Author Topic: Talk about Live Metals  (Read 6263 times)

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Offline MassKiller1

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Talk about Live Metals
« on: December 26, 2008, 11:27:10 AM »
This question came up with my assumption that Model Z has only a Saber and no buster. An associate of mine that I usually chat to about Rockman facts and theories believed Model Z had a buster because of the abilities of Model Zx.

Model X is a very interesting Live Metal to all others because of it's unique ability to double rock-on with any other Metal and make it available for usage. In other words a Model Ax IS a possibility and Vent/Aile could ultimately use the Trans-on ability but only use the forms of those whos DNA was already copied and stored information by Model A (the Model not Grey/Ashe); however possible it may be there's no chance that will happen game canon-wise.

Model A obviously has the Trans-on ability like Model X has the double rock-on ability.

(Rule: Any and all double rock-ons are with Model X ONLY! So no Model ZA/AZ, HL, etc)

The only difference between a double rock-on and a solo rock on is that (take Model Hx for example) Model H by itself has a set of small jet wings while Model Hx has huge thrusters. Model H cannot use the OIS (Overdrive Invoke System) unlike it's double rock-on. This applies to Models L/Lx, F/Fx, and P/Px (Model Ox I'm not entirely sure since it was mean't to be an extra).

The abilities available only to the solo rock-on users are:

Model Z: Charge Slash + Fission, Ground Stab, the thing Copy X does when he flies and charges at you.
Model H: Summon Electrical Rotators          "Dodge this"
Model F: Split/Exploding Shot                    "Good bye!"
Model L: Ice Whirlpool                              "Having fun?"
Model P: Multiple Projection                       "Lock on! - Lock on!"
Model A: Giga Crush                                 " *shout out* "

In addition to making other Live Metals useable Model X also allows the user to Overdrive, with the exception of Model X solo (not a double rock-on), and Model Z (mysterious). It is already obvious that the four Guardians were created using X's DNA therfore the reason why the double rock-on versions look alot more like their originators than their solo rock-on versions. Regardless of apearance or Overdrive abilities the solo rock-on and the double rock-on versons of the Live Metals both basically have the same general abilities and so this topic comes up.

'Model Z has a buster because Model Zx has a buster, clear and simple.'

Everyone knows that Model Zx's buster capabilities come from Model X and aside from that, has no Overdrive system. That is exactly the problem. Every double rock-on that was introduced to the story line (including Model Ox, God forbid it to be part of the actual story line) has an Overdrive and the same basic attacks as their solo rock-on forms, so why does Model Zx have totally different attacks than Model Z (besides Skull Crush and Charge Slash)?

Model Z is a mysterious Live Metal with properties way different than others. It's double rock-on form is different from its solo rock-on and by itself put Models H, F, L, and P under submission (by strengthening the will of the Live Metals I suppose). What I'm trying to say is that Model Z is not like the others, not as Model X and Model A are different but it's more complicated than the rest. What is it about Model Z that makes it different (read the above) and why is that?

Either that or Model Z has a buster, clear and simple. Any ideas? = )

(PS: Sorry If I got the names of the attacks wrong Dx )
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Offline Zan

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Re: Talk about Live Metals
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2008, 12:47:51 PM »
If there's any reason why the Double Rock On designs are much closer to the original Big4, it's because they were designed first. Much like Model ZX resembles Zero more than Model Z because it's pretty much the one you'll be seeing the most.

As for Overdrive, Model V has exhibited the same ability without the need for X. If anything I'd say that the singular models are fully capable of it, except for the fact that Trans On diminishes the capabilities of a model whereas Double Rock On enhances it. So, the ones that would be capable of it are the real users of the Livemetal, not user of the copied forms.

Model Z's buster is a special case, though. Zero might have originally had an arm-mounted buster, but he lost it.... somehow. He later acquired a bustergun. Because the weapon isn't originally his, the data for Model Z doesn't entirely retain it. Furthermore, the charging ability of the gun comes from the Z-saber inserted into the bustergun. But the Z-saber's charge ability comes from Rock Buster Mk17 technology (X-buster), which it was upgraded with. So it's not entirely unnatural for X's Double Rock On to alter the Model Z's Z-saber into a ZX-Saber which can transform into the ZX-Buster and back. But really, the same as for the other 4 (X DNA + those made from X's DNA), it's merely an overly technical explanation for the simple fact that Model X enhances the abilities of singular models to draw out further power.

From a creator's standpoint, it means Giro's Model Z is much more of a throwback to the X-series Zero of Xtreme2, X4, X7, X8 and XCM. Whereas Model ZX is a means to incorporate the ZERO-series gameplay in a primary model.

Offline Robert Oakes

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Re: Talk about Live Metals
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2008, 02:00:27 PM »
As for Overdrive, Model V has exhibited the same ability without the need for X. If anything I'd say that the singular models are fully capable of it, except for the fact that Trans On diminishes the capabilities of a model whereas Double Rock On enhances it. So, the ones that would be capable of it are the real users of the Livemetal, not user of the copied forms.

There is a problem with that hypothesis since the original Model ZX also lacks OIS. I personally believe that Inti limited Model ZX for the sake of balanced gameplay. Giving OIS to Model ZX could've made it too powerful, resulting in a less challenging game. I would've preferred Inti giving Model ZX its full potential though; after all, Model ZX was conceptualized as the most powerful combination, even gaining the title of "Ultimate Rockman" before ZX Gigamix changed that idea. Without gameplay concerns, the Rockman ZX manga has taken creative liberties with Model ZX, with a particular scene of Vent powering up the ZX Saber to gigantic proportions as an ultimate attack.

I'm guessing that gameplay is also why the A-Trans versions of the other Mega Men tend to lack their most powerful attacks. They're powerful, but not practical since they're restrained to a limited area. They wouldn't be very useful outside a boss's room, for example.

Offline Zan

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Re: Talk about Live Metals
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2008, 02:29:40 PM »
Quote
There is a problem with that hypothesis since the original Model ZX also lacks OIS.

I was saying the original 4 would have Overdrive, just as much as their Double forms would have. That's not to say that Model Z, ZX and X would have Overdrive. The point of the Overdrive Invoke System is to switch in an out of elemental attacks and also empower the primary attacks. In the case of X and Zero, the ability to empower them is very rare, either Limitless Potential suddenly at work or the Overdrive item from the X-series. For the likes of evil superpowers like Model O and Model V however, it's pretty much standard. For the 4, it's only natural with their elemental affiliation.

Of course, all of that is just game balance at work as well. X and Zero being the primary player characters would rarely get Model OX's arsenal for instance.

Offline MassKiller1

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Re: Talk about Live Metals
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2008, 08:44:32 PM »
From a creator's standpoint, it means Giro's Model Z is much more of a throwback to the X-series Zero of Xtreme2, X4, X7, X8 and XCM. Whereas Model ZX is a means to incorporate the ZERO-series gameplay in a primary model.

Same thing with Model X since he has the double charge shot ability like in X2 and possibly X3.

If there's any reason why the Double Rock On designs are much closer to the original Big4, it's because they were designed first. Much like Model ZX resembles Zero more than Model Z because it's pretty much the one you'll be seeing the most.

Personally I thought of Model Z itself being a special case rather than just its buster abilities. Remember that although Model Z is to incorporate the X-Series Zero it is a fact that the model was based on the Zero from the Zero-Series (fact from the game) in which he used (according to RMZ3) a copy body designed like his original except the copy was a reploid body (meaning it had some DNA having had blueprints from X), it had X's DNA and there you have Model Zx's double rock-on looking more like the Zero we know. The same thing applies to the Big Four. Their double rock-on forms look more like the 4 Guardians than their solo rock-on because they are using Model X and the 4 Guardians were created from the original X. Simple explanation: Models look more like their original reploid designs because they double rock-on using Model X.

Models X, Zx/Z, and A aren't able to use Overdrive because they would be too bad ass.  : 3
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Offline Flame

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Re: Talk about Live Metals
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2008, 09:14:29 PM »
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except the copy was a reploid body (meaning it had some DNA having had blueprints from X)
by that time both X and Zero's systems had been finally fully deciphered. especially if they were able to make a near perfect copy of both Zero's original body, and later, of X as a whole. if its BASED off of Zero's original body, then it isnt a reploid. the same way that Technically the big 4 arnt reploids, but X bioroids, if I recall correctly. what it WOULDNT have, in any case, is Zeros original DNA. its an exact copy of Zero's original body, minus the connection with the Virus.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline MassKiller1

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Re: Talk about Live Metals
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2008, 09:20:29 PM »
I don't know about that man. People from the Zero Series started calling his the "Legendary Reploid Hero" so maybe you're wrong and somehow the Copy Zero body is both or you're right and everyone from the Zero Series is over assuming.
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Offline Zan

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Re: Talk about Live Metals
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2008, 01:36:18 AM »
Zero and X have been called Reploid ever Cain coined the term and the definition of a Reploid has NOTHING to do with being based on X, the definition has EVERYTHING to do with having human-like mental capabilities.

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the big 4 arnt reploids, but X bioroids, i

Them being X-bioroids does not exclude them under the definition of Reploid.

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a copy body designed like his original except the copy was a reploid body (meaning it had some DNA having had blueprints from X), it had X's DNA and there you have Model Zx's double rock-on looking more like the Zero we know. The same thing applies to the Big Four. Their double rock-on forms look more like the 4 Guardians than their solo rock-on because they are using Model X and the 4 Guardians were created from the original X. Simple explanation: Models look more like their original reploid designs because they double rock-on using Model X.

Why would adding X's DNA to the equation suddenly make them look more like themselves? Their own DNA data is enough for them to appear like themselves. X's DNA would make them look more like X, not the other way around. Even worse for Zero, who has a copy of his original body, the very definition of a copy doesn't allow such huge changes as suddenly adding in X's DNA to the mix. All aspects of X that are in Zero are those he had from his very creation by Wily, and the upgrade of the Z-saber.

Really, the appearance of the models is all thanks to the designer and the game making process. Because they already made the double rock on designs so close to the original, they had to deviate for ZXA. Because they already made ZX so close to the original, they had to deviate for Z.

Within the plot, it's Ciel that designed them, blame her for the quirkiness that is the design differences of the singular models versus the double rock ons. The design is after all of very little importance to the actual abilities, so she could do as she please. Abilities on the other hand are the aspects that are rooted in experience and DNA, Model ZX's ZX-buster is an ability and not just a design element. Some of those are also rooted in the design, but not all.

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is Zeros original DNA. its an exact copy of Zero's original body, minus the connection with the Virus.

It's a copy of the original, why would it lose its connection the Virus? The body has as much potential as the original and does not react negatively to Dark Elf's presence. Zero's Virus connectivity is exactly why Vile chose Zero as his messiah to wield Dark Elf. All things considered, I'd say that's a pretty baseless assumption and as a matter of fact, the opposite seems to be sooner true; Zero's connection with the Virus is wholly in tact, that is, if you ignore the inconvenience that is the Virus being gone from the world.

Offline Galappan

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Re: Talk about Live Metals
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2008, 02:27:49 AM »
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Model Z is a mysterious Live Metal with properties way different than others.
Yeah. I still believe that Ciel made Model Z special since She has special/personal bond with it.

Model Zx lacking O.I.S is way powerful enough that it can handle & destroy almost everything. Minus the Air & Water mobility it's still a very Destructive Model...than Ox.

Offline Flame

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Re: Talk about Live Metals
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2008, 05:40:37 AM »
I figured that they would not have copied that, as its a pretty big risk... though then again, no virus. but even then, he wouldnt need it then.
also, isnt his immunity to Darkelf more a matter of his strong mind/will/whatever have you other than his body? X is also immune, and he does not have a physical body.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Robert Oakes

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Re: Talk about Live Metals
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2008, 12:14:06 PM »
I figured that they would not have copied that, as its a pretty big risk... though then again, no virus. but even then, he wouldnt need it then.

It's a far greater risk to create a new body for Zero lacking the viral invulnerability from the original, since it would've been susceptible to the Sigma Virus or any simiar viruses which could've been developed in the future.

also, isnt his immunity to Darkelf more a matter of his strong mind/will/whatever have you other than his body? X is also immune, and he does not have a physical body.

The Dark Elf was being used to control the Reploids. Since X had become a Cyber-Elf himself, he was out of the Dark Elf's reach, not to mention that he had the ability to suppress the Dark Elf's power. Zero's immunity to the Dark Elf is a result of the latter being created from samples of the Sigma Virus, which doesn't affect Zero normally. This also serves as indication that Zero's copy body has similar, if not the same properties from the original.

I was saying the original 4 would have Overdrive, just as much as their Double forms would have. That's not to say that Model Z, ZX and X would have Overdrive. The point of the Overdrive Invoke System is to switch in an out of elemental attacks and also empower the primary attacks. In the case of X and Zero, the ability to empower them is very rare, either Limitless Potential suddenly at work or the Overdrive item from the X-series. For the likes of evil superpowers like Model O and Model V however, it's pretty much standard. For the 4, it's only natural with their elemental affiliation.

Ignoring the fact that Model P has no elemental attributes, I personally believe that OIS is an effect from Model X boosting the power of the originals, since it's already been established in ZX that a Double Megamerge draws greater power. The OIS is so far the best way to convey that from a gameplay standpoint. And as you said yourself, Model O and Model W are special cases.

That said, I still would like Inti to at least give Model ZX an ultimate attack (assuming it'll somehow return in the next game).

Offline Flame

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Re: Talk about Live Metals
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2008, 07:46:46 PM »
ZX3. model ZX. Giga attack or bust.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

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Re: Talk about Live Metals
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2008, 09:56:15 PM »
The abilities available only to the solo rock-on users are:
May I point that comparing boss form attacks to player form attacks rarely gets anywhere; see X5.  Since A-Trans is a direct copy, there's no reason it should be lacking attacks.  It doesn't lack any of Model ZX's (although Aile's Fission doesn't toss up as many rocks, but that and the consumption of biometal energy are the only differences).  But when you limit a boss's attacks to those that are designed for a player's gameplay balance, it makes a pattern-based CPU ridiculously easy to fight.  And Model ZX is the perfect example of that.

Why would adding X's DNA to the equation suddenly make them look more like themselves? Their own DNA data is enough for them to appear like themselves. X's DNA would make them look more like X, not the other way around. Even worse for Zero, who has a copy of his original body, the very definition of a copy doesn't allow such huge changes as suddenly adding in X's DNA to the mix. All aspects of X that are in Zero are those he had from his very creation by Wily, and the upgrade of the Z-saber.

Really, the appearance of the models is all thanks to the designer and the game making process. Because they already made the double rock on designs so close to the original, they had to deviate for ZXA. Because they already made ZX so close to the original, they had to deviate for Z.
What statement do we have to say that Inticreates designed Model ZX before they did Model Z?

Although this is PURELY speculation, I'd always attributed that to Model X enabling otherwise dormant data within the other Biometal.  The ZX Buster is what influenced my thinking there.  The pistol is an obvious reference to Zero, since X never used one, but Model Z doesn't have it.

Model Zx lacking O.I.S is way powerful enough that it can handle & destroy almost everything. Minus the Air & Water mobility it's still a very Destructive Model...than Ox.
Almost, but not quite.  Even when you ignore OIS, Model ZX's only upper hand is the fact that the max charge buster is a 3-shot spiral, which annihilates stage enemies but makes no difference against bosses.  Model OX, on the other hand, has a more powerful low-charge buster, longer saber range, and a far more powerful charged saber (OX's is 16; ZX's is 12).

The Dark Elf was being used to control the Reploids. Since X had become a Cyber-Elf himself, he was out of the Dark Elf's reach, not to mention that he had the ability to suppress the Dark Elf's power. Zero's immunity to the Dark Elf is a result of the latter being created from samples of the Sigma Virus, which doesn't affect Zero normally. This also serves as indication that Zero's copy body has similar, if not the same properties from the original.
As I recall, Telos indicates that the Big Four are immune to the "broad" control (despite Harpuia succumbing to the Baby Elves directly in Z2), so one would think that X is as well.  Most do not believe the Sigma Virus affects him normally, either.

Personally, I think there was a reason Zero mentioned himself and X during Z3's dialogue the way he did.  The vibe I got was that they were trying to show how X is special along the same lines as Zero, but since he happens to be disembodied, it wasn't really applicable to him anyway.

May I also say that I think you hit the nail on the head with Model ZX and gameplay earlier.  I maintain that Model OX is really what ZX should be if not for game balance.  And seeings how their differences are mostly separated by OIS, I really don't see what would be wrong with a late-game upgrade.

Although, to be honest, if Inticreates hopes to maintain game balance while returning to Model X as the starter (which is what we SHOULD be seeing, looking at ZXA's ending), then I think they need to re-think their damage system altogether.  They have a much stronger benefit to charged shots over rapid-fire than X-series games did, and that's why Model X's double-charge is so delightfully broken.  I'd rather see them change the formula than nerf the abilities.

Quote
Ignoring the fact that Model P has no elemental attributes, I personally believe that OIS is an effect from Model X boosting the power of the originals, since it's already been established in ZX that a Double Megamerge draws greater power. The OIS is so far the best way to convey that from a gameplay standpoint. And as you said yourself, Model O and Model W are special cases.
That and generally shorter charge times and greater attack variety.  Besides Model F none of the Big Four metals have a low-level charge attack when not paired with X.

ZX3. model ZX. Giga attack or bust.
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Offline Align

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Re: Talk about Live Metals
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2008, 02:00:00 AM »
Although, to be honest, if Inticreates hopes to maintain game balance while returning to Model X as the starter (which is what we SHOULD be seeing, looking at ZXA's ending), then I think they need to re-think their damage system altogether.  They have a much stronger benefit to charged shots over rapid-fire than X-series games did, and that's why Model X's double-charge is so delightfully broken.
You sure? X2 was the only one with a straightforward double shot that I can remember, and though it was ages since I played X2, people here often speak fondly of how much it raped even back then.

Offline Flame

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Re: Talk about Live Metals
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2008, 02:02:28 AM »
X2 WAS the only one with a straight forward Double shot. unless you want to count Stock charge from X4... but that was different. X3 had that weird overlapping shot.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Galappan

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Re: Talk about Live Metals
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2008, 04:37:35 AM »
The thing about Ox that I often used it besides having fun is that there so many things going on in that Model, so many attacks that it lessens my concentration. Though The Ice Crescents is pretty neat. *hands down* That's also why among the Big 4 Model I'm more at ease with Lx. But that's just me I guess.  :\

It went quite out topic. Sorry...

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Re: Talk about Live Metals
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2008, 06:18:52 AM »
I love OX for the double charge + saber wave combo, the *ONLY* time it has been done properly in the player's hands (X3's crapass cross-charge kinda kills the atmosphere, even if the saber wave strength is insanity).  All three hits break a boss's damage barrier, too (although if you want to be really evil you would get in close and combo-slash after the buster shots).  Between that and limitless (if underpowered) Earth Gaizers, the form is every X2 Zero fan's wet dream.  All it's missing is proper dash saber attack to ram some small-fry into a wall.

You sure? X2 was the only one with a straightforward double shot that I can remember, and though it was ages since I played X2, people here often speak fondly of how much it raped even back then.
Yeah, but a standard ZX boss has twice as much HP as X-series bosses, despite the fact that uncharged shots do the same damage in either series (Xtremes not withstanding).  The X2 double-charge didn't work by the same mechanics as ZX's either, each shot of the spiral broke the damage barrier for one point individually, adding up to greater total damage than the first shot (unless you only grazed the boss with the second, of course).  In ZX, only one shot of the spiral counts on a boss.

The ZX double-charge kills a standard boss after 6 uses.  X2's Double charge was almost as broken, doing the same in 6 1/2 (1st shot of the 7th use kills).  If we used X-series charged shot strength, and had the second shot equal the first on a boss instead of surpassing it, it would then take 8 double charges to bring down a 32-HP boss, which is the same as the number of charged Z-Saber hits it takes to bring down a standard 64-HP boss in Z1-3 (Z4 was weakened, and ZX weakened a second time).  That, I think, would be acceptable.  Gauge the game's other attacks accordingly, and we could axe the need to use double bars as a standard (unless you want the difficulty rammed up; this would be an excellent way to do so without having to strip the player of the game's power-ups and abilities as Inticreates seems to insist on doing).  At the same time rapid-fire shots wouldn't be completely worthless anymore.

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