X7-X8 never happend?

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Offline Hypershell

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Reply #125 on: April 16, 2010, 10:44:36 PM
I think this part is very important, as it is the one aspect that only we as the player saw. Nobody else knows the source for Gate's irregularity.
For that matter we as players would not know that it wasn't an isolated incident if not for Inti telling us, twice.  Gate's infection is in the aftermath of a tremendous viral assault on Zero.  That Zero's infection is contagious following that is no small stretch; that it is so on a regular basis is not something that even we as players would have established without MMZOCW and the Zero Collection website.

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Offline Zan

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Reply #126 on: April 16, 2010, 11:01:54 PM
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For that matter we as players would not know that it wasn't an isolated incident if not for Inti telling us, twice.  Gate's infection is in the aftermath of a tremendous viral assault on Zero.  That Zero's infection is contagious following that is no small stretch; that it is so on a regular basis is not something that even we as players would have established without MMZOCW and the Zero Collection website.

That's true in a way, but there's something to be said for "a normal virus dies with its host", which didn't happen in Zero's case.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #127 on: April 16, 2010, 11:08:51 PM
That's a pretty loose connection given that the Hunters already know that Zero doesn't show standard viral reactions during Eurasia.  Even if that were not the case, it could easily be answered by digging into the definition of a host.  A "piece" of the host Reploid that survived the host's "death", intact enough that it preserves said host's DNA data, could very well work as a viral culture of sorts.  Remember, we're only talking about a few weeks' survival.

The Sigma Virus can utilize a great deal of technology; it is not limited solely to conscious Reploids.  Magna Centipede's computer core, not to mention Eurasia itself, stand as testament to that fact.  So does Zero's capsule in light of Inti's new timeline.

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Offline marshmallow man

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Reply #128 on: April 19, 2010, 05:44:23 PM
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Isoc and Gate spoke in very different capacities.  Gate admitted that he created the Nightmare based on his research on Zero.  Isoc claimed that the Nightmare actually was Zero, as in, Zero was directly responsible.  You're blending two very different stories together and claiming them to lead to a single end whereas in fact the two are not even compatible, and thus your point could not possibly be more invalid.  Gate's word, and Gate's alone, holds.  Isoc's does not.  The mere fact that Zero exists separate from the Nightmare invalidates Isoc's announcement.

Despite you saying this point is invalid, it sounds like you actually agree with the major point that Zero as the source of the Nightmare was proven... just not by Isoc. You wish to quibble? Lets. Isoc claimed in his announcement that a ghost of Zero was the source of the Nightmare phenomenon. Before anyone knew that the Zero Nightmare was a fake, the insinuation is that this apparition is the Zero who disappeared weeks ago and is now running rampant spreading this menace. Ergo, the world at large is led to believe that Zero is the source of the Nightmare, effecting public opinion of him quite adversely. In the scene where Zero does come back, even he knows that toy has been smearing his reputation, and he's been holed off who knows where. Regaining the populace's faith in Zero's innocence is an uphill battle for the Hunters and not something easily swept under the table due to the very public character attack from his accusers. The whole world's doubts over Zero don't necessarily evaporate immediately after Zero Nightmare is defeated (how and when do the Hunters relay this news of clearing Zero's name to the world?). Even given that Zero and the Zero Nightmare are two separate (though intricately linked) entities, the initial accusation that Zero is the source of the virus is still confirmed, though not in quite the same manner Isoc insinuated.  I think the tarnished reputation and sense of confused hysteria surrounding the incident may add an important atmosphere of distrust in that compounds upon the actual truth behind the matter--that the Nightmare really did come from Zero's DNA. Negative public opinion might even contribute to the decision made by the humans that he should be sealed. That's why I mentioned it as being a relevant step.

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Zero himself knew he was gaining power in response to the Sigma Virus alone.  The Hunters did not; Lifesaver was suspicious of Zero's reaction to antiviruses.

Maybe you missed that party, but as I've discussed at Zan's behest before, the MMX5 manual differs from the Rockman X5 manual, in saying that Lifesaver becomes concerned over Zero's virus reaction, not antivirus one. The Hunters recognized that Zero was infected over the course of the game, and the conversation with Signas was over how Zero was reacting to the virus itself. They know he is carrying the sigma virus, and getting stronger from it. But they do not understand all which that implicates, and the immediate fate of the world is at that time more important to Signas than figuring out what exactly can be learned from Zero's unique virus situation.

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That Zero can be exploited is old news; it's been happening since X2.  What is key to Zero's seal is when the leap is made from the enemy being able to use him, which the Hunters already know, to Zero's mere presence constituting a threat, which they do not.

The only way the Hunters see him used in X2 is either as a bargaining chip to entice X to battle the X-Hunters, or as an enemy who was manipulated by some manner of brainwashing but defeated and returned to normal (the latter apparently being the "didn't happen" scenario).  It doesn't seem that anyone had an inkling of Zero being the source of any virus at that point.

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I'll also put forward this notion: To split the timeline at X6 requires X6 itself to present the split.  It only works if X6 itself suggests it, and the "completed Zero ending" makes no explanation as to why Zero is being sealed.  No additional information is gained while playing as Zero that does not come forward while playing as X.  Thus we have a problem: While it is perfectly plausible for a change in Zero's judgment to bring about an early seal, that is not in the least what Inti told us.  By telling us that it became known that Zero is inadvertently spreading the virus, Zero's seal cannot take place in the middle of the X-series unless that has come to light.  At no point in X6 was that so.

Some things X6 expressed don't seem to be relevant anymore. At the time, the Zero sealing ending seemed best fitted to matching with X's "bad" ending, where Zero entrusts the world to X while he sets off to right something he feels he must do. Of course, the paths leading to those two endings didn't mesh. But just analyzing the Zero X6 ending by itself gives the impression that Zero's sealing is of his own choosing and entirely voluntary, even to the point where the scientist tries to talk him out of it because whatever it is shouldn't be a problem in his opinion. It seemed at the time that he simply wanted the virus data removed from his body, not so much to be a guinnea pig for Sigma Virus research. We're told his coma would last for 102 years. Following ZC's site, it sounds like Zero's decision could have been made for him, the emphasis is put on studying him over simply removing what was troubling him, and the 102 years thing has been questionable since MZOCW revealed the double sealing in the first place. These general discrepancies exist among the ending itself and what the Zero series backstory portrays as having happened. I believe these all are likely the result of the changing nature the Z series story development took between Z1 and Z2~ZX. When X6 came out, all of this was completely unforseen. The RPM book left this open and unanswered, perhaps simply because they didn't know how things would pan out yet themselves--the directions that both X7 and Z2 would take were still up in the air.

Zero actively spreading the virus might be one of those incongruities that changes/overwrites our past understanding of events. We may not have actually seen them run the tests that showed Zero's capacity to spread the virus in X6, but Cap/Inti still may have decided such a realization occurred in the Nightmare Incident's aftermath. We're already being told that the X6 seal didn't happen the exact same way we saw it happen. We don't have to wait for further explanation in the X series if this is that explanation.

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By refusing to name MMZ's century (something I have brought up repeatedly and you have been either unwilling or unable to explain), Inti has still maintained enough leeway that the X-series can do whatever it wants without dropping any games.

They apparently shied away from naming MMZ's century in press materials from the get-go, although Higurashi seemed to think he knew when. Maybe they didn't name it because it's always been their policy not to. Maybe they didn't because of the potential span with when the pre-X1 series events begin and when and for how long Zero's X6-ending sealing takes place (if longer than the 50 years of testing they presented in MZOCW) with adding in the Elf Wars and the post-Elf Wars seal, things could be pushed in their extremes to 23XX. Or, they could be leaving room to include X series games. Even though they are vague with the century, the 1XX years ago usage itself makes it difficult indeed to include Command Mission at all without great delay of the series' beginnings and very minimal estimates for all Zero's sealings, as we all quickly realized. For that purpose it would have been much better to use a timeline like the one in MZOCW where no relative dates are given. Just events in an ordered manner.

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Even if they were to split, XCM limits the main X-series to 21XX anyway, not that a date change would accomplish much.  And killing the heroes?  Nobody in their right mind does that with a playable character, lest we get the suspiciously similar replacement for the fans to [sonic slicer] about.  If Capcom were honestly open to that they would have had X take the series solo at X6, but they know better.

For character death, I was considering a grand finale option. Like how they almost wrapped things up in X5, except here their deaths would have weight and meaning because Capcom/Inafune wouldn't be planning thier resurrections before the blood is even dry. Perhaps something even more epic than Ragnarok (or for X, I don't think it would be too hard to find something more appeasing than  Elpizo stabbing him). They could also just keep going and extending past even Command Mission's 22XX with no limit in sight. It all amounts to a chance for them to do things differently this time around.

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That wasn't my point, though. With a split timeline, the ZERO-series backstory and the current storyline arc in the X-series would occur in the same span of time. In that span of time, the major elements which are reused from X8/XCM to ZXA, from ZERO to X8/XCM, very much acknowledge a similar history, even if there are key differences. We can never see X7~XCM as wholly mutually exclusive from ZERO/ZX.

Maybe I still don't get what you're saying, but if we're ever (more explicitly) told that the branching timeline system is what they have in mind, then mutually exclusive is exactly how we should see those games. Do you mean that they're like X's good ending vs X's bad ending in X5, where either road can be taken, and we assume that knowledge we learn in one (like X's dream of Elysium) still applies to the other, even if not expressed? More or less negating the possibility that the Zero series backstory/accounts of events differs at all from the earlier X series accounts, like I suggested the possibility of earlier? If that's what you're saying, it does make sense, only we'd still be left with the apparent inconsistencies that new materials have brought with them. It's all really just a question of what Capcom's stance is about it all.



Offline Zan

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Reply #129 on: April 20, 2010, 12:15:52 AM
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Negative public opinion might even contribute to the decision made by the humans that he should be sealed. That's why I mentioned it as being a relevant step.

Even if the humans consider Zero a liability, it can not be forgotten that Zero is one of their best irregular hunters, who has yet to show any irregularities of himself. There's a huge risk taken with sealing Zero away, which was expressed by the scientist. We have to consider that there can be a considerable amount of doubt causing political debate, which would demand Zero's own approval of the situation he is placed in. All of this can delay the time of sealing for further X-series titles.

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Do you mean that they're like X's good ending vs X's bad ending in X5, where either road can be taken, and we assume that knowledge we learn in one (like X's dream of Elysium) still applies to the other, even if not expressed? More or less negating the possibility that the Zero series backstory/accounts of events differs at all from the earlier X series accounts, like I suggested the possibility of earlier?

In one way, this is exactly what I'm saying.

But what I was adding to that was something like ZX's Vent and Aile scenario leading toward ZXA's Ashe and Grey scenario; even though another path was taken by Girouette's choice, the future still follows a similar course aside from certain deviations. Prairie for example would have never gotten a new dress in the Ashe future, but that doesn't change the way the battle with Model V continues.

Between X and the ZERO-series, the choice of Zero being sealed or not, the deviations would certainly be quite a bit heavier; more things change than they are the same. But it would still mean that in both cases, Orbital Elevators and Copy Chips are inevitably both invented, albeit not necessarily in the same context in both timelines; validating ZXA's references to the concepts from XCM.



Offline Mirby

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Reply #130 on: April 20, 2010, 12:34:10 AM
So, basically, even though X7, X8, and XCM weren't mentioned explicitly, the ideas and technology within those would still have happened regardless if ZXA and stuff were to have any valid continuity to past games?

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Offline Sky

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Reply #131 on: April 20, 2010, 04:09:15 AM
X6 never happened

squemp


Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #132 on: April 20, 2010, 04:17:48 AM
X1 never happened

X is still in that capsule, never to awaken



until Christmas



Offline Flame

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Reply #133 on: April 20, 2010, 05:42:50 AM
X1 never happened

X is still in that capsule, never to awaken



until Christmas

all of it was just X's dream, while still sealed up. When he wakes up, he will be in a utopia, and he will laugh off his silly dream.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Hypershell

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Reply #134 on: May 31, 2010, 08:35:57 PM
Ignoring the debate which I have not felt the urge to continue (Marshmallow Man has an amazing ability to suck away my strength; three new Wii games in my library aren't helping), I thought I'd point out some oddities with the updated Zero Collection website.

In Character Profiles, now in Cerveau's room, those characters who appeared in both versions of the site (Zero, Ciel, X, etc.) appear to be the same.  However, we lost Hirondelle, Cyber-Elves, and Neo Arcadia, and gained two pages, one for Copy X and one for the Big Four.  Quick glance shows mentions of DNA and the number 5 in Copy X's page, so they could be going into the soul-split there and how it impacted him (Zan hereby has my permission to beat Marshmallow with a fish for translations).  In addition, there's a metric ton of Z2-Z4 character pages, weapon pages, and Cyber-Elf pages (individual pages for Nurse, Animal, and Hacker elves, nothing that matches the original Cyber-Elf page).

I see no trace of the previous and very controversial "Zero 0" backstory timeline.  Note that Alouette's room is still locked so it could be in there, but I'd think it odd to seal away something that was previously the meat of the site.

EDITS: Remembering that this is an X-series thread, though obviously deeply rooted in Zero Collection, I'll be taking my non-story-relevant comments elsewhere.

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Offline Flame

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Reply #135 on: May 31, 2010, 08:59:15 PM
perhaps they saw what a mess the fanbase was making, eager to claim their least favorites as "not canon"?

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Saber

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Reply #136 on: June 01, 2010, 08:11:52 PM
perhaps they saw what a mess the fanbase was making, eager to claim their least favorites as "not canon"?

What was once on the internet can never be undone.





Offline Jetfire

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Reply #137 on: June 08, 2010, 03:03:10 AM
Do we have any way to translate the new profiles?

How do you convert Flash sites to highlightable text?



Offline Ramzal

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Reply #138 on: August 14, 2010, 10:43:26 PM
At the end of the day, the only real defense as to why X6-X8 does not exist is because Inafune didn't know/want X6 to be developed when he finished X5. This constantly happens in the video game industry. Get over it. The games were developed and have stories. [Logical arguement] If they were not developed, then them not existing would be true. Beside that, debating it is quite useless. If you debate it, it all comes down to personal prefernce, but the fact of the matter is that the games were made, continue on the story. If you do not like anything that happened in X6-8 than ignore it and move on. If you do like the events at all, or even the characters, it happened. [/logical arguement]



Offline Zan

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Reply #139 on: August 15, 2010, 12:30:52 AM
Ramzal: X6 is not in question anymore. It's been outright confirmed. The question is instead in regards to X7, X8 and XCM occurring prior to the ZERO-series.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #140 on: August 15, 2010, 03:13:20 AM
Also: Inafune did not "finish" the X-series with X5; rather he abandoned the series and told somebody else to finish it.  By his own words:

"I had very little to do with 'X5.'  I just told the team to 'finish off the series with this title,' and left it at that."
~MMXOCW, page 48

This business of "non-Inafune" games having any less weight than X5 is complete rubbish.  And frankly Inafune's idea of "finality" makes me wonder if he's ever actually played X5.

Z1 in its finished state fits considerably better with X6 than X5, with Zero being deliberately sealed, hooked up to machinery, and, you know, having legs.  Obviously this was before Elf Wars and the double-seal, which makes the whole thing moot in the current timeline, but speaking in retrospect of "Z1 then" rather than "Z1 now", a direct link from X5 doesn't work.

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