RockmanPM Forums
Rockman & Community => Rockman Series => Topic started by: Treleus on December 21, 2012, 05:29:20 PM
-
http://www.capcom-unity.com/sven/blog/2012/12/20/we-need-your-input
Here's a nicely comprehensive survey as to what we want to see from Capcom on the digital front. Everything's fair game: ports/compilations, HD ports/remakes/compilations, and new HD titles, whether you're on a PC or console. Here's what I put down on mine more or less:
Yes to ports/compilations/new HD titles of Mega Man classic, the SNES half of Mega Man X + X4 (maybe X6 if it's cleaned up), Power Stone, Dino Crisis, the pre-PSP Ghosts n' Goblins games, BN1 & 2, Breath of Fire, and Cyberbots: Full Metal Madness (not listed; entered in)
No to ports/compilations/ new HD titles of Resident Evil, Onimusha, Viewtiful Joe, Dead Rising, etc. etc.
"Franchise extensions" sounds like a mixed bag. It could be anything from turning Mega Man into an MMO or Resident Evil into an adventure game. Since this is for digital games and not retail, I shouldn't be expecting anything huge, so this could be cool and harmless. Or it could be more of Rockman Xover, which may or may not be exciting. This is getting a pretty resounding "eh" from me; there's few if any Capcom franchises I want to see reinvented or branched off right now. I don't really want to see Breath of Fire turning into something other than an RPG about dragons in a fantasy world, for instance. I guess I wouldn't blow a gasket if BoF's latest iteration turned out to be a social game experiment for the iPhone, but I wouldn't be buying it.
Like I said, I do want to see an HD remake of the Mega Man X games, if it takes some cues from MHX and writes a better/different plot and main character. I'd also love to see HD remakes of the old Breath of Fire games; those could do with some major overhauling. Even Legends could do with a new coat of paint. I'd want to see these kinds of projects the most, for starters. Then, or as a coincidence, franchise reboots/new entries. $10 seems like a reasonably accessible price for digital title remakes/new entries.
I put down my support for the following franchises: Strider, Power Stone, Mega Man, Ghosts n' Goblins, Dino Crisis, Darkstalkers, Breath of Fire, Ace Attorney, 194X, and Cyberbots: Full Metal Madness. Assuming we actually get HD remakes/new entries in most of these franchises, we could be looking at a very rich Capcom renaissance.
-
Yeah there weren't any easy choices there, I'm kinda interested in straight porting some of their games to digital format but it'd depend hugely on which games (I'd buy a Steam port of Demon's Crest in a heartbeat even if just to show there's some demand), so ticking that box... hm.
Not sure why reboots and new entries were one option either, considering how much more often reboots tend to miss the point compared to new entries.
Spin-offs tend to be surprisingly good from Capcom, so that one feels like a fairly safe bet - but they also tend to sell poorly, I think? So there's practically nil chance of sequels.
Also [parasitic bomb], I forgot to mention Ghost Trick...
-
I am starting to put a foot forward, for a new Power Battles game. It includes all the Classic Series bosses, converted into one huge battle zone.
A beginning story, before X became the hero. A playable Sigma, instead of giving him Animal Reploid bosses, give them warrior type names. Like Electric Aztec or Mountain Knight.
Plus, MMX9 a story that ends the Maverick Wars, immediately leading into the Elf Wars.
Legends 3, I would buy in a heartbeat.
--------------------------------------------
A new Demons Crest, or something where Firebrand is the main hero. Heck Yeah...
A new Breath of Fire, as long as they go back to the #3 style graphics and gameplay, I would get as well.
A new Ghosts and Goblins, if I don't do myself first... >BD
-
Well since somebody else in this thread just copy and pasted their response from Sonic Retro, I'll do the same thing.
Well I finally did the survey.
I was pretty all over the place for re-releases of the Classic Series (3, 4, 7 and 8 I would definitely buy, 2 and 9 were "Probably wouldn't buy", everything else was "Might", no MM&B?), but I love X and want the whole series to be re-released again, yes, even X6 and X7. [tornado fang] you, X6 is a masterpiece.
Best Music of the PSX games, lots of innovative features, was it annoying at times? Yes, but lots of games have annoying stuff, like MM2, 2 has lots of annoying things that people look past because of "MUH NOSTALGIA" like those stupid lasers or that [tornado fang]ing boss you had to beat with Crash Bombs. What did X4 have? Boring Music, meh tier levels, and it overall was too easy. Then again to me the X series games are easier than the classic titles.
Legends was obviously "Definitely" Though I thought L1 failed an IP check or something so it couldn't get a re-release.
Battle Network was a series I enjoyed, but with re-releases, 1 was a maybe, 2 and 3 were probably, 4 was a probably not, 5 was maybe, and 6 was probably. Didn't see anything about a rerelease of NETWORK TRANSMISSION though.
I would have loved if they asked about ZX, I want ZX3.
But again, Digital releases, maybe they should do one for physical releases.
-
[tornado fang] you, X6 is a masterpiece.
+1 X6 is a masterpiece indeed. For a few reasons.
What did X4 have? Boring Music, meh tier levels,
well, there goes that 1...
-
I asked for more Star Force love.
Also said yes to all Power Stone stuff because Power Stone.
-
+1 X6 is a masterpiece indeed. For a few reasons.
well, there goes that 1...
What? I like X4 fine, but I'm sick of people calling it the best X game like its [tornado fang]ing perfect or something while calling X6 "broken" or "unfinished" like the game was unplayable. It has its own problems, which to me are the music at times (Web Spider, Storm Owl off the top of my head. I'm sure there is some more.) and some of the level design leaves sething to be desired.
-
and some of the level design leaves sething to be desired.
want the arm upgrade? pick which one you want! but you have to get through some tricky spikes if you want to get to the capsules! :D
-
I'm against ports. Maybe if it's some obscure game for an obscure system, but usually I'm against. The same for HD ports, unless they add a new mode or something. Revamped graphics is not enough. "Extensions" are risky, but they may result in very fun spinoffs. Battle Network also started as an "extension" of a run'n'gun franchise, and look how nice it turned out to be.
I also voted for new titles, and compilations, but:
These compilations should feel like a one big game, not 10 separate entities connected only by the title screen. I mean things like one audiovisual style for all, more cameos, maybe even one common inventory/weaponry/difficulty level (increasing from 1 to 10). THE Mega Man game.
Other than MM I voted for Ace Attorney, and 194X. Good old shooters need some love too!
-
Full disclosure: I don't think X4's the best X game ever. That would be X1. X4's just the most enjoyable out of the Playstation games.
I still fail to see how X6 is a masterpiece. That's grandiose praise for a game includes such fabulously unfun stages as Blaze Heatnix, Blizzard Wolfang, Commander Yammark, and Blastoise Whatever-the-[tornado fang]. X6 doesn't so much challenge my skill as it does my patience, and that's why, even with all the good things it does with weapon abilities, the plot (that one tell-all cutscene after you've grinded for three hours), and some stages/bosses (Gate being a clever example), it's an arguably unfinished game. I see the potential, but as it is, it's mostly a nightmare.
The music's great, though.
Also, Boobeam Trap (http://megaman.wikia.com/wiki/Boobeam_Trap) has nothing on Nightmare Mother (http://megaman.wikia.com/wiki/Nightmare_Phenomenon#Nightmare_Mother).
-
Full disclosure: I don't think X4's the best X game ever. That would be X1. X4's just the most enjoyable out of the Playstation games.
I still fail to see how X6 is a masterpiece. That's grandiose praise for a game includes such fabulously unfun stages as Blaze Heatnix, Blizzard Wolfang, Commander Yammark, and Blastoise Whatever-the-[tornado fang]. X6 doesn't so much challenge my skill as it does my patience, and that's why, even with all the good things it does with weapon abilities, the plot (that one tell-all cutscene after you've grinded for three hours), and some stages/bosses (Gate being a clever example), it's an arguably unfinished game. I see the potential, but as it is, it's mostly a nightmare.
The music's great, though.
Also, Boobeam Trap (http://megaman.wikia.com/wiki/Boobeam_Trap) has nothing on Nightmare Mother (http://megaman.wikia.com/wiki/Nightmare_Phenomenon#Nightmare_Mother).
Except Nightmare Mother doesn't have only one weapon it takes damage from. That makes it 1000 times better by default.
-
such fabulously unfun stages as
Blaze Heatnix
granted
Blizzard Wolfang
I disagree. I liked it. i particularly enjoyed the fact you couldnt climb on walls, since yknow, they were made of ICE. They also went full out with the slippery thing on it. it was an alright stage.
Commander Yammark
Only with the Night,are blinds. otherwise his stage is actually kind of unremarkable. it DOES have an annoying leap of faith down the spiked slope though.
and Blastoise Whatever-the-[tornado fang].
Eeeeh, granted, but I personally didnt mind it as much as heatnix.
Thing about X6, is it's brutal unforgiving nature means you will never get bored with it's difficulty. X4 I find less and less enjoyment in because Ive played it so much that it just offers me no challenge at all. It became boring to play. X5 just a slight bit tedious.
X6 however, throws the kitchen sink at you, and therefore it feels that much more satisfying to plow through it all. Heatnix is the epitome of unfinished, ill grant you that- but the rest of the stages are not that bad, and some are interesting. I liked the laser puzzles in Sheldon's stage. I liked The ice gimmick in Wolfang's. I liked the Central Museum and it's somewhat randomized area warps. (and Im one of the few people who actually kind of like the Central Museum music) I also liked The Final Countdown The Weapon's Center, with Illumina. And I don't mind Shark Player's stage. It's practically Dustman X. On Steroids.
I just like X6. I like the final stages with their spike fetish, I like the bosses, I like the music, (at least we agree on that) Above all though, the story and presentation- It's the only post X4 Game, (that is, with multiple armors) that actually reflects each and every armor, in X's Mugshot. (X8 was just one armor with color variations, and they were too lazy to even properly make THOSE mugshots) Even Zero's Black Armor gets it's own mugshot. Every character has one, and they are all animated, ala X4. (well, slightly better than X4. these blink) Only Sigma does not have his own custom animated mugshot, instead using the X5 stage select Final stage icon for some strange reason.
X6's story was fantastic, and Gate was the best villain in the X series, by far. being incredibly fleshed out and caringly designed for a one off ONE GAME character. he had a backstory, motivations, even character relations with the cast.
Also, X6 is probably the best characterization X has ever gotten.
-
Also, X6 is probably the best characterization X has ever gotten.
That's because Zero is optional. Had he not been optional, it would've been like X4 and X5, with Zero getting the most storyline.
-
I disagree. I liked it. i particularly enjoyed the fact you couldnt climb on walls, since yknow, they were made of ICE. They also went full out with the slippery thing on it. it was an alright stage.
As far as ice stages go, there have been better. Wolfang's unremarkable when it's not forcing you to wait for ice blocks to barrel past you.
Only with the Night,are blinds. otherwise his stage is actually kind of unremarkable. it DOES have an annoying leap of faith down the spiked slope though.
Which follows a great stand-around segment on the snail-bots, and precedes an admittedly challenging gauntlet of Mantis bots guarding the boss room.
Eeeeh, granted, but I personally didnt mind it as much as heatnix.
They're both bad, but Heatnix's is actually less frustrating less of the time. It doesn't have any of those irritating rocket arm guys or a few miles of bottomless water.
Thing about X6, is it's brutal unforgiving nature means you will never get bored with it's difficulty. X4 I find less and less enjoyment in because Ive played it so much that it just offers me no challenge at all. It became boring to play. X5 just a slight bit tedious.
X6 however, throws the kitchen sink at you, and therefore it feels that much more satisfying to plow through it all. Heatnix is the epitome of unfinished, ill grant you that- but the rest of the stages are not that bad, and some are interesting. I liked the laser puzzles in Sheldon's stage. I liked The ice gimmick in Wolfang's. I liked the Central Museum and it's somewhat randomized area warps. (and Im one of the few people who actually kind of like the Central Museum music) I also liked The Final Countdown The Weapon's Center, with Illumina. And I don't mind Shark Player's stage. It's practically Dustman X. On Steroids.
The thing about X6 and X5 is they both share the same feeling of tedium, except the latter mixes it with an unprecedented amount of difficulty. Trying to survive in stages like Central Museum or the Weapon Center is addicting, but the fact that the rest of the stages are tedious undercuts the thrill for me.
I just like X6. I like the final stages with their spike fetish, I like the bosses, I like the music, (at least we agree on that) Above all though, the story and presentation- It's the only post X4 Game, (that is, with multiple armors) that actually reflects each and every armor, in X's Mugshot. (X8 was just one armor with color variations, and they were too lazy to even properly make THOSE mugshots) Even Zero's Black Armor gets it's own mugshot. Every character has one, and they are all animated, ala X4. (well, slightly better than X4. these blink) Only Sigma does not have his own custom animated mugshot, instead using the X5 stage select Final stage icon for some strange reason.
X5's the only competition when it comes to post-X4 games, and they're both virtually the same. An animated mugshot isn't much in the way of presentation, although it is nice. X6's bosses are actually not that bad.
X6's story was fantastic, and Gate was the best villain in the X series, by far. being incredibly fleshed out and caringly designed for a one off ONE GAME character. he had a backstory, motivations, even character relations with the cast.
Also, X6 is probably the best characterization X has ever gotten.
Yeah, I agree with most of that. Gate basically fell prey to the same thing Sigma did, but he didn't just become another Sigma, and the backstory was nice. X had more of a character to show off in this game than in previous games, including X4.
-
*sighs* Not in a wall of text mood tonight, and Flame and Hawaii seem to have this one well in hand.
Here we go, the short short version:
Is X6 awesome? Hell yes.
Digital game I want from Capcom? This:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWNyhicSz-I[/youtube]
Good, you're married, kiss her.
-
Except Nightmare Mother doesn't have only one weapon it takes damage from. That makes it 1000 times better by default.
Nah, I disagree. Boobeam's at once more thrilling and rewarding to defeat. Plus it takes less than a third of the time it takes to defeat Nightmare Mother.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARAp-SAq4gY[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I65mRaqFTe4[/youtube]
Even if the weak points are hard to get to, and I've got limited ammo, I'd rather do critical damage with each shot rather than chip away at a huge life bar. Extra points for requiring you to use the Transport Items to maneuver around the barriers.
-
Nah, I disagree. Boobeam's at once more thrilling and rewarding to defeat. Plus it takes less than a third of the time it takes to defeat Nightmare Mother.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARAp-SAq4gY[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I65mRaqFTe4[/youtube]
Even if the weak points are hard to get to, and I've got limited ammo, I'd rather do critical damage with each shot rather than chip away at a huge life bar. Extra points for requiring you to use the Transport Items to maneuver around the barriers.
Well, that's Xtreme mode. The worst I play on is normal so that's probably why I don't care.
-
Having only one weapon you can defeat it with, with limited ammo, is bad game design. Because if you make a mistake, or go in without any ammo or low on it, you are [tornado fang]'d.
-
Having only one weapon you can defeat it with, with limited ammo, is bad game design. Because if you make a mistake, or go in without any ammo or low on it, you are [tornado fang]'d.
Agreed. That being said, having to use optional upgrades to be able to complete a level is also bad game design.
-
Fair enough, but the game already sets the standard by starting the game with an armor, with an air dash. It tells you the game's default X has Falcon Armor. That means if you want to go through Gate's stages with unarmored X, that's not exactly the Game's problem, it's you trying to be a tough guy. There is no way around the Falcon Armor, and by proxy, the abilities it grants, and that's from the very start of the game. Similarly with the saber, it starts you with it, meaning you will need it as your sub weapon as X, and in the intro stage alone, there are enemies and blocks which can only be destroyed with the saber.
Also, you can still cross it unarmored, by alternating between the Fire Saber and the Ground Dash, with the pause menu.
X5 by contrast, allows you to lose the armor if you start with Zero, meaning the game considers the Armor to not be an absolute necessity, just an edge, via the air dash, Plasma Shot, and the ability to charge weapons. (as well as reduced recoil and damage.) It instead rewards you, if you forgo X in the intro stage, with Zero's Z-buster, (the balance of said reward is debatable, but that's another story) where if you start with X, you gain the armor and lose the Z-Buster.
That one boss in MM2 however, has no precedent. There is no indication of such a gameplay gimmick existing, and it takes you completely by surprise, and CAN get you completely unprepared. The game does nothing to tell you elsewhere that there might be a boss that can only be defeated by a full ammo bar in one weapon.
(Although I suppose the same could be said about High Max, with the difference that he himself is completely optional)
-
That means if you want to go through Gate's stages with unarmored X, that's not exactly the Game's problem, it's you trying to be a tough guy.
It is the game's problem. If you go in there first without the armour not knowing what's coming, you can't get through it. You have to kill yourself completely to restart with the proper optional parts / armour. Face it, it's bad game design. It should still be possible to get through with the bare minimum no matter what, precedent set or not. I seem to recall having a similar problem elsewhere in the game as well, although I cannot recall where exactly it was (haven't played X6 in a while).
Do notice I'm not defending Buebeam. I agree that's bad as well.
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARAp-SAq4gY
I like my way better~ (http://www.rockmanpm.com/?p=mp4/vixynyan2buebeam)
I didn't mean to get hit that one time tho. ^^;
-
It is the game's problem. If you go in there first without the armour not knowing what's coming, you can't get through it. You have to kill yourself completely to restart with the proper optional parts / armour. Face it, it's bad game design. It should still be possible to get through with the bare minimum no matter what, precedent set or not. I seem to recall having a similar problem elsewhere in the game as well, although I cannot recall where exactly it was (haven't played X6 in a while).
Do notice I'm not defending Buebeam. I agree that's bad as well.
It may not be the best design, but again, The game tells you you will need an air dash for this game. If you want to throw what the game considers default out the window, that's just you making it more challenging for yourself. It's like going to a shooting range and being given a gun upon entry, told you will need a gun, and deciding instead to put the gun away and use just your fists to shoot the target.
-
Then the game shouldn't give you the option to do so. Fxeni's right on the button. Hell, at least with the MM2 thing, even if you don't have the weapon energy or can't figure out the pattern, you only have to kill yourself once then refill the weapon energy with the Sexy Robo Leg Joes. You don't have to completely restart the level.
-
You still have to kill yourself. And what if I have no lives left after the previous Wily stages?
You can still be caught completely unprepared for it since it requires your entire weapon bar. It's just as guilty. it's only slightly less so because X6 just has more instances of that kind of thing. (And only by 1, Gate's Jump of faith and High Max pre- Turtloid's weapon if I'm remembering my X6 right.)
And again, it's perfectly possible to cross that section of gate's lab unarmored, without parts. You DO require two specific special weapons, but honestly, you are just stupid if you want to go into the final stages early without having beaten all the bosses.
and Unarmored X available because it can't just DENY you unarmored X. It's there if you want to use it. He's completely optional. That doesn't mean he's recommended or encouraged.
-
You still have to kill yourself. And what if I have no lives left after the previous Wily stages?
Then you shouldn't be playing MM2. That game coughs up 1-Up MM heads like it's goin' out of style!
As for this...
And again, it's perfectly possible to cross that section of gate's lab unarmored, without parts. You DO require two specific special weapons, but honestly, you are just stupid if you want to go into the final stages early without having beaten all the bosses.
and Unarmored X available because it can't just DENY you unarmored X. It's there if you want to use it. He's completely optional. That doesn't mean he's recommended or encouraged.
I've never played X6, but if what you described is true then that's a whole lot worse than MM2. With MM2, you only need to learn your lesson once. From what you just described, X6 is like X5 in that it gives you the option to skip some of the bosses before the final stages. It also gives you the option of Armor Free X. So one can't get past this area without either these two special weapons or X wearing his Armani. The game gives you multiple options to get through the game while insanely hampering your choices depending on how you want to proceed. Which is [tornado fang]ing terrible. MM2 is at least linear. X games have offered you choices but have never limited the ability to make it through the game if you follow it's linear path. This game gives you too many multiple options to the point that you cannot, like Fxeni said, get through with the bare minimum no matter what.
-
EVERY SINGLE Megaman option was a definite buy for me. Considering I've only ever played X7/8 and MM9/10 from those series, I'll take 'em all. Twice, if necessary.
-
I sincerely hope that we get the Prototype soon. It's too good not to get released. I'll play it in Japanese, I don't care.
As for X6/X5, if the game is not tailored for X to be unarmored, then why have him as an option? An extra, extra hard mode whose difficulty depends on misguided level design? Better to give him the previous armors' abilities and progress the character that way instead of providing unnecessary options. Same goes for the option to bypass stages. This game would be a lot better if at least two things were rectified:
1) You could get through the game with X without needing anything
2) THAT'S IT
It could still use copy+paste as a method for enemy placement, and I'd be a little less pissed at it just for that. Also if it didn't start me off with the armor from the last game. Mostly, it's the fact that the design is so hell-bent on getting you to use armors (that I don't like to boot), parts (which are a pain to get/rescuing Reploids is bullshit), or Zero that pisses me off about X6. In spite of times where X6 actually shines, the whole experience kinda bores me, or leaves me with anything but accomplishment at the end of it.
If you gave me a choice between a gauntlet of, like, 8 variations of Buebeam and playing X6, I might find the former much more rewarding in terms of challenge.
-
If you gave me a choice between a gauntlet of, like, 8 variations of Buebeam and playing X6, I might find the former much more rewarding in terms of challenge.
Except that would be impossible to accomplish since you don't have enough crash bombs to even make one mistake.
-
You can beat the Buebeam Trap with 1 Crash Bomb remaining. 2 if you're damn good at exploiting the game engine. (And of course, more if you die, refill your energy, and fight again.)
-
Naturally they'd be refilled with each Buebeam defeated. Duh.
-
Naturally they'd be refilled with each Buebeam defeated. Duh.
That's a cop-out.
-
That's a cop-out.
I agree with this.
You're changing the rules of the game to suit your own distaste for X6. I mean, to each their own, but still.
That's not really a fair comparison. That's like me saying I'd rather play a ridiculously hard boss rush mode where I'm fully healed after each fight than play a game which has no such modifications nor healing rules.
-
You do realize you're also calling the health/weapon refills between boss rushes a "cop-out", then, right? That's basically what I was citing.
-
Not all boss rushes have those, and having them lessens the difficulty severely.
In fact, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be much of a challenge at all with the refills between.
-
I'd still enjoy it more than X6. :p
But seriously, that's why I said variations. Nothing too complicated, just shuffling around the barriers and laser turrets, maybe making the room taller or fatter, having the turrets move around, etc. But I think we've gotten far out of hand enough.
-
Then you shouldn't be playing MM2. That game coughs up 1-Up MM heads like it's goin' out of style!
If you think that's generous, look at one of the later games. Freemen galore! 8D
-
That's a cop-out.
One born of a gamer who evidently never played ZX...
You do realize you're also calling the health/weapon refills between boss rushes a "cop-out", then, right? That's basically what I was citing.
Rarely do Mega Man boss gauntlets restore weapon energy between rounds. And even rarer still does such a restore fill an entire weapon bar.
I've never played X6, but if what you described is true then that's a whole lot worse than MM2. With MM2, you only need to learn your lesson once. From what you just described, X6 is like X5 in that it gives you the option to skip some of the bosses before the final stages. It also gives you the option of Armor Free X. So one can't get past this area without either these two special weapons or X wearing his Armani. The game gives you multiple options to get through the game while insanely hampering your choices depending on how you want to proceed. Which is [tornado fang]ing terrible. MM2 is at least linear.
"Linear" is not an indication of quality. The original Mega Man was in fact very non-linear as compared to its competition, and that was its whole damn hook (BTW, on missing optional stuff, Magnet Beam).
The thing about X6 is that while you ARE required to collect some manner of upgrades, IN NO WAY WHATSOEVER is one specific upgrade required at any point in the game. Each and every obstacle in the game has multiple solutions. In other words, it encourages you to experiment, THINK, and apply the method that suits your personal play style. Also, rather than choose to skip in a menu such as X5, X6 requires that you earn the right to skip either by defeating High Max or by spending an extensive amount of time farming for Nightmare Souls, either of which should familiarize yourself with the type of curve-balls that the game is expected to throw at you, and provide any intellegent gamer with an incentive to get equipped before facing the unfamiliar.
In the rare event that you are truly stuck in a level and not just giving up too easily (which outside of Gate's Lab can only happen on optional, alternate paths), the whole must-die thing? It's called Use Previous Data. Unless you're subject to X Collection's tomfoolery (if so, make a habit of saving), there is no excuse to not know the game's menu. I'll admit that removing the "stage already cleared" exit restriction would have been more intuitive, but Start/Select to the Title gets you the same result. X6 does not require suicide (which, if you are a completionist, X5 does).
Finally, in before "the reploid with the part I need was killed", because that's a popular myth. The most valuable thing you can possibly lose is Speedster, which is useful ONLY for physics exploits that you have no reason to be attempting once you've got Hyper Dash.
-
I like having to think. Getting things early by using damage invincibility intelligently? Sign me up! Having no way to progress on a required path without rearranging my base setup and restarting said path? No. As simple as that.
I don't recall ever saying every classic game is perfect, either. A flaw is a flaw, no matter where you find it. You can like the game all you want, but the fact of the matter is that it's a flaw. I'm more lenient when it comes to optional paths (even though it admittedly still bugs me), but on a required path it's out of the question.
-
The spike wall is at the very beginning of the stage, you don't lose any progress. And X's stunt jump falls into the "air dashing is a default ability in this game" thing brought up above.
Those are the only two on a required path.
I'm not saying that a user-friendly tweak here and there wouldn't make the game better, but the core design of X6 is sorely underappreciated and offers a unique challenge and appeal not found elsewhere in the "must use weapon x to destroy block y" obstacles of the rest of the series.
(I don't call the game Mega Man X: The Lost Levels for nothing)
-
Then they should have given the air-dash to everyone, much like X8. No excuse. It's just poor design foresight.
-
"Linear" is not an indication of quality. The original Mega Man was in fact very non-linear as compared to its competition, and that was its whole damn hook (BTW, on missing optional stuff, Magnet Beam).
Never said it was an indication of quality.
The thing about X6 is that while you ARE required to collect some manner of upgrades, IN NO WAY WHATSOEVER is one specific upgrade required at any point in the game. Each and every obstacle in the game has multiple solutions. In other words, it encourages you to experiment, THINK, and apply the method that suits your personal play style. Also, rather than choose to skip in a menu such as X5, X6 requires that you earn the right to skip either by defeating High Max or by spending an extensive amount of time farming for Nightmare Souls, either of which should familiarize yourself with the type of curve-balls that the game is expected to throw at you, and provide any intellegent gamer with an incentive to get equipped before facing the unfamiliar.
Again, my comment was directed at the fact that, according to what Flame said, you either need the armor or and I quote "two specific special weapons" to get past a certain point in the game. If that's the case, when the game gives you the option not to get either of those before reaching said stage, it's bad. You talk about the hook of the original MM games, and the hook is that, while not having to be linear in choosing which path you take, you ultimately wind up being able to progress without having to go back to a certain stage. Classic MM and MMX are not Metroid. It's why MM2 fixed the MM1 Magnet Beam flaw by giving you Items 1-3 when defeating a Robot Master. And then MM3 fixed the MM2 flaw by making Items 1-3 an adorable, awesome, transforming robotic dog. Not to mention Blues! XD
In the rare event that you are truly stuck in a level and not just giving up too easily (which outside of Gate's Lab can only happen on optional, alternate paths), the whole must-die thing? It's called Use Previous Data. Unless you're subject to X Collection's tomfoolery (if so, make a habit of saving), there is no excuse to not know the game's menu. I'll admit that removing the "stage already cleared" exit restriction would have been more intuitive, but Start/Select to the Title gets you the same result. X6 does not require suicide (which, if you are a completionist, X5 does).
Wait wait wait. Are you saying that instead of dying, you can just reset the game and start off at where you last saved? If that's the case, then what's the freakin' difference? XD
Finally, in before "the reploid with the part I need was killed", because that's a popular myth. The most valuable thing you can possibly lose is Speedster, which is useful ONLY for physics exploits that you have no reason to be attempting once you've got Hyper Dash.
I have no idea what you're talking about, but all I'll say on the matter is that saving reploids is god awful and should never have been implemented in the X series! LET THEM DIEEEE! 8D
-
I didn't mind reploid-saving in X5... but that was because it wasn't necessary and they didn't give anything truly vital. just 1ups and health iirc.
-
I didn't mind reploid-saving in X5... but that was because it wasn't necessary and they didn't give anything truly vital. just 1ups and health iirc.
LET. THEM. DIEEEEEEEE! B(
8D
-
LET. THEM. DIEEEEEEEE! B(
8D
See the point I was making is that if they just so happened to die in X5, then no worries. :D
-
See the point I was making is that if they just so happened to die in X5, then no worries. :D
I don't think they could die in X5 unless it was Skiver's stage, X6 they could only die through Nightmare posession (Man I got so pissed with The ice stage, having dogs as both rescuable reploids and enemies confused me for a long time). And as anybody who played X7 would know they would die through getting touched by anything.
-
Again, my comment was directed at the fact that, according to what Flame said, you either need the armor or and I quote "two specific special weapons" to get past a certain point in the game.
If you lack both, there's still Hyper Dash. "Armor" also entails three options in itself, including your starting set. Could possibly add a fourth if you're that obsessed over Shadow Armor's ghetto version of the special weapon exploit, but that's really a shits-and-giggles thing. For practicality's sake, it's more trouble than it's worth (although I personally would have said that about the special weapon route to begin with).
And then MM3 fixed the MM2 flaw by making Items 1-3 an adorable, awesome, transforming robotic dog. Not to mention Blues! XD
Can't argue with that. 8B
Wait wait wait. Are you saying that instead of dying, you can just reset the game and start off at where you last saved? If that's the case, then what's the freakin' difference? XD
What I'm saying is that on the PS1, you don't even need to save. The game keeps track of where you last were automatically as long as you don't power the system off, it's just that the game designers for some reason felt the need to make you jump through a few extra screens to use it. Rather than fixing (ie: just make the damn Exit button available at all times), X Collection removed this feature outright.
I have no idea what you're talking about, but all I'll say on the matter is that saving reploids is god awful and should never have been implemented in the X series! LET THEM DIEEEE!
Mark my words, ONE OF THESE DAYS I'm going to upload an LP where I do exactly that. The importance of the Reploids who can die is seriously overestimated. (though I admit, X7 did start to [acid burst] me off a little...)
It's not directed at you specifically, it's just that I'm tired of hearing random YouTubers who don't know Wolfang's stage layout claiming that they lost Jumper.
Then they should have given the air-dash to everyone, much like X8. No excuse. It's just poor design foresight.
I realize that you're talking about availability and not mechanics, but NEVER use X8 as an example of proper dashing.
That's like the divide-by-zero of 21XX, right up there with X7 as an example of wall-climbing, and X5 as an example of finality.
-
Hey man, as far as I'm concerned dashing in X games started to fall apart as early as X3! Stupid upwards air-dash -u-'
-
Sans the delay, the upwards air-dash was fine. I don't know why they didn't continue with that upgrade. Or why they didn't start X out with horizontal air-dashing.
One born of a gamer who evidently never played ZX...
Oh, I did. I also didn't like it that much, but that's a different topic.
Rarely do Mega Man boss gauntlets restore weapon energy between rounds. And even rarer still does such a restore fill an entire weapon bar.
Considering the inherent requirements of the Boobeam fight, I think an exception would be reasonably necessary. But if that's not acceptable, then the only other option is farming areas, Like Final Stage 4 in X1 or pretty much any other final stage.
The thing about X6 is that while you ARE required to collect some manner of upgrades, IN NO WAY WHATSOEVER is one specific upgrade required at any point in the game. Each and every obstacle in the game has multiple solutions.
Unless you're X, in which case you either have to go on an expedition to find the part you need (assuming the Reploid in question wasn't killed), or use Pause exploit. The latter shouldn't even be considered an option, since the design of how the game should pause--or how a weapon is coded--has no intended (read: intuitive) bearing on how you clear platforming obstacles.
In other words, it encourages you to experiment, THINK, and apply the method that suits your personal play style.
Even if it means the above.
Also, rather than choose to skip in a menu such as X5, X6 requires that you earn the right to skip either by defeating High Max or by spending an extensive amount of time farming for Nightmare Souls, either of which should familiarize yourself with the type of curve-balls that the game is expected to throw at you, and provide any intellegent gamer with an incentive to get equipped before facing the unfamiliar.
Any "intellegent" gamer would realize how easy it is to short-circuit the game's design when all that's needed to defeat High Max is one single weapon. If the game punishes you for doing that anyways, then it's a trap. Why put that there? Is the point to give us the option and then chastise the player for taking advantage of it? It's a case of mixed messages.
In the rare event that you are truly stuck in a level and not just giving up too easily (which outside of Gate's Lab can only happen on optional, alternate paths), the whole must-die thing? It's called Use Previous Data. Unless you're subject to X Collection's tomfoolery (if so, make a habit of saving), there is no excuse to not know the game's menu. I'll admit that removing the "stage already cleared" exit restriction would have been more intuitive, but Start/Select to the Title gets you the same result. X6 does not require suicide (which, if you are a completionist, X5 does).
Yes it does. If you unwittingly find the secret path in any stage before getting a weapon, after defeating Nightmare Zero, that will lead you to High Max. That not only means you have to kill yourself, but it also means you've wasted your time.
Finally, in before "the reploid with the part I need was killed", because that's a popular myth. The most valuable thing you can possibly lose is Speedster, which is useful ONLY for physics exploits that you have no reason to be attempting once you've got Hyper Dash.
True, but between needing Blaze Heatnix's Nightmare Effect AND Blizzard Wolfang's weapon to get the vital Jumper part, the whole ordeal is just bullshit.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcmpO3CDcOE[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMfsoTaqNYM[/youtube]
-
Treleus, read what you are responding to before you respond to it. Paragraphs 4, 7, and 8 contain outright false information that I already addressed.
Circular discussions aren't any fun if the circle is only two posts long. :P
BTW, a "minimalist run", such as you linked, by its very definition rules out alternate solutions solely because they are deemed by the player to be less efficient. Using that as a "requirement" argument and claiming such a requirement to be unreasonable is completely invalid: Minimalist runs are SUPPOSED to break the game's requirements and obstacles by any means necessary no matter how outlandish. That's what makes them minimal. If you honestly wrote a post that long without noticing how Shadow Armor is relevant to a spike situation, you have no business discussing X6's obstacles.
Any "intellegent" gamer would realize how easy it is to short-circuit the game's design when all that's needed to defeat High Max is one single weapon. If the game punishes you for doing that anyways, then it's a trap. Why put that there? Is the point to give us the option and then chastise the player for taking advantage of it? It's a case of mixed messages.
Yes, it is completely unexpected and unreasonable that there will be consequences and handicaps to deal with if you decide to skip 7/8 of a game that emphasizes collecting abilities to become stronger.
I get that not everyone LIKES the fact that X is knocking on Metroid's door with X6. Simply throwing the player into the wild, with numerous forks and shortcuts but nothing hand-holding your equipment, is a departure from the norm of the series, doubly so in light of the fact that its predecessor, X5, went the complete opposite way and was considerably more linear than X games normally are. Combining a more open power-up/obstacle/progression mentality with the more typical 2D stage select structure introduced a few bumps in the road that they honestly could have smoothed out a bit more, I'm aware of that. This in addition to the fact that there's a much wider than normal gap in power between minimal and fully equipped characters in X6 (also something that X5 dampened; 4th Armor is WAY too overpowered for a starting game item). But a preference in game direction is not a flaw, and to people who actually enjoy X6, the new spin is the whole damn point. Love it or hate it, X6 takes the quest to become stronger and the ability to find and plan your own way, two core themes of the X series, to a greater extreme than any other entry.
-
I like X6 for what it did... It's still flawed though. You bring up Metroid in your argument, but the design philosophy in those games is not the same thing. You can't get into an area in the first place if you're missing the necessary equipment in the first place in Metroid (for the most part). Such is not the case in X6. In X6, you can get into areas you are completely unable to traverse, and guess what? You can't backtrack out like you can in Metroid, effectively leading you to restart the area completely.
I wouldn't have an issue with these things if they were planned out properly. I wouldn't mind the optional area roadblocks as much if maybe more planning was done so that you would have to use the abilities needed in said optional area to reach it in the first place (such as in Metroid). I wouldn't mind if there was a way to get past the Gate stage nonsense while using the stage layout intelligently (such as in Metroid). Neither of these are the case... therefore the game is flawed.
If they had more time to work with, X6 would probably have had those kinks worked out and it would have been even better. But yeah... hindsight is 20/20 right? Fact of the matter is they didn't have much time, and here we are with a game that had high aspirations but fell flat a bit in the design phase. Such is the way things are with time constraints.
-
All in all, with the rushed dev time X6 had, it came out reasonably better than most rushed games fare. And IMO, it's still slightly better than X5, if only because X5 railroads you whenever it can. With boss order, with heart tanks, stopping you every five seconds so Alia can blab about the obvious. X6 fixed that [parasitic bomb]. I SHOULD be able to give all my heart tanks to X, or Zero if I want. And the chips were much better this time around. Some were brought over from X5, but the new ones were neat. Especially the 1 use per stage ones like Overdrive or the one that refills your health or something. (Overdrive+Ultimate Buster+Rapid Fire and maybe the speed shot= OH GOD MY PANTS, XTREME 2, IS THAT YOU?)
Also, I want to address the idea of X Air Dashing by default.
I never liked it. Maybe it's just because X1-6 he couldn't do it, but it just feels like it trivializes his Boot Upgrades. he already has the air dash, so it means that's one less feature the Boots are useful for. All they become useful for is the bonus mobility feature, like an upwards air dash, or a hover, or the glide. And i don't feel like the devs really did much to make the boot upgrades stand out any in X7 and 8. The high jump was interesting, and so was the jump attack, but they didnt add anything too special as far as mobility goes- and the Glide was totally forgettable, When a fully mobility upgraded Axl could hover for a pretty decent length.
X always seemed like in his default form, he should be landlocked. Zero get's the default air dash, and the double jump, but he's a close ranged fighter who needs mobility to get out of harm's way quickly. It works. X is a long ranged gunner though, who enemy placement aside- realistically wouldnt really need it. (of course in an ideal scenario, we would be able to aim X's buster in different directions)
So the Armors to me, feel like the way to give him bonus mobility like the air dash and whatever flavor of the day special mobility upgrade the game wants.
Of course though, i can see why they gave it to him, which is because Axl got a default air dash AND hover to boot. So if X didn't have something to balance him out with Axl and Zero's default mobility, he would become obsolete, having to rely on leg upgrades to be on par with the other two's mobility. That's the only reason i can see why they gave him a default air dash. But as far as it normally goes, I really don't feel like X should have it by default. It trivializes the leg upgrades which are supposed to give you that bonus mobility to more easily overcome challenges. And X6 gives you a starting armor to that end, with an air dash, which while nerfed in range over a regular air dash, is something to "make do", until you get that game's poster armor, which includes a much better dash. Much like X5 gives you a starting armor to "Make DO" until you get that game's armor. the difference being that the 4th armor is terribly gamebreaking to the game's difficulty level, since as Hypershell has said previously, it is basically the "End of Game Secret" minus the Giga Attack. You can charge weapons, you take reduced damage, can air dash, can hover, and have the all powerful Plasma Shot. a better way of balancing it would have been to instead give it the Stock Charge, (which seems to be the original armor's "default" buster upgrade, given it is the one that actually matches the rest of the Armor's color scheme) which while useful, is nowhere near as powerful. (specifically, it doesn't pass through enemies leaving plasma balls) And maybe getting rid of the hover.
By contrast however, the Falcon armor is ridiculously nerfed, having lost it's flight capability entirely, leaving a severely gimped Air Dash as a result, the Buster having lost the ability to pass through walls, yet still being a ridiculously thin shot, and not too powerful, and it balances that by leaving the Giga Attack, and giving it the ability to charge special weapons if I remember right. The X6 Falcon Armor is TRULY an example of something to "make do" with until you get the more powerful Armors specific to the Game.
Unfortunately the Blade Buster is kind of wonky, like a poor man's Plasma Shot that doesnt always seem to trigger. But then again, Blade's defining feature is mobility, not power- (I mean, [parasitic bomb], Blade Armor let's you sit there in midair indefinitely until you let go of the dash/jump button!) Power is Shadow's territory, much like Gaea was in X5. (to be honest, the armor themes are really just the same as X5- a mobility armor and a power armor that gives spike protection while taking special weapons away. only difference is Shadow let's you high jump and stick to the roof)
-
I agree with the idea that X shouldn't have the air-dash by default... which is why I think the levels should be designed with that in mind. That's all.
Do note I do like X6 more than X5. I just wish I could run through it with nothing like I do in any other X game that lets me. To this day, X2 is still my favourite for that sort of run (and tied with X1 for overall).
-
yeah, but you can't expect the game to accommodate what is essentially going out of the it's boundaries and what it expects is a natural progression from What you have in the intro stage, to having a longer lifebar, One of it's armors, and/or an upgrade chip or two, not to mention it's special weapons. Doing a minimalist run is essentially going outside the box, so to speak, since it is not something that was in mind when designing the Final areas and their difficulty. The 8 Normal stages you can Normal unarmored plain vanilla no items X all you want. It's possible. But you can't expect the final stages to let you do that. They are supposed to be the stages you get to once you are fully powered up, and the stages are designed accordingly. And even then, as previously stated, the game STARTS you with an armor. meaning it is telling you you WILL need it. That is what the game considers it's default.
Same goes for all the X games. I dont see nearly as many people complain about X1's forced Leg Capsule and forced Buster Upgrade. where, it IS absolutely MANDATORY and impossible to skip without using passwords/cheat codes.
And nobody complains about MM Classic forcing the use of special abilities in final stages either, when almost every single Classic MM game forces the use of special abilities in the final stages.
There is most DEFINITELY a precedent for Mega Man games forcing the use of upgrades in final stages. I Don't see how X6 should be held to different standards and criticized for it, when nobody ever seems to complain about other MM games doing it previously. The Classic MM games sometimes started you off with Rush Coil, or Rush Jet, and they were often mandatory for the final stages. Likewise, X6 STARTS you with the Falcon Armor, and there is a section in Gate's Lab where an Air Dash would be MOST convenient to cross it. But to it's credit, it DOES give you OTHER options, such as jumper, was it? or the special weapons exploit that lets you cross the gap by using Magma Blade, Ground Dash, and the pause menu to switch between them.
-
There is most DEFINITELY a precedent for Mega Man games forcing the use of upgrades in final stages. I Don't see how X6 should be held to different standards and criticized for it, when nobody ever seems to complain about other MM games doing it previously. The Classic MM games sometimes started you off with Rush Coil, or Rush Jet, and they were often mandatory for the final stages. Likewise, X6 STARTS you with the Falcon Armor, and there is a section in Gate's Lab where an Air Dash would be MOST convenient to cross it. But to it's credit, it DOES give you OTHER options, such as jumper, was it? or the special weapons exploit that lets you cross the gap by using Magma Blade, Ground Dash, and the pause menu to switch between them.
Because it gives you the option not to do so. The other games really do not.
-
I hate to be THAT GUY, but...
How in the hell could you people get so offtopic?
It amazes me, seriously. Like... in three our four posts, this thread derailed so much, I honestly believe, it's on collision course with moon.
-
Good, Volnutt needs the company.
It's just what happens when you mention X6. It's runner-up for the "everyone goes batshit crazy" award after Legends.
-
Doing a minimalist run is essentially going outside the box, so to speak, since it is not something that was in mind when designing the Final areas and their difficulty. The 8 Normal stages you can Normal unarmored plain vanilla no items X all you want. It's possible. But you can't expect the final stages to let you do that. They are supposed to be the stages you get to once you are fully powered up, and the stages are designed accordingly.
Same goes for all the X games. I dont see nearly as many people complain about X1's forced Leg Capsule and forced Buster Upgrade. where, it IS absolutely MANDATORY and impossible to skip without using passwords/cheat codes.
I just mentioned a game that lets you do it no problem... X2. And X3. And X4 (your favourite if I recall, unless that's changed over time). Even X5 can be done without anything, and you can quite easily start with an (overpowered) armour in that one as you are well aware. Would air-dashing make some of those levels easier? Well, yes. Can they be completed just fine without it? Yes. There's plenty of precedent for being able to complete the game with the bare minimum, so don't you go telling me that it isn't the case.
As for Classic... well [parasitic bomb], you have me there! It's not like you have no choice but to get all the Items/Rush Items in most of the games or anything... oh wait. Oh. You do. Unlike the thing in question I'm talking about here.
As for the derailing... hey, I was just saying that some games are flawed. I'm just explaining why I believe this to be the case.
-
FYI: In any "special weapon/item required" Classic scenario, it is unlikely but still possible to get stuck by simply running out of energy. It's something I've heard brought against MM3 in particular with its Rush segments/jumps.
Also, I agree with Flame on the whole "default air-dash trivializes the leg armor" thing. I mean, I realize that X looks kinda gimped when Zero and Axl default with it. But the alternative is that the leg armor's value is severely diminished, as whatever additional gimmick it offers probably won't compare to Zero's double jump or Axl's hover, making it a poor choice for a stand-alone upgrade.
I like X6 for what it did... It's still flawed though. You bring up Metroid in your argument, but the design philosophy in those games is not the same thing. You can't get into an area in the first place if you're missing the necessary equipment in the first place in Metroid (for the most part).
What exactly stops you from entering Turian with the Wave Beam? Hell, what INDICATES IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER that you're supposed to forsake it? In nearly any other area in the game, the Ice Beam is the pits.
The thing about NES games is that they were EXPECTED to screw you over through lack of information. It's just what they did. You know, 'cuz back then we felt special for buying magazines that explained it to us. Obviously that doesn't work for the modern 50 hour adventure. But a traditional X-series game, no matter how pretty its graphics, is short enough and contains enough checkpoints that I feel the occasional hiccup can be forgiven. Especially if the odds of running into a serious problem aren't all that great to begin with, and the likelihood of X6's "traps" actually catching you off guard is greatly exaggerated. See below.
Such is not the case in X6. In X6, you can get into areas you are completely unable to traverse, and guess what? You can't backtrack out like you can in Metroid, effectively leading you to restart the area completely.
Again, Gate's Lab 1 is the beginning of the stage, before any enemy appears, so no progress is realistically lost.
Gate's Lab 2 applies to two out of five (six if UA code is active) player/armor choices, and that's assuming you have none of the above-mentioned weapon/part solutions handy. Being well into the late-game, this is less likely. The only way it realistically catches you off-guard is false confidence if you're replaying after first clearing the level as Zero (since the trouble spot is X-exclusive). Unarmored X exists solely for bragging rights; you should NEVER be using him on your first playthrough. Shadow Armor requires clearing equally difficult jumps just to obtain its parts, so the value of Hyper Dash to one who has no air-dash or Ice Burst has already been taught within the game.
Speaking of tough jumps required to get a Shadow Armor part, Metal Shark Player's alternate route is clearly meant to be accessed with Hyper Dash (or Nova Strike), which in turn gets you across the pit. While it is POSSIBLE to access the alternate route without it, this requires not only careful timing but also decent knowledge of the game engine in terms of milking your dashes and jumps for maximum speed. In which case, use Wolfang's weapon for the pit.
Frankly, I'm amazed more people don't complain about Commander Yammark's alternate route. I mean, it's still an alternate, but it truly is the worst obstacle in the game. It's in a Nightmare effect area with HIGHLY disruptive effects (either the search lights or the rain can screw you), and with an access route that invites the Shadow Armor (dashing from the ceiling to reach the high route in the main stage). The only good news is that there's nothing beyond the pit other than the alt boss door, so if you do suicide your way out, then the only thing you missed is a few extra Nightmare Souls from Dynamo. Then again, for a first-timer, that can be discouraging when you make the return trip just to find that out.
If they had more time to work with, X6 would probably have had those kinks worked out and it would have been even better. But yeah... hindsight is 20/20 right? Fact of the matter is they didn't have much time, and here we are with a game that had high aspirations but fell flat a bit in the design phase. Such is the way things are with time constraints.
Unfortunately it's not always development time that causes that. We waited quite a bit for X5, and I could make the same poor-implementation arguments there. Actually, far worse so, in that while you can plan around X6's "flaws", there's a lot wrong with X5's level design that you simply cannot work around. ESPECIALLY the implementation of the Gaia Armor. It's virtually impossible to obtain without having visited all 8 Maverick stages already (and using "mad Zero skillz" alternative requires forsaking the Speedster for Jumper, something you should NEVER do in any X-centric playthrough because it cripples the Falcon Armor). This means that the first "new" stage you get to use it in, Zero Virus 1, is the very worst level in the entire game to be using it.
Do note I do like X6 more than X5. I just wish I could run through it with nothing like I do in any other X game that lets me. To this day, X2 is still my favourite for that sort of run (and tied with X1 for overall).
Honestly, while I'm not generally an "unarmored run" kind of guy, I like it best in X3. Mainly because I hate X3's buster so much... Also, charging a close-range Z-Saber in half the time isn't without its benefits.
-
Again, never said that the older games were without flaws. I'm just saying that there's flaws here too. It's probably because I think of game design a lot, to ensure whatever I'm working on doesn't fall into the pitfalls of older games I've played plenty of. Does it mean the games are bad? Not at all. But most could stand to be improved upon, some more than others.
I think more development time for X6 might have helped, since it at least had a lot of good foundations going. Everything else was rushed though, and it shows (such as in the examples you gave). I got caught in those traps so, so many times on my first playthrough, which doesn't exactly give a good first impression of the game sadly. As for X5... well... the foundations were poorer, I'll leave it at that :P
For the record, I find characters starting with the air-dash dumb. Any of them. But hey, what do I know.
-
I was actually defending all but Yammark. That's the only one that really irks me. But it is what it is, not everyone has to like it.
It just bugs me when people complain about X6 because they usually direct complaints to the level design. Truly, to those who like X6, the level design is the point. Ditto for High Max, as he places a greater emphasis on the character's growth than, well, anyone ever before (Vile tried this in X1, but the fact that you still need Zero to destroy his ride armor dampens it).
Most if not all of what X6 needs is more presentational than it is gameplay. Grammar, boss sprites, an Exit option that doesn't involve the Title Screen, and more streamlining to the Nightmare effect. It does NOT need randomization, as is often claimed by people who take poor box and marketing translations too literally (Scaravich does that anyway, it's nothing special). And I honestly would not touch level design.
-
When I was younger, I never really found myself blaming stage design or the game itself for my deaths or frustrations. I just thought to myself "Man, this game is hard!" and tried again. If I found myself at an impasse, then I retreated until I was properly equipped to handle the difficult boss/stage obstacle. And lets be honest, nobody uses Default X if they can help it when the games are new. Everyone rushes to get the games Armor so they can barrel through bosses and final stages. It's the Fun part about X5, that it starts you with a fun armor. Not as good in X6, but y'know, "I'll tale it anyway! better than default X!" Unarmored X runs or no items runs start once you've beaten the game millions of times and want to try something new.
-
I was actually defending all but Yammark.
Why does everyone hate Yammark? Because I went Soul Farming AFTER starting him first, it didn't bother me much as I adjusted to when and where the nightmare phenomenon will happen. In Metal Shark Player's case, I stay the [tornado fang] away from him when it's red, same with others. Simple hindrances (again, like Yammark) can be easily conquered if you played the stage first and going back to try the nightmare run.
Here's an interesting note about my first run: I didin't die ONCE on Yammark's stage on the first go. I'd like to thank timing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8oQtQ5hZXs) for that. If I died in a stage, I'd blame my impatience for that.
-
I respectfully disagree in regards to the level design in X6 then.
For me, there are two different types of deaths: fair and cheap. Fair is when you feel like it is your own fault for dying, when you see the dangers and fail through your own inability to overcome said dangers. Cheap is when you die to things you had no way of knowing what was going to happen (ie. lines of spikes right under you as you switch screens in MM9).
A lot of the segments in X6 feel cheap to me. Not everyone agrees clearly, but that's the way I see it. Sadly X6 isn't the only game to do this, nor will it be the last. Just ask some parts of MM9.
-
If that's the case most of the cheep death's started to wind up at Gate's Lab 1 due to t-bagging. As far as I remember, there were these wolves that you had to dodge as well as spikes to avoid. If you jump as the wolf is about to fire, it's pretty much insta-death as the shot would trigger knockback and kill you by spike.
-
If I recall though, can't you use Wolfang's weapon for the spike section in the first area?
I don't really remember if you can abuse invincibility time to climb up the spikes, since I dont remember if you CAN climb spikes outside of Shadow.
-
I think players are just more knowledgeable and strict about this stuff today (and OLD). Back then I didn't think about the design part of the game, I just wanted to beat the final boss and watch the credits. Today I look at something like Blaze Heatnix or Gigabolt Man-o-war, and I think, man... that is some lazy stage design.
Still, if I had made MM3, I wouldn't want people to get stuck without ammo, as small as that possibility is (I'm referring to Doc Gemini where you will literally be forced to reset if you don't have Rush ammo after Doc Flash... it's not like you just have to get a game over or farm ammo, you must reset the system).
And it's the same with X6 IMO. X6 to me is a unique situation where they did almost everything wrong, but the result is a challenging and interesting game. But again, if I was the director there, it would be a pretty obvious task to test run the game with only unarmored X and see if there were things I could tweak (like... no near impossible jumps).
-
If I recall though, can't you use Wolfang's weapon for the spike section in the first area?
Yes, you can, but it's all on timing if you don't kill the WOLF first.
-
http://www.rockman-corner.com/2013/01/capcom-svp-digital-poll-data-was-very.html
Sven says it was "very telling", and goes into detail a bit when in particular, he was asked about Mega Man.
-
Sven's usual semi-optimistic ambiguity. Hey, whatever it takes to get CoJ's heads out of their asses. But it's really not that complicated as they make it sound. Step 1: GET MEGA MAN OFF THE F*@#!ING MOON!
Look, Pandora's Box is open. Like it or not, everything they do is being compared to Legends. For half the fanbase, they pick up a phone game, or a free NES game, and the very first part of their impression is asking themselves, "Was this really more worthy of Capcom's effort than Legends 3?"
If they want the fanbase on their side, they need to do something about that. If they would rather ditch the old grouches and attract a new audience all by themselves... 8D I'm sorry, I can't say that with a straight face.
If that's the case most of the cheep death's started to wind up at Gate's Lab 1 due to t-bagging. As far as I remember, there were these wolves that you had to dodge as well as spikes to avoid. If you jump as the wolf is about to fire, it's pretty much insta-death as the shot would trigger knockback and kill you by spike.
Impossible. Your damage barrier protects you from spike death.
Hell, that's WHY the wolves are there. You can exploit them to guard against sloppy jumps, practically a necessity if you intend to climb using Blade's Mach Dash.
What the barrier DOESN'T do is allow you to grab/wall-kick on spikes. For that, you need Shadow Armor.
For me, there are two different types of deaths: fair and cheap. Fair is when you feel like it is your own fault for dying, when you see the dangers and fail through your own inability to overcome said dangers. Cheap is when you die to things you had no way of knowing what was going to happen (ie. lines of spikes right under you as you switch screens in MM9).
A lot of the segments in X6 feel cheap to me. Not everyone agrees clearly, but that's the way I see it. Sadly X6 isn't the only game to do this, nor will it be the last. Just ask some parts of MM9.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who notices MM9's cheapassery.
Thing about X-series games is that you have far greater aerial maneuverability, so you can more realistically react to obstacles in mid-fall.
-
So I suggested this on PD's corner, but ill ask it again here, since it's somewhat relevant.
What if Capcom US made a Mega Man game? I got the idea from how Sega did it with Sonic. Sonic 1 was Japanese, and while they made Sonic CD, Sega US made Sonic 2, and later 3&K, the three usually considered the best Sonic games ever, while CD... Sort of suffered mainly due to the System itself, and compared with the others really does stand out for it's chaotic level design (Which Im pretty sure was designed the way it was in order to make it far more difficult to maintain a top speed for the time travel gimmick)
So taking that idea, what if Capcom US got a Shot at MM? They (to me anyway) really seem to as a whole, care more about MM than Capcom JP does.
-
Can they even do that without the permission of Japcom?
-
Because the last time Capcom let the west make one of their games it turned out so well.
-
Can they even do that without the permission of Japcom?
Well of course not. Japcom- (I love it) would have to task them with it first. I'm just suggesting the idea.
Because the last time Capcom let the west make one of their games it turned out so well.
What, like DmC? Forgive me if I don't know which game you are referring to.
DmC isn't really being made by Capcom, it's being outsourced to NinjaTheory.
-
Because the last time Capcom let the west make one of their games it turned out so well.
I kinda forgot about that game. Which one was it?
There was also Final Fantasy Mystic Quest made in the US by Square, along with Sonic Spinball, considered to be one of the hardest in the Sonic series. But bloody fun.
If you guys can pick up a fan and release MMxSF can't you do let the US make the games?
-
IIRC, CoA did Anniversary Collection, which wasn't even a unique game but rather just emulation for a compilation. It, uh, could have turned out better. Granted, that was a long time ago, and I'm not sure what they've done more recently...
-
IIRC, CoA did Anniversary Collection, which wasn't even a unique game but rather just emulation for a compilation. It, uh, could have turned out better. Granted, that was a long time ago, and I'm not sure what they've done more recently...
That was outsourced to a relatively unknown company called 'Atomic Entertainment'. The reason MM7's credits got [tornado fang]'d up was because of them.
The "Bonus" you get for beating MM1 was the "Atomic Planet Credits".
-
I still really liked that game hub world thing with the doors. I thought that was cool.
I sorely missed something similar in X Collection.
-
Well, That's just a compilation. What I meant was a fully original game by CoA ala Sonic Spinball. But what was generous of them enough was to put the two Power Battles games on the disc, along with Battle & Chase, which was nice of them.
-
Battle and Chase was on X Collection.
-
I think he knew that and was just including that as an example, especially considering X Collection was already brought up.
-
Speaking of the collections, X Collection just felt so lacking compared to some of the finer details of Anniversary.
Then again, they didnt have the Complete Works re-releases to port over. Though I DO fancy they could have done something a tad bit more creative with the title screen... Even if it meant ripping off AC and having a little X sprite running around. But X Collection also just has a bit of weirdness surrounding it, particularly the "supposed" remastery that was going to happen, which I dont remember if it was ever confirmed or not.
-
also the whole "songs don't loop properly and will fade out after a given time before fading back in with a restart" thing
-
And the very I DO think, ordered way the music plays at the game select screen. It's either X6, X4 or X5's, but it has a definite order to it, invariably starting with X6's. (hardly the best that could have started, no? I was never TOO fond of X6's stage select theme)
Also the very bland title screen and very painfully ripped X8 Capcom animation sans Axl, which makes it look very odd, considering X and Zero were positioned the way they were BECAUSE of the third character. (IMO X5's X/Zero logo is far better, and it's not even animated)
-
Though I DO fancy they could have done something a tad bit more creative with the title screen..
wow its [tornado fang]ing nothing
-
wow its [tornado fang]ing nothing
to be fair, this is the guy who used to rage about zero's helment
-
I love how you are the one who always seems to brings that up.
Did it move you that profoundly?
But it's true. The title screen LOOKS well enough, but it just feels... I dunno, like more could have been done with it at least. It's so... Silent? Granted, the X titles do have that all in common. (Minus The Xtremes, X8, and Command Mission) At the sub menu... Though since X Collection has none, it leaves just the "press start" title menu alone.
-
In all fairness, the Xtreme2 and Command Mission title themes were pretty damn awesome. X8 probably would have been too if it wasn't played 20 other times in the game.
Most of them do have some cool intro music, though, it's just a question of whether or not they loop. X6 and X7 are about the only ones that are really silent. And even X7 has some atmospheric thing going, I think...
That was outsourced to a relatively unknown company called 'Atomic Entertainment'. The reason MM7's credits got [tornado fang]'d up was because of them.
The "Bonus" you get for beating MM1 was the "Atomic Planet Credits".
Outsourced because CoA themselves weren't up to the task. They were the ones in charge.
And, seriously, MM7 is nowhere near the worst thing to happen to the collection. MM8 turned out far worse. It'd be nice if Bass's ending music in Power Fighters didn't skip, either...
And I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY do not understand the point of basing 1-6 off of the Complete Works games only to cut the vast majority of the Complete Works content.
I sorely missed something similar in X Collection.
That much is true. Although, as memory serves, X Collection was done by a CoJ studio.
also the whole "songs don't loop properly and will fade out after a given time before fading back in with a restart" thing
Which is probably evidence that some remastery WAS intended. If they were simply emulating the SNES sound chip (which you DEFINITELY want to be doing as it significantly cuts the needed storage space compared to the alternative), there is absolutely no reason that should happen.
If anyone feels like refreshing my memory: How was MM7's music looping in Anniversary Collection?
-
The X Collection's convenient, but it came off pretty cheap.
To answer the question about starting off X with the air-dash: it would trivialize the leg upgrades if that was the best they could come up with. I think they could've come up with better mobility perks than hovering and gliding, at least for a few more games. I also think it would've been an interesting challenge to design levels around air-dashing and up-dashing, just like how Mega Man X introduced level design built around regular dashing. But the nice thing about that game's level design is that you could even beat it without the dash upgrade. I've never done it, but I think the fact that you can do that serves as a smooth transition from the classic games that preceded it, as well as a nice gesture.
Look, all I'm saying is X should've gotten a leg upgrade that lets him do something awesome, like a Sonic Rainboom or something. Call it the Rainbow Dash boots.
Also someone draw that armor, please.
-
Look, all I'm saying is X should've gotten a leg upgrade that lets him do something awesome, like a Sonic Rainboom or something. Call it the Rainbow Dash boots.
Ugh...
Anyway, regarding MM7's music loop...
Last I remember it was perfect.
-
The X Collection's convenient, but it came off pretty cheap.
To answer the question about starting off X with the air-dash: it would trivialize the leg upgrades if that was the best they could come up with. I think they could've come up with better mobility perks than hovering and gliding, at least for a few more games. I also think it would've been an interesting challenge to design levels around air-dashing and up-dashing, just like how Mega Man X introduced level design built around regular dashing. But the nice thing about that game's level design is that you could even beat it without the dash upgrade. I've never done it, but I think the fact that you can do that serves as a smooth transition from the classic games that preceded it, as well as a nice gesture.
Look, all I'm saying is X should've gotten a leg upgrade that lets him do something awesome, like a Sonic Rainboom or something. Call it the Rainbow Dash boots.
Also someone draw that armor, please.
Ahahahaha you're so funny *cough*pleasedieinafireandhaverockdroppedatyouandthengetblownawaybyatornado*cough*
We really need something like Wily Wars. Cause Wily Wars was a great compilation...outside the small Protoman sprite, but I digress.
-
That's harsh. I've never coughed at someone to die in a fire rock bomb tornado*. I'm not even sure what was funny because you quoted the whole post like a dummy.
*Also someone draw that too, please.
-
Look, all I'm saying is X should've gotten a leg upgrade that lets him do something awesome, like a Sonic Rainboom or something. Call it the Rainbow Dash boots.
Hermes' Shadow Dash was the best thing we got since the air-dash IMO.
-
It was ok as an ability. Nothing new, but alright. As far as visuals go, the Zero series did it better.
-
One of the few visual advantages that I will give the Zero series, yeah. Although Xtreme2's flashiness wasn't half bad.
-
MMXC's Flame Dash upgrade (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaAq6pkyqJo#t=1m00sec) is a pretty cool leg part. I can see it destroying small airborne enemies chasing you, or serving as a trap for someone to jump into.
Reminds me of the charged Fire Wheel in X2.
-
Doesn't have to be dash-related, of course. If we got a heavy-looking armour like Gaea again the legs part could be something like a Wario-buttstomp kind of effect...