RockmanPM Forums
Rockman & Community => Rockman Series => X => Topic started by: CyberXIII on June 26, 2009, 02:32:10 AM
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This decision to wage battle against the old world was made consciously.
In other words, we possess the power to go Maverick at will!
Is there something obvious that I missed, or what?
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Capcom [tornado fang]ing up story lines. It's like saying you can go insane at will XD
No seriously, i think he meant a reploid can want to wager war against humans, and not do do just because of infection of the sigma virus. Ie, can turn against humans because he wants to, without infection.
Or at least that's what I can guess haha.
Btw, i always wanted to ask; in the intro of RMX6, what was "and a Man is.." supposed to mean?
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I'm pretty sure it's all part of the script. just that some are more confusing than others.
"We can go maverick at will" basically says that he can do whatever the hell he wants, because he's without a restraining bolt of the X series.
Secondly, "and.. a Man is.." is just a cathprase from Capcom trying to be badass too.
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Secondly, "and.. a Man is.." is just a cathprase from Capcom trying to be badass too.
Well, it's dumb. Who was the Man btw?
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Capcom [tornado fang]ing up story lines. It's like saying you can go insane at will XD
No seriously, i think he meant a reploid can want to wager war against humans, and not do do just because of infection of the sigma virus. Ie, can turn against humans because he wants to, without infection.
That still doesn't make sense when you consider reploids were explicitly stated to have free will. Unless Lumine was talking about "Maverick" the way Repliforce was considered Maverick...
Then, of course, there's
I shall allow you to call me by that name, for I am indeed Sigma.
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Unless Lumine was talking about "Maverick" the way Repliforce was considered Maverick...
It's what I meant
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Reploids were allowed to have free will; just that the old models had a little bit of it, meaning they can't be bad in any way, so their AI was limited until Copyroids showed up.
"For I am indeed Sigma", is prolly just a wannabe copyroid trying to be badass too, cute capcom, cute.
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Second question. Why would anyone want to have a bunch of Reploids that could imitate Sigma? Lumine gave an in-story reason, but imitating a Ride Armor would have made more sense...
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Ask and you shall receive.
First off, whoever wanted a bunch of Reploids to imitate Sigma was either crazy, or just trying to be cool to impress X. instead, that pissed him off.
Second, Sigma was a powerful combat reploid, but was also a badass at the same time, and people respected him for that before "the virus" made him an evil badass. but, that was Cain's mistake in the first place, aye?
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Well, it's dumb. Who was the Man btw?
I always took this line as being foreshadowing to what Gate was up to in X6. He was the first face highlighted after that "dramatic tension" moment, and it makes sense that as the main antagonist, he's doing something unspeakable.
Just my crazy 2 cents. XD
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The first time I played X6, I thought Capcom was trying to imply that humans were going Maverick due to the virus, and I was thinking:
"Oh ho, here comes the 'X has to choose whether to be a Pacifist or actually wipe the floor with their butts for the greater good.'"
Nope. Just trying to be EDGY LOL
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Btw, i always wanted to ask; in the intro of RMX6, what was "and a Man is.." supposed to mean?
It's...Gates (I almost forgot his name).
Since well, he was the once that fiddled w/ Zero's thingy and went all, "HIS THINGY ROCKS!!!" and stuff.
makes sense to me.
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The first time I played X6, I thought Capcom was trying to imply that humans were going Maverick due to the virus, and I was thinking:
"Oh ho, here comes the 'X has to choose whether to be a Pacifist or actually wipe the floor with their butts for the greater good.'"
Nope. Just trying to be EDGY LOL
I kinda liked that this never happened though. Imagine how bad the fandom would be if X had to start killing retiring humans. XD
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he's doing something unspeakable.
He was getting exited over Zero's chest remains. Unless you prefer him to be exited about the Briefs remains.
Boy, that sounds wrong haha
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He was getting exited over Zero's chest remains. Unless you prefer him to be exited about the Briefs remains.
Boy, that sounds wrong haha
You did it this time, not me! XD
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Damn you RPM! XD
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LUMINE MEANS ALL REPLOIDS CAN NOW BECOME FINAL BOSSES INSTEAD OF SIGMA
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LUMINE MEANS ALL REPLOIDS CAN NOW BECOME FINAL BOSSES INSTEAD OF SIGMA
King Met as final boss in X9 now or GTFO. 8D
(Holy typos Batman!)
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LUMINE MEANS ALL REPLOIDS CAN NOW BECOME FINAL BOSSES INSTEAD OF SIGMA
LAYER IS SIGMA
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LAYER IS SIGMA
HOW CAN THAT BE? SHE AIN'T NO NEW MODEL COPYROID? MADNESS.
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MADNESS.
THIS..IS..SIGMAA
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LUMINE MEANS ALL REPLOIDS CAN NOW BECOME FINAL BOSSES INSTEAD OF SIGMA
And the life of the party shows up.
Back on topic, what was with the tentacles that popped outta Lumine and bitchslapped Axl?
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It's genticles! (sp?)
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It's genticles! (sp?)
No, they couldn't be. They only smacked him, they never entered his neck.
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Cookie for you! XD
No seriously, I don't know. But it's a very good question.
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That explains why he went down easy in X8, rather than having him go down quick in X7. genticals is basically Axl's weakness. THE GEM, the all powerful life source for reploids.
Seriously, the gem what powers the reploids are visible to every one in existance. it's thier bull's eye.
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Reploids were allowed to have free will; just that the old models had a little bit of it, meaning they can't be bad in any way, so their AI was limited until Copyroids showed up.
"For I am indeed Sigma", is prolly just a wannabe copyroid trying to be badass too, cute capcom, cute.
>>Implying that the Sigma you fought on the Moon wasn't the real Sigma.
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF O:<
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Well, I figured that out when Sigma showed up without a second form.
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Actually, the Sigma before the real one on the moon made you thought the game was done.. then Lumine came and screwed the plot. yeah, it's confusing. the real one was the one that was using the last of his energy. remember, he was emitting a green arua.. remember the virus you fought in X2 that shared the same color?
:P
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Actually, the Sigma before the real one on the moon made you thought the game was done.. then Lumine came and screwed the plot. yeah, it's confusing. the real one was the one that was using the last of his energy. remember, he was emitting a green arua.. remember the virus you fought in X2 that shared the same color?
:P
Of course, the virus was supposedly destroyed in back in X3; we all know how that turned out....
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Wow.... I'm amazed at how completely wrong you all interpreted Lumine's words...
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So then enlighten us instead of just trailing off?
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He would.
But you just wouldn't be able to understand.
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...
Even the X9 forum handles the topic of lumines words better.
All of the New Generation Reploids have Copy chips, yes?
They achieve transformation by utilizing the DNA of thousands upon thousands of old model Reploids that is embedded in their Copy Chips.
Thousands of old model Reploids.
Take a guess at who's included.
Thats right, He who is without hair. The bald one, Sigma. They have his DNA as well as all those other Reploids. And its been established that Sigma did not go Maverick because of the virus really, but because he realized that he was superior. the virus was just a means to an end. Therefore, new Gens inherit that way of thinking that made Sigma "Maverick."
They can literally become Sigma. Both Body and Mind.
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X: You're Lumine? You were alright?
Lumine: Alright, of course. I suppose you're all very satisfied being able to defeat Sigma. Thanks to which, up until now, plans have proceeded smoothly.
Axl: Weren't you taken and used by Sigma?
Lumine: Used? I'm afraid you're wrong. He just played his part. Awakening us, the new types, and changing the world.
Lumine: The copy chip was made from the analysis of various former Repliroids, and among them, naturally, Sigma is there too.
Lumine: It isn't the case that Sigma was by any means insane.
Sigma, of his own free will, rebelled against your world.
And us repliroids of the new generation, are able to become like Sigma at any time.
We, of our free will, are able to wage battle against your old world.
To put it in a way you understand...
We, of our free will, are able to become Irregular.
Zero: Just becoming Sigma can hardly be called evolution.
X: They all seem to be him.
Sigma: You may call me by that name, for I am indeed Sigma.
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X: You're Lumine? You were alright?
Lumine: Alright, of course. I suppose you're all very satisfied being able to defeat Sigma. Thanks to which, up until now, plans have proceeded smoothly.
Axl: Weren't you taken and used by Sigma?
Lumine: Used? I'm afraid you're wrong. He just played his part. Awakening us, the new types, and changing the world.
Lumine: The copy chip was made from the analysis of various former Repliroids, and among them, naturally, Sigma is there too.
Lumine: It isn't the case that Sigma was by any means insane.
Sigma, of his own free will, rebelled against your world.
And us repliroids of the new generation, are able to become like Sigma at any time.
We, of our free will, are able to wage battle against your old world.
To put it in a way you understand...
We, of our free will, are able to become Irregular.
Cue that awesome cutscene.
and yeah. Copy Sigma wasn't lying when he said he was Sigma. He was. In body and mind. Only he was still just copying him.
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Alia: They all seem to be him.
Fix'd. ;)
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Somebody said it, at least. >.>
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Wait. If the newgen reploids all have Siggy's DNA Data, then why didn't Axl go nuts?
@Zan: And wasn't the whole "of his own free will" thing a massive retcon? Sigma was always said to have been driven insane by the virus Zero gave him.
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Axl was a proto type and didn't have any other DNA when he was activated he had to shoot enimies with a copy shot to get other DNA. If I'm wrong please correct me.
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As far as I remember, you're right.
By the way, just want to add to the "And... a man is..." thing. I'm just going to say that I always thought that they were referring to RockMAN X/ MegaMAN X. Just throwing in my two cents.
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Still, saying you can become Maverick at will is like saying you can go Joker-class, batshit insane at a moment's notice, which is clearly not true for Reploids unless the Zero/ Sigma/ Maverick/ Nightmare Virus is involved.
It wasn't here, just Sigma's DNA data. (I refuse to simply call it DNA.)
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No, your right.
plus Hes no maverick, 'Heck, Hes a maverick hunter!"
no seriously, Axl is just a prototype. He does not have the DNA of thousands of old model Reploids on his copy chip. He has to obtain the DNA before he can use it. plus, that also limits his copy ability. He can only "copy" as in, he can copy forms, and weapons, and in X7, make a copy of an enemy's ability. (like a bee and stuff) Whereas Redips with Supra force metal for example, can achieve his God Redips transformation. and Lumine can turn into Seraph Lumine.
Posted on: June 29, 2009, 09:12:38 PM
Still, saying you can become Maverick at will is like saying you can go Joker-class, batshit insane at a moment's notice, which is clearly not true for Reploids unless the Zero/ Sigma/ Maverick/ Nightmare Virus is involved.
It wasn't here, just Sigma's DNA data. (I refuse to simply call it DNA.)
And cant you? if I wanted to, I could suddenly go outside and stab someone and kill them without any previous history of issues.
And Im perfectly sane. They have his DNA. Sigma went maverick of his own free will. The same way that there can be reploid burglars and criminals who are not viral or glitched. He began to, over time, after discussing X with Cain over the course of X's initial huntership, he realized after witnessing X's evolutionary potential, that Reploids, like X, can evolve past themselves. they can advance. However, Humans are a hindrance to this. So they must be eliminated for the sake of progress. This was something that he was thinking over for a while. and once he became one with the virus and gained immortality, He realized he could put his idea into motion without fear, for he could easily revive.
The virus was a means to an end.
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Exactly. What Flame said.
It is not simply that they can go 'maverick at Will'. They can simply choose to go against humanity without anything being wrong with them. Sigma himself would have turned against humanity given time. The Virus only sped up his realization. Nothing more. What Lumine stated was to make sense to the hunters. They being with Sigma's DNA Data, they have a connection with the way his mind developed. And with that connection they are able to understand his philosophy. And agree with it, and act upon it. As if they were Sigma themselves. Stated by Alia, and previously posted...
@Zan: And wasn't the whole "of his own free will" thing a massive retcon? Sigma was always said to have been driven insane by the virus Zero gave him.
He would have ultimately rebelled with or without the Virus. It only made his rebellion more agreeable and one sided for his philosophy. Sigma didn't go insane and wasn't a retcon. That is how his character was.
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It wasnt a retcon. it was just adding to the already presented story.
in X1 they never gave a reason for Sigma going maverick. He just eventually rebelled. it wasnt until the Virus' presence was revealed, and X4, that people began to think that the virus made him maverick. it was just assumption. They saw that he got the virus from the evil Zero, and figured that was why he went evil. they never really presented a solid reason for Sigma's rebellion. also, remember X8.
"Welcome Maverick Hunter... Its good to see you again X... - ...Your dedication to what you referred to as "justice" was what first got me thinking... I realized the Imperfections of this world, and decided I must change it."
"Zero... Who would've imagined wed cross paths at the end of the world... The Moment your Virus entered my system, the seed had been planted..."
The seed is not Sigma's going maverick, but the but what he means is that it gave Sigma the ability to put his plan into motion.
then in maverick Hunter X, they were able to present more with the story as they could use cut scenes and were able to make the Day of Sigma.
in X1, they were limited, and crammed the info they could not present in game into the booklet. and even then there were underlying things that were not included. things that wer eonly delved into in X8 and Maverick Hunter X.
The reason Sigma went Maverick.
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By the way, just want to add to the "And... a man is..." thing.
a miserable little pile of secrets
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There's a strong indication that the Virus affected his psyche to some degree in the sourcebook notion that "the evil virus' hold over him was complete' and "a darkness began to grow in his heart." But all that is a vague oversimplification of the truth.
Still, saying you can become Maverick at will is like saying you can go Joker-class, batshit insane at a moment's notice, which is clearly not true for Reploids unless the Zero/ Sigma/ Maverick/ Nightmare Virus is involved.
The point is something far deeper than that. It isn't about insanity at all. Lumine after all clearly emphasizes that Sigma is sane.
The first key point is that their viral immunity is absolute; they can not go irregular.
The second key point is that they have Sigma's data, therefore they can literally become like Sigma. Despite popular assumption, Sigma of his own free will decided to rebel against the old world.
Irregular Hunter X further elaborates the concept in that both VAVA with his glitched electronic brain too can become an irregular of his own free will. Placing him and Sigma as opposites of X who has the desired ability of worrying and limitless potential. Worrying which equals compassion, which Sigma does not have. Sigma has no moral restrictions, but he's perfectly sane. This concept is further alluded to in the ZX-series in regards to the DASH tie in.
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There's a strong indication that the Virus affected his psyche to some degree in the sourcebook notion that "the evil virus' hold over him was complete' and "a darkness began to grow in his heart." But all that is a vague oversimplification of the truth.
The point is something far deeper than that. It isn't about insanity at all. Lumine after all clearly emphasizes that Sigma is sane.
The first key point is that their viral immunity is absolute; they can not go irregular.
The second key point is that they have Sigma's data, therefore they can literally become like Sigma. Despite popular assumption, Sigma of his own free will decided to rebel against the old world.
Irregular Hunter X further elaborates the concept in that both VAVA with his glitched electronic brain too can become an irregular of his own free will. Placing him and Sigma as opposites of X who has the desired ability of worrying and limitless potential. Worrying which equals compassion, which Sigma does not have. Sigma has no moral restrictions, but he's perfectly sane. This concept is further alluded to in the ZX-series in regards to the DASH tie in.
Okay...
1. You say that Sigma was sane in X8. He was not. Every time Siggy transferred himself to a new body, he got crazier. Compare X1's Original Sigma to X6's Reborn Sigma.
2. You say the newgen reploids cannot go irregular. The events of X8 disprove this; Lumine himself said that they can do so at will.
3. You say that they have Sigma of his own free will rebelled against humanity; he only did so after being corrupted with the program that made Zero go nuts to begin with. That's not free will; that's being corrupted into madness.
4. Disregarding the fact the IHX was a retcon, VAVA wasn't completely sane either; his only real goal was his obsession with X. He rebelled of his own free will, yes, but he did so the same way Repliforce did.
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Okay...
1. You say that Sigma was sane in X8. He was not. Every time Siggy transferred himself to a new body, he got crazier. Compare X1's Original Sigma to X6's Reborn Sigma.
2. You say the newgen reploids cannot go irregular. The events of X8 disprove this; Lumine himself said that they can do so at will.
3. You say that they have Sigma of his own free will rebelled against humanity; he only did so after being corrupted with the program that made Zero go nuts to begin with. That's not free will; that's being corrupted into madness.
4. Disregarding the fact the IHX was a retcon, VAVA wasn't completely sane either; his only real goal was his obsession with X. He rebelled of his own free will, yes, but he did so the same way Repliforce did.
You cannot compare X6's sigma, as he was barely alive. He was incomplete, and so was his consciousness. Or have you not noticed his zombie design in the game? He was evil. doesnt mean he was insane. plus, X7 and 8 prove he is more than capable of rational intelligent thought. the kind that insane peoiple cannot do. He is a cunning mastermind.
Newgens cannot go irregular because of the Sigma virus. they go irregular because Sigma and his DNA is already inside them from the start.
Sigma had already been thinking about Reploids vs Humans for a while. The virus simply gave him the power to put his vision into effect.
maverick Hunter X is not a retcon.
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Okay...
1. You say that Sigma was sane in X8. He was not. Every time Siggy transferred himself to a new body, he got crazier. Compare X1's Original Sigma to X6's Reborn Sigma.
2. You say the newgen reploids cannot go irregular. The events of X8 disprove this; Lumine himself said that they can do so at will.
3. You say that they have Sigma of his own free will rebelled against humanity; he only did so after being corrupted with the program that made Zero go nuts to begin with. That's not free will; that's being corrupted into madness.
4. Disregarding the fact the IHX was a retcon, VAVA wasn't completely sane either; his only real goal was his obsession with X. He rebelled of his own free will, yes, but he did so the same way Repliforce did.
1: He was fully sane in X8. He made the conscious decision to sacrifice his immortality for power. Hence his form. He is fully capable of free thinking, rationalization and conceptions. He merely was resurrected in X6, and wasn't fully revived. Hence his 'evil instinct' ploy.
2: New Gens can choose to ignore their 'Laws' and go against humanity without anything being wrong. And since New Gens are more refined and Virus protected, it is their decisions that classify them as Maverick or not. Not by an ailment.
3: He was coaxed by Cain's discussions of what X possesses. He was shammed in battle by his near defeat by Zero. He was rationalizing that Humans are in they way of reploid progression. He would have rebelled regardless of the Virus infection or not. The Virus is more 'one sided' and therefor it caused him to reach his conclusion much faster.
4: Vile was sane. In the sense for his condition would allow. He possessed an Electronic Brain Glitch. An error within his mental processor that caused him to enjoy destruction. And collateral damage wasn't exactly looked highly upon. Thus he was deemed a Maverick due to his hunger for destruction. His lust for X is to destroy him. Because of the Glory X received that Vile felt he was neglected. He didn't exactly rebel, he simply followed his desires. He fought for only himself.
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Actually, He wasnt deemed a Maverick for that. he was deemed a Maverick because he seemingly went with Sigma when he rebelled. MHX, and Iwamoto's manga's show that he didn't go with Sigma because he believed in Sigma's ideas, or because he had the virus, But because Sigma made the deal that if he helped him and went with him, he'd get to destroy X and fulfill that lust of his.
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Could have sworn that he would have been deemed a Maverick had he not been 'bailed' from jail... My mistake.
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He was borderline Maverick. The hunters really didn't know what to do with him Because sure, he got the job done... rest assured, the enemy was in little pieces, but, so was everything within the vicinity. Be it building or civilian. Which is why he was always in trouble. he was just too destructive, and caused ruckuses. In MHX, he was put in a cell for what he did. He most likely caused a bid uproar again, and was doing his time for it. most likely gonna get sentenced later.
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1. You say that Sigma was sane in X8. He was not. Every time Siggy transferred himself to a new body, he got crazier. Compare X1's Original Sigma to X6's Reborn Sigma.
"It is not the case that Sigma was by any means insane."
2. You say the newgen reploids cannot go irregular. The events of X8 disprove this; Lumine himself said that they can do so at will.
Lumine is completely oversimplifying the truth when he says that, he is deliberately talking to the hunters on their terms, using their dogma of irregularity. Before that point, everyone vehemently disagrees with that label. And being 'irregular' is just that, a label; that label is relative. The label has sometimes with pride been applied to themselves, but it has also with detest been applied to the current world order. These same themes re-appear throughout the entire Rockman series.
Quotes on the matter:
LUMINE: We new generation Reploids enjoy complete and total immunity
to all viruses... So even copying something as dangerous as Sigma provides no
risk.
OPTIC SUNFLOWER: Berserk? I don't think so. We may not be the good guys, but
we're no monsters. No one has a right to put a stop to our plans!
OPTIC SUNFLOWER: No one can control us. You old models cannot even begin to
comprehend my master's - OUR - greatness!
DARK MANTIS: You've gotta be kidding me. We new generation Reploids can't go
Maverick.
DARK MANTIS: Hey there, X... Looks like you can't accept the fact that we're
not Mavericks.
DARK MANTIS: What exactly is controlling YOU, X? Hm? Your precious "justice"?
Is that it?
GRAVITY ANTONION: Maverick? Once again, you attach labels to me. What arrogance!
GRAVITY ANTONION: My master is not incorrect in his philosophy.
GRAVITY ANTONION: And the thought that it is this world that is evil has never
crossed your mind? Oh, forget it... If you get in my way, I'll destroy you!
GIGAVOLT MAN-O-WAR: I'm no Maverick. Who are you, anyway?
GIGAVOLT MAN-O-WAR: I'm no Maverick... I'm not doing anything wrong... I'm work-
ing hard to realize my master's dream of a new world.
ZERO: Hmpf. I could never understand the ideals of Maverick slime!
AVALANCHE YETI: You truly are an old model, aren't you? You can't change the
world with that thinking.
BURN ROOSTER: This is no ordinary riot. This is revenge! Revenge for all the
Reploids you labeled Mavericks and threw onto this scrap heap!
BURN ROOSTER: This is what you mean when you speak of justice? It's you who
should be scrapped! There's no place for Reploids like you in the new world we
will create!
BURN ROOSTER: Hmpf. All I'm doing is listening to the cries of pain... The
cries of all the Reploids you've sent here here because you decided they were
Mavericks.
ZERO: If you can hear all that, I guess that means you're a Maverick too, huh?
BURN ROOSTER: Ha! You'll soon realize who's wrong and who's right in this
struggle.
LUMINE: To put it in a way you'd understand, we of our own free will can become irregulars.
3. You say that they have Sigma of his own free will rebelled against humanity; he only did so after being corrupted with the program that made Zero go nuts to begin with. That's not free will; that's being corrupted into madness.
Why are we disagreeing with factual statements?...
Lumine: It isn't the case that Sigma was by any means insane.
Lumine: Sigma, of his own free will, rebelled against your world.
Lumine: And us repliroids of the new generation, are able to become like Sigma at any time.
Lumine: The copy chip was made from the analysis of various former Repliroids, and among them, naturally, Sigma is there too.
The data of Sigma's original body gives the New Generation the ability to become like Sigma; they think like he does.
Sigma did not go nuts thanks to the Virus, that's a fan assumption. Being infected just made him a new existence as a malicious virus program. Sigma's way of thinking never changed, he simply acquired the means to act on his philosophy. Sigma's philosophy is a result of him being what who he is and learning of the world. As a man without worrying, compassion, hesistation, as a man of logic, that is the conclusion he came up with.
Sigma's philosophy was first formed by seeing X's justice, before he ever came into came into contact with Zero he already began to think about the imperfections of the world. That philosophy is what binds the new generation.
Sigma's pride and self confidence were tattered by Zero. Sigma subsequently desired more power, he desired to evolve. Combined with the imperfections of this world, he realized that humanity was holding back Repliroid progress.
Finally, hearing of X's ability to worry, Sigma learns of limitless evolutionary potential, the power to exceed all Repliroids. But in an ironic twist, it is Sigma that does not worry, he lacks compassion and therefore does not hesitate. All aspects that make him into an irregular from the very start are the same aspects that make limitless potential so far from his grasp.
And thus begins the war of progress, instigated by the Sigma Virus that can turn any Repliroid into an irregular.
4. Disregarding the fact the IHX was a retcon, VAVA wasn't completely sane either; his only real goal was his obsession with X. He rebelled of his own free will, yes, but he did so the same way Repliforce did.
VAVA and Repliforce are completely different. VAVA from the start is the anti-thesis to X, enjoying violence thanks to the defect on his brain whereas X is a paradoxical pacifist hero because of the circuitry in his brain overworking itself. VAVA never was part of society, VAVA never had any inhibitions, he is just trying to hold up the facade of regularity so that he can destroy Repliroids as an Irregular Hunter. It is his choice to discard this disguise and go irregular; it is for this reason that he go irregular of his own free will/of his own accord. Sigma and the New Generation are the same; they can decide to stay normal as long as they want, or they can accept their real selves and decide to become irregulars.
Repliforce on the other hand is an army for the human government that tried their best to please humans. However, thanks to their social situation; between their strong allegiance to the humans, their pride and Sigma's manipulation, the label of irregularity was forced upon them.
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It feels like we're running in circles here. You're speaking in terms of X8, I'm looking at the whole series.
Lumine kept saying Sigma was sane. In X8, granted, he was somewhat lucid (at least in the English version, but in the Japanese: HOROBE! HOROBE HOROBE HOROBE HOROBEEEE!), but in X6 he was downright psychotic (Zombie design not withstanding). X4's Sigma wasn't all that sane either: his entire plan was to effectively blow up the world with Final Weapon.
Plus, let's look at his big plan in X8: "Hey VAVA/Vile, let's kidnap the director of a project that's going to make a really big elevator to the moon!" How exactly was that going to help the human race? (The project, not Sigma's meddling.)
Saying the newgen reploids can think like him is like saying someone can think like Norman Osborn at any given moment.
Oh, and as for the mavericks-do you know how many clearly insane people deny their own craziness? Plus, some of the greatest geniuses in the world are at least eccentric.
This discussion also raises the question of how much Lumine knew about the previous rebellions....
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Lumine kept saying Sigma was sane. In X8, granted, he was somewhat lucid (at least in the English version, but in the Japanese: HOROBE! HOROBE HOROBE HOROBE HOROBEEEE!), but in X6 he was downright psychotic (Zombie design not withstanding). X4's Sigma wasn't all that sane either: his entire plan was to effectively blow up the world with Final Weapon.
X6 he was barely conscious. As he wasn't even fully 'REVIVED'. He was driven by instinct since his emotions weren't revived at that point. X4, the Final Weapon wouldn't have blown up the World. it would have destroyed most of the Human portion. Is Sigma was the Weapon, he could trigger anyone he seen fit which would have given him a nice piece of leverage to make people follow him...
Plus, let's look at his big plan in X8: "Hey VAVA/Vile, let's kidnap the director of a project that's going to make a really big elevator to the moon!" How exactly was that going to help the human race?
The Orbital Elevator would eventually have been able to move people to outer planets. It would have been more of a possibility. Taking over said project for personal gain halts this portion.
Saying the newgen reploids can think like him is like saying someone can think like Norman Osborn at any given moment.
You are not quite following. It is 'Maverick' as in a Label. They can freely choose to follow their orders or go against them. Since the NEW GENS are meant for the Orbital Elevator projects, they can choose to aid the humans in reaching new possible homes/creating new homes or to deny that chance and remain them bound to a planet already scared by attempted human genocide.
h, and as for the mavericks-do you know how many clearly insane people deny their own craziness? Plus, some of the greatest geniuses in the world are at least eccentric.
A Crazy person doesn't know they are crazy. That is left to those spectating their decisions. Plus Genius/insane has a fine line of separation...
This discussion also raises the question of how much Lumine knew about the previous rebellions....
Having Sigma DNA, it wouldn't have been hard to look into Sigma's previous efforts. Anything that can be connected to him, since they agree with his philosophy essentially... Quite possible Limune knew quite a bit.
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Wasn't the original definition of a maverick a reploid with circuitry malfunctions in their brain or whatever? Doesn't that make Vile the poster boy for mavericks what with his [tornado fang]'d up brain?
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Basically, yes. Though it is more alike to Irregular. behaving erratically in methods that can harm humans, destroy property needlessly, and such. Vile would have been classified as a Maverick if he was present for his Hunter Trial. But following Sigma, he was deemed Maverick because he followed a Reploid who's actions harmed citizens/civilians and collateral damage.
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Wasn't the original definition of a maverick a reploid with circuitry malfunctions in their brain or whatever?
It was like that until the Sigma Virus came along.
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Lumine kept saying Sigma was sane. In X8, granted, he was somewhat lucid (at least in the English version, but in the Japanese: HOROBE! HOROBE HOROBE HOROBE HOROBEEEE!), but in X6 he was downright psychotic (Zombie design not withstanding). X4's Sigma wasn't all that sane either: his entire plan was to effectively blow up the world with Final Weapon.
You really need to pay more attention to posts.
You cannot compare X6's sigma, as he was barely alive. He was incomplete, and so was his consciousness. Or have you not noticed his zombie design in the game?
Zombie design notwithstanding, He was still just revived from the brink of his true death. And was not finished as Gate never got the chance to fully finish him up.
In X5 Sigma Died for real. He did not have enough Virus, and could not trigger his revival program. He for all intents and purposes, died for good. If it weren't for Gate, He probably would have stayed that way.
X: You dont seem to complete Sigma!
(Ill wait on Zan for the Japanese in game dialogue since the english one was no good...)
also, Horobe! Its called in fight dialogue. Just like X yelling STOP IT! when he fires his buster in X7. or Zeros comments in CM.
"You're finished..."
also, so in cases like Vile and New Gens, its basically similar to being in the closet?
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X6 he was barely conscious. As he wasn't even fully 'REVIVED'. He was driven by instinct since his emotions weren't revived at that point. X4, the Final Weapon wouldn't have blown up the World. it would have destroyed most of the Human portion. Is Sigma was the Weapon, he could trigger anyone he seen fit which would have given him a nice piece of leverage to make people follow him...
The Orbital Elevator would eventually have been able to move people to outer planets. It would have been more of a possibility. Taking over said project for personal gain halts this portion.
You are not quite following. It is 'Maverick' as in a Label. They can freely choose to follow their orders or go against them. Since the NEW GENS are meant for the Orbital Elevator projects, they can choose to aid the humans in reaching new possible homes/creating new homes or to deny that chance and remain them bound to a planet already scared by attempted human genocide.
A Crazy person doesn't know they are crazy. That is left to those spectating their decisions. Plus Genius/insane has a fine line of separation...
Having Sigma DNA, it wouldn't have been hard to look into Sigma's previous efforts. Anything that can be connected to him, since they agree with his philosophy essentially... Quite possible Limune knew quite a bit.
1. Gate says outright that he "brought back the evil Sigma", and that he knew full well that as treacherous as Sigma was, he( Gate) might be destroyed. That implies he had brought back the cunning, conniving Sigma from the previous 5 games.
2. Unless they turned the Elevator into a far more gigantic Teleporter, the interplanetary travel thing wouldn't pan out, what with orbit and distance involved.
3. Your description of the Maverick label sounds more like the Repliroid label in general. Weren't they designed with the ability to have free will and choose to follow humanity willingly in the first place?
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1. Gate says outright that he "brought back the evil Sigma", and that he knew full well that as treacherous as Sigma was, he( Gate) might be destroyed. That implies he had brought back the cunning, conniving Sigma from the previous 5 games.
1: Gate does say he brought him back. But did he say how much of him? He was dead. DEAD... Gate resurrected him after study of Zero's DNA data. He didn't have time to fully REVIVE Sigma. Just simply Resurrect him in his basic operating settings. Hence his 'INSTINCT' to fight without a fully developed consciousness.
2. Unless they turned the Elevator into a far more gigantic Teleporter, the interplanetary travel thing wouldn't pan out, what with orbit and distance involved.
2: Doesn't matter. The Orbital Elevator is a method to breach the Atmosphere and from there designate trajectory. If the Tower itself was assumed in control, then the whole idea is naught...
3. Your description of the Maverick label sounds more like the Repliroid label in general. Weren't they designed with the ability to have free will and choose to follow humanity willingly in the first place?
3: They have limited 'free will'. They certainly have the potential, with the Neg Gens proving this. But they also were not fully granted full free will. This would reflect upon them and would create devastating problems if they decided to act against humans. In other words, many more and different Sigma's. They do possess it as potential, but not fully granted such doe to the high risk they possess...
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also, so in cases like Vile and New Gens, its basically similar to being in the closet?
Lumine was pretty homo..
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1. Gate says outright that he "brought back the evil Sigma", and that he knew full well that as treacherous as Sigma was, he( Gate) might be destroyed. That implies he had brought back the cunning, conniving Sigma from the previous 5 games.
think of it this way. You make a deal with the devil to "bring back" your lover. he says, I have brought back your beloved lover, and plls the curtains aside, revealing a decayed mindless Zombie that attacks you and eats you alive.
he still "brought" the person back, no? He most certainly did. But there was no specification of what state of being.
Gate revived Sigma, But Sigma was barely conscious. He was still regaining his bearings, so to speak. He was also incomplete. if you look at his sprite, He activated before his body's construction was finished. hell, his motor functions weren't fully finished either. and his mind was just ripped from the afterlife. He was the equivalent of a Zombie. and His defeat by X and Zero gave him the time to fully recover from X5. in X7, he is back to his usual self. And X7 takes place quite some time after X6. I would say a few years, even. It gave Sigma the proper R&R that he was not able to get before being activated by Gate.
also, Reploids cold all go maverick at will. But they have Morals and beliefs and the 3 laws that are all in the back of their mind, keeping them in check. Its the same way you would not suddenly go out into the street stark naked. You have morals and beliefs imposed by society. However, there are also people that are just inherently evil. They are just born that way. Mavericks like Vile and any reploid who would just become a maverick on a dime without any major problems, Such as Sigma, is like that. they are in the closet about their true nature, and abide by societies norms until they accept who and what they truly are, and go "Maverick."
Vile can be excused due to his Mental instability caused by a glitch. If it were not for that Glitch, you might never have seen him in X1. the glitch was what alowed him to be so destructive, regardless of society. Sigma approached him and offered him the chance to defeat X and cause as much destruction as he wanted if he joined him. Vile, agreed.
Posted on: July 04, 2009, 01:53:15 AM
Lumine was pretty homo..
not like that. Im comparing. They are in the closet about their maverickness.
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Okay...
1. You say that Sigma was sane in X8. He was not. Every time Siggy transferred himself to a new body, he got crazier. Compare X1's Original Sigma to X6's Reborn Sigma.
I am only going to address this one due to the -popular- misconception of what the term "psychosis" refers to as well as X mislabeling Sigma an unimaginable amount of times, as well as fans of the series. (Psychosis = insanity)
Insanity does not by any means refer to the act of taking lives outside of the laws or standards of a certain living period. It means that an action is taken from a deep misunderstanding of what truly is and reacting off the misunderstanding/ignorance without your mind going into deeper detail of your actions/caring to the least.
In fact. Here's a copy and paste of the very definition of insanity.
1: a deranged state of the mind usually occurring as a specific disorder (as schizophrenia)
From what is shown in Maverick Hunter X, Sigma did not go through anything of the sort as schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, or show an actual signs of psychosis. Sigma plotted, planned, and when he got the chance, he took time to -listen- and understand from Dr. Cain's words about X. Needless to say, someone who's suffering from insanity would not bother to try and understand anything. They would simply react. From what is shown in X7 the virus doesn't exactly turn you into a raving lunatic as the Hyena showed, he was in extreme pain and was at a loss for logical actions. (I.E, thinking that killing Zero, X, Axl who showed up right when he started suffering would stop it.) And before anything is said, illogical decisions or actions are usually made/done when someone is under unimaginable pain.
2: such unsoundness of mind or lack of understanding as prevents one from having the mental capacity required by law to enter into a particular relationship, status, or transaction or as removes one from criminal or civil responsibility
Sigma understood every law, every nook and cranny, analyzed it and was not satisfied with the current state of the world or popular opinion. His constant debates with Cain are proof of this. He has the mental capacity to understand the law, he just doesn't see why he should be bound by the laws and not create his own utopia. Which, when you think back on modern history, seems to be the way that -every rebel faction in time felt.- Be they on ethical right or wrong.
3 a: extreme folly or unreasonableness b: something utterly foolish or unreasonable
Now, this is the one where proves Sigma is not insane. When you consider the positions Reploids are placed in, being servants for an obviously weaker species, forced to slaughter their own on a single command or order, to work endlessly with seeing so little as enough to keep themselves either functioning until their use is over, upgrading or maintaining weaponry, or just for the satisfaction of their human creators how can you not go: "Okay.. I see where they were going with this."
Be whatever title they were given, they were humanity's slaves in the X series more than companions. Humanity couldn't do half of the labor they put the reploids through, fight the wars they forced the reploids to fight or last as long as their creations could. Needless to say, it'd be completely unbelievable for there to not be rebellions under those conditions. Or even then, understanding why there are rebellions. They've created a race that is self-efficent, self reproducing by using the same machines to make themselves, and powerful that the question of why they're still scrubbing the back fat of Trucker-Joe comes to mind.
Which is where Sigma's rebellion comes in, and by all means, it's logical. Namely under the terms of "Survival of the fittest". And in a world where robots can do all the work? I can just guess humanity is just about 80% body fat at that point. While him leveling a city with missiles is unethical, it's something that is logical in the sense of "sacrifice for the greater good." It sends out a message to your enemies that you are not--and you will not play games with them. That you -will- wage war like they've never seen.
When you consider it, Lumine was very right to say that Sigma was perfectly sane, both logically and literally by means of definition of "insanity". What was the cause of it was the sub-consciously, there was his decision to rebel under those conditions. Which, if you took another race of people and have them bossed around by one race--well, we've all seen that outcome in history. :P
Insane does not fit the bill for a description, if anything Sigma woud earn the title of being void of all moral ethics. X6 being the only exception due to Gate not being done with repairs. While vague, he could have been unstable due to not being completed.
Edit: And for the sake of making it simple, here's differences in insanity and completely unethical in comics.
Carnage: INSANE. Killing random bystanders because--well, he was literally bored.
Punisher: Unethical. Killing people who are dangerous, and avoiding the very justice he stands by and chased by.
Scarecrow: INSANE. Killing because he gets a kick out of how people react to their deepest fears and nightmares, and jotting down the information for further use.
Joker: Extremely unethical. He is...literally too sane to the point where it effects him in negative ways. Joker causes carnage in an experiment to test humanity in it's darkest moments, revealing--to all--that while they may think they are not capable of something, doing one little action and taking one life will push them into madness. And for all their plans, one random act will shatter them all.
Every time the Joker did something, and people acted how he expected them to act, proved his lack of insanity--under the definition, that he understood the situation, reactions, and causes.
Needless to say, this actions weren't for his own benefit but mainly to test humanity of their claims.
Being a murderer or being a mass murderer does not make you insane.
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*Claps*
that was amazing.
Topic over.
could have been though? That was the SOLE reason he was so far out there in X6.
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How exactly was that going to help the human race? (The project, not Sigma's meddling.)
The plan wasn't Sigma's, the plan was humanity's. What relevance does it hold in discussing Sigma's state of mind?
This is a dying world, the Orbital Elevator is the route to space, allowing transportation between Earth and the moon's surface. By using the Orbital Elevator, the biggest danger of breaking through the atmosphere is already avoided.
and as for the mavericks-do you know how many clearly insane people deny their own craziness? Plus, some of the greatest geniuses in the world are at least eccentric.
3. Your description of the Maverick label sounds more like the Repliroid label in general. Weren't they designed with the ability to have free will and choose to follow humanity willingly in the first place?
Being built with free will does not at all implicate freedom, you are bound by the rules of reality, society and your own conscience.
The question is here, what is truly free? Following society, following the inhibition that is the conscience? Or is true freedom breaking away from society and throwing away the inhibition that is the conscience in favor of your true self?
Those like Sigma propose the strong question whether or not someone like X, who worries, has a heart, has compassion, as someone who denies change, is the true irregular. Likewise, those more like X consider the likes of Sigma who has no conscience, no compassion, wishes to change the world by destroying the current society, as the true irregular.
Those 'evil' apply the label of irregular to those 'good', whereas those 'good' apply the label of irregular to those 'evil'. But who determines who is evil and who is good? In that same line of thought, who determines who is sane and who is insane? Who is irregular and who is regular?
--
"Maverick? You don't really think that's the case, do you? That's why
you can't finish me off, right? You don't have it in you..."
"Who are you to judge!? Only future generations will have the right to
say whether we are truly Maverick or not."
"Maverick? You seem more Maverick to me. With all your stubborn
nonsense about friendship and... and your unwillingness to evolve."
"Stay in our place, be friendly to all, decade after decade...
indefinitely... Is this all Reploids will ever be? Some day... you'll see...
We'll... Change the world."
"The destiny of destruction... Still awaits... So long as you have hearts, hate will lurk in the shadows. You who possess the wellspring of emotion known as the heart... You are the true Mavericks!"
"Hmph... By drowning in peace, by rejecting change, you made the choice for the destruction of the Earth. I am trying to create a new world. I want to bring new life into the world and protect its future."
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Okay, slightly off-topic: the Joker is most definitely not sane. He's been said to have been driven nuts His popularity notwithstanding, what was the defense that he's used to avoid the death penalty?
As a matter of fact, most of the Batman villains are crazy (or psychotic, if you want the correct label); Two-face's obsession with duality (and in some versions, split-personality disorder), Poison Ivy's eco-terrorism reeks of hypocrisy and sociopathy, Harley Quinn was driven insane by the Joker, the Riddler's signature gimmick has been said to have been his compulsion to always speak the truth, and most of the others are either sociopathic or desparate ( DCAU's Mr. Freeze in particular).
On-topic-stop looking at Sigma's words and look at his actions.
X1- Here we have the cold, ruthless, somewhat psychotic tyrant. His plan was sound and logical- get rid of the useless sacks of guts and water that keep bossing his species around.
X2- Sigma's plan here was to revive Zero and use him against X. It was implied here that he found out about Zero's origins in between the games here, and figured Zero would join him. Here's where we find out Sigma's become a virus.
X3- He's become far more manipulative here: Dr. Doppler was infected by the Sigma Virus and was used to created Neo2 Sigma and Kaiser Sigma. This implies rampant sociopathy: Sigma's starting to think of members of his own species as things.
X4- His big plan here was to pit Repliforce against the Hunters and take control of Final Weapon. Sociopathy aside, Sigma split himself between 5 different heads during the last fight; that had to be taxing.
X5- Here he's almost become obsessed with purifying Zero and returning him to his vicious roots. X only plays an incidental role in the plot; Sigma's goals revolve around recreating Maverick Zero and using him to destroy X.
X6- Gate was the main culprit here. Despite that, his dialog suggests he was fully there; he recognized both X and Zero, and before the final battle he only sounded tired. (After X5, I would be too...) It seemed to me the strain from body-hopping so soon caused that psychosis (JUZDIE! ZELLO! ZELLLLLLOOOOO!!) we all remember here.
X7- Sigma wanted to use Axl to gain the DNA data from X; he did to Red Alert what he did to Repliforce, except he infected several of the bosses (Flame Hyenard and Tornado Tonion were the obvious victims here). Nothing new here. Note that Professor Sigma appeared to be a finished version of Reborn Sigma.
X8-I'm not gonna touch this one; we've discussed this to death.
He seems to suffer mainly from sociopathy, and is not above using anyone and everyone hecan to further his own goals. It also seemed to me that he stopped caring about freeing Reploids from humanity's control and starting to obsess over his vendetta against X and Zero. That's not exactly mentally healthy.
The words Insanity and Psychosis seem to be erroneously interchangeable in modern times.
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Okay, slightly off-topic: the Joker is most definitely not sane. He's been said to have been driven nuts His popularity notwithstanding, what was the defense that he's used to avoid the death penalty?
He has also been hypothesized to possibly have a form of super sanity, which varies from day to day to accommodate to society around him. A harmless clown one day, a psychotic serial killer the next. But the joker is irrelevant to this. I cannot see how he relates to this discussion at all.
X2- Sigma's plan here was to revive Zero and use him against X. It was implied here that he found out about Zero's origins in between the games here, and figured Zero would join him. Here's where we find out Sigma's become a virus.
False. We did not find out he was a virus in X2. What we saw, was a holographic wireframe head of Sigma. Just like there was the sword miniboss earlier during the actual Magna Centipede stage.
X3- He's become far more manipulative here: Dr. Doppler was infected by the Sigma Virus and was used to created Neo2 Sigma and Kaiser Sigma. This implies rampant sociopathy: Sigma's starting to think of members of his own species as things.
what is "Neo[sup2[/sup]"? I do not recall Sigma's first body having a name. Also, Sigma was manipulating Doppler. Doppler would not otherwise assist him. he infected Doppler and Doppler made him his body. It does not indicate Sociopathy. Sigma used similar methods as far as X1. Storm Eagle is an example. He resisted Sigma, and was beaten down and subordinated in return. Sigma infected many Maverick Hunters and defected them to his cause. It is the same exact thing as in X3. also, THIS is where we discover that he is a Virus. Doppler once defeated, regains his senses, and reveals it to X.
X4- His big plan here was to pit Repliforce against the Hunters and take control of Final Weapon. Sociopathy aside, Sigma split himself between 5 different heads during the last fight; that had to be taxing.
The Idea to take over Final weapon was only once they actually built it. Obviously by integrating himself with the very weapon itself. Also, Final Weapon can not obliterate the whole Earth. It can cause widespread damage enough to kill a VERY large amount of Humans, which is his goal. Also, Pitting the Hunters against the Repliforce does not show any form of mental illness. In fact, It shows that he is clever. The idea is for them to both destroy each other so that thee is no one left to stop HIM. He figured that The Hunters would label Repliforce Maverick for Sky lagoon, because he had close proximity to General I assume he was aware of Colonel's personality, and abused His stubborn pride. He figured that They would both wipe the majority of each other out. Thats not something a sociopath would do.
X5- Here he's almost become obsessed with purifying Zero and returning him to his vicious roots. X only plays an incidental role in the plot; Sigma's goals revolve around recreating Maverick Zero and using him to destroy X.
Sigma has been intruiged by his partners obsession over Zero. Plus, He wants to destroy them both, X and Zero. and what better way than a betrayal? a sad and dramatic end. Zero would serve his purpose and kill X, and then be on his side. plus, the idea of using Eurasia also presents massive collateral damage, which could destroy almost all of humanity. The alternate scenario, while not the one that happened, shows that if Eurasia successfully collides with the Earth, the human race just nearly avoids extinction. Kill 3 birds with one stone. Kill X, Kill the Humans, and have a evil Zero on his side, with his "Partner"s assistance.
X6- Gate was the main culprit here. Despite that, his dialog suggests he was fully there; he recognized both X and Zero, and before the final battle he only sounded tired. (After X5, I would be too...) It seemed to me the strain from body-hopping so soon caused that psychosis (JUZDIE! ZELLO! ZELLLLLLOOOOO!!) we all remember here.
It was the only reason. and Not because he was "tired" or "worn out" But because he was barely even alive. He was just brought back from the eve of his true death, which had completely obliterated him, and was awakened in an incomplete body, and barely even conscious. All he could even remember was revene against those that had hurt him. He was running on rage and instinct.
X7- Sigma wanted to use Axl to gain the DNA data from X; he did to Red Alert what he did to Repliforce, except he infected several of the bosses (Flame Hyenard and Tornado Tonion were the obvious victims here). Nothing new here. Note that Professor Sigma appeared to be a finished version of Reborn Sigma.
X and Zero. Not just X. and he infected ALL of red alert. not just a few. When Red Realized his organization was just used by Sigma, and demanded he leave them alone, he presented the Sigma Virus brainwashed members of Red alert.
"Lets do this Democratically..."
"If you dont do as I say, they'll never return to normal..."
X8-I'm not gonna touch this one; we've discussed this to death.
No, we will discuss it.
He seems to suffer mainly from sociopathy, and is not above using anyone and everyone hecan to further his own goals. It also seemed to me that he stopped caring about freeing Reploids from humanity's control and starting to obsess over his vendetta against X and Zero. That's not exactly mentally healthy.
Sociopathy? How can you figure? also, he never saw himself as some savior. He only cares about reploid evolution. Anyone who opposes it or does not follow him, is part of the problem, and he has no qualms with eliminating or using them.
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CyberXIII, you seem to be confusing the terms 'unethical' and 'insanity'.
Sigma's philosophy is one achieved for a large portion by logical thinking, he is very much correct in the conclusions he made; they were made with a sane mind. It's just that his conclusion requires a clear lack of ethics to accept; Sigma's philosophy is that humanity is holding back Repliroid evolution and therefore should be eradicated. Even someone like X can accept Sigma's philosophy as logical, he just vehemently detests it for its unethical aspect. As a result, X considers Sigma's unethical actions as being 'insane.'
So, it boils down to what I proposed before.. Is being ethical sanity? Is being unethical insanity? Or vice versa? Strong emotions of care surely cloud the rational mind, so how is that sane? A complete lack of care has no inhibitions, so how is that sane? Good, evil, sane, insane, regular, irregular.
'The issue isn't so black and white.'
However, you still seem to be blaming the Virus for Sigma's state of mind... don't... X8 clearly proves that using the DNA of the original Sigma induces the same state of mind as the current Sigma; it allows people to see his philosophy as correct by viewing it with his lack of compassion. The Virus isn't affecting the New Generation at all and they have the DNA of his original body; so how could it be that the Virus is responsible for Sigma's change of heart?
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'The issue isn't so black and white.'
Indeed, however since Sigma cannot feel or understand what compassion and worrying is, he can´t truly understand the world or the world him.
It was not the world which was imperfect, it was Sigma himself. That is the whole irony of it.
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The Irony, actually, Is that it is X's compassion, Worrying, All those things that make X X, Which give him the ability to evolve and grow as he fights. Those are all things which Sigma lacks, ad therefore, his dream of evolution will never be within his grasp.
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As to Flame's question, Neo2 Sigma was the official name of X3 Sigma's first form.
Sociopath-Antisocial Personality Disorder is also known as psychopathy or
sociopathy. Individuals with this disorder have little regard for the
feeling and welfare of others. As a clinical diagnosis it is usually
limited to those over age 18. It can be diagnosed in younger people
if the they commit isolated antisocial acts and do not show signs of
another mental disorder.
Antisocial Personality Disorder is chronic, beginning in adolescence
and continuing throughout adulthood. There are ten general
symptoms:
not learning from experience
no sense of responsibility
inability to form meaningful relationships
inability to control impulses
lack of moral sense
chronically antisocial behavior
no change in behavior after punishment
emotional immaturity
lack of guilt
self-centeredness
Most of these definitely seem to fit Sigma, especially the lack of guilt one. Not learning from experience fits too: 8 mavericks everytime.
EDIT:People with this disorder may exhibit criminal behavior. They may
not work. If they do work, they are frequently absent or may quit
suddenly. They do not consider other people's wishes, welfare or
rights. They can be manipulative and may lie to gain personal
pleasure or profit. They may default on loans, fail to provide child
support, or fail to care for their dependents adequately. High risk
sexual behavior and substance abuse are common. Impulsiveness,
failure to plan ahead, aggressiveness, irritability, irresponsibility,
and a reckless disregard for their own safety and the safety of
others are traits of the antisocial personality.
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Neo2 Sigma was the official name of X3 Sigma's first form.
"Neo Sigma" is a name used for X2's final Sigma. X3's Sigma is just referred to as "Sigma" and "Kaiser Sigma" for his final form.
Not learning from experience fits too: 8 mavericks everytime.
Yeah, an arbitrary gameplay limitation is a sign of Sigma not learning? Just because the game only focuses on eight bosses doesn't mean there are more. Besides, not all of the eight have the same allegiance in a few of the games.
Really, no matter what number of forces he has, X and Zero will always defeat them.
Most of these definitely seem to fit Sigma
Really, they don't. Sigma is a charismatic leader. That alone negates the good majority of symptoms.
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Zan is right~
X2 (http://www.rockmanpm.com/?p=x/rockmanx2/boss): (http://www.rockmanpm.com/i/x/rockmanx2/boss/neosigma.png) (Neo Sigma)
X3 (http://www.rockmanpm.com/?p=x/rockmanx3/boss): (http://www.rockmanpm.com/i/x/rockmanx3/boss/sigma.png) (Sigma)
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"Neo Sigma" is a name used for X2's final Sigma. X3's Sigma is just referred to as "Sigma" and "Kaiser Sigma" for his final form.
Yeah, an arbitrary gameplay limitation is a sign of Sigma not learning? Just because the game only focuses on eight bosses doesn't mean there are more. Besides, not all of the eight have the same allegiance in a few of the games.
Really, no matter what number of forces he has, X and Zero will always defeat them.
Really, they don't. Sigma is a charismatic leader. That alone negates the good majority of symptoms.
1. No, X3 is Neo2. It's in the OST. The Wireframe Sigma Head is the Virus form. The body in X2 was Neo Sigma, not the Head.
2. I concede this one.
3. He was a leader in X1. X2 was the remnants of his army gathering together. X3 was everyone obeying the corrupted Doppler. X4 was all Repliforce. X5 had no central leader. X6 was Gate. X7 was Red Alert. X8 was the New Gens.
The free will thing still has me confused. Aren't Reploids able to make their own choices and decisions, unfettered by programming?
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1. No, X3 is Neo2. It's in the OST. The Wireframe Sigma Head is the Virus form. The body in X2 was Neo Sigma, not the Head.
What OST are you talking about? Compendium of Rockman X outright identifies the X3 final form as Neo Sigma and lists the X3 forms as Sigma and Kaiser Sigma respectively. Let alone the game credits stating so.
3. He was a leader in X1. X2 was the remnants of his army gathering together. X3 was everyone obeying the corrupted Doppler. X4 was all Repliforce. X5 had no central leader. X6 was Gate. X7 was Red Alert. X8 was the New Gens.
Regardless of the state of his army at any time, him being a charismatic leader is a fact. Therefore he's sociable, has a sense of morals, can quickly adapt to any situation, has responsibility and knows when he himself is to blame for something. The fact that he disagrees with everything he was thought as Hunter is his own choice.
The free will thing still has me confused. Aren't Reploids able to make their own choices and decisions, unfettered by programming?
Robots have had free will ever since the classic series. Repliroids are simply a step up, being able to 'determine right and wrong for themselves'.
But free will is never free. Do you really think a human's 'free will' is truly free? Our very lives are the chains that bind us; physics, DNA, compassion, logic, morals, ethics, experience, laws, society. Repliroids might have free will, but there are not by definition irregular because they are bound within the confines of regularity. Sigma by the very definition of his being is an irregular from the start in that he was never bound to morals, ethics, compassion, law and society.
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Compendium of X
Page 43: Rockman X2: Neo Sigma
Page 57: Rockman X3: Kaiser Sigma
Nothing else mentioned. Any other names might have been old sources or rumors that was later fixed by Capcom.
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Sigma only had an army in X1 and X2. He stole someone else's in the other games. As a matter of fact, the bosses in X5 were all random reploids that had stuff the hunters needed for the Cannon and Shuttle.
It seems to me we're starting to argue what the definition of Irregular/Maverick is in the X series.
Is it a Reploid rebelling against Humanity?
Is it a Reploid corrupted with the Sigma/ Zero/ Nightmare Viri?
Is it a label humans have placed on Reploids that don't do as their told?
is it a Reploid that is merely a criminal?
Lastly, about the free will thing: If what you say is true about the robots having free will in the Classic series, then what did studying X accomplish? They already knew right and wrong; they were programmed with it.
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Sigma only had an army in X1 and X2. He stole someone else's in the other games. As a matter of fact, the bosses in X5 were all random reploids that had stuff the hunters needed for the Cannon and Shuttle.
It's very naieve to think Sigma's forces are limited to the scope of the game.
Lastly, about the free will thing: If what you say is true about the robots having free will in the Classic series, then what did studying X accomplish? They already knew right and wrong; they were programmed with it.
"To determine it for themselves."
It seems to me we're starting to argue what the definition of Irregular/Maverick is in the X series.
That's the entire point, there is no set definition. It's highly dependent on who is saying it.
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Sigma only had an army in X1 and X2. He stole someone else's in the other games. As a matter of fact, the bosses in X5 were all random reploids that had stuff the hunters needed for the Cannon and Shuttle.
In X1, he infected and took the majority of the Maverick Hunters with him. in X2, He had the Counter Hunters who wer ein charge while he was gone, and had a maverick making factory. plus many of his forces from his initial rebellion. in X3, he infected and corrupted Doppler, whi spread the virus around, creating new forces. "stole"? Doppler never HAD an army. they were all just reploids who lived in Dopplertown, under the assumption he had created a safe haven with his antivirus. Which was false, as he was possibly infected prior to creating Dopplertown. (I think it might have been before Megamission...) All the reploids in Dopplertown became his soldiers. in X4, he still has his own forces, remember, there are all enemies and such on Sky Lagoon, those are all mavericks sent by Sigma. Dragoon is a traitor, tricked and used by Sigma by abusing his lust for battling X and Zero, and Double, a spy who infiltrated the hunters.
in Short, Sigma ALWAYS has his own forces. his followers. the ones he "steals" or "uses" in game, are just that. being used. Like Red Alert. But in the end, Red Alert did go Maverick with the exception of Red. in X8, he didnt steal anything. the NewGens went with him of their own accord, because they they awakened. They became sigma.
It seems to me we're starting to argue what the definition of Irregular/Maverick is in the X series.
Is it a Reploid rebelling against Humanity?
Is it a Reploid corrupted with the Sigma/ Zero/ Nightmare Viri?
Is it a label humans have placed on Reploids that don't do as their told?
is it a Reploid that is merely a criminal?
the way I see it, its all of those.
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The definition of "Maverick" varies greatly depending on who uses it. I think, in the X-series context, it's those Reploids who threaten humanity, but they commonly believe the virus to be the sole cause of such behavior. X8 took that assumption and threw it in the Hunters' faces. In addition to Sigma, MHX also outright states that Vile can go Maverick of his own accord, hence justifying his presence with Sigma and the New Gens in X8.
But free will is never free. Do you really think a human's 'free will' is truly free? Our very lives are the chains that bind us; physics, DNA, compassion, logic, morals, ethics, experience, laws, society. Repliroids might have free will, but there are not by definition irregular because they are bound within the confines of regularity. Sigma by the very definition of his being is an irregular from the start in that he was never bound to morals, ethics, compassion, law and society.
That's a highly speculative philosophical debate, and one which the likes of Weil and Serpent are likely to oppose.
"You who possess the wellspring of emotion known as the heart... You are the true Mavericks!"
Zan is right~
X2 (http://www.rockmanpm.com/?p=x/rockmanx2/boss): (http://www.rockmanpm.com/i/x/rockmanx2/boss/neosigma.png) (Neo Sigma)
X3 (http://www.rockmanpm.com/?p=x/rockmanx3/boss): (http://www.rockmanpm.com/i/x/rockmanx3/boss/sigma.png) (Sigma)
What source denotes Neo Sigma as Sigma's FINAL form in X2 and not his first? The X2 credits list only one form, Neo Sigma, with set Speed and Power of 18500rp.
Servbot 20's old sourcebook info lists the first form as Neo Sigma and the second as Sigma Virus. This makes sense given that X3 establishes that, like X and Zero, the Sigma Virus has unknown Speed and Power ratings, so it's excusable that X2 ignored it (also the fact that the Sigma Virus, while existing in X2 and in fact utilized by the Computer Center under Magna Centipede's supervision, was not really understood by the Hunters until X3). Otherwise, the fact that X2 lists only one Sigma form is very, very odd. Especially so if it lists a floating head with fixed stats but not Sigma's actual body.
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Well, X2 wireframe WAS the virus, it was a phisical manifestation of the virus, just like the sword Miniboss I believe. Only that we and the hunters didnt know that till Doppler told us.
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The virus was in a "Neo" state. Get it? >U<
In X3, it was called Sigma Virus though. ^^
The makers of the "Compendium of X" didn't read other sources I guess. They might have just taken the source straight from the games. The games are still accessable (taking screenshots, publishing them on a book, and so on).
Think at that point of view and you see that someone in Japan messed up, not us. I mean after all, the source comes straight from official books, and the older books are hard to find now. The books are mostly about artworks anyway (R20 is a good example ^^). The publishers don't usually have time to fix every single error, so what you see is what you get.
I think that among the "newer" books (200X), the most informative books was RZOCW, CoX (not the doctor >v<) and even R20. R20 was mostly about artworks though and the RPM book isn't really a fully detailed book. It does show a little information on each game (not full guides though). Enough to explain what the games are about (with as little spoiler as possible). It only showed games up to 2002, and the Key Words (Idiom) we got at the end pages wasn't as deep and impressive as the list in RZOCW.
We do get some small hints about elements for the DASH series and a little back story about Zero, but like I said, the information was kept short, on a small column. Reminds you of a 200+ pages instruction manual, minus the button setup, doesn't it? o.o; </wii>
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What source denotes Neo Sigma as Sigma's FINAL form in X2 and not his first? The X2 credits list only one form, Neo Sigma, with set Speed and Power of 18500rp.
As Vixy said, the Compendium lists Neo Sigma as his final form. But for obvious reasons the RP ratings in the game belong to the first form. I think they decided on the change because in general, only the final forms have distinct names, whereas the first form is always just Sigma.
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Sigma did not go nuts thanks to the Virus, that's a fan assumption.
かつてはイレギュラーハンター第１７部隊の隊長であったシグマ。その圧倒的な戦闘能力は史上最強といわれ、特A級ハンターとして仲間に尊敬され、信頼されていたレプリロイドである。だが、ある日、正体不明の赤いイレギュラー（ゼロ）との戦いにおいて敗北を喫し、最強と自負するプライドがズタズタにされた。このときにゼロからイレギュラー化を促進するウイルスに感染し、邪悪な心が芽生えてしまう。数ヶ月後、完全に邪悪なウイルスの虜となったシグマは、その圧倒的な力と天才的な頭脳で大勢のレプリロイドを従え、人間に対して反乱を起こしたのであった。
Sigma was at one time the Commander of the Irregular Hunter 17th Unit. A Special A Class Hunter, he was called the strongest in history due to his overpowering combat abilities, and gained the confidence and respect of his fellow repliroids. However, on a certain day, he suffered a defeat in battle by an unidentified unknown red irregular (Zero) that tore at his proud ego. At that time he was infected by some manner of virus that facilitates irregularity, germinating wickedness in his heart. Several month later, Sigma was completely enslaved by the evil virus, and used his overwhelming strength and genius intellect to subdue many repliroids into joining him in a revolt against humanity.
しかし、ある日ゼロに敗北し、イレギュラー化するウイルスをうつされてしまった。邪悪な心に支配されたシグマは、人類の敵としてエックスたちの前に何度も現われることになる。
But, one day, [Sigma] suffered a defeat by Zero, and was inflicted with an irregular converting virus. Under the control of an evil heart, Sigma made enemies of humanity and popped up to cause trouble for X and his companions many times over.
そんな彼が、なぜイレギュラーと化してしまったのだろう？あくまで推測ではあるが、イレギュラーだったZEROと戦ったとき、イレギュラー化を促進するウイルスのようなものを浴びてしまったのが原因ではないだろうか。
Just why did he become irregular? There has been much conjecture, but the actual cause could well be from when was showered in some kind of irregular-facilitating virus during his fight with the irregularly behaved Zero.
ゼロのイレギュラーのウイルスにおかされて、シグマは、じゃあくになってしまう。
Invaded by Zero's irregular virus, Sigma became evil.
Every X4 related sourcebook makes a relation between Sigma going evil and the virus infection, some more blatant than others. And then there's...
4) What was the inspiration for Sigma?
KI: Some people think he might have been inspired by Sagat from Street Fighter because of his look, but that's not actually the case. Sigma and Zero basically represent the idea that nothing is absolute. Sigma was a powerful leader of the Maverick Hunters but after Zero passed the virus to him, his allegiance changed. Circumstances can change anything, and nothing is absolute.
Inafune sounds confused. Maybe you guys need to explain how Sigma was going to change his allegiance anyway even if he never had the virus. Or more accurately, that Sigma's allegiances never really changed at all, because he was an unemphatic calculating monster from the beginning. It's so obvious! /sarcasm
As a man without worrying, compassion, hesistation, as a man of logic, that is the conclusion he came up with.
Being decisive doesn't lend itself to being amoral or without compassion. When Cain talks about Sigma not having X's problem of worrying too much, he is not saying that he thinks Sigma is entirely unfeeling or morally bankrupt. His rebellion was as much a surprise to Cain as anyone else.
Sigma's philosophy was first formed by seeing X's justice, before he ever came into came into contact with Zero he already began to think about the imperfections of the world. That philosophy is what binds the new generation.
It's a wonder how or when Sigma ever saw X's justice, especially to say it was early on, seeing as X didn't join the Hunters until after Zero did, which would also be after the virus was already inside Sigma. In fact, unless Cain's speech about X in the Day of Sigma video was a repeated speech from a rambling old man, it doesn't seem like Sigma had much interest in X, his weak justice and worrying et al, before the events of that time just before his rebellion. Which was already in the works before the conversation about X took place, seeing as Sigma's henchmen were behind the mechaniloid hacking at the start of the movie, and according to the chatter at Hunter base was but one in a subsequent series of such events.
It is possible that they did have some unknown conversation or shared experience which divulged X's sense of justice way back at the dawning of the reploid era, and it had such an impact so as to influence his entire train of thought for all points hereafter, then Sigma even after convincing himself that there was no justice in his own actions, he still accepted the job of Hunter commander and performed it for over 2 years without faltering, without complaining or confiding in anyone that we could tell of, and still spouting the same political rhetoric he so loathes as if he believed it. A very long time to bear such a cross, but maybe Redips did it for longer, who knows. It could be.
It's just that the only true support for it is Sigma's dialogue in X8 where he's clearly taunting X, this time his ideals. A statement which could also be explained by Sigma judging X's "justice" after the virus infected him and X joined his group, in scenes such as we see in IHX. After taking effect from the virus. Fueled with evil that needed an outlet, having lost the perspective to which he previously kept, Sigma found something to rebel against. What it is exactly probably doesn't matter to the virus much at all. If Sigma believes the human society, or X's ideals, are what is wrong with the world, it's fine so long as he's convinced enough of its intolerableness. It doesn't even need to be fully justifiable, just strongly believed.
"It is not the case that Sigma was by any means insane."
Says the clearly excellent judge of sanity. Lumine believes Sigma's choices to be his own in the same way he views his own choices his own, despite his and all the New Gen's awakenings being the result of Sigma's tampering with their Copy Chips. Lumine believes he made a choice to follow Sigma. But he also holds that it is the only correct choice, and all awakened NGs seem to agree. Out of those countless analyzed old generation reploids, out of all their possible ideals and morals, only Sigma's came to a head? That incredible statistic shows that it was in fact a very weighted game, if it weren't clear enough when Sigma took credit for their specific addition made during manufacture. They were not designed to make any other choice. When it comes down to it, Sigma's DNA is as equally vehement as the Sigma Virus that is his true form, and in fact are probably one and the same, just on a much more thorough scale.
In X5 Sigma Died for real. He did not have enough Virus, and could not trigger his revival program. He for all intents and purposes, died for good. If it weren't for Gate, He probably would have stayed that way.
All of which Sigma completely denied, of course. Did he need the help? Had he really died completely? Sourcebooks say yes, Sigma says no. That Sigma was unable to admit his own failing tells us something about him.
also, Horobe! Its called in fight dialogue. Just like X yelling STOP IT! when he fires his buster in X7. or Zeros comments in CM.
That "Horobe!! Horobe, horobe, horobe!" thing CyberXIII was talking about wasn't move-use related, it was cutscene dialogue. The one that only appears on hard mode, when Sigma snatches your character with Mirage Claw and a brief scene plays out where your partner saves you.
Be whatever title they were given, they were humanity's slaves in the X series more than companions.
By setting accounts, the vast majority of reploids and humans lived together in peace. Reploids were integrated into all walks of society. Not just lowly employees or laborers, they were also the site managers, the the factory bosses, the politicians... Reploids even police themselves. The Hunters don't simply exist to protect the humans' rights, but to protect reploid rights as well. An irregular isn't just a threat to humans, it's a threat to everything and anything around it, other reploids included. The Hunters are "both sword and shield to those who cannot protect themselves." For humans and reploids. Employment was up, demand was high. If anything, human laziness accelerated the production of reploids. Why Sigma thinks that humanity is holding them back could be more a question of their "strong and weak are equal" conventions that society is based upon. It is true that their society was not perfect, and injustice did exist. But Sigma's answer to those kinds of injustices is to heap even more injustice on top of it, for both humans and for reploids who don't submit to his rule (and even those that do wind up meeting untimely ends at his orders). Sigma's only consistent ideal is that the strong (being himself) should rule and the rest are the weak, to be used as the strong so pleases.
Being a murderer or being a mass murderer does not make you insane.
It doesn't help, though. As was said many times already, sane vs insane is a judgment based on a sense of "normalcy" which changes from viewpoint to viewpoint, a call made by the opinions of contemporary experts or of a jury of one's peers... Sigma's obsession with power, belief in his own superiority, lack of sympathy for others or remorse for any harm caused by him to anyone, going to any length of manipulation, mayhem and murder to achieve his selfish and often perplexing goals. Some experts could well find someone with his collection of neuroses to be quite insane. Lumine thinks it visionary. Maybe it's all true in some ways.
X8 clearly proves that using the DNA of the original Sigma induces the same state of mind as the current Sigma
Where did it prove that? Sigma says he had his own data engraved on the copy chips, but nothing in X8 says that the Sigma data in the copy chip is Sigma's data without any of that viral influence at all. The opposite, the ultimate destroyer's DNA contribution is highly credited. It's mentioned many times that Zero had the potential to be like Sigma and join with the New Gens as well. Why? The virus. Or rather, Zero's original programming. The removal of inhibitions, the desire for the purity of destruction. To become a new world's messiah, Omega might say. But our Zero rejects that path, and so must be destroyed as well.
Sociopath-Antisocial Personality Disorder
Looking it up on Wikipedia (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder"), I think there is a very strong case to say Sigma would fall under this disorder's guidelines. Seeing as you only need to meet 3 or more of the diagnostic criteria, and of the 7 they list, only 2 don't sound too much like Sigma. But there is some question in applying that kind of human mental disorder to a reploid. For instance, narcissism among reploids may be easier to justify than among humans, by data analysis reploids could theoretically compare certain exacting specs or rare abilities. Recklessness self-endangerment for humans can result in very final consequences, while reploids who can be repaired from much worse damage than humans may endure, or even swap bodies and be resurrected as Sigma so often does, the consequences of that behavior becomes less severe. Even where circumstances may not apply, I personally think of Sigma as a psychopathic megalomaniac. And will defend that position, if anyone wants to argue.
What source denotes Neo Sigma as Sigma's FINAL form in X2 and not his first?
I have a lot of books discussing X2, some game guide books and some source book types. Sigma's X2 first form is just called Sigma in every one of them. The only book I have that uses the Neo Sigma for anything at all is the Compendium of X, and it only uses it on the second form of Sigma. I think the credits were simply mistaken in which name they used associated with those meaningless rp numbers. Sometimes the credits make mistakes.
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Now, how can we say that Sigma meddled with the copy chips,and not that the scientists who developed them were just incredibly stupid?
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Every X4 related sourcebook makes a relation between Sigma going evil and the virus infection, some more blatant than others. And then there's...
Inafune sounds confused. Maybe you guys need to explain how Sigma was going to change his allegiance anyway even if he never had the virus. Or more accurately, that Sigma's allegiances never really changed at all, because he was an unemphatic calculating monster from the beginning. It's so obvious! /sarcasm
"Insanity" and "Evil" are two mutually exclusive terms, Marshmallow. That Sigma is going insane is the fan assumption. That Sigma changed seems clear enough; he merged with the Virus and became evil. How that expanded his psyche is unclear, but Sigma makes direct allusions to that fact even within X8. Doesn't mean he went nuts and is insane.
I would say that as a man of logic, Sigma would accept the conclusion he came up with. But during his hunter times, his compassion was still a bit higher than it is today, so based on that compassion, he rejects his own philosophy.
It's a wonder how or when Sigma ever saw X's justice, especially to say it was early on.
My honest mistake, I had the mistranslated Xtreme intro in the back of my mind when writing. You're right, Zero joined before X. And at that time, X was still doubting himself.
Being decisive doesn't lend itself to being amoral or without compassion. When Cain talks about Sigma not having X's problem of worrying too much, he is not saying that he thinks Sigma is entirely unfeeling or morally bankrupt. His rebellion was as much a surprise to Cain as anyone else.
Of course, it doesn't, but it makes quite an easy jump from that to how he is today.
Where did it prove that?
Well, the body is most certainly his original one in a new design, saber and everything. However, that not saying if its before or after the battle with Zero. Perhaps because Zero's Virus seems to have slightly changed Sigma's DNA, there's the aggressive reaction which causes the awakening of the New Generation. But when it comes down to it, the most vital point is that though they have Sigma's DNA, a connecting with the Virus is not required to achieve the same state of mind as Sigma.
Now, how can we say that Sigma meddled with the copy chips,and not that the scientists who developed them were just incredibly stupid?
I honestly don't think Sigma meddled with the copy chips, rather, he became interested after his own DNA was included, deciding to make good use of it. Redips on the other hand most likely meddled with Copy Chip production to once again include the awakening process. Of course, we must also question who is behind the New Generation in general, however did the government come to acquire something that was once exclusive to Axl?
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Maybe Axl was made by them too? He is a prototype. Maybe He was a purposely made prototype? They came up with the theory of the copy chip, and tested it. They created Axl.
yknow, that could shine light on Axl.
his connection and differences with NewGens.
Lets say he was a secret experiment. They test him for while, and deem him a failure due to his ability being so incredibly limited that it would not be useful. What if he was originally developed as an infiltration unit? Someone who can imitate any target, and well, basically, ever watch the Zeta Project? But his ability was considered not good enough for the job. They decide to terminate him? Axl fights back, of course, but nearly gets killed. He runs into Red and he sees him and for whatever reason, saves Axl. Losing his eye in the process.
Eventually, those new type of Reploids are improved, and it they develop the idea of including the DNA already on the Copy Chip. They then realize that they can be multipurpose. For any type of work because of their ability.
the Jakob project comes up, and they are put right on it.
theres really no foundation behind that at all, but what do you think of it? could explain Axl's scar and Red's eye. As well as Axl's lost memory of before he met Red.(trauma. Hey, [parasitic bomb] works for Zero, so why not?)
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My best guess would be that Copy Chip production, being a very significant and very complex undertaking, was originally classified and remained so until sometime between X7 and X8. Nothing in X7 says that Axl is the prototype for a new line of Reploids, that knowledge didn't come until X8.
Where did it prove that? Sigma says he had his own data engraved on the copy chips, but nothing in X8 says that the Sigma data in the copy chip is Sigma's data without any of that viral influence at all. The opposite, the ultimate destroyer's DNA contribution is highly credited.
But how does Sigma's DNA, which is to say the X1 body's DNA, relate to the virus? That Sigma tampered with Copy Chip production is his own statements, that he would have tipped the scales in doing so is a reasonable assumption, but that in and of itself doesn't necessarily denote a virus-related strategy. Sigma's no stranger to other means of coercion, as we've seen in X4 and X7. Selectively choosing which enemy gloating to accept and ignore hardly justifies the position, either.
It's also incorrect to assume that the X8 Mavericks have no reservations about what they're doing. Confront Dark Mantis as Axl sometime, he admits to being jealous of Axl's innocence.
Speaking of Axl, one has to ask how he fits into this. Where is the line drawn between Axl and the finalized New Gens? If the cause of their Maverick behavior is viral, is this to say that Axl, the prototype, has greater antiviral abilities than the finished models? Lumine, when asked on this topic, responds with "Sorry, but prototypes like you don't have the specs to pull something like that." Most all of the New Gens and Sigma are well aware of the fact that Axl has no potential to join them, so why?
The primary difference between Axl and the finished New Generation Reploids is that the copy ability was perfected. It's not so far a stretch to think that Axl's limitations (prior to Command Mission, anyway) are what denies him the ability to achieve the likeness with Sigma that the other New Gens do.
There is such a thing as one who goes Maverick of their own accord, as Sigma outright states in MHX when he releases Vile. So the possibility cannot be denied, and the idea that Vile would share that theme with Sigma, Lumine, and the New Generation Reploids goes a long way to explaining his presence in X8.
It's mentioned many times that Zero had the potential to be like Sigma and join with the New Gens as well. Why? The virus. Or rather, Zero's original programming. The removal of inhibitions, the desire for the purity of destruction. To become a new world's messiah, Omega might say. But our Zero rejects that path, and so must be destroyed as well.
(http://mysite.verizon.net/Serpentara/holdit.gif)
Zero in his awakened state (X5) cares nothing about the outside world, not even the Mavericks. He is focused solely on one goal: X. The phrase "new world" means nothing to him. Omega's personality is not Zero's original programming. Inticreates left some ambiguous possibilities of a linkage but confirmed nothing, and even if such a link did exist, Omega would still be a derivative work.
Sigma is certainly thrilled by the idea of awakening Zero's true self, going so far as in X2 to claim Zero was destined to follow him, but can we honestly believe that? When a voice in Zero's head is encouraging him as he's about to hunt down Sigma in X6? Sounds like somebody was being played.
Are we honestly to believe that Zero, and by extension Wily in X-series timeframe, wishes to remold the world when Wily sealed Zero until such time when he could challenge X? When after an allegiance with Sigma to unlock Zero's true potential, leaving the world in shambles as a side-effect, Wily simply drops off the face of the Earth? I don't buy that.
Sometimes the credits make mistakes.
True enough, I recall the Ostro/Birdo mixup. I guess we'll have to leave it at that.
KI: Some people think he might have been inspired by Sagat from Street Fighter because of his look, but that's not actually the case. Sigma and Zero basically represent the idea that nothing is absolute. Sigma was a powerful leader of the Maverick Hunters but after Zero passed the virus to him, his allegiance changed. Circumstances can change anything, and nothing is absolute.
Inafune is merely stating a sequence of events, not a cause and effect (although the implication is there, it's not directly stated). He did fight Zero, the virus was passed to him, and his allegiance did change. That the second caused the third is a logical assumption but still an assumption. As for the X4 book quotes, given that X8 is supposed to be a revelation on a possibility that the Hunters, and the vast majority of the fanbase, left totally ignored, why is it anyone's surprise that older sources don't sync with it?
The virus, regardless of its effects on Sigma's judgment, was key to his role as leader of the rebellion. That he sics Vile on X in MHX on the sole grounds that he can go Maverick of his own accord says that such a phenomenon, while possible, is exceedingly rare. Sigma needed the virus solely for gathering support if nothing else, to say nothing of giving himself near immortality. It definitely affects his abilities, and perhaps it did affect his judgement, but that doesn't mean he can't draw the same conclusions. Philosophy is one thing, implementation is another. If he decides that Reploids would develop ideally without humans, how far is he willing to go to see it happen? Would the virus change that? Would a space development production line churning out new allies change that?
You see how the virus making him evil, ruthless, etc., does not necessarily mean that the virus is responsible for his belief in Reploid superiority.
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I still believe Sigma was at least a sociopath. Oh, and now to ask another question:
Reploids are able to determine right and wrong for themselves without the need for outside programmin, correct? If so, what's stopping them from non-violently establishing their own country? Like what Repliforce wanted, but done right?
Second: am I the only one who thinks that human intelligence took a sharp decline during 21XX? Creating robots that can perfectly mimic something as dangerous as Sigma, even if theoretically that shouldn't turn them evil, is a dumb move. Cue mass identity theft.
EDIT: Where did you get that Mirage Claw attack name?
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Reploids are able to determine right and wrong for themselves without the need for outside programmin, correct? If so, what's stopping them from non-violently establishing their own country? Like what Repliforce wanted, but done right?
Remember the rebellion army. They were not maverick (not all of them. the main 3, Scarface, Ferham, and Epsilon are hard to determine as maverick besides rebelling against the government.) All the humans were simply banished without harm and forbidden from returning to Giga City, and when Scarface appeared to challenge the Hunters, he didnt hurt anyone either. They didn't harm civilians, Human or Reploid. they only fought against those who tried to stop their goal. in other words, self defense. There is also no real indication that Epsilon would have actually launched big Force metal missile. The way I see it, it was just a threat.
Epsilon tried to Win X and Zero over nonviolently before fighting. Trying to get them to understand their Ideal. Shadow and Botos were pretty far from the goal though, just craving power. whats his name the triceratops was pretty bad himself. Being a sadist, and not a really nice guy.
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Holy crap, look at all those walls of text.
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has reploid racism been used in the series?
Dr. Weil says hello.
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Weil wasn't born until after most of this mess was cleared up. Still, I'm willing to bet most humans shared his sentiments, and those of Area Zero.
I wonder if Siggy and Lumi are dead for good...doubtful.
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Lumine is most definitely dead. How would he come back? He's not Sigma, he does not have the Virus.
also, the Humans? Take a look at the Government in the X series. They contradict themselves at every point when it comes to Reploids. X and Zero hold special interests, so they are never questioned, but Gate makes a Reploid just as analyzable as either of them, and it is feared and disposed of. Gate himself is shunned because they cannot understand his research. Games like X6 give very interesting insight onto how the Government views and treats Reploids. They were made from the start as slaves to the humans. Servants who would forever be with them. The perfect workers. Then, some rebell, and they create a military force to deal with them. Reploids are disposable, as more can be made.
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Reploids are able to determine right and wrong for themselves without the need for outside programmin, correct? If so, what's stopping them from non-violently establishing their own country? Like what Repliforce wanted, but done right?
Any who would think of it would be deemed maverick by the by now more-than-slightly paranoid community, even if they were pacifist like X. Under other circumstances, it might've worked.
Second: am I the only one who thinks that human intelligence took a sharp decline during 21XX? Creating robots that can perfectly mimic something as dangerous as Sigma, even if theoretically that shouldn't turn them evil, is a dumb move. Cue mass identity theft.
I dunno, there are reploid researchers, who's to say one of them groups didn't do it?
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Lumine is most definitely dead. How would he come back? He's not Sigma, he does not have the Virus.
Uh... taken a good look at X8's ending lately? You really think what happened there is normal for a Repliroid? Something completely non mechanical emerged from his corpse and put something inside of Axl; it is almost certain that he will be back.
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Doesnt mean anything... If anything, It has just affected Axl, maybe a catalyst for something. It is odd that in Command mission his copy ability has evolved to the lengths it has. Lumine's influence and the Newgens will show up ahain, but im not so sure about Lumine himself.
Posted on: July 08, 2009, 10:31:02 AM
Also, what do you propose of my hypothesis, Zan? About Axl?
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Doesnt mean anything... If anything, It has just affected Axl, maybe a catalyst for something. It is odd that in Command mission his copy ability has evolved to the lengths it has. Lumine's influence and the Newgens will show up ahain, but im not so sure about Lumine himself.
Thing is, you're stating that Lumine has no way to come back; he does. What happened there is completely out of the ordinary. Why would something non mechanical emerge from his body? For all we know, that is the very Virus you're saying they can't use. Remember, the New Generation might be immune to the negative influence of the Virus, but they also have Sigma's DNA; why would they not be able to make use of it?
About Axl?
Literally everything could have happened to Axl in the past... But, I would say Axl is more valuable than that; his Sigma Virus immunity is complete... I doubt they would risk losing that if they themselves produced it. There has been shown to be fear for unanalyzable robots, to the point of hunting them down, which is why I personally have taken a liken Rodrigo's assessment that Gate could be related. But that leads us to the same end; Axl being hunted down and saved by Red, leading to Red's lost eye.
However, I think there's much more to Axl than just that. He feels related to X and Zero; his true personality emerges during the hunt. This connection makes me think it's much more than the Copy Chip being a result of the study of X and Zero's data. Maybe Axl was once related to X and Zero, maybe Axl was once a hunter?
Also, the immense relation between the Copy Chip and X and Zero actually seems to rule out Gate.. he never quite analyzed X and Zero and he never obtained his dream of a Sigma Virus cure.. But what of Gate after X6? Of course, that brings us back to square one; what's Axl's lost memory and how did Red lose his eye?
Finally, another something of note is the scar on Axl's face.. it was said to be the most important aspect of him in the story after X7... so what is up with that scar?..
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I know a 4koma strip is not to be taken seriously, but-
http://www.drneko.com/scanlation/rmseries/rmx/koma/x7/index.php?Result_Set=10
and in any case are you saying Axl could have been a regular hunter who became a new gen?
Yknow, the Idea that he was based on study of X and Zero makes me think. what if he LITERALLY was made from their data by some unknown source? I mean, He obviously looks like an odd fusion of X and Zero, but what if he actually was?
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4koma strip
The character designers makes it seem like much more.. Take a look at the X7 OST translation below.
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CAPCOM INTERVIEW
This is the story of how Axl was born. I was planning on making a new character since I started this development. It was very hard to decide the details in the characterization and then only half a year ago…we decided to make this new character. We have to have some freshness (new) & also it has to be accepted by the Rockman X fans. I was so careful to this point, because of my effort, everything was done very well. Axl's trademark is the scar on his forehead. This scar was put on Axl's head at the very last moment.
There are no scars on the original design to tell you the truth….I forgot to order to have the scar included in Axl's character design. At the time we were almost finished with Axl's character design, I said …..
"Oh…oh…I forgot about Axl's scar!"
I was so sorry for the designers, but after the X7 story….when it comes to Axl, the scar on his forehead is probably the most important thing about him. I asked the designer to put the scar in the most outstanding place on his forehead. As for the gun…we decided to set the copy shot immediately but it was very hard to implement this design. In the game you can't really see it well, but we did the gun design again and again anyway.
"I bet you're not getting all this stuff I am talking about…..ha,ha,ha!"
So I put in lots of time and effort. I feel that Axl is my adorable child. Please give your love to him.
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As you can see on the X7 site, there are numerous Axl designs, some with broken helmets, but none with the scar on his face. As the 3d models reveal the full "X" scar is obscured by his helmet, I tend to see it like something of a birthmark. The 4koma might nicely explain why his helmet is undamaged even though his skin isn't, it would just far less important that it's implicated to be...
are you saying Axl could have been a regular hunter who became a new gen?
That's exactly what I'm saying, and I have a well known character in mind, I'd say what's known of his personality fits Axl nicely. Though people can't see it because of that character's cult status...
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Who? GBD? wow. he was just a disposable character though... for nothing but an awesome intro.
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You can´t compare Axl to GBD! GBD is waaay to awesome! >3<
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I can and I have.
he was just a disposable character though...
Well... pretty much everything's a disposable character back then... But the little guy had a slightly more expanded role in the manga, even if he never got close to a Cheval; he's a kid who looked up to X, sound familiar? Just revive him with a copy chip and there you have it; Axl.
Besides, this is the same game that managed to bring up such obscurities as Road Attackers and Road Riders in regards to a boss modeled after Crash Roadsters. Followed by its RPG sequel bringing out every obscure mechaniloid Capcom ever made for the X-series.
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Axl's actually a lot more complex than most people give him credit.
Anyway, can we at least agree that Sigma was evil, if only having a tenuous grasp at sanity?
And that the human government was filled with paranoid idiots who had no idea what they were doing?
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Axl's actually a lot more complex than most people give him credit.
No one denies that Axl is just as much a complex mystery as X or Zero...
Anyway, can we at least agree that Sigma was evil, if only having a tenuous grasp at sanity?
we've been through this. there is a very big difference between evil and insane. and Sigma was sane.
And that the human government was filled with paranoid idiots who had no idea what they were doing?
Paranoid? Maybe. Idiots? No. Don't know what they are doing? Definitely not. Its called special interests. take a gander into current politics some time. They fear what they feel could pose a risk to them, especially when such people like Gate are behind it, even before the Nightmare incident, Gate was shunned because of his ideas. He was very independent, very radical. Like Alia noted, She followed rules. He didn't. He was also brilliant. And his idea of the perfect reploid was to achieve X and Zero. He felt that being so complex that his creations were unanalyzable was the ultimate. And the government and his colleagues feared those creations, because of how Gate was. So they disposed of them just to be sure. they killed them in cold blood secretly, arranging "accidents" and then there was the issue of Shield Sheldon. i really doubt that was an accident that the hunters mistook his actions for being maverick.
This is the same government that like was said earlier, sealed off a portion of the ruins where X and Zero were found because of the ancient technology buried there, trespassing being an offense punishable by death.
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Now, how can we say that Sigma meddled with the copy chips,and not that the scientists who developed them were just incredibly stupid?
Sigma to X, on his "children":
ヤコブ計画は新世代型レプリロイドの設計段階から我が手の内にあったと言うことだ。
You could well say that the Jakob Project, from the very planning stages of the new generation repliroids, was all by my plan!
Sigma to Axl, same:
ヤコブ計画で産み出された新世代型レプリロイドの設計に干渉し、コピーチップに我がデータを刻んだのだ！
Because I intervened in the design of the new generation repliroids created for the Jakob Project, and engraved my data on the copy chips!
You can doubt Sigma's word if you like, I'm inclined to believe him. I think it certainly explains a lot.
"Insanity" and "Evil" are two mutually exclusive terms, Marshmallow.
I think there's actually quite a bit of overlap. Insanity is not really a medical term, in the vernacular it is often applied to people whose actions are clearly very dangerous to themselves and others and whose motives are indistinct. Sigma thinks on a totally different level than normal folks. Most law-abiding reploids would think, for instance, that to risk destroying all life on earth with a giant space colony is not a sane move. It's evil to cause such destruction, and he must be crazy to want to do it. If you understand, truly comprehend why good is good and why evil is evil, then any sane person would not want to do evil. Or at least, some people think so. Labeling someone as sane or insane is making a judgment on someone's thoughts and actions. If it makes sense to you, then it's sane, if not, then it's insane. Sigma doesn't think what he's doing is evil, and that's why to the likes of X, Zero and Axl he's insane. Sigma's got his reasons, but they're still insane reasons to some.
At best, Sigma wouldn't really meet the current legal definiton of the insanity plea in most countries, even some very severe behavioral disorders don't really meet the criteria. A case could be argued, that based on Sigma's lack of empathy and emotionally unbalanced behavior either by design or by viral infection, that he did not have the proper tools to interact in society and thus can not be held solely accountable for what occurred. His vision of himself as the evolutionary peak could be sited as delusional behavior from which his actions have stemmed. But I doubt someone who caused as much damage to the global populace would ever be forgiven no matter what circumstances, and that any judge or jury would accept that sort of plea, in our paradigm or in theirs. But that sense is more about letting him off the hook for his actions. "He's crazy," they'd say, but society demands that he should be held responsible nonetheless, and punished. For justice. Though really they might be better off trying to treat him, since putting him to death just tends to allow him to come back in some way or another. Holding him alive and trying to cure him might have been more fruitful, though still fraught with its own dangers at trying to do so. It's also dependent upon whether using the Mother Elf on Sigma would restore him to his former hunter self, or destroy him entirely.
Well, the body is most certainly his original one in a new design, saber and everything.
The body shares some distinctions with the X1 design overall, but are not congruent and have many minor differentiations, and some things seem more borrowed from other Sigma forms. The shoulder guards are the ones from his X1 cape rather than his normal body. The high rigid-framed collar is resembles the X5 body except in color. The arms are matched to Sigma's X3 form in color and style. The knee guards more closely resemble the X7 (or to some extent X4) Sigma ones than any other of his bodies, though it also resembles the knee guard styles of the guardroids and Vile V. And last but not least, it has the telltale eye scars.
From a moves perspective, the body doesn't have much in common with the X1 body outside the use of a beam sabre. The Copy Sigma and guardroid sigmas use many moves his X1 form never demonstrated. The Copy Sigma has more in common, fighting style wise, with X8's final Sigma body than any other single Sigma form. For those reasons, I think the X8 "plain" body is an amalgamation of aspects of previous forms incorporated with the latest technology with the intent of bringing about something even better. A Sigma body overclocked remix, for rockin' in the new world.
But when it comes down to it, the most vital point is that though they have Sigma's DNA, a connecting with the Virus is not required to achieve the same state of mind as Sigma.
But if they have Sigma's post-virus program, and the virus is what we can thank for his full-on evil attitude, then the virus was required, it's just that it was not a direct application. My reasoning is basically:
Sigma's heart is evil because of the virus; the New Gens are evil because Sigma's heart is evil; they are evil because Sigma's heart is evil because of the virus.
Instead of being directly infected by the virus themselves and being changed in their own individual way by it, they are infected with Sigma's virus-ridden logic, thus they are affected the exact same way that Sigma was affected by the virus. Instead of having a virus that brings out their own evil, they are sharing Sigma's evil. Effected by the effects of the effected. The virus is responsible at the base of it all, but it is applied in a completely vicarious manner, so they're possibly getting more along with it than any other virus infected individual before. They are infected with Sigma, the underlying virus code is an integral part of Sigma, and now an integral part of them too... It's hidden but never out of the equation. I think I'm talking in circles, but I'm at a loss to explain it any better.
Of course, we must also question who is behind the New Generation in general, however did the government come to acquire something that was once exclusive to Axl?
Without knowing who built Axl we can never answer with much certainty. Some shadowy secret government group could have built him, or perhaps the government was doing copy chip research already independently of whoever built Axl. Maybe when Axl joined the Hunters was when the government learned of its potential and used his data as a basis. Or maybe Sigma, having had at least past dealings with Axl's powers in Red Alert, brought some of that technology over somehow. Great big question mark.
It's also incorrect to assume that the X8 Mavericks have no reservations about what they're doing. Confront Dark Mantis as Axl sometime, he admits to being jealous of Axl's innocence.
I think he was actually poking fun of Axl's simplemindedness rather than showing any true regret. But, I don't disagree with the point that some new gens, particularly the boss ones with the stronger personalities, have slightly varying degrees of "Sigmasim." How much of Sigma's program has seemingly overshadowed their own. They aren't all 100% Sigma copies. Maybe even the Copy Sigma had some lingering hint of previous self.
Speaking of Axl, one has to ask how he fits into this. Where is the line drawn between Axl and the finalized New Gens?
Alia did do that analysis, but I don't really get whether the Sigma data she found when comparing Axl's copy chip and the irregulars' was a common feature in just the bad guys' copy chips, or in theirs and Axl's both. Lumine said that about prototypes not having the specs to do so, and presumably that is why Axl is not on the guest list for their new world party. If Axl is lacking the Sigma data that makes things easy. If he has it though, and for whatever reason just has yet to be effected, then more explanation is in serious order. Maybe he is somehow defective. Maybe his scars are a mark of his being a failed work.
Most all of the New Gens and Sigma are well aware of the fact that Axl has no potential to join them, so why?
Maybe because Sigma said so. Sigma doesn't seem to like Axl as much in this game as he did in X7. Might have something to do with the knocking him backwards off the highest tower of Crimson Palace. Or maybe just because he's not as much like the proud father as Sigma's other kids. The black sheep of the litter. But I'm inclined to think that Axl lacks the right Sigma data entirely, that Sigma was only involved in the Jakob Project New Gens, and Axl was the first Sigma had heard of copy chip abilities. But then, maybe it wasn't. If Axl is some kind of sleeper cell, you'd think he'd be activated by now... yet perhaps that's what Lumine tried to do.
The primary difference between Axl and the finished New Generation Reploids is that the copy ability was perfected. It's not so far a stretch to think that Axl's limitations (prior to Command Mission, anyway) are what denies him the ability to achieve the likeness with Sigma that the other New Gens do.
That makes sense too, and is possible.
There is such a thing as one who goes Maverick of their own accord, as Sigma outright states in MHX when he releases Vile. So the possibility cannot be denied, and the idea that Vile would share that theme with Sigma, Lumine, and the New Generation Reploids goes a long way to explaining his presence in X8.
I think the only thing that explains Vile's presence in X8 is his popularity. Dynamo seems just as willing to be Sigma's [sonic slicer] and likes following orders a lot more, but he wasn't chosen. Vile appears inexplicably as form "V" and the show goes on. The choice to revive him seems fairly arbitrary. Maybe Sigma just missed the little dickens.
Omega's personality is not Zero's original programming.
Not completely, true. Hey, I said "might." But Inti and Sigma both seem to see a potential link, even if you do not.
When a voice in Zero's head is encouraging him as he's about to hunt down Sigma in X6? Sounds like somebody was being played.
Maybe. But then, but then, maybe Isoc wasn't happy about the damage Sigma did to Zero during the end of X5. On the other hand, Sigma after being defeated was able to revive much more completely the next time, maybe defeating him in X6 did Sigma a huge favor.
Are we honestly to believe that Zero, and by extension Wily in X-series timeframe, wishes to remold the world when Wily sealed Zero until such time when he could challenge X? When after an allegiance with Sigma to unlock Zero's true potential, leaving the world in shambles as a side-effect, Wily simply drops off the face of the Earth? I don't buy that.
Isoc certainly gave Gate's new world order the old college try, so much that he put High Max's repairs ahead of capturing Zero. That he dropped off the face of the Earth afterwards is strange by all accounts, but maybe he'll be back again someday to make us wet our fanboy pants once more.
True enough, I recall the Ostro/Birdo mixup.
I was thinking more like the R4 credits getting the robot serial numbers messed up, or the X1 credits missing an enemy or two. I think the Rockman World 1-3 cast rolls missed a few enemies in theirs as well. It might be that they change some of that stuff after the credits are already finalized.
As for the X4 book quotes, given that X8 is supposed to be a revelation on a possibility that the Hunters, and the vast majority of the fanbase, left totally ignored, why is it anyone's surprise that older sources don't sync with it?
You mean, if it's a retcon? Then of course. Throw another contradiction into the pile. It well may be. I'm going to go on the good faith that it isn't, until proven that it is.
The virus, regardless of its effects on Sigma's judgment, was key to his role as leader of the rebellion. That he sics Vile on X in MHX on the sole grounds that he can go Maverick of his own accord says that such a phenomenon, while possible, is exceedingly rare.
Or just that it's hard to find one with that level of battle machismo on incredibly short notice that hasn't already been hunted. Well, maybe not that hard, since he was found. Hard to find two though, that seems about right.
Sigma needed the virus solely for gathering support if nothing else, to say nothing of giving himself near immortality.
Though as far as his first rebellion goes, the extent to which he actually put the virus to use in gathering supporters is little indicated and entirely unknown. How Sigma came about his virus-enabled death cheat is even less clear. Maybe Serges had something to do with explaining that, since he built Sigma's X2 body for him. But it seems you don't even have to have mysterious virus powers to be revived, it never kept ol' Vile down. So even that need is somewhat loose.
If he decides that Reploids would develop ideally without humans, how far is he willing to go to see it happen?
But, why would he decide that? The greatest advancements in robotics up to that point were made by humans, like Light, Cain and Wily. And while unbeknown to him, over a century later, would still be with researchers like Weil and Ciel's lineage. Human ingenuity advances the state of the world just as much as reploid. Human reliance on reploids pretty much guarantees both the need to continue production and to improve upon it. Sigma is revered even as a guardian of humanity. So trying to kill them off... seems not so much logical, as simply hate inspired. And if there's one thing that an evil virus should do, it's inspire hate.
Reploids are able to determine right and wrong for themselves without the need for outside programmin, correct? If so, what's stopping them from non-violently establishing their own country? Like what Repliforce wanted, but done right?
Probably a lot of things. For one, very bad historical precedence. For another, the space and the means to do so. How do they go about claiming an area? Tell all the humans they have to leave? And put up some "no fleshbags allowed" signs to ward off wandering humans? Some kind of force would probably have to be involved. And certainly funds, resources, required technology, how would such be gained? Furthermore implied in the concept's own nature, it is invariably racist to say that reploids need their own nation at all. Are humans really that insufferable to reploids? What exactly is the need for reploids not to be around humans? And if they feel that strongly about it, what lengths will they go to keep away the humans they can't stand? How could they hope to maintain good diplomatic relations with the powers that be? To be your own country, you'd also need to be recognized by the current governing bodies. I doubt such bodies, already in supposed control of much of the world, are eager to make room for a new nation whose primary political platform is total race segregation and human devaluation. The only way that trust and respect can be maintained is ideally for both to find a way to coexist together, as they were created to.
Take a look at the Government in the X series. They contradict themselves at every point when it comes to Reploids. X and Zero hold special interests, so they are never questioned, but Gate makes a Reploid just as analyzable as either of them, and it is feared and disposed of. Gate himself is shunned because they cannot understand his research.
Refuting opinions ahead: It isn't really clear whether it was the government's decision to destroy all Gate's creations, or simply the bosses of the research team, and it's certainly impossible to say whether those figures were humans, reploids, or both. Jealousy of fellow researchers may have certainly played a part, but Gate and his creations' actions make them easy to resent at best, and extremely dangerous at worst. Most of Gate's creations brought about tragedies through their recklessness. Gate was creating reploids who were not law abiding, and essentially refused to take any measures to try to reign in thier behavior. No one else had the understanding required to do so. To their credit, the research recognized that Gate's works were moving too much too soon and presented too many dangers. If Gate and his creations had simply compromised slightly and gone along with the rules, they could have been touted on the highest levels. Gate probably would have gotten his hands on that X and Zero data that he dreamed of. But someone who won't play by the rules and with no regard for safety or proper channels never had much of a future. They gave Gate ample opportunity to change, Gate himself was never targeted to be terminated. He simply would not budge, and so some decision had to be made about his renegade works. A scientific genius, but foolish both ethically and politically. Both a brilliant idealist devoted to his craft, and a naive self-centered child, Gate is a prime example of power in the wrong hands. One might think they were too lenient in allowing him to leave, but even with his strong parting words Gate seemed genuinely sad by the extent that maverick warfare had damaged the planet. He may have meant no harm to the world, on the contrary he wanted to make it a better place, he just seems not to know how to go about it. Finding that Zero DNA steeped in virus being what really pushed him over to the dark side.
Literally everything could have happened to Axl in the past...
R20's designer comments from Tatsuya Yoshikawa mention that in Axl's background profile, he was not always a "good person" (hence looking dark and edgy). So I guess something like this: Axl is created for something bad. Maybe to retrieve X and Zero's DNA. Red first encountered Axl when he was a bad guy, and discovers Axl's copy power. Maybe Axl copies Red. Axl and Red fight. Axl damages Red's eye. Red gives Axl his scars. Axl is knocked out. Red tries to have Axl studied to understand the copy power. Axl awakes a friendly innocent child without any memory of his former self. Red decides to never bring up the past with him. Red builds up Red Alert based on Axl's abilities. Axl feels a strange connection to X and Zero he can't explain, without realizing he may have been meant to do them harm. Later, Lumine deposits something in Axl. This something makes Axl resemble Lumine and increases his power. It also heals Axl's scar. Axl starts to remember things... becomes a bad guy like he was before...? X9 happens? Classic case of blunt head trauma turning a bad guy good, not too unlike Zero, but without spreading some kooky virus. That could all be way off the mark though.
EDIT: Where did you get that Mirage Claw attack name?
X8 Japanese guidebooks.
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From what I remember, not all of Gates creations acted recklessly, some were simply too good, or were just "not good enough" Or in Sheldon's case, Mistaken for Maverick. Yammark was incompetent and disorderly and accidentally burned down the forest. But instead of being tried for it and fired or what have you, he was murdered in cold blood by sabotage.
Rainy Turtloid didn't do anything wrong. He was part of the water purification team. He was perfect for the job due to his strong shielding from Acid rain and terrible water pollution. But they were paranoid and afraid of his strong defense. Gate opposed the idea to weaken him, and logically, you wouldn't want to chop your childs arm off all because he was too buff without a very good reason. In fact, we dont know much of how he died. Just that he "Died to save Gate" which could mean many things.
Wolfang didnt do anything wrong either. He protected his team from Mavericks and defeated them, but his team was still a casualty. he was disposed of by Gate's enemies. "researchers who oppose Gate schemed to dispose of him"
If anything, the way they were disposed of was very shady, making it seem like accidents. It most likely was his enemies from the workplace, when I think of it. The Government would have held their judgements in a different manner other than "scheming" and causing "accidents" like some mafia.
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You're right, not all of Gate's reploids were truly deserving of their fates. Some bad eggs seemed to have ruined it for the rest. Gate's indulgence of them didn't help matters. I wouldn't mind reading over X6's Japanese dialogue to see what parts of the investigators' pasts might make a more complete picture. If someone could get screen caps or something, that'd help...
I think that X7 OST translation is also lacking. I thought there was a part that talked about them not being sure what buttons to map Axl's copy shot on or something in there too. Did Zan crop it for relevance?
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the there was Heatnix. We can assume he was arrogant, as he didnt care what happened to the weaker ones, and they all died.
actually, I dont think any of them were deserving of their fates. They could have been dealt with in a civilized manner, not disposed of like it was the godfather or something.
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I wouldn't mind reading over X6's Japanese dialogue to see what parts of the investigators' pasts might make a more complete picture. If someone could get screen caps or something, that'd help...
I could certainly arrange that, if it means it would get done.
No, I'm not meaning to sound bitchy here.
Edit: be sure to check your inbox.
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I wouldn't mind reading over X6's Japanese dialogue [...] If someone could get screen caps or something, that'd help...
I think that X7 OST translation is also lacking. [..]
I could certainly arrange that, if it means it would get done.
♪ DON'T MAKE A MONKEY OF ME! oh wait, wrong game~ >0<
I did put up the full Japanese script for X1 and X2 on RPM and still working on more of them.
And I did send some end-game video clips of X8 to marshmallow man a while back. For the future, video is better.
For the benefit of the whole MM community, I'll gladly do it, if you have the patience to wait a few hours/days. o.o
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You can doubt Sigma's word if you like, I'm inclined to believe him. I think it certainly explains a lot.
Well, Sigma could have been slightly clearer in the English game >.>
Speaking of things a bit vague, do we have any indication of how Axl figured he was a prototype, or did that just kind of happen? It's a bit of an odd transition from there being just Axl, and then a whole generation of them.
I think the only thing that explains Vile's presence in X8 is his popularity. Dynamo seems just as willing to be Sigma's [sonic slicer] and likes following orders a lot more, but he wasn't chosen. Vile appears inexplicably as form "V" and the show goes on. The choice to revive him seems fairly arbitrary. Maybe Sigma just missed the little dickens.
Two things about Dynamo are of note; though he worships Sigma, he's still in it for the money and he seems to have grown quite weary of fighting with the dangerous X and Zero. He and VAVA are just innately different, that is why VAVA just fits so much better within the events of X8.
But, why would he decide that?
Isn't it a natural conclusion? Sigma is the first Repliroid, yet none would exceed him for years to come. Only a bunch of mysterious centuries' old robots could... Thing is, even though he might come to the conclusion, he might not at all feel like putting it to the test. Perhaps he would simply try to promote Repliroid evolution within the confines of human society? He would most certainly conclude that technology advances best in times of war, but he already has a group of Hunters that need to be kept in the best shape possible; he doesn't need to incite war himself.
Sigma is revered even as a guardian of humanity. So trying to kill them off... seems not so much logical, as simply hate inspired. And if there's one thing that an evil virus should do, it's inspire hate.
I wouldn't say hate... Much more a complete absence of compassion. Sigma doesn't seem to hate humans, he just doesn't care. Also, his plans don't just hurt humans; it's an evolutionary arms race that involves humans and Repliroids alike.
And put up some "no fleshbags allowed" signs to ward off wandering humans?
That worked so well when Epsilon tried it...
Red gives Axl his scars.
If we went by the concept art for Axl, I certainly find this feasible. But as it is right now, that scar is in an impossible to hit place, requiring even two attacks...
It also heals Axl's scar.
Remind me, does White Axl have the scar?
I think that X7 OST translation is also lacking. I thought there was a part that talked about them not being sure what buttons to map Axl's copy shot on or something in there too. Did Zan crop it for relevance?
"Robonyanya" did the translation, I don't think she did more...
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I don't know about all this, considering that Sigma was trying to get Reploids to evolve to the next level and using the Virus as a means to an end, I don't know if we could really call that evoltuioon since it involves gradual change not abrupt change. Speaking of the Virus, what role does it actually play in Sigma's "evolution"? It seems to me that it only "enlightened" Sigma to the realities of the world around him and how Sigma is only using the Virus to achieve the aim of evolution but what does that mean for other Reploids? What does the Virus, Zero, Next Gens and Wily play in all this I wonder?
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Off-topic: Rod and marshmallow, I'm gonna save both of you some trouble and give you pixel-perfect video clips of the Rockman X6 cutscenes. This is a taste of what I have for the moment. (http://forum.rockmanpm.com/index.php?topic=2146.0) ^^
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I'm not familiar with CM, except for bits and pieces of the story.
How successful was Epsilon's city before X and co. ruined things? Oh, and I hate to reopen old wounds, but did anyone else notice that Sigma become more obsessed with killing X and Zero as the series went on?
Lastly, if Lumi wasn't corrupted by Siggy's virus and was instead warped by his DNA, then why wasn't he loyal to the Sigma?
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How successful was Epsilon's city before X and co. ruined things?
He had to deal with a resistance that disagreed with his rebellion. And he had the Federation trying to attack him from every side.
Lastly, if Lumi wasn't corrupted by Siggy's virus and was instead warped by his DNA, then why wasn't he loyal to the Sigma?
Sigma's DNA doesn't make them his underlings, it makes them his equals.
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If we went by the concept art for Axl, I certainly find this feasible. But as it is right now, that scar is in an impossible to hit place, requiring even two attacks...
Actually, combat wise and angle of attacks, there are two ways he could have gotten that scar. If someone was to be around 1 meter away and then crouch, and aim up towards a blow towards the head while Axl would be looking down at them, it would be possible to land a hit around the eye to nose bridge area and avoid being fatal -if- Axl were to move backwards so that said attack would skim him and damage the lower brow of his helmet.
Or, alternatively, an attack could have been right towards the head and the helmet shattered after taking the most of the blow and inflicting a flesh wound still. Still. Getting a scar in an area like that would dictate that someone -luckily- lived. With the right amount of force to that area, it could be a killing blow, and even then, it's a shallow area where even if you were to wipe your face off, you would only bleed more since it's a thin layer of skin and tissue... And since Reploids can apparently bleed...
that hit -had- to suck for Axl.
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One blow I could understand, but two right on top of eachother? The odds are extreme, it looks very much like a designed thing.
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Anything's possible in a video game.
Plus, you've seen the things Zero's done with his saber. Is two diagonal cuts in that spot so hard to believe?
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Who said it has to be an external attack? What about the possibility of it being a burn scar? Of a mark from an enemy of sorts? Each are just as possible.
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its still external then
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External Attack vs External occurrence. Attack as in purpose. Occurrence as in accident/etc.
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True.
Why won't they tell us these things!? I'm sick of pointless speculation; I want to know...
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Some things are intentionally left for Fans to 'fill in'. This is not uncommon. And has been practiced quite a bit in the MegaMan series timeline. Something are left unsaid to draw Fans into the story. So they can fill in their scenarios to fill specific events.
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Yeah, but there are also cases in which fans throw any trace of common sense over board and start making stuff up to fulfill their grimdark and edgy fanboy dreams.
Mega Man is no exception.
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Well, I bet if they understood the "real" story of the X series, then they'd hate it. So it's just as well.
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Especially since they keep the sourcebooks in Japan to quite possibily irritate foreign Mega Man fans. >_< Although that doesn't necessarily mean we cannot get sourcebooks or don't anyone know people who not only have it and read it but understand it enough to help us gain some clarity on it.
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External Attack vs External occurrence. Attack as in purpose. Occurrence as in accident/etc.
For some reason I can't shake the image of Axl tripping and landing face-first on a cookie cutter.
The body shares some distinctions with the X1 design overall, but are not congruent and have many minor differentiations, and some things seem more borrowed from other Sigma forms.
I notice the X3 arms and that is hard to ignore. Nevertheless, the art style change with X8 makes nit-picking details of the body very, very shaky. There is no image as to how previous Sigma bodies, X1's in particular, fit within that style. There's also the question of why a conglamorate-body didn't draw further suspicion, what the hell is the DNA of Sigma's later bodies doing on file? The body, in physical appearance at least, seems to lean more strongly toward X1 than any other. Nevertheless, you do bring up a valid viewpoint.
One more question mark to throw onto the pile.
Instead of being directly infected by the virus themselves and being changed in their own individual way by it, they are infected with Sigma's virus-ridden logic, thus they are affected the exact same way that Sigma was affected by the virus. Instead of having a virus that brings out their own evil, they are sharing Sigma's evil. Effected by the effects of the effected. The virus is responsible at the base of it all, but it is applied in a completely vicarious manner, so they're possibly getting more along with it than any other virus infected individual before. They are infected with Sigma, the underlying virus code is an integral part of Sigma, and now an integral part of them too... It's hidden but never out of the equation. I think I'm talking in circles, but I'm at a loss to explain it any better.
Well, that is a hell of a better explanation for viral involvement than I've ever heard previously. It's plausible, though I don't buy it as certainty.
One aspect of X8's presentation that continues to linger in my head is the early reveal of Sigma's copy body. X specifically asks Alia about it, and she doesn't seem to consider it unusual, or threatening. You'd think that the possibility of second-hand corruption such as that would have been taken into consideration there, what with how infamous the maverick virus is, and the fact that they have partial-hindsight in that something has obviously gone wrong with the allegedly infallible. But that's an oddity, not an outright contradiction.
Alia did do that analysis, but I don't really get whether the Sigma data she found when comparing Axl's copy chip and the irregulars' was a common feature in just the bad guys' copy chips, or in theirs and Axl's both. Lumine said that about prototypes not having the specs to do so, and presumably that is why Axl is not on the guest list for their new world party. If Axl is lacking the Sigma data that makes things easy. If he has it though, and for whatever reason just has yet to be effected, then more explanation is in serious order. Maybe he is somehow defective. Maybe his scars are a mark of his being a failed work.
The "defective" bit reminds me of ZXA. But yeah, we could definitely stand more details there. For as much a potential impact on the storyline as X8 has, explanation was definitely not its strong point.
I think the only thing that explains Vile's presence in X8 is his popularity. Dynamo seems just as willing to be Sigma's [sonic slicer] and likes following orders a lot more, but he wasn't chosen. Vile appears inexplicably as form "V" and the show goes on. The choice to revive him seems fairly arbitrary. Maybe Sigma just missed the little dickens.
That would have pretty much been my mindset before MHX, but I think there is a reason they touched on that. Vile was depicted as a loose cannon in X3, so his wailing on X1 mavs wasn't something I found all that unusual. However explanations for his behavior, his motivations in particular (or even the fact that he has any), were never really explored before, so to me, that was of particular interest.
But Inti and Sigma both seem to see a potential link, even if you do not.
However you could say the same thing about X, who has no direct connection. Sigma's interested in X's potential to advance Reploids, and has taken stabs at working X and/or X's data in his favor a few times since (X3 and X7). Inti, meanwhile, was ready to have the original X as the genocidal lunatic you had to kill in Z1.
Sigma sees in Zero power, and power is potential to evolve. And Inti really gave a generic BS/no comment answer when asked. In all honesty I don't think they follow detail that well.
On the other hand, Sigma after being defeated was able to revive much more completely the next time, maybe defeating him in X6 did Sigma a huge favor.
Although speculation, I'd wager that Sigma could complete his revival in due time regardless. Three weeks is a pretty short timeframe for Sigma to be back and kicking already.
Isoc certainly gave Gate's new world order the old college try, so much that he put High Max's repairs ahead of capturing Zero.
He's played his lot with Gate in the interest of recovering Zero, and Gate had already noticed Isoc's obsession, so Isoc knows he has to be more cautious. At that point he probably just had to play the role through, rather than risk severing connections with Gate too early.
You mean, if it's a retcon? Then of course. Throw another contradiction into the pile. It well may be. I'm going to go on the good faith that it isn't, until proven that it is.
Well, perhaps. I'm reluctant to use the word "retcon" as MegaMan fans tend to equate that to simply throwing away the past, which isn't what happened here (not like X5/X6's three years/three weeks). Rather they are simply exploring a possibility that has not been previously addressed; previous sources were simply written in that context. So that is one thing we could be looking at. Another is the line between evil and Reploid superiority, as I mentioned later in that post, and how the virus may fit with one but not the other. In that case we'd be looking at not a retcon but rather some necessary splitting hairs.
Though as far as his first rebellion goes, the extent to which he actually put the virus to use in gathering supporters is little indicated and entirely unknown. How Sigma came about his virus-enabled death cheat is even less clear. Maybe Serges had something to do with explaining that, since he built Sigma's X2 body for him. But it seems you don't even have to have mysterious virus powers to be revived, it never kept ol' Vile down. So even that need is somewhat loose.
As usual, lack of detail is true. However the lack of information on the virus is to be expected as its existence wasn't public knowledge back then. Sigma, in the original X1, does deliver an end-of-game message that he will return.
Vile, however, hasn't been reviving on his own, or at least he didn't in X3. X8 doesn't seem to find the notable handicap of his being dead to be worth mentioning.
A possible untold sidestory in the interim (before X7, due to Axl not knowing him) would be my best guess. If we're to take "V" as being a roman numeral (Zan tells me some japanese source states so, but I myself am not sure), we're likely be missing two Vile forms somewhere along the line.
On the other hand, Vile self-revives/death-fakes his way through the final X8 encounter, so who knows what was going on there.
But, why would he decide that? The greatest advancements in robotics up to that point were made by humans, like Light, Cain and Wily. And while unbeknown to him, over a century later, would still be with researchers like Weil and Ciel's lineage. Human ingenuity advances the state of the world just as much as reploid. Human reliance on reploids pretty much guarantees both the need to continue production and to improve upon it. Sigma is revered even as a guardian of humanity. So trying to kill them off... seems not so much logical, as simply hate inspired. And if there's one thing that an evil virus should do, it's inspire hate.
As Zan said it's more a lack of feeling than hated. Whatever value human ingenuity has over a Reploid's is something very intangible that Sigma may well not acknowledge. There is, after all, such a thing as Reploid researchers (see Gate). He may consider the greater influence of emotions among humans to be a hindrance as he at first believed with X. They're certainly physically inferior, and if Reploids can be just as cunning and intelligent, what need is there for humans any longer? Why must Reploids waste time, energy, and numbers protecting them?
Sigma is in essence exercising survival of the fittest. Reploids came into existence thanks to humans, they were necessary to establish Reploids as a respectable power. But once Reploids have grown to the point of being able to dispose of that crutch, why shouldn't they?
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For some reason I can't shake the image of Axl tripping and landing face-first on a cookie cutter.
I left out the detail for a reason... Think of Axl being left for dead, tripping and landing on his back, or for some reason on his back face up... With liquid metal or something dripping onto his forehead and splitting at the nose bridge. Anything of the like not purpose is an accident. Not simple misfortunes.
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In fact, we dont know much of how he died. Just that he "Died to save Gate" which could mean many things.
Turns out to be a tactful way of saying suicide. Turtloid ripped off his own shell and died so that Gate could not be punished for refusing the orders to weaken him. Thanks both to Vixy and Rodrigo for the screen caps, you guys rock!
Speaking of things a bit vague, do we have any indication of how Axl figured he was a prototype, or did that just kind of happen? It's a bit of an odd transition from there being just Axl, and then a whole generation of them.
That transition seems as abrupt as Vile's reappearance. I'll dig around, but I haven't come across anything to explain.
Two things about Dynamo are of note; though he worships Sigma, he's still in it for the money and he seems to have grown quite weary of fighting with the dangerous X and Zero. He and VAVA are just innately different, that is why VAVA just fits so much better within the events of X8.
A self proclaimed mercenary would certainly make sense, though we never really see him get paid, and I can't help but wonder where he was planning on spending all his money when that colony comes crashing down. I had thought he was probably going to get paid in riches and glory when the world was finally Sigma's.
I wouldn't say hate... Much more a complete absence of compassion. Sigma doesn't seem to hate humans, he just doesn't care. Also, his plans don't just hurt humans; it's an evolutionary arms race that involves humans and Repliroids alike.
You can believe what you want, but I don't think anyone declares war on an entire race that they're simply indifferent to. A total absence of humanity is a requirement of his utopia every time he plots. Never subjugation or enslavement. I do believe that for him humanity represents both the scapegoat for slower than desired reploid advancement and everything wrong in the current world in general. However, I don't think these views are strongly logical or accurate.
If we went by the concept art for Axl, I certainly find this feasible. But as it is right now, that scar is in an impossible to hit place, requiring even two attacks...
The helmet could have been repaired afterward, although it may also be possible that if Axl was transformed when the scars were received, the scars would be reflected on his skin when he changed back. I think Red's skill with his double ended scythe, twirled for rapid successive strikes across the face could be the perfect thing to make that "X".
Remind me, does White Axl have the scar?
He doesn't, and the official X8 guide goes so far as to mention it in its description of white Axl's powers, as if it effected gameplay somehow.
Why won't they tell us these things!? I'm sick of pointless speculation; I want to know...
They'd really rather we discuss it endlessly. Somehow mysteries are often more appealing than knowing the answer to something. But there reaches a point where too many mysteries becomes "who cares anymore..." If X9 comes around, I do hope they do the honorable thing, and either explain things proper, or apologize like Turtloid.
One aspect of X8's presentation that continues to linger in my head is the early reveal of Sigma's copy body. X specifically asks Alia about it, and she doesn't seem to consider it unusual, or threatening. You'd think that the possibility of second-hand corruption such as that would have been taken into consideration there, what with how infamous the maverick virus is, and the fact that they have partial-hindsight in that something has obviously gone wrong with the allegedly infallible.
Dense protagonist syndrome all around. Alia's been around Axl for a while now, but seem to be little familiar with New Gens in general. A bit like how they've known from the beginning that all the incidents had something to do with the Jakob Project, but they don't postulate on it until after Sigma pretty much calls them up and tells them his plan. I think Alia saw the Sigma data there, but doesn't understand how the Copy Chip is using it. Her agreeing with Lumine's earlier statement that just copying bodies shouldn't effect brain function drives home that just copying bodies isn't what's going on. They're copying way more.
However you could say the same thing about X, who has no direct connection. Sigma's interested in X's potential to advance Reploids, and has taken stabs at working X and/or X's data in his favor a few times since (X3 and X7). Inti, meanwhile, was ready to have the original X as the genocidal lunatic you had to kill in Z1.
I don't really follow. X's potential for misguidedness was always a factor, and acknowledged by Light from the get-go. Not really fair to call X or what would become Copy-X genocidal though, unlike Sigma and the humans, Copy X never planned to destroy all reploids. Humans need reploids. He just saw no problem with sacrificing the more expendable ones so that humans could maintain maximum comfort. Still murderous, still racist, but not genocidal.
And Inti really gave a generic BS/no comment answer when asked.
Seeing as how the questions were asked and answered from within Inti, I think it clear they wanted to bring up the point and were quick to express the possibility of it. I see it in much the same vein as Inafune's "maybe, maybe not" discussion of Sagesse in R20. They want fans to see the potential connections, but they don't want to tell you straight out. And for that matter, it's license for fans to go willy nilly as they like. They are gluttons for such evil.
He's played his lot with Gate in the interest of recovering Zero, and Gate had already noticed Isoc's obsession, so Isoc knows he has to be more cautious. At that point he probably just had to play the role through, rather than risk severing connections with Gate too early.
Any connection to Gate is only important if Isoc wants something from him, or wants to help him. If what Isoc wanted was solely to get his hands on Zero and kickstart the next round of Light bot vs Wily bot, then Gate just became useless. Thus I think Isoc's plans are more multi-faceted. Zero beating X is good. Dominating the world, also good.
Vile, however, hasn't been reviving on his own, or at least he didn't in X3.
Sigma was revived by the Counter Hunters in X2, so if he already had them as backup for his plans, he didn't really need the virus to survive. It may only help ensure minimal data loss and expedite the process, or something.
If we're to take "V" as being a roman numeral (Zan tells me some japanese source states so, but I myself am not sure), we're likely be missing two Vile forms somewhere along the line.
Guess I'll corroborate then, the "V" is said to stand for "Pente," from the Greek for 5.
Sigma is in essence exercising survival of the fittest. Reploids came into existence thanks to humans, they were necessary to establish Reploids as a respectable power. But once Reploids have grown to the point of being able to dispose of that crutch, why shouldn't they?
I could think of some reasons, but I doubt they would have held much sway with Sigma...
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Well, most of this is getting into differing interpretation, not much left to argue with/comment on. But here it goes.
I don't really follow. X's potential for misguidedness was always a factor, and acknowledged by Light from the get-go. Not really fair to call X or what would become Copy-X genocidal though, unlike Sigma and the humans, Copy X never planned to destroy all reploids. Humans need reploids. He just saw no problem with sacrificing the more expendable ones so that humans could maintain maximum comfort. Still murderous, still racist, but not genocidal.
Pardon the vocab slip-up. Racial mass-murder, but with the privelaged few remaining cozy.
My point is that such links in evil potential do not constitute a concrete link in terms of character relation. Said potential is of course all that Sigma sees in Zero, as he never lived to see Omega. Sigma is interested in ushering in a new world, and he sees in Zero a hidden power which he believes can be used to that end. That does not mean that Zero himself, Awakened or no, is interested in such things. And never over the course of the X-series did he show such an interest.
Seeing as how the questions were asked and answered from within Inti, I think it clear they wanted to bring up the point and were quick to express the possibility of it. I see it in much the same vein as Inafune's "maybe, maybe not" discussion of Sagesse in R20. They want fans to see the potential connections, but they don't want to tell you straight out. And for that matter, it's license for fans to go willy nilly as they like. They are gluttons for such evil.
I don't consider, "maybe, maybe not" answers to be intended to encourage either view point. I consider them a general reluctance by any story writer to write themselves into an unnecessary corner. It preserves flexibility for future projects.
In a way, the whole "did Sigma rebel of his own will" discussion is the perfect case-in-point. Some sources left ambiguity, some didn't. All can fit with X8, but those that left some uncertainty have an easier time doing so.
To further the point we have had lots, and lots of experience with Inticreates' concepts not matching their final results. A lot of that went down in MMZOCW. X going villainous, the Three Keys, what the Guardians were doing during Z4. So even if they did at some point consider a link, it would still say very little as to the finalized events.
Any connection to Gate is only important if Isoc wants something from him, or wants to help him. If what Isoc wanted was solely to get his hands on Zero and kickstart the next round of Light bot vs Wily bot, then Gate just became useless.
Can that decision be made on the battlefield, though? Is it acceptable to risk missing something in the moment? Isoc isn't in any hurry, as long as he knows Zero is kicking, and High Max is no threat to him, he's willing to wait. He claims to be capable of capturing Zero whenever he wants. He could be curious as to what all Gate has accomplished, not only with Zero but also with Sigma, if by chance he is still carrying a grudge. Is he certain whether or not other Hunters can interfere if he moves for a capture now? There are tons of reasons such a decision needs to be made with a cool head.
There's no telling what Isoc's doing behind the scenes, and therefore no telling how ready he is. He does, eventually, abandon his position with Gate, so it's hard to read too much into when. Especially when the precise timing isn't known; never do we see Isoc active after that battle. There's no telling when his body collapsed.
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As little as we know about Toilet-Paper head, anything's possible there.
Is it still possible for Zero to Awaken again if he gets reinfected?
And am I correct in saying Lumine was immune to the virus, and yet still rebelled against humanity because Sigma's DNA warped his mind to Sigma's line of thinking?
Lastly, is Axl immune to the Sigma Virus too, or just the finished newgens?
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Is it still possible for Zero to Awaken again if he gets reinfected?
Zero never awakened in the actual storyline. He grew Stronger with the Virus, thus making X and Life savor think he was Maverick, but he never actually awakened. the same way the actual events of X2 are that X got all of Zeor's parts and Zero fought his Copy.
And am I correct in saying Lumine was immune to the virus, and yet still rebelled against humanity because Sigma's DNA warped his mind to Sigma's line of thinking?
you are exactly right.
Lastly, is Axl immune to the Sigma Virus too, or just the finished newgens?
he is just as immune as the New gens.
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I miss when we could just blame the maverick virus. Now everythings all grey area
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If Lumine was corrupted by Sigma's DNA instead of his virus, then wasn't the result the same as if he had been simply corrupted by the virus in the first place?
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Not really. The virus corrupts Reploids and makes them easy to control, though at times drives them nuts so it's not always the best option for stealthy operations. The shpiel with Sigma's DNA and the New Gens basically makes them Sigma's equals. They are not under his control, hence Lumine plotting against him, but they do share the same ideals of a "new world," which Reploids under infection tend to not blabber about.
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So that's what Lumine meant when they could go Maverick at will? They could basically take on Sigma's persona and mannerisms at any moment of their choosing, and rebel against humanity?
Who was stupid enough to build these guys in the first place? Otacon wasn't this dumb...
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Who was stupid enough to build these guys in the first place?
Sigma himself.
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He kinda stated that before the fight... calling the new gen his children
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Sigma, by whatever means, interfered with the project. Or maybe he insinuated it in the first place.
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That makes sense; Sigma's always been a genius when it comes to manipulating people; sociopathic, borderline insane, maybe, but highly intelligent. I doubt that's what happened, but it makes sense.
For all we know, Sigma may have shoved his Dna data in the mix when no one was looking...
If Lumine survived, does that make him the new maverick leader?
Oh, and when did Sigma give up his immortality?
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The reasoning behind Sigma being gone isn't really explained, although that aspect of the story was announced well prior to the game's release. Based on preview trailers and Zero's ending, Lumine seemed certain that Sigma wouldn't return, but apparently that part of his speech was lost in translation.
Speculation is that Sigma dumped all of his viral energies into his final body, achieving a significant power boost over previous forms. Other speculation is that the moon, being an isolated environment, with Sigma's only followers being viral-immune, left Sigma with nowhere for his consciousness to escape to.
Lumine's status is unknown. If he survived at all it would most likely be through his attack on Axl. But we don't know what happens to Axl after X8, only that he at some point recovers (and X doesn't believe his damage to be fatal anyway), since he is in Command Mission.
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I don't understand the "thinness of virus" logic anyway. Every particle of virus contains the entire program, that's the whole point, and if it's capable of replicating when there's a lot of it, why not when there's a little of it?
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Simple. he needs a lot of it to sustain himself. In X5 the aaame thing happened. what im unsure about is this 'revival program" and how it relates to the virus and how it wasnt able to activate on account of too little virus...
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The issue isn't "thinness", it's there being absolutely nothing left.
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The isolation theory may actually have some merit, as long as X, Zero, and Axl are still immune to the virus by X9.
Wasn't X originally immune to the Sigma Virus?
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The issue isn't "thinness", it's there being absolutely nothing left.
This works for the moon (although it's exceedingly stupid of someone we've agreed is at least cunning to leave no backup plan), but not for X5.
Also, isn't Zero still a carrier?
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We don't know how fast Zero spreads the Virus. And in X5, Sigma first spreads it on a global scale, then uses the Colony Virus to convert it to Zero Virus, only to get himself killed over and over again.
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Zero being a carrier was the sole reason Sigma survived for X6, so I must admit that one had me raising an eyebrow. On the other hand there is an off chance his body saw some modification during the X6 revival. Hard to say since so much was going on behind-the-scenes in that one.
I'm still inclined to believe the whole "Sigma fighting you with his viral energy" shpiel. He's no stranger to taking losses against X and Zero, and is largely indifferent to it as can be seen in X2, X4, X6, and X7. In X8 there was a major shift in his attitude, him having the audacity to refer to X and co. as "powerless". For somebody who "died" with a laugh for half the series, that's pretty odd.
Recall what we know about the Sigma Virus and its derivatives from X2, X3, X5, and X8. Ordinarily it requires a vaccine to fight, but when it's power output in the substance world goes high enough, it becomes vulnerable to normal weaponry (as in X2, and also see the Nightmare Virus). If Sigma focused his power for a hail-Mary, he'd have left the virus vulnerable as a result. Isolation only further shoots him in the foot, as it leaves no escape.
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But in X4 he blew up in space... The only thing I can hypothesize for his X5 revival, is that he was able to send his virus to earth somehow via inal weapon before it fully blew up, Maybe he transmitted it or something? theres a lot of cyberspace connections between something like Final Weapon and Earth. Or, his followers came back for him... I can't. I dont see how he survived. X8 should be no different in that regard. in X4, NONE outside of X/Zero survived Final Weapon... And Somehow, I dont think Sigma would hitch a ride with the likes of them. Though it IS possible that he used the shuttle somehow.
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Why is it so hard to believe Sigma has a backup body stored in final weapon with a convenient shuttle for the escape?
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Why is it so hard to believe Sigma has a backup body stored in final weapon with a convenient shuttle for the escape?
Well, I don't know about everyone else but it seemed that Sigma was truly killed at the time and I couldn't believe that Sigma had another body within the Final Weapon to escape with.
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Why is it so hard to believe Sigma has a backup body stored in final weapon with a convenient shuttle for the escape?
Because there is very little to support it outside of a speck of Light shooting from Final Weapon to Earth? Which could very well just be for the effect of the character shooting from Final Weapon to Earth. plus, Final Weapon exploded in one big explosion, just as the player escapes. yet the credits show it slowly blowing up.
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Why is it so hard to believe Sigma has a backup body stored in final weapon with a convenient shuttle for the escape?
Not only that, he could have bounced to X/Zero's shuttle for the transport. With his final final form being split into 2 (unlike any other Sigma Final Battle) could have used proxy Sigma's for those 2 forms and escaped in cover... Many possibilities exist to explain Sigma's return to Earth...
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To say nothing of the fact that a space station/weapon is far more likely to have network communications with the outside world than a stone/spike fortress whose seeming only electronics are the doors.
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I was watching the cutscene with Lumine, and something else popped out at me...
Why did he turn all angelic at the end?
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I was watching the cutscene with Lumine, and something else popped out at me...
Why did he turn all angelic at the end?
That´s what Vilains do
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Here's the other question I had.
When Sigma was ranting about how X's justice had gotten him thinking, was he talking about how this whole mess started way back in X1? I thought that was for this last battle.
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I was watching the cutscene with Lumine, and something else popped out at me...
Why did he turn all angelic at the end?
TRANSFORMATION TRUMP CARD!
Sigma isn't the only one who can make extra bodies, I guess.
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My point is that such links in evil potential do not constitute a concrete link in terms of character relation. Said potential is of course all that Sigma sees in Zero, as he never lived to see Omega. Sigma is interested in ushering in a new world, and he sees in Zero a hidden power which he believes can be used to that end. That does not mean that Zero himself, Awakened or no, is interested in such things. And never over the course of the X-series did he show such an interest.
There's a certain road in X2 where Zero seems contented to be partnered with Sigma. Zero can act as Sigma's or Weil's tool for destruction and world domination just as he had originally been intended as Wily's. The incredible evil, the abandonment of compassion, the lust for violence, the will to fulfill the mission, these unite Awakened Zero and Omega both.
I don't consider, "maybe, maybe not" answers to be intended to encourage either view point. I consider them a general reluctance by any story writer to write themselves into an unnecessary corner. It preserves flexibility for future projects.
Not that they don't do that to some extent, though once they say they're leaving it up to fan imagination, that seems to be all the more direction we get about it. It's been over a decade and we still have no "Wily is Sagesse" flat confirmation. If Inti can't deny that Omega's program is based around Zero's original personality, then I don't see how we can. There are confirmed plot points, and there are very likely ones that only get hinted at, which can be held until proven true or false.
In a way, the whole "did Sigma rebel of his own will" discussion is the perfect case-in-point. Some sources left ambiguity, some didn't. All can fit with X8, but those that left some uncertainty have an easier time doing so.
That some sources were not ambiguous makes clear what was the real intentions of the creative team of the time. It is the responsibility of the writers of later installments to sync their work with the series that came before. I would not fault at all the X4 team in not forseeing that 7 years later and 2 installments after the series was supposed to have ended that the new X writing team would decide to go back on what had been written (if that is even the case at all). Prefering more deatil and closure to less, I applaud the "Wily made Zero" approach over "Wily probably made Zero, possibly maybe, it is rumored..."
To further the point we have had lots, and lots of experience with Inticreates' concepts not matching their final results. A lot of that went down in MMZOCW. X going villainous, the Three Keys, what the Guardians were doing during Z4. So even if they did at some point consider a link, it would still say very little as to the finalized events.
Huge difference in discussing things that could be currently and things that were changed before the final cut. Wanting Omega to look like the X series Zero was something mentioned in Telos that didn't make the cut, and they acknowledged it. Omega's quote and personality were discussing things that were already in the game. In places like Shitennou in Z4 and when Ciel made Copy X, they've clearly gone back on what they previously said. But I'm not prepared to make the jump from them having changed a few things (that we only found out when they told us, after all, it did not appear in any games themselves) to the point where nothing Inti says can have any definitive value.
Can that decision be made on the battlefield, though?
If Zero was all that Isoc was truly after, then yes, easily. In fact, the entire scenario already seemed prepared for, and if Isoc had truly no other interest in Gate all along, then prolonging his own wait when he has a golden opportunity to achieve his goal can only be explained as pure foolishness. Since he had time and was prepared enough to bring High Max back safely, then he had time and planning enough to collect Zero instead. He certainly doesn't worry about interference in his retreat in the X vs High Max scenario, and X was not even disabled by such a clever trap, so why should he worry here? It was a choice, and a significant one. All other things had gone as he wanted in that scenario. Zero Nightmare caused Zero to resurface. Zero is weakened from battle with High Max, and Isoc was ready with his Zero-stopping field. All is set for his capture, perfectly, except that that wasn't what Isoc wanted just then. The only reason to take High Max instead so is if he is currently more interested in Gate's plans than in hastening Zero's battle with X.
He could be curious as to what all Gate has accomplished, not only with Zero but also with Sigma, if by chance he is still carrying a grudge.
Good, sounds like we agree then.
Based on preview trailers and Zero's ending, Lumine seemed certain that Sigma wouldn't return, but apparently that part of his speech was lost in translation.
Lumine does not mention anything more about Sigma's death being more final in the Japanese version of X8 than the English. Either case he mentions how the Hunters should be satisfied for defeating him, and talks about Sigma's role in his plan and Sigma's intentions in the past tense, but nothing about his final death beyond those implications. I'm not sure there was ever a Japanese equivalent to the English trailer that teased Sigma not coming back, either. Fans at Japanese message boards I've been to seem to be just as clueless as to why Zero thought what he did in his ending from the context the game provides. One common guess is Lumine sabotaged his revival somehow as part of his plan, particularly when Sigma's remains are crushed, to ensure Sigma was removed from his world. But Sigma having gone all-out and having no energy remaining is another.
I don't understand the "thinness of virus" logic anyway. Every particle of virus contains the entire program, that's the whole point, and if it's capable of replicating when there's a lot of it, why not when there's a little of it?
The "science" of the virus is only somewhat explained. The virus itself does not appear to contain the full Sigma consciousness, rather it contains some form of mind-altering program that Sigma received from Zero's DNA code. Sigma virus can exist without Sigma's consciousness being "alive" and does not appear to contain the full program to revive Sigma, though mixing Sigma's virus and Zero's DNA can be used to recreate the revival program. In X5 Alia asserted that Sigma used so much energy to spread his virus (referring to the Sigma Head from the intro) that he did not have any left to revive himself. She was wrong because he did revive within that game afterwards, likely through some planning ahead. But if the relationship between Sigma and the virus is true, then spreading his virus in such a manner actually weakens Sigma. The virus can replicate itself in a linked network or physical body seemingly without much trouble, but when transmitted such as in X5 over the earth or with energy forms they do not seem capable of replicating themselves without a host and will only survive until its energy has been expended. It costs power to convert virus program to an energy body, and that energy must come from somewhere, whether it's supplied from a super computer like in X2 or from Sigma's own body like in X5. If Sigma expends more energy than he needs to move his consciousness or restore himself in another body, he cannot revive himself. In this case it would seem someone else is required to run his revival program for him, as Gate does in X6. Other than the very end of X5 and potentially X8, Sigma has been very good at making failsafe arrangements.
Because there is very little to support it outside of a speck of Light shooting from Final Weapon to Earth? Which could very well just be for the effect of the character shooting from Final Weapon to Earth. plus, Final Weapon exploded in one big explosion, just as the player escapes. yet the credits show it slowly blowing up.
Final Weapon was exploding in a lot of places before we see the shuttle, then as it escapes we see it outrun an explosion that erupted very close to itself. But whether the whole thing had then exploded at once was not shown, and given the credits, it probably had not. It also appears that the shuttle passed the "stem" of the station during its flight and was heading away from Final Weapon in that direction, while the mysterious light at the end of the credits seems to escape from around the "flower" side instead.
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There's a certain road in X2 where Zero seems contented to be partnered with Sigma. Zero can act as Sigma's or Weil's tool for destruction and world domination just as he had originally been intended as Wily's. The incredible evil, the abandonment of compassion, the lust for violence, the will to fulfill the mission, these unite Awakened Zero and Omega both.
Sigma, or Serges? Big difference there, and the lack of dialogue doesn't specify. It's entirely possible Serges instructed Zero as to his mission before leaving him unattended to battle X.
Besides, being able to bring him to X might have gotten some sway regardless, seeings how X is the "one thing" that Awakened Zero must attend to. AZ, by his own direct statement, does not care about Mavericks, therefore not about Sigma. X observes feeling more evil from AZ, despite being incomplete, than he does from Sigma. Meanwhile, Omega is from Z3's introduction clearly a subordinate and not an equal, and in Z3's ending, he doesn't respond to X's presence. No way in hell do I buy that as Awakened Zero.
Not that they don't do that to some extent, though once they say they're leaving it up to fan imagination, that seems to be all the more direction we get about it. It's been over a decade and we still have no "Wily is Sagesse" flat confirmation. If Inti can't deny that Omega's program is based around Zero's original personality, then I don't see how we can. There are confirmed plot points, and there are very likely ones that only get hinted at, which can be held until proven true or false.
See above. As AZ directly stated, X is his only priority. That tends to filter down through derivative works, showing in Nightmare Zero going nuts over the blue light and all.
Serges is a bad comparison as there is considerably more evidence in his case, and really that's what this boils down to. The full and sole connection between Omega and AZ is that they're evil, based on Zero, and Inti was asked about it and didn't comment. Serges goes far deeper than that. Comparisons were made in the books without direct interviews. He is the only Reploid to acknowledge Light. And X2 itself also establishes Zero's power/speed status as being unknown in the same manner as X himself. But more than what X2 presents in itself, is the fact that future games build on it. Every title that establishes how "impossible to analyze" Zero is further cements Serges, who constructed the entire body sans Control Chip, as one hell of an anomaly. The heavy emphasis on the Z-Saber's connection to him, as established in X6 and Z1, further compounds this.
Compare to Omega. His programming has never been revisited, even though Omega himself was in ZX. And the reasoning as to why "the original Zero" would be Weil's slave is something our Zero jumped on immediately. Weil offers only a very weasel answer. He's a bloodthirsty god of destruction, and yet, at the beginning of the same game Weil tells him who not to smash. That's not AZ.
Prefering more deatil and closure to less, I applaud the "Wily made Zero" approach over "Wily probably made Zero, possibly maybe, it is rumored..."
Granted. But one's creator is an action, an observable historical fact, not to mention the player clearly observes it in Power Fighters. Motivations behind rebellion and how they do or do not pertain to an outside influence are a far more complex and less tangible matter. Likewise, so are personality connections with past entities. And as we discussed in our evil-vs-heartless bits, it's not always an absolute yes-or-no answer either, as there are varying degrees of possible involvement. Ironing out all the details can constitute a few walls of text by themselves, and they can heavily impact later plot points.
That's the only reason speculation as to an AZ-to-Omega link exists in the first place, they cannot be equal as there is no way AZ would follow Weil. What denounces it to me further is their differences in opinion of the world, and of X. Take away the focus on X, take away the indifference to Mavericks, and turn his allegiance to a new master. What's left?
But I'm not prepared to make the jump from them having changed a few things (that we only found out when they told us, after all, it did not appear in any games themselves) to the point where nothing Inti says can have any definitive value.
I didn't say that. I said that their ambiguity cannot be taken as fact one way or the other. The Three Keys is not an example to discredit Inticreates, it's an example of how the implications of overly-specific blanket statements can fail to sync with established canon. Sigma Virus turning Zero good.
If it was a black-or-white question, then sure, one has to wonder why they leave it open. But character relations are far more complex than that, and the urge to resist writing yourself into a corner is justification enough. Again, the Sigma discussion is the perfect case-in-point, even if a connection is established the lengths to which it does or does not go can constitute a few walls of text by itself.
There's also the matter of authority, to which we can draw a comparison with Legends. Inti makes "comfortable" Legends connections without establishing a direct link, this decision being motivated by personal opinion and not by Capcom (MMZOCW, page 170). To do otherwise would be to touch events that are outside of their domain, a separate series they have no involvement with. That would have to go through Inafune/Capcom. Awakened Zero, being X-series material, falls into the same category.
If Zero was all that Isoc was truly after, then yes, easily. In fact, the entire scenario already seemed prepared for, and if Isoc had truly no other interest in Gate all along, then prolonging his own wait when he has a golden opportunity to achieve his goal can only be explained as pure foolishness.
The two "ifs" in that post are quite an assumption, one which I did not make. I said Zero was Isoc's goal, not Isoc ignores all else, there's a difference. The actions of Serges in X2 present as virtual fact that Zero had room for improvement, so would Isoc perhaps be open to that?
If Isoc knew beforehand that High Max was no match for Zero, why is he laughing? Gate's works are Zero-derivatives, and if somebody was F*@#!ing with one's masterpiece to the point of rendering their own creation invulnerable to said masterpiece's biggest rival, then it is utterly naive to assume that doesn't warrant some interest. But when the original proves it can dismantle such a colossus, well, that's gotta be damn satisfying.
The angle I was coming from is that Isoc does not share Gate's goals. That in no way means it wouldn't pay for him to keep an eye on what Gate is doing. Gate has some strong crap in his hands. Whether they are possible improvements or merely "abominations" of the original, it'd be foolish to leave them ignored. Sigma, in a way, falls into a similar category with the virus, and at X6's end he still holds as much world-dominating potential, but Isoc, or the voice in Zero's head that sounds identical to him, doesn't mind kicking Sigma's ass.
Lumine does not mention anything more about Sigma's death being more final in the Japanese version of X8 than the English. Either case he mentions how the Hunters should be satisfied for defeating him, and talks about Sigma's role in his plan and Sigma's intentions in the past tense, but nothing about his final death beyond those implications. I'm not sure there was ever a Japanese equivalent to the English trailer that teased Sigma not coming back, either. Fans at Japanese message boards I've been to seem to be just as clueless as to why Zero thought what he did in his ending from the context the game provides. One common guess is Lumine sabotaged his revival somehow as part of his plan, particularly when Sigma's remains are crushed, to ensure Sigma was removed from his world. But Sigma having gone all-out and having no energy remaining is another.
Well, I guess it's nice to know we're not the only ones left in the dark. And that Zero's dialogue wasn't an add-in.
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Sigma, or Serges? Big difference there, and the lack of dialogue doesn't specify. It's entirely possible Serges instructed Zero as to his mission before leaving him unattended to battle X.
Sigma called Zero his new partner in X2. If Sagesse left Zero instructions to go along with that, there's probably little difference therein. Sagesse aligned himself with Sigma and died serving their mutual interest.
Besides, being able to bring him to X might have gotten some sway regardless, seeings how X is the "one thing" that Awakened Zero must attend to. AZ, by his own direct statement, does not care about Mavericks, therefore not about Sigma. X observes feeling more evil from AZ, despite being incomplete, than he does from Sigma. Meanwhile, Omega is from Z3's introduction clearly a subordinate and not an equal, and in Z3's ending, he doesn't respond to X's presence. No way in hell do I buy that as Awakened Zero.
Why does X5 AZ not care about Mavericks? He liked defeating them before, and certainly post awakening enjoys destroying things just as much if not more. But Mavericks and the hunting of them are irrelevant to the current mission he was assigned. Why not trash all the robots on his way to his room? Why not destroy the base guardians? That could be some fun warm up exercise. It would also ensure that X reaches Zero faster. But no-they are not his mission. He'll just wait.
Sigma is another matter. Normally, Zero hates him with a passion. Now Awakened, does he still consider Sigma a Maverick (and does he even care to apply such labels anymore)? Sigma is not directly a part of his mission to battle X, but he is partnered with his master, and encourages Zero to succeed in his mission. Not a hindrance, a benefactor if anything. AZ is fine with floating about in Sigma's shared hideout to wait for X to arrive. AZ drops his animosity towards a former enemy just as easily as he disregards his own former best friend. Willing to kill someone he would previously sacrifice his own life for, simply because Wily ordered him to do so. Zero doesn't tell X he hates him, or rant about how he wants to destroy X to prove his own strength. He simply tells how he's finally found joy in the simplicity of his life's purpose. Fulfilling his mission is all that is required of him, and right now, it's to kill X. AZ contentedly explained his cold motives to X before the battle. X is his true enemy, but it's nothing personal. An order's an order. If Wily changed his mind and ordered something else, would AZ not give up on fighting X as well? X is strong and therefore a fun opponent, so are the Shitennou, but if they aren't part of the mission they're dismissible. The total disregard of his own feelings and compassion is what makes him more evil. It doesn't necessarily make him the boss. AZ is only following orders. Without a Master and an order to follow, he could well be contented to kill everything in his path with reckless abandon, like Zero did when he was found. Of course, he may also find it in his benefit to obtain a new master with sinister ambitions. The structured-ness of being given goals makes life more interesting and possibly rewarding.
Defeating X is the one thing Wily ordered him to do, but is certainly not all he was designed for, or all he is capable of doing. Zero no longer cares about the likes of Mavericks, has realized the inconsequence of the actions his hunter persona has previously taken, and dropped that aspect of himself along with his morality like so much heavy baggage. He comments he is much lighter and happier for it. He is no longer concerned about his former friendships, about right and wrong or fighting evil for justice, he's released from the burden of making those choices and the emotional responsibilities behind them, and can now revel in the purity of destruction and the simplicity of following the mission at hand. All he has to do is follow Wily's order, and have fun. The same applies to Omega under Weil. Omega is Weil's messiah because he's a bloodthirsty god of destruction who follows orders. The only unquestionable difference is whose orders he follows, what master he is fighting for. A soldier like him may be the greatest single tool any one with a dream requiring ruination can have. He was built for it.
See above. As AZ directly stated, X is his only priority. That tends to filter down through derivative works, showing in Nightmare Zero going nuts over the blue light and all.
Zero Nightmare goes nuts periodically regardless, but X as "only priority" doesn't stand. His mission was created to create confusion for the reploids to want to investigate, and draw out the real Zero for Isoc at the same time. He alternates between normal and robotic speech, sometimes claiming to be the real Zero, sometimes searching for him. Sometimes he tries to deceive X, other times to outright destroy him, and once claims intent to wipe out all his former Hunter comrades. He is suggested to have inherited part of Zero's memories. His unbalanced behavior suits his role as a phantasmal enigma.
Serges is a bad comparison as there is considerably more evidence in his case, and really that's what this boils down to. The full and sole connection between Omega and AZ is that they're evil, based on Zero, and Inti was asked about it and didn't comment.
If Inti "didn't comment" we couldn't be discussing it. Inti asked the question, and Inti answered it the way Inti wanted to. They commented on Omega's appearance, his speech, and his creation within the story. Omega personality was programmed by Weil. They go on to deny that it was entirely made by Weil, and hint plainly that the personality program Zero's oh-so-mysterious creator wrote was utilized by Weil. Then we're told to use our heads and put two and two together. As far as "mysterious" answers go, it's a pretty strong suggestion, and all on volunteered information.
And it fits. Reploids as evil, as skilled and as powerful as the original Zero... well, there may not be any. And to have access to that, why shouldn't Weil want to capitalize on it when it so clearly resembles his own goals. Rewriting himself into the master position could be enough, though it may not even be entirely necessary. Weil has something to offer Zero in both power upgrades and in purpose. Zero is a servant of evil, and Weil is an evil guy with pristine ability. Depends on whether original Zero can choose who he follows. That the real Zero (which X4 flashback Zero, X2 Irregular Zero and X5 Awakened Zero are all reflections of if not fully realized versions) is meant to follow him is repeated over and over by Sigma in the X series, and that Wily-like entities join forces with men of evil ambition like Sigma and Gate does little to dispel the insinuation. That Zero has strong applications for assisting in world domination is stated by Wily himself in Power Fighters. That Weil himself was not the one who made original Zero a bloodthirsty god of destruction is supported by Weil himself. All of these provide circumstantial in-game evidence that Omega contains portions of the evil persona already within the original Zero body, in the same way Serges' circumstantial evidences portray him as more than simply an evil super genius who knows his history. Not giving confirmation on these things is a calculated and at times infuriating move that helps them maintain the mystery element that keeps fans interested. As pointed out, it can also help sidestep a lot of backstory when the answers lead to more questions, like explaining how exactly Wily wound up as Serges or met with Sigma, how Zero's evil persona gained influence over the original body, to avoid a lot of direct discussion of the Elf Wars, etc. All things I'd certainly like to know more about and can speculate on, but don't seem to make much headway on actually getting official information about. Game focus has sadly thus far shifted away. In the meantime, at least we have been given hints.
And the reasoning as to why "the original Zero" would be Weil's slave is something our Zero jumped on immediately.
Having been stricken with long-standing amnesia from his sleep, Zero is not assessing that Wily's programming would never allow Zero to follow Weil. He doesn't consciously remember the Elf Wars, the battle with Omega, and seemingly most of the X series in general. If he did, he would well already know and have an opinion about why Omega follows Weil. All Zero is shown to remember of his own efforts is a few impressions and images, and since awakening has been unsure of who he himself really is. For all he knows, he really is just some fake with some copied moves and copied memories. Of what Zero knows of the legendary Zero, a hero who fought alongside X, who some call a destroyer, he well has reason to question what this original Zero is all about.
He's a bloodthirsty god of destruction, and yet, at the beginning of the same game Weil tells him who not to smash. That's not AZ.
The Shitennou, being far from conception, were never a target of X5's AZ to begin with. AZ has not been seen to battle indescriminately when he's on a mission. AZ, with a different mission.
But one's creator is an action, an observable historical fact, not to mention the player clearly observes it in Power Fighters. Motivations behind rebellion and how they do or do not pertain to an outside influence are a far more complex and less tangible matter. Likewise, so are personality connections with past entities. And as we discussed in our evil-vs-heartless bits, it's not always an absolute yes-or-no answer either, as there are varying degrees of possible involvement.
Weil using Original Zero's programming to create Omega's personality is a true or false statement. To what extent and how exactly it was utilized thus is something that would require far more detail. While it may be vague, either he did apply Wily's programming, or he didn't. Inti's hint insinuates he did, by suggestive preclusion of the opposite ("can't say it was all Vile-made" vs "maybe it is all Vile-made, maybe it isn't"). To what degree is arguable. They said to use your imagination, so differing viewpoints are par for the course.
What denounces it to me further is their differences in opinion of the world, and of X. Take away the focus on X, take away the indifference to Mavericks, and turn his allegiance to a new master. What's left?
Still his tremendous evil and blood lust, but I don't think that is the extent of it. Obvious from above I'm sure, but at the core of AZ I see his ability to drop all inconsequential matters, even his own heart, and focus on a mission. Whether ordered to destroy X or ordered to destroy a copy of Zero, to attack political enemies be they human or reploid, to capture the Dark Elf through any means or to control all reploids using her, he'd follow with the same devotion and single-minded ferocity and enjoy himself while doing it. The mission may change, but his approach remains the same. Stealing Model Z's quote, I believe that something original Zero and Hunter Zero have in common is their embodiment of the courage to fight for beliefs. Hunter Zero wants to fight for the beliefs of justice and hope shared by his friends, while original Zero is the happy whore of wicked selfish and evil men whom he either does not judge himself or condones for being more fun.
If this post was a drinking game and we did shots every time I wrote "mission" or "order" we'd have a great buzz going by now.
The Three Keys is not an example to discredit Inticreates, it's an example of how the implications of overly-specific blanket statements can fail to sync with established canon.
Which is why that has a disclaimer preceding it. Not everything is Three Keys.
If it was a black-or-white question, then sure, one has to wonder why they leave it open. But character relations are far more complex than that, and the urge to resist writing yourself into a corner is justification enough.
If you're not intending to write more on a subject, there's not much fear of writing onself into a corner. Even finished works leave mysteries for the observer to muse upon. It prolongs interest in a story to reflect upon the nature of them. The finite nature of storytelling precludes full explanation of all aspects of a story universe anyhow. Particularly via the medium of a game series universe where gameplay factors can differ from story ones. We are given some facts and some hints to make what we will. We accept or disregard them at peril of our own pleasure and understanding.
There's also the matter of authority, to which we can draw a comparison with Legends. Inti makes "comfortable" Legends connections without establishing a direct link, this decision being motivated by personal opinion and not by Capcom (MMZOCW, page 170). To do otherwise would be to touch events that are outside of their domain, a separate series they have no involvement with. That would have to go through Inafune/Capcom. Awakened Zero, being X-series material, falls into the same category.
If Capcom didn't approve of the Legends-esque elements of ZX, ZX wouldn't have them. If Capcom didn't want the statements in MZOCW or Telos to be known, they wouldn't have been printed with their approval. I'd wait for a Capcom source to refute them before assuming they've overstepped the bounds of the intellectual properties Capcom authorizes them to use and discuss.
If Isoc knew beforehand that High Max was no match for Zero, why is he laughing? Gate's works are Zero-derivatives, and if somebody was F*@#!ing with one's masterpiece to the point of rendering their own creation invulnerable to said masterpiece's biggest rival, then it is utterly naive to assume that doesn't warrant some interest. But when the original proves it can dismantle such a colossus, well, that's gotta be damn satisfying.
Isoc behaves and speaks very respectfully of High Max in all that we see, and does not behave as though he views him as an affront. That Zero trumped him despite High Max's modern technological edge certainly made his day, but basically once Zero proved his superiority, that should have settled the question if any. High Max was Gate's crown jewel, but Zero is shown to be better, and High Max a failure. Point proven. But Isoc decides to stand by High Max all the same. Seeking to see High Max harmed doesn't fit well as a motivation to explain the full scope of observable actions. We're shown that Isoc encourages Gate's discoveries and aids him in his research. We never see him act against any of Gate's plans, even when he appears to disagree with Gate's method. We also never see Serges or Wily betray Sigma, when they certainly could have. There is simply not a lot of evidence to say that Wily doesn't support them honestly, except that he's Wily and betrayal is usually his thing in the classic series. Of course, we never saw him interact with a being with equal evil intent to his own in classic.
Sigma, in a way, falls into a similar category with the virus, and at X6's end he still holds as much world-dominating potential, but Isoc, or the voice in Zero's head that sounds identical to him, doesn't mind kicking Sigma's ass.
X6 Sigma has trouble stinging together a coherent sentence. He attacked Gate without whose help he would not be there. He challenges X and Zero, then wants them to get lost when they arrive. He is a far cry from the charismatic Machiavellian schemer with whom Wily was partnered. It isn't safe to be around that thing. Further, there doesn't seem to be much Isoc can do besides whisper mysteriously after he left his body. He's not dealing with an awakened Zero whom he can order around. Perhaps there was not much else could he do besides offer Zero encouragement to live on and continue to triumph.
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If I may interject, what do the Shitennou have to do with anything?
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They're fighting Omega when Zero "meets" him in Z3. He stops fighting them when Weil tells him to. They are DNA related to X. That's about the size of it.
Edit: Oh yeah, and at the end as well, duh. When Omega goes out with a bang, they retroactively went with him.
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there's probably little difference therein.
I beg to differ. The matter at hand is how easily AZ would accept new allies/masters, as he must to bear relation to Omega.
"Partner" or "friend" are not the same thing as "underling". And saying that anyone will cooperate with another if it serves their interest is certainly not saying a lot.
Defeating X is the one thing Wily ordered him to do, but is certainly not all he was designed for
I have to stop you right there, that's speculation. Our only insight into Zero's development is Power Fighters, which is mere concept at that point. Wily states that it'll be a long time before he can complete his project, and a lot could have happened during then, Wily has been known to switch sides, and in at least one possible future (Quint's), he does reform. In X4's flashback, Wily's focus is on his rivalry, not with recognition or conquest. Any hint at him in the X-series from that point on has followed suit, as nothing definitively points Wily in the direction of world conquest during 21XX.
To assume Wily went to Zero's completion and his (biological, at least) deathbed with no change in life goals brings up some hard questions. What is the hunter personna even doing in a Reploid designed for world conquest? Why, whenever Zero fell under the influence of Wily (X2, X5, X6) was it merely subdued and never removed? Why did the only two people who did attempt to remove it (Gate and Weil) yield inferior results? Is it really one giant coincidence that X's and Zero's personalities counter-balance as well as they do? And what of the infamous X1 buster anomaly, which MHX chose to preserve?
The only possible notion of AZ's purpose outside of X AFTER ZERO'S COMPLETION, is at his death in X5, when Zero refers to himself as the one who destroys Reploids (robots). This is exceedingly vague and could mean any number of things. It could refer to his considerably different mentality from the X4 flashback, or it could be reference to the fact that any form of Zero is a destroyer, merely changing for what cause. No matter how you spin it, everything 21XX says about AZ involved destruction, and destruction in and of itself does not indicate conquest.
While it is my belief that Wily's aspirations have changed, that is theory and not fact. However at the very least Wily is considerably more passive than we knew him to be during the Classic series, and I cannot think of a single action by him in the X-series that was not in some manner related to Zero. He appears only when Zero needs to be awakened or revived.
Zero Nightmare goes nuts periodically regardless, but X as "only priority" doesn't stand.
No kidding, NZ isn't AZ either. My point was that it shows a link between the two, despite being separate entities.
If Inti "didn't comment" we couldn't be discussing it. Inti asked the question, and Inti answered it the way Inti wanted to. They commented on Omega's appearance, his speech, and his creation within the story. Omega personality was programmed by Weil. They go on to deny that it was entirely made by Weil, and hint plainly that the personality program Zero's oh-so-mysterious creator wrote was utilized by Weil. Then we're told to use our heads and put two and two together. As far as "mysterious" answers go, it's a pretty strong suggestion, and all on volunteered information.
Okay, Inti's departments asking each other, I apologize.
That being said, there is a difference between denying and merely being unable to offer certainty. The "implications" one can get clash with their own story if one's imagination goes too far. Let's review (and thank Zan for being more organized than I am):
Sound crew interview:
Suzuki (Character Designer): Up till now, we've been answering the questions, but now we have one for the sound team. What you tell us about the speech of Omega's third form?
Yamada (Sound Director): It's "Ware wa messhia nari!" ["I am the messiah!"] It certainly sounds like that "I am God" kind of speech, something a terrorist or anarchist or someone like that would say, doesn't it? I think that's the kind of impression we we're trying to give. It's not the speech by itself alone that holds significance, however, if you could express Omega's brutality and ferocity and everything into one line, that's what it would be, right! By the way, what's the creation story behind the personality of Omega form three?
Yabe (Background Designer): Omega form 3's personality program (cyber-elf), was programmed by Vile to be his messiah. Though, as to Omega form 3's...Original Zero's personality being completely Vile-made, I couldn't say that.
Ito (Series Director): I can't deny the possibility that the original personality that "a certain doctor who tried to take over the world innumerable times" created for Zero was remaining in the body, and that side of the personality having won over.
Yabe: I guess we're entrusting everyone to use their imagination (he laughs).
There's less clarity here than you might think when you consider the details of the story. For one thing "that side of the personality having won over" would indicate Omega predating Copy Zero and the hunter personna having to be salvaged from him. That would be one HELL of a backstory detail to glaze over.
For another, let's look at the old Three Keys section of MMZOCW, discussing what attracted Weil to Zero in the first place:
"Dr. Weil always had his eyes on Zero's body, which had a natural immunity to the Sigma Virus. He knew that a Reploid with no risk of going Maverick would make the perfect weapon to bring an end to the war."
Take a moment and think about that. Weil discovers a hidden personna that's engaged in a few bloodbaths, and he believes this thing has no risk of going Maverick? He sees no link between it and the Sigma Virus? Anyone who's played X5 knows better.
And finally, even in the event of an AZ/Omega link, the interview still denies a full AZ carryover. They state as fact that Weil programmed Omega to be his messiah, merely unwilling to state that he did it without aid from what was already there. But if Weil programmed Omega to be his messiah, then the reasoning of AZ being the messiah of a new world doesn't hold. Regardless of what link may exist, Weil's influence cannot be ignored.
There are other ways to spin a relation though, such as perhaps Weil never finding Zero's original code and it "seeping in" to Weil's own programming. Would seem to be more consistent, at least. Of course then we're asking how the finalized Omega differs from Weil's expectations, lack of Elf Wars details leaving one to fill in the gaps. Asking the fans to use their imagination means leaving the details up to individual interpretation. An AZ-Omega relation in and of itself is not my objection, as Omega is a Zero-derivative in some manner regardless. My beef is with the notion that the mentality of one applies to the other, that they share the same goals. That was never stated, and is speculation, one which I find particularly shaky given how different their in-game presentations are. Your justification for that is AZ's mentality changing missions, but we have never seen that happen. We do not know his purpose, if any, beyond X.
why shouldn't Weil want to capitalize on it when it so clearly resembles his own goals.
Destroying the world is his goal in MMZ, but the applications of that during Elf Wars a century earlier are unclear. Weil wanted to stop Mavericks, and took it to the extreme of outright controlling all Reploids. Vengeance factors in after the point, and it's no small leap that it would lend itself to indiscriminate destruction. So to what extent? What changed and what didn't? Lacking a detailed depiction of Elf Wars (there's as good a reason as any to revisit Omega), we can speculate but cannot be certain.
Having been stricken with long-standing amnesia from his sleep, Zero is not assessing that Wily's programming would never allow Zero to follow Weil.
I was asking that in a storytelling context, not an in-story context. If Zero wasn't lacking memory he'd already know who/what Omega was, you're stating the obvious.
To what degree is arguable.
Something we both seem to repeat. Which is why we're here. This discussion started because of the insinuation that AZ is a new-world messiah as Omega is. That is not fact.
If you're not intending to write more on a subject, there's not much fear of writing onself into a corner.
Tell that to Inafune post-X5. Inticreates made Z1 not knowing if there would be a sequel, and they made Z3 intending for that to be the end of the Weil arc.
If Capcom didn't approve of the Legends-esque elements of ZX, ZX wouldn't have them. If Capcom didn't want the statements in MZOCW or Telos to be known, they wouldn't have been printed with their approval. I'd wait for a Capcom source to refute them before assuming they've overstepped the bounds of the intellectual properties Capcom authorizes them to use and discuss.
You're taking my statements to a greater extreme than I intended. Implications and references are not the same thing as a solid canonical link. Leaving the question and making the statement are two different things.
Isoc behaves and speaks very respectfully of High Max in all that we see, and does not behave as though he views him as an affront.
If he did otherwise Gate would kick him out.
High Max was Gate's crown jewel
False, Gate is utilizing Zero's DNA for himself. And Isoc knows Gate's plans go beyond High Max, as Gate already ordered him to continue their experiments despite Isoc's suggestion that he be satisfied with High Max man-handling X and call it a day.
And that, my fluffy man, is EXACTLY the point I was trying to make. A rushed decision to the level you're suggesting is not intelligence, it's recklessness. Knowledge is power, abandoning it is foolish. There's no telling what risk, or even simple annoyances, may result from severing connections with Gate at the drop of a dime.
We never see him act against any of Gate's plans, even when he appears to disagree with Gate's method.
False, he's not sharing all he knows with Gate. Isoc can disable Zero with a wave of his hand, Gate cannot, and Zero poses a significant threat to Gate. By not sharing his knowledge, Isoc is obstructing Gate's plans.
We also never see Serges or Wily betray Sigma, when they certainly could have.
Easily questionable, as that little voice in Zero's head tells him to wail on Sigma. You can present an alternate explanation but that doesn't automatically invalidate the alternative.
Not to mention Wily's plan is the entire reason Sigma was toast in X5 in the first place, as spreading the virus in that manner posed a tremendous risk to him.
And, although speculation, there is potential for foul play in Final Sigma W. The body is built by Wily, the toughest ever, but left unfinished. Convenient.
But the fact that Serges, that is to say Wily in X2 timeframe, did not betray Sigma further illustrates my point on Isoc/Gate behavior. At the moment Zero is revived, there is no further use for Sigma. Slice him in half? Wily isn't so aggressive. And three games later, Sigma proved useful to Wily's agenda once again, despite Sigma not realizing that he's talking to the same person (Sigma describes a recent new partner). At X2, this could not have been known. Furthermore, the fact that Wily is withholding information from Sigma, as Isoc did Gate, indicates less than full cooperation.
Of course, we never saw him interact with a being with equal evil intent to his own in classic.
We never saw him act as subordinate, either, which is what Serges and Isoc do. And Wily isn't anyone I'd trust as an underling. Only the behind-the-scenes X5 Wily ever approached a fellow evil-doer as an equal.
X6 Sigma has trouble stinging together a coherent sentence. He attacked Gate without whose help he would not be there. He challenges X and Zero, then wants them to get lost when they arrive. He is a far cry from the charismatic Machiavellian schemer with whom Wily was partnered. It isn't safe to be around that thing.
All of that only furthers the point that it would have been reckless of Isoc to abandon Gate, who was working to revive Sigma, without preparation, or at least observing how far things went. Any great character in a conflict knows to educate themselves about their enemy, or even possible enemy.
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Marshmallow, wasn't there some quote that likened Weil's plans for Omega to what Wily originally intended? (World domination.)
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Walls of text ahoy.
Which is why we're here. This discussion started because of the insinuation that AZ is a new-world messiah as Omega is. That is not fact.
If you take every insinuation as a statement of fact, then original Zero is officially Omega already. I only referenced the canonical possibility of such a matter. "You're taking my statements to a greater extreme than I intended." It's fine, though. I wasn't trying to start an argument with it, but I like arguing about it anyway.
The matter at hand is how easily AZ would accept new allies/masters, as he must to bear relation to Omega.
"Partner" or "friend" are not the same thing as "underling". And saying that anyone will cooperate with another if it serves their interest is certainly not saying a lot.
Regardless of whether Serges ordered him to align with Sigma or Zero chose to do so of his own will, in that X2 scenario they were partners. It demonstrates loyalty extension or transference is possible for an awakened Zero state.
Partner status doesn't need to invoke equal stake in every aspect, sometimes partners deal in seperate aspects to do with their specialties, and sometimes there are silent partners. What is shared in partnerships vs lackeying is that all partners are bringing something significant to their shared objective. As a partner for Sigma, Zero's important. A useful ally, but valued far more than Sigma has regarded any underling, as the effort taken to bring him about demonstrates. The evil program portions they share may be about the most significant bond Sigma has with another reploid before his children.
I have to stop you right there, that's speculation. Our only insight into Zero's development is Power Fighters, which is mere concept at that point. Wily states that it'll be a long time before he can complete his project, and a lot could have happened during then, Wily has been known to switch sides, and in at least one possible future (Quint's), he does reform. In X4's flashback, Wily's focus is on his rivalry, not with recognition or conquest. Any hint at him in the X-series from that point on has followed suit, as nothing definitively points Wily in the direction of world conquest during 21XX.
That Wily was developing Zero to help him conquer the world is self-stated fact in Power Fighters. That Wily would abandon this aspect in his original Zero program is the speculation. And unconvincing, since defining the qualities of what makes Zero good for world domination are the same powers he demonstrates that make him good for killing X, would have been good for killing Rock or Forte, and are the same that make Omega a "good" Messiah. Heartlessness, deadly cunning, incredible power, follows orders. A "normal" state that does not behave erratically under Sigma virus influence. The origin of the world's most deadly virus program within his very DNA.
Wily's final order towards for Zero was to destroy X. But that this somehow rendered Zero's original program useless for world domination is not supported in the X series. You previously argued that "The virus, regardless of its effects on Sigma's judgment, was key to his role as leader of the rebellion." Don't agree that he couldn't have done X1 without it if he was evil from the start (not that I think Sigma was that either), but as demonstrated in later installments I do agree over how useful the virus can be. It's certain to see how much Gate was able to do with Zero's DNA towards his own utopia. Likes of he and Sigma did recognize such a useful and dangerous program inside Zero that's perfect for controlling and deceiving en masse. Wily identifying a stronger desire doesn't undo what Zero is capable of by Wily's own hand. It only frees the way for Wily to cooperate with other beings who want to dominate the world without conflict of interest.
Omega is likened to Original Zero's program and character, not actually "Awakened Zero." Technically the code talked about in Power Fighters is the earliest known "original" Original Zero program, and anything later added to be primarily about X could have been patched in later (if programmed in at all). But that the virus code is still inside him, with little reason to doubt its usefulness ever changed, even if Wily did not enact that world domination order himself (though such use was demonstrated every time a would-be Wily interferes with the world directly).
The Zero we see in the X4 cutscene is about as original Zero as we've witnessed actively, but is his behavior indicative of Wily's plan for the original Zero? He appears to attack anyone who approaches, He behaves wildly, energetically brutal, focus-less. Hundred year sleeps tend to cloud one's memories in many cases, has that happened here?
Then Hunter Zero emerges from flashback Zero's damages, behaving very differently. Calm, collected, thoughtful, personality-wise a far cry from his blood lusting former self which he even seems to have forgotten he was, but still technically the same person. Different goals, different outlooks, different behavior, but same actual being, only changed.
Awakened Zero is the Hunter Zero, having regained his past memory and shares traits of both Hunter Zero and the flashback one. Both evil and calm, brutal but focused, intellectual but uncompassionate. Intent upon his mission, but without the random violence and collateral damage. Even so, he is still Hunter Zero, has the experiences of him. After the double KO, they resurface.The Original Zero ideal would probably not have included standing up and protecting X, declaring hatred for Sigma and denouncing his own evil. The X5 Awakened Zero is corrupted by the Hunter Zero experiences inside him. He could be closer to Wily's intended Original Zero than the earlier flashback Zero was, but from another view he is not the Original Zero either, rather a near miss failure.
If Weil or his associates did remove the goodness, the virtuous Hunter Zero elements from the equation, recreating many key elements to the Original Zero program, the personality closeness may in that way be greater than Awakened Zero's. On the other hand, if following Wily or hating and killing X are hardwired portions of the program then that's certainly a notable change. Even so, changing the father role from Wily to Weil and from hating what Wily hates to what Weil does maintains the same equation but with different variables. Zero still appears to follow the will of the father without care or question, focus on what that figure wants with the same heartless obsessive ruthlessness. The similarities of having the same evil heart and methods can well outweigh the difference in goals and mentors. At least it is still closer to one another than the Zero with compassion for the people and ideals that either "father" stands in opposition to, the Zero who questions his own purpose and chooses who and what he believes in.
Inafune gave us last year, "Dr. Wily and Weil are not the same person. It is ironic though, because Dr. Wily created Zero, and Dr. Weil used Zero, but ultimately it was a copy of Zero's original body with a different mind that defeated him." He likens the Zero Wily created and the Zero which Weil used, in contrast to the heroic copy-bodied Zero, who has a "different mind" despite it being Zero's heroic soul from the X series. Memories can be forgotten, goals can change, but it doesn't necessarily change what makes up one's personality, or who we are. X4's epilogue described "Two different people. Two different fates." The evil Original Zero and the heroic Hunter Zero are two such differing personalities born from a common thread, and Weil's Zero is thus comparable with the evil persona while Copy Zero linked with the good.
Why, over the events of X2, X5, and X6, was it never removed?
Wily's massive failures. In X2 Serges tried to restore the program with virus, but if that is thwarted he just whips out a copy instead. Neither were successful ventures. X5 involved a similar plan to dissolve Zero's Hunter sympathies away in light of his true self thanks to the concocted Zero virus, and per one scenario it did for a while, but ultimately failed. If Isoc had managed to finish whatever he intended with Zero before X6's events, he wouldn't need to capture him.
Why did the only two people who did attempt to remove it (Gate and Weil) yield inferior results?
X has already fielded the question. A noble hearted Zero is stronger than an evil one because his power is used for the right reasons. Parallel to why Forte can't win in classic. Not a question of technology but of soul. The kind of thing that tends to drive villainous number-crunchers crazy.
Is it really one giant coincidence that X's and Zero's personalities counter-balance as well as they do?
One of the greatest story telling ironies of the franchise.
And what of the infamous X1 buster anomaly, which MHX chose to preserve?
The subject of another tangent, but... any number of things. Maybe Wily stole from Light's designs after learning about X. Maybe they both developed it independently based on the most advanced design discoveries of their time. Maybe the hologram Light modeling the look of X's buster after his friend's to help inspire him in the same way that holding his friend's Z-Saber would do in X5's ending. Since the charged outputs are changed in MHX it puts less emphasis on shared technology than on similar looks. Similarly, maybe its appearance stems from X's own desire to be strong like Zero, Light's enhancements filtered with X's own DNA acting in accordance to his will in a subconscious way. That last one's pretty abstract, the rest are quite plausible.
at his death in X5, when Zero refers to himself as the one who destroys Reploids (robots).
...ロボット破壊プロ...
"...Robot Hakai Pro..." or Robot Destruction Pro(-gram?)
In the context of the scene, Zero the way he was created to be. Oft speculated in Japan to be both the earliest form of virus and the ultimate destroyer DNA together in their natural state. Original Zero.
destruction in and of itself does not indicate conquest.
Conquest is a purpose to which destruction can be put. Conquer Light's legacy or conquer the globe by force, hard to say AZ is willing to do one and not the other when nobody in his short existence asked him to.
He appears only when Zero needs to be awakened or revived.
Hooray for mysterious Wily Deus Ex! But doesn't Zero always "need" to be awakened? Subject of yet another tangent I guess.
There's less clarity here than you might think when you consider the details of the story. For one thing "that side of the personality having won over" would indicate Omega predating Copy Zero and the hunter personna having to be salvaged from him. That would be one HELL of a backstory detail to glaze over.
The entire body swapping scenario is mysterious already. If fact that Omega shares program with Original Zero we can narrow down to fewer alternatives. The brain removal and empty body theory would be contradicted, with other potentials given more weight. Working scenarios could include Zero's dark side and light side being seperated by the scientists (either for the purposes of attending Zeros' X6 ending removal request or for experimentation and understanding). Or that Zero's cyber elf data was backed up by the scientists before the evil side won out. Perhaps the scientists needed to see the original program completed in order to help them understand the virus. Or perhaps Weil's intervention in Zero's program for his Omega project is what helped it to win over.
There are other ways to spin a relation though, such as perhaps Weil never finding Zero's original code and it "seeping in" to Weil's own programming.
Not bad. Doesn't quite click with Weil's lines about Original Zero and denying doing anything but bringing out his power, though that could be attributed to mind games. But it also doesn't say much about the Forgotten Lab scientists who studied Zero for 50 years. They compared Zero with Sigma Virus, were able to build the Mother Elf from him, could copy his body and copy or remove (part of?) his mind... For them to have never identified Zero's original code or its role grinds against the nature of what they accomplished there. Area X-2's backgrounds hint at a pretty clear undersanding of Zero's body, who made him, and why. It's simpler that Weil learned about the code, understood the link between it and the virus, and knowingly made use of what was valuable about it when Omega was first created.
Take a moment and think about that. Weil discovers a hidden personna that's engaged in a few bloodbaths, and he believes this thing has no risk of going Maverick? He sees no link between it and the Sigma Virus? Anyone who's played X5 knows better.
I think X5 helps prove the case. It demonstrated that Sigma Virus purifies Zero. It has no adverse effects on him, from an evil ideal standpoint anyway. The virus can not change a purified Zero's mental state from that which is already himself, but it does increase his power. Making oneself into that original Zero's master is to inherit a warrior whose alliegance cannot be changed virally. Important in a war where the Dark Elf or her copies can potentially steal an army right out from under you in more ways than one. For a warrior to stand up to that he needs to be able to spill some serious blood, but keep to only the blood you want spilled. Awakened Zero seems fully capable of that. If he can narrow his destruction upon X, it could be narrowed to other things.
I was asking that in a storytelling context, not an in-story context. If Zero wasn't lacking memory he'd already know who/what Omega was, you're stating the obvious.
Making any observation about reasoning behind events in a "storytelling context" is entirely arbitrary, unless you're going by the intentions of the story writers. Said story writers insinuate a link between Omega and Original Zero's programming. In that light Zero's question may not be as important as Weil's response.
Tell that to Inafune post-X5. Inticreates made Z1 not knowing if there would be a sequel, and they made Z3 intending for that to be the end of the Weil arc.
Plans do change sometimes. Their solutions to such cases generally involves tweaking with retcons. They hardly seem to be covering all their bases just in case, since we perhaps wouldn't have many of the contradictions we do if they always left themselves an out and stuck to occluding all that need not be divulged. When the intents change between games, the story often leaves evidence of it. They don't or more likely simply can't foresee all the issues. Neither can we. Both what is currently confirmed and what is currently suggested can become subject to change in the future, yet living in the now the possibilities and probabilities still relevant to us currently are all we have to work with. We can't be 100% certain about it, that's true. We can say that was certainly the creators' intent at one point. It is what we are led to believe as the most likely unless and until those who wield the creative power decide to contradict it.
Destroying the world is his goal in MMZ, but the applications of that during Elf Wars a century earlier are unclear.
Three Keys says "One of the scientists was Dr. Weil, who believed that the best way to end the fighting was to eliminate all of the humans and Reploids that were, in his eyes, silly enough to fight over matters he found to be trivial - and to then build a utopia for the survivors of the wars on their corpses." Facts tell us that he stole and cursed the Mother Elf to start the Elf Wars. Without contradiction, the only clear motivation given to us in this was his grab for power. His plan for the new world after the Elf Wars' end was to become his ideal world, and Omega insures that resistance from either human or reploid would not be tolerated. Nothing short of world domination in the same way as his predecessors and his successors, to create the perfect world from the blood of one's enemies.
Now Isoc stuff.
A rushed decision to the level you're suggesting is not intelligence, it's recklessness.
He who hesitates is lost. Whatever Isoc planned to do, did not come to fruition because of biding his time, sticking to Gate's plan as it was. Wasting one's opportunities is far more reckless than shying away making any decisive move to obtain one's goal. The line between biding one's time and wasting it. Isoc's failure to focus on Zero rather than High Max left his only known personal goal of acquiring him undone.
Isoc can disable Zero with a wave of his hand, Gate cannot, and Zero poses a significant threat to Gate. By not sharing his knowledge, Isoc is obstructing Gate's plans.
When Isoc asked Gate to take measures to capture Zero, Gate decided not to do so. Can't fault Isoc for not trying, he only allowing Gate to make his own choice in the matter. Gate seems to prefer using Zero's battle as a test of his work's abilities.
Easily questionable, as that little voice in Zero's head tells him to wail on Sigma.
"??: G... go, Zero! You're the strongest robot! "
That little voice didn't mention Sigma, or wailing on anyone at all.
Not to mention Wily's plan is the entire reason Sigma was toast in X5 in the first place, as spreading the virus in that manner posed a tremendous risk to him.
Sigma had already survived what Alia thought should have been impossible with his energy usage. Sigma going all out with his energy during the final battle could have been the case in the end, with his repeated usage of the virus as a weapon. But the death didn't necessarily have anything to do with their initial plan of spreading the virus to awaken Zero. That hurdle had been jumped.
But the fact that Serges, that is to say Wily in X2 timeframe, did not betray Sigma further illustrates my point on Isoc/Gate behavior. At the moment Zero is revived, there is no further use for Sigma.
If Serges hadn't seen some value in Sigma, he didn't need to build Sigma a new body at all. As leader of the Counter Hunters, he was acting head of the second wave, and he himself resurrected Zero's body. Simply claiming to pick up in Sigma's name could have been enough to unite the remnants of his forces under himself. He could have spearheaded everything. He had a choice not to help Sigma, or sabotage him in his revival. Serges and Isoc both made choices not to betray their colleagues. I think Wily has reasons that don't just involve wanting to play things from "safe" angles. He seems disinclined to play the card of infiltrating the Hunters and influencing Zero that way, despite the potential there.
And Wily isn't anyone I'd trust as an underling.
But Sigma and Gate seem to, even though they seem to know relatively little about him in most cases. Either Wily is super tricky and dupes evil doers into thinking he's an ally in order to use them in some future way which he himself hasn't figured out yet, or he joins them because he identifies with them and where their goals currently cross paths it is mutually beneficial to work with them. Either scenario, he does what they require of him, and appears quite reluctant to betray his would-be comrades, at the very least until after they actually succeed. Thus he is essentially helpful to them and their aims.
Marshmallow, wasn't there some quote that likened Weil's plans for Omega to what Wily originally intended? (World domination.)
If I've missed something overtly relevant, do correct me. Have I forgotten something obvious this time?
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If I've missed something overtly relevant, do correct me. Have I forgotten something obvious this time?
I just recall that before we had the translated MMZOCW, from the Japanese RZOCW, there were statements that likened Weil's ambition for Zero to Wily's own. I've however not heard anything of the sort from the English book. Maybe that was just an interpretation of Three Keys and other quotes?
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The origin of the world's most deadly virus program within his very DNA.
why does a robot need dna
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I'm not enjoying walls of text, so I'll try and be brief, difficult as that may be (EDITS: So much for that). Also, "who we are" in spite of memories/goals is a philosophical debate, so I'm not touching that.
Regardless of whether Serges ordered him to align with Sigma or Zero chose to do so of his own will, in that X2 scenario they were partners. It demonstrates loyalty extension or transference is possible for an awakened Zero state.
It's self-serving as long as Sigma's going to bring him to X.
We also have to question what state exactly Zero is in, considering how it contrasts to X5, and although I know you'll argue against me on this (we've been over it before), I still perceive a power difference between the X4 flashback and MHX, which leaves X2 as the only aberration. Zero uses identical moves in X2 whether fighting him or not.
Regardless of X4, it's rather clear that the X2 "awakening" is not the same as the X5 Awakening. And we could really use more details as to why that is, but as far as I know, there is only speculation.
That Wily was developing Zero to help him conquer the world is self-stated fact in Power Fighters.
I don't deny that. But Power Fighters is concept, and concept is not programming. You make the presupposition that it is, and that's the problem that I have with your statement. Your explanation doesn't address that point. To establish that world domination goals exist in Zero's programming, a statement must be made at or following his completion. We have no such statement. Power Fighters is only to be expected, it's in-character for Wily at that time. But if he wanted the world, he could have had it, all he had to do was unleash Zero before X was ready. Why wait? Why challenge X to open combat when your ultimate weapon being his best friend presents much simpler and more expedient methods? Why back off when the world is in shambles after X5? Wily is considerably less aggressive than we have known him to be in Classic-series, and I have a hard time believing that he's working towards the same ends that he was previously.
Omega is likened to Original Zero's program and character, not actually "Awakened Zero." Technically the code talked about in Power Fighters is the earliest known "original" Original Zero program, and anything later added to be primarily about X could have been patched in later
Yet another loophole to add to the ambiguity of the interview, and one more reason why asking the fans to "use their imaginations" is not a concrete answer as it invokes a wide variety of ends depending on who you ask. If we're differentiating between Zero's initial concept and Zero's finalized "Awakened" programming, that's opening up a whole new can of worms.
I'm seeing Sigma Virus vocabulary all over again.
The Zero we see in the X4 cutscene is about as original Zero as we've witnessed actively, but is his behavior indicative of Wily's plan for the original Zero? He appears to attack anyone who approaches, He behaves wildly, energetically brutal, focus-less. Hundred year sleeps tend to cloud one's memories in many cases, has that happened here?
We can only speculate, but I tend to lean towards Zero in some manner not being fully optimized, lacking his X2 revisions, and quite possibly lacking Wily's command itself (if such is necessary and not just encouragement/gloating ala X6). Hell, it could have been intentional for the sake of preparation, since both Zero and X suffer a lack of experience in X1 timeframe. They're formidable, sure, but a long way from the force that they can become.
After the double KO, they resurface.The Original Zero ideal would probably not have included standing up and protecting X, declaring hatred for Sigma and denouncing his own evil.
That happens every time, including X4 in which the hunter persona to our knowledge never previously surfaced (albeit we do not know the details of what went on in the repair center, but given Zero sharing the same mysterious design nature as X, I have a hard time accepting that it was anything too radical, such as the "Cain-programmed" speculation of many fans). The X5 scenario doesn't stand out from any other in that fashion.
If Weil or his associates did remove the goodness, the virtuous Hunter Zero elements from the equation, recreating many key elements to the Original Zero program, the personality closeness may in that way be greater than Awakened Zero's.
From a storytelling standpoint I don't buy that as being a viable explanation. If so then Weil outdid Wily's plans. Besides being improbable for another evil-doer to outperform Wily with his own creation, I also find the power scale to favor AZ over Omega. AZ has the Genmurei, Shin Messenko, Shin Getsurin. Omega lacks such enhancements, your own attack translations actually confirming his use of the inferior Messenko. He does, however, posses an extra few centuries of experience, doubtless contributing to his variety (case in point: Rekkoha).
Which reminds me, Awakened Zero as we see him in X5 is still incomplete. Can't ignore that, either, although I do wonder if the use of Genmurei isn't supposed to mark the completion of his transformation, as victory is impossible at that point.
Wily's massive failures. In X2 Serges tried to restore the program with virus, but if that is thwarted he just whips out a copy instead. Neither were successful ventures. X5 involved a similar plan to dissolve Zero's Hunter sympathies away in light of his true self thanks to the concocted Zero virus, and per one scenario it did for a while, but ultimately failed. If Isoc had managed to finish whatever he intended with Zero before X6's events, he wouldn't need to capture him.
I'll grant that it's possible, but I find it unlikely as it strikes me as entirely too convenient. Especially X5 which is presenting us a worst-case scenario. The mere existence of the hunter persona is in itself an oddity, are we to honestly believe Zero is left as a blank slate without the virus?
Part of this ties in with my belief that Wily was not consistently interested in world domination over the course of Zero's construction. But there is another thing. Many MegaMan series emphasize the power of the heart, and it's on those grounds which Bass, Zero's predecessor, is most frequently criticized. Zero's heart may well be necessary as part of his power, Wily finding a way to harness/bend it rather than ignore/overwrite it. There is also the possibility of a last-ditch effort for survival as well, the idea that Zero turning nice when he's beaten may be intentional to ensure that X never destroys him.
Ultimately the above paragraph is entirely speculation. But you can see, there are a lot of different ways it can play out.
Also, about X2's copy, Serges knows the control chip is one-of-a-kind. That was probably a move to appease Sigma more than anything else, I sincerely doubt he honestly expected the copy to stand a chance.
X has already fielded the question. A noble hearted Zero is stronger than an evil one because his power is used for the right reasons. Parallel to why Forte can't win in classic. Not a question of technology but of soul. The kind of thing that tends to drive villainous number-crunchers crazy.
Something we both agree on. However, as I said above, I consider it probable that Wily caught on to that, which would explain oddities in Zero's personality, both why it emerged in the first place and why it was never eliminated by his creator. Domination puts Zero on the wrong side of the fence, but a rivalry, as is Wily's self-stated focus in X4, does not lend itself to either good or evil. And an honorable rivalry can be a great source of power, hence Zero challenging X openly (EXE manga touches on this same concept with Bass Cross MegaMan). But only to one's self, not to the rest of the world. The rest of the world has to stay out of the equation, hence AZ's disregard for the Mavericks, for everything, that is not X. He wishes neither to see it preserved or destroyed, it simply doesn't matter.
That's how I see it, anyway.
Now, to nip a counter-point in the bud, yes, X talks about sensing evil within Zero, I'm aware of that. Would X consider apathy to the extent necessary in AZ to be evil? Probably. But more likely, I think X is sensing the virus and exercising his pre-conceived notions of it (not at all unreasonable, given what the virus does to anyone who is not X, Zero, or Copy Chip equipped). He likens it to Sigma, but to an even greater extent than Sigma himself. If this were connected with personality and not to the virus, it ought to reassure him against Lumine's ramblings in X8. Such is not the case. Moreover, X even specifically likens his senses to what Zero taught him of things that cannot be analyzed correctly, that is, the Sigma Virus.
So, no path is without resistance. We simply have a difference of opinion in what constitutes the least resistance.
Since the charged outputs are changed in MHX it puts less emphasis on shared technology than on similar looks.
Not entirely. They preserved the fact that the Z-Buster allows X to charge special weapons. That's technology that Zero doesn't utilize, and although chargeable special weapons are something of a standard in buster upgrades, forgoing it is not unheard of (X5, Falcon Armor). So the fact that MHX didn't raises an eyebrow.
For them to have never identified Zero's original code or its role grinds against the nature of what they accomplished there.
That assumes the good Zero and original code were separated from each other in the first place, which is in and of itself a speculative point. In the absence of the Sigma Virus and its derivatives, sans Mother Elf who is unable to influence Zero (if anything circumstantial evidence suggests the other way around), that's extremely difficult if not impossible to confirm.
Area X-2's backgrounds hint at a pretty clear undersanding of Zero's body, who made him, and why.
The point at which that data was obtained and the clarity it offers is unknown, not to mention the Omega symbol is featured prominently on those displays. Although going out on a limb, one could even speculate that the descriptions and information on display may not have even come from within Zero, merely Weil's using his (Zero's) registry number to refer to him. If Neo Arcadia was sitting on the full knowledge of Zero's true history, I don't think Phantom would be finding any grand revelations in Cyberspace. He and the rest of the Guardians, especially after Copy X (MK1)'s defeat, should know the full story.
Making any observation about reasoning behind events in a "storytelling context" is entirely arbitrary, unless you're going by the intentions of the story writers. Said story writers insinuate a link between Omega and Original Zero's programming. In that light Zero's question may not be as important as Weil's response.
Of course it's hypothetical, half our posts are. I simply see that as Zero asking what's likely on the player's mind, and Weil's response conflicts with his own actions from the game's introductions. He was already gloating with implications that Zero shares no relation to his "original" self, something which X later rebuts. Weil's mindgames do not allow his dialogue at that point to be taken at face value.
Said story writers explicitly stated that Weil programmed Omega at least in part. Again, they merely refused to make the statement that he did it without aid from Zero's previous programming. No matter how concrete you take that it still means Weil had a hand and isn't just appeasing the god of destruction, contrary to what his response indicates.
Most of the Isoc stuff is a difference of opinion in villainous policies, there is little backing to act-versus-think beyond personal opinion at this point. I will say, however, that there is a difference between hesitation and calculation.
If Serges hadn't seen some value in Sigma, he didn't need to build Sigma a new body at all. As leader of the Counter Hunters, he was acting head of the second wave, and he himself resurrected Zero's body. Simply claiming to pick up in Sigma's name could have been enough to unite the remnants of his forces under himself. He could have spearheaded everything. He had a choice not to help Sigma, or sabotage him in his revival.
You can read that two different ways, though. As an underling (which is what he is under Gate, don't kid yourself), or a partner, he removes himself from the equation and does not make a lasting stand in any instance. As leader of the Counter Hunters, him making no move to seize power on his own can be taken to speak against world domination and more towards alterior motives, as we have never known Wily to carry any intention of sharing his throne. The fact that he plays along with somebody can very reasonably be taken to mean that he DOESN'T want what they want, since when does Wily spread the wealth?
If Wily is interested in the aspirations of the likes of Gate and Sigma, will he not betray them eventually if they are no longer needed? If so then the fact that we didn't observe such a betrayal in unsuccessful scenarios is moot. World domination only leaves room for one at the top. But Gate and Sigma have alterior motives to simply ruling. Sigma, to exterminate humanity for the future of Reploids. Gate, to achieve recognition for his work and vengeance for crimes against him. How long do you think Wily would fly with that?
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Namely, they get to dodge the question of why there is no observable power difference between good and evil X2 Zeros. Even if we are to consider that scenario, we have to question what state exactly Zero is in, considering how it contrasts to X5, and although I know you'll argue against me on this (we've been over it before), I still perceive a power difference between the X4 flashback and MHX, which leaves X2 as the only aberration.
No observable power difference? How do we even know how a regular X2 boss Zero would fight? Really any difference you're observing in the X4 flashbacks lies with endurance and melee strength. With him not using his buster in the flashback and him not using melee in X2, you have no comparison between. For all we know X4 flashback Zero and X1 Zero have the exact same buster output. Much like X2 Zero and X2 boss Zero. For all we know X2 boss Zero has improved endurance and melee strength, much like the flashback Zero.
All in all, there is no aberration because there is no comparison to be made.
Yet another loophole to add to the ambiguity of the interview, and one more reason why asking the fans to "use their imaginations" is not a concrete answer as it invokes a wide variety of ends depending on who you ask. If we're differentiating between Zero's initial concept and Zero's finalized "Awakened" programming, that's opening up a whole new can of worms.
I think it's a largely irrelevant difference; there are always Vile made changes to that "original coding". None of them match Omega perfectly and the remaining differences are explained as Vile's changes to the coding.
If so then Weil outdid Wily's plans. Besides being improbable for another evil-doer to outperform Wily with his own creation
With Wily having aided both Sigma and Gate in their world domination attempts, what is to say Wily himself did not assist Dr. Vile?
I do believe that MarshmallowMan has a point in that Wily is indeed helping others with World Domination, even if he himself no longer actively tries. Wily does primarily focus on his rivalry as his own personal goal, but there's no rush. By Isoc's words; he can capture him at any time. Wily being Wily, is it so weird that he enjoys people making use of the legacy he left behind as a foundation? Is it so weird that he has a soft spot for people trying exactly what he himself did over and over again? With the entire world being based on Dr. Right's creations, why would Wily not find it an honor for others to view his work as superior, why would he not enjoy others following in his footsteps?
If there was any hidden world domination agenda behind him helping Gate and Sigma, he would be actively doing the world domination thing any other time. If it was all about recovering Zero, he wouldn't be helping them in the first place. He really seems to be helping the two out of some twisted Wily form of sincerity.
Weil's using his registry number to refer to him.
DR. W LASTNo ZERO
DR. W. NO INFINITY
How does that refer to Dr. Vile at all? His symbol is the V, not the W. Zero is not his "last number". The Vile Numbers postdate Omega by a century.
I don't think Phantom would be finding any grand revelations in Cyberspace.
Neo Arcadia hid Dr. Vile's sin. The history of the Elf Wars was covered up. That is what Phantom learned. The events leading up to Elf Wars are not hidden; Zero's Wily origin is known, the fact that Zero is a copy, is not. Phantom refers to the fact that Zero being a mere copy has no right being called a hero.
Gate, to achieve recognition for his work and vengeance for crimes against him. How long do you think Wily would fly with that?
Gate's goal is the EXACT same as Dr. Wily's himself. Wily was exiled for the nature of his experiments as people did not recognize his genius compared to Right's. Why would he not fly with his own ambition?
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why does a robot need dna
It's not the same thing as biological DNA with its chemicals and stuff, it just has a similar function. And can be used as currency, apparently...
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It's not the same thing as biological DNA with its chemicals and stuff, it just has a similar function. And can be used as currency, apparently...
DNA programs and DNA Souls are not the same thing. XS is about "DNA Souls". The DNA Soul from XS is a Repliroid's operational DNA program; the soul. One of the many DNA programs inside of a Repliroid.
The "Soul Items" from XS are NOT a currency, it is used as an energy resource for the production of items.
--
Soul Eraser manual
Story
The program of a repliroid suddenly disappears...
As if its soul itself were extracted, 2 times a repliroid has been transformed to immobile scrap iron by way of an unknown cause, a fearful phenomenon which became known as "erasure." [sic. "erase"]
And then finally, the incident occurred. On a repliroid research facility on the South Seas island "Laguzland" ["raguzurando"] , the repliroids' signatures instantly vanished! A mass repliroid erasure!
What has occurred on Laguzland? Orders for the mission are sent out to Iregular Hunters X and Zero!
Soul Item page from the Soul Eraser manual, as told by Iris.
Here I'll introduce the "Soul Item." With these, I can create parts using the energy from the Soul Items. When the parts are created, you can equip them to utilize their effects. Surely this should be most helpful in certain situations. Soul Items are dropped by defeated enemies. Please collect as many of them as you can!
--
Compendium of RockmanX
DNA Program
Program that makes up the characteristics of a repliroid. Zero's Learning ability utilizes this, but Axl's ability to completely copy a repliroid is rare.
Erasure
The phenomenon where a repliroid's operation program disappears all the sudden. An erased repliroid loses all consciousness, reduced to being like so much scrap iron. During the Nightmare Incident, a phenomenon similar erasure happened to Isoc.
DNA Soul
A repliroid's operational [mobilization/movement] DNA program that has been pulled out. It appears that Berkana took the souls from the erased repliroids and inserted them for use in the bodies of Iregulars.
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Well, you buy upgrades with it, so as far as the game is concerned it's a currency. But I see what you mean - in-world is not the same thing.
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More like materials. you need a certain amount of materials to build the part.
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This brings up another DNA related question: In X6, Gate discovered a piece of Zero and continually makes reference to Zero's DNA. Was he referring to DNA Program, DNA Soul, or something completely different?
Also, the Guardians in the Mega Man Zero series are said to be derived from X's DNA. Which kind of DNA would that be? Given the above examples, and since Axl copies DNA data to change his body, wouldn't the function of reploid DNA be analogous to human DNA? If it were so, this would facilitate the self-repair abilities some reploids have displayed as well as a reploid's ability to grow from a childlike body into an adult one.
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More like materials. you need a certain amount of materials to build the part.
Parts made out of souls?
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Reploids have artificial DNA. Nanotechnology. is that so far fetched?
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In X6, Gate discovered a piece of Zero and continually makes reference to Zero's DNA. Was he referring to DNA Program, DNA Soul, or something completely different?
A "DNA soul" is a DNA program, the operational DNA (as in their mind). But Gate only had the body, meaning all DNA programs except his soul's.
Also, the Guardians in the Mega Man Zero series are said to be derived from X's DNA. Which kind of DNA would that be?
Same case, all DNA of the body, not the soul.
Parts made out of souls?
Iris says they supply "energy" for the creation of parts.
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A "DNA soul" is a DNA program, the operational DNA (as in their mind). But Gate only had the body, meaning all DNA programs except his soul's.
Good to know.
It seems Livemetal has not just the DNA Program but the DNA Soul as well. However besides of the share of knowledge and the DNA modifikation on the host, there seems no temporary merge of the consciousness of host and livemetal into one, or is it just me with that assumption?
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Good to know.
It seems Livemetal has not just the DNA Program but the DNA Soul as well. However besides of the share of knowledge and the DNA modifikation on the host, there seems no temporary merge of the consciousness of host and livemetal into one, or is it just me with that assumption?
The host's individuality and personality remains intact, but can be influenced and overridden if the Livemetal wills it. I think Serpent would be a good example of a livemetal user being controlled by a livemetal.
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Reploids have artificial DNA. Nanotechnology. is that so far fetched?
Iris says they supply "energy" for the creation of parts.
Yes yes, it's just no fun that way.
Posted on: 2009-07-28, 20:42:16
Same case, all DNA of the body, not the soul.
You sure? They don't have any bodily features that make me think of X (of course, it would've been a different X from the one we know...), but they do all tend towards desiring justice.
I suppose that's not an X-exclusive mindset though.
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Parts made out of souls?
Using DNA data to power-up Reploids isn't unheard of outside of Xtreme2. It is something of a specialty, but the knowledge is out there. In X5 you get parts and Life/Weapon Ups from high-level bosses. In X7, Axl notes "somebody" (Sigma) using DNA data to power up Red Alert, at the same time noting that nobody within Red Alert had that ability. And, as Zan already provided, Zero's learning system works on a similar principle. As we can all observe in gameplay, Zero does not directly copy the foe's power but rather creates a derivative to fit with his own abilities. The same can be said of X's VWS, albeit usually to a lesser extent.
No observable power difference? How do we even know how a regular X2 boss Zero would fight? Really any difference you're observing in the X4 flashbacks lies with endurance and melee strength. With him not using his buster in the flashback and him not using melee in X2, you have no comparison between. For all we know X4 flashback Zero and X1 Zero have the exact same buster output. Much like X2 Zero and X2 boss Zero. For all we know X2 boss Zero has improved endurance and melee strength, much like the flashback Zero.
All in all, there is no aberration because there is no comparison to be made.
I never made a comparison between X4 flashback and X2. My comparison is between X4 and MHX, and between X5 Awakened and X5 non-Awakened, each mutually exclusive. I never claimed the same medium was used between them, you're putting words in my mouth.
For X2, we can gauge how a regular boss Zero would fight based on the attacks we see regular Zero using. He splits the ground with Earth Crush and he attacks with an identical Double Charge Wave. If anything, his initial attack on his clone is a bit faster than what we normally see out of him, but that can of course be dismissed as cutscene pacing.
I do believe that MarshmallowMan has a point in that Wily is indeed helping others with World Domination, even if he himself no longer actively tries.
I acknowledge the same. I simply take the lack of activity that you stated as being indicative of the world being irrelevant. Just because you don't want to dominate it doesn't necessarily mean you want to keep others from doing so. Sigma and Gate work with the Virus, which is part of Wily's work, so his casting his lot with them for the sake of his plans for Zero is perfectly justified without the need for further motives that we never see him working towards.
Much of this thread, as frequently happens when I go toe-to-toe with Marshmallow, is less about fact and more about differing interpretation thereof. There's no real way to confirm or deny either end, we just take turns explaining ourselves until one of us gets bored.
DR. W LASTNo ZERO
DR. W. NO INFINITY
How does that refer to Dr. Vile at all?
(http://home.comcast.net/~Anguirus/holdit.gif)
It doesn't, you misunderstood me. By "his" registry, I meant Zero's, that is, his Wily number. My point is, so what? Sigma knows that Zero is the last of the Wily Numbers, and that was a couple centuries ago. That knowledge in and of itself does not reveal an understanding of Zero's true nature. Sigma himself is proof to the point, as despite whatever he knows about Zero's background, things still don't go as he expects. Knowing Zero's registry number doesn't mean that you know his personality.
As for Wily linkage, history from 21XX onward seems oblivious. After all, nobody notices giant W's in the background. Who knows, between Wily's last attempted conquest and his death, perhaps the world no longer thought of him as threatening. Again, there are possibilities of reform, as shown by Quint's future.
Neo Arcadia hid Dr. Vile's sin. The history of the Elf Wars was covered up. That is what Phantom learned. The events leading up to Elf Wars are not hidden; Zero's Wily origin is known, the fact that Zero is a copy, is not. Phantom refers to the fact that Zero being a mere copy has no right being called a hero.
That's exactly why Zero's true nature (by that I am referring to his dark persona, not to his Wily origin) shouldn't be posted on the wall. However, even the surviving Big Four seem unaware of any link between Zero and Omega. I suppose it's conceivable that Harpuia would keep quiet, though...
Gate's goal is the EXACT same as Dr. Wily's himself. Wily was exiled for the nature of his experiments as people did not recognize his genius compared to Right's. Why would he not fly with his own ambition?
If he's not getting the recognition, it's not his own ambition. That's my point.
It's true that they are similar. However, there is a difference in that Wily favors more jealousy than vengeance. Wily perceives an injustice solely due to his lack of recognition. Gate, however, had actual malicious acts committed against him and his creations. Public pressure due to paranoia, false Maverick accusations, and murder, which Alia unknowingly participated in.
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I've been waiting to have the time to devote to this properly. Finally, game on!
Also, "who we are" in spite of memories/goals is a philosophical debate, so I'm not touching that.
Well, it is relevant. Besides which...
Take away the focus on X, take away the indifference to Mavericks, and turn his allegiance to a new master. What's left?
You brought it up, man.
I still perceive a power difference between the X4 flashback and MHX
Such difference is intangible. MHX Zero can jump the full length and height of the screen, and make a single dash from one end to the other. He can perform flaming drop kicks and ground pounding energy attacks, and when incensed can even lay out a volley of consecutive charge shots that rivals X6's overdrive. He is also shown to catch Sigma's arm during mid-strike from close range. All he's really incapable of doing is escaping from Sigma's deadly headlock, something he still has trouble with in X8 and we've not shown that flashback Zero can do any better with the move.
which leaves X2 as the only aberration. Zero uses identical moves in X2 whether fighting him or not.
Regardless of X4, it's rather clear that the X2 "awakening" is not the same as the X5 Awakening.
X5 is just as anomalous for being the only instance where Zero is exposed to an entire space colony of virus energy. Zero gets a power boost from virus energy regardless of his personality, as also established in X5, so the vast difference expressed is how much virus energy Zero has ingested. That same kind of virus in an energy body is a rare thing in X2, thus presumably his mode of awakening in that title is more directly related to hardware alteration to his brain, a patch or chip that could be destroyed by X to return him to normal, and leave him without memory of what had occurred and what he knew and believed while he was under that influence. It is also congruent with Wily's actions in MM&B, if at first you don't succeed, turn up the brainwashing level... Or more accurately in Zero's case, turn back to who he was made to be. Therefore in X5, a different method of awakening, and perhaps a better one.
Zero's newly resurrected form in X2 may only have a few core techniques at his disposal, so it doesn't seem strange that they share moves. Things like floating and glowing power auras don't appear in X4's flashback scene, those were also X5 evil Zero firsts too. It would have been interesting to see how a MHX2 would address this.
To establish that world domination goals exist in Zero's programming...
Is as impossible as establishing that hatred for X is hard-coded into him without being expressly told. And that misses the point. If Zero is to be obsessed only with proving himself better than X, he is doomed to repeat Forte's fate of sometimes being at odds with his own creator's plans. If Zero wanted to dominate the world, it would be the same King debacle again, only tenfold. Wily didn't seek for Zero to rule the world, he wanted to rule it himself. Zero is to help him do it by following his orders, and being a brutal wrecker who loves destruction and wouldn't mind at all if the whole world goes to hell. That a virus-like program within him can be tweaked to influence nearly any robot is also a pretty convenient tool. Zero is to be used to whatever ends his creator sees fit. Zero is a tool to be used, and as Inafune expressed, Weil used that tool as well.
...a statement must be made at or following his completion. We have no such statement.
Only when we ignore Sigma. Sigma has been the most vocal proponent of evil Zero since X2. The hints he gives on Zero's true nature, whom he should follow and who is his enemy, Zero's forgotten episode of their shared past, explaining that deep down Zero wants to destroy even his friends like Colonel and Iris, the revelation that the virus purifies him, even that deep down he must know his own father, and finally, the exposition that it could have been, would have been Zero ringing in the death of the old world, into a new age.
And Sigma's testimony in this case should not likely be dismissed easily. The Rockman X8 Kyuukyoku Complete Guide states on page 8:
イレギュラー状態のゼロを捕まえたのは、当時ハンターだったシグマ。ゼロの正体に関しては不明点が多いが、最もその秘密を把握していると思われるのがシグマだ。
The one who captured Zero in his Irregular state was none other than Sigma, who at that time was a Hunter. There are many uncertain questions regarding Zero's true form, but it seems Sigma himself has the greatest understanding of those secrets.
Sigma has a unique perspective on Zero. Sigma has integrated viral code from Zero, and has partnered with Zero's creator (and among all those who have done his bidding, only X2 Zero and X5's shadowy Wily are ever called his partners). Sigma has the most experience with Zero's original self, and has tried as much as anyone to bring it to the forefront. He is a valuable source of insight.
Sigma knows that Zero is the last of the Wily Numbers, and that was a couple centuries ago. That knowledge in and of itself does not reveal an understanding of Zero's true nature. Sigma himself is proof to the point, as despite whatever he knows about Zero's background, things still don't go as he expects.
Sigma's knowing of Zero's Wily Numbers status is significant as a demonstration of his rare knowledge. How he came about it is unknown. At current neither does it appear Cain, nor the Hunters, nor even Zero himself seems aware of this detail. Not even Gate has mentioned it, hard to say whether he knows. Wherever such knowledge has come from, it does not come simply as common knowledge to everyone who works on Zero. As such the reappearance of it in the Zero series demonstrates a greater understanding of Zero's past and perhaps his body than has been known to anyone outside of Wily and Sigma for the known series beforehand.
But while Sigma has knowledge of Zero's inner evil and its purpose, he does not have full understanding of Zero the hero. And for that matter, there is nothing to show that Zero's own creator understands. The two working together in X5 both fail at returning Zero to his intended self. For them, evil is stronger than the weak old justice Zero clings to, and the knowledge of his pure evil self should well overshadow that which he believed in as a Hunter (and in one X5 scenario, it does for a short time). So why does Zero cling so vehemently to the side of good? If they understood, perhaps they wouldn't have tried in the first place.
Power Fighters is only to be expected, it's in-character for Wily at that time. But if he wanted the world, he could have had it, all he had to do was unleash Zero before X was ready. Why wait?
Certainly crushing an opponent who can defend himself proves more than killing someone in their sleep or stabbing them in the back. Of course, Nintendo logic always dictated that the bosses wait in their rooms to engage in open combat.
Even so, that makes it sound as if unleashing Zero before X was ready was a simple task. Wily's own estimation was that Zero's completion was a long way off as of PF. If anything like Light's timetable for X, Wily could well be too old, too weak, or even too dead to rule the world by the time Zero is finished. Old age can be quite a hell, and ruling the planet a difficult task between naps and pill schedules, all while vying for control over one's own bowels. In musing, perhaps his own heart wasn't able to take the strain of his excitement as Zero drew ready, Wily suffering a fatal stroke at his own wicked glee, his finger poised over the ON switch. A sadder idea, maybe Wily dared not chance unveiling Zero while he still lived, for fear his life's greatest masterpiece turned out to be as much of a failure as his other creations. I doubt he'd be so pessimistic about his greatest achievement. Nothing in Wily's shown attitude demonstrates that Wily counted on or considered Zero losing.
Including the suggestion that Wily would make Zero a friendly personality so that X would not destroy him. Better ideas might be to spray one's enemy with an evil virus upon defeat. Better still, kamikaze up and take your enemy down with you (a la Zero against Vile's ride armor). If survival is the focus over winning, simply apologizing and begging for his life would perhaps have been enough, it got Wily through many a tight scrape. To actually make a secondary personality that would take over based on damage taken and subsequently be extremely difficult to re-submerge is so counter productive that maybe only someone truly mad would think it's a good idea. In truth such would be no guarantee anyway, and hinge much better success only if the two were established as friends beforehand. The proper way to pull off such a devious deed, as Double demonstrates in X4, is by introducing the good personality first in order to endear yourself, which is hardly the case when Zero was discovered. But this doesn't even require a true personality swap, only the intent to deceive. Forte did it thus as well. Then switching sides from an order would be infinitely simpler than the ordeal X5 awakening must go through. And for all that, the secondary personality becomes a limiter when actually engaged. If the battle is close and both sides take damage, Zero would wimp out instead of giving the final blow, preventing the ultimate victory he could have otherwise achieved. In this scenario the X5 Awakening outcome is 100% Wily's own fault. Zero recovered faster, but it was the wrong Zero, and thus the day was lost.
Classic series Wily has often had some bone-headed schemes that do imply he has a screw or two loose, and his webs of deceit always fall apart by the end. Even so I give him more credit than to have ever thought this was the way to go, but still bungled it so completely. More likely his plan was for an evil Zero to emerge and conquer without ever becoming a friend of X, but with his work time was simply not on his side. Which incidentally may also address any lack of full optimization in Zero's X1 or flashback forms. Of further interest is whether Wily's robotic rebirth was also on his agenda back then. Perhaps Zero also needed to wait for Wily himself to be ready, as well as for himself and for his opponent to be.
Yet another loophole to add to the ambiguity of the interview, and one more reason why asking the fans to "use their imaginations" is not a concrete answer as it invokes a wide variety of ends depending on who you ask. If we're differentiating between Zero's initial concept and Zero's finalized "Awakened" programming, that's opening up a whole new can of worms.
It is the exact same can of worms. The important feature is the premise itself, not in how the details play out. That is that Weil used portions of the same personality program for Omega that Wily wrote for Zero. The suggested use of imagination exists around demonstrating the truth of that link. There are many many ways it can play out, that the connection can be perceived, and using either a little of the code or a lot, but only one scenario flat-out denies the connection, and that route is not what Inti would lead us to believe.
From a storytelling standpoint I don't buy that as being a viable explanation. If so then Weil outdid Wily's plans.
I don't agree with "outdid." More like Weil fulfilled Wily's dream to some extent. To control the world, using Zero and the virus. If Weil couldn't create a better perfect evil soldier personality program than what Wily had made centuries ago, that is a huge compliment to Wily. No stand-alone program Weil could create could utilize Zero's body and power as efficiently as Zero's own original skillful mind. Some alterations to adjust for a few centuries of advancement and an increase in general destructive power, and the ultimate big bad robot is ready to take down the future establishment. Wily tried to do the same thing within the X series.
Besides being improbable for another evil-doer to outperform Wily with his own creation, I also find the power scale to favor AZ over Omega.
Once again, so very arguable. Canonically, Omega is a demon of unmeasurable power. A final strike from X and Zero didn't kill him. His re-emergence on the Earth opens tears in the fabric of cyberspace. Despite not using his unarmored form in who knows how long, Omega rockets out of his shell, battle ready. His sprite even has a shiny pixelated aura of power. He has the largest array of techniques that any CPU-controlled Zero has ever brought to the table. The Rockman Zero 3 Kouryakubon asserts that the third form is an even stronger enemy than the previous two, despite the armors and the Dark Elf imbued powers, and that difference in strength is explained when realizing that Zero himself bested those forms. Zero's battle skill is at the heart of this beast. Thanks to a dash of retconning, even his explosion is beautiful, taking out the remaining Shitennou with him, just by dying . Even then his power still haunts the world some 200 years after his demise. Omega in no way shames the evil Zero's legacy.
AZ has the Genmurei, Shin Messenko, Shin Getsurin. Omega lacks such enhancements, your own attack translations actually confirming his use of the inferior Messenko.
Omega's move that's labeled Messenko isn't much like the one from X5 (though Model OX's is). The move may have been adapted over time to suit Zero's own needs, power levels, and finesse, perhaps similar to how Hunter Zero and Awakened Zero of X5 and Zero Nightmare of X6 have adapted Messenko into Shin Messenko. Over such an expanse, there may not really be any need to differentiate the move he currently uses with a special prefix or suffix for the sake of long winded-ness. Unlike X5-era, where the change is noticeable and new... For who knows how long, that move has been dubbed simply Messenko by he.
I can't help but smile at Messenko being labeled inferior, though. The normal 9-blast Messenko of X5 would have been much harder to dodge than the CPU Zeros' 8-blast Shin Messenko. Despite its name it really is a nerfed version that allows the player a more sporting chance. Of course Omega's moves are realistically nerfed too, and that doesn't mean that they aren't canonically more powerful than gameplay makes them appear. It is a fuzzy transition from story to gameplay.
Awakened Zero's Genmurei is a cool ass move, but Zero Nightmare's Genmurei-kai version makes me think that the move itself is probably not meant to be as canonically powerful as gameplay made it appear in X5. Adding "Kai" under normal circumstances would imply that the revision is an improvement upon the former, but this seems to be the opposite if evaluated simply from gameplay. I conjecture that its canonical form lies somewhere less than invincible instant kill move, but was utilized in gameplay to give added challenge by adding a time limit to the battle. The lesson is hardly that evil is stronger than good, or that Awakened Zero is invincible. Omega, merged with the Dark Elf, would have even more right to be invincible, but unwinnable situations don't really make for fun games. Genmurei is X5 Awakened Zero's most powerful attack, but it may not necessarily be Zero's best or favorite for all time. It's possible it wouldn't be useful in some situations or against some enemies. He might also wait to use the move because he doesn't like using it, and practices it only out of desperation to end the battle. Perhaps it would have left him drained and tired afterwards, a sitting duck if he missed too much. Gameplay doesn't let him miss (except with Ultimate Armor, but it won't let X win in any event, as we aren't meant to see what occurs when evil succeeds, it is always a dead end).
That Omega doesn't use it might be a bit disappointing, but not seeing him using Genmurei or Shingetsurin doesn't necessarily mean he can't use it. Just like CPU Ultimate X in X5 not using Nova Strike or many of his other X4 or even X5 special moves doesn't necessarily mean he can't. Dealing with characters who have such vast arsenals, not everything will get used. Additionally, Omega's first and second forms too are shown with much greater attack potential than their battle CPUs make use of. What enters into gameplay is but one aspect of such a character.
If Omega did use Genmurei, it would either be nerfed so as to allow for the game to be winnable, or would force another time-limit related system. Z4 shows Inti is not opposed to this, but their countdowns always involve a timer in the corner, and without a plot context for the timer it probably wouldn't make sense to be there. It could also be pretty frustrating for players who already had to work through 2 forms of final boss to get where they are. Omega's not using it sidesteps the question of how to implement it properly. Still, if Omega had used it, would that really prove the case he is Zero's evil persona? Copy X can Nova Strike, and Zero Nightmare has a Genmurei version. These are techniques, like Ryuuenjin or Messenko. How honestly can a technique Zero hasn't used before X5 be directly related to his original personality which was programmed before Zero even acquires the weapon which he would use to perform it?
An alternate theory of Genmurei is that it is an adapted version of Sougenmu, Zero's Soul Body counterpart from the thorny rose man, applied and channeled into his weapon. An adapted technique, like Shin Messenko. Under this hypothesis Denjinrei is adapted from Denjin, and Shingetsurin from Mikazukizan (or Danchien some have argued, though Grizzly's move is more accepted). These moves then would be a reflection of Zero's Learning ability, powered up and unleashed. Not something forgotten and remembered, but something new and dynamic. Zero Nightmare's Genmurei version and spiral shot/wide shot preference over Shingetsurin may show that such ability evolutions can take different directions. Perhaps Omega (and Inti clearly) developed his repertoire with a fair number of long range attacks, but with a far more up close and personal style in mind. Which is more in line with how we saw the original Zero behave in the X4 flashback.
However, as I said above, I consider it probable that Wily caught on to that, which would explain oddities in Zero's personality, both why it emerged in the first place and why it was never eliminated by his creator. Domination puts Zero on the wrong side of the fence, but a rivalry, as is Wily's self-stated focus in X4, does not lend itself to either good or evil. And an honorable rivalry can be a great source of power, hence Zero challenging X openly (EXE manga touches on this same concept with Bass Cross MegaMan). But only to one's self, not to the rest of the world.
Rivalry as an inspiration can be positive or negative. Wily's rivalry with Light took him to very dark places. His selfish and evil actions throughout classic, including theft, kidnapping, destruction and mayhem at times put the entire world at risk. And for all that, he never won in the end. Same with Forte, whose serious rivalry with Rock at times brings him to fighting on the side of good and the side of evil, but whose determination to keep trying to glorify himself refuses to waiver. All his rivalry never gave him the strength to beat Rockman. Challenging Rockman to open combat never gave him any edge. His intent, like Wily's, is selfish. It is the ones who fight selflessly for the good of others, like Rock and X, who have the ethical advantage.
Bass Cross Megaman (manga) does not use rivalry as a source of power, rather it is the foundation of their ability to converge, but ONLY in the presence of a mutual enemy which threatens Bass' ultimate bout with his preferred nemesis. Bass and Megaman were both already navis with immense power and potential, and BxM's power is fueled by the fusion of these strong navis. By nature of their teamwork, by nature of their mutual struggle against fully destructive entities, BxM's power is not dark. Bass himself is evil, but his rivalry with Megaman, which began with a passing interest and grew into determination to defeat Megaman personally and conquer the challenge he represents, then yielded for him the unexpected result of intense feeling of connection to another being, giving Bass a new dream, a stake in the world, and a person whom he must fight to protect. This rivalry is what eventually redeems him when he himself is required to sacrifice to save the Earth. A strong rivalry can inspire good acts from evil men, or conversely deplorable amoralities in good men. However, it does not trump one's fighting power in and of itself, or the good vs evil moral nature that prevails in the series' heroes.
In applying this to Zero, I am at a loss to make sense of what you suggest. Setting out to kill X in X5 is an evil act. Regardless of whether Awakened Zero is setting out to do so because he personally harbors the deep desire to destroy X and X alone (though he himself never suggests this as a reason) or whether he is simply following the given order of his creator, attacking X who is pacifistic by nature but defends others when necessary... is a pure aggressor stance. Standing in support of another itself is a wrongful act if the one you are supporting is evil, which was what all that extra worrying and brainpower in X was meant to recognize. Being ignorant or apathetic to one's evil deed, either by naivety or done willfully, does not change the nature of the act itself as evil, or the force of the one opposing such atrocities as good.
A positive rivalry is the kind which X and Hunter Zero share, one in which feelings of faith and respect mutually inspires two people to become better, become stronger, become more than they currently are and deal with difficult situations with courage. This exists without animosity or malice towards one another, no intention to harm or kill the other to prove their own superiority. A bond not immediate, but grown over time and experience.
I don't understand the suggested mixture of this with Wily's intentions. A noble spirit with an evil deed forced upon it has a better chance of resisting its duty, i.e. creating hesitation and doubt which results in the fialure of said task, or alternately, outright rejecting the task itself on its amoral vice. To take on the task fully, the noble spirit must tolerate darkness into its heart, in which case the noble heart is weakened of its virtue, or even lost altogether in darkness, righteous no longer.
This contradiction doesn't create power, it creates inner conflict. It's a weakness, and an added hurdle towards the evil deed that desired to be done. In that it could certainly explain good Zero's triumph over evil Zero, but not why good Zero is there to begin with, that is, why Wily would ever find such a situation to be desirable as to have Zero's own heart work against itself and his purpose.
Many MegaMan series emphasize the power of the heart, and it's on those grounds which Bass, Zero's predecessor, is most frequently criticized.
Those critiques from Rock and Blues are actually appeals to Forte's intelligence and sense of justice, to abandon selfish pursuits and fruitless aggressions and stop working with Wily altogether. They are never things that Wily himself identifies as a problem with Forte. Wily's problems with Forte, seen in PB, PF and R&F, have always been primarily his failure to defeat Rockman (not strong enough) and his pompous disobedient attitude (doesn't listen to orders). Wily is not seeking further betrayals, thus a robot with a just and righteous heart is counterproductive to Wily's desires. The unfortunate scenario for him is that the smarter he makes his robots, the more thoughtful, independent and unreliable for his purposes they tend to become. From this, the need for an empirically evil but obedient robot comes into play.
There is also no indication that Wily himself believes good to be more powerful than evil in the first place, lest he may have truly realized the error of his ways and surrendered his evil ambitions ever after.
But the final line from Forte's ending in Rockman 2 The Power Fighters is:
せいぎがあるかぎり、
ワイリーのやぼうはつづく！
As long as there is justice, Wily's evil ambition continues!
That does not foreshadow Wily's dark intentions to change any time soon. Nor does Rockman Perfect Memories on page 60, regarding Zero.
はたして、誰と戦うために彼は造られたのか？決して正義のためとは思えないのだが......。
Really, with whom was he created to fight? It seems certain that it was by no means for the sake of justice, but...
...but Zero's a become good guy. Not by Wily's intentions. As Sigma mentioned in X5,
おまえにことにやたらくわしいろうじんがいてな... いまのゼロは、ほんもののゼロではない...そんなオモシロイことをいうのだよ...
"There is an old man who knows a great deal about you... The present Zero, is not the real Zero... That's the sort of interesting subject he spoke about."
Wily does not consider the current Zero to be the true Zero, and his heroic actions are those of a confused damaged persona which Wily is actually trying to heal back to his dark self. Wily did not intend to create a hero any more than he acts as one himself.
By Wily's behavior in the X series, evil is still a huge part of his countenance. We meet Serges in X2, who is hard at work churning out robots with evil chips installed, very much the same m.o. as he worked in the entire classic series. He's plotting the downfall of the work of Dr. Light, and he's also head of an evil trio that actively carries out the assassinations of skilled Hunters. He's aligned himself with the greatest robot warlord to yet exist, who also happens to be exposed to a variant virus-like program of Wily's very own handiwork, and now his very body is such a product as well.
In X5, Wily seems to be about the most evil he has ever been. A co-conspirator in the plan to cause cataclysmic events in both global spreading of the virus and crashing a giant space colony into the Earth. The level of destruction and extinction brought on here is unparalleled to anything Wily has ever had a hand in before. Only Super Adventure Rockman really compares, but there Wily firmly believed he was in control of the electromagnetic waves and would not have let all life on Earth run to extinction, where here once set into motion the chain reaction takes on a life of its own, and all fate is relinquished to the actions of the Hunters. And not only is he fine with it, but it seems to have been his idea at the very start.
Sigma continues in X5
そのろうじんのすすめで...ウィルスを地球とコロニーに、ばらまいて...
"On that old man's recommendation... I scattered the virus over the Earth and the Colony..."
The X series brings out Wily's evil in full swing. Zero's fragmented memories and dreams well give the impression of a man who still seeks destruction, who still seeks vengeance, who still lusted after bringing the globe to its knees. Wily changing heart in his later life is well out of sync with his actions before and after. Even the shaky ground of Three Keys agrees with that much, Wily set out to build a purely evil destructive robot.
Inafune weighed in, Sigma and Zero are victims of circumstance in the changing of allegiances. They demonstrate the annulment of absolutes, there is good in Zero and there is evil in Sigma, and the right circumstances can completely turn the tables and topple even the best laid plans.
In all that is left, the most compelling reason I can think of to say that Wily had a change of heart is the story of Quint's future. And yet the very nature of time travel as it applies to the series in Mega World and R&F WS, tell that both the past and the future can be changed through the actions of time travelers. Thus the future timeline of Quint is likely undone by his own return to the past. Because Wily reformed there does not mean he will in this new timeline, where current hints point that he did not.
If Wily is interested in the aspirations of the likes of Gate and Sigma, will he not betray them eventually if they are no longer needed? If so then the fact that we didn't observe such a betrayal in unsuccessful scenarios is moot. World domination only leaves room for one at the top. But Gate and Sigma have alterior motives to simply ruling. Sigma, to exterminate humanity for the future of Reploids. Gate, to achieve recognition for his work and vengeance for crimes against him. How long do you think Wily would fly with that?
We may ask what it is that Wily finds appealing about ruling the world in the first place. Does he truly wish to rule and govern, to become a political figure and statesman, sit in on cabinet meetings and economic trade committees drafting laws and reforms, weighing legal cases in courts and proceedings in everything from civic planning to propaganda... or is his ambition more of a power trip? The global recognition of his genius and submission to his whims, the privileged status, the idea that he can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, these are likely what he is after. Making robots is what he loves, and using those robots to tear down the establishment of fools who don't recognize his genius and enforce his own will is his ideal kingship. When it comes down to the daily bureaucratic grind, enforcing the law and running the ordinary show for the entire world, he's going to have to delegate some responsibilities either to robots or humans who suck up enough to be trusted.
Sigma recognizes Wily's genius. Wily is a scientist who can advance the state of reploids as Sigma wishes. If Sigma gives Wily the right props and keeps him supplied with whatever resources Wily desires, if he is open to ideas Wily has about how the world should be run better, would Wily then be satisfied?
And, would Wily be bothered if the human race were exterminated? He has always seemed to prefer the company of robots over people. Since he himself has shed his human form for a robot's, has he also shed his sympathy for humanity? The humans whose history has chosen Light's work to be revered over his own? Judging from the X5 incident where he is willing to put all life on Earth in harm's way for his joint venture with Sigma, what little conscience he may have had in the matter is now dwarfed by his ambition.
Gate, a fellow scorned inventor, Wily may even look upon as a successor in some ways. He has inherited and made "improvements" to the Zero DNA code with Isoc's own aid, and perhaps can be viewed as Wily's protege. Wily has never had a "son" that wasn't a fighting robot, but a scientist to follow in his own footsteps... The world these two could create together as a joint legacy of older and younger generation mad scientists can still well be a world Wily takes pride in. In a large way, using the Zero DNA code to rule the world proves Wily's boast a century ago in PF's Forte ending, that his invention had the power to humble and reign in the world itself. Even if it needed a little tune-up after 100 years or so.
Thus the idea that Wily legitimately joins forces with both these characters is not at all unbelievable. The idea that he did not make a legitimate effort to aid them, or the idea that he would have betrayed them following the success of the joint plans to rule alone, while both within range of possibility, are not supported by Wily's observed words or actions.
Not entirely. They preserved the fact that the Z-Buster allows X to charge special weapons. That's technology that Zero doesn't utilize, and although chargeable special weapons are something of a standard in buster upgrades, forgoing it is not unheard of (X5, Falcon Armor). So the fact that MHX didn't raises an eyebrow.
Outside of mentioning how lame the buster upgrade would be if the only perk for waiting the entire game through to get it was the slow but powerful charge shot... We understand Zero is never shown to actually charge or even use any special weapons with this buster. Perhaps he could have, as special weapon technology has been available to Wily previously already, and thus there is not too much reason to think that Wily couldn't come up with the way to charge them just as Light eventually does. Still, Zero's version is toted as the later-displayed learning system rather than the special weapon system. An improvement on the same concept in a different way. It might only be the joining of X's buster parts with Zero's that makes charging special weapons possible then, and not one of Zero's buster's abilities in itself. That doesn't at all mean that Zero's buster parts were designed to be merged with X's. Only that there is a way they can be combined to enable such a power increase within X. How exactly the buster parts merger went down is something that is never really shown, although it might be comparable to the method of taking special weapons from a defeated enemy. Zero's special weapon so to speak is his buster, and special weapons in X's hands often tend to develop in some unique ways which are different than what the previous owners initially used.
Which reminds me, Awakened Zero as we see him in X5 is still incomplete. Can't ignore that, either, although I do wonder if the use of Genmurei isn't supposed to mark the completion of his transformation, as victory is impossible at that point.
Sigma in the Japanese version of X5 reflects that Awakened Zero was indeed complete, in personality anyway.
しんのすがたにもどれたのに...ゼロよ。ごくろうだったよ。
"Even though your true form had returned... Zero. Thank you for all your effort."
It's possible that Zero was able to increase his power during the course of the battle, but the evil persona was in place since the Shuttle Mission failure. Hence "Awakened" Zero, not "Awakening" or "almost Awakened."
I'll grant that it's possible, but I find it unlikely as it strikes me as entirely too convenient. Especially X5 which is presenting us a worst-case scenario. The mere existence of the hunter persona is in itself an oddity, are we to honestly believe Zero is left as a blank slate without the virus?
Not a wholly blank slate. The same intelligence, and with many of the same qualities, but without the strong evil mindset and the knowledge secures him into who he was before. His remaining reason and personality allow him to adapt and recast the "master" and mission roles. He is now loyal to Dr. Cain and the Maverick Hunters, and to what they represent. His given mission he is to follow is now the cause of justice. His desire to destroy is channeled into the more socially positive act of destroying mavericks, to whom his hate is now directed and focused. He handles every mission with cool focus and great physical skill, which he has also retained. Here he is the same man, but less evil, and no memories of who he is and what he was supposed to be. From this starting block he begins upon a much different path than the one previously laid out before him, and thus evolves into the heroic Zero who later stands adverse to his own inner demon, so much so that he becomes his own man in spite of his creator's programming.
That happens every time, including X4 in which the hunter persona to our knowledge never previously surfaced (albeit we do not know the details of what went on in the repair center, but given Zero sharing the same mysterious design nature as X, I have a hard time accepting that it was anything too radical, such as the "Cain-programmed" speculation of many fans).
Cain did something to repair Zero after the fight, and though it seems clear he doesn't understand Zero's complexity that only makes whatever internal tinkering he may have done all the more likely to have had consequences to add to Zero's change of heart, whether Cain intended to do so or not. But like I said above, I don't believe Cain can wholly take credit for that, and Zero still has many of the same personality qualities, only turned on their ear.
The X5 scenario doesn't stand out from any other in that fashion.
The X5 Awakened Zero scenario is uniquely important not only because of the circumstances surrounding it, but also because when it is over, he has not forgotten any of it.
Like Zero's X4 ending foreshadowed and Awakened Zero's death demonstrated, Awakening for Zero here is actually a choice. The virus restores Zero's memories and boosts his power, but it can not control him. Zero in X5 chooses to pursue his past despite X's pleas he return. Or in the Awakening case, Zero with knowledge of both sides of himself chooses to indulge his own darkest desires and fulfill that which he was created to do.
With the Colony virus infection his lost memories and damaged program is restored. He is now able to remember who he was before his Hunter life, but he has not forgotten who currently is, and all the experiences he's had since. His initial response to this knowledge and increased power, this awakened urge to fight freely, to fulfill one's destiny set forth by his father's orders, is to indulge himself. He immerses in his role, casting off his former friendships and allegiances and seeks to do that which his real father once again commands of him.
The Rockman Perfect Memories book, page 53 talks about what's going on with Zero and X in X5...
Σウイルスに感染すればするほど、逆に戦闘力を上げていくゼロ......。これは失われたゼロの記憶と関係があることなのか？ 封じられた過去がよみがえるとき、エックスはゼロと戦う決意をする。過去に引ずられるゼロを止めるために......。
To what degree Zero is infected with Sigma Virus, conversely his combat power actually increases...... This must have something to do with Zero's lost memories and ties? When this sealed past reemerges, X makes the decision to fight with Zero. In order to stop Zero who is seduced by the past......
Awakened Zero battles X to a standstill, but all the while X doesn't give up in his idea that the real Zero is the heroic persona within, and his heartfelt faith touches Zero and transforms him after their stalemate with the reminder of what is truly important to him. Zero rises and renounces the evil, but he has not forgotten anything he learned form his Awakening. In spite of his understanding of who he is and what he was made to do, Zero decides his friendship is the most important thing that defines him. Even in this worst-case scenario, Zero conquers the immense temptation towards darkness within himself, and proves himself a hero. Not because Wily programmed him with supreme wishy-washy tendency, but because he chooses his own destiny for himself, and that is what he chooses.
Now, to nip a counter-point in the bud, yes, X talks about sensing evil within Zero, I'm aware of that. Would X consider apathy to the extent necessary in AZ to be evil? Probably. But more likely, I think X is sensing the virus and exercising his pre-conceived notions of it (not at all unreasonable, given what the virus does to anyone who is not X, Zero, or Copy Chip equipped). He likens it to Sigma, but to an even greater extent than Sigma himself. If this were connected with personality and not to the virus, it ought to reassure him against Lumine's ramblings in X8. Such is not the case. Moreover, X even specifically likens his senses to what Zero taught him of things that cannot be analyzed correctly, that is, the Sigma Virus.
X said in that scenario that there are things which cannot be observed, he did not say specifically Sigma Virus there, although the virus presence cannot be denied. X mentions being able to feel Sigma nearby in the opening stage where you pick Zero as your playable character, without Zero saying anything about sensing the virus as evil. Sensing evil by feel may have been taught by Zero, but it was probably at some time before X5, and X's intro stage then is a reminder of it for the player's benefit. X is capable of sensing quite a few things, actually. Like the freed souls in Xtreme 2's ending, and Zero's presence after survival after the Shuttle Mission is a success... his extra-sensory perception isn't all virus-based. It may also be enhanced from the fact that he has a close bond with Zero, and also in another way a close tie with Sigma, whom he has faced repeatedly in deadly combat.
Of course, as a part of Zero's natural state, virus code in his DNA is certainly present, but in fact has always been present and yet not felt. The problem arising towards the end of X5 is that Zero has succumbed to the vision of evil. X can also recognize the growing of that evil within Zero as part of the reason they fight even when Zero is not Awakened. X feels that growing doubt and curiosity regarding the dark desires within his friend, and has to try and stop it from blossoming somehow. His best friend's soul is at risk.
Lumine, if what he said were actually true, would make all X fought for pointless. If an entire generation of robots more advanced than X himself, who could see all sides of the issue and weigh it accordingly, truly did not want to coexist with humanity... Then Light's dream is truly dead, for no peace could ever come from forcing all robots against their will to coexist with man. But as X eventually concludes with the help of Zero and Axl, that was not the case. Regardless of if he got an evil feeling from Lumine, the doubt itself is justifiable. But if he did not feel it, it suggests he doesn't have the same kind of empathic connection to Lumine in that moment which he's had with other acquaintences. Lumine could be something of a reploid occlumens, if he can keep Sigma deceived enough to enact his own plot. Or perhaps, New Gens always give off a strange feeling that is hard to identify. Despite being everywhere we go in X8, the Hunters don't seem to have much contact with or understanding of them outside of Axl. Maybe because they're supposed to be trouble free.
He was already gloating with implications that Zero shares no relation to his "original" self, something which X later rebuts. Weil's mindgames do not allow his dialogue at that point to be taken at face value.
The best mindfucks hold a light of truth to them. From the perspective of being the "true" Zero as villains like Wily, Weil and Sigma see things, Copy Zero is not. He's the embodiment of everything that went wrong with Zero, a cosmic joke, a faker. Inafune concurred, the Copy Zero's mind is different, a derivative as much as the body is.
"Dr. Wily and Weil are not the same person. It is ironic though, because Dr. Wily created Zero, and Dr. Weil used Zero, but ultimately it was a copy of Zero's original body with a different mind that defeated him."
In this context, it certainly sounds like Omega is the Zero Wily created and Weil used. The Copy Zero possesses a different mind from that evil creation, one that has forged its own path. And when considered that the virus is what was intended to be removed from Zero in that X6 sealing, this Zero's good mind being removed, and the evil persona's code remaining with the virus... and subsequently taking over with Weil's guidance... all puzzle pieces align.
Said story writers explicitly stated that Weil programmed Omega at least in part. Again, they merely refused to make the statement that he did it without aid from Zero's previous programming. No matter how concrete you take that it still means Weil had a hand and isn't just appeasing the god of destruction, contrary to what his response indicates.
Ciel manufactured the Live Metals, explicitly she programmed them. But she used the souls of the heroes in doing so. Does Ciel's hand in their creation make them less geniune as the personalities of the heroes?
The subtext and symbolism of Omega, as referred to in the Telos drama track retrospective, is far more powerful if taken literally. Another of Zero's own self by Zero's personal recognition, Omega embodies his nightmare... Not simply the fear of his body being used for evil by some madman, but the literal manifestation of his dark forgotten self, nagging at subconscious, baiting him, tempting him, threatening to ensnare him. The Omega who is X's destiny to fight, the evil destiny set in motion by Wily hundreds of years ago, not simply of body, but the very entity which was set forth against him. Omega who Sigma wished to use, whom Weil did manage to use, who Zero himself quite nearly could have been, if not for a very lucky set of circumstances and a very special friendship. In a timeline where Zero's inner evil seemingly never gets brought to the forefront completely, this battle is the long awaited resolution. X's fated fight, and Zero's reconciliation of his past and who he was made to be with his future and who he wants to be, are all accomplished in the culmination of the Elf Wars, and their defeat of this demon. It's a very alluring prospect, that Inti staff, including Yoshihisa Tsuda who worked on X2 back when the Zero-Wily connection was first formed, seem to be proponents of, and Inafune's comments add weight to it as well. When it comes to this premise, it's a very definite "maybe."
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D:
NO ONE GONNA READ ALL THAT!
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:'(
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Marsh, you've really gotta start coming here more regularly so you don't have to write everything at once...
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You're tellin' me.
Although, this was pretty much a direct reply to only 2 other posts. The wait is more for the research that was involved and my busy schedule. I don't really mind if just the hardcore bother to read my ramblings. I still enjoy doing it.
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I'm glad somebody does...
Definitely don't have the energy to tackle that monstrocity at the moment.
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I tried to read it although it took me awhile but await for what Zan, Oakes and Hypershell come up with.
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Okay, here we go. Again, I feel this discussion has reached the point of both of us explaining personal opinion until we're bored to death, and I've long since passed that point. So I'll just chime in at some key lines and leave it at that, this discussion has already gotten unproductive to me. We both know where the other's opinion lies and re-stating it over and over isn't going to get us anywhere.
You brought it up, man.
It was a rhetorical question. My point is there is nothing distinguishable in Omega's character to link him to Awakened Zero more so than to any other villain. He's just evil and is a Zero body. In my mind there's more to it than that.
MHX Zero
An entirely separate debate which we argued to a stalemate, however I do not believe one should be trying to logically apply gameplay and cutscene logic in the same manner. You could have a field day with quite a few games that way. Thus notions of Zero's gameplay abilities in MHX are irrelevant.
If Zero is to be obsessed only with proving himself better than X, he is doomed to repeat Forte's fate of sometimes being at odds with his own creator's plans.
If we're to presume Wily is pursuing world domination during his alliance with Gate, as you have previously argued, then this already happened when Zero fought High Max. And Wily not only did not care, but was delighted.
Bear in mind that Zero is derived in some manner from Bass, I don't think a similarity between them would be odd at all. However, a key difference is that Bass seeks recognition as the world's mightiest robot. Zero on the other hand tends to be indifferent to the opinions of others.
Only when we ignore Sigma.
Sigma claims that Zero is meant to follow him. I do not consider him a reliable source as to Zero's true nature. He strikes me as someone who doesn't know what he's dealing with. He has gotten a peek at it, however, which is more than any non-Wily-linked entity can say for themselves during the X-series, so X8's Complete Guide doesn't really tell us much. Sigma lusts for power, and sees untapped power within Zero. I don't see why it has to go any deeper than that.
There is a bit of a trickle-down effect here from our differing views on Wily's allegiance to the evil big-shots of 21XX. You believe him to be honestly working towards the goals of Sigma and Gate and as such there is less room for doubt in second-hand information. I do not. That heavily impacts the reliability of Sigma's words. But even if this was not the case it would not be absolute, since there is the eternal question of how much Sigma saw/was told and how much he is assuming.
As such the reappearance of it in the Zero series demonstrates a greater understanding of Zero's past and perhaps his body than has been known to anyone outside of Wily and Sigma for the known series beforehand.
That X, and by logical extension Zero, are more fully understood in Zero-series timeframe than before is common knowledge. The Big Four, Zero's weapon data, the modified Z-Saber, and Zero's copy body all point to that.
And, although perhaps canonically questionable, you could say the same of Command Mission's Absolute Zero.
The two working together in X5 both fail at returning Zero to his intended self.
I have a hard time believing that Weil succeeded where Wily failed. I don't believe that Zero's "justice" self is without relevance to Wily's design, or that Wily honestly attempted to remove it outright. To override/push it aside, that's another matter.
Again, our differing views on Wily's 21XX goals heavily influence our views on other aspects of the storyline. Wily's intent is an aspect of the storyline which is left very open-ended, and at the same time it heavily impacts the rest of the story. Individual interpretation goes a long way.
Better ideas might be to spray one's enemy with an evil virus upon defeat.
Given X's high viral immunity, that's hardly a sure thing.
To actually make a secondary personality that would take over based on damage taken and subsequently be extremely difficult to re-submerge is so counter productive that maybe only someone truly mad would think it's a good idea.
Because Wily is the model of sanity.
There's a lot to take into account, though. For one thing the assumption that Wily hasn't had a change of heart over the course of Zero's development is in and of itself a rather large one, given that Rockman World II already established other possibilities (would go a long way to explaining the interchangeable busters).
There's also the fact that a virtuous personna can more likely live and battle without being hunted down. Zero, like X, grows more powerful through combat. If he spent his entirely life as a destructive force it'd make him a target, possibly hindering his progress depending on how the current-day technology compares to his own performance.
As for Zero starting out evil, that could be a necessity of him being the initial virus carrier. Then there's the infamous blue-gem-of-death. Zero wasn't beaten fair and square in X4, a mysterious W on his head stopped him. Given that Inafune has stated that the virus ties to Wily's revival, there is a LOT of room for speculation as to what was going on there.
It is the exact same can of worms. The important feature is the premise itself, not in how the details play out. That is that Weil used portions of the same personality program for Omega that Wily wrote for Zero.
Either way it is fact that Weil had a hand in Omega's programming. Without the ability to differentiate what Weil did and did not write, we cannot take traits from one and apply them to the other, rather the two must be judged as individuals. That's been my point all along. Statements such as "they're the same character with a different master" are highly speculative, and I personally believe, false.
Omega in no way shames the evil Zero's legacy.
Of course not. But I find Omega to specialize more in longevity than in offense. The mass destruction associated with him is generally attributed to Weil's armor. In one-on-one combat, I don't see Omega (that is, Zero body) as matching AZ.
Omega's move that's labeled Messenko isn't much like the one from X5 (though Model OX's is).
As I discussed when you revealed those terms, I believe that to be a typo. Model OX's moves are clearly derived from Omega's attacks of the opposite names, and Omega's attacks from X5/X6 attacks of again opposite names. In other words, X-series reversed yeilds Omega, which reversed again yields OX, so that X-series matches to OX. Basic pattern recognition says that was most likely an error.
I can't help but smile at Messenko being labeled inferior, though. The normal 9-blast Messenko of X5 would have been much harder to dodge than the CPU Zeros' 8-blast Shin Messenko. Despite its name it really is a nerfed version that allows the player a more sporting chance. Of course Omega's moves are realistically nerfed too, and that doesn't mean that they aren't canonically more powerful than gameplay makes them appear. It is a fuzzy transition from story to gameplay.
True enough, but I'd definitely call Omega's Messenko (Rekkoha by the guide) more nerfed than Shin Messenko.
Adding "Kai" under normal circumstances would imply that the revision is an improvement upon the former, but this seems to be the opposite if evaluated simply from gameplay. I conjecture that its canonical form lies somewhere less than invincible instant kill move
I doubt it canonically renders Zero invulnerable given the lack of visual effects. I do not doubt that it would canonically annihilate whatever is unfortunate enough to get caught in the attack, again, given that once you see it victory is impossible.
"Kai" is the arguably weaker form regardless. The original Genmurei uses two blades in a wider pattern. Genmurei Kai fires only one blade at a time (albeit he performs the move in a set of three, but then Awakened Zero is not limited in the number of Genmureis he can perform in a set). Being able to dodge a 2-blade attack is plenty conceivable, you'd need only alter the flight path.
but was utilized in gameplay to give added challenge by adding a time limit to the battle.
I have to object to that. It is far more of a challenge to intentionally view Genmurei than it is to prevent it, as the time it takes before Zero will use it is ridiculously long. Genmurei strikes me not as a challenge but as an easter egg, in reference to Sigma's line of Zero "almost" evolving into his true self. I cannot imagine anyone has ever seen it unless they were intentionally stalling.
The lesson is hardly that evil is stronger than good, or that Awakened Zero is invincible.
X (and Zero as well) continuously grows stronger over time. Evil CAN be stronger momentarily, as canonically happened with High Max, Great Redips, and who knows how many X1 opponents. X would rise to the challenge if given due time. The only way to kill him would be to make a substantial leap and act then swiftly so as to not give him that chance (I never thought of this, but maybe that's why Zero faced X before the transformation was finished, the longer the wait the more of a gamble, as baddies have known since Xtreme2).
High Max WAS invulnerable. Completely. There was absolutely nothing X could do to harm him. Next bout, X's buster stuns him, a definite leg up from before. So even in such utter hopelessness X can still prevail in due time. But if High Max obtained such status (temporarily), then why couldn't Awakened Zero (again, temporarily)? Especially since High Max is himself a Zero derivative.
Gate's battle armor follows the same principle, being vulnerable only to its own energy.
Omega, merged with the Dark Elf, would have even more right to be invincible
I am not convinced that the Dark Elf is an adequate substitute for a colony full of Sigma/Zero Virus. Dark Elf is derived from Mother Elf, a force of good. Dark Elf has viral origins in that Mother Elf was derived from virus research, however that doesn't necessarily mean that it mimicks Zero's reaction with it (does the Nightmare awaken Zero?). Mother/Dark Elf can power up any host and Omega is exceedingly powerful in his own right, thus the combination is naturally devastating. I'm still not convinced that matches Awakened Zero.
That Omega doesn't use it might be a bit disappointing, but not seeing him using Genmurei or Shingetsurin doesn't necessarily mean he can't use it. Just like CPU Ultimate X in X5 not using Nova Strike or many of his other X4 or even X5 special moves doesn't necessarily mean he can't.
I'd say X has a far wider arsenal (to say nothing of him being a likely less ruthless opponent, as he is not fighting with intent to kill) than the evil Zeros. By your own admission Omega's arsenal is the widest yet delivered.
What enters into gameplay is but one aspect of such a character.
True enough.
Still, if Omega had used it, would that really prove the case he is Zero's evil persona?
I really mentioned that as more of a power comparison than a personna comparison, granted that line is blurred as Awakened Zero's personna is seemingly linked to such unlocked power.
How honestly can a technique Zero hasn't used before X5 be directly related to his original personality which was programmed before Zero even acquires the weapon which he would use to perform it?
The general superior prowess with the saber as opposed to the buster flies in the face of that regardless. I believe you mentioned earlier the possible lack of optimization in the X1 body. Throughout both X6 and Z1 it is made abundantly clear that the Z-Saber is linked to Zero's power.
End of Part 1. I'll tackle the rest later if I feel so inclined.
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You know, when Japanese translations from X5 started appearing in that wall of text. I was hoping you'd provide a translation for the Japanese equivalent of X5's "partner" line. Too bad....
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You know, when Japanese translations from X5 started appearing in that wall of text. I was hoping you'd provide a translation for the Japanese equivalent of X5's "partner" line. Too bad....
1st form
シグマ
「…………クククッ
「…さすが…
最強のレプリロイド…
「…よそういじょうに
くるのがはやかったな…」
エックス
「なんのために!
こんなことをしたんだ!?」
シグマ
「…ゼロだ…
ゼロのめをさますためだ…」
エックス
「…なんだと!」
シグマ
「あれから、おまえたちを
いろいろと研究してな…
「すばらしいじじつが
わかったのだよ。
「…どうしてもゼロの
しんのすがたがみたくてな…
「ウィルスを地上にばらまき、
ヤツの体をきよめたのだが…
「…ウィルスのりょうが
たりなかった。
「そこであのオンボロの
コロニーを…
「ウィルスコロニーとして
地上とドッキングさせた。
「けっかは、しってのとおりだ」
エックス
「そんなくだらないことで!
「地球がほろびるかも
しれなかったんだぞ!」
シグマ
「さいわい、イレギュラー
ハンターという…
「ヒマなヤツらがいて、
地球めつぼうはないと…
「しかし、そのハンターも
ほとんどが…
「イレギュラー化して
しまったからな…クククッ
「危なかったな。
ワーハッハッハッ!」
エックス
「…く、くそっ!おまえのせいで
どれだけのなかまが…
「…ゆるさない!
ゆるさないぞっ!シグマ!」
2nd form
シグマ
「…………クククッ
「やはり最強だな、
エックス…
「それだけ強いと、
どうしても、たおしたくなる…
「ゼロとおまえを戦わせても…
「ムダだった…
「さすが最強だ、敵、みかた
かんけいなしに戦えるしな。」
エックス
「…だまれ!どこにいる!?」
シグマ
「ここだよ、にげも
かくれもせん…
「じつはな、こんかいよき
パートナーがいてな…
「いろいろとサポートして
くれたのだよ。
「かこに、かぞえきれないほどの
ロボットをつくったらしく…
「いまからみせる最強のボディも
あたえてくれた。
「おまえがくるのが、はやかった
ので、みかんせいだがな…
「まー、これでじゅうぶんだ。
「たのもしいパートナー、
いや、どうしだった…
「だれよりも、おまえに
たいするいじょうな…
「しゅうちゃくしん…
たのもしかったよ…
「わたしいがいにいたのだよ…
「おまえをにくむ
じんぶつが…
「にくしみをくらうがいい!
死ね!エックス!」
I'd wager it half the battle. Walls of text? Expect me to read that?
(http://t-shirts.factorc.net/images/produto_tshirt_LOL.gif_39.gif)
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JESUS H. CHRIST, Marshy. O_o
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I tried to read it although it took me awhile but await for what Zan, Oakes and Hypershell come up with.
How can I forget Shin? 8D
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This page takes entirely too long to scroll through.
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Okay, here we go. Again, I feel this discussion has reached the point of both of us explaining personal opinion until we're bored to death, and I've long since passed that point. So I'll just chime in at some key lines and leave it at that, this discussion has already gotten unproductive to me. We both know where the other's opinion lies and re-stating it over and over isn't going to get us anywhere.
Hype, I was hoping you were going to impress me, but I can't even tell from that reply if you even bothered to read my entire post. I've provided references and written out translations to support my points and to refute other ones. I have explored questions you asked and asked more of my own. I've done nothing but restate my opinion? It's all unproductive? If you don't bother reading it, then perhaps it is for you, though others can still read, learn, and draw their own conclusions. Why do you keep coming back if you're so bored with it? I like the topic. I think back and forth is the only way to find flaws with one's reasoning and arrive at a better solution. That's not just me challenging you, it's you challenging me. If you don't care, you don't have to continue with me. But if you do come back, I hope you give it your all instead of prefacing your arguments with excuses of disinterest.
An entirely separate debate which we argued to a stalemate, however I do not believe one should be trying to logically apply gameplay and cutscene logic in the same manner. You could have a field day with quite a few games that way. Thus notions of Zero's gameplay abilities in MHX are irrelevant.
Gameplay can't be taken on its own, but it is impossible to shun entirely, many things are only expressed through it, because we are dealing with a game. I'm getting a big double standard vibe from you here. Awakened Zero's attacks are story related, and Omega Zero's attacks are proof he's weaker, but Zero's abilities in MHX aren't relevant at all? A little hypocritical, isn't it?
If we're to presume Wily is pursuing world domination during his alliance with Gate, as you have previously argued, then this already happened when Zero fought High Max. And Wily not only did not care, but was delighted.
I give Isoc fair credit to be excited his masterpiece fought so well despite the setback. But flushing Zero out was part of the game for him all along, and he is (finally) prepared this time against Zero's meddling, so the risk Zero actually poses in that situation is severely minimized. Despite this he won't endanger his joint plan with Gate for his personal goal here, despite the opportunity. And yes, we've talked about it before.
At any rate, I do not imagine Wily would be so giddy when Awakened Zero gets up and defends X after that battle, or when he destroys the colony without Awakening at all. Sigma yuks it up when he loses at times, too, doesn't mean he didn't play for serious (except maybe in X5's intro).
Bear in mind that Zero is derived in some manner from Bass, I don't think a similarity between them would be odd at all.
I'm bearing in mind that Wily acknowledges Bass' willfulness and disobedience as regretfully annoying and that disloyalty is something that needs to be ensured against.
Sigma claims that Zero is meant to follow him. I do not consider him a reliable source as to Zero's true nature.
Is that untrue? Serges and Wily stand by Sigma, and the evilly revived Zero does the same when things go according to their plans.
He has gotten a peek at it, however, which is more than any non-Wily-linked entity can say for themselves during the X-series, so X8's Complete Guide doesn't really tell us much. Sigma lusts for power, and sees untapped power within Zero. I don't see why it has to go any deeper than that.
Sigma has researched Zero himself, Sigma has contact and conspired with Zero's creator, Sigma has Zero's DNA within itself and recognizes that it has changed him... how do these facts not make the connection much deeper than that already?
There is a bit of a trickle-down effect here from our differing views on Wily's allegiance to the evil big-shots of 21XX. You believe him to be honestly working towards the goals of Sigma and Gate and as such there is less room for doubt in second-hand information. I do not. That heavily impacts the reliability of Sigma's words. But even if this was not the case it would not be absolute, since there is the eternal question of how much Sigma saw/was told and how much he is assuming.
Skepticism is healthy, but Sigma's words and Wily's intentions need to fit into a bigger picture, and doubting them for the sake of doubting them is only useful if one can draw a conclusion from it that works as a theory to satisfy the plot. Occam's shaving kit, the best theory is the one with the fewest contradictions (preferably none). I base that belief on the supporting foundation that it integrates with. Nothing in the book quote I provided speaks against directly his understanding as being accurate. Wily's actions, not what he might do but what he actually does in X2 and X5 in supporting Sigma do not contradict the notion of helping him, or that Zero is a tool for world domination, nor does his Power Fighters ending. That destroying X is all he should do is not a contradiction but a reinforcement of what Zero's role in world domination was always intended to be, to crush the greatest threat to the plans (currently X), and any other hero who may stand in the way (previously Rock and Bass). If Wily does not wish to rule the world anymore, he still wants Zero to win against X, thus his partnership with Sigma towards that end is genuine. If Wily does want to rule the world, AND if for some reason Wily can't cooperate on this with Sigma (a contradiction to Sigma's assessment of how awesome they work together), Wily may betray him, but only after they have succeeded, which still entails that to succeed to get to that point he is working with Sigma in earnest, even if he has a plan to doublecross. In this event following Sigma statement is still accurate, except that it extends to only so long as Wily is on Sigma's side, and because such a scenario is proof that Wily hasn't given up his ambitions, Sigma's assertion that Zero was intended to be the world destroyer is still true.
I have a hard time believing that Weil succeeded where Wily failed.
Weil literally became dictator of the world, far more than Wily had yet ever managed while alive or as a robo-ghost. In some ways, Weil is Wily made dangerously competent. Not literally, but in the role he plays as the mad scientist villain is just way more serious. Some mad scientists try to take over the world and dream of revenge, but Wiel actually gets to do it. He might only rule for the better half of the year, but that's a lot more King of the World time than Wily, Sigma, or Gate ever had. Having a Zero that actually follows his orders is another reflection of that.
I don't believe that Zero's "justice" self is without relevance to Wily's design, or that Wily honestly attempted to remove it outright. To override/push it aside, that's another matter.
But, why? What makes you think Wily wanted it that way? How is it that to Wily's benefit? The better half of my last post was to probe just how that makes any sense to say, in particular when it is contradictory to other evidence in the narrative. Don't tell me you believe it, I already know. Justify your belief.
There's a lot to take into account, though. For one thing the assumption that Wily hasn't had a change of heart over the course of Zero's development is in and of itself a rather large one, given that Rockman World II already established other possibilities (would go a long way to explaining the interchangeable busters).
Is your method of refuting the ending narrative of Power Fighters and the implication of Perfect Memories is to pretend it doesn't exist, in favor of pretending that the World 2 future is unchangeable despite that we're literally told that time travel can change the future?
Interchangeable busters because they were designed to be buddies raises far more immediate questions than it answers. As in, why Dr. Light holo doesn't know Zero's creator, why he can't build armors for Zero when their designs are clearly interconnected and interchangeable, how did Light and Wily get together on these projects after they were already started, and how did the nature of this suddenly joint project end? History remembers Wily as the villain, the legendary mad scientist, the man whose deplorable antics Dr. Light makes reference to in his warnings, Power Fighters foreshadowed he's not quitting, so on top of the above, how does this explanation satisfy the facts better than the several other more mundane explanations?
There's also the fact that a virtuous personna can more likely live and battle without being hunted down. Zero, like X, grows more powerful through combat. If he spent his entirely life as a destructive force it'd make him a target, possibly hindering his progress depending on how the current-day technology compares to his own performance.
Zero learns through battle, so he should avoid battle? Putting down more enemies means more skills, well, if the robots he's fighting have skills worth learning from. If they're no threat, they're no threat whether they hunt him or not. If they are a threat, Zero is at risk whether he's fighting heroes or villains, and there's no rationale that Zero needs to be heroic to not destroy everything he comes across, only for there to be instructions not to do so if that ever was a worry.
As for Zero starting out evil, that could be a necessity of him being the initial virus carrier. Then there's the infamous blue-gem-of-death. Zero wasn't beaten fair and square in X4, a mysterious W on his head stopped him. Given that Inafune has stated that the virus ties to Wily's revival, there is a LOT of room for speculation as to what was going on there.
And do you have a theory which ties this together with the discussion, or contradict what I believe, or are you just throwing in with the unknown?
Either way it is fact that Weil had a hand in Omega's programming. Without the ability to differentiate what Weil did and did not write, we cannot take traits from one and apply them to the other, rather the two must be judged as individuals. That's been my point all along. Statements such as "they're the same character with a different master" are highly speculative, and I personally believe, false.
My point at the start was that they do have similarities, and are suggested as similar in fact by the game creators, and by analyzing Zero and his connections given through the stories and sources, we gain greater insight. This was not even an assertion of fact, mind you, but one of possibility, and probability. There are no facts to prove that Omega cannot share Zero's personality with that programming change, or even further since Awakening is a temptation existing within Zero and a choice to be embraced, that he himself could choose it. So do you believe it because it honestly makes the most sense as deductive reasoning from the story and that Inti doesn't know what they're talking about and Inafune's statement connecting the two was completely misleading... or do you just plain not like it?
Of course not. But I find Omega to specialize more in longevity than in offense. The mass destruction associated with him is generally attributed to Weil's armor. In one-on-one combat, I don't see Omega (that is, Zero body) as matching AZ.
Like I already said, but failed to quote so I'll do so now, guidebooks suggest Omega Zero is the "strongest" form of the villain, like in the Zero 3 Kanzen Kouryakubon, page 131.
巨大化したオメガを倒したゼロに、最強の敵が迫る！！
Zero's defeated the giant Omega, but the strongest enemy now draws near!!
The armor rocks fighting and mass destruction, and the giant form even better, but for one on one, third form is the God O.D. Is there any reason besides your take on gameplay to say he can't hold his own with AZ?
I doubt it canonically renders Zero invulnerable given the lack of visual effects. I do not doubt that it would canonically annihilate whatever is unfortunate enough to get caught in the attack, again, given that once you see it victory is impossible.
Again, you reach the conclusion because of gameplay, which you've already said is faulty and once already denied its usefulness for comparisons outright. Outside of gameplay, one hit from a beam blade weapon in the right spot is often all a character gets. So one hit kill, 2-dimensional world, no way to win, should be weighed with a grain of canon salt, right?
I have to object to that. It is far more of a challenge to intentionally view Genmurei than it is to prevent it, as the time it takes before Zero will use it is ridiculously long. Genmurei strikes me not as a challenge but as an easter egg, in reference to Sigma's line of Zero "almost" evolving into his true self. I cannot imagine anyone has ever seen it unless they were intentionally stalling.
I don't disagree that it seems more difficult for me to actually wait the 2-3 minutes without killing him for the attack to arrive, but a time limit gimmick that is literally how it's presented in the X5 Hisshou Kouryakuhou, even if it is probably more generous than skilled players should need to put away such a boss. But given time limits to win against a boss are often well within range to skilled players anyway, unless you're doing an uncharged buster run. One could also look upon it as the programmers giving players who toy with AZ a little punishment for making a mockery of him. Still, I suppose there may also be players out there somewhere who've literally taken the entire time fighting in earnest. Granted, I don't think I've met them yet.
Sigma's funerary line for Zero didn't go the same in the J-version, and was addressed in my reply above (seriously, did you read it?) Awakened Zero wasn't almost his true self, he was is it. Or, so Sigma believes in the Japanese story. I find it funny that you give Sigma so little credit to make reliable statements about Zero's true self, yet you latched onto that one. If you believed that Sigma's understanding of Zero is bogus, why did you trust him there? After shown to be a mistranslation, do you still trust his original judgment on the matter?
High Max WAS invulnerable. Completely. There was absolutely nothing X could do to harm him. Next bout, X's buster stuns him, a definite leg up from before. So even in such utter hopelessness X can still prevail in due time. But if High Max obtained such status (temporarily), then why couldn't Awakened Zero (again, temporarily)? Especially since High Max is himself a Zero derivative.
I have no problem with temporarily invulnerability for Awakened Zero, even good Zero gets such a boost from the virus in gameplay, and Gate's developed shield system for High Max and eventually is an improved version of what he derived from Zero's DNA, though perhaps none of these are true invincibility, just protection from certain modes of attack. Omega has a move he can't be harmed during too. A lot of bosses do, actually, and even geting hit can invoke temporary invincibility for the player and bosses as well, which somewhat diminishes the impressiveness unless we try to narrow down certain times when its presence is actually relevant.
I was actually contending with the notion that when Zero is truly Awakened, he is suddenly invincible all the time and with an attack that vastly outpowers X and even Omega because of it. After all, he was Awakened already.
The general superior prowess with the saber as opposed to the buster flies in the face of that regardless. I believe you mentioned earlier the possible lack of optimization in the X1 body. Throughout both X6 and Z1 it is made abundantly clear that the Z-Saber is linked to Zero's power.
Zero does pretty well with a lot of weapons, X8 and the Zero series shows he sometimes even apply skills he learns to them in a unique way. Beam swords are the standard of cool, but even the anachronistic Zero plans from Power Fighters don't show him with one. X4's flashback showed us that he's competent with steel poles early on, so lets figure that Zero has basic skills with many weapons, and his learning system can allow him to make an even greater mastery of such weapons, since that follows the progression of how Zero actually utilizes his saber over time. Zero champions the sword, as does Omega, but neither one is limited to its use nor is powerless without it. Don't confuse favoring a weapon with being the source of one's power.
So, anyway....
Zan's request, props for Rod yet again! Cropped for relevance/laziness...
(final monologue before second round)
Sigma: I'm right here, I won't run or hide... The truth is, lately I've had an excellent partner.... who's provided me support in many ways. In the past, it seems [he's] created countless robots... And [he's] bestowed upon me the strongest body ever seen... You've come a little earlier than expected, so it isn't quite complete... but, it should be enough. [He's] been such a devoted partner, nay, a comrade... [He] may oppose you more than anything... like an obsession... devoted indeed... So there was someone besides just me... someone who hates you... Get ready to receive our hatred! Die! X!
"He" is in brackets because Sigma doesn't specify the gender of his partner to X, unlike Zero's version which is specifically an old man. Although "comrade" is the million dollar term that was misapplied to X in the official translation, if it were up to me, I would have probably chosen "companion" instead. But then combined with "partner" and "devoted" I'd probably be accused by Rod as being another Boco. In Japan it's okay for male friends to talk this way about each other. Please divert all "Sigma x Wily robo-manlove" comments to a separate thread, this one's long enough as it is.
Edit: Fixed 4 typos.
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Hype, I was hoping you were going to impress me, but I can't even tell from that reply if you even bothered to read my entire post.
Lack of time, my fluffy man. And I meant that in a generalized sense, not as an absolute. If I saw nothing new whatsoever I wouldn't have started the response that I did.
But frankly, you're testing my endurance. It's not that I don't see any value to these discussions, I do, it's just that the typing-to-insight ratio has long since been on the decline, and right now it's really getting out of hand. The fact that the discussion is revived from two months ago doesn't help any.
I would suggest looking me up on AIM if there are aspects of this you want to continue. Writing half a book before the opposing party gets to comment can be extremely tiresome.
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(final monologue before second round)
Thanks for the translation, that certainly clarifies that.
Another letter brick in the text wall
Taking a few select points from the discussion...
On the matter of the Zero initially created without the Virus. I feel like I'm kinda in the middle of either your opinions. I do not think Wily created a hero purposely, but I do think he had a plan to take out that glaring weakness of his previous masterpieces. When examining Zero's mental capabilities, we must acknowledge how similar to Repliroids it truly is. With its mention in the questionable three keys, we must take into account the high probability of Zero's mental state being defined by the same "circuit" as X has.
On the matter of Wily's allegiance with others. I think Wily's a rather curious character all in all, and that's what makes him deep. He's the bad guy, surely. But he has a lot of redeeming qualities still in him, as demonstrated many times. He gives his own robots tremendous amounts of freedom, he loves all of them, but his anger can be as unforgiving as absolute as his orders are. Likewise, for all his hate, for all his annoyances, he even seems to like his own mortal adversaries; in his rivalry with Right he's never, in his constant struggles with Rockman, he has his own moral standards by which he lives. He's even once worried for his own enemy's will being.
All of that carries over into the X-series. I think Wily's joining forces with Sigma and Gate is quite genuine. He seems to truly like seeing others try and reach for the same goal as him. But all the same, he himself is not actively trying to achieve it anymore. Likewise, he can capture Zero at any time, but has not done so with much intensity. Wily kindly took a back seat in the grandiose plans that have unfolded, but just as easily he's the kind of person to suddenly take up action again and enter the stage casting away all his former bonds. In a very similar manner, Wily is contend seeing the world go to oblivion, but he also has no qualms seeing it saved. Such paradoxes between good and evil seems to define Wily's character.
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I don't have a messenger program, though it's been coming up a lot lately, maybe I will get one.
In the meantime, the beautiful thing about message boards is that there is no need to hurry. There's no time limit for replying, and as long as the board isn't reset it'll still be there, waiting. I didn't have time with vacation, job and school and everything else. Came back to it when the time and the willpower were right. There's no rush.
When examining Zero's mental capabilities, we must acknowledge how similar to Repliroids it truly is. With its mention in the questionable three keys, we must take into account the high probability of Zero's mental state being defined by the same "circuit" as X has.
Suffering circuit causes more suffering to fans than it seems to for reploids. If it had a mention in some other matter besides early concept material, I'd be more inclined to acknowledge it. Still, I don't mind brainstorming about it though.
If Suffering Circuit is the "true form" of the virus because the virus infects it in higher thinking robots, then Zero's viral DNA program should be essentially the anti-suffering circuit, that pushes the user to one side, or perhaps, to be uncaring towards either side. If Sigma damaged it, maybe the remaining portion operated more like a regular one, or Cain could have identified its damage and attempted to fix it, creating a unique hybrid circuit that yielded super high viral resistance.
I think Wily's joining forces with Sigma and Gate is quite genuine. He seems to truly like seeing others try and reach for the same goal as him. But all the same, he himself is not actively trying to achieve it anymore. Likewise, he can capture Zero at any time, but has not done so with much intensity. Wily kindly took a back seat in the grandiose plans that have unfolded, but just as easily he's the kind of person to suddenly take up action again and enter the stage casting away all his former bonds. In a very similar manner, Wily is contend seeing the world go to oblivion, but he also has no qualms seeing it saved.
If we never see Wily again in the X series, I think indeed the best explanation for his departure is that he has changed, or that Zero has changed him. Zero's power is shown a success in many ways, even against the "more advanced" and "stronger" forms that were applied in High Max and Gate, and perhaps even the ultimate battle body Wily built for Sigma in X5 was no match for him, depending on what Zero's role in that fight was. He validates Wily's genius, if not his ambition. If Wily's given up participating in villain stuff, it's because he's finally taken enough pride in Zero and respect for who Zero is to believe in something outside of himself again, like a true father caring for his son's well being over his own.
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Suffering circuit causes more suffering to fans than it seems to for reploids. If it had a mention in some other matter besides early concept material, I'd be more inclined to acknowledge it. Still, I don't mind brainstorming about it though.
If Suffering Circuit is the "true form" of the virus because the virus infects it in higher thinking robots, then Zero's viral DNA program should be essentially the anti-suffering circuit, that pushes the user to one side, or perhaps, to be uncaring towards either side. If Sigma damaged it, maybe the remaining portion operated more like a regular one, or Cain could have identified its damage and attempted to fix it, creating a unique hybrid circuit that yielded super high viral resistance.
I didn't mean it quite like that. Just that Zero's mental capabilities, being a "Repliroid" and all, were made to be similar to X and therefore include the function of worrying. With Worrying, his character is highly likely a virtuous one by default, as Hypershell proposed. Wily might have preferred aspects such as the enhanced processing power of Right's circuit, but this aspect is one that he needs to cancel out.
As we know, the Virus can controls the hearts of Repliroids. We've seen this change countless Repliroids from good to evil and we've seen what becoming one with this very Virus can do to a person. That a Zero capable of "worrying" works in combination with this Virus becomes very clear once we consider that he was intended to be built to be evil; not for justice. Wily employed that Virus to counter what he consider negative side effects of that circuit's use. As such, the virtuous Zero is just an unfortunate byproduct of his approach.
As for Zero's viral resistance, I think that's a thing that could warrant a topic on its own, much like the appearance of the mysterious W that started the circumstance that led to the transfer of the very Virus that resurrected Wily.
To make a long story short, I feel it's probably just a combination of Zero's Wily designed correlation with the Virus which empowers him in large quantities, the effort needed to purify the virtuous Zero to his original state, and the method of viral injection (direct or indirect). I don't think it's something that developed over time, just as much as I honestly wouldn't put much thought behind Cain's meddling. Cain probably just fixed up the gem, scratched the back of his head in puzzled amazement and was honestly surprised when Zero woke up without irregularities.
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He validates Wily's genius, if not his ambition. If Wily's given up participating in villain stuff, it's because he's finally taken enough pride in Zero and respect for who Zero is to believe in something outside of himself again, like a true father caring for his son's well being over his own.
A pleasing thought.
Heh, character development after your death...
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Zero doesn't need X's circuitry designs to adapt to a new code of morality and ethics, robots like Ballade and King previously set the standard for that kind of growth, and without X's extreme form of worrying which good Zero doesn't seem to match with regardless. The ability for Wily to design a smart robot that learns and adapts beyond its origins is already in place.
But supposing Wily is (somehow) copying Light's latest brain designs thinking that they will give some fast-processing edge despite that Light's purpose in the worrying design is to allow the robot be intelligent and sensitive enough to avoid the kind of unethical activities that Wily routinely assigns to his robots, then Wily has some serious adapting to do to suit his purposes. If the worrying is the work of a single chip vs the entire brain, better to just chuck that out and create his own evil version of that chip in its stead. If this is a more general and integrated programming algorithm, then with cutting pasting and splicing evil code which eventually becomes known as the virus is the method of choice. In either regard Zero's eventual heroism is not by default, but by some manner of error or miscalculation. The good side is not meant to be operating without or above the evil side, for the evil as the "true" form is desired above all, and Zero operating without this in firm place is to Wily essentially broken and malfunctioning.
How it came to be malfunctioning is the semantic scene-stealer. If Wily's evil code was never properly a match to cancel out the more noble effects of the circuitry, if that "W" in the X4 flashback scene was the rejection of the darkness or an error of ethical conflict arising, then it was perhaps inevitably Wily's failure inherent in design. Never properly managing to counteract that which he himself had dangerously set into his creation, Wily played with fire and got burned, with none to blame but himself.
Yet contrary to that lies the effects of the virus whose influence can be seen on the vast numbers reploids who are known explicitly to be inheriting some of X's circuit designs and even simpler mechaniloids who are not. One would ask why it works so well on so many but not on the one it was designed to be integrated with in the first place. But in fact, for a while at least, it does seem to work. Zero's evil persona is working fine, at least up until the "W" lights up. In X2 Serges can make it work again for a time, and X5 as well. It would seem then that the concept he utilized is sound in theory, if not yet perfected. The extremes to which must be gone to achieve it grow seemingly greater, the element in Zero which refuses the process perhaps grows stronger.
It is also possible that the "W" was related to some other ill-timed anomaly. Perhaps a triggered memory of Wily from during construction not unlike X's flashback in Day of Sigma, but meant to gain Zero's attention and push him onto destiny's path. Or Wily himself brought back to life by the virus from data within Zero's head, or attempting to communicate with Zero directly into his mind. If something of this nature, Wily's evil programming was still a success, maybe more than Wily himself had dreamed. Only the timing of the situation is amiss.
When applying Inafune's statement, the first hypothesis includes only the circumstance of Wily's design failure at an unfortunate moment, denying Sigma or Cain's presence being necessary or even an influence in the change within him. The latter more heavily relies on the combination of Sigma's involvement in the scenario, damaging Zero's brain and inadvertently siphoning the virus programming into himself, possibly ejecting the spirit form of Wily as well. Without memories and bloodlust Zero can adapt himself anew to the world, but without Sigma being there to take advantage of Zero's momentary weakness there well could have been no such change for the long haired god of destruction.