Why wasnt X5 the last game?

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Offline Hypershell

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Reply #25 on: May 05, 2012, 06:13:48 AM
Indeed.  While I personally love X6 to the point of it being my favorite main-series game, I love for the fact that it is different (and yes, for the fact that it corrected a great deal of what X5 tried and ultimately failed to do).  Not only would the novelty wear off if the entire series were that way, but it would surely doom the franchise, because I can recognize the difference between my personal taste and what sells.  If anyone calls X6 "bad" or "broken", I will argue with them to hell and back.  However, I acknowledge that it is not approachable.  Even though it DOES play on the key thematic strengths of the Mega Man series (open structure and growing stronger), it does so to such an extreme that it throws off the typical balance, alienating all but the most dedicated fans, and games like that make attracting a new audience virtually impossible.

There's a reason I keep calling X6 the "Lost Levels" of Mega Man X.  You know the big stink over Nintendo of America thinking that SMB2J was too difficult for the mass market?  THEY WERE RIGHT.  The only reason people like it is because they were told they can't have it.  The old Tom Sawyer fence mentality.  X6, not unlike Zelda II, doesn't have that benefit.  It is not a game that does, or should, direct the series.  It is, rather, a game that treats long-time fans to a unique challenge that they will not find elsewhere in the series.  For those who are up to the task, such an experience is irreplaceable.

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Offline Treleus

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Reply #26 on: May 31, 2012, 05:24:45 AM
I mostly agree with you, except that I truly think X6 is designed poorly, and it's partly from whence arises the absurdly addictive difficulty that's managed to attract a cult following. It is truly the "Lost Levels" of Mega Man X, and that's one of the few arguably positive distinctions I can bring myself to acknowledge about it. As for why it's designed badly, I'll give a few examples, but before I do, I'll note that while the Nightmare System is ultimately one of the biggest reason people hate this game, it had potential to be something much better and much less stupid. It was a decent idea on paper. No reason it couldn't have succeeded at least as well as the similar mechanic in X1, so I won't focus on it right now. Here are my problems with four of the stages, for starters, (assuming I'm playing as either armored X or Zero) along with any good things I have to say about them:

[spoiler]Rainy Turtloid: Too linear and repetitive. Reminds me of X3, but much worse. Also, those spiked corridors you need pinpoint accuracy to get across? That's cheap, and a waste of my time. There's really no fun I get from learning that elite skill, and the payoff just isn't worth it. Rainy Turtloid seems to be channeling Aqua Man by way of Astro Man judging by his signature Meteor Rain attack, and he sure likes to stand around and give me ample time to ruin the gems on his back. *Shrugs* I guess he's all right, but I haven't got much else to say about him.

Blaze Heatnix: The miniboss. The rest of the stage has hope, I'll definitely give it that, but spamming the miniboss just wasted any possible fun that stage could've had. This was truly a stage that suffered the crime of rush development. As for Heatnix, the worst I can say about him is his name. Why didn't they just call him "Blaze Phoenix"? Making the surname of these Maverick's some stupid mashed-up non-word just makes them sound dumb. The fight's not bad

Metal Shark Player: I actually sorta enjoyed this stage except for it's slight case of cheap enemy placement. First case happens near the end of the first crusher where you have to duck in the ditch in order to not die. Once you're ducked and the compactor is down, letting go the down button shouldn't kill you, but whatever; once you're ducked, this Nightmare [dark hold] comes from the end of the screen and 9/10 will hit you, forcing you to stand up and meet instant death. Have fun repeating that segment 2 or 3 times. Then there's the other segment at the end of the next crusher segment, where you have a long stretch of instant death zone with a Nightmare at the end of it. Also that block puzzle at the end can [tornado fang] off. It's boring. Metal Shark Player, on the other hand, is not boring. Just slightly plagiaristic. I know it's supposed to be a cool nod to classic bosses, but when it comes to new games, I really don't care much for recycled content. That's part of the reason why I don't remember much of the Xtreme games and part of the reason why I think X5 is terrible.

Shield Sheldon: Shortest level of all time! Wow. Unless you take the secret level path, which you can't know beforehand, so if you accidentally go into the iconic boss corridor first, you can't turn back. Lovely. Also those lasers in the secret path are just another game of stop and go, but with less of the urgency of Metal Shark's stage and the annoyance of those stupid Nightmare bugs. The false wall was a nice touch though. Sheldon will also be getting off easy, since I don't really consider him a bad boss at all. Just a badly named one.

Infinity Mijinion: Cool music, cool giant robot, and even cool flying ships that almost convince me I'm playing a sidescrolling shooter. I think I would've actually enjoyed this stage, though, had it not been for the Nightmares (but then I'll safely say the same thing about every single stage of this game). Other than that, it still suffers from repetitive level design. From start to finish. Infinity Mijinion suffers from the same problem, but he's been cleverly designed to manipulate that flaw into a diabolical strength: layering himself upon himself at random. This causes him to be about as wildly exhilarating a challenge as the rest of his stage, but it's less a challenge I can learn to love and more one that just requires desperation and getting it over with quickly. It's hard, but that doesn't make it great.

Blizzard Wolfang: Pretty good use of secret areas and a slippery upslope, but a fast enough player can just bypass the avalanches and witness their stationary spawning point several times. That being said, not a bad obstacle. This stage only suffers from a single case of repetition--the ice block pits--but placing a spike pit in the very center of the second pit was just cheap. No way you could see that in time to avoid it once you take the plunge, and I'd consider it pretty basic player instinct to figure that the center of the floor is safest while the edges are booby-trapped. That's all moot, though, if I actually could've seen the spike pit for a little more than a split second. Wolfang's not a bad fight. He's got a fair amount of tricks up his sleeve.

Ground Scaravich: A stage that changes every time you play it? Sure! That's pretty cool. If it weren't for that one stage module that doesn't allow you to progress without an air dash or a jump upgrade/hyperdash chip, or the copious amount of Nightmares and overly blocky design, it might be my favorite stage of the game. Oh, but that screeching soundtrack has got to go. The fight with Ground Scaravich displays the best use of zip lines yet, although that doesn't endear me much to them.

Commander Yammark: It's a nice stage, but kinda dim and boring. Those slow snail pads kill the flow one you get to the otherwise impassable spike labyrinth, followed by the dickish leap-of-faith segment right after it, and then comes the big [tornado fang] off gauntlet of giant Mantises with homing sickles. Challenging, I guess, but why not just have them die after the first explosion? There's enough of them to catch you off-guard with off-screen homing sickles without them coming back. Why are they immortal? What makes them so special that not even the Nightmares can match their malevolent unwillingness to obey the laws of nature? Not even Sigma regenerates that fast. He needs help.[/spoiler]

The best compliment I can give to X6 is that it probably had the most interesting boss fight ever concocted: Gate. What a brilliant fight. You can't damage him just by shooting him. You have to use his weapons against him. It's a truly sublime variation on the theme of acquiring and using boss weapons, but more than that, the fight is all about strategy. You can't bull-rush him. You have to be meticulous, and you have to make him go where you want, not the other way around. Unfortunately, I believe the game that is X6 failed Gate, Nightmare System and everything.

Is X6 better than X5? Well, it's definitely more special and memorable than X5, and where X5 fell short, it did improve. However, I might go so far as to say the stages in X5 were better designed. Yeah, the parts system sucked, the whole catastrophe mechanic with the Eurasia thing sucked (but like the NS, that also had potential to be good), the ending was dumb, and I personally think rehashing the X2 fight and ripping off Gamma at the end sucked save for the fancy new tune from the former, but overall it felt more playable. Albeit by a small margin, because the armors also don't deliver that well. Even though the Gaia Armor is like if X went to Tony Stark and asked to borrow his Hulkbuster, he's just too slow. I do like it better than the Shadow Armor, but that's me. I can see how the Shadow Armor succeeds where the Gaia Armor fails, but then the Shadow Armor has the piddly little energy shurikens where the big G has projectile-annihilating shots you can fire in quick succession. Now that's pretty satisfying.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #27 on: June 01, 2012, 12:19:16 AM
Shadow Armor can annihilate projectiles in rapid succession if you equip it with the Ultimate Buster.  I do that ALL THE TIME against Nightmare Zero.

The same is true to a lesser extent of Blade's charged saber, but it's not as fast, and since Blade's charged buster blows so hard, yeah...

I'm especially fond of the High Max battles, believe it or not.  The notion of using your special and default weaponry for combination attacks is something that hasn't really been done otherwise.  He's definitely the most effective implementation of growing stronger to conquer a previously invulnerable enemy that the X-series has seen (in X1 you never really defeat Vile on your own, which kinda dampens your excitement at how badass you've become).

[spoiler]I don't necessarily have anything to add on every level, but still here we go:

Rainy Turtloid: Spiked segments are easily overcome by barrier abuse, and the stage includes the possibility of luring Bat Bones to the appropriate spots for the capsule, if you're quick enough.  Turtloid himself gives me far more trouble than his stage if I'm playing as Falcon X.  He's complete Z-Buster bait as Zero, though.

Blaze Heatnix: Minibosses are hell when unarmored, but since unarmored X exists only to prove your manliness, it's a minimal issue.  Zero slaughters them with Rekkoha, Shadow's charged saber is deadly as ever, and any other X armor can wreck it with a charged Metal Anchor.  It's evil as hell if you don't know what you're up against, though, that much is true.

Metal Shark Player: Seems I'm the polar opposite of you.  Love his ability, seeing SNES bosses redone in PS1 style and all, but positively HATE his stage.  Tip-toeing under the threat of instant death is not my preferred play style; I'll take enemy mobs any day.  I will say this, though, the big pit in the alternate route is one of those frequently overestimated hazards that cause people to ragequit the game prematurely.  It's a good test of how willing one is to actually think about the obstacles put in front of them; I wonder how many people figured out that you can clear it with Ice Burst alone?

Blizzard Wolfang: Spikes in the pit have NOTHING on Splash Woman's level in MM9.  In the X-series you have air-dashing on your side.

Ground Scaravich: No point in this level requires an upgrade to pass.  Or at least, by default, none of them do.  The problem is that it's not just the stage segment selection that is random; it's also block placement in the segments themselves.  There is an unlikely chance that random block placement may screw you over.  But that's why the "speculated" Nightmare System is a far worse idea than the "real" Nightmare System could ever be.
And yes, the music is evil.[/spoiler]

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Offline Gaia

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Reply #28 on: June 01, 2012, 12:39:23 AM
I had no trouble with the minibosses, since with X you can figure out a good distance from them (say, five pixels from their hitbox, dash away in the earlier fights and just pelt them, since they don't really do much and there aren't that many enemy mobs) until the last one in which you have to try not to get hit above lava.

Metal Shark Player I can agree with, [tornado fang] that stage. If it's gonna be used as a part of a torture chamber scenario, fine by me. But learning that Blizzard Wolfang's weapon works great on this stage makes me wonder why I didin't know about it sooner..

I did it the long way for the powerups in Turtloid's stage. For the boss himself, not easy going for a no-hit run.

..How evil IS Ground Scaravich's music, one may ask? I perfer Yammark's stage theme, tbh.

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Offline Karasai♪

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Reply #29 on: June 01, 2012, 12:46:45 AM
Since I've recently beaten X6 "again" (and the other X games) on MMXC, I think that Gate's battle is hell.

complete hell. I died around 20 times, not lying.

My problems with the boss:

He can only hurt himself. Sure, this is a cool and unique idea, but there's some issues following...
The balls can hurt you too when they explode
There are like 5 platforms to step on, all are small and are close together
There's a pit below you
Gate's Dimension Slash takes a lot of health from you
The Dimension Slash can destroy platforms (the most is 2)
There's a pit below you
The platforms can kill you when they reappear

Oh, I did this with the Blade Armor btw, with Ultimate Buster equiped



Offline Flame

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Reply #30 on: June 01, 2012, 12:59:37 AM
Blade isnt the BEST armor to have to be honest, because of how it's buster works, but if you had Ultimate buster and Sub tanks you really shouldnt have had too much issue. Just be patient.

I find his most dangerous attack is actually the blue energy ball I think it was- which sucks you in towards it, which with the pit, can be dangerous. other than that i never had too much trouble with Gate.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Karasai♪

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Reply #31 on: June 01, 2012, 04:30:01 AM
Yeah I honestly dont like Blade Armor, I just used it because of the "leap of faith" section



Offline Treleus

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Reply #32 on: June 01, 2012, 04:30:51 AM
The orb I hated the most was the red one. Not only does it slow your movement down, but it also appears to slow your input as well. So if I want to jump or wall-kick, and Gate hits me, chances are I'll go careening into the pit because no matter how furiously I mash the buttons, nothing registers in time and I die. I think that could've used more work.

High Max I think is great in concept, but mediocre in execution thanks to shoddy hit boxes and repetition ad nauseam. It's also not clear why or how you get stronger outside of collecting new boss powers, it just happens, so my first instinct wouldn't be to shoot him with a charged shot to stun him, but rather just go straight for a boss power. That doesn't work, so I shoot him for the hell of it and notice it stuns him. Shooting him again doesn't do anything, so I have to make the leap to hit him NOW with a boss power, he falls down, and a tiny sliver of his health goes away--that is if I don't rage about the silliness about it and die, get an armor, come back and realize nothing has changed, and then ragequit until someone tells me what to do, like I'm playing an adventure game with obtuse logic.

After that, it's just formulaic repetition. Once you figure out the nonsensical method of actually damaging him, it's just a merciless rinse and repeat the instant his toe appears at the top of the screen and until he goes into his desperation mode. The situation in X1 at least had the grace of better storytelling and scene direction as well as gameplay to communicate the feeling of becoming stronger. Yeah, you couldn't really damage Vile in his new Ride Armor, but then neither could Zero, so you were both [tornado fang]'d until somebody did something drastic. Then you waste Vile and go on to waste everything else all the way up to Sigma. If I could change anything about that scene, it's to have X do visible damage to Vile if not wreck him. If he does the latter, though, then no heroic Zero sacrifice.

Huh. It would've made more sense if X did wreck Vile at least better than Zero did, but if he did, then Zero might not have decided to kamikaze on his mech. Interesting dilemma.



Offline Flame

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Reply #33 on: June 01, 2012, 06:11:09 AM
Yeah I honestly dont like Blade Armor, I just used it because of the "leap of faith" section

Protip: You dont need the air dash to pass that section, just the... Hyper Dash was it..? Hyper Dash or Jumper. dont remember which now.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline OBJECTION MAN

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Reply #34 on: June 01, 2012, 02:05:04 PM
Want to fix X6? Start by not allowing the player to stand up if they have to be ducking to not get killed by the instant death ceiling. Especially when gotten hit by a cheaply placed nightmare shooting auto aim orbs at you. Hell, it should make you auto duck as is, instead of just KILLING YOU OUTRIGHT.

If classic Megaman doesn't die when he is hit while sliding through a 1 block gap, X and Zero shouldn't for simply ducking in a 1 block gap. It is purely lazy programming.


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Offline Hypershell

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Reply #35 on: June 02, 2012, 04:14:30 AM
Protip: You dont need the air dash to pass that section, just the... Hyper Dash was it..? Hyper Dash or Jumper. dont remember which now.
Hyper Dash alone can make it, but having both it and Jumper makes it much easier.

You could also try to physics-exploit your way through with Speedster and Ultimate Buster, if you're feeling completely insane.

I don't know why the general gaming public can't figure out how to get the Shadow Armor through that stage.  I guess because X5 taught them that Parts are supposed to be useless.  It's one thing to be pissed because you got stuck the first time you tried it; it's quite another to never bother attempting a work-around.

Want to fix X6? Start by not allowing the player to stand up if they have to be ducking to not get killed by the instant death ceiling. Especially when gotten hit by a cheaply placed nightmare shooting auto aim orbs at you. Hell, it should make you auto duck as is, instead of just KILLING YOU OUTRIGHT.

If classic Megaman doesn't die when he is hit while sliding through a 1 block gap, X and Zero shouldn't for simply ducking in a 1 block gap. It is purely lazy programming.
Perhaps if they fixed that I might find Metal Shark Player's level less annoying.

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