Input on an all-inclusive Endless Stage application...

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Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #50 on: February 10, 2009, 11:29:48 PM
Okay, I don't think I've played any game where it did x5 damage.  I remember it was x2 in Mega Man 7, and I think it was x4 in the Game Gear one, and the Game Boy Mega Man 5 even made the medium charge level do x2 instead of x1, but I haven't seen a x5 yet.  Which game were you checking last?

And hey, x3 is still not that bad.  It helps when bosses have long invincibility times after they get hit, or when you just have some free seconds before the next enemies show up.



Offline Canticleer Blues

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Reply #51 on: February 11, 2009, 03:18:29 AM
Yes, a Mega Buster that's 5x the power of a regular shot is a little overpowered.  With that much power, the average Robot Master would go down in five hits!  X(



Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #52 on: February 11, 2009, 05:04:23 AM
Both. Hadn't thought about that third one, though... (isn't that on the WindMan stage?) :|
The birdie blockers?  Those are on the fourth Mr. X stage.  I don't think I even knew you could move them until Navi Mode.

I have now added Rockman 3 data to the file.  People who are very bored should either check my work for mistakes, or make a table for one of the very newest games because I probably won't get to it for a long time.  Here are some notes:

I decided to put all destructible projectiles on their own lines, so you would know what would destroy them, but I also put their "body damage" value in as the "shot damage" for the character that produced it.  So those values are duplicated.

There were a few bosses that could do more than one amount of damage through bodily contact, so I finally split the "body damage" column too.  This includes NeedleMan's and ShadowMan's special moves as well as the different parts of Wily's machine.  Now that 6-or-12 business with HardMan is that he seems to be able to cut your invulnerability time short sometimes, like when you get stuck inside him, so I thought I would note he got a double hit.  The same thing happened with the Flash Man clone just as he was doing the flash, although I had to pull a weird move to get that to happen so it might not be all that common.

I regret that I didn't note which enemies don't attract the Magnet Missile, but then I figured this wasn't so much about how things move as about what happens when something actually gets hit.  Still, I did mention that if you fire Hard Knuckle while Nut & Bolt are in the process of joining, the fist flies upward as if you were holding Up, even if you aren't.  What's the deal with that?

I did try to note when Top Spin used 0 or 2 units of energy per hit rather than the usual 1, but I may have missed a few because I wasn't thinking about it the whole time.  Of course there is that trick where you spin into an enemy right after taking a hit, giving you a hit on the enemy every frame and draining your energy very fast, but this only really matters on fortress bosses that take damage from Top Spin.  I noticed that whether the Top Spin uses 0, 1, or 2 units does matter during that trick, as if you watch frame by frame, a character that makes you use 2 units during a regular hit will make your meter count down by 2 each frame when you do the invincibility spin.

It turns out the Junk Blocks the Junk Golem throws are definitely NOT the same as the Junk Blocks that fall out of the chutes.  In fact, although it has 8 HP, the block seems to have the exact same weaknesses as the Golem; it does appear to be the only stage enemy that takes damage from Top Spin but isn't a one-hit kill from it.  It was very difficult to figure out the block's weaknesses, though, because of how fast it moves.  I had to use frame advance on an emulated copy to be able to finish it off in time.  One funny thing I discovered by doing this was that if you use Rush Jet to destroy the block before it reaches the Junk Golem, the blocks stop coming, and Junk Golem can do nothing but stand there looking at you and hoping you bump into him.

There is a strange inconsistency with SnakeMan's snakes, and I don't think I've got it completely figured out yet.  Usually those snakes only take one hit to defeat and can be hit by the Rock Buster, Needle Cannon, or Top Spin.  But in some battles, the first snake takes 3 shots to defeat, and Top Spin doesn't work on it even if I already shot it twice.  On the savestate I was testing the most, I believe the first snake of two was the 3-shot snake, and the one just behind it was the 1-shot snake.  Furthermore, until I destroyed that 3-shot snake, SnakeMan would keep making 3-shot snakes, at least for the snake in the lead.  I think there was a time when I started the battle and both snakes were 3-shot snakes, and there might have even been a 2-shot snake in there somewhere, but it's hard to keep track of because those things are really hard to hit.  I guess it's not a big deal, but some hacker might be interested in finding out where the difference in the snakes' power comes from.  (Come to think of it, how rare is it for a Robot Master to make things you can destroy?)

So, it did turn out that the shots you fire while using Rush are exactly the same as the regular ones; you just can't have as many shots on screen is all.  Needle Cannon is also exactly the same except on bosses, just like uncharged Atomic Fire and some of the Dr. Wily's Revenge weapons.



Offline BaconMan

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Reply #53 on: February 20, 2009, 07:44:46 PM
Hmm... it appears there may be yet another programming option. Or at least, a good fallback for the project, assuming my GM engine doesn't do the trick. Not sure how I'd do with MMF2, however.

Posted on: February 18, 2009, 07:14:11 AM
As far as variable difficulty goes, consider that players like THIS will also be playing. A player of this caliber is exactly what "Mega Mode" is being designed for. (Hence, the 1:00-per-segment timer.) Check the related videos too, this guy is INSANE!

 :O



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #54 on: February 21, 2009, 12:05:52 AM
why charge a shot for much longer than it takes to just fire 3 P-Shooters?
If only Inticreates had asked themselves that when making MM9...  *sighs*

Yes, a Mega Buster that's 5x the power of a regular shot is a little overpowered.  With that much power, the average Robot Master would go down in five hits!  X(
Try 7.

I've not checked Classic-series charged shot damage.  But in the X-series a charged shot is 4x normal on stage enemies, with a different formula applying to their effects on bosses. (2hp off a boss; X2's double-charge breaks the damage barrier for an extra 1hp per spiral shot segment).

Zero/ZX typically do 6x, Grey does 5x and Ashe does 4x.

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Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #55 on: February 21, 2009, 10:40:37 PM
Ah, I must not have played enough Zero or ZX then.  And of course it started getting complicated with X.

Yes, a Mega Buster that's 5x the power of a regular shot is a little overpowered.  With that much power, the average Robot Master would go down in five hits!  X(
Try 7.
Wait.  Let's do the math.  Classic energy bars are 28 notches, right?

28 -> 23 -> 18 -> 13 -> 8 -> 3 -> 0  (Or, 5 * 5 = 25 < 28, 6 * 5 = 30 > 28)

So, six hits.  Consider that Mega Man 4 through 6 always made the weakness weapons take away 4 notches, finishing in 7 hits.  Your starting weapon shouldn't be better than the weakness.



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #56 on: February 22, 2009, 11:09:48 AM
Feel compelled to point out that RM7FC .... and, quite likely, every single other NES game's energy is actually 280 pts, with one point being worth 10.  I remember hearing that it's 280 and not simply 28.

I could be wrong.  Not about 7FC, though (had to figure this out to cheat).  I'm not a big tech-head for this sort of thing.


Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #57 on: February 23, 2009, 12:12:18 AM
Oh, that reminds me, I haven't written anything about the Rockman World 2 data I uploaded.  Well, the main thing there was, the enemies kept doing different amounts of damage, like they'd alternate between doing 2 and 3 units.  It was pretty obvious that they were doing fractional damage, but I couldn't figure out the exact values the normal way, so I used VisualBoyAdvance's RAM watch to find all the HP values.  It turns out that RockMan and all the Robot Masters have their energy units multiplied by 8 in that game, not 10.  So the total energy is 19 * 8 = 152, or 98 in hex view.  Most enemies were doing damage in multiples of 10 (hex A) though; this meant that they were taking off 1.25, 2.5, 3.75, or 5 for the most part.  Some of the enemies in the second half of the game did 1.875 (15 in memory or hex F), however.  The bosses were simpler: They all do 4 units by contact, and 1 or 2 units from projectiles, except for one attack of Wily's that did 3.

So all the stage bosses and weapons amounts were multiplied by 8 like that, but Quint and the minor enemies only counted 1 per HP in the memory area I looked at.  This made it simpler to discover how much damage the Master Weapons did, although RockMan's and the stage enemies' values only appeared after they had been depleted once, so the only way you'd see 98 for his HP was to get a refill.  And it turned out the refills were inconsistent.  They round off to the next whole unit (of 8), it seems, so a small capsule might refill 2 1/2 or 3, and a large capsule might refill 8 1/2 or 9.

So, yeah, that's why I agreed that the NES games probably multiply their energy values too, but there haven't been enough strange fractions to matter to me yet.  (I'm betting those 1.7s I logged were really 1.75s.)  Maybe I'll do another pass over the games to check their memory too, where I might also check the Normal mode damages in MegaMan 2.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #58 on: February 23, 2009, 07:27:05 AM
Classic energy bars are 28 notches, right?
Threw me off.  I thought it was 32 (the notches on Zero, ZX, and SNES X boss bars).

I guess that's the reason SNES X weapon bars are two heart tanks lower than the life bars.
Full life minus 4 notches = 28.

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Offline BaconMan

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Reply #59 on: February 23, 2009, 03:01:41 PM
Ah, I must not have played enough Zero or ZX then.  And of course it started getting complicated with X.
Try 7.

Wait.  Let's do the math.  Classic energy bars are 28 notches, right?

28 -> 23 -> 18 -> 13 -> 8 -> 3 -> 0  (Or, 5 * 5 = 25 < 28, 6 * 5 = 30 > 28)

So, six hits.  Consider that Mega Man 4 through 6 always made the weakness weapons take away 4 notches, finishing in 7 hits.  Your starting weapon shouldn't be better than the weakness.

On the contrary... Mega Buster has 3 sec. of windup, whereas (most) master weapons don't. (That's also another instance of how 4-6 "broke" the MegaMans, btw.) I can see 4x being fair, maybe more practical than 5x. But I suppose the defining point is: How many charge shots do you think is fair to wipe out a Robot Master? It's debatable between 6 and 7 shots, they both sound/feel about right, and this can always vary a bit, upon how vulnerable a RM is (IE: an "extra" 1 damage for those with high invincible times, or hard-to-hit manuevers).

I could see 5-6 for using a weakness being fair, too. Though MM1-3 had it do something like 8 bars of damage apiece (perfect examples, Needle and Magnet Man going down in 4 hits). And it seems like 7/8/Bass made it do closer to 3-4. Those took FOREVER (see, if you were to nail one of THOSE 4 times, reactions and all, THAT would be a considerably less "boring" fight). Even 5 hits would still be fair.

So far, I've only used a 2x multiplier, mostly for sake of inconsistent damage rates to different enemies; and then to MM & Co. to keep their life/damage rate consistent with other RM's.


Estimated damage summary (for general gameplay):

Quote
2 = pts. per shot, or per turbo-shot
 3 = pts. per mid-charge shot, spread shot
 4 = pts. per (quick/rapid master weapons); ones that kill 2-shot enemies, where mid-charge shots don't
 6 = pts. per (most other master weapons) and piercing laser shot; 10 = win vs. RM
 8 = pts. per full-charge shot, Mega Fist, or (heavy-damage master weapons); 7 = win vs. RM
10 = pts. if master weapon is a weakness, and NOT in the 15 pts. category; 6 = win vs. RM
(or 12; 5 = win instead)?
15 = pts. per explosion, Super Arm/Deep Digger attack, or collision attack (Break Dash, Charge Kick, etc.); 4 = win vs. RM

56 = total health (28 x 2)

 2 = pts. damage for basic shots
 4 = pts. damage for most direct enemy collisions
 7 = pts. damage for master weapon hits against you or trap collisions; @ full healty, 8 will finish you
 8 = pts. damage for collision with highly-mobile RM or major enemy (QuickMan, for instance); @ full health, 7 will finish you.
10 = pts. damage for collision with basic RM or major enemy; @ full health, 6 will finish you
15 = pts. damage for explosions, major attacks (like colliding with Wily?); @ full health, 4 will finish you

28 = pts. damage for spikes, when "spike insurance" is enabled. It doubles if "false."

How does that sound? Fair and simple enough?



Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #60 on: February 23, 2009, 11:23:06 PM
How many charge shots do you think is fair to wipe out a Robot Master? It's debatable between 6 and 7 shots, they both sound/feel about right
Well, 6 charge shots and 1 little shot are enough to finish a Robot Master in the Game Boy series with its 19-unit bars, so you could say there's precedent there, too.  (And the charge shot was introduced two games after the 19-unit bar, even!)  I guess it was annoying having to shoot a boss with the charged shot successfully 9 or 10 times on console games...

But maybe that's what makes it challenging, and therefore fun!  I mean, it still beats trying to shoot IceMan or ElecMan 28 times.



Offline BaconMan

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Reply #61 on: March 09, 2009, 05:07:09 PM
How Random is Too Random?

I'm actually thinking of starting the project from scratch again - at least the room layouts; though I will keep a backup of where things are now. But after a few days of playing Spelunky, it got me to wondering... what if each level segment was constructed by randomly arranging a stage's elements? Granted, some are very vertical-oriented (ElecMan, CrashMan, and QuickMan come to mind) and many of the aerial ones, in irony, are very horizontal. But maybe doing such a thing is being too random.

I mean, Spelunky makes it work by giving you the ability to destroy the terrain, a liberty that's not very RockMan-like. And while adjusting to differing heights is addressed in many ways... I'm still not totally sure how to make such a thing work - for example, the vanishing-block rooms would have to be arranged so that travel in BOTH directions would be possible, and not by predictably going around in a circle, right?

The other reasoning/excuse behind considering a redo, besides testing this new concept approach, is making sure the graphical adjustments involved would actually work. Since the soundtrack isn't strictly 8-bit, then would using comparable graphics be so bad? (Besides that, there's no sign of NGPC-style HeatMan, GeminiMan, StoneMan, or CentaurMan, anywhere).

Finally, I think I'm kind of up against a wall, here. XD I guess one thing irking my program is the menu/configuration screens. I began charting gameplay rooms first, then came BACK and filled in that need later - but when I did that, the game configured itself to do the gameplay first, and the configuration later. And for some reason, that doesn't work too well! :|

Either way, it's just redoing the room structure that needs done so far - and I may need to make a MMAC-style character-based interface, instead of menus.

But how do you feel about "LEGO" terrain? By that, I mean a series of individually navigable screens, but arranged in a random order, sometimes mirrored around and such? Do you think that's a better approach than totally prearranged scenes? Or maybe use prearranged scenes, but then simply randomize the elements within them...

( :O *sigh* Why can't I just stick teleporters in WilyWars, and call it even? Oh yeah, Magnet Missiles. -u-' )



Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #62 on: March 09, 2009, 11:45:04 PM
So you can't hack the Magnet Missiles to be faster and not seek the wrong things?



Offline BaconMan

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Reply #63 on: March 11, 2009, 05:09:47 PM
Only if I could copy/paste the NES code for them, which I doubt would work; being re-engined and all. Physics speed reflects that, too. And IIRC, the whole reason why they track enemy shots in WW is because the shots are no longer differenciated from being "enemies," themselves. (IE: "Shots = Enemies")

No, I'm just saying "I wish this were easier than it actually is." ;) And in retrospect, randomizing elements probably IS a bad idea, especially if ghost-racing elements are in play, too.

 >_< Oh, [parasitic bomb]. That's right, "stalling" a rival, even minorly, would mistime the widget elements that are timing-specific like vanish-blocks or cloud-lifts. And scrolling them on-screen differently would, as well. That might not work either, after all...



Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #64 on: April 08, 2009, 08:56:42 AM
Well now that I've started noting it, there ARE some things that Magnet Missile fails to seek in this game, but I don't know how you would go about changing the list of them.

Posted on: March 11, 2009, 19:13:28
Hey, so, I'm getting close to finishing my Wily Tower damage table.  Is the big game project still in need of updates about this, or should I post in a separate topic about damage tables?

Anyway, I did some RAM searching recently to check out a few things that were bugging me.  It turns out that the HP values are not multiplied by any particular factor, unless some of the weapons on my chart are listed as doing fractional damage, in which case the hit points and damages will be 2 or 4 times what I typed so that all the values are whole numbers.  So yeah, those 1.7s were really 1.75s, but eh.

One mystery I think I've mostly solved is about the few objects that seem to take hits from any weapon infinitely.  These include the Thunder Chariots that the Lightning Lords ride, the cannonballs fired by the Giant Metool, the blocks thrown by the Junk Golem, and the righthand wall of Hyper Storm H's room.  I discovered that these things all have HP and take damage normally, but when they reach 0, they don't disappear, so weapons that don't disappear when they finish off an enemy will make a grinding noise of hitting an enemy over and over as they pass through one of these objects.  I don't know if this has anything to do with how special weapons do the same thing to Fan Fiends until they finish passing through on the final hit, though.

Part of the reason you can't really rapid-fire the Bomb Fliers from SnakeMan's stage is that they don't have their 3 hit points until they finish their "puff away" animation and start moving again.  I found out that they actually start out with 23 points!  You can hack off a few more of these points while they're "puffing", but then they suddenly jump down to 3.  I labeled them as simply having 4 points in my chart, as for some reason every weapon in the game does exactly 1 point to them, but maybe I should separate bomb from cloud as I did in the NES version.

RAM watching didn't solve the mystery of why Buster Rod G sometimes takes 2 points from a Crash Bomb instead of the usual 1, although it generally happens on the second hit from an explosion when he's been using his spinning shield technique.  Possibly related to this is a situation where an explosion did 4 points to WoodMan after the usual 2 when I detonated it on his shield.  If anyone wants to experiment with this, I could send you a savestate from just before that happened!

When I finish the chart, I might go into more detail about the differences between original and remake.



Offline BaconMan

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Reply #65 on: April 08, 2009, 03:29:12 PM
My guess, on both occasions, is that they're seperate sprites (the "Crash Bomb" and the "Explosion," for instance). Seems like you're already through the first chapter of the bunch (IE: MM1-3/WW); and 4-6 seem pretty systematic... about all I think will change there would be the weapons and their corresponding values. And it's also possible that your final hit -exceeded- the amounts needed to finish a baddie, rather than the exact total thereof. I'm pretty sure that a program as basic as NES-standard games is nearly all solid numbers.

I'm still tinkering. It's just taking time to get things coded correctly. I'm having to recode, making the mistake of hyphenating objects (which for some reason in GM, *always* implies a subtractive calculation, regardless of it's spacing), adjusting the coding to match... and there's not a lot of definitive stuff to talk about, really. ^.^'

I am trying to keep the baddie selection to a minimum of standard grunts (for example, to make everything similar to "Big Eye" or "Sniper Joe" consistent), for both sakes of simplicity and quicker loading; but it's still important to know where different weapons from different titles stand in regards to damaging such enemies. Comparing a Shadow Blade to a Magnet Missile is simple enough, they're in the same game. But comparing either one to say, a Gyro Attack or Silver Tomahawk, might not necessarily be so smooth, you know?

Also, debating on the quantity of screen-dedicated minibosses to feature... and preferably the funnest ones (like the Sphinx-thing in the Uranus stage of MMV (GB), the waterfall squid from AquaMan's stage (MM8), or the elephants in ConcreteMan's stage (MM9)). A lot of them are simply tedious, but some are really fun to fight... and I really just want to plug in the fun ones.



Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #66 on: April 09, 2009, 07:44:06 AM
My guess, on both occasions, is that they're seperate sprites (the "Crash Bomb" and the "Explosion," for instance).
No, it's not like that.  I mean it's long into the explosion, on the second hit long after the first hit, and that's the hit from the explosion that does double.

I did find a way to hit regular enemies double with the Fire Storm, because the shot and the shield can be used one right after the other.  But you can't get the extreme combos from it like the other games, because both shot and shield are absorbed when they hit.  That's one of the weapon changes I'll get into more later...

And it's also possible that your final hit -exceeded- the amounts needed to finish a baddie, rather than the exact total thereof.
No, otherwise that phenomenon would be happening a lot more.  It's always just those few things that take infinite hits, and their numbers don't go negative.  I guess the real reason I brought it up was that I meant to ask whether I should include their HP values and damages, with the caveat that they don't actually die from hitting 0 HP.  I might as well, since I already stuffed the chart with rows of projectiles, just because the Magnet Missile seeks them.  So everything else is "0, passes through," or for Top Spin, "0, uses no energy."



Offline BaconMan

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Reply #67 on: April 11, 2009, 08:04:47 PM
I mean that about other baddies, not just undamagable ones. Baddies themselves can be sub-coded to take "0 damage" from a weapon, rather than -just- deflecting the shots (Mizziles in MM5 come to mind). But exceeding the total damage for enemies theory pertains mostly to other enemies, not just the infinitely-damagable kind.

Proof of concept: I suppose charged Buster ~= 4 shots. Or at least, it's supposed to.



Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #68 on: April 12, 2009, 01:47:36 AM
How does that video support your belief?  He hardly charged up at all.  I tried playing that part of the game just now, and a single fully-charged shot was NOT enough to beat the Malmets which normally take 4 shots, and it only took 3 notches off the Skull Blazer meter.



Offline Practice

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Reply #69 on: April 12, 2009, 04:46:02 AM
This looks like a cool idea, if i can make one recommendation..

Use the items from mega man 2, at least Item-1 and Item-2.

Rush coil/jet are trash, sub in anything you want for Item 3 and this hack will be really awesome.



Offline BaconMan

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Reply #70 on: April 17, 2009, 10:06:32 PM
How does that video support your belief?  He hardly charged up at all.  I tried playing that part of the game just now, and a single fully-charged shot was NOT enough to beat the Malmets which normally take 4 shots, and it only took 3 notches off the Skull Blazer meter.

So you all think = 3 shots should still be the standard, then?

The other comparison I was making before was that of Shadow Blades, Magnet Missiles, and Gyro Attacks to enemies, in comparison. Should each of those only = ~3 shots too?


Practice: I am using the MM4-style Balloon lifts, a practical equal of Item-1, and Item-2 is roughly equal to the Super Arrow from MM5, which is also featured; only main difference being that it doubles as a weapon and you can have more than one on the screen at a time. (I'm making that a set amount of energy though, not the continious/nearly-instant drainage that MM5 does with it.)

I suppose I could duplicate them with their MM2 sprites, for what that would matter. But roof-squishing = death, not glitching. Fair warning!



Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #71 on: April 17, 2009, 11:16:30 PM
Crush kills aren't cool.  Just make the items vanish if they get too close to a wall.



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #72 on: April 18, 2009, 05:02:26 AM
It'd make more sence if you fell off the item / balloon than being crushed to death.


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Reply #73 on: April 19, 2009, 03:12:28 AM
So you all think = 3 shots should still be the standard, then?

The other comparison I was making before was that of Shadow Blades, Magnet Missiles, and Gyro Attacks to enemies, in comparison. Should each of those only = ~3 shots too?


Practice: I am using the MM4-style Balloon lifts, a practical equal of Item-1, and Item-2 is roughly equal to the Super Arrow from MM5, which is also featured; only main difference being that it doubles as a weapon and you can have more than one on the screen at a time. (I'm making that a set amount of energy though, not the continious/nearly-instant drainage that MM5 does with it.)

I suppose I could duplicate them with their MM2 sprites, for what that would matter. But roof-squishing = death, not glitching. Fair warning!

You may consider letting people zip?

In my opinion - I mean, honestly, it's pretty hard to get into a wall by accident, sure it can happen I guess... But some people do it for fun. Wall = death is one of the worst ideas by capcom, ever. All it does is limits players who want to do it, and it can be very hard mind you in some situations to even get it to work.

It's not like your going to have everybody zipping through the walls and nobody playing the game. Alot of people don't know how zipping even works, and some people who do - don't like it so choose not to.



Offline BaconMan

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Reply #74 on: May 15, 2009, 11:47:22 PM
I dunno.

Progress: Working lots of bugs/inconsistencies out now, getting minor baddies to act right, and procrastinating a bit too.

 8) '

Also, anybody know if the Robot Master sprites for Rock8/Rock & Forte FC are done yet?