Input on an all-inclusive Endless Stage application...

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Offline BaconMan

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on: January 23, 2009, 01:02:54 AM
Hello, fellow RockFans. I'm TonyTheTGR, and I've began a GameMaker MegaMan project that I would really like some feedback/discussion about. Ideally, once completed, it will allow you to custom-configure (to a point) any Master Weapon setup to date, and include portions of every stage, as well. There are a few debatable differences throughout the series, though; which is where I could use the most feedback.

Also, programming genuinely kicks my butt; so getting a hand there would be nifty, too.

This YouTube begins the discussion... and forgive the annotation screwups; particularly at the end of "Part 2." I tried correcting them, only for YouTube to lock up and crash my computer... multiple times...

If you don't have an account, or feel like commenting, discuss it here instead. :D



Offline VixyNyan

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Reply #1 on: January 23, 2009, 01:07:53 AM
So basically, you want the player to be able to use every single weapon from every Classic series game, on any stage, against any boss?

An "Endless Attack" type game that has all these features in it?

It does feel like the "Wily Tower" mode in "Rockman Megaworld" / "The Wily Wars". I like this idea. ^^

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Offline BaconMan

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Reply #2 on: January 23, 2009, 11:00:18 PM
So basically, you want the player to be able to use every single weapon from every Classic series game, on any stage, against any boss?

An "Endless Attack" type game that has all these features in it?

It does feel like the "Wily Tower" mode in "Rockman Megaworld" / "The Wily Wars". I like this idea. ^^

At the start of the game, you can set up a selection of different weapons... I suppose a total freeplay "for fun" mode that allows total access to all weapons could be a fun feature, too... but the result is that yes, any weapon can be accessed and used, in any stage. :)

More details available here, on my latest and greatest Rock3 Endless video (3-parter). And yes, part 2's annotations screw up on me, again...  :|



Offline Turian

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Reply #3 on: January 24, 2009, 06:56:41 AM
So this rival you speak of, is it an online opponent? Or even a real person? Or is it a Ghost like in racing games?



Offline N-Mario

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Reply #4 on: January 24, 2009, 08:34:17 AM
I've actually had a similar idea to this. except the levels would not be so random. It would be like one huge endless castle maze. And the bosses you face would either be completely random, or only random from the game series.

My other idea was just a robot master marathon. You would run into a room with 8 or 9 or so teleporters, each teleporter took you to an area to fight against a series of robot masters based on a particular game series.

And why Game Maker? The reason I never liked that is it doesn't give you an internal key config menu for games. So are you building this game from scratch, or do you have some sort of Mega Man source code for Game Maker?



Offline BaconMan

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Reply #5 on: January 24, 2009, 07:35:10 PM
Turian: More like a Ghost in racing games; but I'm thinking of setting it up later to "swap data" with other players online - so then, you'll be using Ghosts of other players, which is pretty close to online vs. play. Or about as close as a game in this format could get, and still be fair.

The sublevels are simply put in a random order, and on harder levels, given a couple of random elements (like spawning interference enemies) on higher difficulties. And the Robot Master marathon, that's exactly what "Power Mode" is. ;) (EDIT: Minus the teleporters.)

GameMaker (so far) is because I suck at real programming, and it seems like the best alternative so far. Other things I've been considering include map-editing/hacking Rock7FC, and ROM-hacking Rockman 2/3/5 endless to change terrain, and maybe a few weapons/graphics. But I wanted this to be configurable/expandable, so those didn't seem like good choices to go with.

The graphics so far, are from a combination of Rock7FC and NGPC's Battle & Fighters; but the programming/coding so far is totally from scratch. I would like to make a key config for it, as well... but that's a little less important than, you know, having a program that actually launches and runs. ^.^'

I'm also trying to set up starting points so that it creates an instance of "your character," and not "just" one of MegaMan. And at the moment, finding a way to set up the different weapons without having to copy and recolor every character ~80-100 times. ~.~ But so far, that sounds like the *right* way to do this.

On the bright side, I think I've narrowed down the soundtrack to just over 40 tunes, so far! XD

Not really a spoiler, I'm just saving you some screen space:
[spoiler]
Opening Movie (?): Title Mix Medley (RockCD)
Title Screen: TPB Ending - RockMan part 2 (TPB)
Config Screen: Rockman 3 Stage Select (TPB) or Rockman 8 Stage Select (Rock8)
Stage Start: Stage Start (TPB) -- That's a tough one!
Custom Levels/Fallback BGM: Maze of Death (Rock9 Arr)
General MM1 Level: GutsMan (TPF)
General MM2 Level: Skull Castle #1 (TPF)
General MM3 Level: Get a Weapon remix (RockCD)
General MM4 Level: Cossack Lab #2 (RockCD)
General MM5 Level: NapalmMan (TPF; the one used for Crash/Dust Man)
General MM6 Level: Stage Select (MM6 Arr/TPF)
General MM7 Level: Rock7 Intro Level (OG)
General MM8 Level: Rock8 Intro Level (OG)
General MM9 Level: We're The Robots (Rock9 Arr)
General MMV Level: Mercury Rising (MMV cover)
General MM&B Level: Robot Museum (MM&B cover)
General Wily Levels: Yellow Devil Showdown (TPB)

City/Urbal Levels: CutMan (TPF)
Water Levels: Splash Blue (Rock9 Arr) or BubbleMan (TPF)
Ice/Crystal Levels: GeminiMan (MM3 cover) or Frost Man (MM8 OG)
Space Levels: StarMan (TechnoCD)
Sewer Levels: MetalMan or ShadowMan (RockCD)
Temple Stages: GroundMan (MM&B cover)
Wilderness Levels: TomahawkMan (RockCD)
Aerial/Gyro Levels: CloudMan (TPB) or AirMan (TPF)
Electro/Magnetic Levels: GravityMan (MM5 Cover) and/or Plug Electric (MM9 Arr)**
Circus Levels: Concrete Jungle (Rock9 Arr)
Lab Levels: Galaxy Fantasy (Rock9 Arr)
Fire Levels: Blaze Heatnix (MMX6 cover)
"Cylinder" Levels: SnakeMan (TechnoCD) or FlameStag (MMX2 cover)***
"QuickLaser" Levels: TopMan (MM3 cover)
Wily Levels: Wily #1s (MM7 and MM8)
Game Over: Game Over (TPB)
Results/Continue Screen: Cutie Roll (MM9 Arr)

**=I'm not sure, this may be two entirely different stage types; like SparkMan vs. MagnetMan in MM3, or BrightMan vs. DustMan in MM4... CrashMan/QuickMan in MM2 face the same argument.

***=A subtle, but recurring theme. Look at SnakeMan, DiveMan, and TurboMan; you'll see what I'm getting at.
[/spoiler]

...and there you have it. Twice as big as it still needs to be, but anything less would barely be half as cool, right?


Finally, I think I'm going to go with *not* crossing 4-block pits/walls with jumps by default for now. After all, between Rush, Beat, Mega Ball, Ice Wall, Concrete Shot, Tornado Hold, etc.; there's tons of ways to work around that. You might as well have an excuse to use them, right? HOWEVER, there is a module to "fast walk," and one to "high jump," so equipping one of those might change your circumstances! ;) (And equipping both? Well, you'd be pretty freakin' incredible then, wouldn't you?)



Offline kuja killer

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Reply #6 on: January 24, 2009, 08:58:39 PM
Well to me eh, i don't know. I'm really not a fan of any sort of program that's outside of NES/SNES/etc emulators in comparison to flash, gamemaker, or whatever types of programs because they usually are never that good in my opinion in terms of the feel of gameplay, the controls, and especially how some people don't ever let the user customize the keys setup cause your forced to use whatever the author made only.

I recently tried out some "megaman return of wily" thing done with a game maker program, i know the graphics were great, lots of good stuff and level design, but i did not ever bother playing it because it felt very sluggish, and the jump/shoot buttons were reversed like the gamecube mm anniversary, and NOT customizable which really irritated me. :( I seriously can't play a megaman game at all with reversed controls. I'm not used to it at all.

I would not suggest taking the japanese hacks rock2, 3, and 5 endless by MISTY, and Rock5easily, hacking them, and re-releasing their patches as your own. I just wanted to say this because very recently alot of japanese people on the rockman 2ch forum i hang out at alot, were very upset and went berzerk over a youtube video posted by insedectuel where he accidently took some music from rockman DEM without the author's permission or something like that, which caused a bunch of japanese 2ch'ers to go real crazy. (this was only about 1 week ago)

Anyway, i'm not saying i hate your idea, don't mean that at all, i like it very much and look forward to see how ya do :) I'm just saying my honest thoughts. I've had thoughts about wanting to make an endless myself as well. for megaman 6 or 4. But I really do not have time to.



Offline Thanatos-Zero

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Reply #7 on: January 24, 2009, 09:21:41 PM
The endless mode is for sure interresting for any game, but without extras like the enhanced Yellow Devil of the Rockman 3 Endless hack, it becomes boring since you walk already through known places with some minimal differences. More changes would have been better to make the hack appear more advanced.
As for the Showdown hack of Insect Duel. Walking directly to bosses is boring, I want to surpass a [tornado fang]ing hard stage which kills me numerous times.



Offline Master ZED

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Reply #8 on: January 24, 2009, 11:25:38 PM
Well, if you want input, here's my take (though some of it assumes this project becomes more than vaporware):

1. If you're gonna create really difficult crap like in the Endless hacks, separate them via a difficulty option.  I prefer the way MM9 did things, though I guess the hacks appeal to someone out there.  Heck, the way I'd do it is more like how 6 had optional paths for four of the bosses to get Beat; with this method, the player could dictate the difficulty at pretty much any time provided they had what it took to reach the optional teleporter, which would be awesome.  To this end, I would *NOT* require special weapons as much as possible on the easier levels for Mega Buster-only junkies.  I prefer to use the Buster as much as I possibly can in Endless, which is why my EA compilation only uses Laser Trident and Concrete Shot when required for no damage purposes except in two instances (one where the Trident is required just to proceed and the other for an easier path that isn't possible to avoid taking damage on without using a special weapon).  For harder levels?  Sure, why not, I'm not playing those.  Whatever you do, DEFINITELY make boss damage invulnerability time setting an option.  2 and 9 did it right, but I hate the other games in this regard, especially MM&B.
2. Along with a fully customizable button config, include individual sound volume (people do want to hear something different from time to time yet want to keep the sound effects, despite what Japanese game companies like to believe).  A game that does not give you these simple choices can easily be considered garbage faster than a game that has them.  In fact, forget music for now.  Players can supply their own.  You can add a soundtrack later.
3. Timer/energy loss option.  Should a timer make things harder, or should the energy loss be increased?  Why not both, or perhaps neither (sometimes I just want to play, challenge be damned)?  Again, this should be an option.  A timer by itself should not be considered "hard mode."
4. Physics choices!  Separate by Mega Man and Rush.  Some people might like MM2's crappy slide to a halt, while I really like 9's stop-on-a-dime method and horizontally faster jumps.  I'm all for freedom of choice in my gaming, if you haven't noticed.  Sure, it'll be harder to make, but to me, it wouldn't be worth it otherwise.
5. Bonuses would be nice, but I hardly think they're necessary.  If you do include them, I'd rather you did something unique instead of *just* harder bosses and such, like maybe take a reference from Kirby Super Star and have an MMBN-like level for instance.  You could even do a level where weaker RM's make up the regular enemies.

I can think of more, but that's enough for the moment.



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #9 on: January 25, 2009, 02:57:13 AM
Really, I'd love just a RM fighter with every single RM made.  Like the Power Fighters, but broader.

Anyway, though, this seems like a fun idea.  I agree with the difficulty setting needing to be in place. 

The Gameboy games might be a real challenge, when you think about it.  The screen was very small on those games and, consequentially, the worlds are made for a smaller screen in mind.  You might want to remake a battle just to show how it'd be done (might I suggest Quint?  A favorite of mine, even if his attack pattern is lame). 
 
I imagine this'll include the ability to expand the game as well ... which seems a great way to do add-on levels. 

As for the minor phisics details ... I'd probably max them out, so that jumps from all games are possible.  I dunno how many people would notice, though. 


Offline Canticleer Blues

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Reply #10 on: January 25, 2009, 04:22:30 AM
I knew this was gonna happen eventually.  It's just too good of an idea to not do. I'll give you my suggestions in a PM, 'cause I don't want to clutter this topic with any more huge posts. 



Offline BaconMan

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Reply #11 on: January 26, 2009, 05:01:19 PM
I knew this was gonna happen eventually.  It's just too good of an idea to not do. I'll give you my suggestions in a PM, 'cause I don't want to clutter this topic with any more huge posts. 

Huge posts are half the point of the topic! :D

So, let's see here...


DIFFICULTIES BREAKDOWN

-FAIR-
Areas are untimed.
Features regular power-up support (like "?" cans). The extra support module adds extras.
Most areas are straight-forward, and usually do not feature constant-spawning enemies (like floating head-things, for example).
You're allowed 7 modules to use. (See next section on those.)

-HARD-
You get 2 minutes per area.
Features fewer power-up supports, the extra support module makes it equal to "FAIR" mode.
Areas that were originally made with constant-spawning enemies will feature them.
You're allowed 6 modules to use.

-MEGA-
You get 1 minute per area. (Each area is 5-10 screens, meaning you'll need to keep an average pace of about 8 seconds per screen to not fail!)
Features *no* powerup supports by default, extra support makes it equal to normal "HARD" mode.
Any area at random can feature constant-spawning enemies.
You're only allowed 5 modules to use. And if that's not hard enough, you can *choose* to use fewer modules, too!

-POWER-
Untimed areas.
No powerup supports by default, extra support will place one in each "exit chamber."
You fight a boss every 3 screens, instead of every 30 or so. So basically, you're *constantly* fighting bosses. ;)
You're allowed 5 modules to use... but let's face it, there's no tricky platforming here. Gun up!

MODULES SUMMARY

Each module will allow you to equip yourself with a choice of:

-4 Robot Master Weapons (per set, including a "random selecton" of any 4)
-1 Primary Weapon (Mega Buster, Proto Shield, Piercing Laser, Mega Fist, etc.; if disregarded, = P.Shooter)
-1 Secondary Weapon (Balloon Lift, Hook Shot, Super Arrow, Mega Ball, etc.)
-1 Pet (Rush, Beat, Treble, or Tango; 3 functions apiece)
-1 E-Tank (to begin with)
-Super Jumping
-Fast Running
-Sliding or Dashing
-Extra Support
-Energy Balancer
-Energy Amplifier (+1 to life/weapon powerups)
-Energy Converter (surplus of one energy type charges the other)

-Maybe Spike Insurance (spikes = 50% damage, not "instant death") and/or Double Jumping, but maybe that's being too nice...

...also consider that this can lead to a large variety of strategies. Take for example:

-Super Jump
-Fast Walk
-Extra Support
-Energy Amplifier
-Energy Converter
-Mega Ball

You see, having no Master Weapons, as long as MegaBall is full, every powerup will yield you health because of the Energy Converter. The Amplifier will then increase each power-up's value by one, giving you quite an edge healthwise. Super Jumping and Mega Ball together would make it very hard to get stuck, anywhere. The Fast Walk will help you score good time, without sliding around, out of control; and the Extra Support would see to it that you're never hurting either way for too long... after all, weapon or life power can be converted either way!

And this is a strategy you could still use on HARD, even! With Easy, you can add any Buster, Master Weapon subset, or a starting E-Tank on top of that!

RANDOMIZABLE VARIABLES!

On top of shuffling the rooms' orders; I figured the usual runthrough could use some mixing up. So one thing I'm looking to do, as illustrated in one of the MM2 videos; is to map key points, and generate randomized, yet appropriate enemies (IE: aerial ones in the air; stationary ones in stationary positions, etc.). This also includes the different varieties of spawning enemies.

Random Robot Master weaknesses and immunities! They may not even make sense anymore. This may be in place of, or in addition to classic ones.

MORE REPLY!

Rest assured, custom controls and gamepad support are very much a must!  ~w~ And likely, with an option to not only adjust SFX/BGM seperately, but a simple switch to toggle them on and off as well.

Charting the Gameboy titles' maps is indeed something different; those games also have vastly different physics to them as well; heck it takes pro-timing just to make a 3-block wide jump in them! They will probably be stretched/scaled to work within conventional MM physics. MM7 is ironically the closest non-NES title to the OG format, the only real difference in it, is that they put the ladder-side graphics (and NOT the actual "ladder itself!") in the neighboring tiles. MM8's is fairly similar, but the graphics are really stretched out horizontally, and the horizontal motion physics are way slower - that's why a 2-tile gap is actually hard to cross sometimes in that game, and why the levels feel SOOO freaking LOOONG. (They aren't *that* big. You're just slow.)

And even though MM9 is quite similar, the NES rooms are 16 x 15 tiles; where the Legacy ones are only 16 x 14. It sort of evens out, because the NES-standard "sea level" was on the third tile up, where Legacy's is on the second one, instead. I just hope it doesn't throw off the horizontal screen-scoring!

Room difficulty, for the most part, will probably max out at your standard "Dr. Wily Levels;" or about as hard as that. I do like being able to choose a psychotically difficult path, or a more standard one; but I'll probably balance that out by making the super-difficult path more short, and the managable ones more of a detour. Some level layouts have already required that I make detours in the game, particularly where sliding is concerned. Since sliding is an optional module, it's not too uncommon for a level like say, NeedleMan's, to become impossible to do without it - so a way around that has to be made.

There probably will be a *couple* of unavoidable, near-certain-death rooms; as pro players (which this isn't particularly aimed -in favor- of, but would certainly include them and their needs as well) also need a point in which they would get canned, eventually. There will probably be less than 5 of those, though; which would give any of them about a 1% (or less!) chance of occuring.

Custom maps/a map editor is something I would like to do; though it would probably be more of an update, once the engine/application is established.

Making a map the old fashioned-way is far more work than you might expect! First the "objects" define the boundaries and ground from open air, others define what blocks have water, or wind... then you have your "foreground," which is just graphics that cover all of that up; like a stage set - and that usually has to be added seperately... then you place the widgets (you know, the things that make the levels act different? Like the disappearing blocks, falling platforms, those "warp thingys" in GalaxyMan's stage, the springs and "ClownMan blocks..." all kinds of things like that!).

Then after all of that, you have to set starting points, ending points, enemy locations; if they spawn, then under what conditions and where from... it's not like putting together LEGOs, you know! (Like MMPU makes it look.) Then coming up with a way to auto-tile all of that stuff will take a long time!


I did think of one other weird kind of thing, once; but it would have to be "Flash"ed to work... An end-user MegaMan game, where you design up to 10 sublevels, which using a buddy system, are then linked to one another's. IE, someone beats one of your levels, they can then play another one of yours, or one of your friends'. But that would have to be a totally-online/web-based kind of game. That can be somebody else's pet project! I'm already in over my head with this! :|

Posted on: January 26, 2009, 04:48:42 PM
So, with all of that aside; what do you think the Robot Master encounters should be?

Old-fashioned, one-to-two screen brawls? Maybe in pairs?
Still a battle, but in an active scene (imagine fighting CrashMan in a stage that looped vertically, with differing pits/platforms, with or without enemy-spawning).
Goal-oriented? Pattern-oriented? New patterns/moves added?

That's one part that I'm still really undecided on; and I really don't want to make 3-4 of every boss, to correspond by doing different things with different difficulties... (though I suppose that's possible, too... then again, so's having 100 copies of MM, to handle each weapon seperately - could be done, but I'd rather find a smarter/simpler way to do that!).

And you thought MM GB's were gonna be bad! Downside: more weird physics/inconsistencies, and is that a SMB springblock?  :| Upside: More GravityMan fun!  8)



Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #12 on: January 27, 2009, 01:50:55 AM
Don't forget about the sideways level!



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #13 on: January 27, 2009, 07:06:37 AM
If you include those you should definately include the PC games.  Just imagine how hard it would be to try and find your way through a par tof PC3 with a timer!  ACK!

I dunno, I think some of these small things don't matter so much.  I brought up the gamebloy games, but the walls could just be .... really, really thick, you know?  Resizing them might ruin the effect of including them.  Well ... I think testing is the key more than speculating.  And, really, including wierd stuff like R&FWS (and even the PC games) would involve a lot more work than just physics .... you'd probably have to redraw a lot of things yourself.

I don't think you'd nessesarily need some "super tough" levels that have a 1% chance of surival just for the hard players.  Just the gradual grinding-down of the player ought to be enough, IMHO.

I don't think some of the consistancy issues will be too noticable in your remake.  But I guess we'll wait and see.  Where are you starting with this?  MM1?  MM2?


Offline BaconMan

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Reply #14 on: January 27, 2009, 03:18:07 PM
Platforming-wise, I'm aiming at MM3; in a weird kind of way that lets you set up any other feel to go along with it (hence, the optional sliding/busters). MM1-2 were total bitches! :W There's a fair number of widgets that I'm just not gonna bother remaking (yet), and a couple of things will be ditched entirely (like MM5's "Retard Coil")... and some are easily substituted (like the "RingMan roads," why not just use drop-blocks?)

And actually, given presence of the E-Tank, and the normal frequency of power-ups; the certain-doom chambers are necessary, indeed. In fact, go to YouTube, watch *any* 3 Endless Attack videos, of any version (MM2, MM3, MM5, or MM9), and see when these players die. It's almost ALWAYS some kind of instant-kill trap, like a missed/mistimed jump. Very rarely are they worn down. Besides, there's a good chance of one *not* being featured for quite awhile... and I may make it possible to avoid them entirely. But you'll have to be smart - and correctly equipped - to pull something like that off!

This one actually IS a spoiler, btw.
[spoiler]I thought of doing one or two sections as a sort of tribute to IWBTG! ;)
How could I -not- make that a deathtrap?[/spoiler]

Not only that, there's *nothing* like the sensation you get, when you FINALLY beat that crap. You feel proud, like you've accomplished something special; and providing that kind of sensation - based on skill and practice, not dumb luck - is a vital ingredient to the MegaMan experience! (And the gaming experience as a whole!) In fact, that factor alone is usually what makes a great MegaMan game stand above the average ones (IE: why many people still to this day, favor MM's 2 & 3).

Rush Jet and Beat Plane are there for whoring.

And the GB levels? 10 x 8 tiles, and you don't think that takes some resizing? o.O Only problem with leaving them in their OG format, is that they rely on a 3-block high barrier (IE: you can only jump 2 1/2 tiles high), which would be easily penetrated with normal physics. I've seen ONE 4-block wide jump EVER, and that was on the Saturn level, with modified gravity to boot.

Now, that online level-editor project I mentioned above? That would probably be *best* to do in GB size/physics, which would make level creation and loading times minimal! Plus, they didn't focus a whole lot on widgets... they were much more like MM&B, as the whole power-up risk/reward thing was present in practically every level, ever. Smart item use, or just dumb luck would often get you something good. They were pretty basic layouts, too.

I did stumble upon plays of the PC titles... and you know, that *might* sorta work, if they were sectioned off. I don't think they're map-charted, though... (am I the only person who thinks it's funny just how worthless the P-Shooter is in those games? Oh no! Knee-high enemies, everywhere!) I'm not totally sure I'm going to do that, or "Rockman +42" yet. (At least in the latter's case, I wouldn't have to track any new music. But the way the BGM restarts after every pause/weapon switch would drive me NUTS.)



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #15 on: January 28, 2009, 07:21:17 AM
* resizing GB games

I suppose I never really looked at it, but the graphics all are NES-sized ... at least vaguely (the early games shrunk their RMs int he wash).  I'm not really looking at this from the tiles perspectibve ... aren't you totally remaking that anyway?  And, if so, does it really matter how the origional games stores anything?  You can just rip the existing graphics from level maps and compile them how you see fit.  That's my view.

* PC games

The PC games are sort of my "adopted" game.  Even made / edited a bunch of NES-ized Robot Masters if you're interested.  An NES/PC project was gonna use them, but I dunno how that turned out. 

The PC games, to me, seem ideal for an endless mode .... especially one that's timed.  Just because of how annoying some of those maps from PC 3 are ... you can leave out the shoddy graphics, play control, and physics.  lol.  There's entire maps of them all at VGMaps.  PC1 follows a more traditional MM game's style, but PC3 is total freeroaming ... hence the frustration.  But I think you could section off portions and make it work.  I think it'd be an interesting sort of challenge ... entirely your call.  Although if you do use them ... Torch is my favorite of the bunch.  The only level out of them all that might be impossible to section off would be Sharkman's level because of how free it is ... no point in remaking the entire thing.  I mean, you wouldn't be remaking any levels in their entirety anyway, but Sharkie's has no "hard parts" to section off and the swimming is quite irksome.  Although you could say it'd add one "instant death" room.

*Ringman's platforms

I dunno about sub stituting them for something else ... they were pretty neat little things in MM4.  If you can do it with hardly anything different ...

- Good choice with MM3!  lol.  Naturally I am a huge MM3 fan.  Really, I think there's just nothing but to do it and worry about adding more when the time calls for it. 

Really, I think there's nothing to it but to do it as they say....


Offline kuja killer

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Reply #16 on: January 28, 2009, 09:21:06 AM
http://www.a3share.com/members/1119/megaman5GBtest-0.png
I once tried to create at least 1 screen from one of the levels on the gameboy megaman 5, on the NES. Those were all the exact tiles all copied using tile layer pro, and YY-CHR from megaman5.GB to megaman3.NES

And i did not stretch anything or touch any of it, but that's how it came out. It's sooo small for the NES screen :(

They would not be able to be stretched by double the size because the Gameboy's reolsution would have to end up matching the NES's precisly. And they do not equal each other. So it would not come out right any way whatsoever if it were done. I don't know how it would ever be possible to make gameboy graphics decent enough for a NES reoslution.

Edit: Oh yea, but check this out. Was looking through my screenshots from my fceuxd 1.0a folder, and this one time a really long time ago, i tested out more gameboy megaman 5 graphics, and you know the big wily ship right before going to the wily stages after fighting Terra ? ..well i did a test by seeing how the ship would look on the NES..and i stretched it out by double the size, and spent many hours adding color, and and so on.

http://www.a3share.com/members/1119/117.png
THIS turned out pretty good. It's not a copy-paste in paint. It really was an in-game screenshot i took for reals. Even coded it to slowly move up and down, giving it a boss lifebar, but that's it :P



Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #17 on: January 28, 2009, 01:06:06 PM
* resizing GB games

I suppose I never really looked at it, but the graphics all are NES-sized ... at least vaguely (the early games shrunk their RMs int he wash).
Only the second game bothered to redraw every character slightly smaller.  The rest of them only shrank the very largest enemies.

Have any of you seen Joseph Collins' attempt to hack the NES CutMan level to resemble the GB one?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU2elvmgRi0  Now, it's not perfect, and obviously it doesn't include the conveyor belts and the sawblade enemies, but it gives you an idea.



Offline BaconMan

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Reply #18 on: January 28, 2009, 11:05:00 PM
Yes, in fact I have seen the CutMan remake, and something like that is what I had in mind - recreating the general layouts of the rooms, in ways that would work and make sense with classic physics. :) And maybe adding a couple more enemies here and there, to fill in the extra space created by doing that. (Gauntlet: I mean stretching the room layouts, not the tiles/characters.)

There's a swimming level that's not in MM8? Perhaps further justification for a "swimming module..." though that would also enable you to swim through StarMan's level, and parts of Saturn's, too... (since the low-grav areas are just "water areas, without graphical water.") I'll have to check out the maps, see if I can adapt them, since the idea of timed rooms isn't to get the player lost; it's to give them a start and a finish, clearly defined, and a challenge to get from one to the other. I'm sure there's *some* areas that would work with, and maybe a couple of "find the transporter" areas would just add some nice variety to the bunch.

Do you really think Robot Masters or weapons from them would make very much of a difference? The NES-ized masters would be interesting to look at, if nothing else - I wonder if there are SNES-ized ones, too... I know some of the MMV ones could be edited/adapted from other RM's (like NapalmMan = Mars, or ShadeMan = Jupiter).

Reason I'm going with Battle and Fighters first, is because they coincide with both potentials (NES + SNES). The game itself runs in double-resolution; which the SNES-ized graphics can be "layered over" the classic ones, if that option is enabled. Of course, I'm still looking for HeatMan, GeminiMan, StoneMan, and CentaurMan of NGPC-format; which Sprites, Inc. is still missing.


For the testing version, I'm using a very basic, ugly tileset that just establishes basics - here's the spikes, here's the ground, here's the ladders and the water... the "uglytiles" can be copied and adapted to different themes/looks, which again, will probably be a little more lazy than the actual NES ones (after all, CAPCOM has an entire art team!).


Those MMV adaptations are really nice-looking, btw! I always pictured "the Wily Star" ("the Meth Star?") as a wannabe Death Star, which is exactly what it reminds me of! If *any* of the GB games needs a proper adaptation, it's MMV. The purple skull is a very nice, Wily-esque touch, too.



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #19 on: January 29, 2009, 12:03:16 AM
http://gauntlet101010.deviantart.com/art/Megaman-PC-NES-sprites-94680018
There's my PC NES-ized Robot Masters.   I didn't fully make them (long story), but they're mostly mine.I also made some symbols for their weapons, but they aren't in 8-bit.

The Weapons ... well, IMHO, you should handle the special weapons like the Wily Wars did.  That said, no they aren't really worth anything.    The PC1 guys all have far superior and similar types of weapons from canon MM games while the PC3 guys mostly have shot-type of weapons that aren't too unique.  It'd just be nice for the PC guys to be included.

The water levels aren't like Bubbleman's water levels.  They require swimming.  That said .... you don't have to be totally true to them at all. 


Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #20 on: January 29, 2009, 03:37:01 AM
There's a swimming level that's not in MM8? Perhaps further justification for a "swimming module..." though that would also enable you to swim through StarMan's level, and parts of Saturn's, too... (since the low-grav areas are just "water areas, without graphical water.")
So you can't just add different kinds of water, maybe separate them into Jump Water, Float Water, and Swim Water?



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #21 on: January 29, 2009, 07:48:06 AM
It's definately possible to seperate different kinds of water.  To a computor it's all just programming.  That's why, in Mario 1, Mario can swim in some water and other times he dies! 


Offline BaconMan

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Reply #22 on: January 29, 2009, 05:05:41 PM
Well, yeah. But does separating "swimable" water from "unswimable" water make sense to end-users?  :| (Plus, in SMB1, water Mario dies in is just not identified as "water" at all. It's a pit, like any other, but with pretty water BG graphics.) So far, the water is just "0.5x gravity" areas, but if I make a swimming module, it will be to react to that. I suppose I could just copy/rename the space-jumping areas... or, maybe just allow swimming in space anyways. XD Again, that's if I -do- swimming...

Anybody have animations of Mega, Proto, Bass, Zero, S. Adapt Mega, T. Boost Bass swimming? In 8-bit, 16-bit, and/or 32-bit? ~.~' (Finding ladder-climbing one for Bass/Proto is a PitA, too! So far, I've only got 8-bit Proto [ProtoMan 9], and 32-bit Bass [RnF/MMnB]. Rock and Zero are both solid though, through and through. Except maybe Zero jump-shooting...)

Re: MMPC Bosses

Those are pretty good edits, btw! I'll have to look up a little more on them... but what kinds of battles do you think would be coolest? The conditional/situational battles, the classic patterns, new patterns/moves, or player reactions? I want to do something that will establish them some personality... give them some basic movements, and then 3 priorities to accomplish with them... which could make for both simplistic programming and yet, diverse gameplay.

I recognize a few (SharkMan being obvious, along with Dyna/Volt/... and uh, that other one, too... oh yeah! SonicMan.  >w< ...and then Torch. I'm guessing Toxy is the ~= AirMan, right?

Perhaps a small touch-up of the OG boss sprites could double as the 16-bitters, too.


VGMaps has MM 1/3 for PC, but not 2. Was there a PC MM2?  ???

Well, this certainly WILL add some unexpected variety to the mix, that's for sure! You think we should actually make those weapons interesting this time?

Also, it looks like there's only two parts to Sharky's level that would require swimming, one of them reaching his chamber (which in an Endless setting, would be worthless anyways), and the part just below it. The, uh, texturing of the levels may take some "blockifying" to work, but the general layouts are no less adaptable than the portable titles, I suppose. But they'll probably be an early update, as establishing a working engine, that does what we *know* it should do; is the obvious first step in all of this.

And yes! They have R&F2, as well! 8)

If somebody has the MMPC titles, especially 3; do you think I can get a weapons usage clip for it? If there's other items along those lines, that would kick as well.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #23 on: January 29, 2009, 10:07:15 PM
I'd like to see an option to select a constant BGM.  'cuz an Endless Attack with MM3's Wily Stage 2 throughout its entirety would be epic beyond all sane reasoning.

Well, yeah. But does separating "swimable" water from "unswimable" water make sense to end-users?
'bout as much as separating current-water from death-water (Xtreme2).

Just have the death-water flash so that it looks all electrified and stuff.

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Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #24 on: January 30, 2009, 01:03:00 AM
VGMaps has MM 1/3 for PC, but not 2. Was there a PC MM2?  ???
If there is one, I've never read anything about it on the Web.  They may have skipped from 1 to 3 in order to profit off the popularity of the NES game, or so they could re-use the box art and pass off SparkMan as BitMan.