RockmanPM Forums
Rockman & Community => Rockman Series => Topic started by: Waifu on February 04, 2009, 06:13:03 AM
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Although the InfaKing has pretty said that Zero would never kill all the other MM characters, does that mean that the cateclysm has been silenced? He never did say what happen to the Classic characters in the X series or he may have implied it but I just didn't know about it or observe it. But was does this mean for all the so called cateclysm theories that had been thrown around for many years? I am hoping for someone like Zan or Hypershell to enlighten me on this.
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I'm kind of playing Devil's Advocate here, but it's really suspicious how he qualified that statement. How "it wasn't in his personality/how [Keiji] designed him."
Well, yeah, maybe he didn't want Zero to have killed off the cast, but what did Capcom want to happen?
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We'll never know, since Inafune is really the only one at Capcom who ever talks about Megaman.
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His "no killing policy" plus that statement really put the final nail in the coffin. Oh, Takeshita san also touched on the issue once:
1UP: A lot of fans hoped that MM9 would bridge the story gap between the classic series and the X series, where it's hinted that the original Mega Man and his friends had all been killed at some point in the distant past. Do you ever intend to tell that story?
HT: This seems like a rumor that goes around in certain circles, but it is not official. Certainly, the two series are set in different time periods, but they share the same spectacular world. There might be a bridge for the chronological gap someday, but I don't think it's time yet.
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The Great Cateclysm: Silenced Forever?
There will always be idiots that'll keep on believing it. Just like there are people that still believe X is Rock.
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What I don't understand is how it just wasn't in his personality. The X4 cutscene, which started the Cataclysm theory, clearly shows Zero as psychotic. So how is "psychotic" not in his personality?
Not saying that the Cataclysm theory holds water, but ... the answer's pretty fishy.
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That was Wily-controlled (virus, I guess?) Zero rather than Zero left to himself, though..
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Now wait a minute, gentlemen & ladies. Let's not jump to conclusions here. Perhaps the Cataclysm theory has been put to rest, but we have yet to explore the Cateclysm theory. Perhaps Dr. Wily's LAST last creation, Cate, rose up and killed all the classic series bots, and then Zero awakened and put a stop to Cate's evil efforts, but then was infected himself with Cate's madness chip, so Dr. Wily sealed Zero up for 200 years in order to fulfill his desire. But Zero awoke too early, and like the morning person he isn't, got cranky and went wild.
Prove me wrong!
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They all died from old age.
Except for Roll.
She became Ciel.
You morons.
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That was Wily-controlled (virus, I guess?) Zero rather than Zero left to himself, though..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maverick_(Mega_Man) info here seem to contradict this idea. Read the origins. Not saying Wikipedia is 100% accurate, but ... I have heard the "Patient Zero" theory has been discredited. Inafune's answer seems to be in conflict with this. Not saying it's not what he intnded, but ... there's a missing piece of the puzzle there.
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Probably made up Zero's story as they went along. On X4 he thought "Oh hey let's make him psycho, even though he was a nice guy in X1-X3."
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Probably made up Zero's story as they went along. On X4 he thought "Oh hey let's make him psycho, even though he was a nice guy in X1-X3."
That's what I'm guessing. That flashback is also in conflict with Mav Hunter X (Sigma's eye scars).
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... there's a missing piece of the puzzle there.
I think it's called shoddy video game writing. That's my assumption.
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Everyone knows that Rush killed all the characters from classic Megaman.
Why do you think X didn't have a dog?
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Come to think of it.
X really needed a pet sidekick.
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Come to think of it.
X really needed a pet sidekick.
But he has one, I don't think the gaming press would ever get it's facts wrong.
And the cateclysum lives on in our hearts.
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I think it's Axl.
I don't think X ever toilet trained him, because he made a huge mess all over X7.
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Axl can turn into a pet sidekick. Just let him copy Valguarder.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maverick_(Mega_Man)
Is that bit about the origins copied verbatim from the compendium? I don't recall hearing that Dr Cain installed the 'suffering circuit' in Zero.
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That's what I'm guessing. That flashback is also in conflict with Mav Hunter X (Sigma's eye scars).
Wasn't the Maverick Hunter X series supposed to be a reboot of most of the storyline anyways? I think this one could be excused due to that. Also:
I think it's Axl.
I don't think X ever toilet trained him, because he made a huge mess all over X7.
Brilliance.
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Is that bit about the origins copied verbatim from the compendium? I don't recall hearing that Dr Cain installed the 'suffering circuit' in Zero.
Likely not. But that is often quoted and seems to be as accuracte as we'll get. Zan can fill you in more on it. Or PB or Marshy. My official stance is that it's a big mess. BS, in other words.
I wish the sourcebooks were directly translated, so we could be smarter about this. But .... won't happen.
I think this one could be excused due to that.
I disagree and call shinnanigans on Capcom. They obviously just forgot about X4 covering it and put it into Mav X. They need to get their stories stright.
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What I don't understand is how it just wasn't in his personality.
Inafune never said "personality", he said it wasn't in his profile. As in, establishing Zero's background, he never once intended Zero to do such a thing. And you know, absolutely everything in the games says that is the case. He was sealed by Wily for the future, the only thing he did prior was being constructed.
Prove me wrong!
They all died from old age.
Everyone knows that Rush killed all the characters from classic Megaman.
Nobody died, nobody killed.
1UP: A lot of fans hoped that MM9 would bridge the story gap between the classic series and the X series, where it's hinted that the original Mega Man and his friends had all been killed at some point in the distant past. Do you ever intend to tell that story?
HT: This seems like a rumor that goes around in certain circles, but it is not official. Certainly, the two series are set in different time periods, but they share the same spectacular world. There might be a bridge for the chronological gap someday, but I don't think it's time yet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maverick_(Mega_Man) info here seem to contradict this idea. Read the origins. Not saying Wikipedia is 100% accurate, but ... I have heard the "Patient Zero" theory has been discredited. Inafune's answer seems to be in conflict with this. Not saying it's not what he intnded, but ... there's a missing piece of the puzzle there.
Wikipedia is filled with bullshit by people who neither understand RZOCW nor can read obvious disclaimers that says certain info is not canon.
Someone who maybe Wily put the Sigma Virus inside Zero. That much is FACT. Just as much fact as that the Virus transferred to Sigma. RZCOW says nothing else, "Zero is the first infected with the Sigma Virus."
RZOCW's Three Keys Sigma Virus section is non-canonical vagueness, nothing concrete, nothing that retcons, nothing factual. Only the statements that align with the canon sources are to be considered.
That section says the following:
The true essence of Sigma Virus is the circuit of mental suffering that Right put in X. Nothing is said of the origin of Sigma Virus, only such a vague thing as an essence (The essence of Sigma Virus is what? Control of all Repliroids! To awaken Zero!) RZOCW dodges the matter of the essence of Sigma Virus and continues to describe the function of the circuit of mental suffering as it should function in all Repliroids to avoid bias between human and Repliroids (robots) in a society where both coexist.
It then continues to say that Zero is the first infected, and events led to Zero, who was created by Wily to be a complete evil Repliroid, becoming good despite his infection. Which is the introduction to the point that Zero unknowingly spread the Virus from within him during missions, which leads to his admission in the research institute.
Seriously, NOTHING in RZOCW disagrees with Wily creating the Virus to put inside of Zero to awaken him to his true evil self. Why would Wily not have made it when Perfect Memories says that Wily maybe the one that did it?! Why bother making up convoluted stories about evil personality programs and circuits magically merging when X8 Sigma (made after RZOCW!) says that the Sigma Virus that infected him came from Zero's DNA?! If X5 didn't slap you in the face with it yet, Zero Virus and everything, you're talking about the same Virus that brought Wily back to life!
For completion's sake, here's the quote I mentioned from Perfect Memories:
Exactly what kinds of secrets are sleeping in Zero's past?
Zero has almost no memory of the past. However, sometimes he seems to see a person resembling Dr. Wily in his dreams. And it's also said that Zero was born with the Sigma Virus already inside of him. His creation is it actually to battle with whom? One would never think it was for justice, however...
X: He was made by Dr. Right. Will the time for his fated battle with Zero come?
Dr. Wily: The one who put the Sigma Virus in Zero is, perhaps him......
Probably made up Zero's story as they went along. On X4 he thought "Oh hey let's make him psycho, even though he was a nice guy in X1-X3."
Except he was psycho in X2's alternate scenario and was already said to be made by Wily back then.
That's what I'm guessing. That flashback is also in conflict with Mav Hunter X (Sigma's eye scars).
If Zero inflicted Sigma's eye scars, half his face would be purple. Sigma got repaired, plain and simple. Not to mention, it's his own choice that he's keeping those scars. He's died over a dozen times, his face too got remade 'again and again'. It's simply symbolism that relates to the two people that led to Sigma's philosophy of evolution and rebellion, X and Zero. His tattered pride, the Virus, Limitless Potential and justice.
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There's author intent on those eye scars. Obviously he could get them repaired, so it's not a plot hole, but it's still inconsistant in my book.
As for the rest, though I'm not inclined to disagree. I don't have the sourcebooks and none of them are properly translated. It's possible you're right and Wikipedia's entry is full of fanon. You're a much bigger fan of the X series than I am.
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Of course, it's fanon. You just have to flip open and read the respective pages on MMZOCW to realize that. The particular section might have a very bad official translation, but that's no excuse for people to ignore the disclaimer:
Page 166:
Sigma Virus
ZERO1
A terrifying Virus that makes Reploids go Maverick. Initially, Zero was the only one infected with the Virus, but as he traveled the world to battle Mavericks, he unwittingly spread the Virus.
Page 167:
Underground Laboratory (Forgotten Laboratory)
ZERO 1
The facility built to house Zero, who was discovered to be the source of the Sigma Virus outbreak. For half a century, Zero was used in many Sigma Virus-related experiments. This laboratory is also where Ciel's ancestors studied Cyber-elves, and where Weil created Omega. But because all records of its existance were wiped from history by Neo Arcadia, only a select few still know where it is.
Page 174:
THE THREE KEYS TO SOLVING THE MYSTERY OF ZERO AND OMEGA.
Zero and Omega are two Reploids with a very complex bond, and they engage in a memorable battle in Zero 3. Here, we examine the background information regarding the three key elements that tie these two together in an attempt to reveal some previously unknown angles to the story.
(NOTE; The information that follows comes from the early concept phases for the Zero series' scenario, and therefore may not be canonical.")
Sigma Virus
The dreadful Sigma Virus that transforms repliroid to irregular.
(The terrifying virus that causes a Reploid to go Maverick.)
The true essence of which, was a suffering circuit Right inserted into X during the time of his creation.
(The virus actually originated from one of the circuits that Dr. Light installed in X's brain.)
A repliroid which possesses a suffering circuit,
in regards to a society where humans and repliroids coexist,
so as to be biased towards neither side,
it is fated always to worry continuously as to which side it should stand upon.
(The circuits function was to keep X neutral and unbiased in matters concerning humans and Reploids. Tragically, the very same circuit condemned X to a life plagued by the philosophical question that weighed the value of humans against that of Reploids - a question to which there was no answer. )
Zero was the first repliroid to be infected with the Sigma Virus but
Zero which was developed by Wily to be a completely evil repliroid,
despite being infected by Sigma Virus isn't transformed into an iregular, [instead]
was reborn as a good repliroid.
(Zero was the first Reploid to be infected by the virus, but as an android created solely for evil, destructive purposes by Dr. Wily, the virus affected him uniquely. Instead of going Maverick, the virus turned Zero into a warrior driven by goodness, not evil.)
But,
as Zero bustled about for the sake of fulfilling his missions as an Iregular Hunter
the Sigma virus lying dormant within his own body was scattered throughout the world
inviting an ironic result.
And so Zero, having become carrier of the Sigma Virus, was admitted to the research facility.
(Unfortunately, by tirelessly fulfilling his destiny as a Maverick Hunter, Zero inadvertently spread the virus throughout the world. Eventually, as the host of the virus, Zero was taken to a research facility for study.)
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You say "of course", but nobody has done a a full translation of the materials. From my perspective what is and is not fanon is all very questionable.
Although here I'm not inclined to disagree.
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They expired.
You guys are thinking too hard.
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They expired.
You guys are thinking too hard.
Rightot in RockmanX3.
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He didn't expire.
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I like to think that Dr. Light sealed all of the classic series characters away in capsuls, and they'll all just waiting for the day when they're found again.
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They just separated to walk the path of evereyone's own destiny. The entire cast is still alive and well. Even in the Legends Saga.
Except for Protoman. He really expired.
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oh theyre all just fne and dandy. remember that little bin where I mentioned Douglas, lifesavor, and Cain are? thats where they are too. :D they were the FIRST residents.
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Light's dead of old age, Megaman and his ilk are in a museum somewhere, etc.
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Megaman and his ilk are in a museum somewhere, etc.
Rock doesn't do museums, he's a hero.
They expired.
Come to think of it, he doesn't have an experiation date either, so no.
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Rock doesn't do museums, he's a hero.
(http://xs136.xs.to/xs136/09064/mmz_4_ending593.png) (http://xs.to)
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Rock doesn't do museums, he's a hero.
Staple rule in heroes: They all die. Either from old age/expiring, exploding areas, going down swinging, or being eaten alive by The Blob apparently.
Rock and co(.) eventually kick the bucket one way or another. If not by some retarded "Zero killed them all plot", than by maybe the Eurassa incident, or the Elf Wars, or probably shot by Ragnarok. It's more likely for Rock to have went down swinging and clean at one point and end up in a Museum to "honor" him or whatever they do in that little world--than for him to skip around, having fun with Rush and taking plasma shots for a tree. (First one to get that reference gets a cookie. :cookie: )
*puts on a Priest robe* And I quote, from the holy book of Amazing Spiderman, Volume 2 issue 34: "I always knew that sooner or later, I'd lose. It's math, you see. Statistics. No one wins forever." Sooooo... he's dead. If not by one thing, than by another. Hero or not, Museum or not.
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Staple rule in heroes: They all die.
Firstly, it's a staple of mortals in general to die.
Secondly, Rock being a robot would get repaired, like anybody else in the series.
Third, time travel and space are all possibilities for Rock to get out of the setting without having to die for the X-series to occur.
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Firstly, it's a staple of mortals in general to die.
I should correct myself then. "All heroes die in brutal ways, defending what they believe in. The term "Hero" tends to not be truly decided on until said person is deceased and the look back on how their life was carried out was done. Not by wide opinion anyway.
Let us have a game of logic shall we? Logic would--after all--indicate that a good amount of people would think Rock was just as bad as Wily's bots simply for being in the fray after all. People caught in the crossfires of Wily's robots would see Rock and a good enough number would think "Damn robot! Always the robots!" like little bigoted people they could be. :P For that sake, at the present time of his actions, he could not be deemed a hero.
Only until after him dying and they would look back on what he's done for them, and now, their left open for any attack without anyone there to defend them would he truly be deemed a hero for what he's done. Under that logic, only after his death can he be considered a hero. Until then, he's a robotic crime fighter. :P
But that would never be shown in the -Classic- game series. So that kinda makes my point a moot point, now doesn't it? >_>
Secondly, Rock being a robot would get repaired, like anybody else in the series.
The X Hunters and King would like to have a word with you. :P
Third, time travel and space are all possibilities for Rock to get out of the setting without having to die for the X-series to occur.
I highly doubt Rock went to the future or past to live a new life away from everything he's defended. Maybe ---MAYBE he could have left the planet with Duo but at best, that's fanon guess's. And it's not so much that his death would be vital to the X-series occurring but rather, would give X more meaning. To have a name to live up to, one to honor and one to deserve and carry after the original Rockman would be deceased.
Rock's death would carry more significance to X and that series than "Rock went to become a robot with Justice Energy like Duo", or just becoming Quint and that's it.
While I don't believe that Zero killed him and everyone else, I do think he went down swinging.
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After reading the section about Super Adventure Rockman in R20, I began to doubt the Cataclysm Theory. Although as much as fans would have wanted to see Zero brutally murder all but Dr. Right and Wily, the creator's word stands: Mixing a game for children (Classic Rockman) with a mature story [spoiler](In this case, UN helicopters getting shot down, Dr. Right, Roll and Quickman dying.)[/spoiler] is not a good idea.
Like X, Zero most likely got buried at the end of Dr. Wily's lifetime.
I mean, think like a child. Would you want to see your favorite cartoon characters murdered? I don't think so.
Rock and the gang probably just kept on functioning until their systems ran down. (Except for Blues. He probably went up in a nukuler (sic) explosion.)
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Rightot in RockmanX3.
Oh fine.
They all went on to live fulfilling lives as porn stars in an alternate dimension.
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And many Catholic priests were arrested for filming those in the basement.
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Rock doesn't do museums, he's a hero.
Go Nagai example:
Mazinger Z, Great Mazinger, and the first Getter Robo are all in museums after their initial series' ends.
though Getter Robo is an odd one seeing as Musashi practically vaporizes it along with almost all of the reptilinoid empire.. >>;
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Capcom would never kill Megaman in any sort of permenant way. They see him as a hero to children everywhere. It's the same sort of reason why Megaman is never a bad guy (it's always some sort of clone). I don't think we'll ever see the origional meeting X in any canon way, but I don't think we'll ever hear that MM died.
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Capcom would never kill Megaman in any sort of permenant way. They see him as a hero to children everywhere. It's the same sort of reason why Megaman is never a bad guy (it's always some sort of clone).
I whole heartedly welcome that. MM is fine as it is. It doesn't need blood and gore and other crap to make it GRRRRRRRRRIMDARK.
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The X Hunters and King would like to have a word with you. Tongue
The Counter-Hunters are irregular repliroids that have served their purpose to Sigma and are illegal to revive by law.
King isn't dead. And if he was, it wholly depends on Wily's interest to revive him or not. Besides, Rockman has given burials to robots before, thinking they're dead, only for them to reappear moments later revived and all.
To have a name to live up to, one to honor and one to deserve and carry after the original Rockman would be deceased.
That name exists regardless of Rock's fate. Just look at how Zero is famed even though he sealed himself away.
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I whole heartedly welcome that. MM is fine as it is. It doesn't need blood and gore and other crap to make it GRRRRRRRRRIMDARK.
(http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/474/1222555536947fg2.jpg)
PURGE THE UNCLEAN
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Next thing you know, he says "Purge the Carbons!"...
...
IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW
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Well, yeah, they are inhuman monsters. Can't just let abominations go around corrupting planets, they'll have to be cleansed.
S'the only option, really.
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X didn't have an animal sidekick, but Sigma sure did.
Well, hey, just have Axl transform into Rush, and now he's actually useful.
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(http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/474/1222555536947fg2.jpg)
DARTH MAN
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It's a space marine, you fool.
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Roll is a housekeeping robot for Dr. Light, correct?
Then under MM9 laws, when Dr. Light kicks the bucket, Roll will be scheduled for termination since her housekeeping duties are done. Rock, originally being a housekeeping bot as well, would have the same circumstances.
But they could be reassigned to new human employers. And this doesn't explain how at the end of MM9, the 8 RMs were allowed to live. And Bass? He's a destructive pain in the rear and a combat robot. Does he have an expiration date? In an ironic twist of fate, since he was created to destroy Rock, does that mean he's scheduled for termination the day Rock/Dr. Light bite it?
Moreover, do you honestly think he'd let humans scrap him?
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Then under MM9 laws, when Dr. Light kicks the bucket, Roll will be scheduled for termination since her housekeeping duties are done. Rock, originally being a housekeeping bot as well, would have the same circumstances.
No. As Dr. Right's personal robot, she is not under the expiration date law. Rock isn't either. Besides, they predate the law. Even the Rockman9 robots dodged the law by being with Dr. Right. The law is for mass produced robots that work for society.
And Bass? He's a destructive pain in the rear and a combat robot. Does he have an expiration date?
Wily doesn't have anything to do with the law either.
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What makes you so sure of these exceptions?
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Because they'd be dead already if they weren't.
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Of course! They can't die until Zero kills them! 8D
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These conversations make me wonder why the hell I still have any love for Megaman at all.
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Um. Don't pay attention to them? Now I'm no scientist---but I play one on tv. :P But it would seem that not paying attention to them may work. >_>
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These conversations make me wonder why the hell I still have any love for Megaman at all.
You're easily discouraged.
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I'm the same way with Sonic the Hedgehog. Between either company's bullshit and a large portion of the fanbases for both franchises, I spend half of my time wanting to just wash my hands of it.
But I can't quite bring myself to do so simply because I've got a deeply-rooted love of some of it, I think.
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I'm the same way with Sonic the Hedgehog. Between either company's bullshit and a large portion of the fanbases for both franchises, I spend half of my time wanting to just wash my hands of it.
But I can't quite bring myself to do so simply because I've got a deeply-rooted love of some of it, I think.
You could just ignore them, play the games you like and toss the games that suck aside?
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Well, my main problem with Megaman at the moment is that the games I do like aren't being made anymore. The last one I gave two shits about was ZX Advent, and that was what, two years ago now? Even then, Capcom USA couldn't be bothered to spend more than a hundred bucks localizing it, and so the game got ridiculed for poor translation and abhorrent voice acting. That certainly didn't help matters. I fear any half-assed attempt Capcom makes to continue it will be met with the same treatment.
The Maverick Hunter X series had huge potential, but Capcom decided to act like a bunch of retarded chimpanzees and release it on a system that nobody in Japan even owned, and now they'll never touch it again. X9 doesn't seem too likely to me either, at least not an X9 that would surpass or even simply match X8 in quality.
And we all know Megaman Legends 3 is never going to happen unless one of us hands Inafune $15,000,000 in cash (he's probably inflated that figure to $20,000,000 by now).
I liked EXE... for the first three games. The latter three and Starfuc--er, Starforce never should've even occured. Although at least EXE5 and 6 were tolerable; I played through the first Starforce game and wanted to fly to Japan to kick Inafune in the balls afterward. The battle system is 100% Grade-A Recycled, Watered-Down Bullshit. Just like the plot (the sole exception being the subplot with Sonia, which is the only part of the entire game I actually liked). I'm not even going to bother with 2 and 3, because I know it's only more of the same.
So where does that leave us? ...With Inafune now planning to milk even more MM Classic games out of the NES. We're at 7 out of 10 so far. I'm sure it's great for all you retro fanatics, but I never even liked the original Megaman games. They're too [tornado fang]ing hard.
So yeah. Perhaps I'll feel a little better when Capcom actually makes another game I like.
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I'm sure it's great for all you retro fanatics, but I never even liked the original Megaman games. They're too [tornado fang]ing hard.
...Hard? Wow, I guess I'm more hardcore than I thought. 8D
Anyway, all you can really do is hope for the best. If not, then it's just time to move on really. Capcom doesn't make MM games that you want anymore, so just move on and wait until they do. No sense getting upset about it. I waited 10+ years for a new Classic game, so anything's possible.
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I suppose so. Also:
(http://www.crowdedstreet.net/threaddirection.jpg)
Sorry about that.
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Happens all the time.
In fact, a thread gets re-railed if the topic is interesting enough. Natural flow.
Just don't care.
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So where does that leave us? ...With Inafune now planning to milk even more MM Classic games out of the NES. We're at 7 out of 10 so far. I'm sure it's great for all you retro fanatics, but I never even liked the original Megaman games. They're too [tornado fang]ing hard.
And that's why Capcom USA added an EASY mode to the second game. Go play that. Not to mention how Powered Up also has an EASY mode, you can easily work your way up to making these games [tornado fang]ing EASY.
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Mega Man 2 (USA & PAL)
NORMAL (It doesn't say EASY)
> DIFFICULT (Japan's default setting)
And everyone's right about the difficulty. You just have to get adjusted to the games and how things tend to move fast for you to avoid things. Lucky for you, the Easy mode for Powered Up slows down things and it doesn't pack a lot of beating either, so take it easy there, and build up your skills from that to Normal and you're on a good way to become a great player at Classic Mega Man. A series (besides the Bass additions) that didn't depend on dashing or wall-climbing to save your behind. ^^
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Hey, I like being agile.
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Mega Man 2 (USA & PAL)
NORMAL (It doesn't say EASY)
> DIFFICULT (Japan's default setting)
Propaganda.
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That's a lot of propaganda to spurt out of the haystack of the Big C and land on our door steps.
But I believe you for now. ^^
(http://www.rockmanpm.com/i/original/nes_megaman2.png)
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Well, my main problem with Megaman at the moment is that the games I do like aren't being made anymore. The last one I gave two shits about was ZX Advent, and that was what, two years ago now? Even then, Capcom USA couldn't be bothered to spend more than a hundred bucks localizing it, and so the game got ridiculed for poor translation and abhorrent voice acting. That certainly didn't help matters. I fear any half-assed attempt Capcom makes to continue it will be met with the same treatment.
The Maverick Hunter X series had huge potential, but Capcom decided to act like a bunch of retarded chimpanzees and release it on a system that nobody in Japan even owned, and now they'll never touch it again. X9 doesn't seem too likely to me either, at least not an X9 that would surpass or even simply match X8 in quality.
And we all know Megaman Legends 3 is never going to happen unless one of us hands Inafune $15,000,000 in cash (he's probably inflated that figure to $20,000,000 by now).
I liked EXE... for the first three games. The latter three and Starfuc--er, Starforce never should've even occured. Although at least EXE5 and 6 were tolerable; I played through the first Starforce game and wanted to fly to Japan to kick Inafune in the balls afterward. The battle system is 100% Grade-A Recycled, Watered-Down Bullshit. Just like the plot (the sole exception being the subplot with Sonia, which is the only part of the entire game I actually liked). I'm not even going to bother with 2 and 3, because I know it's only more of the same.
So where does that leave us? ...With Inafune now planning to milk even more MM Classic games out of the NES. We're at 7 out of 10 so far. I'm sure it's great for all you retro fanatics, but I never even liked the original Megaman games. They're too [tornado fang]ing hard.
So yeah. Perhaps I'll feel a little better when Capcom actually makes another game I like.
I somewhat agree with you. since i *somewhat* enjoyed the SF series. the last great BN game IMHO was BN3. iut started going downhill from there. I mean, look at 6, thats not even a CHALLENGE. you have very good chips available to buy VERY early in the game, making it easy as [parasitic bomb], whereas in 3, you had to fork over an arm and a leg in the undernet, which was also annoying as heck in order to be able to buy ONE super duper chip. SF has the same problem.
but I digress.
its true, that they were very stupid in releasing MHX on the PSp=P. it was still too new I think. they should have just stuck with the PS2. nobody would have minded it. or even better, once they saw the sales on the PSP wernt working out, they could have ported ito over to the PS2. we might have had a MHX2 by now.
and then theres Advent. yeah. it STILL baffles me why they used the X7 cast when they had already moved on to the much better Ocean group for 2 X games already. seriously. I STILL dont get it. and god help me if ZX3 has the same voice cast I will throw my game out the window.
and I agree on the NES bit... a little. the MMclasic nes games were hard, but think about it, if they were too easy, they would have been too short. plus, they are that hard that when you beat it, it really feels satisfying. however, that era has PASSED. if you want to make an NES game for nostalgia, its ok. one game for the nostalgia is acceptable and even desirable. its kind of silly that theyd make it a mainstream game, but thats overlookable. it was Megamans anniversary, and it was retro. but if they think they can abuse the excuse of "retro" and "nostalgia" to crap out NES game after Nes game, then there seriously stupid. and incredibly lazy. the same goes for a Snes style X9. that would be just being lazy, and just screwing with the plot further. because lets face it... with the depth and complexity the X series has grown in terms of storytelling, how much story do you think can really be told and twisted around in an Snes game? ecause if they make it, then they are, 9if MM9 is anything to go by,) going to basically make another X1. you dont get an air dash, and we'd be lucky if we get Zero. and forget Axl. how the hell are they going to Snesify a character that requires more for him to work? he has multi directional rapid firing. and can copy enemies forms. as well as hover and air dash from the start. those things never existed in the Snes X series, and if capcom decides to stick to the "true Snes style" of the X series, Axl will get messed up. BIG time. then Zero. if we even get him, Snes Zero has never really been portrayed too well I think. i dont remember who here it was who said it, but I agree. in the X snes series, he was still buster only. i wonder how well they would portray him now that hes saber only? especially since his abilities have also evolved. he now uses multiple types of Melee weapons, and has a few more complicated moves. as well as being able to double jump and air dash from the start. he would probably be degraded bad. or, they could pull a MM9, and make him a DL character like protoman, but with no story as well.
dammnit capcom.... >__<
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two tl;dr's in a row.
i heard complaining about MHX in there. Capcom may very well rerelease it and MMPU on PSN. that could help jog interest.
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I totally wouldn't mind if the MHX and MMPU series get continued on PSN. In fact, that would be great.
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And everyone's right about the difficulty. You just have to get adjusted to the games and how things tend to move fast for you to avoid things.
Yeah, the games tend to force you to practice a bit before you can get very far into them. I think that's why they started adding intro stages; it encourages casual players to keep going when they can say "Hey, that was easy, I can do this!" But I also like the style of having plenty of resistance right up front, which is how it naturally is in a game where you earn your abilities level-by-level.
its true, that they were very stupid in releasing MHX on the PSp=P. it was still too new I think. they should have just stuck with the PS2. nobody would have minded it. or even better, once they saw the sales on the PSP wernt working out, they could have ported ito over to the PS2. we might have had a MHX2 by now.
DS, man, DS!
but if they think they can abuse the excuse of "retro" and "nostalgia" to crap out NES game after Nes game, then there seriously stupid. and incredibly lazy.
It's not lazy if they find ways to make it fresh each time. There's still a lot of room to work with in the retro style. Just look at how many different kinds of games were made for the real NES!
you dont get an air dash, and we'd be lucky if we get Zero. and forget Axl. how the hell are they going to Snesify a character that requires more for him to work? he has multi directional rapid firing. and can copy enemies forms. as well as hover and air dash from the start. those things never existed in the Snes X series, and if capcom decides to stick to the "true Snes style" of the X series, Axl will get messed up. BIG time. then Zero. if we even get him, Snes Zero has never really been portrayed too well I think. i dont remember who here it was who said it, but I agree. in the X snes series, he was still buster only. i wonder how well they would portray him now that hes saber only? especially since his abilities have also evolved. he now uses multiple types of Melee weapons, and has a few more complicated moves. as well as being able to double jump and air dash from the start. he would probably be degraded bad. or, they could pull a MM9, and make him a DL character like protoman, but with no story as well.
dammnit capcom.... >__<
Now you're just getting angry about something that doesn't even exist yet. How do you know they would have to dumb it down so much to make it X1-X3 style? And how do you know it would be a bad thing if they did? I mean, look at how many abilities were added just between X1 and X3. Zero's well known for being a swordsman now. If he can have all his sword moves on the Game Boy Color, why not on the Super Nintendo? Axl's moves don't sound that difficult to implement either. Even if it would be too much for an SNES game, that doesn't mean it wouldn't happen in a game that's only trying to look like one.
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If Inafune's involved, Axl won't even -be- there.
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I can live without Axl, to be honest.
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Oh come on, he was just starting to get likeable in X8.
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He still feels out of place to me.
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It's not lazy if they find ways to make it fresh each time. There's still a lot of room to work with in the retro style. Just look at how many different kinds of games were made for the real NES!
the thing is, they need to learn how to be retro but to not need to rehash. "retro" dosnt mean rehashing 16 year old graphics. its understandable for once or twice, but they need to learn that simply giving it old graphics doesnt make it retro. teres plenty of ways to make it retro and nostalgic without NEEDING to use the NES or SNES graphic styles
also, a lot of people would prefer a game they can actually hold in their hands as opposed to a "digital" game that can very easily lost with system crash or a broken system. I for one feel that way anyway. also, if its a DLable game, that also limits the quality and depth it can have. your not going to find a game like MGS4 on the Xbox marketplace. nor will you ever. however, something "simple" like an NES game, youll find plenty of.
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that also limits the quality and depth it can have.
...Exactly what quantity or depth are you looking for from a MegaMan game?
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. also, if its a DLable game, that also limits the quality and depth it can have. your not going to find a game like MGS4 on the Xbox marketplace. nor will you ever. however, something "simple" like an NES game, youll find plenty of.
Of course you'll never find MGS4 in the Xbox Marketplace, its a PS3 exclusive :P
Besides, I assure you you'll find MGS4 in the Playstation Network in a couple of console generations, it's just a matter of time and we all know it.
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...Exactly what quantity or depth are you looking for from a MegaMan game?
well, I wouldnt expect to find Command mission there either. and X8 is a maybe.
Of course you'll never find MGS4 in the Xbox Marketplace, its a PS3 exclusive :P
Besides, I assure you you'll find MGS4 in the Playstation Network in a couple of console generations, it's just a matter of time and we all know it.
you get my point though. and were not talking about future console generations. they dont count. im discussing the CURRENT consoles.
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If Inafune's involved, Axl won't even -be- there.
Inafune was involved with ZXA with takes a million and one concepts from Axl's storyline, to the point it won't work unless those games happened. Furthermore, Inafune has had influence on Axl's design, and he expressed interest in Axl, but he said he would personally handled him differently.
The only reason Axl would ever be excluded if a game was made that occurred chronologically before X7.
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What would have happen if the InafKing had his hand on Axl?
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What would have happen if the InafKing had his hand on Axl?
I don´t know, but I would have liked to see him in the Zero series as the deuteragonist and playable character. Inti Creatives, why haven`t you give Axl the attention which he deserves. ;O;
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Capcom would never kill Megaman in any sort of permenant way. They see him as a hero to children everywhere. It's the same sort of reason why Megaman is never a bad guy (it's always some sort of clone). I don't think we'll ever see the origional meeting X in any canon way, but I don't think we'll ever hear that MM died.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't X slated to be the villian in Megaman Zero before Copy X?
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thats not Capcom. thats Inticreates.
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Well, nevertheless, as I hear it; it was still Inafune's intentions.
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I dont think it was. I know they showed him the concept, but they eventually decided it would be like crushing a a little kids dreams, so they made Copy-X.
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That's a good point. Going back to the prequel series then would be depressing, because you'd think "I know this guy turns into a baddie anyway, so why should I help him fulfill his role in the story?"
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Thread's over. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW49DwMJkns)
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't X slated to be the villian in Megaman Zero before Copy X?
But he wasn't the main villain. Because MM is a hero to children everywhere.
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MegaMan is a friend to all children, just like Gamera!
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MegaMan is a friend to all children, just like Gamera!
Yeah, but when you're a teenager ... hooBOY, does he turn a cold shoulder!
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Megaman and his buddies decided to share the tragic fate of becoming cereal mascots, obviously.
Capcom obviously wouldn't kill them physically, so it had to execute them...spiritually. That's why you don't see them anymore. They're alive and dead at the same time.
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Well, nevertheless, as I hear it; it was still Inafune's intentions.
Why did you decide to make X the last boss?
AIZU: The last boss was a very popular topic of discussion, and we visited the Capcom offices many times to try and get a consensus. The descision was produced from these discussions, although it was more of a joke at first. Tsuda just kind of said, "What if we made X the last boss?" to which Inafune responded with, "Sure, why not," and that, as they say, was that. Once we were sure that X was really going to be the last boss, we asked Nakayama to do some drawings to that effect, and the proposal just grew from there. As a note of interest, at this time the last boss X was original X and not Copy X. It really wasn't until just before release that we decided to change it to Copy X.
"Just before release?"
AIZU: ... a month before release? (laughs)
ITO: Yeah, I think that's about right. We realized that having the original X as the last boss and having him done away like that wouldn't sit so well with all the young boys and girls that really do see him as a hero. On top of that, the "X" series was still continuing, so we put in an emergency stop and inserted
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So intead of having him "done away" like that, they decide to have him "done away" by a [tornado fang]ing whiny little [sonic slicer] having a nervous breakdown because things didn't go as planned, while he had no way to defend himself. Yeah. Because that's so much better.
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Yeah! That is just bunch of [parasitic bomb]! If they had ended the X series at X5 or X6, we wouldn't have these plot holes and X would have had his Elysium utopia.
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I'm not sure I could ever count Elpizo stabbing his vacant body as X dying in any sense except the most technical.
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Considering X was already disembodied before that, yeah. He's not really any more dead after the stabbing than he was before.
So intead of having him "done away" like that, they decide to have him "done away" by a [tornado fang]ing whiny little [sonic slicer] having a nervous breakdown because things didn't go as planned, while he had no way to defend himself. Yeah. Because that's so much better.
Most here can tell you that I'm not the biggest Elpizo fan. But frankly, yes, I DO prefer Z2's scenario of having someone stab X's empty shell, as opposed to having Zero kill him. No matter how much a Zero fanboy I may be, I wouldn't want to see X turn genuinely evil. The idea of a copy showing us how sick and dangerous he could become if he wasn't careful fills that need just as well without damaging him as a character.
Yeah! That is just bunch of [parasitic bomb]! If they had ended the X series at X5 or X6, we wouldn't have these plot holes and X would have had his Elysium utopia.
Please. X5 had the worst plothole of them all: Zero died in a FREAKING BOSS EXPLOSION, regardless of proximity I might add.
Yes, Inticreates did the same thing in Z3 with Harpuia and co., but at least they weren't stupid enough to write the game that way originally. They just had an "Oh, SH*#!" moment while they were developing ZX.
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I'm not sure I could ever count Elpizo stabbing his vacant body as X dying in any sense except the most technical.
true, but it kinda makes it a bit more "concrete" that hes now dead for sure, since now his body is gone as well. before, if his body was ever removed from the seal, Im pretty sure he could still have been re integrated into his body, but now, theres no such hope. plus, the way I see it, his vacant body was his Cyber elf's power source. hence he no longer had an infinite amount of power provided by his body, and faded away in Z3.
also, I must know. when Ciel found Zero in Z1, was he also Disembodied? as the drama tracks make it seem that way.
Most here can tell you that I'm not the biggest Elpizo fan. But frankly, yes, I DO prefer Z2's scenario of having someone stab X's empty shell, as opposed to having Zero kill him. No matter how much a Zero fanboy I may be, I wouldn't want to see X turn genuinely evil. The idea of a copy showing us how sick and dangerous he could become if he wasn't careful fills that need just as well without damaging him as a character.
personally I fond the Elpizo destruction of X's body far more dramatic than dying simply from the unwritten rule that the main character always beats the boss.
plus Copy X is almost like the embodiment of Light's fears of what could become of X if his internal systems wernt tested for such a long time.
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Elpis destroying X's body and proclaiming he'll create a world without humans was one of the most epic moments of Rockman history. ZERO4's final moments are even more epic, but needed more art to go with it.
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Elpis destroying X's body and proclaiming he'll create a world without humans was one of the most epic moments of Rockman history.
No image macro to state how much I disagree with the above statement and damned if I bother to keep arguing that - but I do. So, whatever.
And eh, I'm with Kieran with this one, how X was offed compared to how he would have been originally offed = pot. Kettle. Black.
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Since we're just discussing opinions here, X in the Zero series is kind of a rough plot thread to me. He .... does a whole lot of nothing. And that's something I don't understand. Sure, he helps the resistance and all, but you'd think he's appear on TV and say "that guy over there is not me" or something.
I'm not sure you could say Elipso really killed X when he destroyed his body. It didn't seem to slow X down very much.
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No image macro to state how much I disagree with the above statement and damned if I bother to keep arguing that - but I do. So, whatever.
I'm a fan of X, but I could care less about whether he's offed by Zero or by Elpis. When it comes to that specific scene, it's all about the initial shock value. That moment of ZERO2 left me in awe, followed by wanting to beat Elpis even more.
And it'd be nice if censors would allow be to say the word "epic"......
Sure, he helps the resistance and all, but you'd think he's appear on TV and say "that guy over there is not me" or something.
Which is actually what he did.
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Go to your profile, "Look and Layout preferences" and mark "Leave words uncensored"?
I'm a fan of X, but I could care less about whether he's offed by Zero or by Elpis.
As I said... pot, kettle, black. Two wrongs don't make a right.
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But I like the other censored words. >.>
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Which is actually what he did.
When did he do that?? He let Copy X start his little mission and let everyone just think he was the real deal. Until it was uncovered that he wasn't.
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I see the word epic just fine.
he means like, on national Tv. but the thing is, no one was supposed to know that X died in the first place, or chaos would erupt. the same reason it wasnt revealed to the public when copy X was defeated. plus, it doesnt seem like X to broadcast himself across national television to announce that hes dead and theres a copy in his place. which when we go into that, lets see. what would happen if the ghost of X were to go on tv and announce that CX is a copy?
the results wouldnt be pretty I think.
Elpis destroying X's body and proclaiming he'll create a world without humans was one of the most epic moments of Rockman history. ZERO4's final moments are even more epic, but needed more art to go with it.
I agree actually. the initial shock of seeing that picture of Elpis with his sword through X's chest, and Xs body breaking apart with energy is shocking, and its like, NOOO! then theres the ensuing explosion, which tears apart the entire room. Xs body with his uknown unlimited power source, X with his limitless potential, exploding in that massive explosion was like,... i cant describe it. but its epic. though Z4's ending is somewhat dumbed down in its impact due to the fact of how cheap Zero deaths have become, so when Zero dies, its not so much of an inital shock as much as when yo analyze it fully and realize, whoa,... hes really not coming back. hes actually dead...
When did he do that?? He let Copy X start his little mission and let everyone just think he was the real deal. Until it was uncovered that he wasn't.
well, he appeared to the reseistance and announce the whole capslock TERMINATE THAT COPY OF ME WITH EXTREME PREJUDICE line.
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the results wouldnt be pretty I think.
Less pretty than the genocide Copy X was doing? And the control MK2 Copy let Wiel have?
Not to mention that the resistance's goal was to kill the copy anyway.
well, he appeared to the reseistance and announce the whole capslock TERMINATE THAT COPY OF ME WITH EXTREME PREJUDICE line.
Well, sure he appeared to the resistance .... and not the people who let Copy X run things because they thought he was the real X... or the general populace ...
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Everybody else either already knows X is a copy and doesn't care, or doesn't believe in little X fairies.
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Everybody else either already knows X is a copy and doesn't care, or doesn't believe in little X fairies.
So they don't believe in Cyber Elves? The same Elves that helped to win the Maverick War?
X could have done much more. Letting people know Copy X isn't him is one of the major things he doesn't bother to do. Game-logic it makes sence. Capcom wanted people to think that, maybe, X had gone bad (although they somewhat ruined the surprise by showing pictures of "Unkown X"). Logic-wise, though, it doesn't make much sence.
I have very little problems with the Z series, but X's role is one of them.
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So they don't believe in Cyber Elves? The same Elves that helped to win the Maverick War?
I said "X" fairies. As in, why would they believe a cyber elf is the hero X?
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I said "X" fairies. As in, why would they believe a cyber elf is the hero X?
And .... why wouldn't they? There's probably a lot of ways he could prove it.
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Inticreates. not Capcom. all it has to do with capcom is the characters and story presented by the X series.
also, Cyberelves? sunken library the elf war isnt something many know about. it was hidden in history to prevent a repeat.
and Cyber elves arent that widespread. they are mostly used by battle reploids and the like. even in ZX Cyber elves are not that known. Even Vent and Aile dont know that they are initially.
plus, only untill the ZX timeline did people recognize that when reploids died they became cyberelves. and even then, only certain ones can become "ghost like" cyberelves, as the rest simply become a little ball of emotions as ZX shows.
usually strong willed reploids who retain their will even through death.. EG phantom, X, Zero, the other Big 3.
Posted on: February 14, 2009, 08:56:49 PM
And .... why wouldn't they? There's probably a lot of ways he could prove it.
like how?
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only in ZX does Cyber elves become more known. and even then Vent and Aile still dont know that they are initially.
Except for the fact that NOBODY knows about cyber elves?
Only untill the ZX timeline did people recognize that when reploids died they became cyberelves. and even then
That's caused by Model V. Repliroids do not turn into cyber elves under normal condition. Only the exceptions do.
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well, I guess. its been a while since I played ZX. '>.>
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Inticreates. not Capcom.
What. Ever.
Nobody knows how that centuray old war ended or about Cyber Elves.
And that's mighty stupid. But just by existing he can prove that he exists.
like how?
Like displaying a knowledge only the real X would know of? Like acting, openly, in a way that the origional X acted? You know ... the sort of stuff the hero does when he proves he's the real hero and not some copy? That sort of stuff.
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What. Ever.
Not really. it does matter actually.
And that's mighty stupid. But just by existing he can prove that he exists.
so he can just say, Hay I exist, and therefore Im X? I dont quite get what you mean.
Like displaying a knowledge only the real X would know of? Like acting, openly, in a way that the origional X acted? You know ... the sort of stuff the hero does when he proves he's the real hero and not some copy? That sort of stuff.
what kind of knowledge would he have that people would recognize as something only X would know? that he was made by Light? no one even knows who Light is by then, and dont mention Zero, because people dont know him either. almost everything of the past is nearly if not entirely forgotten. theres very little X could use to prove himself as X. Only someone who actually knew him could recognize if he was or was not the real thing.
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Not really. it does matter actually.
No, it really doesn't. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Not really making a point with the above. You're just pointlessing picking apart a post.
so he can just say, Hay I exist, and therefore Im X? I dont quite get what you mean.
what kind of knowledge would he have that people would recognize as something only X would know? that he was made by Light? no one even knows who Light is by then, and dont mention Zero, because people dont know him either. almost everything of the past is nearly if not entirely forgotten. theres very little X could use to prove himself as X.
Good Lord, man! Use your imagination. Providing intimate details of someone's life is a pretty convincing argument. Moreso is acting, openly, as "the legendary hero that saved everyone from the Mavericks".
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what would X know about Random person A's life?
all because X was the leader of neo Arcadia doesnt mean he read the files on every person living there. he was the "president" so to speak, he governed. as long as the person in question wasnt a matter of discussion for whatever reeason, he wouldnt know anything about their LIFE.
and hacking into neo arcadia and getting info would only prove he knows how to hack.
also, anyone can act openly, and anyone can pretend to be a legendary hero. look at copy X. he boasts an awful lot of being a hero. (though his boasting is arrogant)
also, as far as the humans are concerned, they believe Copy X IS saving them from mavericks. remember, its reploids hes killing off. all in the name of keeping the humans happy, any reploid that so much as pretends to squish neo arcadias tower X with their fingers is branded a maverick.
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what would X know about Random person A's life?
all because X was the leader of neo Arcadia doesnt mean he read the files on every person living there. he was the "president" so to speak, he governed. as long as the person in question wasnt a matter of discussion for whatever reeason, he wouldnt know anything about their LIFE.
and hacking into neo arcadia and getting info would only prove he knows how to hack.
also, anyone can act openly, and anyone can pretend to be a legendary hero. look at copy X. he boasts an awful lot of being a hero. (though his boasting is arrogant)
also, as far as the humans are concerned, they believe Copy X IS saving them from mavericks. remember, its reploids hes killing off. all in the name of keeping the humans happy, any reploid that so much as pretends to squish neo arcadias tower X with their fingers is branded a maverick.
I'm talking about X displaying an intimate knowledge of HIS OWN life.
Copy X's actions aren't quite so pro-humanity in Zero 3. I question exactly how much freedom he gives humans in Zero 1. Although we're told they're as happy as sheep.
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Who's going to trust a little ball of light when it's quite obvious that the real X is ruling?
Elf X's reasons for why he's X:
Acts heroically. (How's he going to manage this, by the way?)
Knows facts about his life that are either going to be common knowledge, or useless because nobody else knows them so he may as well be making them up.
Copy X's reasons for why he's X:
Looks like X.
Is in charge of Neo Arcadia, like X.
Has been known to be X for years.
Has the support of people who knew X.
Is a hero who visibly does his best for the people, like X.
Even if people did somehow get convinced that he was really an imposter, he's got Harpuia and friends supporting him. Obviously they'd be able to tell who the real X is, so if they support him, he must be real.
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Who's going to trust a little ball of light when it's quite obvious that the real X is ruling?
Elf X's reasons for why he's X:
Acts heroically. (How's he going to manage this, by the way?)
Knows facts about his life that are either going to be common knowledge, or useless because nobody else knows them so he may as well be making them up.
Copy X's reasons for why he's X:
Looks like X.
Is in charge of Neo Arcadia, like X.
Has been known to be X for years.
Has the support of people who knew X.
Is a hero who visibly does his best for the people, like X.
Even if people did somehow get convinced that he was really an imposter, he's got Harpuia's and the rest's support. Obviously they'd be able to tell who the real X is.
Now, he doesn't HAVE to look like a ball of light. None of the Cyber Elves HAVE to look like balls of light. Even in the game he makes himself look more like how'd you would expect most of the time.
This is a more convincing argument, however, my problem is that he does not even try. And it's definately more of a problem in Zero 3, where Copy X acts more Maverick as time goes by and is clearly influenced by Wiel. I'd have less of a problem with him trying and failing to convince people he's the real X. As opposed to just letting people think he's the real deal and not trying at all.
I'm not sure about any of you guys, but if someone was committing genocide in my name, I'd try to clear the air. When characters don't try to clear the air of that, it smacks of peculiarity.
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which is why people think that it IS X gone maverick.
also, X doesnt try because of the afformentioned facts. it would be impossible to convince peoople who would dismiss it as X is clearly alive and well in Neo Arcadia.
plus hes given up trying. hes tired. hes tired of all that. he just let himself be swept away into the depths of cyberspace where he could finally truly rest from his destiny of endless fighting. remember Z1, eventually, he grew battle hardened, and it frightened him that he "no longer cared." and he asked zero to let him "rest a while longer" of course, this really didnt quite happen the way i see it, but he could be reffering to an active role. he doesnt want to fight anymore, and now, he knows he has to, but he doesnt want to, he doesnt feel ready yet.
also, what IS the Big 4 X thing? they clearly follow Copy X, but they also follow Original X. how does that work out? did they know that he was a copy in Z1? or do they simply blindly follow anyone with the name of "X"?
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which is why people think that it IS X gone maverick.
also, X doesnt try because of the afformentioned facts. it would be impossible to convince peoople who would dismiss it as X is clearly alive and well in Neo Arcadia.
plus hes given up trying. hes tired. hes tired of all that. he just let himself be swept away into the depths of cyberspace where he could finally truly rest from his destiny of endless fighting. remember Z1, eventually, he grew battle hardened, and it frightened him that he "no longer cared." and he asked zero to let him "rest a while longer" of course, this really didnt quite happen the way i see it, but he could be reffering to an active role. he doesnt want to fight anymore, and now, he knows he has to, but he doesnt want to, he doesnt feel ready yet.
Well, the "facts" as presented aren't 100% accurate, and are giving one heavy bias. But the "fact" that he can't prove his "case" is irrelevant.
You don't see any problem with the story when X is fine with people thinking he's is a Maverick? And that he, the pacifist, never tries to talk things over? Not before things get out of hand, anyway. Just because it's a "fact" that he'll fail. In your mind that part of the story is 100% rock solid?
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Well, the "facts" as presented aren't 100% accurate, and are giving one heavy bias.
What, you think the citizens of Neo Arcadia are gonna be unbiased when you try to convince them their hero's a fake?
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What, you think the citizens of Neo Arcadia are gonna be unbiased when you try to convince them their hero's a fake?
If it worked out in the story you wouldn't question it.
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theres one thing with the "pacifist statement. eventually, his pacifism was replaced with a snse of duty. similar t Zero. he does it because he has to, and doesnt question it. its the whole point behind him finding out he "no longer cared about fighting enemies"
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theres one thing with the "pacifist statement. eventually, his pacifism was replaced with a snse of duty. similar t Zero. he does it because he has to, and doesnt question it. its the whole point behind him finding out he "no longer cared about fighting enemies"
Well, there you go. You do think it's 100% solid.
I don't. I feel that particular part of the story is driven mostly by game logic and the desire to keep Copy X's identity a secret until the end of Z1 ... I feel it's something we're just not meant to think about as we're playing the game ... in a "don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain" sort of way. After all, there's little side-scrolling action in this sort of scene.
But I don't think it fits. In a story sence. The Zero series has a pretty good story, but this part always drew me right out of the game whenever X showed his shiny butt on the screen. As for X's character ... even if he was weary of fighting, no I must disagree with you, and say that it did not fit. Anyone, world weary or no, would try to clear the air if someone was murdering in their name. And elf-X did help, do it's not like he just let Copy have his way. He died helping the Resistance. He just never spoke up for them.
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
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If it worked out in the story you wouldn't question it.
If I had psychic powers, I wouldn't waste them reading the minds of people on Rockman forums. You probably shouldn't either. I'm sure you can find a better use for them.
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but rockman arguments are what make RPM go round.
they power the generators under RPM.
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If I had psychic powers, I wouldn't waste them reading the minds of people on Rockman forums. You probably shouldn't either. I'm sure you can find a better use for them.
Not like I'm wrong. If there was a scene where X convinced the world that he was the real X, you wouldn't be arguing that it was impossible.
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When did I argue that it was impossible? I just thought your plan sucked. If X managed to convince people he was the real X by acting heroically in the games I'd probably find that stupid too.
Am I not allowed to disagree with you without being a fanboy?
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Fair enough. Although that's exactly how Zero convinces the Resistees in the games.
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But Zero never "tried" to convince anybody, as he himself was rather unsure. It was his actions that spoke for him. he destroyed a Golem, and once he gained the saber, showed tremendous combat ability that only the legendary red reploid could have. and if that wasn't enough, Ciel had already more or less studied what she could on Zero enough to know that he was the real one.
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Not really much difference. Zero convinced them through his actions. X could do similar. I mean, (since we're rewriting the Z series here) I'd add in some resentment on the part of the people in Neo Arcadia. Make Copy X a much less beloved leader than we are led to believe. Add Ciel's voice and some official records regarding the "cloning" process. And, assuming there *are* people who worked with the real X in the government, add their voices to the mix too. Signas? I dunno. If that's how Inafune (or whoever) wanted it to work, it's possible for it to work. There's a lot of ways for it to work, if there's a mind to make it work for the story.
Not that I'm saying I'd want him to succeed, mind. I think it's possible, but it's not what I'd nessasarily want in the story (it's not even X's story). So it's besides the point saying he can't succeed. I'm saying that I wanted him to try. It's not like he doesn't help the resistance. He just doesn't try to talk sence into anybody.
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Id support you, but theres one small difference between Zero and X's situations.
X is dead, and cant come back for his body is the seal over Dark elf.
Zero was revived, and has the resistance and all that.
X, has nothing really, no one looked for him, no one KNEW he was even there, and he didnt try to be found. plus we dont know what capabilities his cyber elf form has exactly. (though Z3 shows he does have tremendous power nonetheless, its not quite shown how he can manifest it. Other than typical forcefeilds and the like.)
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Id support you, but theres one small difference between Zero and X's situations.
X is dead, and cant come back for his body is the seal over Dark elf.
Zero was revived, and has the resistance and all that.
X, has nothing really, no one looked for him, no one KNEW he was even there, and he didnt try to be found. plus we dont know what capabilities his cyber elf form has exactly. (though Z3 shows he does have tremendous power nonetheless, its not quite shown how he can manifest it. other than typical "energy" or forcefeilds and the like.)
X isn't quite dead until Z3. And he isn't exactly Jacob Marley rattling his chains about either. He's supposed to be powerful. He also has the Resistance. Even if he's in the "Protoman" level of involvement. Plus, he has information-gathering abilities. If we're talking about his powers, if they wanted, they could give him the ability to blow [parasitic bomb] up. Having a physical body is highly overrated.
But I'm really not about him being the star of the Zero series. I'm more nagged by the fact that he never tried to tell anyone that the emporor has no clothes. Especially the 4 generals. And, even if they were supportive of Copy in Z1, you'd think he'd try again in Z2 after Copy died. Copy X being X is the entire point of why he was in power to being with. It'd be nice if X was actually trying to let the truth be known and was simply thwarted rather than him letting it just go on.
Especially in Z1. I mean, think back. He appeared on the computer screen. Later on, he can appear as himself at will. So, why the big mystery at the beginning of the game? Ciel feels guilty about her involvement .... fine. X, however, has a pretender on the throne. I'm bothered by his lack of trying. Because the pretender is on the throne because everyone believs him to be X. And he's doing evil things. X should expose the fraud. It's the simplest solution. Yet he does not even try.
He does, however, die to save the Resistance and lends his support to them.
It's be different if he did try and failed. For all the reasons Tickle mentioned before. Of if he tried and Copy blocked him. Or if he tried and the 4 generals believed the copy was right. Or if he said that Copy was looking for him and he had to hide. He did try to talk Copy X down in Z3. That was nice. But he never actually tried to use reason other than that. And that is what bugs me. Unless there's some magical sourcebook that says one of the scenarios I plucked from the air is along the lines of what they were thinking.
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I don't think any sourcebooks speak of why X didn't try that. But don't try to rewrite the series, if you did that, there's always a way and Zero wouldn't have enemies to kill. Just Imagine how it'd go in the ZERO series scenario.:
It's the same reason why Ciel never told anyone. Initial believe that Copy-X was a proper replacement of the real X for many years. Neither X, in his new state, or Ciel, who is a young girl, can persuade the people of the world and the four guardians about their leader being a fake. After Copy-X declined, we have a situation where we have people that know of X's secret, people that doubt X, mass media propaganda, and the retirement of all that stand in the way of the utopia Neo Arcadia.
As of ZERO1, some of the Eight Judge Government doubted X's verdict of TK31, but they couldn't speak up, they couldn't doubt their hero X. For regular Repliroids knowing that X was fake would lead to a quicker death, for humans such a thought was simply unthinkable; X is the hero that to this day saves them from Irregulars. For Ciel and the resistance, they are trying to achieve that peaceful solution whilst living their lives protecting themselves from Neo Arcadia.
Add to that the following factor: the world goes into a crisis because they realized they lost their beloved X and would inevitably lead themselves to another Elf Wars by Dark Elf's release. Remember that the Four Guardians are well aware about the seal at Yggdrasil, and Harpuia also assumed power whilst hiding the defeat of X. It was Dr. Vile that revealed X's defeat to the whole world and was voted to be the new leader of Neo Arcadia on April 23.
As for believing in Cyber Elf-X. Ciel even doubted it's existence. For the Big4, who believe their X is a revival of the original, they were so heavily involved they couldn't start believing in Cyber Elf-X until after Copy-X was killed and Dr. Vile assumed power and Phantom was there to confirm the matter.
For X, whose powers are limited, having Omega breaking the boundary between the real world and cyberspace, is rather convenient.
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But I like the other censored words. >.>
Quoted for truth.
theres one thing with the "pacifist statement. eventually, his pacifism was replaced with a snse of duty. similar t Zero. he does it because he has to, and doesnt question it. its the whole point behind him finding out he "no longer cared about fighting enemies"
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that bit a slight mistranslation? Supposed to be something more like he didn't care about the enemies he was fighting against? I recall that from earlier discussions.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that bit a slight mistranslation? Supposed to be something more like he didn't care about the enemies he was fighting against? I recall that from earlier discussions.
I'm not sure what X actually said there, but I think Marshmallow mention it on a MMN topic.
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I'm gonna try something real drastic now.
... ... ...
Elipso was stupid. The set up to X's death was stupid. It was not epic, it's like beating up a guy in a coma. It was bad writing and sub-par planning. Something that Capcom is famed for outside of the Resident evil, Onimusha, and -barely- the DMC series. The set up was a joke at best, slightly above that for a plot of an anime's quality value.
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I just find it funny that anyone EXPECTS the act of stabbing an empty body to be epic. I just don't see that as the goal of the scene, at all. I take it as an (extremely loose) explanation as to how X got disembodied, end of story.
Granted, the closeup of Zero was nice. But I think the expression on his face had more to do with unleashing a power that nearly destroyed the world and all.
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Elipso was stupid. The set up to X's death was stupid. It was not epic, it's like beating up a guy in a coma. It was bad writing and sub-par planning. Something that Capcom is famed for outside of the Resident evil, Onimusha, and -barely- the DMC series. The set up was a joke at best, slightly above that for a plot of an anime's quality value.
What was wrong with it? Or do you just dislike anything that isn't suitably epic?
Actually, wait, no, forget that question. More importantly, did you just suggest that Resident Evil is well written? Because, I mean, damn. Jill sandwiches and [parasitic bomb].
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What was wrong with it? Or do you just dislike anything that isn't suitably highly enjoyable?
It's more of a "stop holding it to such a high regard" thing. I know everyone has their own opinion and standard but come on. "The villain stabs the hero in his sleep while his friend cannot do anything but watch" is not epic. I've read more epic out of the -original- story of Aladdin (No. Not the disney version.) In a wide scale, it could barely be called epic in a grand scale of what has actual story appeal.
Actually, wait, no, forget that question. More importantly, did you just suggest that Resident Evil is well written? Because, I mean, damn. Jill sandwiches and [parasitic bomb].
Well written by Capcom standards. As in, it has a straight story where fans don't need to fill the gabs in on what happened as they are explained directly about events that take place, as well as showing character development and plottwists that can actually catch someone off guard.
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well, its not the best it could have been, but its just the very image of X's body being stabbed.
yknow?
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Works a lot better when X proceeds to go nuts and Shining Fingers the enemy's face.
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It's more of a "stop holding it to such a high regard" thing. I know everyone has their own opinion and standard but come on. "The villain stabs the hero in his sleep while his friend cannot do anything but watch" is not epic. I've read more epic out of the -original- story of Aladdin (No. Not the disney version.) In a wide scale, it could barely be called epic in a grand scale of what has actual story appeal.
Hey, I don't care about whether it's epic or not, I was just wondering why you thought it was badly written and planned. Seems like a kinda harsh description.
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Works a lot better when X proceeds to go nuts and Shining Fingers the enemy's face.
It does. it really does. :P
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That reminds me; if we DO get an X9 or CM2, I fully expect to have a Shining Hand attack, even if it's as an unlockable secret or something.
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XD that would rock. it could be a melee attack.
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What's next the Rising, Burning and Shining Armors for X? [eyebrow]
But seriously, SHHHHINNNNNG FINNNNNGERRR!!!!!! :P
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How about as an unarmored Giga Attack?
Which reminds me: Nova Striking on the ground should get a Copy X-esque slide kick.
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Elipso was stupid. The set up to X's death was stupid. It was not highly enjoyable, it's like beating up a guy in a coma.
Nobody said beating a sleeping guy up was epic. Considering Elpis wholly expected X to be revived any time soon, Elpis' purpose never was to kill the empty shell of X, it was all about the release of Dark Elf. That X was to be destroyed that way was an unfortunate side effect.
What's epic here is the immense shock of such a disgraceful act to the hero X actually having succeeded despite Zero's action to stop it. That feeling of failure and that feeling of disgust that fills you. Elpis gaining immense power by the Dark Elf, driven mad by it, his words are like a twisted form of those spoken centuries ago by that girl of Zero's lost memories who died. The very fact that you hate Elpis then and there is actually the point, everything is set up to let you fight him with your emotions heightened for the kill. For all the gruesome things Copy-X and Dr. Vile did, it was very hard to feel that.
All the same, Elpis is a sad character, having witnessed the horrid nature of Neo Arcadia firsthand, he is driven by a desire to save all Repliroids and his care for Ciel, the only human that protected Repliroids. He is a person that could have been a hero but drowned himself in power after an over the top lesson in humiliation. His actions then and there are his own and all the same not his own. We are to hate him and at the same time we know we shouldn't hate him because the cause is Dark Elf.
When it comes to the vital plot element that is Dark Elf, his corruption shows the immense power of the force that nearly destroyed the world. His salvation shows us the divine good that is the Mother Elf, for she was even touched by the last words of a man we were all made to hate. Without those points clearly established, the climax of the ZERO-series would be far less amazing than it was.
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How about as an unarmored Giga Attack?
THAT'S BRILLIANT!
Somebody e-mail this to somebody high-up in Capcom!
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-post-
This makes so much sense, sir, that you gain even more respect points - a feat I thought not possible after reading so much of your insight and knowledge into the Rockman series already.
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For all the gruesome things Copy-X and Dr. Vile did, it was very hard to feel that.
I dunno, I hated Copy X (MK1) a hell of a lot more than I did Elpizo (in that awesome way you love to hate a villain, I mean). Elpizo is just a prick, but Copy X is exceedingly dangerous in terms of his influence.
His salvation shows us the divine good that is the Mother Elf, for she was even touched by the last words of a man we were all made to hate.
I wouldn't discount Mother Elf's link to the non-evil-messiah Zero, either.
Without those points clearly established, the climax of the ZERO-series would be far less amazing than it was.
I retain that any emotional impact Elpizo carried was one-upped both before (Resistance base attack, Z1) and after (Craft, Z4), rendering that aspect of his character pointless. I do respect him, however, for an entirely different reason: Under the Dark Elf's influence he gave us the only Zero-series appearance of a true Maverick. It was refreshing to just for once cut through all the political and prejudicial BS. And it did a lot for Harpuia's character to see that he was willing to do the same, as well.
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honestly, by the time Z3 rolled around, I felt sorry for Copy X. I guess it was because from the get go you knew Weil was using him. And copy X truly believed that Weil had "changed" plus, Copy X shows a bit more of his nature. He not only shws what a spoiled child he is when he doesnt get his way, but that he hates being looked down upon and made a joke out of, and he truly believes hes doing the right thing. that and the fact that hes chilishly Naive. Weil placing that trap on his body and CX inadvertently activating it kind made me feel for him...
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honestly, by the time Z3 rolled around, I felt sorry for Copy X. I guess it was because from the get go you knew Weil was using him. And copy X truly believed that Weil had "changed" plus, Copy X shows a bit more of his nature. He not only shws what a spoiled child he is when he doesnt get his way, but that he hates being looked down upon and made a joke out of, and he truly believes hes doing the right thing. that and the fact that hes chilishly Naive. Weil placing that trap on his body and CX inadvertently activating it kind made me feel for him...
I felt sorry for Elpizo, to be honest. Here's a guy who wanted desperately to be a hero, but always lacked the power. Finally, it seems like he's going to get his wish; he's commander of the resistance and about to march in and rescue reploid-kind from Neo Arcadia. Then, Zero reappears and shows him up in every way. Worse, Elpizo's big plan to wrest freedom for reploids fails miserably and he's humiliated by Harpuia, Fefnir, and Leviathan. Every dream was crushed. There wasn't anything left for him at that point but to pursue the forbidden.
Don't get me wrong, Elpizo's choice was evil and it led to greater evil, but I did pity him.
As for the Cataclysm, I've often wanted a part of it to be true. Not the part where Zero kills everyone in the Classic cast, but I think it would have been really cool for Wily to have activated Zero early, and then have Light and Wily's forces team up when Zero betrays his creator. Mega Man, Proto Man, Bass and [insert favorite Robot Master(s) here] vs Zero would be an awesome prospect. Honestly, at the very least, Bass deserves a chance to test his strength against Zero after that comment he made in PF.
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I think we all thought of the cataclysm at one point and liked the idea.
also, of course one feels ssorry for Elpis. It technically wasnt his fault. he was corrupted by his greed for power. remember, even while escaping from Neo Arcadia he showed that he wanted power. in fact, it's kind of reminicent of Gates situation in a way... he normally would never have done what he did, but when he went crazy, he was overcome by his hatred, anger and power lust.
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I never really liked the Cataclysm idea. I liked Zero for Classic Megaman's final enemy, but not for killing everyone. Never really got how Wily could build Skull Castle after Skull Castle and yet keep Zero hidden away either.
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Well, to be fair, I never really thought about the killing everyone part.
or did I? I dont remember now what it was exactly i thought. lol.
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I have always been against the theory. I had my reasons, but it just simply didn't make sense...
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BnG's version is so amusing, what with Rightot becoming RT-55J, only for RT55-J to be killed in X1 and Auto to reemerge in X3.... I'm almost surprised Gospel didn't become Velguader.
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I'm almost surprised Gospel didn't become Velguader
OMG YOU SOLVED THE MYSTERY.
also, when i first saw Sigmas Velguader Body, (yknow, Sigma's second form?) I initially thought sigma's cockpit looked more like a rat...
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It does look like a rat.
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And I always thought sigma looked similar to M.Bison/Vega but Velguarder looking like a rat makes sense.
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thats because they both have prominent jaws/chins on big square heads.
and usually have the same big evil smile.
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa215/I_am_X2007/bisonsigma.png)
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damn he has a huge chin, it looks kinda like a butt
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[tornado fang]... I knew where that quote was from... F*ck I forgot where it was from...