Rockman Perfect Memories

Rockman & Community => Rockman Series => X => Topic started by: Zan on April 16, 2010, 05:13:58 PM

Title: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Zan on April 16, 2010, 05:13:58 PM
As we all know, the story summary on the ZERO collection site has given us some brand new info covering three series.

http://www.themmnetwork.com/2010/04/09/does-the-rockman-zero-collection-storyline-explain-everything/

Said info having put the status of X7, 8 and CM into question. But let's ignore that here and focus on one particularly controversial statement in the summary; the details behind Zero's change of allegiance and the origins of Sigma Virus in relation to that.

Relevant quotes on this subject are:

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Sigma Virus
Zero was the first repliroid to be infected with the Sigma Virus but
Zero which was developed by Wily to be a completely evil repliroid,
despite being infected by Sigma Virus isn't transformed into an irregular, [instead]
was reborn as a good repliroid.

1XX years ago
The birth of Zero

Zero was produced by Dr. Wily, who schemed at taking over the world. But he contained a flaw in his cognitive program that made him violent and unwilling to obey instructions, so Dr. Wily himself sealed Zero in a capsule.

1XX years ago
The Sigma Virus outbreak

A subspecies of the terrible computer virus from long ago is generated, and begins driving robots mad locally. The human leadership acknowledges these infected robots as Mavericks, and orders them to be disposed of. The source was found to be an unknown computer virus that had prevailed over 100 years ago emerging from the capsule Zero slumbered in. Later, this virus was named the Sigma Virus, after the Reploid “Sigma” who led a revolt against the human leadership.

1XX years ago
Zero awakens

Receiving information of Zero awakening from his capsule and causing violence, the Maverick Hunter Sigma finds and intercepts him. during this incident, Sigma is infected by the unknown computer virus leaking out from Zero’s capsule, but at the same time Zero, having his armor damaged in the battle with Sigma, also becomes infected with the virus. Due to this, Zero’s personality completely changed, and he would turn to working as a Maverick Hunter.

There are quite a couple of paradoxical implications in the aforementioned info. Most of all being how the virus would affect Zero to become good, even though X2 and X5 use the same virus in a completely different manner.

Given the paragraph on Zero's creation, it seems the immediate implication here is that Zero was intended to have Sigma Virus used on him to counter the flaw in his cognitive program, which seemingly worked, but not completely in the manner Wily wanted it. However that only opens a whole slew of other matters to address.

Why is Zero not infected until after Sigma damages him, even though the virus originates from his capsule? How is Zero the first infected when the virus was already infecting Repliroids prior to his awakening and turning them into the first irregulars? Not to mention the extremely close time proximity in which Sigma himself got awakened.

Not only that, but why is the capsule implicated as the origin of the virus here? This appears to contradict quite a lot of what we know. Sigma's statement to Zero in X8 comes immediately to mind but also:

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Rockman X4 Himitsu Daizukan
ゼロのイレギュラーのウイルスにおかされて、シグマは、じゃあくになってしまう。
Invaded by Zero's irregular virus, Sigma became evil.

Rockman Perfect Memories:
Exactly what kinds of secrets are sleeping in Zero's past?
Zero has almost no memory of the past.  However, sometimes he seems to see a person resembling Dr. Wily in his dreams.  And it's also said that Zero was born with the Sigma Virus already inside of him. His creation is it actually to battle with whom?  One would never think it was for justice, however...
X: He was made by Dr. Right.  Will the time for his fated battle with Zero come?
Dr. Wily: The one who put the Sigma Virus in Zero is, perhaps him......

Interview with Inafune:
Sigma and Zero basically represent the idea that nothing is absolute. Sigma was a powerful leader of the Maverick Hunters but after Zero passed the virus to him, his allegiance changed.  Circumstances can change anything, and nothing is absolute.

So all in all, there's a lot we have to reconcile here. I'm personally thinking Zero's natural virus immunity lies at the root of all this, but I'd like to hear other people's thoughts about this subject.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Jetfire on April 16, 2010, 07:56:43 PM
Personally I think this newly released summary is similar to the "three keys" section of MMZOCW: storyline material that was in the early stages of the series but ultimately abandoned.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Mirby on April 16, 2010, 09:44:35 PM
I think the immunity route is the best possible explanation that stays within canon...
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Zan on April 16, 2010, 09:55:20 PM
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Personally I think this newly released summary is similar to the "three keys" section of MMZOCW: storyline material that was in the early stages of the series but ultimately abandoned.

I don't think taking the summary in such a way fits with the way they referenced Rockman10. There's no way they could have taken into account a virus from space during the early stages of the ZERO-series' development.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Hypershell on April 16, 2010, 10:25:03 PM
I suppose, for the purpose of the earlier books "Zero's capsule" could be considered an extension of "Zero" in the same manner that pre-Sigma strains of the Maverick virus are still referred to as "Sigma Virus".  The terminology being as loose as it is already, it really is something we should consider, particularly with regards to the source of Sigma's infection.  Never previously was there a reason to draw a distinction between Zero's capsule and Zero himself, in terms of where the virus was brewing.

As for the status of Zero's own infection, the RPM book seems to be speaking in "maybes", so they can be dismissed as implications rather than facts.  On the surface, this does seem to show that Zero's origins have been changed.

But that's not to say we need to discard all that the book has told us; there are ways of re-interpreting it rather than discarding it.  In light of Inti's timeline, the train of thought I'm usually seeing is that the virus exposure is what caused Zero's headache, and some scratch from earlier allowed the viral infection.  But we don't know that to be the case.  It seems senseless, if Wily deems it necessary to guard Zero against the virus for the time being, for such trivial scratches (no visible harm came to Zero, so any damage prior to the head-punch was exceedingly minor) to wreck his immunity.  For that matter, should physical armor be all that important in preventing computer virus infiltration in the first place, or as with X, should we instead be looking at mental states?

Moving Zero's birth to 1XX years ago mandates that Wily was alive (read: already cheating death) and completed Zero relatively close to X-series timeframe, so it confirms Wily as a possible background character during all X-series events.  Suppose the W-headache is not a viral reaction, but a control measure akin to X6's force field.  Wily could be stopping Zero in mid-battle, making the call that he is now ready for viral infusion, and Zero would have been KOed, and infected while he was down.  Both sources would remain true as to who, Sigma or Wily, is responsible for Zero's initial infection, by having both play a part in it.

As for Zero being "born with" the virus, that could simply be read to refer to the "Hunter" Zero.

For the effects of the virus in later games, most notably X5, there are several things to consider.  One, we're dealing with new viral strains, which could be tailored to have different effects.  Two, we're dealing with a different Zero body; the X1 body may have never been intended to awaken but could instead be a safeguard to perfect Zero's consciousness without unleashing his full power too soon.  Three, for all his power and seeming evilness, Awakened Zero is not in the least aggressive, challenging X openly, waiting for him, and caring nothing for the other conflicts of the world.  If the virus's effect is read not as allegiance, but as curbing Zero's emotions, then the effect remains constant: Zero's emotions growing progressively less severe from flashback, to Hunter, to Awakened.  From raging out of control, to balanced, to indifferent.

Overall, while the timeline provides a lot of new head-scratching details, there's still plenty of ambiguity to work with.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Zan on April 16, 2010, 11:15:26 PM
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I suppose, for the purpose of the earlier books "Zero's capsule" could be considered an extension of "Zero" in the same manner that pre-Sigma strains of the Maverick virus are still referred to as "Sigma Virus".

I can see that working with the Himitsu Daizukan's statement, even if it came from the capsule, it is still Zero's virus. But Inafune's words provide a problem in that it "passed from Zero to Sigma." Which only works if the way is not Capsule->Zero followed by Capsule->Sigma, but rather Capsule->Zero->Sigma. And if that is what happened, it very much implicates the procedure of Zero's allegiance change could be interrupted by it passing to Sigma.

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Never previously was there a reason to draw a distinction between Zero's capsule and Zero himself, in terms of where the virus was brewing.

I'm mostly concerned with the X8 statement. It says "your virus" in MMX8. But in RX8 Sigma explicitly says something like "from that DNA". Maybe Sigma was instead referring to the creation of the Zero Virus, which was such a huge point in X8? If in reference to the original infection, it only works with the Capsule->Zero->Sigma approach. All in all, I'd like to see a retranslation of that line.

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As for the status of Zero's own infection, the RPM book seems to be speaking in "maybes", so they can be dismissed as implications rather than facts.  On the surface, this does seem to show that Zero's origins have been changed.

Yeah, the RPM quote is very easy to write off as just in-universe hearsay about Zero. But, its statements to coincide with what RZOCW told us: Zero is the first infected with Sigma Virus, he is the source. Which doesn't fly with the capsule and the timing of the Sigma battle in relation to the first irregulars. At face value this means he was infected long before the Zero vs Sigma battle; being infected once again during the battle to cause the allegiance change.

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wreck his immunity.

On that matter, why is Zero even immune to the virus? He was sleeping in the very same capsule that contained the virus. Perhaps Wily is building up Zero's immunity by constant exposure? Or is Wily running something similar to X's 30 years of ethical testing?

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For that matter, should physical armor be all that important in preventing computer virus infiltration in the first place, or as with X, should we instead be looking at mental states?

I think with Zero, it is quite relevant. Remember that his body physically reacts to the virus. If this is compromised by battle damage, the virus is allowed to reach his brain.

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Wily could be stopping Zero in mid-battle, making the call that he is now ready for viral infusion, and Zero would have been KOed, and infected while he was down.  Both sources would remain true as to who, Sigma or Wily, is responsible for Zero's initial infection, by having both play a part in it.

In that scenario, Wily's timing is absolute crap, though. However, the part of "circumstance", is not to be forgotten...

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For the effects of the virus in later games, most notably X5, there are several things to consider.  One, we're dealing with new viral strains, which could be tailored to have different effects.  Two, we're dealing with a different Zero body; the X1 body may have never been intended to awaken but could instead be a safeguard to perfect Zero's consciousness without unleashing his full power too soon.  Three, for all his power and seeming evilness, Awakened Zero is not in the least aggressive, challenging X openly, waiting for him, and caring nothing for the other conflicts of the world.  If the virus's effect is read not as allegiance, but as curbing Zero's emotions, then the effect remains constant: Zero's emotions growing progressively less severe from flashback, to Hunter, to Awakened.  From raging out of control, to balanced, to indifferent.

That's certainly all true. But even with different viruses in play, and the change to Zero's body. There's another question brought up; why is the reaction toward normal Repliroids and Mechaniroids always the same? Perhaps it's time to reevaluate the reason for Three Keys to bring up X's suffering circuit in a predominantly Zero orientated explanation?
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Hypershell on April 16, 2010, 11:52:41 PM
I guess I'm just not holding to Zero being infected before the Sigma battle.  It's still "Zero's" virus in that it shares its origins with him.  It came from the same place Zero came from.  It infected Sigma when he fought Zero.  It clearly maintains a link with Zero over the course of the series.  Irregardless of the time of Zero's infection, why shouldn't the virus be associated with Zero?

Whether it's Capsule -> Sigma or Capsule -> Zero -> Sigma is not something that we can expect older sources to accommodate when they predate the notion of drawing lines between Zero and his capsule in the first place.  When before Inti's Zero Collection timeline was Zero's capsule EVER part of the viral equation?  Again, Inafune's words may consider Zero's capsule as an extension of Zero in light of this.  If it's from Zero's capsule, from investigating and battling Zero, then it's still from Zero.

We should also consider that, Zero and Sigma being infected as a result of the same battle, that Zero's infection may have taken hold sooner than Sigma's.  Wasn't there some sourcebook quotes about evil brewing in Sigma gradually, or something to that effect?

In that scenario, Wily's timing is absolute crap, though. However, the part of "circumstance", is not to be forgotten...
I was actually suggesting that, in connection with my earlier line about mental states, that Zero's consciousness needed to be shut down for a bit in order for the virus to do its work in modifying it.  Kinda like how PC updates do not apply until rebooted.  In this case, that reboot was a punch in the head.

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But, its statements to coincide with what RZOCW told us: Zero is the first infected with Sigma Virus, he is the source.
Besides what I already stated above on battle timing, we should also consider that it was the Three Keys that told us that, thus we must take it with the accompanying disclaimer.  Although I'd much sooner accept Sigma's slow descent into evil than Inafune and Inticreates retconning Zero's origins as they were during Z3's concept.

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On that matter, why is Zero even immune to the virus? He was sleeping in the very same capsule that contained the virus. Perhaps Wily is building up Zero's immunity by constant exposure? Or is Wily running something similar to X's 30 years of ethical testing?
That's the big question, isn't it?  Perhaps the single biggest piece of information we are still missing is why Wily kept Zero and the virus separated within the capsule in the first place.  We can only guess.

But on viral immunity, I would suppose that even though Wily has a specific plan for Zero and the virus, he also must see to it that the virus doesn't present a means for others to manipulate him, as it does for other Reploids.  Zero is a real "rule-breaker" in the virus book in that despite his immunity, he is not indifferent to it.  It affects him, but not in the way it affects others.  How/if the capsule separation ties into that is something I think we'd all like to know.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Zan on April 17, 2010, 12:26:11 AM
For completion's sake, I'm just going to leave these here. Quotes related to Sigma's infection, courtesy of Marshmallow Man:

Rockman X4 X to Z Kouryaku File
かつてはイレギュラーハンター第17部隊の隊長であったシグマ。その圧倒的な戦闘能力は史上最強といわれ、特A級ハンターとして仲間に尊敬され、信頼されていたレプリロイドである。だが、ある日、正体不明の赤いイレギュラー(ゼロ)との戦いにおいて敗北を喫し、最強と自負するプライドがズタズタにされた。このときにゼロからイレギュラー化を促進するウイルスに感染し、邪悪な心が芽生えてしまう。数ヶ月後、完全に邪悪なウイルスの虜となったシグマは、その圧倒的な力と天才的な頭脳で大勢のレプリロイドを従え、人間に対して反乱を起こしたのであった。

Sigma was at one time the Commander of the Irregular Hunter 17th Unit. A Special A Class Hunter, he was called the strongest in history due to his overpowering combat abilities, and gained the confidence and respect of his fellow repliroids. However, on a certain day, he suffered a defeat in battle by an unidentified unknown red irregular (Zero) that tore at his proud ego. At that time he was infected by some manner of virus that facilitates irregularity, germinating wickedness in his heart. Several month later, Sigma was completely enslaved by the evil virus, and used his overwhelming strength and genius intellect to subdue many repliroids into joining him in a revolt against humanity.

Rockman X4 Koushiki Irregular Hunters Manual
しかし、ある日ゼロに敗北し、イレギュラー化するウイルスをうつされてしまった。邪悪な心に支配されたシグマは、人類の敵としてエックスたちの前に何度も現われることになる。

But, one day, [Sigma] suffered a defeat by Zero, and was inflicted with an irregular converting virus. Under  the control of an evil heart, Sigma made enemies of humanity and popped up to cause trouble for X and his companions many times over.

Rockman X4 Saikyou Daizukan
そんな彼が、なぜイレギュラーと化してしまったのだろう?あくまで推測ではあるが、イレギュラーだったZEROと戦ったとき、イレギュラー化を促進するウイルスのようなものを浴びてしまったのが原因ではないだろうか。

Just why did he become irregular? There has been much conjecture, but the actual cause could well be from when was showered in some kind of  irregular-facilitating virus during his fight with the irregularly behaved Zero.

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Besides what I already stated above on battle timing, we should also consider that it was the Three Keys that told us that, thus we must take it with the accompanying disclaimer. 

I don't think it's to be discarded that easily, the Idiom dictionary also makes mention of similar things.

Sigma Virus
ZERO1
A terrifying Virus that makes Reploids go Maverick. Initially, Zero was the only one infected with the Virus, but as he traveled the world to battle Mavericks, he unwittingly spread the Virus.

Underground Laboratory (Forgotten Laboratory)
ZERO 1
The facility built to house Zero, who was discovered to be the source of the Sigma Virus outbreak.

Which is all fine and dandy with Sigma's infection, but it doesn't go with the irregulars being virus infected before Zero even awakens.

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Whether it's Capsule -> Sigma or Capsule -> Zero -> Sigma is not something that we can expect older sources to accommodate when they predate the notion of drawing lines between Zero and his capsule in the first place.

Then, what of Sigma? With Sigma saying "from that DNA", you can't quite relate its origins to a capsule...

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Perhaps the single biggest piece of information we are still missing is why Wily kept Zero and the virus separated within the capsule in the first place. 

Was it separated from Zero to begin with? The virus is spreading all over the place while he still sleeping in it, it must have reached Zero before that, with strange virus induced physical purification effects included. With the way X and Zero mirror each other, I get the feeling something like the ethical testing routine was also performed by Zero's capsule, which required the Sigma Virus.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Align on April 17, 2010, 01:41:47 AM
Maybe the capsule emanates the virus, affecting anything OUTSIDE it, while remaining safely sealed itself?
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Hypershell on April 17, 2010, 03:57:03 AM
Which is all fine and dandy with Sigma's infection, but it doesn't go with the irregulars being virus infected before Zero even awakens.
That's more a matter of probability than possibility.  Non-viral Mavericks are a reality, so the question is, would so many have risen to justify the formation of the Hunters?  Who knows, maybe in the early batch program errors and the like were more common.  The virus wasn't known to the Hunters until X3, so Zero Collection's timeline is clearly jumping around in that regard.

Looking at the other side, though, if Zero was already infected during stasis, then why is his fight with Sigma relevant at all?  What is the logic in battle damage allowing re-infection of something Zero was already sleeping in to begin with?

It's not an easy statement to reconcile.

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Then, what of Sigma? With Sigma saying "from that DNA", you can't quite relate its origins to a capsule...
Zero shouldn't even have the same DNA data in X8 as in X1, given that the Control Chip is the only part to survive that timeframe.  But Zero and the virus (or the strain he was sealed with, anyway) have the same creator, and were developed towards a common goal.  That they should share a similarity, regardless of Zero's time of infection, is only natural.  That Sigma should associate it with Zero is only natural.

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I get the feeling something like the ethical testing routine was also performed by Zero's capsule, which required the Sigma Virus.
An excellent thought which may well be key to solving the above dilemma.  I suppose that if the capsule was testing viral reactions, and the virus was meant to rid Zero of his uncontrollable violence, it is possible that unlike X, Zero was woken prematurely.  Who knows, that may be the entire reason Capcom/Inti decided to push Zero's creation so much later than X's.

In this case, one could figure that being woken prematurely interrupted Zero's "final" infection to correct his violent nature, thus the effect would not yet apply, and Sigma's battle is what allowed it to finish.  I suppose that works.

What I'm mainly not buying with the early infection theory, as you presented it, is a particular detail which is not key to the scenario: That is, that interrupting it ties to Zero's allegiance, or lack thereof, to Wily.  That, we do not know, and with Zero being for a fact infected as a result of the Sigma battle, before the virus is known to the world, it is extremely unlikely that the virus was not allowed to run its full course at that time.

While the virus makes Zero more open to instruction, I'm not convinced that the virus provides that instruction.  If it did, it would leave Zero too easy to manipulate by the likes of Sigma.  Given Zero's constant Wily dreams, such as X4, I'm banking that Wily has an independent means of instructing Zero, and that the virus, by quelling Zero's emotions, simply clears his head so that he will listen.  I'm also not convinced that the X1 body was ever intended to fully Awaken in the first place.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Zan on April 17, 2010, 05:17:12 PM
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Maybe the capsule emanates the virus, affecting anything OUTSIDE it, while remaining safely sealed itself?

The question would then be; what is Wily trying to accomplish? It's out of character to restrict himself to a local region, and we have to question if Wily would retry the virus thing again after Rockman10. He had some sort of change of heart, providing everyone with a cure for the Roboenza.

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The virus wasn't known to the Hunters until X3, so Zero Collection's timeline is clearly jumping around in that regard.

I acknowledge they jumped about with the part where they discovered the capsule was the source. Cain's Journal notes he is still clueless, as does X's question to Zero. Furthermore X Compendium notes the existence of Sigma Virus became known in X3. (What about X2 and Magne Centipede?) And the same summary acknowledges a complete link to Zero was not established until X6.

 But what's not possible to deny is the following:

A subspecies of the terrible computer virus from long ago is generated, and begins driving robots mad locally. The human leadership acknowledges these infected robots as Mavericks, and orders them to be disposed of.
Following through with the disposal of Mavericks, the human leadership decides to have Mavericks exterminated by Reploids, and forms the Maverick Hunters.


They use the Repliroids infected by the virus to introduce the first Irregulars which were disposed off. The Hunters are a follow up of that. Which places this more than 2 years before the incident with Zero.

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Looking at the other side, though, if Zero was already infected during stasis, then why is his fight with Sigma relevant at all?  What is the logic in battle damage allowing re-infection of something Zero was already sleeping in to begin with?

We know Zero has a natural physical immunity to the virus. The virus after infecting him is eliminated before it goes through his body toward his brain. Sleeping in a virus infested capsule without a change of mental state would be quite an exercise of Zero's immunity at work, perhaps even building it up so no other person can misuse his Zero through the use of a virus.

Remember, Zero was built to work with the virus. It's unthinkable that Wily did not test the virus on Zero beforehand, making Zero still the "first infected", even if the infection that turned him to good happened after the first irregulars.

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Zero shouldn't even have the same DNA data in X8 as in X1, given that the Control Chip is the only part to survive that timeframe.  But Zero and the virus (or the strain he was sealed with, anyway) have the same creator, and were developed towards a common goal.  That they should share a similarity, regardless of Zero's time of infection, is only natural.  That Sigma should associate it with Zero is only natural.

I'm beginning to think that Sigma meant that the virus was "made" with Zero's DNA, which would certainly solve that issue.

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What I'm mainly not buying with the early infection theory, as you presented it, is a particular detail which is not key to the scenario: That is, that interrupting it ties to Zero's allegiance, or lack thereof, to Wily.  That, we do not know, and with Zero being for a fact infected as a result of the Sigma battle, before the virus is known to the world, it is extremely unlikely that the virus was not allowed to run its full course at that time.

I think we shouldn't forget that in all other cases, damage counters viral control. Which is something we have to reconcile with this new info.. Damaging Zero returns him to his hunter self, but never facilitates a return to the violent  uncontrollable one. Zero is also still constantly spreading the virus, so it never fully left him and it IS altering his mental state. So, how do we reconcile that with "the virus purifies your body" and the whole process of awakening? The changed state of the Virus by its merger to Sigma strikes me as a vital aspect; was the original virus even set to establish an allegiance? (It does affect the regular Repliroids the same way, despite any changes.)

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While the virus makes Zero more open to instruction, I'm not convinced that the virus provides that instruction.  If it did, it would leave Zero too easy to manipulate by the likes of Sigma.  Given Zero's constant Wily dreams, such as X4, I'm banking that Wily has an independent means of instructing Zero, and that the virus, by quelling Zero's emotions, simply clears his head so that he will listen.  I'm also not convinced that the X1 body was ever intended to fully Awaken in the first place.

If the virus itself does not provide instruction. Then why can Wily not instruct Zero after the initial infection? I personally think the Sigma Virus does provide it, which is the reason for Sagesse getting on Sigma's good side. In X5, the Zero Virus nicely breaks Sigma's control on his Zero, complete with Wily's disembodied voice speaking to Zero as he is awakening.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Hypershell on April 17, 2010, 08:47:44 PM
The question would then be; what is Wily trying to accomplish? It's out of character to restrict himself to a local region, and we have to question if Wily would retry the virus thing again after Rockman10. He had some sort of change of heart, providing everyone with a cure for the Roboenza.
Then how do we get viral Mavericks prior to Zero's being released to begin with?  If we're still holding to that presupposition, then either Wily DID try it again, or some manner of mechanical/program failure is to blame.  It can't be outside tampering if Zero was undisturbed.

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(What about X2 and Magne Centipede?)
That simply means that Sigma (which is only logical) and probably the X-Hunters knew how to use it before the Maverick Hunters knew what it was, that's all.

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I think we shouldn't forget that in all other cases, damage counters viral control. Which is something we have to reconcile with this new info.. Damaging Zero returns him to his hunter self, but never facilitates a return to the violent uncontrollable one.
I'd put forward the theory that the Hunter is an intentional stage of Zero's development.  His Awakening, according to Sigma, was never completed, so he would fall back to the last "healthy" state.

Nevertheless that is a good question.  It's something we were always fuzzy on even before Inti's new timeline, though.  Whether it's an intentional safeguard of some kind, or the Awakening is not taking hold the way it should, is anyone's guess.

Something else we need to reconcile with this is from MMZ's own world: The copy body.  Sooner or later, the non-viral Hunter exists.  Whether that can occur naturally or is the result of Ciel's great grandmother doing some serious re-coding, that's guesswork.  But given Ciel's failure to re-create X, I'm not leaning much towards the latter.

I have a feeling that the Control Chip is key to this.  It is the lone piece of X1 Zero to survive, and judging by Serges is absolutely not replaceable, so whatever "growth" X1 Zero was experiencing had to be centered there.  At the same time, removing Zero's consciousness for research would mean removing that chip, would it not?  And without it, Weil has himself a "bloodthirsty God of Destruction"?

It seems to me that the initial modification to Zero's "Hunter" state was a permanent alteration irregardless of the virus's continued presence; similar to X installing the dash ability into his unarmored state.  Something that, from day one, was part of the plan, just not fully installed before the robot was activated.

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Then why can Wily not instruct Zero after the initial infection?
Who's to say he doesn't?  In X4, X5, and X6, Wily is in some manner speaking to Zero.  X5 is especially curious, telling Zero "what you must do", when the process of Awakening has already started.  The Awakened state may simply be the point at which Zero takes those words as instruction rather than some crazy voice in his head.

As for X2, although how similar a state we're looking at to X5 is rather questionable, it's always possible that Zero is only sticking with Sigma because it's the surest way to confront X.  There may not be anything more to it than that.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Zan on April 18, 2010, 12:33:44 AM
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some manner of mechanical/program failure is to blame.

Well, last I checked, capsules don't survive 100 year seals that well, being buried beneath a fallen ceiling or outright trashed by unspecified circumstances. At least, with the other two cases we have of those.

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I have a feeling that the Control Chip is key to this.  It is the lone piece of X1 Zero to survive, and judging by Serges is absolutely not replaceable, so whatever "growth" X1 Zero was experiencing had to be centered there.  At the same time, removing Zero's consciousness for research would mean removing that chip, would it not?  And without it, Weil has himself a "bloodthirsty God of Destruction"?

The control chip is simply Zero's brain chip. So yes, we would establish that the hunter Zero is an irreversible change to his personality program, remaining even after becoming a disembodied existence, and after the death of the Sigma Virus. Random Model V zappings, being the only known potential method of temporary reversion to that aggressive state, unless you're a fan of Ira's Madness In Red.... Dr. Vile of course having knowledge of working with the original body, which has the probability of containing the code of Zero's original violent self. Omega being based on that Zero. But Omega is Dr. Vile's slave? Vile succeeded where Wily failed?

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Something that, from day one, was part of the plan

But Inafune himself said "circumstances can change anything." Zero was not planned to stop in this intermediate phase; he was supposed to contain the Sigma Virus and become his true self. So either he was not intended to be infected with the virus just yet, or we go back to blaming a transfer from Zero to Sigma, as Inafune implied. After all, we just established that losing the virus after awakening returns him to hunter state.

To further go with the concept of Capsule>Zero>Sigma; It is instead Sigma that became uniquely one with the virus. None of the previous Irregulars responded to infection in this manner. We must acknowledge that the means with which Sigma were infected cannot compare to those that preceded him.

Quote
The Awakened state may simply be the point at which Zero takes those words as instruction rather than some crazy voice in his head.

But then you're just turning the question around; why isn't Zero accepting Wily's instructions prior to that? The Virus is still needed to force Zero to follow Wily.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Align on April 18, 2010, 12:46:54 AM
The question would then be; what is Wily trying to accomplish? It's out of character to restrict himself to a local region, and we have to question if Wily would retry the virus thing again after Rockman10. He had some sort of change of heart, providing everyone with a cure for the Roboenza.
Well, it infects from reploid to reploid, right? So once it's out there and infected specimens seek out others to fight/infect, it's just a matter of time until every reploid is infected or the world is a desolate wasteland. Job done there I guess.
As for MM10, I could imagine he did that as a test. Or maybe he learned from the mistakes of Saturday morning cartoon villains, who never try a scheme again after it fails from sheer dumb luck on the part of the heroes...
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Zan on April 18, 2010, 12:59:09 AM
Quote
As for MM10, I could imagine he did that as a test. Or maybe he learned from the mistakes of Saturday morning cartoon villains, who never try a scheme again after it fails from sheer dumb luck on the part of the heroes...

So, you're pretty much proposing Wily turned into a considerably darker villain? I suppose that's true if we look at both the Eurasia and Nightmare Incidents.

Of course, all of this leads us right back to the question of what the hell Wily's trying to accomplish in the whole X-series...
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Align on April 18, 2010, 01:03:57 AM
The Roboenza turned all the ordinary robots in Classic violent, didn't it? So unless he was wholeheartedly expecting to get trounced (whereupon he would cure every robot in the world), it doesn't really seem like the Sigma Virus is that much nastier in effect...
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Zan on April 18, 2010, 01:15:52 AM
The main point of note isn't so much the nastiness of the effect, as it is Wily being shown to have remorse for his actions, giving enough cures for everyone, where X-series Wily seemingly doesn't give a damn.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: KoiDrake on April 18, 2010, 01:37:07 AM
The Roboenza turned all the ordinary robots in Classic violent, didn't it? So unless he was wholeheartedly expecting to get trounced (whereupon he would cure every robot in the world), it doesn't really seem like the Sigma Virus is that much nastier in effect...
Was that really the effect of the Roboenza? Because Roll didn´t turned into a serial killer because of the virus. The RMs of MM10 were just holders of the cure for the disease, they weren´t infected as far as I can tell.
And Wily showing remorse for his acts was simply for receiving some help during that specific moment, that´ll surely won´t stop him from trying to conquer the world again on the future, so I don´t see why he wouldn´t design the Sigma Virus after this incident.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Align on April 18, 2010, 01:48:01 AM
The main point of note isn't so much the nastiness of the effect, as it is Wily being shown to have remorse for his actions, giving enough cures for everyone, where X-series Wily seemingly doesn't give a damn.
/me shrugs
That scene always felt out of character to me - remorse isn't like Wily, and neither is gratitude - so maybe it's just that the idea of the whole Roboenza episode being a test appeals to me..
Was that really the effect of the Roboenza? Because Roll didn´t turned into a serial killer because of the virus. The RMs of MM10 were just holders of the cure for the disease, they weren´t infected as far as I can tell.
It does say that they attack the city in the intro, so... Wouldn't be too far-fetched to say that the Lightbots get extra protection against such attacks, so it affects them less.
Dunno about the RMs, we don't get any dialogue or backstory so for all we know it could be Megaman being an intruder hurrdurring into their lairs that sets them off.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: marshmallow man on April 19, 2010, 06:07:42 PM
If we're to avoid the simple conclusion that Capcom and Inti's concept about what the virus is and does have simply changed over the years to the point where the old sources are obsolete outright...

I wrote this sometime last week, so it doesn't apply to all the previous discussion in the thread, but maybe it can further discussion. There's so many cluttered and contradictory ideas that the virus is supposed to satisfy, that I had a difficult time keeping it all orderly in my head. So I used lettering and numbering to try and organize my thoughts better, and also make arguing each single point a little easier.

Observations:
A. Zero was "bad" before Zero was "infected." (ZC Timeline)
B. Zero was armored against the virus. (ZC Timeline, also possibly corresponding to the various references to virus immunity)
C. Zero's DNA contains the virus program. (X6, X8)
D. Zero's power grows from virus exposure. (X5)


Hypothesis:
1. Zero was built to protect his mind against the virus. His DNA program contains information about the virus (perhaps a "core" piece of the virus code itself) to allow his automatic systems to recognize it and disperse it safely without doing harm to his cognitive program. Zero's body redirects the "energy/volition" of the virus and channels it into his power output, temporarily boosting his power.

Observations:
E. Zero's capsule emits the virus. (ZC)
F. Sigma broke through Zero's armoring and Zero got infected. (ZC, visually X4)
G. Zero's personality changed due to virus infection. (ZC)
H. The virus can cause the resurfacing of the latent evil personality within Zero (X5, visually X2).
I. The virus can cause aggressive and violent behavior in normal robots. (ZC, R10? all X series?)

Hypothesis:
2. Zero's damaged armor allowed the Virus to bypass his defenses (H-1) and enter Zero's cognitive program directly, causing...
2a. ...Zero's already heightened levels of negative emotions to overload and crash, resulting in a "blank slate" mode with bottomed-out aggression levels. Further virus infiltration can restore the emotional negativity to higher levels, but his body's defenses were restored and resumed their functions of virus suppression. Zero's defenses can be bypassed by access to his brain directly, or become overwhelmed by more virus than it can safely expel.
2b. ...a rewrite to the thought program by reversing the 'default' output levels for aggression checking, like turning a 0 to a 1. In Zero's unique case, because the aggression levels were already full by default, reversing the code caused the violence to recede. A different strain of virus might need to be tailored specifically to Zero to properly undo this effect, but this different virus would need to get past Zero's defenses to do so.  Zero's defenses can be bypassed by access to his brain directly, or become overwhelmed by more virus than it can safely expel.

Observations:
J. Zero is a virus carrier, and spreads the virus while working as a Hunter. (ZC, MZOCW, X6's Gate)

Hypothesis:
3a. Zero now has active virus infection (H-2a) in his brain which tries to copy itself and spread, but at the same time his body's defenses try to disperse the new virus even as it is made (H-1). At a time when Zero is acting aggressively and exerting high energy levels, like with battling with mavericks, his aggression creates copies of the virus which his body draws upon and expels, releasing virus to the surrounding environment.
3b. Zero's armor protects him from outside infection (H-1) but the infection already within himself (2b) occasionally builds up and leaks out. This can also occur if Zero's armor is damaged and his infected insides are exposed.

Observations:
K. The virus can revive the dead. (Ask Inafune, Sigma in X6)
L. The Sigma Virus is considered a kind of Cyber Elf. (ZC)
M. There exists a Cyber Space dimension where all functions of the physical world are manifested as data. (Z3, Telos booklet)
N*. Under certain conditions, rifts into Cyber Space can be created, causing anomalies. (*Conjecture based on X5's Zero Space, X6's Nightmare stage effects, Z3's Cyber Space Doors, ZX's Area M/N)


Hypothesis:
4. The virus, as a cyber elf, exists as a form of bridge between the dimensions of physical space and Cyber Space. Large concentrations of a powerful virus can (perhaps when combined with other factors) create overlaps where data from Cyber Space is brought into the physical world. The virus can be specifically utilized to draw the volition and memories of a departed soul's data back to the world of the living to be resurrected, either by complete error or by direction from someone with the knowledge and resources to do so.

Observations:
O. Wily had a side project in addition to his Zero project. (PF)
P. An ancient virus from space is the basis for the current Sigma Virus. (ZC)
Q. Rockman 10 contains a "threat from outer space". (R10 subtitle)

Hypothesis:
5a. Wily's side project was his creation of the Roboenza Virus, which he spread from his space station. After R10 Wily gave up on using it and stored his leftover virus in the same facility as Zero, where it eventually mutates and starts to spread through the facility and leak out through Zero's capsule, and incidentally brings Wily's data back from the dead.
5b. Wily's side project was a perfect form of the Roboenza Virus, which he continued to refine until his death for use in a new master plan to utilize it in conjunction with Zero somehow. That the virus brought him back from the dead however was unexpected.
5c. Wily's side project was a way for himself to cheat death, eventually using some form of the Roboenza virus as a centerpiece in his plan. Wily recognized the virus' potential expanded much further than just manipulating robots. He intentionally used the virus to resurrect himself upon his death.

I have a feeling these hardly scratch the surface of all the variant pieces of information that need explaining, and all these hypothesis, especially where they build off each other, may be well off the mark. For instance, I didn't really explore the nature of Zero's body changes and possible effects it could have on Hypothesis 1-3. I just wanted to establish at least one way where it might be possible to put it all together into a complete picture. I'll leave it to you guys to pick it all apart.

Reading through, I like some of the ideas in this thread. The virus being inside Zero's capsule to perform some kind of testing, that Wily just didn't shove Zero into a capsule to get rid of him, but to try and bring him around. And the virus perhaps increasing Zero's emotional coldness, where it seems to make everyone else more hotheaded. And that the "W" could still be something outside of the virus infection. I do think Wily has some manner of communicating with Zero during Zero's subconscious states, but I don't think we've ever seen a "W" appearing on his head in any time other than that one instance. But maybe that's because it's never been as strong again since that time.

Perhaps Sigma gets infected by the capsule, but also receives some of Zero's DNA with the immunity in it during their fight, allowing it to infect him uniquely as well? That might satisfy both seemingly contradictory notions about where Sigma's virus came from, but I have doubts whether it's not supposed to be one or the other.

I'll repeat this from our last supra-force argument, because it sounds like still nobody read it:

Quote from: me
Sigma in the Japanese version of X5 reflects that Awakened Zero was indeed complete, in personality anyway.
しんのすがたにもどれたのに...ゼロよ。ごくろうだったよ。
"Even though your true form had returned... Zero. Thank you for all your effort."

It's possible that Zero was able to increase his power during the course of the battle, but the evil persona was in place since the Shuttle Mission failure. Hence "Awakened" Zero, not "Awakening" or "almost Awakened."

Sigma finding Zero's evil form incomplete is a poor translation thing.

Moving on, the idea that the capsule was spreading the virus but was not what infected Zero really perplexed me. From my memory, there didn't seem to be much in the way of extraordinary about the capsule other than that Zero was sleeping/being constructed in it. I wanted to go back and see if there were any clues that the capsule was connected to the virus or leaking anything. It could all be a wild goose chase, but here's what I found.

(http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/7292/capsule1.png) (http://img695.imageshack.us/i/capsule1.png/)

Zero's capsule, with him in it. Since we've been told Zero wasn't sealed until after he was built, we might say that this is his version of the diagnostic/testing phase.

(http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/7040/capsule3.png) (http://img682.imageshack.us/i/capsule3.png/)

Zero waking up from the capsule, both seeming roughly undamaged from what can be told.

(http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/6223/capsule2.png) (http://img101.imageshack.us/i/capsule2.png/)

Capsule opened, and empty. After Zero left?

(http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/926/capsule4.png) (http://img689.imageshack.us/i/capsule4.png/)

Inside the capsule, Wily visible. This is from the intro/dream sequence instead of the ending. Is this directly after Zero's sealing, or before waking up? I never noticed that Zero's legs were colored wrong before.

So I didn't find much in the way of visible damage to the capsule itself. But there are those cords coming from Zero's capsule in the first shot where we can't see what they're connected to.

(http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/4185/symbol01.png) (http://img682.imageshack.us/i/symbol01.png/)

Could they be connected to this? Some kind of tanks. The one glowing purple doesn't seem to be connected to the wires, but maybe it's just hidden. The symbol on there is like a radiation warning symbol, except with 5 parts instead of 4. The only other place I remember seeing this symbol was in Zero 1's intro stage, but I don't think it's even visible without using an emulator or cheats.

(http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/9229/symbol00.gif) (http://img689.imageshack.us/i/symbol00.gif/)

Could this be some sort of hazardous symbol for robots? If related to the virus, does that make that a virus holding tank? Maybe the virus leaks out from these, or from the cable connections? Maybe there are two types of virus being held here?

(http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/6015/sleep1.png) (http://img390.imageshack.us/i/sleep1.png/)

Looks like the cables might be going to Zero's head... of course, they could be completely unrelated cables.

(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/6616/computers.png) (http://img153.imageshack.us/i/computers.png/)

The only other thing I thought might be significant, the three tube-looking containers on the right side of this picture. They vaguely remind me of the way the three huge containers in Wily's space station in R10 look, although those aren't explicitly said to be virus containers. It looks like there's yellow and purple substances mixing inside them, sort of like the yellow and purple lights on the tanks. It might be nothing, or might be something.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Zan on April 19, 2010, 11:53:28 PM
Quote
Hypothesis:
1. Zero was built to protect his mind against the virus.

This would be the case with his physical immunity, but we also shouldn't forget that the infection affects Zero uniquely, fixing exactly what needed to be fixed. At some point it seems that Wily indeed wanted the virus to affect Zero's mind. Perhaps Zero was awakened prematurely? I can't be stressed enough that the change to good wasn't planned by Wily. This applies to hypothesis 2a and 2b also.

Quote
H. The virus can cause the resurfacing of the latent evil personality within Zero (X5, visually X2).

I wouldn't say resurfacing. With the ZC Timeline, we effectively establish X4 evil Zero as clearly different; X2 and X5 were the first times we saw Zero's true self. Which demands a review of "???"'s remark about Zero having forgotten what he should be doing upon his X5 awakening.

Quote
Zero's body redirects the "energy/volition" of the virus and channels it into his power output, temporarily boosting his power.

You've got to wonder, how does that equate to Zero's "body" being "purified"?

Quote
J. Zero is a virus carrier, and spreads the virus while working as a Hunter.

MMZOCW, both within and outside of Three Keys, says that initially Zero was the only one infected before explaining this matter. Combined with RPM's hearsay, I feel we really need to reconcile this with the ZC Timeline.

Quote
3a, 3b

I like how you tried to explain such specifics as "during missions." I think you might be on to something with the damage to Zero's systems. If a defensive breach not only can promote infection, but further damage can actually promote the virus leaving his systems, the importance of Sigma's knockout punch can be highlighted in relation to Zero's reversion to hunter state in X2 and X5.

Quote
Hypothesis:
4.
Hypothesis:
5

I think going into the matter of Wily's revival might at current be going outside the scope of this topic too much.

Quote
Inside the capsule, Wily visible. This is from the intro/dream sequence instead of the ending. Is this directly after Zero's sealing, or before waking up? I never noticed that Zero's legs were colored wrong before.

I don't think we can even establish at what stage of construction Zero's at in that image. Remember that X was activated without even so much as a lower body. Zero's "dream" excepted, this is one of the few images in which Zero saw Wily himself seemingly alive, which stands in contrast with the "1XX ago" ZX timeline placement.

Quote
Could they be connected to this? Some kind of tanks. The one glowing purple doesn't seem to be connected to the wires, but maybe it's just hidden. The symbol on there is like a radiation warning symbol, except with 5 parts instead of 4. The only other place I remember seeing this symbol was in Zero 1's intro stage, but I don't think it's even visible without using an emulator or cheats.

This is a very nice find. I discovered the five part radiation warning symbol from ZERO1 myself, a few years back, but I never noticed X4 contained the exact same symbol.

The one from ZERO1 is definitely not visible in normal gameplay, just like I don't think the SIGMA is. But both are being drawn by the engine, even if off screen; they're not unused.

Either way, I've always considered this one reason to believe the reasons MMZOCW cite for Zero's sealing were Capcom/Inti's intend from the get go. And now, In combination with the obscure reference to X4, it certainly adds to our resources.

Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: marshmallow man on April 23, 2010, 01:47:08 AM
Quote
I wouldn't say resurfacing. With the ZC Timeline, we effectively establish X4 evil Zero as clearly different; X2 and X5 were the first times we saw Zero's true self. Which demands a review of "???"'s remark about Zero having forgotten what he should be doing upon his X5 awakening.

Indeed, the berserker bloodlust is controlled and focused when he awakens, yet the brutality and remorselessness shines through. It surely can be considered a third stage of personality for Zero like never existed before. The way I was thinking of it, the memories and broad evil aspects of the first personality resurface, but rather than acting as a wholly separate state of consciousness from Hunter Zero and returning exactly as it existed before, the evil persona merges with Zero's current mind to become the Awakened Zero. But certainly there are other ways of looking at it now.

Quote
You've got to wonder, how does that equate to Zero's "body" being "purified"?

In the context of the dialog, Sigma was discussing how Zero received a power boost from the virus. So maybe he's simply referring to the greater power output that the virus makes possible. Beyond that, perhaps the viral strains attuned to the form of Zero's body like the Zero Virus could be designed to make certain "purifying" alterations. That's probably the best I can think of that could fit within the context of my questionable hypothesis.

Quote
MMZOCW, both within and outside of Three Keys, says that initially Zero was the only one infected before explaining this matter. Combined with RPM's hearsay, I feel we really need to reconcile this with the ZC Timeline.

I tried to work around this to meet them halfway, by suggesting that the virus is encoded in Zero's DNA (even though that doesn't quite make him "infected.") The way they laid out the timeline, Zero simply cannot be the first infected. He can be among the first, he can be the earliest infected to still be surviving, but being the actual first first doesn't work.

Unless, we're talking about more than one virus strain coming into play. Certainly Zero isn't the first to be infected with Roboenza (of course nothing prior to R10 should be expected to have taken Roboenza into account), but if they're considering Sigma Virus strains separately, perhaps the strain that leaked out of the capsule wasn't the same as the one they're saying Zero was the first to be infected with. Was Zero infected with something before he awoke, and then after awakening got infected with a different strain? Or did what they consider to be the first true Sigma Virus strain not exist until Zero (and Sigma) was infected with it... but then they went and said that the same strain that leaked out later became known as Sigma Virus, so so much for that. If they had just let those first mavericks be the results of various chip errors or *gasp* free will itself, there wouldn't be a problem here... but alas.

Quote
I don't think we can even establish at what stage of construction Zero's at in that image. Remember that X was activated without even so much as a lower body. Zero's "dream" excepted, this is one of the few images in which Zero saw Wily himself seemingly alive, which stands in contrast with the "1XX ago" ZX timeline placement.

It probably can't be 100% established. My thoughts were that the image of Zero we see being constructed in his X5 ending, with no capsule visible around him, might be his equivalent of X's Day of Sigma bouts consciousness during actual creation. Anything involving a capsule like we see in X4 then would then be after Zero proved to be uncontrollable and was sealed. So maybe this was right after Wily got him into the capsule before he lost total consciousness. Or, if Wily was already brought back by the virus and using some artificial form that resembled his previous one, and if that revived Wily was the one who woke Zero intentionally, it could also be a glimpse Zero had while being revived by Wily's ghost. Of course, just because we can't see a capsule in that X5 image doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't constructed in one, and the status of Wily's physical survival is ever in question, so it's all on shaky ground as it stands.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Zan on April 23, 2010, 06:16:13 PM
Quote
I tried to work around this to meet them halfway, by suggesting that the virus is encoded in Zero's DNA (even though that doesn't quite make him "infected.") The way they laid out the timeline, Zero simply cannot be the first infected. He can be among the first, he can be the earliest infected to still be surviving, but being the actual first first doesn't work.

I figured the "first infected" statement works in a couple of ways. Noting that RPM says Zero was perhaps born with it, and that Wily put it inside of him, and going with the X4/ZERO1 radiation symbol, I'd say it's likely that Wily had indeed tried to infect Zero upon his creation. Either to test the virus' workings on Zero's psyche, to gradually build up his immunity, or to strengthen Zero by use of the immunity. Leaving us with a Zero that does spread the virus, but has yet to be infected to facilitate the change to good. Zero can after all be infected many times, only for his immunity to counter that infection, until the moment that his immunity is breached and the virus reaches his brain.

Quote
(and Sigma) was infected with it...

I still wonder about the details of Sigma's own infection. Can you clarify what Sigma himself said in RockmanX8?

Quote
If they had just let those first mavericks be the results of various chip errors or *gasp* free will itself, there wouldn't be a problem here... but alas.

I think doing that would have conflicted with the established concept of "irregular of one's own accord" presented with Sigma, VAVA and Lumine.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Flame on April 23, 2010, 11:50:13 PM
Haha, can you believe I never actually noticed Wily was in that capsule Zero POV screen? I never even noticed someone was THERE.

real nice finds on those screens.

Actually, When I think of it, during Zero's dream, there are also shown schematics, with graphs and such shown next to them.
(http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/3022/zero6.jpg)

If we are to make suggestions that those tanks and cords, and those purple/yellow tubes have something to do with the Virus, and that SOMETHING is being done to Zero with it, (be it testing, building immunity, introducing it into his head, whatever,) Could those graphs have something to do with that as well? (Although it says Irregular Zero... Something that seems out of place... lack of translating irregular aside.)
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Mirby on April 24, 2010, 12:46:16 AM
Hmm... that is interesting. Considering that the term Irregular (aka Maverick) wasn't made until the X series began, one has to wonder why that term is there...
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Align on April 24, 2010, 01:19:25 AM
Maybe it's from when he was being examined at MHHQ after Sigma captured him?
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Zan on April 24, 2010, 01:43:51 AM
Quote
(Although it says Irregular Zero... Something that seems out of place... lack of translating irregular aside.)

Then you'd be surprised to know there are other schematics in that same scene which read "irregular hunter".
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: marshmallow man on April 24, 2010, 01:55:14 AM

Quote
I figured the "first infected" statement works in a couple of ways. Noting that RPM says Zero was perhaps born with it, and that Wily put it inside of him, and going with the X4/ZERO1 radiation symbol, I'd say it's likely that Wily had indeed tried to infect Zero upon his creation. Either to test the virus' workings on Zero's psyche, to gradually build up his immunity, or to strengthen Zero by use of the immunity. Leaving us with a Zero that does spread the virus, but has yet to be infected to facilitate the change to good. Zero can after all be infected many times, only for his immunity to counter that infection, until the moment that his immunity is breached and the virus reaches his brain.

Niiiiiice, Zan. Perfect. Cut, print, that's a wrap.

Quote
I still wonder about the details of Sigma's own infection. Can you clarify what Sigma himself said in RockmanX8?

I'll see what I can do when I get back.

Quote
I think doing that would have conflicted with the established concept of "irregular of one's own accord" presented with Sigma, VAVA and Lumine.

I think it would have fit fine. Some reploids already didn't need a virus to be jerks.

Quote
Then you'd be surprised to know there are other schematics in that same scene which read "irregular hunter".

We're not going to have to try to account for that famous flub, are we?
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Mirby on April 24, 2010, 01:57:32 AM
??? Now that is odd... Meh, no matter.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Rodrigo Shin on April 24, 2010, 02:26:14 AM
Quote
what Sigma said in RockmanX8?
I'll see what I can do when I get back.
This help?
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Flame on April 24, 2010, 03:52:51 AM
??? Now that is odd... Meh, no matter.
What's odd?
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Zan on April 24, 2010, 03:01:40 PM
Quote
I think it would have fit fine. Some reploids already didn't need a virus to be jerks.

But having the majority of Irregulars caused by defected thought circuits removes the special aspect from VAVA. Who for that very reason falls within that small niche Sigma considers irregulars of their own accord.

Quote
We're not going to have to try to account for that famous flub, are we?

(http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/3267/x4ihz.jpg)

Well, if we're going to make some sense of the "1XX years ago" statement.. This image being famous not only for the "Irregular Hunter Zero" label, but also for the many X2 design elements on an X1 Zero. You'd think the creators of the X4 anime sequences would be well aware of either of these things. After all, they're the ones that established X1 and X2 Zero as distinctly different; they're the ones that revealed Zero was originally an Irregular.

Chalk it up to Zero's dreams being messed up as dreams usually are, I suppose.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Mirby on April 24, 2010, 09:02:27 PM
Chalk it up to Zero's dreams being messed up as dreams usually are, I suppose.
That's... that's what I was going to say... :D
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: marshmallow man on April 25, 2010, 04:55:26 PM
Marsh & Rod presents... X8 (in COLOR)

Sigma:
So we meet again, Zero...
How fitting that none other than yourself should bear witness to the end of the world!

Zero... the inherent ultimate destroyer.
The virus I acquired from that DNA allowed me to lay siege to this world...

And, so... you could say that's when it all began,
the beginning of the end of everything, don't you agree?

Zero:
How much irregular bullshit do you expect me to take...?


Quote
But having the majority of Irregulars caused by defected thought circuits removes the special aspect from VAVA. Who for that very reason falls within that small niche Sigma considers irregulars of their own accord.

The early handful of incidents would have little bearing on Vile's importance to Sigma. When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Quote
Well, if we're going to make some sense of the "1XX years ago" statement.. This image being famous not only for the "Irregular Hunter Zero" label, but also for the many X2 design elements on an X1 Zero. You'd think the creators of the X4 anime sequences would be well aware of either of these things. After all, they're the ones that established X1 and X2 Zero as distinctly different; they're the ones that revealed Zero was originally an Irregular.

You'd also think they'd get the main characters' eye colors right. I'm fine with calling a mistake a mistake.
I think the animators must have been given Zero's old X3 model kit box as a reference (or perhaps some common piece of source material that the model kit's art was also based on), and they used the English from it without giving it a second thought, the contradiction getting overlooked. That box is the only other place I can think of that used "breast" armor instead of "chest" armor.

That reminds me though, I wonder how the "Z-brain" and "Z-heart" lens functions mentioned in the Rockman X4 Saikyou Daizukan would fit into the current scenario. Maybe the Z-brain acts as the virus armor for his mind, while the Z-heart concentrates and converts the virus to boost his power...?
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Zan on April 25, 2010, 05:24:11 PM
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Marsh & Rod presents...

Thanks.

And this only further establishes Sigma had to had gotten the virus from Zero, not his capsule..

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The early handful of incidents would have little bearing on Vile's importance to Sigma. When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Sigma put importance on VAVA not just because of his combat capabilities, but also his mental state. By having nearly everyone have defects in their electronic brains, ruins what makes VAVA special.

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I think the animators must have been given Zero's old X3 model kit box as a reference

Whilst that might explain the terms present, it doesn't explain the use of both an X1 and a pseudo-X1 Zero design.

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the "Z-brain" and "Z-heart"

The what? Feel free to provide us with more info.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Flame on April 25, 2010, 09:02:05 PM
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Sigma put importance on VAVA not just because of his combat capabilities, but also his mental state. By having nearly everyone have defects in their electronic brains, ruins what makes VAVA special.
I disagree. I personally- Think Vava is pretty special no matter what. Not only is he an irregular of his own accord, but you could say he always was one. He was made with the defect, he always enjoyed destruction, It got him into trouble as a Hunter. I think its more not just the defect that makes him special, but just everything that makes him who he is. from his look to his personality, to his abilities, and his history.
If we had well, lets take Larry as an example again, if he were compared to Vava, he still wouldnt really compare. he would just be like any other reploid gone nuts. He would be terminated, end of story.

Yet our purple/blue/green faceless friend here, is not just "a reploid gone nuts". The defect is said to cause his destructive persona. Thats just the thing though. He was always that way, from the very start. And his defect is unique in making him who he is. He is a war machine, from head to toe. He is an A class Ex hunter. he has a grudge against X, and constantly sides with Sigma, because Sigma allows him to run rampant as long as he serves him. even with introduction of other reploids with defects, it really wouldnt damage Vava's uniqueness at all. Thats like saying Colonel isnt unique because Signas happens to resemble him. they have similar features, but both are unique. In the same way, even if both Vava and Larry here are irregulars caused by defect, doesnt make Vava any less special. in fact, it makes him MORE special. Because out of a small group of reploids that are made with defects and either do or do not go nuts because of them, He stands out, he is unique, he is superior, he is Vava, the over destructive A class hunter who has revived over and over, and will haunt X to the day he dies.

Also, defect? He has been revived over and over, and he is always the same, and while the initial Vava had the defect in his brain, im not so certain that his subsequent bodies would have such a flaw in their design. yet he remains the same.

For the sake of argument, lets say that he was eventually repaired of his defect. He was still destructive for God knows how long. That is his personality. Its who he is. Are you so sure The defect si what KEEPS him that way? Its what casued it, but thats what he has become and always will be, he cannot change, and doesnt care to. He has developed a destructive personality. Its not just caused, but learned behavior as well. Its become part of him.

Which is another reason why he is so unique.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: marshmallow man on April 25, 2010, 09:37:41 PM
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And this only further establishes Sigma had to had gotten the virus from Zero, not his capsule..

Before ZC's timeline, I would have said it was all but fact.

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Sigma put importance on VAVA not just because of his combat capabilities, but also his mental state. By having nearly everyone have defects in their electronic brains, ruins what makes VAVA special.

Because Vile has a natural tendency towards hate, cruelty and violence, no other reploid in the world can also have that trait? I don't really buy that. Though we don't have any exact statistical data, if there are millions of reploids in the world and we say that 1 in a thousand or even less that had a defect in their brains, it can be considered both a rare but not unheard of trait. For every reploid that goes maverick, how many reploids don't? How many of those defects are unique model reploids and not a random error of mass production? How many of them have Special A Hunter combat skills? If Vile couldn't kick ass the way he does, his mental state would be of no more individual consequence to Sigma than the average stage enemy's reasons for fighting. Vile is the right guy in the right place at the right time. He's still special because he's just the right mix of madness and power to shake things up the way Sigma wants, and that wouldn't be significantly diminished whether there's a thousand other defective reploids or a thousand other combat reploids. There's still only one Vile.

Edit: (I totally missed Flame's post)
Quote from: Flame
Also, defect? He has been revived over and over, and he is always the same, and while the initial Vava had the defect in his brain, im not so certain that his subsequent bodies would have such a flaw in their design. yet he remains the same.

Of course, the people who revived him likely planned to use his violence to their own ends, and so probably had in mind that he stay roughly the same way once resurrected. But it's still a pretty interesting basis, the defect is only a flaw from the standpoint of someone who wanted him to turn out some other way. One man's personality defect is another man's proudly unique sense of character.

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Whilst that might explain the terms present, it doesn't explain the use of both an X1 and a pseudo-X1 Zero design.

It might, all it would take is for an illustrator working from multiple sources to get a little mixed up on what minor design trait belonged in the picture and what didn't, and for nobody to correct it. Unless Inafune has some inside story behind it, we'll probably never know.

Of course if we wanted to apply a plot explanation we could chalk up the differences to it being an intermediate phase in Wily's style designs, but of course the Irregular Hunter label couldn't be excused in the same way. Zero's buggy memory might be the best excuse to overlook it, since either way it's in error.


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The what? Feel free to provide us with more info.

I thought we'd discussed it before, especially since it's part of the same page that says Zero's made of Titanium Z and uses solar energy, conflicting with other sources that say atomic power. Maybe I skipped some of the details though, so here's the whole section.

Quote from: Rockman X4 Saikyou Daizukan, page 77
4. The Secrets of Zero's Body and Abilities

He possesses abilities no less amazing than X's, and with just as many mysteries surrounding them!

Zero self-destructed in "Rockman X", only to be revived by Sagesse in "X2". (That's the reason for the design changes around his shoulder area and such.) His power source is solar energy like X, while his body material is comprised of a Titanium Z alloy, and is equipped with peculiar mechanisms called the Z-brain (the head lens)  and the Z-heart (the chest lens), which conceal an unknown power.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Mirby on April 25, 2010, 10:03:50 PM
So the boob lights are the Z-heart?
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Flame on April 25, 2010, 10:04:18 PM
"lens" Would those be those two rond gems in the X4 Zero ending? one big one in the middle of his chest, and the other on his head?

(http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/6015/sleep1.png)
these?
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: marshmallow man on April 25, 2010, 10:15:42 PM
Probably. They didn't supply a picture showing exactly what they meant in the book. Zero's insides don't look quite the same way when shown in X5, but he still seems to have a upper chest gem and a head gem underneath, so I imagine the vague idea holds true. That page is the only place that ever talks about them, so far as I know.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Flame on April 25, 2010, 10:21:56 PM
Well in X5, it actually looks justa s if not more suspicious, as it has a "W" on it. And if wily was gonna put a W anywhere it would be the outside, not the inside of his creation.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Mirby on April 25, 2010, 10:42:52 PM
There aren't W's on any of his RMs, so why would Zero be any different?
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Zan on April 26, 2010, 12:19:22 AM
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Before ZC's timeline, I would have said it was all but fact.

But ZC's timeline does not specify how Sigma got infected. Yes, it says that virus comes from the capsule, but that's ultimately where Zero's also comes from. Even if Zero gives it to Sigma, it still comes from the capsule.

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It might, all it would take is for an illustrator working from multiple sources to get a little mixed up on what minor design trait belonged in the picture and what didn't, and for nobody to correct it. Unless Inafune has some inside story behind it, we'll probably never know.

X5 also occasionally shows intermediate designs. And these "minor design traits" are fixed within an identical, but colored image within the same scene.

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conflicting with other sources that say atomic power

About which Zero are these conflicting sources talking, X1 Zero, X2 Zero, or X6 Zero?

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(That's the reason for the design changes around his shoulder area and such.)

This is you or the book speaking?

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which conceal an unknown power.

Which they never bothered to elaborate on...
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Flame on April 26, 2010, 12:47:26 AM
There aren't W's on any of his RMs, so why would Zero be any different?
Well, exactly. there arent, yet Zero has a W on his person. Now, if Wily was gonna put it somewhere, it would be the OUTSIDE, no? yet its not only on the crystal, but on a crystal that does not appear externally, something which is very odd.

A hidden, internal gem on his upper chest with a 'W" on it, and a note of a "Z-Heart"
Something seems to fit right.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: marshmallow man on April 26, 2010, 02:34:50 AM
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But ZC's timeline does not specify how Sigma got infected. Yes, it says that virus comes from the capsule, but that's ultimately where Zero's also comes from. Even if Zero gives it to Sigma, it still comes from the capsule.

It is pretty specific, actually. Sigma and Zero were both infected at around the same time (literally, "douji ni" could be implying simultaneously) by the unknown computer virus that was explicitly said to be leaking from the capsule in the very same sentence.

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X5 also occasionally shows intermediate designs. And these "minor design traits" are fixed within an identical, but colored image within the same scene.

X5 has its own oddities, be they intentional or mistakes. Maybe whoever the scene's colorist was had a better grasp of what things should be when working on that image.

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About which Zero are these conflicting sources talking, X1 Zero, X2 Zero, or X6 Zero?

Simply Zero, with no suggestion that the power source ever changed between games. The first source citing an atomic powered engine is from a Cyber Mission guide, so both ideas were presented before X6 came around.

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This is you or the book speaking?

All the text in parenthesis there is what is written in the book.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Zan on April 26, 2010, 08:35:01 PM
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It is pretty specific, actually. Sigma and Zero were both infected at around the same time (literally, "douji ni" could be implying simultaneously) by the unknown computer virus that was explicitly said to be leaking from the capsule in the very same sentence.

I still don't see how it's mutually exclusive. Sigma was after all constantly in the vicinity of this virus spreading capsule that even infected Zero. It just means Sigma got something extra whilst punching Zero's lights out, passing that along from Zero to him.

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Simply Zero, with no suggestion that the power source ever changed between games. The first source citing an atomic powered engine is from a Cyber Mission guide, so both ideas were presented before X6 came around.

But if the first source saying Atomic is Cyber Mission, then it seems like another one of those "X5 team" things. Like Sigma being the first Repliroid. If that X4 quote is the only one that mention solar, I would perhaps attribute it to just X1 Zero, since the context is heavily related to Zero's origins, if you ignore the mention of his revival by Sagesse.

However, if it's just Cyber Mission, and not anything after X3... What about the damage to Zero's power system that happened in that game? Do any other sources mention Atomic?
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Flame on April 26, 2010, 10:57:18 PM
I still don't see how it's mutually exclusive. Sigma was after all constantly in the vicinity of this virus spreading capsule that even infected Zero. It just means Sigma got something extra whilst punching Zero's lights out, passing that along from Zero to him.
That actually gets me thinking...

Considering all these mentions of a "Peculiar" Z brain and Heart, which seem to "which conceal an unknown power", and the fact that there are constantly both 2 strange canisters with purple and yellow lights, and tubes, as if mixing something, with yellow and purple in X4's cutscenes, (with, may I add, a biohazard symbol that resembles something seen in Zero 1 in the abandoned lab)

And now you mention that Sigma was constantly exposed to the virus, yet possibly caught something MORE when punching Zero in the head and smashing his headgem...

could it be that the components to the Virus, or whatever Wily originally had, POSSIBLY for use with Zero, (to mess around with that excessive violence caused by his cognitive flaw) was composed to two parts? one in the "Z-Brain" and another in the "Z-Heart"? The two of which either together (or used separately within each lens) would affect Zero uniquely and make the "Awakened" state we saw in X5? (And I think X2, you mentioned as well)

Maybe each was supposed to affect his heart and brain separately?

Im stretching it a bit, but just wondering
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: rock_volnutt2010 on May 05, 2010, 12:33:41 AM
true. in X6 gate found zero's DNA trying to analysing it but then gate was infected unnoticed because zero's DNA was still infected bu the virus after X5 that how gate created the nightmare virus. zero came back alive as the nightmare zero since X was dreaming about zero he should fight him and bring back to normal. the nightmare virus can cause other reploids to go irregular that would be bad zero was surprised that his DNA was on gate that he was holding zero blaming himself causing to the entire world.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Mirby on May 05, 2010, 12:34:22 AM
We've already established this.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Flame on May 05, 2010, 01:30:36 AM
true. in X6 gate found zero's DNA trying to analysing it but then gate was infected unnoticed because zero's DNA was still infected bu the virus after X5 that how gate created the nightmare virus. zero came back alive as the nightmare zero since X was dreaming about zero he should fight him and bring back to normal. the nightmare virus can cause other reploids to go irregular that would be bad zero was surprised that his DNA was on gate that he was holding zero blaming himself causing to the entire world.
first of all, Nightmare Zero is not Zero, he is a clone.
second, I STILL dont understad you.
third, from what i can gather, we have already established that stuff, and it has nothing to do with the subject matter...
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Hypershell on May 09, 2010, 07:06:46 AM
Hoo boy, time for Hyper to play a lot of catch-up...

But Omega is Dr. Vile's slave? Vile succeeded where Wily failed?
More like both have their own methods, parallel branches along the same tree.  Recall, if you will, that even without Dark Elf (one of many Sigma Virus derivatives), Omega still resonates the same energy signature as Dark Elf.

I'm not convinced that Wily is "failing" with Zero.  He aptly demonstrated in X6 (and is further implied in X4) that if he wanted to capture Zero, nothing's stopping him.  For some reason or another, it seems to me that he wants to take a more passive role.

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After all, we just established that losing the virus after awakening returns him to hunter state.
In what way does getting one's ass kicked by X constitute losing the virus?  We know from Alia that "killed" qualifies under that, but not so with merely "beaten".

Quote from: Justify
That scene always felt out of character to me - remorse isn't like Wily, and neither is gratitude - so maybe it's just that the idea of the whole Roboenza episode being a test appeals to me..
Personally, I'm still wide open to holding the Quint future as valid (Wily sincerely reforms, then re-evaluates his life after encountering his past evil self and betraying Rock).  If such were the case, it would only be natural for Classic Wily to be a bit more compassionate than X-series Wily.  I will admit that 10's ending was unexpected, though.

The question of what Wily is trying to accomplish in 21XX seems to be everlasting.  While I believe he's going less the world domination route and focusing more on his personal rivalry, it is simply my own personal speculation, and none of the recent info seems to impact it too much.

Quote from: Marshmallow Man
Sigma finding Zero's evil form incomplete is a poor translation thing.
Man, you really can't trust X5's translations, huh?  Now you have me wondering how Zero responds to the Light capsules.

Quote from: Zan
I can't be stressed enough that the change to good wasn't planned by Wily.
I'm not convinced of that.  It's possible that the Hunter stage was intentional even if Wily's ultimate end for Zero turns out to be evil, as a "learning process" to aid Zero's growth.  Zero, like X, learns from experience in battle; what better way to ensure X does not challenge Zero prematurely than for Zero to gain experience on X's side?  Note that Learning System attacks have appeared as part of Omega's arsenal, as well as seemingly being the base from which several of Awakened Zero's attacks are derived.

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I like how you tried to explain such specifics as "during missions." I think you might be on to something with the damage to Zero's systems. If a defensive breach not only can promote infection, but further damage can actually promote the virus leaving his systems, the importance of Sigma's knockout punch can be highlighted in relation to Zero's reversion to hunter state in X2 and X5.
Might also go a ways to explaining how nobody at Hunter Base noticed.  The Hunters have been aware of the virus since X3 and have been researching it since X5 at the absolute latest.  While it's true that the virus can often defy their analysis, especially with Zero, one does have to wonder how nothing even remotely suspicious (sans antivirus reactions) ever turned up while Zero was "chilling" at home.  Even if Zero himself showed no reaction wouldn't they notice if viral infections were following the same trail as him?  One only continues to raise eyebrows at that with X8's talks of the Hunters testing New Gen viral immunity.

Basically, if Zero is only spreading the virus in areas that are already combat zones to begin with, it would explain a lot.  Would fit nicely with my above question about him reverting at defeat, as well.  It's still conjecture, but it does fit nicely.

But then we arrive at the same question, to what end?  If the Hunter personna was established as permanent, others should be able to be written as permanent as well.  If it is indeed the ideal state for Zero to learn new abilities, then that would lend more credit to such a fall-back upon defeat as being intentional.

Quote from: Marshmallow Man
If they had just let those first mavericks be the results of various chip errors or *gasp* free will itself, there wouldn't be a problem here... but alas.
I personally would really like to know what kind of chip error-to-virus ratio we're dealing with in X1.  In playing MHX and re-examining The Day Of Sigma, the emphasis I'm seeing on X's worrying is that first-gen Reploids, in general, tend to be more ruthless than X is (X's compassion is always his defining trait, but X1 'roids strike me as less "human" in personality than later characters).  When you remove sympathy for others, it's not a small leap to think of disposing the weak to advance the superior race, or "sacrifice for evolution" is perfectly acceptable.

Quote from: Zan
But having the majority of Irregulars caused by defected thought circuits removes the special aspect from VAVA.
I think the MHX statement of "someone who can go Maverick of their own accord" references Sigma's position as a leader as much as it does viral manipulation.  Playing through MHX, I took notice that virtually nobody seems to actually believe in Sigma's cause.  The bosses are mostly following Sigma for the sake of following their leader (Spark Mandrill, Armored Armadillo), occasionally reaping some personal benefits (Chill Penguin, Launch Octopus).  Flame Mammoth is basically Vile on a leash.  Then there's Storm Eagle and Sting Chameleon who are seemingly being forced.  Boomer Kuwanger is about the only one who actually thinks about what's going on, and he's more centered on X's combat abilities than anything else.

Vile is unique in that he, like Sigma, was willing to challenge the status of the world.  The others who had gone Maverick did so only by Sigma's manipulation, whether the virus was or was not part of that manipulation is irrelevant.  One way or the other they would never have rebelled without Sigma.  With Vile, however, Sigma merely turned him loose and let him do as he pleased.

Quote from: Marshmallow Man
Probably. They didn't supply a picture showing exactly what they meant in the book. Zero's insides don't look quite the same way when shown in X5, but he still seems to have a upper chest gem and a head gem underneath, so I imagine the vague idea holds true. That page is the only place that ever talks about them, so far as I know.
I feel compelled to point out that X4's designs are identical to those of the armor kit figures, which are the same between X and Zero (barring faces and chest gem colors).  In X5 they probably felt the need to offer something a little more unique.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Mirby on May 09, 2010, 07:16:49 AM
Boomer Kuwanger is about the only one who actually thinks about what's going on, and he's more centered on X's combat abilities than anything else.
See? Not only does his stage have badass music, but he's pretty intelligent himself.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Saber on May 09, 2010, 01:58:47 PM
See? Not only does his stage have badass music, but he's pretty intelligent himself.

Kuwanger is described in the IHX manual as a pretty rational guy who thought that joining Sigma's cause was the only logical choice, ignoring whether it's right or wrong. Furthermore, he is noted for being very effective when it comes to gathering and evaluating combat data.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Hypershell on May 09, 2010, 03:54:14 PM
He must be.  He's about the only Maverick besides Sigma who took notice that there is more to X than a direct specs comparison.  That's something most baddies didn't get through their skulls even as late as X3.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Flame on May 09, 2010, 04:26:57 PM
Isnt the smart Kuwanger angle something that was also done by Iwamoto? Hell, Iwamoto Kuwanger went as far as to upload his brain into a supercomputer in the tower, with some sort of connection wirelessly to his body
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Zan on May 09, 2010, 06:04:27 PM
Quote
More like both have their own methods, parallel branches along the same tree.  Recall, if you will, that even without Dark Elf (one of many Sigma Virus derivatives), Omega still resonates the same energy signature as Dark Elf.

I'm not convinced that Wily is "failing" with Zero.  He aptly demonstrated in X6 (and is further implied in X4) that if he wanted to capture Zero, nothing's stopping him.  For some reason or another, it seems to me that he wants to take a more passive role.

But he contained a flaw in his cognitive program that made him violent and unwilling to obey instructions, so Dr. Wily himself sealed Zero in a capsule.

Zero contained a flaw in his cognitive program for which Wily sealed him. That is Wily at the beginning failing to properly complete Zero's cognitive program. Wily has found a way around that with X2 and X5, but initially he seemingly didn't. Dr. Vile on the other hand, has no problem reprogramming a virusless Zero to become his slave. Which is rather surprising with Wily's own initial problems, and the mental instability of such copies as the Zero Nightmare. But then, we do not know the mental state of X2's copy, and TvC's Zero vs Zero battle also seemingly has both Zeros equally sane.

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In what way does getting one's ass kicked by X constitute losing the virus?  We know from Alia that "killed" qualifies under that, but not so with merely "beaten".

Then it begs the question of how we describe Techno's, Doppler's and Gate's return to normalcy after getting beat up by X. But, maybe Zero works completely different than regular Repliroids? After all, the piece of DNA Gate found was spreading the virus like crazy.

Iwamoto's X2 Zero vs X scenario had X punching out a Sigma Virus chip within Zero's head lens (Z-brain?)  and so returning Zero to normalcy. This scenario works very nicely with what we see in X2 the game. But compared to X5, in which we can't really establish a loss of the virus by beating up Zero, maybe we should at a different reason for his suddenly sacrificing himself for X? Was that Hunter Zero, or actually the awakened Zero giving up his life? More on that a few quotes below.

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I'm not convinced of that.

Zero and Sigma's change in allegiance represents "circumstances can change anything". Ergo, not as planned. There may be some planned aspect that worked toward it, but it was not intended in that way, at that time, with those results.

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Might also go a ways to explaining how nobody at Hunter Base noticed. 

I just wonder what that means for the poor smuck that has to repair the virus spreading damaged Zero. Considering the difficulty of that, maybe the human Cain did it all the time?

Quote
If the Hunter personna was established as permanent, others should be able to be written as permanent as well.  If it is indeed the ideal state for Zero to learn new abilities, then that would lend more credit to such a fall-back upon defeat as being intentional.

Zero's Hunter Person might be "ideal", but its lack of order input would not be. Wily has no control over this Zero, but he certainly seems eager in keeping that brain chip. Inafune specifies that change to good as circumstance; Zero should still remain evil. But the evil Zero's personality isn't really that different from the Hunter Zero; only the person that is his reason for fighting has changed. Which goes a long way to explaining how X5's awakened Zero actually sacrificed himself for X; fighting for X and fighting for Wily. With Sigma trying to kill X with the battle of destiny yet incomplete, what is best for both X and Wily coincide. Sigma himself threatened Wily's rivalry then and there.

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I took notice that virtually nobody seems to actually believe in Sigma's cause.

Spark Mandriller?
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Saber on May 09, 2010, 06:10:03 PM
Spark Mandriller?

Mandriller does not necessarily have to believe in Sigma's cause. He merely notes that it might as well be X who's in the wrong. And besides, Mandriller himself is not the brightest light in the sky.

Quote
SPARK MANDRILLER: Do you think Commander Sigma is insane, X?
X: He's no commander. Not anymore. He's nothing but a Maverick now.
SPARK MANDRILLER: Now, X... You've never thought that maybe Sigma was right and
you were wrong?
X: ...
SPARK MANDRILLER: I don't like thinking either... Maybe we can find the answer
together... in battle!
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Hypershell on May 09, 2010, 07:12:14 PM
Mandrill expresses what is at best a gut instinct.  He clearly doesn't want to think too hard about it.

Zero contained a flaw in his cognitive program for which Wily sealed him. That is Wily at the beginning failing to properly complete Zero's cognitive program. Wily has found a way around that with X2 and X5, but initially he seemingly didn't. Dr. Vile on the other hand, has no problem reprogramming a virusless Zero to become his slave. Which is rather surprising with Wily's own initial problems, and the mental instability of such copies as the Zero Nightmare. But then, we do not know the mental state of X2's copy, and TvC's Zero vs Zero battle also seemingly has both Zeros equally sane.
To be fair Weil is working much later on top of at least 50 years of dedicated Zero/virus research, and having an example in the pre-existing Hunter Zero to follow.  Also, as I mentioned earlier, one can still get a loose virus derivative to Omega in the form of Dark Elf; whether she's present or not Omega does share similarities to her that Copy Zero does not.  I don't think such an oddity is to be dismissed.

In light of all that I think it's completely impossible to say that Weil succeeded where Wily failed.  Wily first of all did not fail, he took time, and how much time is unclear (especially in light of the 1XX years ago label); and Weil had a mountain of research and a previous example to follow.  Don't underestimate the progression of modern tech in understanding X and Zero during Elf Wars, either; by XCM some unseen entity has outdone Light as far as Zero enhancements go.

Asking how Weil tamed the God of Destruction is like asking how he wound up with Zero's registry number.  He had the thing encapsulated for half a century, he's bound to actually learn something.

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Zero and Sigma's change in allegiance represents "circumstances can change anything". Ergo, not as planned. There may be some planned aspect that worked toward it, but it was not intended in that way, at that time, with those results.
There is a TREMENDOUS amount of personal interpretation in that statement.  Not planned, or not expected?  By who?  The context of Inafune's statement in no way whatsoever references Wily's plans or expectations.  Suppose for the sake of argument that it was intentional; wouldn't Cain and the Hunters learn a thing or two about how "circumstances can change anything"?  Wouldn't we?

"Circumstances" can mean anything.  It simply says that one event influences another, it does not specify intent, much less by who.  Change happened, that is fact.  Whether it was intentional, or how much was, cannot be derived from Inafune's statement.  It simply says that other factors caused Zero and Sigma to come out of their fight in a different condition than they had entered.  We knew that already.

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Wily has no control over this Zero, but he certainly seems eager in keeping that brain chip.
That's what timed force fields and quite possibly W-headaches are for.  For whatever degree of control you're implying that Wily is after, he isn't using the methods available to him very often.

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Inafune specifies that change to good as circumstance
cir·cum·stance
–noun
1.
a condition, detail, part, or attribute, with respect to time, place, manner,agent, etc., that accompanies, determines, or modifies a fact or event; a modifying or influencing factor: Do not judge his behavior without considering every circumstance.


Explain to me how outside, unseen manipulation does not qualify as circumstance.

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Which goes a long way to explaining how X5's awakened Zero actually sacrificed himself for X; fighting for X and fighting for Wily. With Sigma trying to kill X with the battle of destiny yet incomplete, what is best for both X and Wily coincide. Sigma himself threatened Wily's rivalry then and there.
Zero: ...No, I won't allow you to! I know everything you're trying to
do!
??: Then, be a good boy and just die!
(Zero is hit with the blast intended for X.)
Zero: ...Uh, Uwaaaaa! ...X...X... Please survive...! ...Survive! X...
Live...for...me...


It's a pretty long limb to go out on, I'd say.  Seems a bit unusually sentimental for Awakened Zero to beg for X's survival during/after the attack.  Furthermore, you're suggesting the personna was maintained but without the power to stand up to Sigma?  I'm not sure about that one.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Zan on May 09, 2010, 07:54:25 PM
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Explain to me how outside, unseen manipulation does not qualify as circumstance.

Even when added with statements such as "nothing is absolute", "created to be an evil Repliroid." "Unable to control him." Wily wanted to control an evil Zero, not create a good Zero. Inafune's statement is heavily about changing what should not have been changed; such as the virtuous Hunter Sigma becoming an evil Irregular. That meaning is lost if its Wily that deliberately changed Zero to good.

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In light of all that I think it's completely impossible to say that Weil succeeded where Wily failed.

The point is that we must give more credit for his creation of Omega. If we acknowledge Inti's scenario of something of the original Zero still remaining in the body and Vile using that to create Omega as a clear cut possibility. Vile seemingly accomplished something what troubled even Wily. To bend that uncontrollably violent god of destruction to his will is certainly an extraordinary feat.

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That's what timed force fields and quite possibly W-headaches are for.  For whatever degree of control you're implying that Wily is after, he isn't using the methods available to him very often.

It's nothing new that Wily's been gloating over Zero's victories regardless of that Zero being good or evil. But Wily's goal is still ultimately that evil Zero for the sake of the destined battle with X.  Wily may be taking his time NOW. But from the very beginning, the battle with X was not something Zero was ill-equipped for.

Remember that Hunter Zero was originally a superior to X, before they became partners of equal standing on the battlefield. For the sake of his battle with X; Zero did not originally need more power. It's only in subsequent titles that there exist some form of competition in growth between X and Zero, which Wily seemingly witnesses with great interest in the hopes that his Zero comes out on top where X failed.

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It's a pretty long limb to go out on, I'd say.  Seems a bit unusually sentimental for Awakened Zero to beg for X's survival during/after the attack.  Furthermore, you're suggesting the personna was maintained but without the power to stand up to Sigma?  I'm not sure about that one.

Then you're back to square one; a loss of the virus and its corruptive effects is witnessed by X beating up Zero.

Though, I'm not sure you can entirely say it's a different persona of Zero. The difference between Hunter Zero and Awakened Zero is something a bit more subtle, I think.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Mirby on May 09, 2010, 09:00:06 PM
I'm thinking from a gameplay standpoint in the later X games, where Zero is always a higher hunter rank (SA, I think) than X (who is B), which to me seems like it might point out the difference in strength. If this isn't important, feel free to disregard it.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Saber on May 09, 2010, 10:49:43 PM
I'm thinking from a gameplay standpoint in the later X games, where Zero is always a higher hunter rank (SA, I think) than X (who is B), which to me seems like it might point out the difference in strength. If this isn't important, feel free to disregard it.

The whole rank thing is kinda messed up in later games. I recall that X was at one point stated to be the same rank as Zero, but because of his hesitation him battle, his actual combat results have earned him only at B-rank when he could be SA. I believe that was X7. In X8, X, Zero and Axl are all Class A Hunters (VAVA is stated to have been a former Class A Hunter), while in Command Mission, they are all S class Hunters.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Mirby on May 09, 2010, 11:18:12 PM
I was talking X4 and X5 when it explicitly states it in the character select screen.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Zan on May 09, 2010, 11:36:12 PM
I've seen nothing stating X's rank in X8. As far as I'm concerned, unless otherwise said it's still B.

But X's rank means nothing to his combat skills.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Mirby on May 09, 2010, 11:47:37 PM
Yeah, in the games, it's not really a functional indicator of skill. You could just go to a place with easy enemies that spawn endlessly and kill a lot of them, and your rank goes up.

Still, I thought it might be relevant.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: OBJECTION MAN on May 10, 2010, 12:33:36 AM
I cant help but to think in XCM that X was also called an S rank hunter, along with Zero and Axl. Maybe I'm imagining things.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Zan on May 10, 2010, 12:41:13 AM
I cant help but to think in XCM that X was also called an S rank hunter, along with Zero and Axl. Maybe I'm imagining things.

Yes, in XCM, all three are S-class Hunters.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Flame on May 10, 2010, 02:59:31 AM
Quote
Then you're back to square one; a loss of the virus and its corruptive effects is witnessed by X beating up Zero.

Though, I'm not sure you can entirely say it's a different persona of Zero. The difference between Hunter Zero and Awakened Zero is something a bit more subtle, I think.
its a stretch, but considering that X has perfect Virus countermeasures... Could it be possible, that, maybe his weapons have a purifying property to them? or maybe in the same way that Zero radiates Virus, X... I dunno, has like and aura around him that negates such things?
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Align on May 10, 2010, 11:05:34 AM
I wouldn't say perfect, he does take damage from a sufficiently high dose.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Hypershell on May 11, 2010, 02:43:01 AM
Well, there IS such a thing as viral vaccines being applied to weapons.  It's been done since X3.  But in X5, it's manifested in gameplay as a Power-Up Part for X (and Zero's black armor).  On his own, X is unable to damage the virus.

The aura shpiel would be more plausible, but yeah, it's a hell of a stretch.  Such an idea does have me curious about how often "deathbed normalcy" would occur with other Hunters, but sadly gameplay mechanics do not allow us to compare that.

Even when added with statements such as "nothing is absolute", "created to be an evil Repliroid." "Unable to control him." Wily wanted to control an evil Zero, not create a good Zero. Inafune's statement is heavily about changing what should not have been changed; such as the virtuous Hunter Sigma becoming an evil Irregular. That meaning is lost if its Wily that deliberately changed Zero to good.
It's still very much your own personal interpretation.  Your "added with" bits, save for the first, are out of context to the statement you're arguing for.

4) What was the inspiration for Sigma?

KI: Some people think he might have been inspired by Sagat from Street Fighter because of his look, but that's not actually the case.  Sigma and Zero basically represent the idea that nothing is absolute. Sigma was a powerful leader of the Maverick Hunters but after Zero passed the virus to him, his allegiance changed.  Circumstances can change anything, and nothing is absolute.


Here is where "circumstances can change anything" comes from.  Wily is not part of that.  Hell, strictly speaking, Zero's allegiance isn't even part of that.  The question is about Sigma, and whether you bring Zero's allegiance up or not, his relation to Sigma going Maverick, and thus circumstances changing anything, still holds.

But even if we relate that statement to Zero, then as I said earlier, the unknown plans of a background character can easily qualify as circumstance.  You only arrive at the assumption you do by relating "change" to Wily's point of view (as opposed to the Hunters, the player, or the nameless casual observer), despite the fact that Wily's point of view means jack in relation to Sigma.

There's plenty of room for doubt.  But given how adamant you are about this, I'll refrain from attempting to refute anything further from your post that requires, from my point of view anyway, first breaking that assumption.  Marshmallow or somebody else can chime in if they want to present a different angle.

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The point is that we must give more credit for his creation of Omega. If we acknowledge Inti's scenario of something of the original Zero still remaining in the body and Vile using that to create Omega as a clear cut possibility.
The possibility, and a high one at that, is old news, as it's an argument that Marshmallow had previously pursued with me quite aggressively, citing previous interviews from Inti. (I wasn't so much arguing against it as I was against equating Omega's and Awakened Zero's personalities, but that's beside the point).

Quote
Remember that Hunter Zero was originally a superior to X, before they became partners of equal standing on the battlefield. For the sake of his battle with X; Zero did not originally need more power. It's only in subsequent titles that there exist some form of competition in growth between X and Zero, which Wily seemingly witnesses with great interest in the hopes that his Zero comes out on top where X failed.
Remember also that a good Zero turned evil could easily pick up the opportunity to stab X in the back, something that only Nightmare Zero ever attempted.  Wily is, seemingly, interested in proving superiority to X, not destroying at all costs.  To that end, is it that far a stretch to allow X to grow, or at least overcome his initial hesitation, before throwing down the gauntlet?  Sigma did the same, after all.

It all depends on how much we're banking on taking over the world versus how much we're banking on Wily's rivalry.  Given AZ's disregard for the Mavericks, I have always leaned towards the latter.

I'm thinking from a gameplay standpoint in the later X games, where Zero is always a higher hunter rank (SA, I think) than X (who is B), which to me seems like it might point out the difference in strength. If this isn't important, feel free to disregard it.
X is ranked as a B-Class Hunter due to his hesitation and general distaste for combat.  He is power-wise very well above what one expects of such a rank.  Even in MHX, Kuwanger makes note of that.

Yeah, in the games, it's not really a functional indicator of skill. You could just go to a place with easy enemies that spawn endlessly and kill a lot of them, and your rank goes up.
Actually, in X5, that would cause your rank to plummet.  Makes little sense considering X5 made a huge point of X's disliking combat and Zero's ruthless nature on missions causing Zero to be ranked higher, but that's the way it is.

Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, the only indicator of skill is who's standing when it's all over.  Ranking in the games is generally about whatever play style the creators feel like endorsing.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Mirby on May 11, 2010, 03:11:23 AM
That last part there is also part of what I was trying to convey. Honestly, I just pulled that from T&T's X7 guide from the Nov 03 issue.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: rock_volnutt2010 on May 19, 2010, 12:04:49 AM
i was wondering when i play X5 the sigma virus and the zero virus about that when i choose X he gets his life energy drain and zero his life energy doesn't how does it make it difference to it?
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Flame on May 19, 2010, 12:28:17 AM
Im not sure what your asking... But with Zero, the virus is beneficial to him. it purifies him, and thus makes him invincible upon infection.

X has the perfect Virus countermeasures, so the Virus cannot corrupt his heart like other reploids. However, since the virus in X5 are concentrated energy bodies, they still do damage to him as malignant energy.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: rock_volnutt2010 on May 19, 2010, 03:45:00 AM
oh i get it now. still the zero virus is more dangerous and agressive. did the zero virus come from the sigma virus and the colony eurasia virus combined together?
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Flame on May 19, 2010, 05:28:14 AM
Bingo!
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: TheOnly on May 19, 2010, 09:38:26 PM
I always thought the Zero virus was just Zero virus, they just changed names like example, Zero virus got into Sigma, now its the Sigma virus, the virus go into the colonly and now the colony has its own virus. Don't know that made since to you fellow members. I also want to add in that the Nightmare Zero jig was just a failed attemped to get Zero's DNA since the DNA that Gate got was only so much that he could do with it. Correct me if am wrong but that's what I understood.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Zan on May 19, 2010, 11:11:17 PM
Quote
I always thought the Zero virus was just Zero virus, they just changed names like example,

"Zero Virus" is a term coined by Alia to refer to the "new" virus "which resembles Zero". The Zero Virus was made by combining the Sigma Virus and the virus from the Eurasia colony, causing a virus reaction.

The Virus that originally came from Zero's capsule became later known as Sigma Virus. It was never known by any other name.

The virus on the colony was spread there by Sigma on Wily's proposal, for the sole purpose of awakening Zero's true self.

Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Hypershell on May 20, 2010, 12:48:22 AM
I also want to add in that the Nightmare Zero jig was just a failed attemped to get Zero's DNA since the DNA that Gate got was only so much that he could do with it.
Not at all, Gate in fact insisted that he did not need Zero's body.  Not to mention High Max at first surpassed even X.  The Nightmare is Gate's attempt at manipulating Reploids worldwide, Nightmare Zero is simply part of it. 
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: TheOnly on May 20, 2010, 02:05:51 AM
Man, this site should have its own wiki of some sort.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Thanatos-Zero on May 20, 2010, 02:13:33 AM
Man, this site should have its own wiki of some sort.

Zan is already a walking wikipedia, where ever he goes, he spreads knowledge.

About the own Wikipedia, we should better talk about this subject with Mistress Vixy.

In any other casy, there is still The Megaman Network Wiki (http://www.themmnetwork.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page).


Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Flame on May 20, 2010, 02:20:38 AM
I always thought the Zero virus was just Zero virus, they just changed names like example, Zero virus got into Sigma, now its the Sigma virus, the virus go into the colonly and now the colony has its own virus. Don't know that made since to you fellow members. I also want to add in that the Nightmare Zero jig was just a failed attemped to get Zero's DNA since the DNA that Gate got was only so much that he could do with it. Correct me if am wrong but that's what I understood.
Virus Sigma got was unnamed. I guess you cold have called it "Maverick Virus". when it became Sigma, it became Sigma Virus, and the previous virus that infected him also became known as "Sigma Virus",(retroactively). in X5, he had Dynamo spread a virus in the colony. that virus, when merged with the Sigma Virus, resulted in the Zero Virus, a virus several times more powerful than the sigma virus, and sharing Zero's energy signature i think? something like that.

after X5, and Zero supace subsided, the Zero Virus was destroyed.

Nightmare Zero is an imperfect, flawed clone of Zero made from Zero's DNA. He is also insane.

the Nightmare is a virus that manipulates reploids and possesses them. It is SO powerful however, that it has taken on a substantial physical body, and can be destroyed with conventional weaponry. Alia herself mentions that complex vaccines arent nesecary with such viruses, since they can just outright be hunted down and destroyed.

Posted on: May 19, 2010, 07:18:42 PM
Zan is already a walking wikipedia, where ever he goes, he spreads knowledge.
i find that SLIGHTLY derrogative.Zan is not freely editable by everyone. He is more an encyclopedia, or walking database.

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About the own Wikipedia, we should better talk about this subject with Mistress Vixy.
we DO have an RPM wiki yknow. though there isnt much in terms of story and such, mostkya ccounts for members and merchandise and stuff last time I checked.

Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Thanatos-Zero on May 20, 2010, 03:52:16 AM
I find that SLIGHTLY derrogative.Zan is not freely editable by everyone. He is more an encyclopedia, or walking database.

*sign* This is not a reason to take it personal. Wikipedia has helped me a lot back, when I was on highschool and even today it serves it purpose well, so I respect this site. Although Wikipedia can be edited by anyone, there is always the administration along with the scholars which keep their eyes on it, so that the information doesn't lose its substance or better its verisimilitude.

We DO have an RPM wiki yknow. though there isnt much in terms of story and such, mostkya ccounts for members and merchandise and stuff last time I checked.

Ah! That is good to know. I will check it, if you don't mind.^^
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Zan on May 20, 2010, 06:10:51 PM
Quote
Not at all, Gate in fact insisted that he did not need Zero's body.  Not to mention High Max at first surpassed even X.  The Nightmare is Gate's attempt at manipulating Reploids worldwide, Nightmare Zero is simply part of it.

I get the impression the Zero Nightmare was more important on Isoc's part of the plan; luring Zero out of hiding. Though, its incompletion is uncharacteristic of Isoc, and it was also an excuse for the Investigators to occupy the areas. I reckon Gate made it as some early attempt at utilizing Zero's DNA.

Quote
after X5, and Zero supace subsided

"0 Space", with 0 written as "Rei".

Quote
Zan is already a walking wikipedia, where ever he goes, he spreads knowledge.

Hypershell wants a share of the credit too.

Quote
Man, this site should have its own wiki of some sort.

RPM should not at all get itself involved with documenting the story, that's MMN's job. The different fansites should all have their own focus.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: TheOnly on May 20, 2010, 07:28:14 PM
That makes since now that you put it in that perspective.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Mirby on May 20, 2010, 11:34:15 PM
RPM should not at all get itself involved with documenting the story, that's MMN's job. The different fansites should all have their own focus.
The timeline topics and myriad discussions are good enough for here anyways.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Hypershell on May 21, 2010, 12:34:41 AM
Hypershell wants a share of the credit too.
With the stipulation that I, too, am not to be freely editable by everyone.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Flame on May 21, 2010, 02:06:11 AM
Lawl. indeed.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Thanatos-Zero on May 21, 2010, 02:40:46 AM
With the stipulation that I, too, am not to be freely editable by everyone.
But only by persons who know it better and are indeed right.

Here a cookie, for not to give you credit earlier.  :cookie:
And if we about to give credit, here is one for Marshmallow Man as well.  :cookie:

Sorry about that. ^^'
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Zan on June 08, 2010, 06:14:18 PM
You know, I'm not sure if this was previously discussed in the topic, but I've started thinking recently that if Zero has his immunity, and the virus was being spread all over from Zero's capsule; it means that Zero should have felt an ever so slightly boost in strength because of the virus trying to invade his systems, lending credit to Hypershell's observation of the difference in performance between X4 and Day of Sigma.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Hypershell on June 09, 2010, 12:23:03 AM
Zan, don't [acid burst] off Marshmallow Man while there are still bits of the ZC website left untranslated. >U<
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: marshmallow man on June 10, 2010, 04:07:33 PM
Actually I'm going to have to agree. Now that it's established that the virus was generated and exists separately from Zero, and that it was spreading into the surrounding area, Zero should be benefiting from said effects. Mark this down as the day Marshmallow says Hypershell was right.

I'm swamped IRL, I've got maybe a half hour to be online, and I'm still trying to digest now that some obscure Korean game wants to bridge the Classic-X gap. Seems like things change in the blink of an eye around here.

If Inti wanted to undo their implications about the sealing being after X6, they should have taken out the blurb in X's profile talking about that. I don't know why they dumped the timeline, but the other profiles they kept are the same.

I'm just skimming through these, but here goes some info: the bio for Copy X and the Guardians agree that the guardians were made from the split portions of X's soul. Copy X's goes into how they planned to put X's Cyber Elf into copy X, but emo X didn't want to and ran off to sulk somewhere, so Copy X is what they wound up with. I'm not sure if that means they intended to put all 5 parts of the soul back together and without the fifth piece they couldn't, or what. Elpis' bio confirms that Project Elpis was the plan to use the Dark Elf and Omega together to exert complete control over reploids. Dark Elf's bio says she's a creature of instinct and emotion with little reasoning ability that needs to be directed, but I think we figured that out already. Omega's mentions that his antivirus equipment is actually imperfect, and I wonder if that doesn't mean that original Zero's is as well. We already know that the virus has effected Zero's mind before, so it isn't that big a leap, but somehow I found it revealing to see it on the page. Anyway, it seems that's in opposition to X's perfect antivirus system, which is perhaps unique to him. Or him and Copy X? Speaking of whom, according to the Judges' profile, it was Copy X mk-1 who gathered them from their various jobs and established the 8 of them as the Neo Arcadia Inner Council, I think it's implied that he did it in order to help him convict innocent repliroids of irregularity to justify his actions during the energy crisis. It doesn't say in this bio, but I thought it said in other places that they didn't have human forms until Vile came along... That's all that's really new I guess, I don't think the Z4 character bios are saying anything we didn't already know.

I'm not even getting the game this week, so you guys will have to let me know. Did they include anything from the ZC site in the game's manual, or did they use the MMAC and MMXC method of copying and pasting the story from earlier manuals?
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Zan on June 10, 2010, 08:03:19 PM
Quote
and I'm still trying to digest now that some obscure Korean game wants to bridge the Classic-X gap.

Where'd you hear that it wants to bridge the classic-X gap?

Quote
Speaking of whom, according to the Judges' profile, it was Copy X mk-1 who gathered them from their various jobs and established the 8 of them as the Neo Arcadia Inner Council, I think it's implied that he did it in order to help him convict innocent repliroids of irregularity to justify his actions during the energy crisis. It doesn't say in this bio, but I thought it said in other places that they didn't have human forms until Vile came along...

They should have had human forms already, since we saw them as Judges during TK31s trial and they were given the human form to fulfill their position as judges.

However, there's the following oddity:
X's revival marked the new arrival of the mysterious enemy Vile and his 8 subordinates, the "Vile Hachishinkan (Vile 8 Judges) - Vile Numbers", who appeared in the guise of ordinary humans and were appointed to the new advisory board the "Neo Arcadia Central Council" by Vile's suggestion.

Either this means they were promoted in Z3, or Vile was manipulating things as early as Z1.

Quote
I'm not even getting the game this week, so you guys will have to let me know. Did they include anything from the ZC site in the game's manual, or did they use the MMAC and MMXC method of copying and pasting the story from earlier manuals?

The English seems to mix and match the ones from Z1~4, including even the "remote energy mine/cave" mention from ZERO1.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Mirby on June 10, 2010, 10:23:51 PM
Well, I'm playing through Zero Collection, I think that Vile was manipulating as early as Z1. With the whole Copy X in Zero 1 (I know Ciel made that one) and the fact he makes a Copy X in Z3, and the baby elves in Z2... I'm just thinking that maybe he was pulling the strings the entire time, subtly at first, and then making his grand entrance in Z3.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Hypershell on June 11, 2010, 09:06:01 PM
Mark this down as the day Marshmallow says Hypershell was right.
I didn't I already score one on discussion of the ZX Advent hidden ending, when I noted how what was at the time believed to be an awkward-ass mistranslation could be a Legends reference?

Quote
I'm swamped IRL, I've got maybe a half hour to be online, and I'm still trying to digest now that some obscure Korean game wants to bridge the Classic-X gap. Seems like things change in the blink of an eye around here.
"Bring the series together" could mean anything, doesn't have to be story-relevant.  It could be a cross-over of some sort, or it could just mean that this will be one of those Wily-cameo games like X5 and X6.  An inter-series game should not be featuring Zero in his X2 armor.

Quote
I'm just skimming through these, but here goes some info: the bio for Copy X and the Guardians agree that the guardians were made from the split portions of X's soul. Copy X's goes into how they planned to put X's Cyber Elf into copy X, but emo X didn't want to and ran off to sulk somewhere, so Copy X is what they wound up with.
I'm curious to know the literal translation of that, when you have the time.  I wonder, would X perceive his resurrection as threatening Dark Elf's seal?

Posted on: June 10, 2010, 07:49:03 PM
I'm not even getting the game this week, so you guys will have to let me know. Did they include anything from the ZC site in the game's manual, or did they use the MMAC and MMXC method of copying and pasting the story from earlier manuals?
I completely forgot where I left my stack of GBA manuals, but I believe it was a copy/paste.  I can tell you that the instruction prologues don't contain anything from the ZC website, and that the U.S. ZC manual is impossible to reconcile with the Japanese ZC website.  Consider the following:

-Z1's prologue opens with "The Reploid War, sparked by the Sigma Virus that drove Reploids berserk, lasted for centuries."
-Characters page states that Weil was "Expelled from Neo Arcadia 100 years ago..."
-ZC website info previously taken down listed Zero's creation as "1XX years ago."

Zero was created before the Sigma Virus drove Reploids berserk, therefore all three cannot be true (unknown timeframe greater than one century + 100 years > 1XX years).
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Zan on June 11, 2010, 09:19:46 PM
Hypershell, the ZC manual is just the old GBA manuals mixed together. Compare with:
http://www.themmnetwork.com/wiki/images/6/6c/Mmz1manual.txt
http://www.themmnetwork.com/wiki/images/3/3d/Mmz2manual.txt
http://www.themmnetwork.com/wiki/images/1/1d/MMZ3Manual.txt

The first manual, which you quoted is infamous for its differences to the Japanese manual:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/gba/551912-mega-man-zero/faqs/17227

Most notable differences being the length of the Maverick Wars and the location of ZERO's seal, both of which carried over into the ZERO Collection.
Title: Re: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus
Post by: Hypershell on June 11, 2010, 10:14:46 PM
As I said in my first sentence of that response, I just didn't have the .txt links to verify.