MegaMan Zero, then and now.

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Offline Flame

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Reply #75 on: October 23, 2009, 09:46:38 AM
The artwork shows it too.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Acid

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Reply #76 on: October 23, 2009, 09:51:28 AM
And? My point still stands.



Offline Zan

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Reply #77 on: October 23, 2009, 02:10:34 PM
The second saber is probably the Triple Rod, given by Cerveau. In non extended form it's just another Z-saber. Likewise, the Shield Boomerang, Chain Rod and Recoil Rod work in similar fashions; it's the Z-saber transformed and used differently.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #78 on: October 23, 2009, 06:44:13 PM
I'm still wondering whether or not Omega has two sabers...

Let this thread go without checking a little too long.  Some old stuff I missed:

@Hypershell
Who says that his Z-Buster in X7,X8 and CM malfunctioned?
It could just have been the case, that Zero just prefer close combat, instead of ranged combat or Capcom just not wanted to do it because of the gameplay balance.
As Zan said, I never said it malfunctioned, I said it was absent.  The cause of that absence is unknown.

The game balance argument is largely irrelevant to Command Mission; the only benefit of Shot versus Combat is aerial opponents, and Zero has the Dragon Slash for that anyway.  So there's no real reason Double Charge Wave couldn't have made an appearance in Command Arts.

Furthermore the absence of the Z-Buster leaves Zero conspicuously shoved off-screen during Redips's attack on the Central Tower, right after R is killed.  They seemingly figured that him taking cover with Marino, Massimo, and Cinnamon wouldn't be good for his image, and X and Axl are firing back.  Zero just disappears.

As for X7, Zero's already firing a seeker-missile out of his Z-Saber anyway.

I think it's less a matter of game balance and more a matter of just removing a similarity to X to try and keep them more distinct from each other.  They already did that in X4 before bringing the Z-Buster back for another two rounds.

Though, it might just be the case that it really isn't usable anymore. Note that he's an especially poor match with Mach Jentra even in cutscenes, because Jentra is an aerial adversary and Zero is a melee fighter. Likewise, Zero vanishes from the cutscene when the Federation attacks them with flying mechaniloids.
As stated above Zero has Dragon Slash to handle the likes of Jentra.  And as aerial advantages go Jentra is actually pretty lousy; a solid hit will leave him grounded for a bit.  I view Zero's poor matchup against him as simply further evidence of Force Metal tanking, same as X (who actually has the advantage in that case with X-Fire) against Jango.  It's not until Scarface's attack at the beginning of Chapter 9 that there are any implications, much less sure fact, of either X or Zero beating a Force Metal Reploid one-on-one.

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Another thing that discounts Thanatos' notion is we have to factor in the use of the Z-saber as the bustershot's magazine to allow for charging. The Z-saber isn't part of Zero until X2, yet his Z-buster has noticeable charge capabilities even back then. Likewise, the Z-saber upgrade that allows for charging has not yet appeared in the X-series and the bustershot in question seems designed to work with it.
Vice-versa probably makes a little more sense; Milan's gun (or at the very least its magazine interface) being a common weapon at the time of the Z-Saber upgrade.  Otherwise we have to ask what the heck Milan is doing with such a specially made weapon.  Note that, although this could easily be dismissed as sprite laziness, some manner of magazine is visible before obtaining the Z-Saber.

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Offline Flame

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Reply #79 on: October 23, 2009, 07:09:35 PM
could someone answer my questions from before?
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One thing though, that id like to know, is when exactly the reploid/human equality laws were passed. how long after Legions founding? I mean, Prairie seems to have undergone the reploid procedure, but yet, she's still around, period. She should be like 200 years old. And I dont think that she simply has lived a fruitful long life. im sort of wondering in that area. when were the laws passed? depending on when, she may have avoided them.

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Hmm... Another question to add to my previous inquiry, how the hell is it that they let Weil use Zero's body? I mean, it would be just as easy, if not more, to just wake up the damn bastard rather than going behind his back and donating his body while his brain is still sleeping.
Unless, and its an idea that I just thought of, they were already planning to give him a new body? Maybe as part of Zero's initial reason for sealing himself?

Though then Weil probably would not have gotten the body if that was the reason...

anything?

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Keno

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Reply #80 on: October 23, 2009, 07:16:57 PM



Offline Zan

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Reply #81 on: October 23, 2009, 07:22:33 PM
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As stated above Zero has Dragon Slash to handle the likes of Jentra. 

Which I don't think he has at that time. Of course, Force Metal and the aerial disadvantage only adds insult to injury. As for X, it's his hobby to start the game weaker than Zero.

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24XX.

Unknown date is unknown.

And X-series weaponry has no relevance to ZERO-series weaponry because Zero had no weapons when Passy revived him.

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could someone answer my questions from before?

Most certainly not.

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One thing though, that id like to know, is when exactly the reploid/human equality laws were passed. how long after Legions founding?

At the time of Legions' founding.

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depending on when, she may have avoided them.

Nick: I'm Nick... Who are you? As you can see, I'm an old-model Reploid! Just because I'm old doesn't mean that my life cycle settings are any longer. It just means that I'm a previous generation Reploid.

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Hmm... Another question to add to my previous inquiry, how the hell is it that they let Weil use Zero's body? I mean, it would be just as easy, if not more, to just wake up the damn bastard rather than going behind his back and donating his body while his brain is still sleeping.

Because they figured Omega would be far more effective in mass exterminating irregulars compared to Zero?



Offline Keno

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Reply #82 on: October 23, 2009, 07:42:10 PM
Unknown date is unknown.
What do you mean? 21XX was X, 22XX was CM, 23XX was when Zero took a nap, & 24XX was when he woke up. Or am I mistaken?



Offline Flame

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Reply #83 on: October 23, 2009, 07:57:24 PM
You are quite mistaken. 21XX is X, 22XX is Command Mission, and 22XX is Zero series. actually, isnt ZX 24XX? Isnt ZX 200 years after Z4?

Yeah. CM sorta clashes with the Zero series a bit.

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Most certainly not.
Eh? Why not? I seriously wanna know about the matter.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Zan

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Reply #84 on: October 23, 2009, 10:16:02 PM
Flame, MANGA IS NOT CANON. =p

Only the Rockman ZERO manga says 22XX. Whereas in terms of the games, XCM is the only game that is confirmed as taking place in 22XX. The only game related reference to 22XX as the ZERO-series exists in some of the earliest advertisements for the game.

The Rockman ZERO series takes place 150 years or more after Zero seals himself away. Zero has yet to seal himself in the X-series as of 22XX. Therefore unknown century, unknown millennium.

I could tell you the exact time, day and month one attack from Ragnarok killed 15 million, though.

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Eh? Why not? I seriously wanna know about the matter.

I'll never tell you!

Except, I already seriously explained it to you in the last post.



Offline Flame

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Reply #85 on: October 23, 2009, 11:35:06 PM
Flame, MANGA IS NOT CANON. =p

Only the Rockman ZERO manga says 22XX. Whereas in terms of the games, XCM is the only game that is confirmed as taking place in 22XX. The only game related reference to 22XX as the ZERO-series exists in some of the earliest advertisements for the game.

The Rockman ZERO series takes place 150 years or more after Zero seals himself away. Zero has yet to seal himself in the X-series as of 22XX. Therefore unknown century, unknown millennium.

I could tell you the exact time, day and month one attack from Ragnarok killed 15 million, though.
I did not say ANYTHING about Manga. Ive always believed, I dont even remember where from- that Zero series is 22XX. its been stated somewhere, I just dont remember. probably because they say a century after the 21XX X series. which, mind you, was said before CM came out, so at the time, it WAS 22XX, since that is what would be a century after. of course, then we go on with Z3 and the el wars, which state that the elf wars itself lasted a century...

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I'll never tell you!

Except, I already seriously explained it to you in the last post.
Oh- I missed it.
Sorry.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Hypershell

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Reply #86 on: October 24, 2009, 12:53:40 AM
Inticreates themselves destroyed the 22XX estimate when they added a second sealing for Zero in order to explain the Dark Elf's origins.  Clearly they did not consider themselves bound by the calendar, so there's no reason Command Mission should have been.

I have to seriously question the "150 years" count.  That is bare minimum when you take MMZOCW into account, but I do not find the bare minimum to be the likely scenario in this case.  MMZOCW states "For half a century, Zero was used in many Sigma Virus-related experiments."  That tells us the length of experiments, not the length of his seal.  Zero did not seal himself to donate his body to science, he sealed himself for the removal of something not specified from his systems, and was expected to wake up in approximately 102 years.  Obviously things did not go as planned for him to have woken up in a copy body with the original spearheading the worst war in history, but that could yield a longer seal just as easily as it could a shorter one.

Which I don't think he has at that time.
Incorrect.  Dragon Slash is one of his three default abilities for Command Arts, he has it in Lagrano Ruins at the very beginning of the game.  Wave Slash and Skull Crush are the ones you have to earn.

Basically it just shows how awesome Zero is.  No other character can reliably hit aerial foes using Combat attacks without the use of Hawk/Eagle Eye.

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Offline marshmallow man

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Reply #87 on: October 24, 2009, 08:43:46 PM
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Thing is, we're talking about a conflict that spanned centuries, how do you define "quickly" in regards to something like that?

Shorter than the 4 year war that supersedes it, I venture to guess.

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I wonder, in RTRZ, how exactly did they describe the Shining Arms?

It didn't attempt to define them, it only noted that the Z-saber was one of them.

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Vigilante?

Well, vigilante is my view, though perhaps I am mistaken. I can't seem to find the old english ZX site to compare. Does is still exist somewhere? The current english ZXA one seems to call the Raiders "Guardians."

I can compare that the english ZX instruction manual has translated 国家非公認組織 as "an organization run unofficially by the state" whereas I would read it to mean simply that the nations legally have not authorized/do not condone this group. A non-governmental organization is my understanding, something like a reploid Greenpeace.  Sometimes it's written 政府非公認組織 instead, which is roughly the same, a governmentally non-sanctioned organization. While certainly a secret government organization would be regarded as unofficial and be denied involvement to the general public, they'd still be reporting to the highest levels of authority. So far there hasn't been a stated connection to Legions, the highest form of world government, whom such a secret organization would seemingly be held accountable to in their world. The one given credit to their foundation in-game is Prairie's sis, who has quite a history of doing what she believes is right regardless of the law's position.

ZX Tunes' liner notes for Grand Nuage included:
全ての人々を守る「盾」としてのガーディアンの象徴である一方で、その行動を制限する術を持たない政府にとって、いささか煙たい存在でもある。

Guarian's "shield" is a symbol of protection for all people, but on the other hand, the government which does not posses means to restrict their actions regards their existence rather murkily.

It doesn't sound to me like the government likes them too much. A private army fly around freely in their mobile base, outside the legal jurisdiction of the existing nations, doing whatever they please. Their actions are generally noble and they're heroes and protectors to the people on the frontiers, where Hunters may be in short supply. They're not openly breaking the law or presenting a danger so they are tolerated, but not exactly welcomed. Serpent's security forces on the other hand seem to have both the confidence of the people and the official backing of the government to hold important influence within Cinq Ville. There's definitely a disparity between those groups, whereas if Guardian had some superlative secret authority in the government, they would be in a position to arrest Serpent for questioning directly and the seize his company from him. Though perhaps they simply lacked clear opportunity to do so without starting a war they weren't sure they had the firepower to win.

I could be wrong, maybe Guardian did have ties to some government somewhere. Maybe Master Thomas secretly used them as spies on Albert's plans, or by Albert himself to keep one step ahead of his own antagonists. Mikhail at least seems entirely clueless, although he seems to have been in the dark about many things when it comes to his colleagues' activities.

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Given the lack of organized irregular hunters amongst Legions, I always got the impression they were more official than that. At least, the english ZX site referred to them as a secret government organization.

The Hunter Guild is an official group through which Legions interacts and supports, and by whom maverick uprisings are supposed to be suppressed. The armed force Atlas led in her doomed country was Hunter-related in ZXG's D&W track. But like that example shows, sometimes they seem to be outnumbered or outclassed by their maverick opposition. Particularly on the edges of civilization like the outlands, they can do for a bit of help. Whether Ciel took it upon herself to take up that mantle or the government secretly backed her in doing so, Guardian still seems to be operating outside the parameters of normal law.

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Furthermore the absence of the Z-Buster leaves Zero conspicuously shoved off-screen during Redips's attack on the Central Tower, right after R is killed.  They seemingly figured that him taking cover with Marino, Massimo, and Cinnamon wouldn't be good for his image, and X and Axl are firing back.  Zero just disappears.

Maybe he jumped up there and took down the ship, X3 style. Something unshown ended the assault, I like to imagine he contributed a bit.

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I view Zero's poor matchup against him as simply further evidence of Force Metal tanking, same as X (who actually has the advantage in that case with X-Fire) against Jango.

Zero might not have been at 100%, since we don't know what kind of injuries he sustained after the first chapter, or under what circumstances he recovered from them. Good enough to fight through Jentra's goons, though.

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Ive always believed, I dont even remember where from- that Zero series is 22XX.

Don't feel too bad about it, Capcom artist Ryuuji Higurashi thought the same thing when he was working on Command Mission.



Offline Flame

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Reply #88 on: October 24, 2009, 10:43:42 PM
Well Zero DID fall off the Lagrano lab top floor, and from what we know, that outright knocked X out, if not extensively damaged him, who jumped. Zero on the other hand, was knocked off by Shadows Cannon.
Plus, while X was found by the guys who brought him to Central tower, I dont think anyone found Zero. He probably did LOL AUTO REPAIR a little bit, and picked up some energy capsules.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Zan

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Reply #89 on: October 25, 2009, 01:09:52 AM
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It just occurred to me that in a topic about the revisions the Z series undertook, we haven't discussed the change from the cross-like Heaven to the domed Neo Arcadia. Not that I can think of much to add about it, just seems funny we didn't mention it.

I'm not sure if "domed Neo Arcadia" really replaced "cross-like Heaven". Given Heaven Base's depiction in the manga, to me it seems more like they replaced that concept with the Orbital Elevator and Area X; Neo Arcadia being the city that stands around Heaven.

On another note, I still wonder how the whole dome concept is supposed to work.

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Well, vigilante is my view, though perhaps I am mistaken.

No, your post certainly clears it up. The games themselves aren't very clear it on the matter and this explains why Thomas did mention that Guardian was approaching the quarry.

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It didn't attempt to define them, it only noted that the Z-saber was one of them.

Then certainly, at the time of Z1, they could have been anything.



Offline marshmallow man

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Reply #90 on: October 28, 2009, 02:52:03 AM
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On another note, I still wonder how the whole dome concept is supposed to work.

Me too. Sure doesn't resemble the domes of Paradigm City.



Offline Keno

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Reply #91 on: October 28, 2009, 06:48:31 AM
Paradigm City was CM, right?



Offline Saber

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Reply #92 on: October 28, 2009, 04:17:23 PM
Paradigm City was CM, right?

You're getting your stuff crossed here, bro. Paradigm City was the location of the anime series "The Big O". It's a domed city ruled by a large megacorporation, with nobody quite happening that happened earlier than 40 years ago.






Offline Keno

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Reply #93 on: October 28, 2009, 04:31:37 PM
I was drunk, & I realized in my dreams before I awoke today.



Offline xnamkcor

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Reply #94 on: April 18, 2010, 12:49:57 AM
Coming in late and reponding to the original post.
My solution:
I never played Zero 2, X6(or pretend I didn't), or X7 and pretend X8 was non-canonical(Canocal?).

I never saw a problem with anything. Maybe they could pretend they used different calendars or something.



Offline Flame

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Reply #95 on: May 22, 2010, 08:19:12 AM
and pretend X8 was non-canonical(Canocal?).

Im going to necropost here- but- Why?
did you dislike it that much?

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Klavier Gavin

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Reply #96 on: May 22, 2010, 08:31:53 AM
and pretend X8 was non-canonical(Canocal?).

Was it because of Zero's helmet?



Offline Flame

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Reply #97 on: May 22, 2010, 09:01:18 AM
Was it because of Zero's helmet?
Lord knows I have my nitpicks with X8, but I know I wouldnt disown it over that.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Mirby

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Reply #98 on: May 22, 2010, 09:08:07 AM
I'm just going to throw my guess in here; maybe he has a problem with Axl?

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Offline Align

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Reply #99 on: November 10, 2010, 01:56:19 PM
Is this the right place to ask about the soul-splitting of X sealing the Dark Elf? Specifically, if that happened, what the source is, and if the Guardians know about X being at Yggdrasil (if so, why do they accept Copy-X as the real one?).