RockmanPM Forums
Rockman & Community => Rockman Series => Topic started by: Treleus on September 06, 2012, 01:46:30 PM
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http://www.rockmancorner.com/2012/09/dont-expect-bad-box-art-mega-man-game.html
I've been engaging in an argument with one or two people from the comments section of this article. Our contention is that they consider BBAMM to be an irredeemable insult to Mega Man because of bad timing and being ugly, whereas I recognize BBAMM as a fun, lighthearted joke that Mega Man fans should not be taking offense over. My argument is couched in the notion that people who are not necessarily Mega Man fans and who have played/enjoyed Street Fighter X Tekken actually love BBAMM for his silly novelty: a last-minute marketing flub cooked up to sell a new Japanese character to a Western audience. Ironically, I think BBAMM is in a position to do just that, but for real this time. And the best way he's doing that is by providing a comic foil to the same tired stereotypes of purity, heroics, and justice that we see in damn near every Mega Man hero we idolize. That people seem to be taking offense at this character's existence seems like nothing more than a convenient outlet of anger for something completely unrelated: the cancellation of Legends 3. I agree that they have every right to be mad at Capcom for how Legends 3 was handled, and I join them wholeheartedly. But BBAMM? He's a joke. People should treat him like one and lighten the [tornado fang] up.
What do you all think, true believers?
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Its a joke that would have been fine if.not for recent bullshit. Its also gone on too long, since mm 9. Then sf x t gives us the most insulting version of him. A fat mockery that has the legends backstory. It migt have gone over better if not.for l3s cancellation..
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The game is called Street Fighter x Tekken, not Capcom x Namco.
There's no real reason for Megaman to appear at all in the first place so his joke form isn't surprising and makes sense since he was just supposed to be a fun addition, especially in contrast to his Namco counterpart Pacman who can't really be considered a serious entry himself.
I've never had a problem with it and I've found BAMM in general to be pretty amusing. People are just overreacting to something completely unrelated and still are over something that happened over a year ago now.
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I really [tornado fang]ing hate this idea that people aren't allowed to dislike ANYTHING, for any reason whatsoever.
It doesn't matter what game BBAMM showed up in; is it not to much to ask that Capcom demonstrate some goddamn tact and not include a "joke" that recent events have made uncomfortable at best?
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Is it too much to ask to lighten up and not be over-sensitive? You can like or dislike all you want, but there's no need for drama.
The idea that the use of BBAMM in any capacity would make Mega Man fans cry just makes me laugh. It's ridiculous. I don't care what time it is, because it doesn't matter.
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I don't mind if people like BBAMM; it's when they try to shame the ones who didn't into finding a poorly-timed joke funny that I get angry.
And you can argue all you want that timing doesn't matter...but it obviously does. As I keep saying, I wouldn't mind BBAMM if we didn't get him when we did, and I'm not alone in that.
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I don't doubt it. Nevertheless, I think the timing argument is an excuse, not a justification, because BBAMM has nothing to do with Legends 3. Disliking it is fine, but take it for what it is: a good-hearted joke. That's all it is.
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BBAMM has a backstory that's incredibly similar to Trigger's, and given how long ago he was planned, was likely meant to reference both MML3 and Universe. He does indeed have something to do with MML3.
And no, "timing" is not an excuse. I've already tried to tell you why, but my words just seem to keep bouncing off your skull.
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>bouncing off your skull
I could use the same retort with respect to you and my entire spiel, but let's not patronize each other.
The borrowing of the Legends backstory is the sliver of justification that seems to be holding up this outrage besides projection. That isn't enough for me. It is a weird decision, but not an entirely offensive one. I could understand how it would've rubbed people the wrong way at the time, but it's time to get over it. Once again, BBAMM didn't kill Legends 3 anymore than SFxT did. We need to dissociate our disappointment with Legends 3 from BBAMM--something that we know had already been formulated beforehand to commemorate the cancelled game, yes, but this is also a cameo character in a completely unrelated context. We need to consider how and to whom Mega Man is being exposed to thru BBAMM in this context. It's simply not for us.
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BBAMM was supposed to tie into Universe and Legends 3, fyi.
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We need to dissociate our disappointment with Legends 3 from BBAMM
BBAMM is a freaking partial reference to MML3. It's kinda hard to completely dissociate BBAMM from MML3 when his back-story is more-or-less exactly like Trigger's.
I'm sorry if I'm coming across as equally stubborn, but you're not even trying to understand how people could have such a negative reaction to BBAMM, instead writing off anything that could possibly explain it as an "excuse".
I know that BBAMM's meant to poke fun at how MM was localized in the past, or at least the MM1 boxart, and that not everyone will be bothered by timing or even know the context. I'm fine with that. What really pissed me off when BBAMM was revealed were all the people who, whether they thought so or not, were treating their opinion as objective fact and yelling at everyone who didn't like BBAMM.
Minus the yelling, that's about what's going on here. Anyone who doesn't like BBAMM is a humourless [dark hold] who is repulsed by the very idea of "fun" and not, you know, annoyed with Capcom's decision to go through with BBAMM even after both of the games he referenced were cancelled, thus making the joke thoughtless at best.
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BBAMM is a freaking partial reference to MML3. It's kinda hard to completely dissociate BBAMM from MML3 when his back-story is more-or-less exactly like Trigger's.
No it isn't. It's easy if you try.
I'm sorry if I'm coming across as equally stubborn, but you're not even trying to understand how people could have such a negative reaction to BBAMM, instead writing off anything that could possibly explain it as an "excuse".
Yes I am. I do understand why people would react negatively to BBAMM at the time, like I've already said. The problem here is that you don't agree with my conclusion as to why, which is fine. Agree to disagree, I guess.
I know that BBAMM's meant to poke fun at how MM was localized in the past, or at least the MM1 boxart, and that not everyone will be bothered by timing or even know the context. I'm fine with that. What really pissed me off when BBAMM was revealed were all the people who, whether they thought so or not, were treating their opinion as objective fact and yelling at everyone who didn't like BBAMM.
This is implying that it's okay to see BBAMM as both an insult and a joke at the same time; that everyone is right and no one is wrong. I'm afraid I disagree. I think it's wrong to see BBAMM as an insult. I don't think it's wrong to dislike it, but I think it's wrong to take it as anything other than a joke, poor taste or not. Jokes either make you laugh or fall flat and are forgotten.
Minus the yelling, that's about what's going on here. Anyone who doesn't like BBAMM is a humourless [dark hold] who is repulsed by the very idea of "fun" and not, you know, annoyed with Capcom's decision to go through with BBAMM even after both of the games he referenced were cancelled, thus making the joke thoughtless at best.
You're misconstruing my argument, and the very premise of this thread. The title isn't "It Dumbfounds Me that People Don't Like BBAMM," it's "It Dumbfounds Me that People Find BBAMM Offensive." It's a subtle difference that nevertheless informs the tone and theme of the discussion differently from mere taste in jokes. It's the difference between a joke (unrelated to Legends 3's cancellation as opposed to it's existence) and an insult. That most of us seem to strongly be taking it as the latter is only making us look worse and breeding frivolous embitterment.
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It's easy if you try.
Didn't I just say why it wasn't?
I think it's wrong to see BBAMM as an insult. I don't think it's wrong to dislike it, but I think it's wrong to take it as anything other than a joke, poor taste or not.
That doesn't make it right to completely dismiss people's negative reactions to it.
You're misconstruing my argument, and the very premise of this thread. The title isn't "It Dumbfounds Me that People Don't Like BBAMM," it's "It Dumbfounds Me that People Find BBAMM Offensive."
You might've gotten me there, but I figured that by definition, if something offends you, then you aren't going to like it. Didn't want to sound like a broken record (though I'm pretty sure that I failed at that anyway).
It's the difference between a joke (unrelated to Legends 3's cancellation as opposed to it's existence) and an insult.
Jokes can be taken as insults, and if you don't get that now, you probably never will.
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Didn't I just say why it wasn't?
That's what I was rebutting.
That doesn't make it right to completely dismiss people's negative reactions to it.
Was I being dismissive about initial reactions? I don't think so. We're well past that point by now.
You might've gotten me there, but I figured that by definition, if something offends you, then you aren't going to like it..
But the converse doesn't apply: if you don't like something, that doesn't mean it's going to offend you. Taking offense, I think, is more an action than a reaction. With BBAMM, I don't see a good enough reason to be offended by him, or the prospect of him being promoted. Dislike it, sure, but offense?
Jokes can be taken as insults, and if you don't get that now, you probably never will.
See above.
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Just to break up the back and forth between gonz and trelus... I never found bbamm offensive, just a joke with an unfortunate background. It was just tactless joke. It came of as insulting at first but after learning its story, just unfortunate.
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With BBAMM, I don't see a good enough reason to be offended by him
If nothing I say will ever be good enough, then I don't see the point of continuing this argument.
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Hey, that's up to you. As far as I'm concerned, I'm just saiyan.
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I think offended is the wrong word here. IMO, the more appropriate emotion would be " insulted ". Feeling. Insulted as a loyal fan.
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Here's my take on things: Don't hate the character just because games you were looking forward to got cancelled. Yes, it's extremely disheartening that Capcom decided to cancel not one, not two, but three games (if you count Rockman Online) that would have been just the shot in the arm the series needed to get back on track and back in the spotlight. But you know what? It's not the old man's fault the games got cancelled.
On the topic of MEGA MAN (intentionally written in all-caps), or "Bad Box Art Mega Man..." he was never intended to be or replace Classic Rockman or even American Mega Man. (The angry, muscly midget on the cover of Mega Man 3 and onward.) He was never intended to be "the one and only Rockman." He wasn't a rebranding, or a relaunching of the series that started it all. MEGA MAN was supposed to be a tongue-in-cheek joke to Capcom USA's unique representation of and tenuous grasp on the various canons early on. (Remember "Monsteropolis?")
Alternately, you can think of him as A parody. Kind of like how Konami made Kid Dracula as "Dracula" as a kid. Or how they made the entire Parodius franchise. ... or are those insults to their respective characters and games, too? I can never be too sure these days. :B
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Don't hate the character just because games you were looking forward to got cancelled.
The character IS A REFERENCE TO THOSE CANCELLED GAMES.
And not all parodies are insults to the things they're parodying; this one just came at a bad time. And don't try to tell me that timing has no effect on how something's perceived.
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I'll hand it to you that it was bad timing. What I won't hand to you is that it should be held against the character anymore. Or is he still bad timing?
I guess he is, considering that we don't have a Mega Man game yet that'll placate us, but what I'm saying is what if a game comes out starring him that we could all enjoy? Would we choose not to enjoy it because we still feel BBAMM is in poor taste? In that case, it would seem like a total waste. Can we afford to be that picky at this point?
I'm not saying we should shut up about what we want, but we should probably be a little more open minded about what other people want, or what we could get.
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What I won't hand to you is that it should be held against the character anymore.
You know, at this point I've stopped caring about BBAMM. I still don't appreciate Capcom's lack of tact, and I REALLY wish one of those other designs got picked instead, but BBAMM himself I can't really muster up much rage for now.
but we should probably be a little more open minded about what other people want, or what we could get.
Megaman Xover looks to be so phoned-in that Capcom actually put negative effort into it. I would be more open-minded about something they actually gave a [parasitic bomb] about.
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The character IS A REFERENCE TO THOSE CANCELLED GAMES.
And not all parodies are insults to the things they're parodying; this one just came at a bad time. And don't try to tell me that timing has no effect on how something's perceived.
Don't put words in my mouth, or I'll sick Roll on you. She's pretty mean with that broom of hers. XP
Seriously though, you quoted the key statement of what I said: Don't hate the character just because games got cancelled. While it's absolutely true that "Bad Box Art Mega Man" initially started as a character in Mega Man Universe, he really didn't have any defining qualities to him, other than looking like an American drawing of an Asian guy in funky armor. (Which is more or less how the Mega Man box art looked like.) And then along came MEGA MAN in Street Fighter x Capcom. Visually, he was a fat, old version of Bad Box Art Mega Man, but story-wise, he was Rock Volnutt. Naturally, for most everyone, this was outrageous and served only as a reminder of what they would never have the chance to play.
However, he was more than just the sum of his parts. And still is.
But if you want to stick to the "Capcom did this just to [acid burst] people off" defense, go for it. Just bear in mind, he was planned to be included in Street Fighter X Tekken practically since the beginning -- long before there was even any consideration in cancelling Mega Man Universe. Could Capcom have removed him from the game? Absolutely. But they decided to go ahead and risk it. And hopefully, they learned from it. Though I doubt it.
Edit: I'm also not saying "don't hate MEGA MAN." I'm just saying I may not agree with why you hate him.
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Seriously though, you quoted the key statement of what I said: Don't hate the character just because games got cancelled.
He's still a sorta-living reminder of what we could've been looking forward to, and it's very hard to separate that from him. As for the character himself, doesn't he come across as a bumbling coward? Even if one disassociates references, there isn't much to like.
But if you want to stick to the "Capcom did this just to [acid burst] people off" defense
I don't think it was deliberate trolling (though I could certainly understand why people would think that). Capcom still should've known that going with the design they did even after everything that happened in-between its approval and the release of SFxT could potentially raise a shitstorm (which it did). They've really got no excuse for that lapse in forethought (oh sure, maybe they put too much work into the model to throw it out--but surely they could've tweaked it without losing the groundwork).
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Megaman Xover looks to be so phoned-in that Capcom actually put negative effort into it. I would be more open-minded about something they actually gave a [parasitic bomb] about.
I agree that Xover looks like D-grade [parasitic bomb], but for all we know, it could be a hit with the iOS crowd. I think MMXiOS sold pretty well after it's price dropped. If there are enough iOS Mega Man fans who are either desperate, have kids, or are blithely accepting, they'll probably grab the game up. Capcom's experimenting with the mobile gaming front right now. They're not going a great job, but they're nevertheless experimenting.
But anyways, I was just talking about BBAMM, let alone Xover.
The character himself is a washed up nobody with a big heart and big dreams. He also does whatever Roll tells him to do, like climb mountains or something looking (digging) for treasure.
Speaking of the people behind SFxT, I think this is a good time to bring up that Capcom doesn't necessarily work like a centralized hive mind. There are projects conducted by separate groups and led by different people at any given time. They're the ones to make these kinds of calls, and not necessarily Capcom Heads. Before this all started, I think this was something that Inafune either asked for or thought was pretty funny and good-hearted. That was a more hopeful time, though. Now, I'm not even sure if the guys behind SFxT were even paying attention to Legends 3, but I'd be surprised if they weren't.
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He's still a sorta-living reminder of what we could've been looking forward to, and it's very hard to separate that from him.
I honestly don't see how you can't considering backstory aside, MEGA MAN is nothing like any of the others. It's extremely easy to separate them.
[spoiler]Who the hell pays attention to the backstory of fighting game characters anyway?[/spoiler]
As for the character himself, doesn't he come across as a bumbling coward? Even if one disassociates references, there isn't much to like.
Do you not understand what a joke character is...?
Capcom still should've known that going with the design they did even after everything that happened in-between its approval and the release of SFxT could potentially raise a shitstorm (which it did).
People are still bitching about Legends 3, in comparison the 'BAMM fiasco' is almost non-existent.
And honestly with the way the fanbase is now, they would have found something else to [sonic slicer] about.
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Honestly I don't mind Bad Box Art Megaman at all, though I do agree that the timing was just horrible and I didn't know he had the Legends back story so that does add salt on the wound.
As Assemu said before it's not a Capcom Vs game it's a Street Fight Vs game so I have no idea why they would put him in as a joke character. I'm disappointed that Capcom would do something like this thinking this would be joke, it really shows that they aren't in touch with the fans anymore, and unfortunately BBAMM is one the receiveing end of that.
I think it would have been better if he was in MvC3 or something and had a different story like wanting his own game, similar to Asagi in the Nippon Icchi Software games, but first he had to prove he was rough and tough before he could get it and at the end he gets a contract. I definitely would have love that more than what's happening to him now. It's a shame BBAMM could have been great but the current Capcom doesn't know what their doing anymore. I honestly feel sorry for BBAMM's treatment by the fans because of this but it really make sense why they hate him with the way he was handled.
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Do you not understand what a joke character is...?
I do, but I don't think he was a well-timed joke character. And just because something's a joke, doesn't mean I have to think it's funny.
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Never said you had to find it funny. I just didn't think it was worth getting offended over. I'll understand disliking it or getting peeved towards it because of timing, but no offense meant, none should be taken.
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im sure this was said many times but Ono originally wanted Classic Rock but Inafune wanted him to use BBAMM because he's wonky and fun.
But of course, the timing was really bad (was originally meant to promote Legends 3 and Universe), and it sent the wrong message to the fans.
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Totally doable.
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Well done, O-Man.
(http://files.sharenator.com/93a29064_Slow_Clap_Your_Pokemon_is_in_danger-s400x300-291489-535.gif)
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Never said you had to find it funny. I just didn't think it was worth getting offended over. I'll understand disliking it or getting peeved towards it because of timing, but no offense meant, none should be taken.
of.fen.sive adj
causing displeasure or resentment <offensive remarks>
Frankly, I find that comment offensive.
Put away the pitchfork for a moment. You're assuming that being "offended" specifically denotes an extreme and overzealous reaction, a violent retaliation and/or a desire to abolish, or at the very least, some accusation of malice by the offending party. None of that is by any means true. I may take offense to the fact that you are telling others how to feel, but that doesn't mean I'm going to join a bandwagon against you, ostracize you, otherwise be a dick to you, encourage my friends to boycott your business, or any other such nonsense. Holding intelligent and constructive conversations with you does not require that you personally approve of my feelings, and there's no reason for me to pretend that it does. Finding something offensive is a personal, subjective matter. To what extent that offense goes and what type of reaction it warrants, that too, is up to the individual.
Parodies are only funny if they are not being passed as a replacement for the original work, otherwise they are seen as ridicule. And that's why many a gamer find BBAMM to be offensive: Because the "genuine" Mega Man has been MIA in video games for the last couple of years after numerous lost opportunities. It should come as no surprise that context plays a huge part in what does and doesn't bother someone. For the last 23 months gamers have been looking to Capcom for some sign of the blue bomber's stability after Inafune's departure, and Capcom's answer has been the cancellation of everything we looked forward to, plus BBAMM in a fighting game. Why is it surprising that such a situation upsets people? We all know what BBAMM was intended to be: a friendly jab at our fond memories. What he turned into was a mocking reminder of what was ripped away from us. The exact same action holds a vastly different meaning depending on the setup, and the one fully and solely responsible for that setup is Capcom. So why shouldn't the fans be upset with Capcom?
So, yes, the people who are pissed at BBAMM, *ARE* pissed mainly because of Legends 3. I just don't see anything wrong with that. If we had some other "proper" Mega Man game to at least attempt to take the focus off, then maybe things would be different. But if Mega Man lives in gaming ONLY as a joke, then that's a problem, and I can't blame any fan who is bothered by that.
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Parodies are only funny if they are not being passed as a replacement for the original work, otherwise they are seen as ridicule. And that's why many a gamer find BBAMM to be offensive: Because the "genuine" Mega Man has been MIA in video games for the last couple of years after numerous lost opportunities.
You'd have a point if it was a Mega Man game, but it isn't. It's a game that has nothing to do with Mega Man.
There's no reason for the original to be here at all, so there's nothing wrong with putting BAMM in the roster.
He is in no way replacing the original work.
And maybe you have a point with the Legends 3 thing, but it's been a year since then. If you're still using it as a reason to take offence to BAMM, well what can I say
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Mega Man has been a staple bonus or cameo character in MANY Capcom games. He's been in unrelated games before too. Canon Spike had good ol' Rock, and Onimusha Blade Warriors had Mega Man EXE and Zero Series Zero. I don't think it's too far out for Mega Man to make some kind of a appearance in a Street Fighter crossover. But if he did, I would have expected the actual character, not the tie in joke gone sour. ESPECIALLY after circumstances left the punchline without the actual joke.
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And maybe you have a point with the Legends 3 thing, but it's been a year since then.
We've waited 11 years in anticipation and hope. It was within our grasps, then ripped away and taunted at.
1 year doesn't even begin to smooth it over. Not by a long shot.
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Both Flame and Objection Man nailed their respective points.
You are correct, AA, in that a fighting game crossover is not a Mega Man game. But that would excuse his absence, not his mockery. There's a world of difference. I wasn't terribly concerned with, for example, the lack of any "true" blue bomber in UMvC3, for exactly that reason. However, Capcom CHOSE to include Mega Man in SFxT, and if they throw in a punchline with no joke, as Flame so aptly put it, then we have every right to criticize them for it. We have every right as fans to not be amused.
BBAMM's presence in SFxT is a direct reference to both Universe (what would have been BBAMM's first playable appearance) and Legends 3 (BBAMM's "digger" backstory in SFxT), set up with Inafune's permission prior to him leaving the company, when the games were still on track for release. The tie-in would have been for the good of all three. But letting that pass unmodified after what happened to both Mega Man titles is an act of gross negligence on Capcom's part.
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Just wanted to add to my previous post, on why its no surprise to expect Megaman in a Street fighter game.
Mega Man and SF have been pretty closely tied together since back in the day when they were both the powerhouse juggernauts that represented Capcon. Megaman refences and or cameos in SF, and the same thing for SF in Megaman.
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of.fen.sive adj
causing displeasure or resentment <offensive remarks>
Frankly, I find that comment offensive.
Put away the pitchfork for a moment. You're assuming that being "offended" specifically denotes an extreme and overzealous reaction, a violent retaliation and/or a desire to abolish, or at the very least, some accusation of malice by the offending party. None of that is by any means true.
Then why do I see the complete opposite in so many Mega Man fans today? They've given me sufficient context to define how they've been offended better than a dictionary can.
I may take offense to the fact that you are telling others how to feel
By the way, I think it's a little odd that you're telling me I'm the one with the pitchfork. That's the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it?
but that doesn't mean I'm going to join a bandwagon against you, ostracize you, otherwise be a dick to you, encourage my friends to boycott your business, or any other such nonsense. Holding intelligent and constructive conversations with you does not require that you personally approve of my feelings, and there's no reason for me to pretend that it does. Finding something offensive is a personal, subjective matter. To what extent that offense goes and what type of reaction it warrants, that too, is up to the individual.
The problem is that with this state of affairs between Capcom and Mega Man fans, it hasn't remained personal. It's become endemic and paraded around for the wrong reasons. I'm not liking what I'm seeing, and I wanted to call people out on that. I know what people are mad about, but as far as I can see it, something like BBAMM is just an available scapegoat.
Parodies are only funny if they are not being passed as a replacement for the original work, otherwise they are seen as ridicule.
What reason does anyone have to believe that a parody like BBAMM would replace Mega Man? Maybe for an incredibly short stint that some Mega Man fans won't live down, but so far a lot of people enjoyed what was pretty much a cameo throwback. And some of them are Mega Man fans who wanted Legends 3. To each his own, I guess, but I think a lot of Mega Man fans are overreacting.
And that's why many a gamer find BBAMM to be offensive: Because the "genuine" Mega Man has been MIA in video games for the last couple of years after numerous lost opportunities.
Which is a shame, but Mega Man is far from gone. He's shown up in NamcoXCapcom and TatsuVSCapcom and starred in Mega Man 9 & 10, and now ([tornado fang]ing finally) X is showing up in Project X Zone. I'm not saying people should be satisfied with all this, but suffice it to say that Mega Man is not MIA. Just on hiatus.
It should come as no surprise that context plays a huge part in what does and doesn't bother someone. For the last 23 months gamers have been looking to Capcom for some sign of the blue bomber's stability after Inafune's departure, and Capcom's answer has been the cancellation of everything we looked forward to, plus BBAMM in a fighting game. Why is it surprising that such a situation upsets people?
Honestly, it isn't surprising. It's just a bit disappointing. Why grump about it when you can try enjoying it instead? It is at least a Mega Man in a fighting game rather than no Mega Man. It's also the most appropriate Mega Man for that kind of game: a silly grabbag of characters in a wacky fighting game. BBAMM was just the best fit for SFxT, even if he doesn't perfectly appeal to our hero worship. If you would've rather have had no Mega Man there, that would not have made sense. Who else would they have gotten to counter Pac-Man's appearance in the game? Captain Commando? Then all 5 of the Commando fans would've been happy, but we'd still have a shitload of pissed of Mega Man fans who are (understandably) desperate for attention, but don't understand that Capcom doesn't revolve around Mega Man--especially not now. They don't have to like him, but they can at least acknowledge him as *a* Mega Man. Specifically a different Mega Man than has ever been in a fighting game before.
Speaking of which, just about every iteration of Mega Man has shown up in a fighting game already. The entire MvC series sans MvC3 has had at least two Mega Man characters if not three, and Mega Man also cameo'd as a fully playable character in Cannon Spike some time back. Then Mega Man EXE showed up in Onimusha Blade Warriors alongside Copy Zero, who also showed up in Capcom vs SNK: SVC Chaos (whereas X showed up in a chibi card battle VS game) Meanwhile, Zero's also showed up in Tatsu and MvC3, and most everyone considers him an honorary Mega Man character because he's jush sho cooool and got his own spinoff series.
I know this is where you're going to cite bad timing, and that's fine, but beyond reparations for the mishandling of Legends 3, I don't expect anything more from Capcom. At this point, I'd be happy if they did something cool or fun with the franchise, even if it means giving the washed up old cover art man some time in the sun. At least he'll give the franchise's heavy hitters some time to relax, but relaxing seems far beyond what a lot of Mega Man fans are content with. Like you said, that's a personal matter, but personally, I think they should calm down and refocus their anger.
We all know what BBAMM was intended to be: a friendly jab at our fond memories. What he turned into was a mocking reminder of what was ripped away from us. The exact same action holds a vastly different meaning depending on the setup, and the one fully and solely responsible for that setup is Capcom. So why shouldn't the fans be upset with Capcom?
See, but I never said people shouldn't be upset at Capcom. I'm just criticizing what the aim of that anger is. BBAMM isn't the target. It shouldn't even be in the peripheral vision. At this point, he's just a fun cameo that not everybody likes, which is fine. If he becomes more than that, though, I think it'd help if the fans had a bit of lucidity about their own history: every new series beyond either Classic or X was met with some level of extreme negativity or pessimism, and they were all usually around a time of uncertainty for the series. After Classic, people were tired of Mega Man and Capcom had to think of something new to do. After X was headed for the dirt and Pokemon was getting popular, Capcom decided to shift gears to Mega Man Zero and Battle Network, both of which are arguably the most popular Mega Man series to date. This was shortly after Legends came and went without a lot of fanfare. Then we get a slight resurgence of the X series followed by Star Force and ZX shortly afterwards, and after that very brief period of productivity, Capcom just was not seeing a lot of return on the series for their efforts, limp as they might have been. I don't doubt that Capcom painted themselves into a corner when they decided to bank on sequel after Mega Man sequel, but isn't it safe to say that they were responding to what we wanted as fans? Meaning that maybe we're just not as profitable or meriting as much attention as we'd like to think.
Yeah, this is all bad timing, but it also coincides with a resurgence of some other old Capcom franchises that people love: Resident Evil and Street Fighter. It makes sense that they'd be focusing more on where the money is, even if their decisions with how to handle these investments are so short-sighted and myopic that they seem to be sabotaging their own success--like they did with Mega Man. What makes us think in our wildest dreams that they'd treat Mega Man any better, or differently? Is it really reasonable for us to be jealous of either Resident Evil or Street Fighter, considering all the cock-ups and betrayals people keep harassing them about it for? Look at what they're doing with Mega Man on the iPhone. Neat [parasitic bomb], right? And if I'm perfectly honest, Rockman Online didn't look that great at all. It had some potential, but it needed a good bit of polishing up, and also it's a game more suited to the Korean MMO audience that it is to Western folk. The best looking things about Online were the animated trailers.
So, yes, the people who are pissed at BBAMM, *ARE* pissed mainly because of Legends 3. I just don't see anything wrong with that. If we had some other "proper" Mega Man game to at least attempt to take the focus off, then maybe things would be different. But if Mega Man lives in gaming ONLY as a joke, then that's a problem, and I can't blame any fan who is bothered by that.
That's where we disagree. I understand Mega Man fans are bothered by everything that's happening to the franchise, but sometimes taking it out on everything they see Capcom doing (or not doing) with the character is a waste of effort and makes people look foolish and petty. Capcom just isn't obligated to do anything more with the franchise than what they intend, and fans' only recourse is to show their demand and never let up. The problem is that for all the times fans seemed to have made their voices heard, they've done more fruitless whining and less actual buying than Capcom would've liked, so the big company translates that as "little demand" and starts rethinking what to do. Sometimes that isn't the fan's fault, like when Capcom just puts out worse products than the last ones, but other times the fans don't give decent games a chance (see Legends) or there aren't enough to show interest in the brand compared with fans of other brands. Considering that good Mega Man games tend to outweigh the bad ones, this is probably a prime indicator that the brand isn't that reliable. However, this is also because Capcom's actually pretty bad with talent turnover and franchise management, so that plays a role in how much demand their products generate--and they also don't give some games a chance.
Ultimately this is in Capcom's hands, but we're the ones that are telling them whether they're doing things right or wrong, and sometimes, we're just dead wrong about what we want. Multiply by 5 different subfranchises and you have a situation that is sufficiently [tornado fang]'d. The fanbase is just far too divided, and Capcom needs to work on uniting them. That means giving every subfranchise attention, which is like reviving five different game franchises to please five different fanbases. Pretty tall order, Nordberg! You could cite this as a good reason to refuse any new game starring BBAMM, which I'd agree with, except that BBAMM is a warm-up act at best. Not a heavy hitter.
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Then why do I see the complete opposite in so many Mega Man fans today? They've given me sufficient context to define how they've been offended better than a dictionary can.
As I said, it is up to the individual. But when you go drawing distinctions between being "peeved" and being "offended", you're merely passing your own view of semantics off as fact.
By the way, I think it's a little odd that you're telling me I'm the one with the pitchfork. That's the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it?
No need to get defensive. That was merely my way of asking you to hold back your initial reaction to my first line and hear me out.
The problem is that with this state of affairs between Capcom and Mega Man fans, it hasn't remained personal. It's become endemic and paraded around for the wrong reasons. I'm not liking what I'm seeing, and I wanted to call people out on that. I know what people are mad about, but as far as I can see it, something like BBAMM is just an available scapegoat.
UMvC3 was a scapegoat. BBAMM is just bad taste. As I've mentioned in my last post, there's a world of difference.
What reason does anyone have to believe that a parody like BBAMM would replace Mega Man?
He HAS, that's the point. That's not by any means to say that he always will; suggesting otherwise would be naive.
You may call it a short stint, but as Objection Man pointed out, it's a stint that was 11 years in the making. That's not something that's going to be brushed under the rug easily.
suffice it to say that Mega Man is not MIA. Just on hiatus.
Once again, you have an outstanding ability to split hairs among synonyms.
But I digress. None of your examples post-date the production of Universe other than Project X Zone, which as far as we can tell is likely remaining Japan-only (I hope I'm wrong), and it's developed by Bandai and Monolith, not by Capcom (which is their excuse for not giving a damn if the game is localized or not).
BBAMM was just the best fit for SFxT
That's a debatable opinion if I ever saw one. Anyone with a brain stem knows that the Mega Man franchise comes with a huge variety of options even if you're only willing to consider the series lead characters. There are seven of them, after all.
What's more, there are more "Bad Box Art" designs than just MM1/Universe on which SFxT's is clearly based. Their entire joke approach could have been very easily preserved with far more dignity and grace by simply reskinning it into the MM9 or MM10 promotional designs.
Is it really reasonable for us to be jealous of either Resident Evil or Street Fighter
Not in the least.
I mean, some passive, instinctive resentment, maybe. But by any level of reasonable, conscious thought, attacking one franchise for the sake of another makes no sense to me.
And if I'm perfectly honest, Rockman Online didn't look that great at all. It had some potential, but it needed a good bit of polishing up, and also it's a game more suited to the Korean MMO audience that it is to Western folk. The best looking things about Online were the animated trailers.
In terms of it's platform, you probably have a good point.
But there's more to it than that. I know I wasn't the only one who, back before Legends 3 was announced, was more excited about RMO than about Universe. For all the "enlightened" gamers who claim that narrative and gameplay are the be-all end-all of gaming's appeal, there is a HIGH level of character-based appeal to the medium. Why else do you think that Mario's face is plastered on every sport known to man? A familiar face opens the fan up to new experiences. When they first stepped into the DS generation, though, Capcom took the complete opposite approach: Recast the franchise, uproot the aesthetic, and attach it all to the same old gameplay with minimal tweaks. It was exactly what they shouldn't have done, as it alienates the existing fans without attracting new ones. That's why Capcom is pulling a complete about-face with Ace Attorney, and why they tried and failed to do the same with Operate Shooting Star, and to a lesser extent Zero Collection/Mythos. It's also why XOver's artwork is seen as a complete contradiction in target audience to the nature of its "casual" platform. And it's why (along with the whole co-op gameplay thing) Rockman Online was a hot topic despite the english-speaking world knowing damn well they would never play it.
Rockman Online would probably never have been popular simply because PC MMOs are a dead genre outside of a few key franchises. But there are some awesome concepts in there, and Capcom could honestly learn a thing or two from it.
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He HAS, that's the point. That's not by any means to say that he always will; suggesting otherwise would be naive.
As I've stated before, SFxT is a completely unrelated game - there's no reason for the orignal Megaman to appear so replacing involved. Maybe if they cancelled Legends 3 to make BAMM the game you'd have a point, but they didn't.
BAMM was something that was decided to be done alongside MMO and L3. Considering those two got cancelled, shouldn't you be happy they didn't take him out as well? Your logic of "no Megaman at all" makes no sense to me.
Let's be honest, if it was leaked that BAMM had been taken out of SFxT because of those two games being cancelled, the fanbase would have been even angrier than they are now.
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Both Flame and myself have already answered that.
And no, I don't think the reaction to BBAMM being removed would have been terribly severe. Why? Because to this day, nobody gives a damn about Mega Man Universe (http://www.facebook.com/pages/100000-Strong-for-Bringing-Back-Mega-Man-Universe/212341525502946?ref=ts), which was essentially BBAMM's flagship game. The fanbase brings that one up only for the sake of describing the state of the Mega Man franchise as a whole. Exceedingly few actually mourn it.
But, as I said last post, there was no reason he needed to be outright removed. There were other ways they could have handled it.
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Had BBAMM been removed from SFxT, I would have commended Capcom's smarts in removing a character which would have caused controversy and upset.
For a franchise game, a joke like that is fine. For a cameo in an unrelated game, I would expect the actual character. Again- especially after the joke was left half baked with the cancellation of the two games that were part of it.
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Had BBAMM been removed from SFxT, I would have commended Capcom's smarts in removing a character which would have caused controversy and upset.
I find that very hard to believe.
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In this particular case? yeah. I would.
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Though I'm not furious about BBAMM (in fact, I don't really care), it's basically like this.
Imagine a tripod, with the humorous intentions BBAMM in SFxT on top of it. The three legs are the fanbase, L3, and Universe. In order for BBAMM to succeed, he needs all those supports. Then two of those legs are taken away, being the games. The "joke" that is the character no longer has the supports for it to go off aside from the fanbase, which is effectively removed from the equation by the other two supports' removal. And, naturally, what happens is the humor quite literally falls flat. Nothing substantial is left to keep the intentions afloat, and it fails.
The intentions were good from the start, but it broke down completely along the way from initial planning to release. That's it. Whether or not it's an considered unrelated game is irrelevant. As has been said before, Mega Man has cameo'd in many other game that would qualify as irrelevant in the same way; there was a time when ol' Mega was basically Capcom's mascot, so it was natural for him to randomly pop up in Capcom games. That in itself makes them relevant for the Blue Bomber; history has proven that much, at the very least.
Correct me if I'm misstating this.
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Why? Because to this day, nobody gives a damn about Mega Man Universe (http://www.facebook.com/pages/100000-Strong-for-Bringing-Back-Mega-Man-Universe/212341525502946?ref=ts),
Only 130 likes?? Hahaha! That's way worse than I would have ever imagined! That is just down right pitiful. Now that's what I expect out of something like Xover.
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Only 130 likes?? Hahaha! That's way worse than I would have ever imagined! That is just down right pitiful. Now that's what I expect out of something like Xover.
Xover's cancellation would bring a group that would peak at 12 likes or so. :P
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It's a pity that all these new 100k pages are only mooching off of the only 'successful' (*wink wink, nudge nudge*) 100k page.
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I find that very hard to believe.
"Hey, Capcom was going to include a sorta-living reference to MML3 and MMU and make him an out-of-shape schlub of dubious likability, but after those two games bit the dust, they went back, picked a different design, removed the references, and revised his character to not be so dubious. Maybe Capcom isn't as thoughtless as we figured?"
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The character himself is a washed up nobody with a big heart and big dreams. He also does whatever Roll tells him to do, like climb mountains or something looking (digging) for treasure.
This also reminds me more of the plot to the DuckTales NES games than Trigger, as Scrooge always has something in the back of his head to go and get something himself, not hire someone else to do it. Mega Man is a similar situation, only with a more physical entity giving him those orders.
I also liked Over-1's design.. He just had bad timing, along with MEGA MAN SCROOGE.. and had the unfortunate deal of being a mary sue, mass produced model and everything. Huh, reminds me A LOT of Silver the Hedgehog. He was hated by the fact that he's another of sonic's games, and came in a bad game. It took awhile to get to know him better, though.
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As I said, it is up to the individual. But when you go drawing distinctions between being "peeved" and being "offended", you're merely passing your own view of semantics off as fact.
I think it's an important distinction to make. Being peeved carries much less strong connotations than being offended.
No need to get defensive. That was merely my way of asking you to hold back your initial reaction to my first line and hear me out.
All of that could've been avoided had you been more considerate.
See what I just did there?
UMvC3 was a scapegoat. BBAMM is just bad taste. As I've mentioned in my last post, there's a world of difference.
I think you're splitting hairs here.
He HAS, that's the point. That's not by any means to say that he always will; suggesting otherwise would be naive.
I think this is an overreaction.
You may call it a short stint, but as Objection Man pointed out, it's a stint that was 11 years in the making. That's not something that's going to be brushed under the rug easily.
Legends 3 won't be brushed under the rug easily. The only reason BBAMM is even being singled out is because of that. By itself, even with its tenuous relations to Universe and L3, it still amounts to little more than a cameo. People who haven't bothered playing SFxT will only remember it because of its timing.
Once again, you have an outstanding ability to split hairs among synonyms.
Wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_in_action)
Missing in action (MIA) is a casualty Category assigned under the Status of Missing to armed services personnel who are reported missing during active service. They may have been killed, wounded, become a prisoner of war, or deserted. If deceased, neither their remains nor grave can be positively identified. Becoming MIA has been an occupational risk for service personnel for as long as there has been warfare.
hi·a·tus
Noun:
A pause or gap in a sequence, series, or process.
Synonyms:
gap - lacuna - blank - chasm
That's a debatable opinion if I ever saw one. Anyone with a brain stem knows that the Mega Man franchise comes with a huge variety of options even if you're only willing to consider the series lead characters. There are seven of them, after all.
And they're all pretty much the same: a revered hero roughly between the ages of 10-18. We're well past outrage now and are just talking mere preference.
What's more, there are more "Bad Box Art" designs than just MM1/Universe on which SFxT's is clearly based. Their entire joke approach could have been very easily preserved with far more dignity and grace by simply reskinning it into the MM9 or MM10 promotional designs.
But it wouldn't have carried the hilarious legacy of the original box-art, upon which those new reskins were based. And if they were made fat or silly, I don't think people would've liked them anymore than the original.
Not in the least.
I mean, some passive, instinctive resentment, maybe. But by any level of reasonable, conscious thought, attacking one franchise for the sake of another makes no sense to me.
We agree on that. I just thought I'd throw this into the quote pyramid to make it seem a little less like a snarky pick-apart attack.
I think this whole BBAMM thing is kinda playing into that "attacking other franchises" thing when it comes to Street Fighter, since even though SFxT is clearly not made for us, we're being super picky about it anyways. Even without it, a lot of Mega Man fans are extremely jealous and vile towards the success of SF and RE, although that probably has more to do with how Capcom is shamelessly milking them.
In terms of it's platform, you probably have a good point.
But there's more to it than that. I know I wasn't the only one who, back before Legends 3 was announced, was more excited about RMO than about Universe. For all the "enlightened" gamers who claim that narrative and gameplay are the be-all end-all of gaming's appeal, there is a HIGH level of character-based appeal to the medium. Why else do you think that Mario's face is plastered on every sport known to man? A familiar face opens the fan up to new experiences. When they first stepped into the DS generation, though, Capcom took the complete opposite approach: Recast the franchise, uproot the aesthetic, and attach it all to the same old gameplay with minimal tweaks. It was exactly what they shouldn't have done, as it alienates the existing fans without attracting new ones. That's why Capcom is pulling a complete about-face with Ace Attorney, and why they tried and failed to do the same with Operate Shooting Star, and to a lesser extent Zero Collection/Mythos. It's also why XOver's artwork is seen as a complete contradiction in target audience to the nature of its "casual" platform. And it's why (along with the whole co-op gameplay thing) Rockman Online was a hot topic despite the english-speaking world knowing damn well they would never play it.
Rockman Online would probably never have been popular simply because PC MMOs are a dead genre outside of a few key franchises. But there are some awesome concepts in there, and Capcom could honestly learn a thing or two from it.
I'd like to hear more about this. This deserves it's own thread.
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I also liked Over-1's design..
So do I, actually. I mean, he's not the greatest, but he's solid. Most who take the time to think about XOver realize that the most disturbing points to it are technical, not conceptual. That being, it's reusing a game engine that was already established to be a complete POS.
Being peeved carries much less strong connotations than being offended.
To you, maybe. Not everyone lives by that assumption.
I, for instance, ignore an awful lot of what I find offensive, because I respect the fact that what bothers me doesn't necessarily bother the rest of the world. On the other hand, I would only describe myself as "peeved" when I am upset with something to the point of disrupting my usual state of mind, thus I require some manner of resolution before moving on.
All of that could've been avoided had you been more considerate.
See what I just did there?
I think you're splitting hairs here.
I think this is an overreaction.
(http://home.comcast.net/~Anguirus/lolz/thisisntfun.png)
Wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_in_action)
Missing in action (MIA) is a casualty Category assigned under the Status of Missing to armed services personnel who are reported missing during active service. They may have been killed, wounded, become a prisoner of war, or deserted. If deceased, neither their remains nor grave can be positively identified. Becoming MIA has been an occupational risk for service personnel for as long as there has been warfare.
hi·a·tus
Noun:
A pause or gap in a sequence, series, or process.
Synonyms:
gap - lacuna - blank - chasm
Being MIA is being on hiatus, though being on hiatus isn't necessarily being MIA.
I don't see how MIA is inappropriate other than the fact that Mega Man isn't in the armed services, but I don't think I need to be telling you that the term in this case is being used metaphorically.
So, yeah, gonna need some more clarification on that one.
I think this whole BBAMM thing is kinda playing into that "attacking other franchises" thing when it comes to Street Fighter, since even though SFxT is clearly not made for us, we're being super picky about it anyways.
I'm sure those who attack Street Fighter out of jealousy (and I know they're out there) are more than willing to add BBAMM to their ammunition. But as for me, whether it's a "Mega Man game" or not, it is still Mega Man playable in a video game with Capcom's approval. Being a guest character does not grant him a free pass.
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"Hey, Capcom was going to include a sorta-living reference to MML3 and MMU and make him an out-of-shape schlub of dubious likability, but after those two games bit the dust, they went back, picked a different design, removed the references, and revised his character to not be so dubious. Maybe Capcom isn't as thoughtless as we figured?"
If you actually read the posts, we were referring to him being removed all together.
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If you actually read the posts, we were referring to him being removed all together.
...*thunk*
Sometimes I wonder why I haven't been legally declared incompetent.
BBAMM would still be technically completely-removed, though, if they picked a design that was just "Box Art Megaman".
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Thats what i was saying. I would have commended Capcom if they had removed him altogether after L3 and Universe got canned. Remodelling him would have been totally Ok with me, but this is Capcom, so the best i could have hoped for was a complete removal.
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To you, maybe. Not everyone lives by that assumption.
I, for instance, ignore an awful lot of what I find offensive, because I respect the fact that what bothers me doesn't necessarily bother the rest of the world. On the other hand, I would only describe myself as "peeved" when I am upset with something to the point of disrupting my usual state of mind, thus I require some manner of resolution before moving on.
Well, there's a reason why there's such a thing as a "pet peeve" but not a "pet offense". One's being annoyed by something, and another is being gravely upset by something, like if I called you a name or insulted your family. The former tends to be indirect whereas the latter tends to be very direct.
Being MIA is being on hiatus, though being on hiatus isn't necessarily being MIA.
I don't see how MIA is inappropriate other than the fact that Mega Man isn't in the armed services, but I don't think I need to be telling you that the term in this case is being used metaphorically.
So, yeah, gonna need some more clarification on that one.
MIA means you're dead or lost. Being on hiatus is more like you're on vacation.
I'm sure those who attack Street Fighter out of jealousy (and I know they're out there) are more than willing to add BBAMM to their ammunition. But as for me, whether it's a "Mega Man game" or not, it is still Mega Man playable in a video game with Capcom's approval. Being a guest character does not grant him a free pass.
I don't think its anywhere remotely up to Mega Man fans to let a cameo or a joke pass. Developers need to have some fun too. But then it's not my place to tell you how to feel, so consider it a suggestion.
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Are you two seriously arguing about the definitions of words? Really?
I mean, just asking.
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Well, the topic is kind of petering out, see, and...
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Are you two seriously arguing about the definitions of words? Really?
I mean, just asking.
We are -AC.
(http://home.comcast.net/~Anguirus/lolz/thisisntfun.png)
Anyways, yeah, I think this thread has run past its course. I admit that BBAMM was plagued by unfortunate bad timing, and that I shouldn't be telling people how they should feel about stuff, but at the very least, I did what I wanted by giving my two cents and suggesting that maybe people shouldn't feel that offended or upset with BBAMM. Reasons for that being that BBAMM's not really hard to enjoy by himself independent from his association with two cancelled Mega Man games, only one of which fans (rightfully) pitched a fit about. So from there I just extrapolated on the hate for the character and identified that it had little to do with him and more to do with what he's associated with, which is almost like hating X for (not really) starring in X7.
Considering this whole conversation was based on the slimmest, unconfirmed (or arguably deconfirmed) notion that BBAMM might get his own game, this was probably a big waste of time and effort, but I at least wanted to communicate that a game starring BBAMM might not be terrible if people took him for what he is and not what he's associated with. He's a joke. He happened to be an awfully ill-timed one, but nevertheless an indirectly ill-timed joke as opposed to a directly intentioned joke. Personally, it's not something I'd hate Capcom for if they decided to bank on him for a little bit. Heck, I'd more likely root for them as long as the hypothetical game doesn't look terrible or is clearly in poor taste. At this time, though, it kinda would be in poor taste. I'd much rather Capcom make good with us for Legends 3 before they start joking around pretending everything's A-OK with the fans.
It's really, really [tornado fang]ing not. But hey, if they can give me a chuckle with BBAMM yet, I welcome them to try.
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Bad Box Art Mega Man should be in a 3rd person adventure featuring Ladd Spencer in a comical spy detective stealth action-adventure. Lots of cliffs and Ladd can grab Yellow Man by the waist like Batman to get places. 90 hours of cutscenes in a deep plot involving romance and explosions.
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They should give the project to Team Ninja. They know their way around curves, acrobatics, and jiggle physics. I want to see BBAMM's body jiggle all about as he jumps and shoots.
Or they could give him to Telltale and they'll make him into a central character in a new Sam & Max game. And then I'll cry tears of manly joy.
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Capcom should pick a series everyone wants to see resurrected, and make a buddy cop thing with whoever and Yellow Man.
Or Capcom should make a party or Smash Bros. game with ALL their box art representations. I wanna see Trojan in this, and Ladd and Strider as featured on US box art. Every single first game in a series for NES. Let's all brainstorm great members of this roster.
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Are you two seriously arguing about the definitions of words? Really?
I mean, just asking.
Apparently, but I get bored after the first round.
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What words?
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I can't believe that I didn't post in this thread yet. That being said, I liked Bad Box Art Mega Man, including the one featuring in Street Fighter X Tekken.
If I were to choose my favorite versions of Bad Box Art Mega Man, Mega Man 2 and Mega Man 10 versions are my favorites.
The Mega Man 2 box art portrays Mega Man as a real man without the strange vibe I see and receive from the Mega Man 1 and Mega Man 9 box arts.
The Mega Man 10 box art shows Mega Man as a man who can also look good in X's regular armor.
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Why is Dr. Light hiding behind Crash Man? Or is that supposed to be Wily? I could never figure that out.
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It's Dr. Wily looking like Dr. Light. I suppose having a large bearded scientist with glasses seemed like a good idea for a bad guy.