The Official Pokemon Heart Gold & Soul Silver Discussion Thread

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Offline Keno

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Reply #1075 on: November 06, 2009, 06:58:21 PM
While I can agree that grinding can get tedious, you have to remember that just flat out using rare candies on a Pokemon is actually worse than grinding for a particular stat. Pokemon is the sort of game that you get back the effort that you put in to it. I'd rather spend that hour slaying Zubats or whatever to bring my Pokemon to the top of its game then let it suffer stat wise because it's faster.
I thought that Rare Candies worked the same as leveling in 1st gen.

Uh, I think he means the prize ribbons and not necessarily the ribbons that are worn in hair. Prize ribbons are unisex, and don't necessarily mean that they're for women.
I know. It's a gameplay aspect added for people that wanted to do something other than battle. Women.

Also, if you really wanted to know how EVs and IVs work, it's not hard to just Google it. I'm sure there's a few hundred websites that detail just how these numbers work and how you can manipulate them.
I know how they work, just not specifically.

Understanding what's going on doesn't ruin the game, it makes it better. If I wanted a game where I couldn't even tell why the winner came first I'd just play Mario Party or something.
Mario Party isn't like everybody makes it seem. You can totally manipulate the dice rolls, & a lot of planning & point of no returns come into play.

I still prefer pre-EVs. I'm playing Crystal right now. How do they work in that?



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #1076 on: November 06, 2009, 09:05:59 PM
So. About those egg moves.

Yeah.
Egg moves are not a prerequisite on every Pokemon.  Sometimes they are useful and sometimes they are not.  Some Pokemon have none at all.

And besides, breeding is usually available relatively early in the game.  It's not like you have to beat the Elite Four before you can get an egg.

I'm not saying your entire Elite Four team should be tournament material.  I'm saying that *A* Pokemon you played the game with should be viable.

What about your starter?  If you intend to use a starter evolution for multiplayer, you basically have to breed a new one, even if you don't intend to use a single egg move.  What is the point of that?  If you're crazy enough to breed for IVs, fine.  Some people will just find something remotely beneficial with a proper Nature and leave it at that, which is what you pretty much have to do if you intend to battle with a non-breedable Pokemon anyway.

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It's actually worse than that. You only get 127 bonus points to distribute among your attributes, so if you accidentally kill something that gives you EVs in the wrong stat, you permanently screw yourself. And the game doesn't [tornado fang]ing tell you ANYTHING about this.
This is exactly my point.  You're pretty much guaranteed to get the wrong EVs in normal gameplay, therefore, Pokemon used in gameplay are worthless unless you berry the hell out of them.  It shouldn't be that way.  If you were negligent in IVs/Nature, fine, that's your own problem.  But EVs are nearly impossible to work around.

But that gets me started on how shitty I think the lack of legacy in 3rd generation was. Why was it so hard to handle it that time around?
Because of the change in how the "randomization" as you put it was handled.

In 1st and 2nd gen, EVs did not exist as they do currently, instead there was a stat-experience system that gained by the base stats of the Pokemon you defeated in battle.  All had their individual caps, of course, but there was no total cap, and you always gained SOMETHING in every stat from every battle.  With EVs, an individual stat caps at 255 but your total caps at only 510 (allowing you to max only two stats), and a Pokemon defeated will usually only give you EVs in a single stat; rarely 2 or 3, never more than that.

Also, the IV (Individual Value, this is randomization irrelevant of battle experience; or why two wild Pokemon of the same species and level may have slightly different stats) range was expanded.  1st and 2nd gen ranged from 0 to 15.  In 3rd gen on, it's 0 to 31.

Personally, I like the EV system since it at least gives non legendary pokes a chance at taking on the Legendaries without struggling like they should. Plus it adds a layer of complexity that the game normally wouldn't have before.

It's really fun to take out an all legendary with an EV trained team. The look on the other guy's face is priceless.
The EV system has nothing to do with that, as legendaries can be EV-trained just the same.  That and numerous legends were weakened in the shift from 1st to 2nd generation.  Specifically, all three of the birds and Mewtwo.  Everyone thinks Arceus is so big and bad, but the truth is Mewtwo would still surpass him if his Special Defense hadn't been slaughtered.  And that's ignoring R/B/Y Amnesia physics.  There is nothing more evil than a first-gen Mewtwo.

Their happiness goes up when I give them vitamins!
Yeah, but vitamins won't get you more than 100 EVs, so you're actually helping Keno's point there.  Whatever it is.  >.>

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x2 for pokerus
I hate Pokerus.  I have better things to do than harvest stealthy-but-stupid single celled organisms amongst my Pokemon.

Understanding what's going on doesn't ruin the game, it makes it better.
Do yourself a favor and don't read too many guides about X5.

I thought that Rare Candies worked the same as leveling in 1st gen.
Nope.  In 1st and 2nd gen you have stat experience, which basically plays the role that EVs do in 3rd gen and on.  Except the stat experience lacked a total cap.

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I'm playing Crystal right now. How do they work in that?
Each stat has its own "invisible" experience.  Whenever one of your Pokemon defeats an opponent, all of its stats gain experience equal to the base stats (that is, the strengths of a Pokemon's species) of the opponent.  Each stat can gain a maximum of 65,535 experience.  Vitamins can get you up to 25,600 experience in a single stat.

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Offline Tickle Buffalo

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Reply #1077 on: November 07, 2009, 12:48:54 AM
Ultimate solution to all EV problems:

Allow the player to put caps on individual stats. Allow the player to lower EVs as they wish, without having to use some stupid item that isn't even explained properly.
Oh and explaining what EVs actually are would be good too.

There we go problem's solved. With no grind city, even.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #1078 on: November 07, 2009, 01:55:30 AM
You really need to bear in mind that Power **** items, Macho Brace, and Pokerus never existed in combination with stat experience.  If they did, you could alleviate grinding every bit as easily.  More so, in fact, because you wouldn't have to be picky about your opponents.  Macho Brace would be pretty damn tanked up in such a system, doubling every stat gain.

Manually capping all stats would be a bit too "unnatural" to really fit with the feel of games.  But some kind of daycare/gym/tutor might help.  Hell, even making the stat-reducing berries buyable would help.

Another problem with the current EV system, though, is the inability to re-adjust.  Vitamins cannot take you beyond 100 points out of 255, far from ideal.  Beyond that, you need battle experience.  Which means if you experiment too many times after reaching Level 50, you must rely on auto-level matches, thus disqualifying you from certain tournaments (although WHY they enforce such a bone-headed rule is beyond me).  Also, EVs tie to experience gain, effectively punishing you for having an actual Level 100 Pokemon, since at that point they will no longer collect EVs from battle.

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Offline Tickle Buffalo

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Reply #1079 on: November 07, 2009, 02:20:19 AM
They could make it so you could get every stat up to 255 and just let you pick which EVs are active. It'd make switching spreads pretty easy, I guess.

It's certainly better than just making grinding every stat mandatory for no actual reward. Be like forcing you to level up to 100 before you could play or something. That [parasitic bomb] was not fun.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #1080 on: November 07, 2009, 05:15:34 AM
Once again, I don't think that kind of raw number manipulation is really fitting for in-game.  It's really more Smogon material.  But then, I could say the same thing about the 510 cap itself.

Stat experience/EVs, even if no total limit was implemented, still has a purpose in-game as it gives you an edge over similarly and over-leveled opponents.  If grinding is an issue they can always simply lower the limit.

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Offline Tickle Buffalo

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Reply #1081 on: November 07, 2009, 06:38:13 AM
I don't think evil stealth mechanics bullshit is really fitting for in-game, but apparently the developers disagree with me. :(



Offline Legendary

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Reply #1082 on: November 07, 2009, 09:36:55 PM
I like EVs. They lemme train multiple PokeMon at once instead of having to spend weeks trying to get my ideal team up to level 100.

I think it'd be better if you could find a way to not have to grind levels so severely, still being able to use your in-game team competitively, but also having the freedom to switch between random PokeMon you may want to try out just for quirkiness. It would suck that you'd be stuck playing with the same 6 PokeMon the whole game and for every battle since, because when you decide you get tired of that team you then have to sit down and beat levels into your replacement PokeMon for a good while.

...They should really just have an item that just clears all gained EVs, and maybe an alternate Day-Care where you could leave your PokeMon in there, set the amount of EVs you want, then just go off doing something else.



Offline STM

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Reply #1083 on: November 08, 2009, 12:53:05 AM
"set the amount of EVs you want, then just go off doing something else. "

If you're going to be that easy, you may as well just hack a Pokemon to have set EVs.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #1084 on: November 08, 2009, 04:48:39 PM
I like EVs. They lemme train multiple PokeMon at once instead of having to spend weeks trying to get my ideal team up to level 100.
You realize EVs are irrelevant to level?

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Offline Dr. Wily II

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Reply #1085 on: November 12, 2009, 04:40:54 PM
Anyways...
For those of you that have imported your HGSS, remember that Mew is now available over the Wi-Fi, until 23rd November.


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Offline Klavier Gavin

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Reply #1086 on: November 12, 2009, 04:41:57 PM
Mew is now available over the Wi-Fi, until 23rd November.

*goes off to download*



Offline Dr. Wily II

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Reply #1087 on: November 12, 2009, 04:48:13 PM
Take pics! -_-


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Offline VixyNyan

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Reply #1088 on: November 16, 2009, 08:49:49 PM

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Offline Waifu

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Reply #1089 on: November 17, 2009, 02:45:22 AM
I wish I had a DS and it will be too late for me until I get one, at least there is gameshark. [/pathetic]



Offline Dr. Wily II

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Reply #1090 on: November 17, 2009, 06:47:55 AM
Yay, I got Mew, two! >U<


*o*
Also, wow at lvl52 Eevee Nyan<3


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Offline Hypershell

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Reply #1091 on: November 17, 2009, 11:41:49 PM
I wish I had a DS and it will be too late for me until I get one, at least there is gameshark.[/pathetic]
As long as you're going to cheat, may as well make it convincing.  There's always the PKM Database for latecomers.

I avoid it when possible due to my particular save ripper (REIN) hating Pokemon.

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Offline Solar

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Reply #1092 on: November 17, 2009, 11:58:09 PM
Hey Shell, do you mind trading Arceus for a while? :(


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Offline Hypershell

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Reply #1093 on: November 17, 2009, 11:59:19 PM
Later, maybe, but not for now.  Mine's staying with me until I get HG/SS.  Or until I feel like putting up with REIN long enough to clone it.  One of those two.

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Offline Solar

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Reply #1094 on: November 18, 2009, 12:01:32 AM
By "for a while" I meant that I'll give it back >_>

Hell, I can give you the event Mew if you want.


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Offline Dr. Wily II

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Reply #1095 on: November 18, 2009, 02:58:25 AM
*Notes down Hypershell for spare Arceus to get later*


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Offline Hypershell

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Reply #1096 on: November 18, 2009, 03:28:49 AM
By "for a while" I meant that I'll give it back >_>
Yeah, I know, that's just me being paranoid.  The last time I tried to trade with someone, getting a stable connection was a nightmare.

Keep pestering me, I'll cave sooner or later. :P

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Offline Solar

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Reply #1097 on: November 18, 2009, 03:34:26 AM
If I told you I think I may be able to duplicate it without cloning?


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Reply #1098 on: November 18, 2009, 03:37:13 AM
... Taiyo, save one for me... Please? O^O


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Offline Hypershell

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Reply #1099 on: November 18, 2009, 03:38:29 AM
If I told you I think I may be able to duplicate it without cloning?
Not in the least necessary.  If you want to lure me, get a Vulpix/Ninetails for my Pokedex so that I can GTS one.

Either way, I doubt I'll be ready to trade before Saturday.

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