Messages

READ THE RULES!! | Introduce Yourself | Embed YouTube Videos | RPM Holiday/Theme Weeks | Rockman 10 Ranking | Music Archive (2012.01.01) | Betas/Trials/Promos | WikiSpace | Oekaki | Rockman 10 Boss Damage

51

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 24, 2009, 09:06:41 PM »

In the briefings, Protoman is briefly referenced as a peacekeeping robot developed at the Institute for Artificial Intelligence (where Dr. Wright works), seemingly built after the second Great Mining War, to perform roughly the same duties as Mega Man. He disappeared with the other super robots of MM3, but the Ministry of Interplanetary Defense was unable to determine whether he was fighting for Wily or against him. The rest of the book then calls him Break Man and treats him like a stage enemy. It doesn't cover the endings, so it doesn't explain what happened to him or who he was fighting for. Interestingly, the picture the book uses for him is one that appears in R20 on page 207, the Blues sketch with the normal helmet on and the handle grip sticking out of his buster.

52

Rockman Series / Re: The PC games

« on: October 24, 2009, 08:57:31 PM »

Oddly, R&F WS was made into canon, wasn't it?

If you define canon as officially licensed, they always were. If you're talking about continuity, not especially. Appearing in R20 doesn't make the game any more J-continuity relevant than the mangas which were also showcased in the book.

IIRC it's referenced by ZX Advent.  I'm not sure if that really makes them canonical or if it's just a fun easter egg.  You have to bear in mind that this is the same game that established the 40-year-old gold/blue guy with a pistol on the U.S. MM1 box art as being a legendary superhero.

Past game characters appearing as cartoons/comic books in the distant future is nothing new (see Legends 2, Black Zero and much of the Classic-series cast), ZXA was just getting more obscure.

Right on. And using characters from the EXE universe as toys in the first ZX game shows that such omake examples need not be referencing historical figures from their world.

53

Zero / Re: MegaMan Zero, then and now.

« on: October 24, 2009, 08:43:46 PM »

Thing is, we're talking about a conflict that spanned centuries, how do you define "quickly" in regards to something like that?

Shorter than the 4 year war that supersedes it, I venture to guess.

I wonder, in RTRZ, how exactly did they describe the Shining Arms?

It didn't attempt to define them, it only noted that the Z-saber was one of them.

Vigilante?

Well, vigilante is my view, though perhaps I am mistaken. I can't seem to find the old english ZX site to compare. Does is still exist somewhere? The current english ZXA one seems to call the Raiders "Guardians."

I can compare that the english ZX instruction manual has translated 国家非公認組織 as "an organization run unofficially by the state" whereas I would read it to mean simply that the nations legally have not authorized/do not condone this group. A non-governmental organization is my understanding, something like a reploid Greenpeace.  Sometimes it's written 政府非公認組織 instead, which is roughly the same, a governmentally non-sanctioned organization. While certainly a secret government organization would be regarded as unofficial and be denied involvement to the general public, they'd still be reporting to the highest levels of authority. So far there hasn't been a stated connection to Legions, the highest form of world government, whom such a secret organization would seemingly be held accountable to in their world. The one given credit to their foundation in-game is Prairie's sis, who has quite a history of doing what she believes is right regardless of the law's position.

ZX Tunes' liner notes for Grand Nuage included:
全ての人々を守る「盾」としてのガーディアンの象徴である一方で、その行動を制限する術を持たない政府にとって、いささか煙たい存在でもある。

Guarian's "shield" is a symbol of protection for all people, but on the other hand, the government which does not posses means to restrict their actions regards their existence rather murkily.

It doesn't sound to me like the government likes them too much. A private army fly around freely in their mobile base, outside the legal jurisdiction of the existing nations, doing whatever they please. Their actions are generally noble and they're heroes and protectors to the people on the frontiers, where Hunters may be in short supply. They're not openly breaking the law or presenting a danger so they are tolerated, but not exactly welcomed. Serpent's security forces on the other hand seem to have both the confidence of the people and the official backing of the government to hold important influence within Cinq Ville. There's definitely a disparity between those groups, whereas if Guardian had some superlative secret authority in the government, they would be in a position to arrest Serpent for questioning directly and the seize his company from him. Though perhaps they simply lacked clear opportunity to do so without starting a war they weren't sure they had the firepower to win.

I could be wrong, maybe Guardian did have ties to some government somewhere. Maybe Master Thomas secretly used them as spies on Albert's plans, or by Albert himself to keep one step ahead of his own antagonists. Mikhail at least seems entirely clueless, although he seems to have been in the dark about many things when it comes to his colleagues' activities.

Given the lack of organized irregular hunters amongst Legions, I always got the impression they were more official than that. At least, the english ZX site referred to them as a secret government organization.

The Hunter Guild is an official group through which Legions interacts and supports, and by whom maverick uprisings are supposed to be suppressed. The armed force Atlas led in her doomed country was Hunter-related in ZXG's D&W track. But like that example shows, sometimes they seem to be outnumbered or outclassed by their maverick opposition. Particularly on the edges of civilization like the outlands, they can do for a bit of help. Whether Ciel took it upon herself to take up that mantle or the government secretly backed her in doing so, Guardian still seems to be operating outside the parameters of normal law.

Furthermore the absence of the Z-Buster leaves Zero conspicuously shoved off-screen during Redips's attack on the Central Tower, right after R is killed.  They seemingly figured that him taking cover with Marino, Massimo, and Cinnamon wouldn't be good for his image, and X and Axl are firing back.  Zero just disappears.

Maybe he jumped up there and took down the ship, X3 style. Something unshown ended the assault, I like to imagine he contributed a bit.

I view Zero's poor matchup against him as simply further evidence of Force Metal tanking, same as X (who actually has the advantage in that case with X-Fire) against Jango.

Zero might not have been at 100%, since we don't know what kind of injuries he sustained after the first chapter, or under what circumstances he recovered from them. Good enough to fight through Jentra's goons, though.

Ive always believed, I dont even remember where from- that Zero series is 22XX.

Don't feel too bad about it, Capcom artist Ryuuji Higurashi thought the same thing when he was working on Command Mission.

54

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 22, 2009, 10:10:46 PM »

 

That guy mentioned in the manual of the first historical simulation.

Joke derailment! "Wright" was used in the first US manual, "Light" in the second and third. I tried to get MMN to correct their manual transcript a while back, but I see they haven't. They even have an instance of Dr. "Write" on there, which I don't believe was ever used for him in any official capacity. Reminds me of Link's Awakening tho.

55

Zero / Re: MegaMan Zero, then and now.

« on: October 22, 2009, 09:56:24 PM »

Still waiting for MarshmallowMan's belated answer to my previous wall of text.

Sorry! My bad.

We know for a fact the facility in question was built to house him. How much time was needed to build this facility?

In a universe where fortresses spring up in weeks and whole cities in months, giving this construction a year to complete already seems generous.

Likewise, we could wonder if the idea of studying Zero's Sigma Virus came about immediately. Zero's initial purpose was to remove something from himself. Perhaps they spent a good portion of that time removing the thing in question?

If that thing and their experiments are both concerned with the virus' relationship with Zero which is not completely understood, then said testing is likely a necessary step in the very task Zero asked them to perform.

Perhaps Zero was put in quarantine for a considerable time in the hopes that his absence would stop the spreading of the Sigma Virus?

That would be an experiment, noting the effects of quarantine. Not that it makes sense for them to think Zero can contribute to the virus spreading while in cold sleep. The virus still spreads and survives to threaten the peace by other means while Zero is asleep, or we wouldn't need Mother Elf.

Perhaps for the longest time they ignored Zero under assumption that the samples of Zero's Sigma Virus were no different than the regular Sigma Virus?

In other words, they stuck him out on the back burner. The first scientist in X6 seemed apprehensive to even take Zero out of commission in the first place, much less waste time when he's already being handed an overwhelming work load.

There isn't a very easy explanation for what letting him sit and doing nothing accomplishes. Everything points toward a high priority project. Downtime between experiments could also fall under the same umbrella of the half century span either way.

We would also have to consider the trouble in properly avoiding the negative effects of Zero's Sigma Virus on the research in question. Studying the Sigma Virus under safe conditions is no small feat.

Proper precautions which the scientists needed to be taking into account during their experiments, so this doesn't add time.

The opposite proposition is considering the effectiveness of Mother Elf. With the completion of Mother Elf, Zero is purified from the Virus and his study comes to an end.

Maybe, maybe not. We can't be sure the Mother Elf cured Zero, his original body at least. If portions of Wily's programming did remain in it. For whatever reason Zero is immune to Dark Elf's control, he may be resistant to Mother Elf's purging. Perhaps only separation from that body into a new one was the solution. Grey area stuff.

But what about the rest of the world? Was her effect an instantaneous deus ex machina or did it take nearly half a century to turn all the Mavericks to normalcy? How long does it take to eliminate the Virus once and for all? Certainly "reversal" is incomparable to "immunity", conflicts will still arise and those irregulars will have to be stopped in order to cure them.

We can't really be sure that the virus was eradicated from the entire populace, only that the fighting quickly ended. Leading to a brief time of recorded peace where X ideally isn't fighting so much but might have been too brief for X to consider any kind of end to the fighting in retrospect. Followed by the 4 year down and dirty tragic Elf Wars.

But the entire time up through Omega's birth and copy Zero's emergence in the Elf Wars could also fall under the half century of experimentation from a conservative viewpoint. Omega's creation itself can be looked upon as a form of experiment that Zero was quite involved with.

To simplify the above even more, X did say "nearly" one hundred years. We can thus shorten the timespan that needs to be covered to considerably less.

I guess 51 years would be enough if he only rounded to the nearest 100, but I don't think that's what he meant. I guess I'd settle for 80-ish, but I don't really even see that many years being accounted for before Zero was woken up again.

It feels quite wrong to think of the utopia as never having truly known the peace Zero sealed himself away for...

It may be a lesson that giving in to the fearful humans and in effect running away from his problems wasn't really the best idea. Same situation for X sealing himself, he ducks out of the picture and things get a whole lot worse. Similar to X's lesson in X7, can't protect the world by giving up the fight, but long cycles of history are all about repeating themselves whether we want them to or not. X was square against Zero's final seal, and it seems to have even been done behind X's back to some extent. Not exactly a cool thing to do to your best friend. If copy Zero was still spreading the virus that would be one thing, but it doesn't appear to have been the case.

Having only some idea of why they both did what they did, it still doesn't mean that was necessarily the best solution. Model Z's discussion of the challenge of facing one's destiny and carving it, sounds better than ignoring or hiding from it. If from the beginning of Neo Arcadia they had tackled their problems head-on, together, the way they always used to, things may never have gotten to the dark place they were in the Zero series. It was only them coming together and relying on each other once again that pulled the world back from disaster.

Big 4

Maybe they were around for the Elf Wars, maybe they weren't, I don't have much to add at the moment.

From reading the Data Files of the three Mechaniloids (Eagle Area M, Hydra and Leon Area I) in Rockman ZX, started to malfunction after they were infected by some kind of virus. Either Inti Creates plans to involve the Sigma Virus in the the next ZX games or this was nothing but a little footnote for speculations and theories.

Viruses still exist in the Zero series, Cocapetri used some advanced virus he got from Weil to spread chaos in Z4. Dark Elf's curse and powers may be virus related as well. Sigma virus isn't necessarily the only virus in their universe. Some variant of viruses and diseases will probably always exist for robotkind (outside of Elysium).as it does in nature. Viruses like the ones mentioned in ZX, and the various body altering and mind control powers of Model V, might be a distant form of Sigma virus evolution, or may be unrelated phenomena.

Shining Arms speculation

The other day I entertained a brief notion that maybe all the Shining Arms made appearances in Z1, as a result of the early notion of Inti not expecting a sequel. I came up with:

Necromancess' staff - The power to bring back the dead is pretty cool.
Hanumachine's pole - Already based on a legendary weapon itself.
Asura Bazura's swords/shield - Not sure what specifically should be counted, but she's got unique handlheld weapons at least.

I didn't have a fouth handheld weapon though, so the last one would have to be attached to someone, breaking the pattern again, Maybe Falcon's wings or Anchortus' pincers or something. Ganeshariff's... Oh well, nevermind.

I wonder if Inti will ever touch on it again. That and the great Guardian mysteries, of which we know what, only one of..?

Ambiguousness can be nice, but in ZX it is just overused.

Probably, but it serves the hype and the mood.

We have the Guardians, a secretive vigilante group bordering on the fringe of what is legal or the social norm, and are likely to be guilty of circumventing the life span equality laws. They generally use codenames for each other, presumably not just because it's cool but for their own protection as well. For them a certain level of vagueness in identity may be a virtue.

Then we've got these kids, Vent and Aile. They're 14, orphaned at age 4, don't seem to know their history especially well, don't know what Cyber Elves are, spending their youth working (did they go to school?) with their legal guardian Giro, a man with many secrets he keeps to himself. During the game, they're getting a rushed sort of crash course on the past from people used to keeping secrets and talking in codes, inbetween and on top of accomplishing difficult missions of general urgency.

I'd like to think our hero(es) took some time after Serpent's demise and caught up on some of the missing details during the 4+ years between ZX and ZXA, off-screen of course. At least getting to know a bit about the personal histories of their biometal partners.

Doesnt it mention it in the manuals?

I think the English manuals just said something non-specific about the Z-saber powering the buster up.

How explicitly does that page say it?

【BUSTERSHOT】
レジスタンスが携帯する旧式ウェポン。
ゼットセイバーの柄をマガジンにすることで
強力なエネルギーブレットを射出することが
可能になった。

Bustershot
An old style weapon carried by the rResistance. Applying the Z-saber's handle into the magazine, it becomes possible to fire stronger energy bullets.

I figure that the reintroduction of Zero to his Z-Saber hastened his getting over Hibernation Sickness/made him remember something inside. I mean, haven't you ever been groggy?

Maybe he did remember something, seeing as he thought to put the saber into the gun's magazine in the first place. He still had a lot of skill remembering/relearning to do after that, though.

It just occurred to me that in a topic about the revisions the Z series undertook, we haven't discussed the change from the cross-like Heaven to the domed Neo Arcadia. Not that I can think of much to add about it, just seems funny we didn't mention it.

56

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 22, 2009, 05:48:58 PM »

So THAT is where Light's first name of "Xavier" comes from.

Who's Light? We're talking about Dr. Wright here...    I think Mandi Paugh is responsible for that on the net far more than this obscure book. I'm not sure she had the book herself because she doesn't seem to include many elements from it in her fanfics, but maybe one of the MMHP community did and shared some info with her. I imagine that's why she thought she was right to use it as Light's middle name. Dunno.

But if that's "history", at which time are they recollecting all of this? You could consider any mistakes made as historical inaccuracies.

The forward is from December 2055, that's the point where the information has been collected. The first war took place in 2035, the second in 2038, the third in 2043, and Wily's Revenge in 2052. The stories are supposed to be reproductions of top secret documents, so I guess one cold argue that the reproductions were inaccurate or that the initial authors at the time didn't have all the facts straight in the memos, although 90% of it would have to be inaccurate to fit with some other stuff.

The overall idea here reminds me of how the Dune universe has both the original books, and the newer books to form its canon.

G-money Lucas has a similar relationship with his Star Wars expanded universe. Even Baum's Oz books have similar problems, come to think of it. It may be an inevitable symptom of any franchise that lives too long.

I'd love to see them try to explain the games with multiple endings.

The book doesn't discuss game endings, just the aftermath, so maybe they'd just do like they did with Roll and ignore everything.

Maybe they'd occasionally throw in a hint or two as to what "really happened. That's what Capcom's been doing anyway.

Insert Quote
Alternate history fanfics!

But they would probably have disclaimers in the "real" MegaMan world.

Or that. After all, you're already choosing your own boss order, so you're not going to go through the simulation the exact way the historical Mega Man did.

I wonder what sorta takes it has on MM.

Mega Man was a speechless emotionless robot who runs on pure logic, sees in infrared scope, has a detachable plasma cannon on his right arm "end effector" (but not his left). After the wars ended he was given a personality chip to give him "the emotional presence and maturity of an adult male." He still can't talk though. He absorbs energy through his breathable titanium alloy skin, but also drinks WD-40 coolers.

And who it's endorsed by ...

Mentioned this already, but Capcom did.

"The only guide that has been officially authorized by its manufacturer, Capcom U.S.A." - front cover.

"I would like to thank Kathleen Watson and Gracie Howell of CAPCOM U.S.A. for coordinating the project..." - Acknowledgements

It also includes a game ad and a $10 rebate off the purchase of Capcom games, like they used to put in some of their instruction manuals. It's a trip.

57

Fan Creations / Re: Rebirth of the Rockman-Themed Stolen *Bleep* Thread!!

« on: October 21, 2009, 05:25:56 PM »

I wonder what's happening... By ピロキ.

Hah, cool. It's a redone scene from Ariga's Strongest Enemy in History chapter in Mega Mix, with one panel omitted and one major line change.

Diveman: Kyaaaaaa!

Kalinka: B... Blues... what are you doing!?

Rock: Blues!?

Cossack: Blues!! What's the big idea!? Stop this bad joke at once!

Blues: ...I didn't want to have to do this, but... if anyone tries to interfere with Rockman and Rockman's duel... I'll tear off this hostage's skirt!!

Cossack: Kalinka!!

Kalinka: (Blues... what are you thinking...?)

Blues' original line was "I can't guarantee this hostage's safety..."

Next panel... everyone interferes?

58

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 21, 2009, 05:05:43 PM »

Do you own "The Official Guide to Megaman", or was the info you provided just word-of-mouth?

I do own it. Got it off ebay a while back, for about the price on the book's back after shipping and handling. That's also how I got the Mega Man 2 Worlds of Power book. It might have even been from the same seller, who might have been a fan in his/her youth. Or maybe they just had a huge retro juvenile book stockpile. You can get it on Amazon from used booksellers too.

http://www.amazon.com/Official-Guide-Mega-Man/dp/0874552419/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256136246&sr=8-1

The Official Guide to Mega Man by Steven A. Schwartz, ISBN 0-87455-241-9 published from COMPUTE Books in 1991.

It recants the "history" of Dr. Xavier Wright and his assistant Dr. Jerome Wily, who created 6 powerful androids together for use in the space mining colonies, until Wily turned betrayed the government and reprogrammed them. Now a seventh robot, meant to be the overseer of them all, has been converted (the book says by Wily in one instance, but I think that's a typo since every other part says Wright) into a battle robot to stop the rampaging. The story is told in the form of reports and communiques between Galactic Council officials and scientists (who share names with then-members of Capcom USA and the author himself) called "reproductions of top-secret government documents" from between the years 2035 and 2055 (the suggested timeframe of MM1-3 and DWR). The Mega Man games themselves are referred to as historical simulations that allow people to learn about and interact with history. It's clever in a cheezy 80s way.

also, another note on when you mentioned guides, the Command mission guide- is of questionable canonity as well, as it's intro tells of story events but then kind oif has its own story, telling of the events in the firm of a message from Alia to Signas, saying that the Eastern Maverick hunters, (AKA Redips,) is requesting backup from them.

M Sipher himself is from the same vein of creative storytelling as the OGtMM author. It's cool he goes through the extra effort, even if he isn't always 100% accurate with it. In this case, the Japanese CM Official Complete Guide does mention Signas, Alia and Douglas, so they're probably still around, just not relevant to the story at hand, not unlike how the US guide portrays them.

59

News and Announcements / Re: TatsuCap update: X series Zero ready to fight!

« on: October 13, 2009, 11:46:59 PM »

Surprisingly pleased at them using X-series version Zero (and not the X8 version to boot).

60

ZX / Re: Raiders = Red Alert?

« on: October 13, 2009, 11:38:47 PM »

On topic, Red Alert seemed to be a ragtag band of bounty hunters loosely aligned by Red's organizational prowess and charisma, and not a global military behemoth like Repliforce once was. I imagine the organization died along with Red. Their logo was always a stylized monster "R" anyway.

But Red's fame could well live on in history or in legends. As a tough guy reploid who lived as he wished and did what he felt was right regardless of whether the government condoned or condemned his actions, unafraid and unapologetic, he is pretty much the ideal of the illegal Hunter. He can still be the Raiders' folk hero, relative patron saint, symbol, whatever without being an actual surviving remnant of the ancient Red Alert organization.

61

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 13, 2009, 11:23:51 PM »

Wow, I sure missed a lot. Looks like I'm gonna make another TLDR post.

Sounds like we're still figuring out "Canon" vs "Continuity." The current vernacular of Rockman canon includes the question of story continuity with the question of canonicity. Like Wikipedia's definition,  "Canon (fiction), material that is considered to be "genuine", "something that actually happened", or can be directly referenced as material produced by the original author or creator." Rockman game continuity is the original version, the genuine story by the original authors and creators, the basis on which the franchise was built and from which all other regionalizations and spin-off material is derived. Here canon and continuity are combined.

If we regard canon as "everything with a Capcom logo" then there is a great deal of un-connected continuitites included under the general phrase of being canon, making what is canon a separate definition and continuity a subset of that. Here what is official or officially licensed is canon, but that has no bearing about what continuity or universe a set of data exists in relation to. They could be all together lumped like the Mandi-verse, or divvied out individually.

Apparently we want to reconcile these. Are we going to try and establish some kind of canon ranking system like Star Wars does? I'll abide by whatever you guys want to, if we can get a consensus going.

There was certainly a time Capcom USA tried to keep Mega Man its own thing. I don't know enough about all European regions to state the same, but in the US it's pretty clear. Starting with the MM1 intro, they reworked the story. They've just never done so very consistently, making the notion of establishing a "continuity" exceedingly difficult.

If we're trying to identify a US continuity then we should include games, manuals, and boxes, and deal with each contradiction in turn on an individual case basis, rather than throw out all manuals or all boxes because of a few discrepancies. Capcom USA's web site should also be included. Perhaps to some extent, the ads Capcom puts out as well.

We also need to address the nature of Capcom/developer comments, as in "do they only apply to Japanese game continuity since the designers are Japanese, or if the medium of the interview is in English and they talk of Mega Man, doesn't that make it US canon?" Most of the time the developers aren't making it clear that they're talking about only a certain regional continuity, or even that they consider the two to be wholly separate. It might be easier to categorize when it's a US publication's interview, but then some interviews are simply translated, like in Mega Man Zero Official Complete Works which were not initially about "Mega Man" but the names were region swapped to fit, at times misleadingly. And where the book retcons what's shown in the games, like the Big 4's death, which takes priority?

There's also the US "Official Guides" to consider, they deal directly with the game continuity but also make their own additions. A step below that would be gaming magazines and articles, things they say about it that may or may not have been information from Capcom.

On that subject, the most asupicious guidebook in my opinion is "The Official Guide to Mega Man" from 1991, produced in direct coordination with Capcom USA at the time. This book "goes much further than simply offering the tips and tricks necessary to complete each game. It purposefully attempts to fill in the missing details about Mega Man, Dr. Wright and Dr. Wily, and the wars in the mining colonies." When USA had  a deliberately original canon story, this was it. It wasn't 100% faithful to the MM1 manual, but kept Mega Man being "defender of the universe" and fighting in "Monsteropolis" and the association of "Dr. Wright, and his assistant Dr. Wily." Poor Roll is again omitted.

Yet this undertaking to establish Cap USA's own Mega Man story was undermined shortly after it began when Mega Man 4's intro denied many of the origin circumstances the book asserted. It was an Official book telling the Official story of the games... It just didn't stick. Many of its notions are recognized as quite contrary now (most games take place outside of Earth, Mega Man can't speak, Mega Man has "the emotional presence and maturity of an adult male" etc). We could say they have since been retconned out of continuity, or we could try to be fairer and salvage it on a line by line basis, "What exactly has been contradicted? What exactly has not?"

We can try to evaluate all the variables...  Yet it might be easier to just go post a thread on Capcom Unity and ask what they want us to consider Mega Man US canon, since that is essentially going to the source of said canon. Depending on what kind of reply we get, go from there.

The US stories, such as they are, don't offer up many bothersome contradictions.

They offer enough that we wound up here in the first place. You wouldn't be so eager to toss out the packaging info if they didn't.

In the past, US Mega Man games and materials have often been devalued from canon as the result of fans wanting to understand the story at a greater level. Somewhere between awkward translations and inconsistent regionalizations, from the beginning to the present day, fan sites have picked up on that US continuity was a mismatched mess and tried to figure out what was "real story" was by looking at the original version. In other words, it became like this for a reason. For the sake of in-depth discussion on plot and continuity, it's something only possible with the Rockman version, or by combining Rockman with Mega Man.

With US canon as strictly its own animal, some simple questions which would otherwise have answers thanks to Japanese sources become unanswerable again. Who is that character shown in the MM7 password screen when you entered the data wrong? In strict US continuity, it is a character with no official name and no clear understanding.  In Japanese continuity, we can say it's Wily's pet bird Reggae who first appeared in the game Rockboard. What is Iris using when she transforms and fights Zero in X4? Japanese canon says she's combining with her brother's CPU to fulfill the Ultimate Soldier project of Repliforce. US canon knows nothing about that project, and can't answer what it was. We're left to speculate something about evil energy powered ride armors. This kind of thing should change as more materials are brought over by Udon like the MM and MMX OCWs. Provided we count them as US canon when they're released.

Even within themselves, the US games sometimes fall short on clarity. Like Protoman's beginning in Powered Up that was previously discussed. Comparing to the Japanese version allows us to understand what was meant.  Instead of "Who are you?" Wily's Japanese line is "Ki- kisama wa?"  basically means "Y-You?" (a very derogatory version of "you" at that.) It can hold connotations of anything from "Who are you?" "What's your name?" "What are you doing here?" "What do you want?" "What are you trying to say?" "What about you?" and so on and so on. You can say it to someone you've just met (who has greatly irritated you somehow) or to someone you've known for years and want to verbally disrespect. The stuttering is a sign of surprise and recognition, as is the immediate jump to anger and insults, and the continued exposition that Wily knows Blues is a robot who doesn't follow orders. Thus "Who are you?" is an inappropriate translation, unless taken facetiously.

Mega Man X4's flashback scene might be one of the worst, starting off with Sigma telling a story and ending with Sigma being surprised and Zero acting as though he knew all along, or rather as if he was the one doing the telling, despite that it follows Sigma's perspective. It's an error that could totally change one's understanding of the scene. Translation can make a huge difference.

But it isn't always clear what's a translation error and what's an intentional swap. Typos are usually easy to identify, and name irregularities. But did they mean to alter continuity by saying Sigma's partner was X's former comrade in X5? Were we supposed to think that X must be Mega Man (because Light and Wily were former partners, building US canon on US canon) or that Dr. Cain was actually evil (X4 US manual says Cain made Double, after all!) ...Who knows.

I can think of a few major changes to Mega Man continuity from the Japanese version that have stuck around in some persistent form in US canon, licensed spin-offs and fanon. Things that generally go beyond a single mistranslated line or altered source. Wily and Light as partners before MM1 is one of them. Everybody here's familiar with that.

That Mega Man knows Protoman is his brother is another. MM7 is the strongest support of the case. Even when regionalizing the Upon A Star OVA, they changed the script so that Protoman calls Mega Man "brother." It is seemingly the impression they were trying to give is that they are familiar with each other and their relationship. It hasn't been entirely consistent though, and can cause some theoretical problems. Like where Protoman lies to Duo about his relationship with Mega Man in their combined Power Fighters ending. It lends the question of, why? Maybe he misunderstood the question as Duo saying that their personalities are completely alike when they are not, or maybe he just doesn't trust giant Mary Sue aliens (but then why ask him to come back sometime?)

Then there's the infamous ending to Mega Man 7. Clearly not a mistranslation of Japanese, since the lines in question were pretty much all added and didn't exist in the original. Some hate it, some love it, but for fans of the change it winds up being a source of frustration when later games don't feature Mega Man acting like such a badass, wondering what happened to his resolve.

And then, there's the Mega Buster. In Japan, the Rockbuster uses solar energy condensed into a solar bullet. In the US, the arm cannon has been said to be running off plasma energy since at least 1990's Mega Man Dr. Wily's Revenge. Some people think the Mega Buster didn't exist until Mega Man 4 because of the intro, mistaking "the New Mega Buster!" for "the new Mega Buster!" Contradicting that, recent games like Mega Man Collection and Powered Up have showed that the Mega Buster  has been Mega Man's weapon since his battle conversion.  Likewise, plasma power comes into slight question when we get to the X series and X gets the Plasma Shot, leaving some wondering how if X's weapon has always been plasma based, what makes the Plasma Shot is so different?

Those are some things I would conclude as being inherently "US canon" if we're not going to call it "those weird little things that got changed from the actual canon" anymore.

Anyway, there are certainly a few stories that are of peculiar "semi-canon" status in regard to the games. MegaMission1 for instance is accepted by R20 and had Inafune's design involvement.

I guess the new phrase would be "canon, but outside of continuity."  R20 still calls it a Carddas Original Story, just as the sequels are called in other books.

Like Heatman's being hotter than two suns.

At 12000 degrees celsius, Heatman can burn at temperatures hotter than the surface of the sun. The surface is also the coolest part of any star. The layers of the core, and even the corona, burn at temperatures hundreds of times greater than Heatman. Heatman can supposedly get ridiculously hot. But he is not "hotter than two suns" unless you want to be way more specific about what part of the sun you're talking about.

They took a page from the manga, and had them repaired and their programming restored.

As it turns out, the idea that the robots would be restored to goodness was part of the first Rockman story, long before Ariga's or Ikehara's mangas came about. Having to collect those chips from the 6 RM1 bosses dropped wasn't just to gain weapons but to recover the hearts and minds of the robots themselves. We never did see that plot element come to full fruition in-game until later on though.

62

Zero / Re: MegaMan Zero, then and now.

« on: October 07, 2009, 08:57:45 PM »

【BIG4 of X-BIOROID】
陸海空影４大軍団を率いる将軍たち。
エックスDNAからのクローニングによって
生まれた、レプリロイド以上の存在である

http://www.inti.co.jp/cd/zero1/index.htm

The commanding generals of the four great armies; land, sea, air, and shadow. Born by means of cloning from X DNA, their existence goes beyond that of normal repliroids.

Maybe you should revise your definition of what it means to be cloned from something. Employment of such technology doesn't always constitute being a "carbon copy" of an original.

63

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 07, 2009, 08:06:54 PM »

Regarding canon, I think it's usually understood what canon someone is talking about from the context, but I'll admit it does appear to get to be confusing for newcomers to the fandom. If I recall, at one point Mega Man Network had an article explaining it, though I think it got dropped over subsequent site moves/reboots, along with their Sourcebook info section.

As for Japanese Rockman canon vs American/European/etc Mega Man canon...  While some things are apparently changed intentionally for western audiences, a lot of Mega Man game and media produced info suffers from inconsistency, misconception and mistranslation. Where we can't always tell which is what, it is easier (for those familiar with the Japanese versions at least) to go by the original standard and note the exceptions. But outnumbering these are the many games, books, cds and merchandise that were never brought over at all, and thus regional counterparts don't exist. If we say that American game canon is a separate entity from Japanese game canon, then we essentially say there is nothing in the Japanese canon that applies to the American without being expressly mentioned in the American. Which means huge gaps and a large number of unknown variables that would otherwise have been understood.

I don't think this is news to anyone in this thread, hell, much of this thread itself is proof positive of what I'm referrring to. And that's not to say Japanese sources never contradict, never retcon or never offer silly explanations that don't necessarily make the most sense. It isn't about what's "best," you can prefer whatever version you like, be it manga, comic book, anime, cartoon, A-game or J-game. There's always the option to compose your own fanon or exercise your imagination regardless of any of these.

What the default phrase of "canon" usually refers to around here is that these are stories and backgrounds put out by the people who first and foremost created these games, this is the tale they told before it was wrung through the filtering process for another region, or reworked into a comic book or TV show, and this is the foundation that future game and related entries are likely to build from and abide by (for whatever that really accounts for). I usually try to specify "game canon" even though that itself is something of a misnomer in that it actually extends further than what is simply found in the games. But because it's mostly what I talk about, what I think most of the plot discussions in this entire board section are about, it's simple enough to just say canon for shorthand. When we're talking about a different canon, manga for instance, it usually requires further specification anyhow, as in "Iwamoto's Rockman X manga" which is mutually exclusive with "Ikehara's Irregular Hunter Rockman X manga," or "Battle Story Rockman EXE manga" vs regular "Rockman EXE manga" vs. its American counterpart "Mega Man NT Warrior manga" etc. etc. etc. To refer to them all commonly as "canon" would, in my estimation, be more confusing than the current state where one recognized version is regularly referred to as canon and the others as specified as separate universes, which though not necessarily mentioned as such are understood to be canon only to themselves.

Anyway, the cool thing about Gigamix is that practically no one in the Capcom licensed manga realm, not even Ikehara, has done a serious R3 manga before. And for that matter, most "sourcebooks" from that or any current era skip over the greater part of the details about the unknown worlds, Blues/Breakman, the crystals and Gamma... For such an old game, it's new territory. It will be food for thought, if nothing else.

64

Zero / Re: MegaMan Zero, then and now.

« on: October 06, 2009, 08:11:16 PM »

But with peace and the fighting that is starting again, painful memories long ago stored away resurface and his own tiredness is brought to like as he feels himself forced to take up arms once again.

So, supposing that X's tiredness is related to the echoes of history and the reawakening of tragic memories from over a hundred years ago... Did you want to venture a hypothesis on where Zero is for the other half a century where he's not being studied and worked with?

Well, we ought to take into account their current status as the four guardians of Neo Arcadia, the ones without equal in fighting prowess. Certainly in the past they had to have proven themselves beyond the operation to restore the land for them to take on such an important position within the Neo Arcadian army.

Perhaps. On the flip side, depending on how long the Resistance has been fighting Neo Arcadia during Copy X's 5 or so year rule, there could be quite enough time for them to be distinguished into modern warrior heroes by the media propaganda machine. If already saviors of humanity through their environmental work, and with their bioroid connection to the hero (X-liness is next to godliness in this regime), with the added bonus of their inherited loyalty to Copy X which makes them reliable generals for entrusting his will be done, they seem to be the natural selections of known available choices.

Then again, that they're loyal to X in the first place might also show they fought under his orders beforehand, during the Elf Wars or after. Or maybe they just always idolized the guy they were cloned from who saved the world countless times.

But that they take such a flippant approach to fighting could be indicative that they weren't around for the hardcore Elf Wars. Where even X needed a helping hand and combat gods like Zero and Omega roamed the Earth. It doesn't seem like they've had that overwhelmingly horrific war atrocity experience firsthand, or been humbled before by truly powerful enemies as our heroes faced in the Irregular Wars, before Zero came along. Like four big fish in a small pond, before the floodwaters broke.

Could it be they had dual purpose? Warriors in war, and environment restoration in peace?
But that their peace job was stopped at some point?

RTRZ booklet suggested something like that, but it's more a matter of reconciling that with what Takuya Aizu mentioned in the interview portion.

65

Rockman Series / Re: Ancient Theories/Fanon

« on: October 06, 2009, 08:08:26 PM »

If there is something Gigamix can teach us in relation to the actual game canon, it will probably be in the interview/comments portion that are usually included at the end of the compilation volumes. I haven't heard anything yet about Gigamix's section, though I think I recall reading in previews that it would have one, just as the recent revisions of Megamix have.

When the Megamix chapters were first written, Ariga would write margin notes where his ideas would sometimes refer to or go against the games' canon, but it seems he stopped doing it when he began repackaging the tales as his own version of the Rockman universe instead of being side stories that could take place in the game canon universe, so I don't expect that he provided such notes in Gigamix. I think our best hope is the interview and discussion section.

66

X / Re: What did Lumine mean?

« on: October 06, 2009, 07:56:48 PM »

Zero doesn't need X's circuitry designs to adapt to a new code of  morality and ethics, robots like Ballade and King previously set the standard for that kind of growth, and without X's extreme form of worrying which good Zero doesn't seem to match with regardless. The ability for Wily to design a smart robot that learns and adapts beyond its origins is already in place.

But supposing Wily is (somehow) copying Light's latest brain designs thinking that they will give some fast-processing edge despite that Light's purpose in the worrying design is to allow the robot be intelligent and sensitive enough to avoid the kind of unethical activities that Wily routinely assigns to his robots, then Wily has some serious adapting to do to suit his purposes. If the worrying is the work of a single chip vs the entire brain, better to just chuck that out and create his own evil version of that chip in its stead. If this is a more general and integrated programming algorithm, then with cutting pasting and splicing evil code which eventually becomes known as the virus is the method of choice. In either regard Zero's eventual heroism is not by default, but by some manner of error or miscalculation. The good side is not meant to be operating without or above the evil side, for the evil as the "true" form is desired above all, and Zero operating without this in firm place is to Wily essentially broken and malfunctioning.

How it came to be malfunctioning is the semantic scene-stealer. If Wily's evil code was never properly a match to cancel out the more noble effects of the circuitry, if that "W" in the X4 flashback scene was the rejection of the darkness or an error of ethical conflict arising, then it was perhaps inevitably Wily's failure inherent in design. Never properly managing to counteract that which he himself had dangerously set into his creation, Wily played with fire and got burned, with none to blame but himself.

Yet contrary to that lies the effects of the virus whose influence can be seen on the vast numbers reploids who are known explicitly to be inheriting some of X's circuit designs and even simpler mechaniloids who are not. One would ask why it works so well on so many but not on the one it was designed to be integrated with in the first place. But in fact, for a while at least, it does seem to work. Zero's evil persona is working fine, at least up until the "W" lights up. In X2 Serges can make it work again for a time, and X5 as well. It would seem then that the concept he utilized is sound in theory, if not yet perfected. The extremes to which must be gone to achieve it grow seemingly greater, the element in Zero which refuses the process perhaps grows stronger.

It is also possible that the "W" was related to some other ill-timed anomaly. Perhaps a triggered memory of Wily from during construction not unlike X's flashback in Day of Sigma, but meant to gain Zero's attention and push him onto destiny's path. Or Wily himself brought back to life by the virus from data within Zero's head, or attempting to communicate with Zero directly into his mind. If something of this nature, Wily's evil programming was still a success, maybe more than Wily himself had dreamed. Only the timing of the situation is amiss.

When applying Inafune's statement, the first hypothesis includes only the circumstance of Wily's design failure at an unfortunate moment, denying Sigma or Cain's presence being necessary or even an influence in the change within him. The latter more heavily relies on the combination of Sigma's involvement in the scenario, damaging Zero's brain and inadvertently siphoning the virus programming into himself, possibly ejecting the spirit form of Wily as well. Without memories and bloodlust Zero can adapt himself anew to the world, but without Sigma being there to take advantage of Zero's momentary weakness there well could have been no such change for the long haired god of destruction.

67

X / Re: What did Lumine mean?

« on: October 02, 2009, 06:53:15 PM »

I don't have a messenger program, though it's been coming up a lot lately, maybe I will get one.

In the meantime, the beautiful thing about message boards is that there is no need to hurry. There's no time limit for replying, and as long as the board isn't reset it'll still be there, waiting. I didn't have time with vacation, job and school and everything else. Came back to it when the time and the willpower were right. There's no rush.

When examining Zero's mental capabilities, we must acknowledge how similar to Repliroids it truly is. With its mention in the questionable three keys, we must take into account the high probability of Zero's mental state being defined by the same "circuit" as X has.

Suffering circuit causes more suffering to fans than it seems to for reploids. If it had a mention in some other matter besides early concept material, I'd be more inclined to acknowledge it. Still, I don't mind brainstorming about it though.

If Suffering Circuit is the "true form" of the virus because the virus infects it in higher thinking robots, then Zero's viral DNA program should be essentially the anti-suffering circuit, that pushes the user to one side, or perhaps, to be uncaring towards either side. If Sigma damaged it, maybe the remaining portion operated more like a regular one, or Cain could have identified its damage and attempted to fix it, creating a unique hybrid circuit that yielded super high viral resistance.

I think Wily's joining forces with Sigma and Gate is quite genuine. He seems to truly like seeing others try and reach for the same goal as him. But all the same, he himself is not actively trying to achieve it anymore. Likewise, he can capture Zero at any time, but has not done so with much intensity. Wily kindly took a back seat in the grandiose plans that have unfolded, but just as easily he's the kind of person to suddenly take up action again and enter the stage casting away all his former bonds. In a very similar manner, Wily is contend seeing the world go to oblivion, but he also has no qualms seeing it saved.

If we never see Wily again in the X series, I think indeed the best explanation for his departure is that he has changed, or that Zero has changed him. Zero's power is shown a success in many ways, even against the "more advanced" and "stronger" forms that were applied in High Max and Gate, and perhaps even the ultimate battle body Wily built for Sigma in X5 was no match for him, depending on what Zero's role in that fight was. He validates Wily's genius, if not his ambition. If Wily's given up participating in villain stuff, it's because he's finally taken enough pride in Zero and respect for who Zero is to believe in something outside of himself again, like a true father caring for his son's well being over his own.

68

Zero / Re: MegaMan Zero, then and now.

« on: October 02, 2009, 06:18:40 PM »

However, at the time of writing, X's words were surely in reference to X as "the superior hunter" who can take care of things without Zero around.

And then Inti got the opportunity to write their own sealing scene with X actually present, so perhaps now it's in reference to Zero disappearing from the world indefinitely and bequeathing the future of it to X and the humans he believes in.

it's about peace having been achieved and Zero being the only aspect that remains to repeat the cycle of bloodshed. Zero was not talking about trusting X to take care of the world for he's already done so. He's solely talking about wanting to trust the humans in regards to his own evil.

The Elf Wars leaves the world in anything but a nice tidy package. Omega and Vile, though temporarily neutralized and removed, are far from out of the picture. The Dark Elf remains cursed, its power an ever present danger in the wrong hands, as are those of the baby elves, and only with continued vigilance can they be kept from the path of disaster. Cold sleep facilities harbor untold numbers of dangerous failed experiments. The world is a disaster zone and who knows what may be out there among the wreckage. These are things that Zero at the time of his sealing should already know. He is entrusting X to protect that tenuous peace and accomplish all that lays ahead. The second seal isn't the first time Zero's entertained notions that he's a danger to the peace, nor the first time that he's had faith that X will triumph over adversity even if he's out of the picture. The humans aren't telling him anything new in this, but they are putting a renewed pressure on him to do the "right" (according to them) thing. That X is completely against the whole thing could be a pretty decent contributor to the growing feelings of cold sadness and loneliness that contributed to his own desire to seal himself.

I wasn't talking about difficulty, I'm talking about quantity and frequency. No matter how you cut it, X's words fit more toward X6 than TELOS. Countless numbers, day after day, that is only true for the Irregular Wars. In the unstable times of Neo Arcadia's beginnings, we are dealing with enemy quantity and frequency relatively insignificant compared to the Irregular Wars. The irregular wars are a large stream of sad incidents, whereas the unstable beginnings of the utopia are more isolated incidents that occur at random.

Fighting certainly fits the mood of the Irregular Wars. Still, we don't known enough about the early days of NA to say it doesn't apply to that as well. It was initially the time after the wars had supposedly ended where this fighting occurs, so if they meant to change this to being applicable only to the first sealing when they split it up,  why introduce the idea that Zero was there for only half a century of study the first time? The seemingly contradictory notion defeats its usefulness as a plot work around. There's also the strangeness of X essentially rehashing gripes from over a century ago, where if it bothered him so much back then, Zero's return would have been the opportunity to work it out. Back then at least Zero actually remembered, and 100 years of peace is a lot of time away from that violence to heal. But far from showing that sadness, Telos has X appearing as idealistic as ever, showing mercy to dangerous enemies, refusing to accept Zero's sealing as necessary to avoid the cycle of violence, and even after that sad episode still continuing to follow his dream of a man and robot paradise. I could see the fighting being in reference to both, but as far as depression setting in, it makes more sense to me to be after. 

We do know that Neo Arcadia was so concerned about continued irregular activity that from its founding onward it has gone to great lengths to develop battle repliroids and weapons with which to defend the humans and the nation. Whether this was an overcompensating act of paranoia or a necessary measure for much of the time is not made entirely clear. Copy X brags that post-war humans have not reached such prosperity in the times before himself, which may be an ego trip, but may also be a clue of a less than ideal past. The humans don't seem to think they can get along without X, resulting in Copy X's creation and the subsequent need to cover up his death. He might be a symbolic crutch for society, but then again perhaps the fear in his absence is not wholly unjustified.

They likened it to the original Rockman's theme of all the bosses having a certain job

They also said that "The Four Guardians were initially created to assist in restoring the land after the war." Strictly speaking, bodyguarding doesn't improve the environment. So when talking about all four together, we can gather it's a generalization. Old Fightin' Fefnir, the only purpose he's ever been given is exactly that, and the Scorched Earth Op was itself designed as an anti-irregular project. Harpy and Levi work together controlling the weather, but neither Phantom nor Fefnir have been said to play such a part. It does apply to the Four Guardians, but not necessarily each of them individually. The theme is true, collectively they heal the planet, they safeguard the innocent, they're not supposed to be ruthless enforcers of a corrupt government preying upon the weak, they're good guys (and a gal) doing what their duty requires of them. Robots made with the best intentions becoming the tools of needless violence, the connection to Rockman 1. Following the passage too exactly would conclude that they never used their arms as weapons before the Resistance was formed, so their participation in the Irregular Wars or Elf Wars as combatants would be right out. On the other hand, if Aizu's focused on discussing the parallel to R1 by hilighting the similarities over the differences rather than intentionally retconning Phantom and Fefnir's previously explained roles, one less contradiction, and a little more wiggle room for everything else.

If we try to preserve that the Shining Arms were used by the Big 4 during the Irregular Wars, it's a somewhat limited setting for what they actually contributed. Not as recognized as X and Zero's heroism overall, the Elf Wars specifically seems to prohibit them interacting with Zero, Vile or Omega, and their resistance to Dark Elf's powers implies them not being a direct part of the Dark Elf controlled group battle strategy that ended the war. Then again that immunity can be useful if you're fighting against the Dark Elf or a Baby Elf controlling enemy, and there's enough room in a global fighting scenario for them to be somewhere even if it's nowhere around the location of the endgame. That their weapons were honored should mean they did do something worth praising. It would also mean that their tenure as pure environmentalists ended quite quickly if not practically before it began, though.

If the Shining Arms is a myth on the other hand they can just as easily not be there. Without more to go on, I'm fine either way.

69

Zero / Re: MegaMan Zero, then and now.

« on: September 29, 2009, 11:26:06 PM »

If there was any more solid reason why I consider X's words to be about the initial sealing (or at least a combination of both the seals as MMZOCW's 50 year study seems to favor), it is that X mentions that "Zero left the world to him".

In the comparison between X6 and TELOS, X6 is about finding a cure and leaving the world to a superior hunter, whereas TELOS is much more about removing Zero from the world because he wants to trust the humans X trusts. We must remember that Z1 was written from X6. It therefore strikes me as odd that TELOS did not reproduce this part of the scenario in order to maintain the uncertain status quo between the seals and X's words.

I get your meaning, but in the X6 sealing, X has no part. There's no tearful goodbye, no explanation, no inclusion of X in the scene at all besides in reference. It doesn't seem like the kind of think X would be absent from, which begs the question whether Zero didn't fail to consult him both times. We know X only caught the end word of the news and gets there just in time to say goodbye the second time around. During which, Zero tells X how much he trusts in him and what he believes in, so at least some level bequeathing is acknowledged for sure in this sealing.

In effect though, Zero is entrusting the world to X with either sealing. To X's protection, to X's judgment, for X to lead the world to peace and for Zero himself not to become an interference of that.

I think in X's 100 years of fighting, we have to remember the key difference between Z1 and Z2+ canon. That being Mother Elf. In the initial setting for Mother Elf, the Virus has not been taken out by a miracle cure, rather, Irregulars were simply controlled by her. Therefore, it's much more likely for Irregulars to return in the initial setting than in the final. Back then, it just seemed more likely for X to have fought even after the official war had ended by Sigma's death. Nowadays, it's very unlikely for a battle that matches the scale of X's words to happen after the Elf Wars.

Battles, not one large one but a long stream of sad ones. Sad and difficult doesn't have to mean it was difficult for him to defeat whoever these were, they can be sad because the circumstances for each should have been avoidable, or difficult because the ceaseless destruction of robotic life feels unending and such toll in what should be a time of peace weighs heavily.

There's the explicit mention that their weapons were not made for combat.

Which is pretty odd, isn't it? What non-combative usage do Phantom's shurikens fulfill? To ride them through the air while looking badass...? I guess.

Unless the statement applies primarily to Harpuia's and Leviathan's weapons as tools to interface with the orbiting mechaniloid satelite, and less so the others whose occupations seem to direct them in other ways.

However, when thinking about the story of Elf Wars, I feel that the Big4 have to be created before the Elf Wars so that these fan favorites can play their part.

If the Shining Arms is a myth, there isn't much of a scheduled part to play... The one thing I can think of that might be a sign they were around without simply fan service as the explanation is Cyber X knowing already that the Big 4 can't be controlled by Dark Elf. He might know by some other means, such as perhaps they were designed to be immune, or he realized it after it took 2 Baby Elves' powers combined to control the body of Harpiuia that their normal physiology makes them highly resistant, but it could also be because they were around way back when.

70

X / Re: How would you describe Sigma?

« on: September 29, 2009, 10:40:02 PM »

If he comes back in X9, we'll know we didn't have to worry about it.

71

X / Re: What did Lumine mean?

« on: September 29, 2009, 10:37:14 PM »

Okay, here we go.  Again, I feel this discussion has reached the point of both of us explaining personal opinion until we're bored to death, and I've long since passed that point.  So I'll just chime in at some key lines and leave it at that, this discussion has already gotten unproductive to me.  We both know where the other's opinion lies and re-stating it over and over isn't going to get us anywhere.

Hype, I was hoping you were going to impress me, but I can't even tell from that reply if you even bothered to read my entire post. I've provided references and written out translations to support my points and to refute other ones. I have explored questions you asked and asked more of my own. I've done nothing but restate my opinion? It's all unproductive? If you don't bother reading it, then perhaps it is for you, though others can still read, learn, and draw their own conclusions. Why do you keep coming back if you're so bored with it? I like the topic. I think back and forth is the only way to find flaws with one's reasoning and arrive at a better solution. That's not just me challenging you, it's you challenging me. If you don't care, you don't have to continue with me. But if you do come back, I hope you give it your all instead of prefacing your arguments with excuses of disinterest.

An entirely separate debate which we argued to a stalemate, however I do not believe one should be trying to logically apply gameplay and cutscene logic in the same manner.  You could have a field day with quite a few games that way.  Thus notions of Zero's gameplay abilities in MHX are irrelevant.

Gameplay can't be taken on its own, but it is impossible to shun entirely, many things are only expressed through it, because we are dealing with a game. I'm getting a big double standard vibe from you here. Awakened Zero's attacks are story related, and Omega Zero's attacks are proof he's weaker, but Zero's abilities in MHX aren't relevant at all? A little hypocritical, isn't it?

If we're to presume Wily is pursuing world domination during his alliance with Gate, as you have previously argued, then this already happened when Zero fought High Max.  And Wily not only did not care, but was delighted.

I give Isoc fair credit to be excited his masterpiece fought so well despite the setback. But flushing Zero out was part of the game for him all along, and he is (finally) prepared this time against Zero's meddling, so the risk Zero actually poses in that situation is severely minimized. Despite this he won't endanger his joint plan with Gate for his personal goal here, despite the opportunity. And yes, we've talked about it before.

At any rate, I do not imagine Wily would be so giddy when Awakened Zero gets up and defends X after that battle, or when he destroys the colony without Awakening at all. Sigma yuks it up when he loses at times, too, doesn't mean he didn't play for serious (except maybe in X5's intro).

Bear in mind that Zero is derived in some manner from Bass, I don't think a similarity between them would be odd at all.

I'm bearing in mind that Wily acknowledges Bass' willfulness and disobedience as regretfully annoying and that disloyalty is something that needs to be ensured against.

Sigma claims that Zero is meant to follow him.  I do not consider him a reliable source as to Zero's true nature.

Is that untrue? Serges and Wily stand by Sigma, and the evilly revived Zero does the same when things go according to their plans.

He has gotten a peek at it, however, which is more than any non-Wily-linked entity can say for themselves during the X-series, so X8's Complete Guide doesn't really tell us much.  Sigma lusts for power, and sees untapped power within Zero.  I don't see why it has to go any deeper than that.

Sigma has researched Zero himself, Sigma has contact and conspired with Zero's creator, Sigma has Zero's DNA within itself and recognizes that it has changed him... how do these facts not make the connection much deeper than that already?

There is a bit of a trickle-down effect here from our differing views on Wily's allegiance to the evil big-shots of 21XX.  You believe him to be honestly working towards the goals of Sigma and Gate and as such there is less room for doubt in second-hand information.  I do not.  That heavily impacts the reliability of Sigma's words.  But even if this was not the case it would not be absolute, since there is the eternal question of how much Sigma saw/was told and how much he is assuming.

Skepticism is healthy, but Sigma's words and Wily's intentions need to fit into a bigger picture, and doubting them for the sake of doubting them is only useful if one can draw a conclusion from it that works as a theory to satisfy the plot. Occam's shaving kit, the best theory is the one with the fewest contradictions (preferably none). I base that belief on the supporting foundation that it integrates with. Nothing in the book quote I provided speaks against directly his understanding as being accurate. Wily's actions, not what he might do but what he actually does in X2 and X5 in supporting Sigma do not contradict the notion of helping him, or that Zero is a tool for world domination, nor does his Power Fighters ending. That destroying X is all he should do is not a contradiction but a reinforcement of what Zero's role in world domination was always intended to be, to crush the greatest threat to the plans (currently X), and any other hero who may stand in the way (previously Rock and Bass). If Wily does not wish to rule the world anymore, he still wants Zero to win against X, thus his partnership with Sigma towards that end is genuine. If Wily does want to rule the world, AND if for some reason Wily can't cooperate on this with Sigma (a contradiction to Sigma's assessment of how awesome they work together), Wily may betray him, but only after they have succeeded, which still entails that to succeed to get to that point he is working with Sigma in earnest, even if he has a plan to doublecross. In this event following Sigma statement is still accurate, except that it extends to only so long as Wily is on Sigma's side, and because such a scenario is proof that Wily hasn't given up his ambitions, Sigma's assertion that Zero was intended to be the world destroyer is still true.

I have a hard time believing that Weil succeeded where Wily failed.

Weil literally became dictator of the world, far more than Wily had yet ever managed while alive or as a robo-ghost.  In some ways, Weil is Wily made dangerously competent. Not literally, but in the role he plays as the mad scientist villain is just way more serious. Some mad scientists try to take over the world and dream of revenge, but Wiel actually gets to do it. He might only rule for the better half of the year, but that's a lot more King of the World time than Wily, Sigma, or Gate ever had. Having a Zero that actually follows his orders is another reflection of that.

I don't believe that Zero's "justice" self is without relevance to Wily's design, or that Wily honestly attempted to remove it outright.  To override/push it aside, that's another matter.

But, why? What makes you think Wily wanted it that way? How is it that to Wily's benefit? The better half of my last post was to probe just how that makes any sense to say, in particular when it is contradictory to other evidence in the narrative. Don't tell me you believe it, I already know. Justify your belief.

There's a lot to take into account, though.  For one thing the assumption that Wily hasn't had a change of heart over the course of Zero's development is in and of itself a rather large one, given that Rockman World II already established other possibilities (would go a long way to explaining the interchangeable busters).

Is your method of refuting the ending narrative of Power Fighters and the implication of Perfect Memories is to pretend it doesn't exist, in favor of pretending that the World 2 future is unchangeable despite that we're literally told that time travel can change the future?

Interchangeable busters because they were designed to be buddies raises far more immediate questions than it answers. As in, why Dr. Light holo doesn't know Zero's creator, why he can't build armors for Zero when their designs are clearly interconnected and interchangeable, how did Light and Wily get together on these projects after they were already started, and how did the nature of this suddenly joint project end? History remembers Wily as the villain, the legendary mad scientist, the man whose deplorable antics Dr. Light makes reference to in his warnings, Power Fighters foreshadowed he's not quitting, so on top of the above, how does this explanation satisfy the facts better than the several other more mundane explanations?

There's also the fact that a virtuous personna can more likely live and battle without being hunted down.  Zero, like X, grows more powerful through combat.  If he spent his entirely life as a destructive force it'd make him a target, possibly hindering his progress depending on how the current-day technology compares to his own performance.

Zero learns through battle, so he should avoid battle? Putting down more enemies means more skills, well, if the robots he's fighting have skills worth learning from. If they're no threat, they're no threat whether they hunt him or not. If they are a threat, Zero is at risk whether he's fighting heroes or villains, and there's no rationale that Zero needs to be heroic to not destroy everything he comes across, only for there to be instructions not to do so if that ever was a worry.

As for Zero starting out evil, that could be a necessity of him being the initial virus carrier.  Then there's the infamous blue-gem-of-death.  Zero wasn't beaten fair and square in X4, a mysterious W on his head stopped him.  Given that Inafune has stated that the virus ties to Wily's revival, there is a LOT of room for speculation as to what was going on there.

And do you have a theory which ties this together with the discussion, or contradict what I believe, or are you just throwing in with the unknown?

Either way it is fact that Weil had a hand in Omega's programming.  Without the ability to differentiate what Weil did and did not write, we cannot take traits from one and apply them to the other, rather the two must be judged as individuals.  That's been my point all along.  Statements such as "they're the same character with a different master" are highly speculative, and I personally believe, false.

My point at the start was that they do have similarities, and are suggested as similar in fact by the game creators, and by analyzing Zero and his connections given through the stories and sources, we gain greater insight. This was not even an assertion of fact, mind you, but one of possibility, and probability. There are no facts to prove that Omega cannot share Zero's personality with that programming change, or even further since Awakening is a temptation existing within Zero and a choice to be embraced, that he himself could choose it. So do you believe it because it honestly makes the most sense as deductive reasoning from the story and that Inti doesn't know what they're talking about and Inafune's statement connecting the two was completely misleading... or do you just plain not like it?

Of course not.  But I find Omega to specialize more in longevity than in offense.  The mass destruction associated with him is generally attributed to Weil's armor.  In one-on-one combat, I don't see Omega (that is, Zero body) as matching AZ.

Like I already said, but failed to quote so I'll do so now, guidebooks suggest Omega Zero is the "strongest" form of the villain, like in the Zero 3 Kanzen Kouryakubon, page 131.
巨大化したオメガを倒したゼロに、最強の敵が迫る！！
Zero's defeated the giant Omega, but the strongest enemy now draws near!!

The armor rocks fighting and mass destruction, and the giant form even better, but for one on one, third form is the God O.D.  Is there any reason besides your take on gameplay to say he can't hold his own with AZ?

I doubt it canonically renders Zero invulnerable given the lack of visual effects.  I do not doubt that it would canonically annihilate whatever is unfortunate enough to get caught in the attack, again, given that once you see it victory is impossible.

Again, you reach the conclusion because of gameplay, which you've already said is faulty and once already denied its usefulness for comparisons outright. Outside of gameplay, one hit from a beam blade weapon in the right spot is often all a character gets. So one hit kill, 2-dimensional world, no way to win, should be weighed with a grain of canon salt, right?

I have to object to that.  It is far more of a challenge to intentionally view Genmurei than it is to prevent it, as the time it takes before Zero will use it is ridiculously long.  Genmurei strikes me not as a challenge but as an easter egg, in reference to Sigma's line of Zero "almost" evolving into his true self.  I cannot imagine anyone has ever seen it unless they were intentionally stalling.

I don't disagree that it seems more difficult for me to actually wait the 2-3 minutes without killing him for the attack to arrive, but a time limit gimmick that is literally how it's presented in the X5 Hisshou Kouryakuhou, even if it is probably more generous than skilled players should need to put away such a boss. But given time limits to win against a boss are often well within range to skilled players anyway, unless you're doing an uncharged buster run. One could also look upon it as the programmers giving players who toy with AZ a little punishment for making a mockery of him. Still, I suppose there may also be players out there somewhere who've literally taken the entire time fighting in earnest. Granted, I don't think I've met them yet.

Sigma's funerary line for Zero didn't go the same in the J-version, and was addressed in my reply above (seriously, did you read it?) Awakened Zero wasn't almost his true self, he was is it. Or, so Sigma believes in the Japanese story. I find it funny that you give Sigma so little credit to make reliable statements about Zero's true self, yet you latched onto that one. If you believed that Sigma's understanding of Zero is bogus, why did you trust him there? After shown to be a mistranslation, do you still trust his original judgment on the matter?

High Max WAS invulnerable.  Completely.  There was absolutely nothing X could do to harm him.  Next bout, X's buster stuns him, a definite leg up from before.  So even in such utter hopelessness X can still prevail in due time.  But if High Max obtained such status (temporarily), then why couldn't Awakened Zero (again, temporarily)?  Especially since High Max is himself a Zero derivative.

I have no problem with temporarily invulnerability for Awakened Zero, even good Zero gets such a boost from the virus in gameplay, and Gate's developed shield system for High Max and eventually is an improved version of what he derived from Zero's DNA, though perhaps none of these are true invincibility, just protection from certain modes of attack. Omega has a move he can't be harmed during too. A lot of bosses do, actually, and even geting hit can invoke temporary invincibility for the player and bosses as well, which somewhat diminishes the impressiveness unless we try to narrow down certain times when its presence is actually relevant.

I was actually contending with the notion that when Zero is truly Awakened, he is suddenly invincible all the time and with an attack that vastly outpowers X and even Omega because of it. After all, he was Awakened already.

The general superior prowess with the saber as opposed to the buster flies in the face of that regardless.  I believe you mentioned earlier the possible lack of optimization in the X1 body.  Throughout both X6 and Z1 it is made abundantly clear that the Z-Saber is linked to Zero's power.

Zero does pretty well with a lot of weapons, X8 and the Zero series shows he sometimes even apply skills he learns to them in a unique way. Beam swords are the standard of cool, but even the anachronistic Zero plans from Power Fighters don't show him with one. X4's flashback showed us that he's competent with steel poles early on, so lets figure that Zero has basic skills with many weapons, and his learning system can allow him to make an even greater mastery of such weapons, since that follows the progression of how Zero actually utilizes his saber over time.  Zero champions the sword, as does Omega, but neither one is limited to its use nor is powerless without it. Don't confuse favoring a weapon with being the source of one's power.

So, anyway....

Zan's request, props for Rod yet again! Cropped for relevance/laziness...

(final monologue before second round)
Sigma: I'm right here, I won't run or hide... The truth is, lately I've had an excellent partner.... who's provided me support in many ways. In the past, it seems [he's] created countless robots... And [he's] bestowed upon me the strongest body ever seen... You've come a little earlier than expected, so it isn't quite complete... but, it should be enough. [He's] been such a devoted partner, nay, a comrade...  [He] may oppose you more than anything... like an obsession... devoted indeed... So there was someone besides just me... someone who hates you... Get ready to receive our hatred! Die! X!

"He" is in brackets because Sigma doesn't specify the gender of his partner to X, unlike Zero's version which is specifically an old man. Although "comrade" is the million dollar term that was misapplied to X in the official translation, if it were up to me, I would have probably chosen "companion" instead. But then combined with "partner" and "devoted" I'd probably be accused by Rod as being another Boco. In Japan it's okay for male friends to talk this way about each other. Please divert all "Sigma x Wily robo-manlove" comments to a separate thread, this one's long enough as it is.

Edit: Fixed 4 typos.

72

Zero / Re: Was Copy X really evil?

« on: September 29, 2009, 01:59:06 AM »

If this is before Zero begins Sub Arcadia, how can X know and talk of Vile's brainwashing as happening before he even begins it?... This does not add up to me.

X knows what Dark Elf is capable of and remembers the Elf Wars. His belief is that Weil will attempt to repeat the tragedy of the Elf Wars, he said as much already previously during the game, just didn't go into as much detail in front of Zero. X says it's probably already begun, denoting in fact that he does not know, but that time is of the essence, and by the time he gets back, he's right, it has started.

Finally, Phantom considers Zero as capable of defeating Omega. Whereas before his battle with him, he was uncertain if Zero could even be considered a hero.

Phantom knows of Zero's past, but still wishes to experience the strength of Zero's resolve through battle. The test of the hero. This is how he "helps" Zero.

Got a quote for this? I don't quite see it in the translation I have at hand.

What translation are you reading from, anyway? I know it isn't one of mine.

ファントム     ・・我が闇は・・御身以外の光にお仕えすることはございませぬ。
きゃつが人とレプリロイドを守護するまことの刃（やいば）たりえるのか・・拙者にできるのは・・ただそれを見極めることのみ。
拙者もまた・・刃なれば。
サイバーＸ    変わらないね・・君は。
ファントム    たやすく変わるようなものは、忠義とは呼べませぬ。
サイバーＸ    わかった。君のその揺るがない心、信じるよ。
ぼくも信じてる。ゼロはきっとすべてを乗り越えてくれると。

Phantom: ...My darkness... serves no other light than yours. Is the truth of his blade enough to protect humans and repliroids...? All I am able to do... is merely to ascertain this truth for myself. If I once again... become to the blade...
Cyber X: You never change... do you.
Phantom: One who changes easily can never be called loyal.
Cyber X: I understand. I trust in that unwavering heart of yours. Trust in me, as well. Zero will surely overcome anything.

Phantom is determined to see Zero's true character in battle, which is exactly what he does. X allows this, because he's sure Zero will prove himself, and tells Phantom as much.

He alludes to it again in Will 3.
ファーブニル     おい。おめえはどうすんだ、ファントム？
ファントム    闇漂うは我が定め。拙者にはここでなすべきことがある。

Fafnir: Hey! What're you gonna do, Phantom?
Phantom: My destiny drifts in the darkness. There is still something that I must do here.

73

X / Re: What did Lumine mean?

« on: September 29, 2009, 12:42:29 AM »

You're tellin' me.

Although, this was pretty much a direct reply to only 2 other posts. The wait is more for the research that was involved and my busy schedule. I don't really mind if just the hardcore bother to read my ramblings. I still enjoy doing it.

74

Zero / Re: Was Copy X really evil?

« on: September 29, 2009, 12:17:12 AM »

Will 1 explains that Fafnir and Leviathan have serious wounds from their fight with Omega, but are not receiving proper care, resources and personnel have been diverted to some other project due to Weil and Copy X's orders. Then they fell into a deep sleep, during which their souls enter the datastream. Since Will 2 seems to lead into Will 3 and so that X doesn't have to be 2 places at once, Will 2 should likely take place after the Copy X fight, and end at whatever time Fafnir and Leviathan are felt entering Cyberspace. Will 3 ends before X has to show up to protect the Resistance base from Dark Elf's control. It is definitely before Sub Arcadia and Phantom's reduel with Zero in Cyberspace.

With Zero taking down Omega and the direct tie in of Will2 to Wil3/4, how could the conversation from Will2 be at the very beginning?... Not to mention, Will2->4 are automatically long after the intro because they have to happen after Will1 to account for Fefnir and Leviathan.

Not the very beginning, I misspoke that one, more towards the middle, just after the middle point really, which is not so much the beginning at all, although my line of confusion was because I was thinking that Fafnir and Levi's Cyberspace adventure would have been closer to the time that they actually received their wounds, rather than later on. Checking the tracks versus X's appearance during the games, the time they drift off can be later rather than sooner and does fit better towards the end.

Anyhow, Phantom specifically sites his intent to challenge Zero again. And he suspects that Fafnir and Levi's wounds are from being defeated Omega, not that Omega was defeated. Huge difference.

Thanks to http://circled6.net/zero/drama/zero3-7.htm for the text...
サイバーＸ     この感じは・・彼らだね。
ファントム    オメガとやらに敗れたか・・。
サイバーＸ    おそらくは・・。行こう、ファントム。
ファントム    御意。


Cyber X: This feeling... it must be them.
Phantom: Have they been defeated by Omega...?
Cyber X: I fear you may be right... Let's go, Phantom.
Phantom: By your will.

75

X / Re: What did Lumine mean?

« on: September 28, 2009, 10:51:10 PM »