Topic: Youtube Debate MM2 or MM3 (Timeline Updated)

[Gauntlet101010]

Well without Rush Marine, I don't see why Jet wouldn't work in water. 

Still, it's good to know that MM3 NES is the only game where Jet can be summoned in the water.  Since it's fixed in WW, that's a true bug.

[Da Dood]

You don't take damage from using Top Spin as long as you use it against enemies that are actually weak to it (there are 19, all OHKOs). Sadly this is not the case with the Robot Masters.

Honestly, the rushed pieces that people complain about MM3 only make the game more appealing to me. The overpowered Rush Jet, fuel conservation, being able to "choose" Rush Marine and Jet before intended, P2 commands. It's the equivalent of sequence-breaking in most Metroid games, in that it's technically a fault in the game, but one that makes it deeper and more enjoyable.

[Bag of Magic Food]

Well without Rush Marine, I don't see why Jet wouldn't work in water. 

Still, it's good to know that MM3 NES is the only game where Jet can be summoned in the water.  Since it's fixed in WW, that's a true bug.

Um, I don't think it was fixed in The Wily Wars.  Are you sure you remember correctly?  And you can summon Rush Jet in water in all those other games I mentioned: 5, 6, and 7, and World 3, 4, and 5.  It was only NES 4 that had that weird halfway restriction where Rush Jet could travel into water but couldn't start in it.

You don't take damage from using Top Spin as long as you use it against enemies that are actually weak to it (there are 19, all OHKOs). Sadly this is not the case with the Robot Masters.

I noticed a couple of times that I managed to hit HardMan with Top Spin but bounced away uninjured.  That's why I wonder if Top Spin was supposed to always make RockMan bounce off safely whether or not it worked on the enemy, but the programmers ran out of time to fix it so he wouldn't take damage first.

[Gauntlet101010]

I'm very certain you can't call Rush Jet int he water int he Wily Wars .... but not 100% certain, no.

Games with Rush Marine don't count in this, naturally.  Hm.  I'll check the rest myself, just to be sure.  But ... later.  It's kinda besides the point.  If WW and most other games didn't fix i, then Capcom mighta just left it in due to .... sheer sloppiness, I guess.

Edit: good call on Top Spin.  Maybe they did.  But it might make usage in stages trickier, since a bounce might land you in a pit.

[Bag of Magic Food]

Yeah, I had to be careful about using it on the Parachus in ShadowMan's stage because of that.

[Gauntlet101010]

I just might make a note of this at some point.  So let's see what we got.  If MM3 were completed the way Inafune may have wanted we might have gotten:

Likely (followed up on in other games)
- a More MM4-ish Rush Jet
- A "turning" sprite for Mag Missiles (implemented in WW, sprite exists in MM3)
- Rush Marine opening it's mouth to shoot (almost implemented in MM3, implemented in MM4)
- Rush Marine automatically disappearing when you jump out of the water and land on land (in WW).
- Controller-2, Rush tricks, and "zombie MM" taken out of the game.
- A better Spark Shock (where you can freeze enemies; implemented in 3 GB, behaves like Ice Slasher, implemented in WW...?).
- In the "Wily Eyebrow" sequence the building in the distance would probably be Skull Castle (changed for the WW).
- The removal of unused screens and tiles.

Possibly (seems logical)
- Rush Marine not being summoned in water (I'm gonna check this out sometime, the keys are WW and MM4 since they are the most direct follow ups to the mechanics between RJ and RM).
- Protoman transforming into Breakman / Brakman having a different attack pattern / Breakman simply not appearing at all
- Doc Robot using the sounds of the MM2 guys.
- Fortress bosses with "big" explosions.
- A better cut for the end music-?  It simply cuts Proto's theme off and most MM games don't do that.
- A better Top Spin (it already bumps MM away when it doesn't work).
- Doc Robot Magnetman?  The tiles exist for a Doc Robot level and the mugshots were originally arranged that way.
- Implementation of the Mega Buster.  No evidence that it got past design stages. 

Unlikely
- Implementation of other animal helpers.  Again, no evidence that it got past the design stages and the designs were unspeific.
- A smoother Doc Robot animation and physics (IMHO, they did their best for the time).
- An introduction (MM4 and beyond has one, but there's no other indication that it would be done).

Anything else?  MM3 lacks an opening scene, but I haven't seen anything, even drawn, to suggest it would have one.  

[Bag of Magic Food]

What about that big unused graphic of RockMan's back?

[Gauntlet101010]

If they had wanted that in it would have been in; it's only a graphic. 

[Zan]

But wouldn't that graphic also demand some sort of opening story sequence? That's one thing sorely missing from 3.

[Gauntlet101010]

I figured it was origionally meant for the image at the title.  Since it's bunched with the "got weapon" image also used in the title.

I dunno if an intro would be there if MM3 was continued as Inafune would have wanted.  While MM4 and onwards has it, it could have been decided to be reintroduced specifically at MM4.  There's not much else coobertaing the idea that MM3 would ever have had an intro.

[Zan]

I dunno, I think it feels kind of dull for the title or get weapon screen, it strikes me more as a scene.

Wasn't there also a cityscape background? I feel the two images together could make a nice image of Rock overlooking the city before explosions or such happen. Preluding the attack of mysterious robots.

[Gauntlet101010]

The city scene's place in the rom suggests that it's an alternate version of Wily exiting Light's lab and doing his eyebrow thing.

I agree that it doesn't fit for "get wepons"; you'll recall that rockman 3 used the "get weapon" image for the image on the title screen.  Likely MM'b back was meant to go there, but that it was replaced.  Probably beause of how dull it is.

Edit: I'll file an intro as "unlikely".  MM4 has one, so ... maybe.   But nothing else suggests it.

[Zan]

Speaking of Wily leaving Light's lab, you wrote the following on your site:

In MM3 Wily lifts off from some mysterious area. Judging from the previous scene (where Light talks to MM about Wily stealing Gamma), one assumes this is Light's Lab, but .... is it? In the Wily Wars it's actually Skull Castle .... but that doesn't make much sense. He lifts off from Skull Castle, zooms away and arrives ... right back in Skull Castle? Plus the NES sprite looks nothing like MM3's Skull Castle! Is it Light's Lab?

The impression I got from the scene was that the building in the distance was not where Wily lifts off from, it's too far into the distance from that. We should probably assume that Light's lab is off-screen, either long gone or directly below it. After lifting off, Wily speeds off to go to his Skull Castle, which was visible in the distance all along.

[Gauntlet101010]

It doesn't look like Skull Castle, which I also note.

Edit: WW changes it to Skull Castle, tho.  So it's likely they would have made that, more obviously, into SC had they had more time.

[Zan]

I just think it's a bit weird that in the article you talked of that place as where Wily lifted off from.  It's in the far distance, so either it is just a random backdrop. Or by Megaworld's account, it's Wily destination. It never seemed to be intended as the place he lifted off from.

I think if you were to take into account the additional background that's in the tile data, it seems most likely Wily lifted off from inside the city.

That reminds me, we do have quite a few background differences between the prototype and final game, with a lot of prototype backgrounds seeming much more complex, perhaps those would have been reinserted?

[Gauntlet101010]

I don't want to spend pages upon pages to debate everything I've ever written on my site.  I'm certain there's lots on there that you'd disagree with.

They likely thought the parrallax effect with the stars warranted the removal of the more complex backgrounds.  Just like with geminiman's stage and that planet.  At the time the star effect was pretty bad ass, so it's likely that; for the second screen at least.

But I can't say for certain why they would have removed the more complex backgrounds in favor of simpler ones.  It's like Topman's stage: why did they change that background?  I dunno.  But it was changed when the tiles were already complete, so it's likely a deliberate choice rather than a rough edge due to lack of time.  Given more time, we would have never likely found those screens at all.

Which I ought to note in my list.

[Protoman Blues]

Just a quick thought, but back in the day, I thought MM3 Skull Castle was called Skull Compound.

[Gauntlet101010]

http://megaman.wikia.com/wiki/Robot_Guard

How about this guy?  I didn't think about him before, because he was only a sketch, but the missiles he shoots are very similar to the Giant Springer's.  Do you guys suppose it's likely he was in a version of the prototype?

Then again, he may have been so similar to the Giant Springer that it might have been the reason he was not put in or taken out in the first place.

[Bag of Magic Food]

I figured it was origionally meant for the image at the title.  Since it's bunched with the "got weapon" image also used in the title.

I was thinking it could have been part of an extended ending sequence, where after RockMan finishes running to the left and looks up, the view switches to a close-up of him looking up.  Probably not, but I still wonder why ProtoMan's song is so much longer than what we're normally treated to in the game.

After lifting off, Wily speeds off to go to his Skull Castle, which was visible in the distance all along.

Right, except I have to imagine that after the saucer finishes lifting off, the camera angle has changed so that the castle is now to Wily's left rather than in the back.  And I thought that would have been a good time to insert the full "castle view" music, just for the first time watching the saucer fly, if I were to remake the game.

[Gauntlet101010]

I was thinking it could have been part of an extended ending sequence, where after RockMan finishes running to the left and looks up, the view switches to a close-up of him looking up.  Probably not, but I still wonder why ProtoMan's song is so much longer than what we're normally treated to in the game.

The graphic becomes fully assembled in the game when it's value is switched out with the "got weapon" graphic.  I used to think it was part of an alternate ending, but the evidence in-game doesn't support that.

I can't say why Protoman's song is longer.  I think, had they more time, they probably would have shortened it properly.

Still, it's a repeating track, so it might have ben over the entire credits at one point.

[BaconMan]

I'm breaking rule #1, because there's no way I can have a video recorded, uploaded, and annotated by 3 days ago.

1.- Best Game play

MM3, hands down. Both require precise movements to be successful, yes. But the updated physics in MM3, and the added depth of sliding and the Rush Adaptors make it more possible in 3; though 2 does get props for some unique elements, like the Buebeam Trap and concept of QuickMan's level; even if a little unbalanced in concept (BBT: blow it once, and you're screwed for good!).

2.- Best Robot Masters (compare the 8 robot masters from each game)

Duh. MM3 features all sixteen.

3.- Best Weapons (compare the weapons of both games and give your toughts)

TIE. Every weapon has it's usefulness, even if Spark Shock's is just MagnetMan. Even Shadow Blade ultimately makes sense, as ShadowMan is an amalgomation of QuickMan and MetalMan, and Shadow Blade is one of Quick Boomerang and Metal Blade.

4.- Best Design

Apples and oranges. MM2's plot is supplanted as it's opening and ending, while 3's gameplay IS the plot (though badly illustrated/not clarified.) MM7 is like a midpoint in design that, applied to either of these titles, would be maserful.

5.- Best Soundtrack

MM2, hands down, practically DEFINED the MegaMan sound, all around. MM3's soundtrack was great, but a little more hit-or-miss in some departments; most notably the use and appropriate level of percussion.

6.- Best Ideas

MM3. Not only with Rush and the slide, but the unforgettable concept of the Doc Robot levels; a key ingredient in the MM3 masterpiece that has yet to be reproduced in any of it's following titles. Another example is it's use of widgets; the magnets in MagnetMan's stage produced an anomaly in the gameplay that made such a level seem impossible to navigate otherwise.

7.- Best Game

MM3, but such a concept would never exist if MM2 hadn't existed first, AND been such a blockbuster to begin with.

[Bag of Magic Food]

Another example is it's use of widgets; the magnets in MagnetMan's stage produced an anomaly in the gameplay that made such a level seem impossible to navigate otherwise.

Er, what's this all about now?