Super Smash Bros. Thread

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Offline Police Girl

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Reply #4350 on: April 12, 2014, 06:06:37 AM
Also, Mega Man can copy weapons from robots he has defeated but not killed in Powered Up.
That's just that game and that's basically only that way because of the ability to recruit new characters. Otherwise it'd be the same as all the main series games (Which Powered up does not count in because of its status as the only game in an aborted remake series of the classic games.)

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Serious response: Ridley is key to Samus's backstory.  He is the one who orphaned her before she was adopted by the Chozo.  However the Metroid games are so light on storytelling that they barely bother to mention it.

And his relevance really just ends there until Super Metroid. Other than that he's a recurring boss. That's it. He's not THE antagonist because Metroid doesn't have a single antagonist that overarches the entire series. Any other villain in Smash is. Ganondorf is, Bowser is, and what do you know, they're the only antagonists in Smash. Wolf's more of a Rival but if you want to argue that go right the [tornado fang] ahead.



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Reply #4351 on: April 12, 2014, 09:08:52 AM
So why is Samus wearing Rocket heels such a big deal now. It's reminding me of how people reacted to ZS Samus' appearance in Other M.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


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Reply #4352 on: April 12, 2014, 10:08:44 AM
The rocket boots are [tornado fang]ing awesome and people only dislike them because "baww why is she wearing high heels those aren't very battle friendly"

The heels on the Other M design were stupid because they served no purpose but here they're something that actively improves her fighting. They remind me of Chell's boots from Portal 2 that allowed her to land safely regardless of fall distance and such.



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Reply #4353 on: April 12, 2014, 01:05:17 PM
I got into an argument with someone about how the heels were apparently put in purely as fanservice because that's all heels are ever used for and if they're not used for that then they still are and it hurt my head.

Yeah I thought of Chell's boots too.

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Reply #4354 on: April 12, 2014, 05:11:08 PM
Rockets make everything cooler.  But some people just hate heels regardless.  They exist solely for appearance so that we can ignore how uncomfortable and pointless they really are, even in the real world, so I don't really pay much attention to their practicality in games.

That's just that game and that's basically only that way because of the ability to recruit new characters. Otherwise it'd be the same as all the main series games (Which Powered up does not count in because of its status as the only game in an aborted remake series of the classic games.)
It could be just as easily argued that destroying a robot is merely for the sake of gameplay simplicity, though.  In ZX, for example, Model A obtains data through victory, whether the opponent is killed or not.

The finer points of how Classic Mega Man absorbs weapons are something that each spinoff tackles individually (IE, Archie's comic follows the old RS route).

...I'd also point that the nature of Smash Bros. would have allowed absorption upon defeat as well, since a single-stock-one-on-one match is pretty rare.

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And his relevance really just ends there until Super Metroid. Other than that he's a recurring boss. That's it. He's not THE antagonist because Metroid doesn't have a single antagonist that overarches the entire series. Any other villain in Smash is. Ganondorf is, Bowser is, and what do you know, they're the only antagonists in Smash. Wolf's more of a Rival but if you want to argue that go right the [tornado fang] ahead.
Yes, his relevance only ranges from fundamentally altering the main protagonist's entire life up prior to any game, up until the most widely acclaimed 2D entry in the series (and the only two chronologically later games, both of which he still appears in, are not well received).  That's not compelling at all.

Wolf is...not worth it.  I will say, though, an "antagonist" can take many forms outside of the traditional villain, and Smash has more than a few other antagonists (Wario, Dedede, Meta Knight, Mewtwo).

I'll also say this: Ganondorf is thematically the "most" overarching villain in the Zelda series, but even he has sat out a story arc or two.  As for Bowser, there IS no overarching story to the Mario games.  Bowser is "merely" recurring, what justifies him is that by the nature of his series, that's as significant as he needs to be.  And he is not above stepping outside of the traditional villain roles if a threat outside of himself should rear its head.

Consider then, that the Metroid series, while certainly darker and more serious, isn't really much better than Mario at telling a story.  And when it does try to, Ridley is near always part of it.  He is the reason Samus was raised by the Chozo, which in turn made her what she is (super-athlete, Galactic Savior, etc.).  More importantly, he is also the mainstay of the Space Pirate forces, who pretty much ARE the main antagonists of the series in the sense that basically everything that happened outside of Fusion either involves or was set in motion by them.

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Offline Soultrigger

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Reply #4355 on: April 13, 2014, 02:58:18 AM
Consider then, that the Metroid series, while certainly darker and more serious, isn't really much better than Mario at telling a story.  And when it does try to, Ridley is near always part of it.  He is the reason Samus was raised by the Chozo, which in turn made her what she is (super-athlete, Galactic Savior, etc.).  More importantly, he is also the mainstay of the Space Pirate forces, who pretty much ARE the main antagonists of the series in the sense that basically everything that happened outside of Fusion either involves or was set in motion by them.
Ridley is important in Samus's backstory.

But I'm going to give a opposing opinion and say that Samus's backstory isn't really <i>that</i> important in terms of the Metroid games. Sure, Fusion, Zero Mission, and (ugh) Other M made it a core part of their plot, but of those 3, Fusion was the only one that had a strong emphasis on story while actually delivering a good one (ZM was minimalistic, OM was terrible). That being said, Fusion didn't even explore her Chozo backstory, only her time spent serving under Adam in the GF.

Which of course means that Ridley's importance was only "shown" in ZM and OM, the first of which didn't even show it but merely relies on the fact that it happened, the latter only through a butchering character regression.

So if, outside the Japan-only manga, only 1 game actually delved into Ridley's relevance, and also in the worst way possible...is it really fair to say that Ridley is <i>that</i> important plotwise? Because without that aspect, Clefant's pretty much right: Ridley is just kinda there the entire series, if you took him out the games wouldn't really be that much different.



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Reply #4356 on: April 13, 2014, 05:53:56 AM
First of all, what you're saying is that Ridley is not important plotwise to games that don't make it a point to emphasize their plot.  By that logic ANY game character is insignificant.  Second, even without his personal history with Samus, Ridley is also the commander of the Space Pirates, which in itself makes him a big deal.

The main in-game acknowledgement of Ridley's significance to Samus's backstory is actually Metroid Fusion (J), as one of its ending images is a flashback to K-2L.
http://www.metroid-database.com/m4/mfend5njp.png
In the US, that image is only accessible by linking Fusion with Zero Mission, though the point is also referenced in Brawl's Ridley trophy.

Trying to diminish Ridley's status by dismissing Other M is a self-defeating argument: Other M's main failure in presenting that battle IS the fact that it failed to re-emphasize how significant Ridley is.  The scene is considered offensive only when the audience dismisses Ridley as "just another boss."  He isn't.  The scene is written under a premise that was established in 2003, but was not properly brought to the surface and thus largely ignored by the audience.  People were just confused and pissed that they couldn't continue ignoring it.



In an effort to not COMPLETELY hijack the thread with Ridley:

I'm looking forward to rocking Zero Suit Samus without having to worry about Final Smashes disrupting my form choice.  Honestly I was a lot better with her than with regular Samus anyway; her speed coupled with the range of her whip more than made up for any lack of firepower.

Which begs the question...what is ZSS's Final Smash going to be this time?  I'm not sure if the whole random-energy-aura thing will work as well if she isn't equipping her suit.  Guess we'll find out in due time...

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Offline Satoryu

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Reply #4357 on: April 13, 2014, 09:15:39 PM
It might be a stretch, but how about it acting more like an actual Crystal Flash and healing her a bit? It would have to be interruptable by consequence though. If not that then maybe calling in a air strike from her ship? Or they'll probably create something entirely new.


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Offline Soultrigger

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Reply #4358 on: April 14, 2014, 12:46:35 AM
First of all, what you're saying is that Ridley is not important plotwise to games that don't make it a point to emphasize their plot.  By that logic ANY game character is insignificant.
The Metroids are important the entire series. They are the backbone of the non-Prime stories. Because of how much a threat they pose, your entire objective every game revolves around them in some way, excluding Fusion. Mother Brain, the super AI that became self-aware and now controls the Metroid, is the dominant threat in Metroid 1, 3, and ZM.
In Fusion, the X is the emphasis of the story. Everything revolves around their existence and abilities.

Prime 1 and 3 actually place more importance on the Space Pirates and Ridley. However, they are easily the "side attraction". Prime 1 mainly delved into Chozo remains and the Impact Crater which the Space Pirates were trying to mine. Prime 3 mainly delved into Phazon and Dark Samus.

So really, Ridley's importance is just inflated by the fact that he's recurring. The Space Pirates did just fine without him in Prime 2.

Second, even without his personal history with Samus, Ridley is also the commander of the Space Pirates, which in itself makes him a big deal.
Notice however, that Ridley is never THE threat, just A threat. In the games where he's actually "relevant" to the plot as a commander and not just some clone, he's superseded by Mother Brain or Metroid Prime.

The main in-game acknowledgement of Ridley's significance to Samus's backstory is actually Metroid Fusion (J), as one of its ending images is a flashback to K-2L.
http://www.metroid-database.com/m4/mfend5njp.png
In the US, that image is only accessible by linking Fusion with Zero Mission, though the point is also referenced in Brawl's Ridley trophy.
Pointing to some obscure easter egg isn't helping your argument (actually it's proving my point). If Ridley being in Samus's backstory wasn't made important within the plots of the games (barring Other M, which I'll get into), then it <i>wasn't important</i>.

If in Maverick Hunter X, we found out Chill Penguin was X's older brother, does that make Chill Penguin important in Mega Man X? No.
Likewise, just because we now know Ridley is the killer of Samus's parents, that doesn't suddenly mean that way back in Metroid 1 and Super Metroid, when we fought Ridley, we "remembered" what happened making it a personal battle for vengeance. He was just a boss obstructing our path to the <i>actual final boss</i>.
If in the next Metroid game we found out Kraid was responsible for the genocide of the Chozo, just because he's made retrospectively important doesn't mean he was important back then.

Trying to diminish Ridley's status by dismissing Other M is a self-defeating argument: Other M's main failure in presenting that battle IS the fact that it failed to re-emphasize how significant Ridley is.  The scene is considered offensive only when the audience dismisses Ridley as "just another boss."  He isn't.  The scene is written under a premise that was established in 2003, but was not properly brought to the surface and thus largely ignored by the audience.  People were just confused and pissed that they couldn't continue ignoring it.
No, the scene is considered offensive because it's <b>just plain bad writing</b>. Samus has already fought with Ridley before several times, even excluding the Prime trilogy. There is <b>no reason</b> she should be having a breakdown or PTSD. Even if you ignore continuity, Samus having a breakdown <b>serves no purpose in the story other than to weaken her as a character</b>.



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Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #4359 on: April 14, 2014, 06:10:02 AM
So I repped Zelda in the Brawl tourney at PAX East. Got my ass WHOOPED by Falco.

Haha, to be fair, I couldn't have taken this guy even with TOON LINK. He was a beast. Made it to the final four, I believe.



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Reply #4360 on: April 14, 2014, 06:12:12 AM
So I repped Zelda in the Brawl tourney at PAX East. Got my ass WHOOPED by Falco.

Haha, to be fair, I couldn't have taken this guy even with TOON LINK. He was a beast. Made it to the final four, I believe.
Still the Final 4 is impressive.

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Reply #4361 on: April 14, 2014, 06:15:29 AM
No no, HE made it to the Final Four.

I got knocked out in the first round!  8D



Offline Satoryu

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Reply #4362 on: April 14, 2014, 11:32:27 AM
I am NOT getting into Other M plot stuff. And I suggest everyone else drop it. We all know neither side will budge, and the argument itself has already been beaten into the dust since the game came out 3 and a half years ago. If you really want to do this back and forth again, at least don't do it here. Keep it to Smash related stuff, of which "the Ridley Scene" is not.

Pointing to some obscure easter egg isn't helping your argument (actually it's proving my point). If Ridley being in Samus's backstory wasn't made important within the plots of the games (barring Other M, which I'll get into), then it <i>wasn't important</i>.

Are you saying only the games can be legit sources of information? Do the officially licensed manga and Nintendo Power comic just not count? Even when events that took place in those are called back to within the games and other related media?

And I'm not just talking about the ending pictures in Fusion. Old Bird is one of the Chozo that raised Samus. He debuted in the Nintendo Power Comic. He was a major character in the official manga, panels of which were repurposed for those extra ending pictures in the Japanese release of Fusion. And, and this is the important one if my questions before yield yesses, you see Old Bird in a flashback in Zero Mission. Samus' backstory with Ridley on K-2L also was first shown in the Nintendo Power comic. And it has been referred to in other games as well, such as Smash Bros. trophies and the manual for Metroid Prime.

But more importantly than all that. You are saying that a big pterodactyl-like creature and a bunch of marauding aliens under his command decimating a space colony and orphaning a very young Samus is in no way a heavy contribution to the Metroid mythos. That sounds like some pretty heavy [parasitic bomb] to me, man. Doesn't seem like the kinda thing you can just shrug off. If that event never happened, none of the games would have taken place. We have Ridley to thank that we can play these games ironically enough.

I don't know how else to show Ridley's significance and therefore eligibility to be a playable character in Smash Bros. I've accepted the fact that he's not gonna be playable in this one cause there's too much evidence against it. But the point of all this is to show that his inclusion is possible, appropriate, and relevant. Ignoring all this evidence is just ignorant, man.


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Offline Sakura Leic

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Reply #4363 on: April 14, 2014, 04:21:19 PM
No no, HE made it to the Final Four.

I got knocked out in the first round!  8D
Yeah I was confused there.

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Reply #4364 on: April 14, 2014, 05:20:54 PM
Honestly, I probably did better in the original Super Smash Bros tourney they had there. Man, the game has changed so much since then.



Offline Sakura Leic

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Reply #4365 on: April 14, 2014, 05:22:17 PM
Honestly, I probably did better in the original Super Smash Bros tourney they had there. Man, the game has changed so much since then.
Yeah I can imagine, if I remeber corectly I think I even saw the last tier list change happen in November of last year of all things, at least it'll be more fresh when the new Smash comes out. 

EDIT:Scratch that it was April of last year.

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Reply #4366 on: April 14, 2014, 09:59:59 PM



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Reply #4367 on: April 14, 2014, 11:46:34 PM

OH [parasitic bomb] IM USING LINK AND I ACCIDENTALLY FINAL SMASHED A CUCCO OH GOD HELP
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Reply #4368 on: April 15, 2014, 12:49:04 AM
So kinda like a Fox Illusion you can queue up? I can get behind that.

... I still want Baby Metroid now.



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Reply #4369 on: April 15, 2014, 03:00:37 PM
MELEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

I love Melee's music as much as the next fan but I wish the classic Smash got more love, it has the best Metal Mario theme without a doubt.  :D



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Reply #4370 on: April 15, 2014, 03:53:54 PM
Hopefully they bring it back for the new game. I also love the music that plays after the victory theme, after the match is over.



Offline Sakura Leic

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Reply #4371 on: April 15, 2014, 09:14:50 PM
So people are not only are people complaning about Zero Suit Samus' jet heels but they're aparently complaining about her breasts being bigger.....people prefer the really squished up and totally pressed breasts with no [tornado fang]ing support and just hanging there? 

I mean I understand that the Zero suit style reminds people of Other M and the high heels seem weird to some people, but I really don't don't understand the whole sexualizing Samus thing since they've done that since the first Metroid Game and she's always been a badass. 

Plus the first thing we see in the Story Mode of Brawl when Samus shows up is her sexy legs and sexy ass. Yes she's eye candy but she gets [parasitic bomb] done unlike Mario, Link, Pit, Yoshi and Kirby who barely did anything besides running like badasses.  Peach and Zelda did more relevant and constructive things than those guys, not only did they escape but they got a Mr. Game and Watch to go over to their side, that's pretty big. 

Anyway I think I said what I wanted to say and I wanted to know what you guys think.

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Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #4372 on: April 15, 2014, 09:52:38 PM
She's going into battle against a sorceress, quite a few sword users, an angel, a couple plumbers, two remorseless eating creatures, monsters, a speedy blue hedgehog, several big creatures that breathe fire, a multi-powered robot, a boxer, a smug princess, and many more things.

If jet heels help her fight them, I'm pretty sure she'd choose to wear them.



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Reply #4373 on: April 15, 2014, 09:54:38 PM
Exactly, if a Bounty Hunter or Soldier can assess the target they will do anything so that they will have some sort of advantage.

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Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #4374 on: April 15, 2014, 10:01:31 PM
My response to the "It's not comfortable to fight in heels" is "SHE TURNS INTO A GODDAMN BALL! A. LITERAL. BALL."

Look, there's no denying that female characters do get oversexualized. I mean, take Taki from Soul Calibur 5...



I'm no fashion expert, but I'm pretty sure clothes do not work that way. But yeah, I can understand the issue with giving a girl fighter heels. In this case though, I believe it's being blown out of proportion.