know?
« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2014, 02:42:30 AM »
I suppose one way to look at the megaman/quint theory is a split timeline theory. Perhaps the second Wily acquires the time machine and uses it he creates an alternate timeline. One where megaman becomes quint and one where he doesn't. I'vve clearly been reading Bob and Georgefor way too long. I hate time travel.

Offline Flame

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Re: Bridging the gap. The Classic to X interim. What do we know?
« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2014, 06:48:06 AM »
Thats what i always assumed myself. By going to the future and creating Quint, by Mega Man fighting Quint, the timeline was altered so that in his future that does not happen. Wily would also not actually reform if he thought that his younger self would show up at his doorstep years in the future to double plot their shenanigans. (Case in point, he made Zero, so obviously he didn't)

Same for R-Shadow, as he taught Bass and Rock valuable lessons about themselves, and not just "bad future".
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Cherrykorock

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Re: Bridging the gap. The Classic to X interim. What do we know?
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2014, 03:40:58 AM »
Thats what i always assumed myself. By going to the future and creating Quint, by Mega Man fighting Quint, the timeline was altered so that in his future that does not happen. Wily would also not actually reform if he thought that his younger self would show up at his doorstep years in the future to double plot their shenanigans. (Case in point, he made Zero, so obviously he didn't)

Same for R-Shadow, as he taught Bass and Rock valuable lessons about themselves, and not just "bad future".
I like this thought.
Now this is totally random and makes zero sense (unless you're me) but I wonder if at some point Wily attempted to use it to go back in time to use his current knowledge of robots to beat Light in the robot race so to speak. And perhaps in doing so he altered the timeline, society viewing his robots as too dangerous stops him before he becomes a real threat somehow. Society drops robots in favor of PCs and networking thus creating the Battle Network timeline.

Just a random fan theory I just made thinking of possible stories created by divergent timelines.

Offline Zan

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Re: Bridging the gap. The Classic to X interim. What do we know?
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2014, 11:01:23 PM »
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Wily has made multiple copies of him (Mega Man V), and we should assume only a copy was destroyed in that instance.

Even if a copy was not destroyed, very few robots in classic have died permanently.

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That's an interesting theory, but I don't see X-series Wily as having the same agenda as Classic-series Wily.  X-series Wily is all about the rivaly with Light/X on a more personal level, making absolutely no moves for any recognition or domination in any way.  He only seems to intervene directly when Zero's survival is at stake.

That and we've been told the X-series has a dead Wily back by the virus.

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Zero is OBVIOUSLY not the only Reploid to utilize the virus, since Sigma does so on a regular basis.  Their methods are vastly different, sure, but when Sigma can use the virus itself as a battle form such as in X2, how is that not a source of strength?

Sigma is the virus, Zero is not.

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My issue is, that theory implies that the "special" nature of Zero's heart is by and large inferior to that of X.

X and Zero both have heart. Zero has higher base specs, X has Limitless Potential. Neither are the same as heart.

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by that logic, Zero should not be able to defeat Omega.

There's no doubt in my mind that regular Zero's performance against his awakened self would not have differed from X's.

Furthermore, Zero did not beat Omega alone. It almost required the ultimate sacrifice of three others.

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I wonder if at some point Wily attempted to use it to go back in time to use his current knowledge of robots to beat Light in the robot race so to speak.

He did in Megaworld.

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Then there's High Max.

Zero's DNA holds amazing promise, but the original remains superior. Neither Zero nor his copies have any form of Limitless Potential. To imply otherwise devalues X's growth throughout X6.

Offline Hypershell

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Re: Bridging the gap. The Classic to X interim. What do we know?
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2014, 06:56:40 AM »
It depends, you need to clarify what "limitless potential" refers to.  Plenty of fans take it to refer to combat ability, but there's more to it than that.  Both X and Zero are in a constant state of growth combat-wise and Zero is every bit X's equal in his ability to grow over the centuries.

As I see it, where X surpasses Zero is that his "limitless potential" provides the ability to advance the relationship between humans and robots.  This ties to his heart, his worrying, his empathy, etc.  Zero lacks this, and he himself knows it, as he points out in both X6 ("There's a superior Maverick Hunter.") and Z4 ("We're only Reploids designed for war. It's not our place to change the world.").

By the same token, Zero's strength over X is his single-mindedness.  Determination, tenacity, and ability to see through and/or ignore distractions (even Awakened Zero's mentality is simply an overly extreme case of this).  On his own, this has limited application outside of combat, but in support of someone like X, Zero can help them to keep their focus.

In battle, though, "the strongest in the universe", who is "something far greater than what you appear to be", can overcome any challenge just the same as "limitless potential" can.

Sigma is the virus, Zero is not.
Sigma was not born of the virus, he bonded with it as a matter of circumstance and proceeded to manipulate it from there.  Chop Register "is" the virus.  Shurikein "is" the virus.  Sigma is not.  Sigma is sustained by the virus.  Sigma uses the virus.  Sigma uses others through the virus.  But Sigma no more "is" the virus than Wily is.

Thats what i always assumed myself. By going to the future and creating Quint, by Mega Man fighting Quint, the timeline was altered so that in his future that does not happen. Wily would also not actually reform if he thought that his younger self would show up at his doorstep years in the future to double plot their shenanigans. (Case in point, he made Zero, so obviously he didn't)
Actually, I wouldn't be so quick to assume that.  Wily's reform is temporary anyway if he helped his younger self capture Rock.  His sharing space with Light at some point post-classic-series would go a ways to explaining the anomaly of Zero's buster parts being swappable for part of X's armor (not that there aren't plenty of other oddities when it comes to the status of Zero's arsenal).  Also, as I mentioned some posts back, Wily's attitude in the X-series really isn't the same as it was in Classic-series.  Never once in the X-series does Wily make a move for public recognition; he seems to take his "rivalry" far more personally in that besides himself and arguably Light, nobody that Wily cares to impress is aware of his presence.  He doesn't seem to give a damn about much else.

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Re: Bridging the gap. The Classic to X interim. What do we know?
« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2014, 08:40:16 AM »
ohey a discussion between hypershell and zan

this is just like old times. now if only marshmallow man were here lol
OH [parasitic bomb] IM USING LINK AND I ACCIDENTALLY FINAL SMASHED A CUCCO OH GOD HELP
Just enjoy yourself, don't complain about everything

Offline Zan

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Re: Bridging the gap. The Classic to X interim. What do we know?
« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2014, 02:01:03 PM »
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Sigma was not born of the virus, he bonded with it as a matter of circumstance and proceeded to manipulate it from there.  Chop Register "is" the virus.  Shurikein "is" the virus.  Sigma is not.  Sigma is sustained by the virus.  Sigma uses the virus.  Sigma uses others through the virus.  But Sigma no more "is" the virus than Wily is.

Doppler: Sigma's true form is that of a computer virus... I was corrupted by him and... I created a horrific new body for him...
Doppler: Sigma's consciousness is... a malignant program virus... he brainwashed me. I regretfully made him a dreadful body...


Fact of the matter is: an entity merged with the virus cannot compare to Zero's unique virus countermeasures.

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It depends, you need to clarify what "limitless potential" refers to.

Dr. Light: I have given you the power to think... to worry and to grow and evolve as you fight, but... it is too soon for that power to be unleashed...

"Limitless Evolutionary Potential", as Light defined it, applies to combat and human-robot relations both. X's ability to think, feel and worry is an innate part of it, but his physical growth and variability are also second to none. Zero does not grow stronger like X does.

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In battle, though, "the strongest in the universe", who is "something far greater than what you appear to be", can overcome any challenge just the same as "limitless potential" can.

Zero, by his base specs, skill, and virus countermeasures, has great potential to become the "strongest in the universe". This is true. X, however, can exceed Awakened Zero still.