Official Unofficial StarFox discussion thread

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Offline Hypershell

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Reply #50 on: July 24, 2009, 08:46:07 PM
Umm... no, you meant F-Zero GX, which was on the GC. F-Zero X was on the N64, which you omitted completely.
I think F-Zero is one of those games that, save GBA, isn't really expected to appear more than once on a console.  And ExciteTruck/Bots has kinda taken over the Wii's high-adrenaline racing for now, but I'm sure a new F-Zero will happen in due time.

I'd be more concerned about why it hasn't appeared on the DS.

Star Fox is a prime example of why I think games need less story.
Maybe it's the fact that I skipped Assault, but I didn't really mind Command's various branches.  It was a nice way to expand the roster and the experience.  Some of them were a bit fanboyish, but oh well, you can always choose a different path.  And whenever they do make a sequel, I'm sure they'll pick one of the more conservative endings.  Let's just hope it's not the default, since if Krystal's with Star Wolf, the same thing's going to happen all over again.  I think letting her live lovey-dovey with Fox, on or off the battlefield, would be preferable.  That way their relationship would be a side item and not the main focus.

Story in and of itself is not the biggest concern, the problem exists should story take precedence over gameplay, and maybe Command is an example of that.  Hard to say without knowing what went on in the development process, but I was really dissatisfied with the controls of the game.  Not only was the lack of a traditional option asinine, but if the game is going to be 100% all-range, that means they're stepping out of arcade territory and towards flight-sim territory, and the depth of your control needs to be enhanced in order to accommodate.  That didn't happen, and the entire game I was cursing the fact that you can't manually roll the ship to a desired angle.  The fact that they took away the 90-degree roll, which even the first game had, felt like even more of a slap in the face.

But we don't know that anybody in Nintendo realized that.  They might have said "it's touch-controlled, we're geniuses," and let it out the door even if the game didn't feature an ounce of dialogue.

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Offline Jericho

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Reply #51 on: July 24, 2009, 08:58:04 PM
StarTropics, anyone?

Fixed. XD

Now then, since I said I'd do it:

For the record, I already mentioned F-Zero X, quite literally before your bold :P

Fxeni brought ya up to speed on this already.

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As for FE, I'll admit that it's gotten more love recently, but look at how long it took for Nintendo to bring it over state side. The fact that it's very delay has created a trope means that it's not exactly well looked upon with NoA in the early years.

Do note that previously, due to NCL not knowing how well received a game series like Fire Emblem would be in the West as well as most of the games in the series coming out in the later years of the Nintendo console lifetimes (most notably, Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragons & The Blade of Light, the first one which debuted in the NES/Famicom's golden years) they weren't sure whether or not the risk would be worth it. It was just because of Marth's and Roy's dual cameo in Melee that they were even considered due to the popularity of the characters themselves. It was Nintendo's way of advertising, and since us West folk were all like "whoa, who're these guys?", they tested us to see if Fire Emblem could fly here, and sure enough, it does and well.


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Not to mention it's one game every other year. Ever since Melee, we've gotten about 5 FE games; the second and third GBA games, the GC and Wii games, and the remake of the first game for the DS. In 8 years, only 5 games have come out. Granted it takes time to make RPGs, at least more time than other games, and particularly FE games, but NoA didn't even bother releasing the older games on a GBA cart.

Two things are wrong here. First off, you're comparing this generations' output of Fire Emblem games to a generation that has already concluded. This gen I wouldn't even think is half over yet, naysayers excluded. In that time we've gotten two much higher quality Fire Emblem games (Radiant Dawn & especially Shadow Dragon DS) as well as the promise of more surprises to come. The numbers might not be as great as the previous generation, but considering that last gen was the first gen we even got Fire Emblem here and it was all just so that there would be some name recognition and development of a western fanbase, you can't really hold 5 games in one go as the standard.

The second part to this is that if there are too many releases in too short a time span, you risk over saturating the market with the games. Imagine if Fire Emblem would release bi-annually. Sure us big time Fire Emblem heads would be in nirvana, but the majority of people would actually see this as cash cow efforts and pass them all up. New people who might be interested in the franchise might become discouraged to do so since they wouldn't know which one to jump into first when they see 4 or 5 games on the same rack. It could also come as a knock on the actual quality of the game. The dev team at Intelligent Systems would be forced to churn out as good a product as possible to make ends meet for their next one with only minor or incremental updates from the last game since they don't have a long enough development cycle to bring in the new ideas. This then leads to series burnout where even the hardest of the hardcore FE fans would probably get slightly tired of the same old same old with a little new dressing on the top.

Long story short, I for one welcome the longer time periods between FE games (and most Nintendo and non-Nintendo franchises actually). A delayed game can become a great game with the time, but a released game will be whatever it is (good, bad, unrefined, etc.) forever.

Also, since I failed reading here, the possibility of future Virtual Console + localized JPN Fire Emblem games (or hell even more remakes in the forward thinking vein of Shadow Dragon DS) = everyone's happy. This is all on them though, so I think it's best not to worry about it and just appreciate it when and if it does happen. (It'll save ya a headache or two to think that way.)

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If there's one company I actually would never WANT to work for, it's probably Nintendo. They don't give two shits about a lot of their series.

This is the same company that won't lend out even the images of their characters for others outside of the company to manipulate or use due to their ninja like means of "IP Protection". Need an example of this? Switching Mario's persona to a more serious fighter's personality and giving him denims in Brawl. There's a story about Sakurai having to overcome this just to get Mario. Imagine the hoops he went through for the rest of the cast.

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Just put out Kirby and Pokemon on the handheld and Mario and Link on the console and the machines print money.

I'm not particularly fond of the neglect a lot of series get when it comes to console outings myself, but you know this isn't true. We've had rumblings on HAL working on a console Kirby much like a natural evolution of Super Star since the GCN days ([tornado fang]ing HAL). Pokemon was never really a console series, but we did get our Stadium equivalent in Battle Revolution.  Then you forget a lot of the smaller stuff that really has a fanbase that's getting second chances on Wii. (Sin & Punishment 2, Punch-Out!! Wii, the EXCITE racers)

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Plus, how often do they come out with an original series? I mean, seriously, I think the most recent ones are the Golden Sun games and Starfy games.

They do come up with original series, Captain Rainbow, the Tingle series (which is getting two weird new games soon XD), the Rhythm Tengoku series, and as much as folks want to discredit it, the Wii ___ series. Thing is, it's a risky business trying to create a new property these days since no one is sure how it will sell and who/what market it'd sell to. It wouldn't be much use if you created a top 3 game of the forever with production values out the ass if the market for that kind of game was shallow and "fool's gold" to chase after. I understand your side though because Nintendo, who used to pioneer some of the most amazing new game experiences and series when they were fresh in the game, seems to have fallen back on their laurels and brand name to sell a game. Not like this is bad when 75% of the time they push out a new Mario, Zelda, Metroid and the like, it's always a top tier game. (I do wish for a new StarFox, Kirby, Wave Race, Pilotwings, StarTropics, or even the Kid Icarus reboot, just to see some fresh Kool-Aid from Nintendo soon. XD)

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I mean, I know Capcom isn't exactly innocent of it either, but at least they try a bit more. Dead Rising, Zack and Wiki, and because they were under the name once, you could also count Okami, Viewtiful Joe, and God Hand. Even if most of those games aren't a series, it was at least an attempt to branch out.

Everyone can learn from Capcom this generation. They took chances and seriously pushed their efforts and were rewarded for them. They obviously have a long way to go before their "sequelitis" starts to fade from the public scrutiny, but you also have to admire their forward thinking in this particular round of game generations.

Although the bastards did ax Clover... XD



Offline Satoryu

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Reply #52 on: July 24, 2009, 09:17:44 PM
Also, since I failed reading here, the possibility of future Virtual Console + localized JPN Fire Emblem games (or hell even more remakes in the forward thinking vein of Shadow Dragon DS) = everyone's happy. This is all on them though, so I think it's best not to worry about it and just appreciate it when and if it does happen. (It'll save ya a headache or two to think that way.)

silly Jelly. Nintendo doesn't care about the Virtual Console anymore.


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Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #53 on: July 24, 2009, 09:20:42 PM
This is the same company that won't lend out even the images of their characters for others outside of the company to manipulate or use due to their ninja like means of "IP Protection". Need an example of this? Switching Mario's persona to a more serious fighter's personality and giving him denims in Brawl. There's a story about Sakurai having to overcome this just to get Mario. Imagine the hoops he went through for the rest of the cast.
Where was this IP Protection back in the Super Mario World days, when they seemed to license Mario's image to anybody just to sell more merchandise, and stuff like Mario Is Missing was coming out?



Offline Jericho

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Reply #54 on: July 24, 2009, 09:28:17 PM
Where was this IP Protection back in the Super Mario World days, when they seemed to license Mario's image to anybody just to sell more merchandise, and stuff like Mario Is Missing was coming out?

Dunno honestly, it's been impressive watching the ebb and flow of Nintendo to be quite honest. XD

I miss the stuff like the Super Mario Bros. cartoon shows for this reason dammit.



Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #55 on: July 24, 2009, 09:39:23 PM
Yeah, where's our Super Mario 64 cartoon?



Offline Pringer X

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Reply #56 on: July 24, 2009, 10:28:08 PM
Umm... no, you meant F-Zero GX, which was on the GC. F-Zero X was on the N64, which you omitted completely.

I still don't get your complaining about the lack of FE games, considering they've released more of those than some other series that are completely neglected.

ooooooooooooooh <.<

It's not the lack of FE games, it's just the lack of care for anything other than Mario, Zelda, or Pokemon with Kirby mixed in. I know the post was whiny, but for the most part, it's true. Every other series got maybe 1 game on each console, while those got more (granted Kirby's been knocked down to portable games with Pokemon, it still fits). I know there's the over-saturation that Jelly mentioned, but apparently that hasn't stopped the trumpets of Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon from coming up with spin-offs, more games, or what have you. As for the risks in original stories and whatnot, I think they'd do a lot better than most would expect. I mean, I don't see Prototype or INfamous being based on a pre-existing franchise and yet they're popular as all hell. It's how it's marketed and what the fan base is like.



Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #57 on: July 24, 2009, 10:32:56 PM
Ah, see, those were the "early days" in the careers of these characters (i.e. Mario, Link, Pikachu, etc.) And like any celebrity, you start out with heavy-to-absolutely ludicrous marketing, or, "whoring yourself out."

Then, like any celebrity, you hit your high-point. For these guys, that was the SNES to N64 when SMW, SM64, and OoT completely stormed the world. And that's when you have this kind of property protection and high-maintenance.

Because if you don't, you hit the next stage of stardom, which is decline. Trying to regain your stardom at this point is like a Ponzi Scheme; it will eventually fail. This stage is categorized by even more whoring out. For Hollywood, it's game show appearances and cameos. For videogames, it's commercial advertisements (Guitar Hero) or spinoff games (Sega Tennis Superstars and SONIC and Sega All-Stars Racing).

Which is why many people were forecasting doom for Nintendo. And, depending upon their care of their IPs, it just might still happen. As excited as I am for the new slew of AAA games, public interest still does not have anywhere NEAR the fervor it should have. Granted, if there's too much, it will cheapen and mainstream the experience, and if there's too little, it becomes cultish and unprofitable (I fear Mega Man is headed down that path...).

How has Nintendo managed to keep this balance? Actually, don't give them all the credit; the fans have done most of that job for them.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #58 on: July 24, 2009, 10:59:04 PM
Where was this IP Protection back in the Super Mario World days, when they seemed to license Mario's image to anybody just to sell more merchandise, and stuff like Mario Is Missing was coming out?
CDi happened.  Can you blame Nintendo for guarding their IPs like Fort Knox after that?

Posted on: July 24, 2009, 04:49:22 PM
ooooooooooooooh <.<

It's not the lack of FE games, it's just the lack of care for anything other than Mario, Zelda, or Pokemon with Kirby mixed in. I know the post was whiny, but for the most part, it's true. Every other series got maybe 1 game on each console, while those got more
That greatly depends on how you define a "Mario game", you know.  Spinoffs/sports are everywhere, but Mario platformers generally went one to a console, sans remakes, which is a big part of why E3 was such a surprise for me.  NSMBWii *AND* Galaxy 2?  They're going all-out now.  Last time we had that pleasure was way back on the SNES, and even then, some people don't consider YI truly a Mario game.

Also, I have to draw your attention to Metroid, which you neglected.  Got back in the spotlight after Prime.

Zelda also went for the longest time with only one "main-series" entry on GCN.  FSA was something of a tech experiment, albeit a fun one, and Twilight Princess didn't come until the Wii was already out.

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Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #59 on: July 25, 2009, 12:03:40 AM
Yeah, I was expecting the main Super Mario Brothers platformers to come out about 3 per console like on the NES, but the SNES era seems to be when all the weird Mario spin-offs began in earnest and started to drown out the traditional style.  At least Mega Man X and Final Fantasy stuck to 3 titles per console pretty well.  Heck, I think Legend of Zelda has been averaging more "main games" per console than Mario.  Mario just doesn't want to get too tied down to a genre despite having all those games.



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Reply #60 on: July 25, 2009, 12:45:12 AM
Well, if anything, Punch Out gives me hope for Nintendo franchises of the future.  I mean, we haven't seen a Punch Out game since SNES Super Punch Out, and Punch Out Wii is such a great, great new addition.  Also, Wario Land: Shake It is another great Nintendo franchise brought back as well. 

With StarFox, it's still possible to help it rise up again, and just from the Lylat Cruise stage in Brawl, you can see how beautiful they can make it.  The one good thing also is that since the DS game, I think Nintendo has learned their lesson, in terms of offering alternate control schemes, for their franchise games.  Either way, only time will tell.



Offline Satoryu

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Reply #61 on: July 25, 2009, 04:57:00 AM
they might've learned their lesson about story, too, looking at Mario Galaxy 2.


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Reply #62 on: July 25, 2009, 04:58:58 AM
I just hope Super Mario Galaxy 2 also has Super Peach Galaxy 2 as well, not to mention more Communist Flying Mario!



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Reply #63 on: July 25, 2009, 07:46:43 AM
Little Mac prefaced Punch-Out Wii, I can only hope Star Wolf as a playable on top of the James McCloud blurb in his trophy prefaces something new!



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Reply #64 on: July 25, 2009, 09:20:31 AM
they might've learned their lesson about story, too, looking at Mario Galaxy 2.

Wasn't Miyamoto actually pissed about the subtle story bits added in or whatever? I remember reading his reaction, and the text kinda gave off that he was laughing on the outside, but wanted to strangle the guy responsible for it. I know weird <.<

Well, it seems like Atlus is starting to show some love to Nintendo and try to bring in the middle age audience, with another Shin Megami game coming out on the DS in the future, and a new Yggdra Union. They've already released Devil Survivor and Endless Frontier out, which aren't half bad games themselves, so hopefully Atlus will start putting out some games on the Wii. They could probably put the Persona series on the Wii as well (though, I think they're being re-released on the PSP, I know there's at least one SMT game on the PSP coming out).



Offline Fxeni

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Reply #65 on: July 25, 2009, 06:05:28 PM
The problem with adding too much story to a game series that has previously survived on very little is that it could easily change the preconceived images that fans have of the characters. Take Star Fox as a perfect example. The earlier games had little story but kicked so much ass. Once they started adding in a story with a grander scope it started to fall apart, Command in particular being the biggest offender by far. While Assault was generally disliked for only it's gameplay (stupid on-foot sections), it's story was kept relatively simple. Command had the double whammy of weird controls (which I personally didn't mind, but lots of people did) and a pretty horrendous story that went on about everything that no one cared about in a Star Fox game. This effectively alienated a lot of people simply because the story and the way the characters behaved didn't fit at all with what people had come to expect from the series.

That said, I could see why Miyamoto wants a grand story out of his Mario. People may say that they want more story in such-and-such series, but it's not really what they want. As for the Mario series, the various RPGs are expected to have some sort of plot beyond "save the princess", but even these are kept relatively simple.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #66 on: July 25, 2009, 06:58:20 PM
With StarFox, it's still possible to help it rise up again, and just from the Lylat Cruise stage in Brawl, you can see how beautiful they can make it.  The one good thing also is that since the DS game, I think Nintendo has learned their lesson, in terms of offering alternate control schemes, for their franchise games.  Either way, only time will tell.
It sounds nice but I'm not really convinced of that.  One, they had that lesson learned in Metroid Prime Hunters, which IIRC was released before Command.  Two, they made all-touch Zeldas.  Three, they remove GCN support from New Play Control games.

There are good signs, though.  Mario Kart Wii, Punch-Out!!, and Fire Emblem Shadow Dragon.  So here's hoping.
(for the record, I love the Wii Wheel in MK, I simply believe that players should be given a choice if possible)

As for Brawl, yes, it's beautiful.  But many times Smash makes things look infinitely better than their own games do, Mario being the biggest example.  Of course, there are exceptions, particularly with the later-released games.  And SF Adventures was, visually, pretty cool.  So that's a good sign as well, but pace concerns me far more than visuals.  Assault utterly failed there, even without the on-foot segments, it still blows.

I just hope Super Mario Galaxy 2 also has Super Peach Galaxy 2 as well, not to mention more Communist Flying Mario!
I'm hoping for Daisy in NSMBWii, myself.  I'm sure it won't happen, but it would be awesome.

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Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #67 on: July 25, 2009, 10:06:11 PM
The problem with adding too much story to a game series that has previously survived on very little is that it could easily change the preconceived images that fans have of the characters.
I wonder how many players shouted "WHAT, I thought they were from Brooklyn!" at the end of Yoshi's Island.



Offline LightningKitsune

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Reply #68 on: December 30, 2009, 05:26:01 PM
Well sure.

Discuss the StarFox series, the games, characters, most hated level, etc.

It's so cool, it's official-unofficial.

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Reply #69 on: December 30, 2009, 06:18:37 PM
I'm just going to go ahead and say that the next Star Fox should be titled "Star Fox 64 2" during development.  Because that's the only way the franchise is going anywhere.  Adventures was a decent game that included a crappy Star Fox minigame.  Assault was atrociously slow even before you got anywhere on-foot, which is an evil concept that should NEVER be applied to any flight game.  And Command, while respectable, has crummy controls.  Overall nothing compares to the first two (or even three, if you count the Command-ish unreleased SNES game).

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Offline Jericho

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Reply #70 on: December 30, 2009, 08:49:54 PM
Mandatory Jelly post of "StarFox 64 > StarFox SNES >>>>>> all other StarFox games (lol Command)" goes here.

Also, less story, on foot missions (unless they can be worked out to be more like Sin & Punishment), all range mode missions & characterizations, more Top Gun style snippy one liners and blowing [parasitic bomb] up corridor shooter style in a fast moving Arwing/Landmaster/Blue Marine.



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Reply #71 on: December 30, 2009, 08:53:49 PM
dinosaur planet was awesome.

more on foot stuff, plz.



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Reply #72 on: December 30, 2009, 08:56:16 PM
dinosaur planet was awesome.

more on foot stuff, plz.

You know what the problem was with Dinosaur Planet/SFA? It felt like a game with a huge identity crisis. XD



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Reply #73 on: December 30, 2009, 09:08:09 PM
Only if they make on foot missions akin to Jet Force Gemini.



Offline Acid

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Reply #74 on: December 30, 2009, 09:13:03 PM
dinosaur planet was awesome.

It sure as [tornado fang] wasn't a Starfox game though.