Author Topic: Burner Man is a cyborg  (Read 4844 times)

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Offline Karasai♪

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2012, 09:56:38 PM »
I think due to King tricking him about a bomb in his body, he went insane in paranoia

Offline Flame

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2012, 10:03:59 PM »
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However, it is not explicitly stated in MM&B that he has any idea if King's invasion is backed by Dr. Wily. The whole deceit trick may have been done to death, but Mega Man does have a tendency to fall for it.
You really can't ever be too sure. Its the way it usually turns out, but you cannot be entirely sure Wily IS behind it, until it is revealed. A random Robot comes out of nowhere, claiming to want to free robots and all that jazz, and supposedly attacked not only the Robot museum, but kicked Wily out of his own lab, and that was a pretty unusual, interesting plan Wily made.

I chalk up Burner man's weakness to simply game design. They created this ice block Rock can use as a platform since he cannot double jump or use the Rush adapter. So how do they incorporate it to the fire boss as a weakness? Well, why not have it push the boss into spikes? Burnerman cringes and kind of locks up at the block because he's fire and it's ice, and as a result, is pushed into spikes, which do the actual damage.

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In the end, he does wind up defeating him. And he does explode. But mind you, I did say just the head was human, right? There are plenty of fictional cyborgs that can survive with only a brain, and since he comes back in the Fortress levels, perhaps his head was found and he was rebuilt?
And Rock then kills him again.

I think you are just looking far too deeply into this. just because he is the only Human faced Robot master does not automatically make him a cyborg. Other Robot masters from other games have quirky weaknesses too, and or facial expressions, that doesnt make them cyborgs.
And again, the Classic series never delved into that kind of technology. It's far too serious a concept for the scope of Classic, which is googly eyed robots fighting other googly eyed robots, with a balding Einstein expy mad scientist as the ever foiled villain. X which is far more serious, only FLIRTED with the idea, with Serges and Isoc, with Wily somehow still being around, "brought back by the virus". Only the Zero series ever actually played it straight with Weil, and took him 3 of the 4 games to show up.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Ladd Spencer

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2012, 10:07:22 PM »
Where the [tornado fang] did you get a 0th Law from? The 1st Law covers the good of the whole.

Also, everyone seems to have missed the part where I pointed out Asimov writing about the inadequacies of the applications of the laws.

Also, you guys know that Mega Man as a universe does not employ the Three Laws? That's just Mega Man X' English translation IIRC.

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Offline The Great Gonzo

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2012, 10:54:09 PM »
Where the [tornado fang] did you get a 0th Law from? The 1st Law covers the good of the whole.

I believe Asimov himself came up with the 0th Law? And just because the Laws turned out to be a pain in the ass didn't stop Capcom from trying to establish a version of them in MM (perhaps the inflexibility of the original Laws is why the MM version is so vague).

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Also, you guys know that Mega Man as a universe does not employ the Three Laws? That's just Mega Man X' English translation IIRC.

The guff about Laws is also in the JP version of MMX1; it's written in English in both versions.

I don't think they're Asmivion Laws for reasons Flame just talked about. Personally, anything that reduces the robot characters to non-entities ("they did/didn't do this because of poorly-defined robot laws, not because they wanted/didn't want or have to") simply doesn't belong in Classic. It doesn't belong anywhere, but in the context of MM, Classic is the least suited to Magic Asimov Asspulls due to its tone.

Offline Flame

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2012, 11:06:52 PM »
They do exist in the Mega Man world, just they dont seem to be actually hardcoded into Robots brains. Just more of a general rule of thumb, a sort of set of "commandments" for Robots.

After all, most people do the [parasitic bomb] the 10 commandments say not to do, right? All because the set of rules exists, doesn't mean Robots are forced to follow them.

When Light says he fears X could break the first rule, he wasnt talking as if robots are usually bound by them, he just fears X would break the rule. Like me saying I fear my kid breaks the commandment "Thou shalt not kill." Yknow, when my kid is also years more advanced than any other living being and could become an unstoppable force if he went rogue.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline The Great Gonzo

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2012, 11:40:52 PM »
They do exist in the Mega Man world, just they dont seem to be actually hardcoded into Robots brains.

Well, I was specifically referring to the internally-enforced variety (which "Asmovian laws" seem to be by definition?).


This thread makes me wonder about who else in the MM series someone has claimed was a cyborg. Ones I currently know of are Megaman (lots of US publications described him as being at least partially human) and Wily (he survived getting squashed at the end of MM3 and apparently caught Roboenza in 10, though I'm fairly certain it was just a normal cold).

Offline Gaia

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2012, 01:43:38 AM »
It was not a cold in MM10's ending, Mega Man points out in the US release is that he had a mild fever (his sprite also showed that he turned red and steam came out, traits not normally shown in colds). Wily survived getting squashed in MM3 due to his INSANE amount of LUK he has. Remember, he's also an ebil scientist.

If Burner Man's a cyborg an Iris a human, what makes Kalinka? She apparently survived to 21XX in Xover into her sweet 16 apparently, but wouldn't that make her 20 or something if humans aged normally in the series? Ciel is an altered human herself, after all (able to recreate X at a young age, being able to create a substitute energy in her teenage years, and other feats).
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Offline Zan

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2012, 02:29:20 AM »
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She apparently survived to 21XX in Xover into her sweet 16 apparently, but wouldn't that make her 20 or something if humans aged normally in the series?

OVER-1 was made by Right and Cossack, 20XX.

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Ciel is an altered human herself, after all

Had her genes altered from birth, and is a prodigy among those.

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Also, non canon cameos to the universe for sure, but in MvC 1,2 and TvC, Rock and Roll have absolutely no problem fighting Human characters.

In the OVA-series, Roll breaks the first law by molesting Wily.

And in Megamix, Ringman is ensured to follow the rules of robotics by making his attacks weaker. His restrictions are removed for his battle against Rock. Contrasting that, Blues' weird A.I. power system thingamob grants him the potential to break the rules.

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-It says right in his profile that King told him to burn down forests, otherwise a bomb implanted inside him will explode (whether King's lying or not, Burner Man's not in any position to question the threat). Which begs the question: what the HELL does King, or more importantly, Dr. Wily, need to do this for? Burner Man could easily be programmed to just burn stuff, rather than them having to resort to this measure. And mind you, we're not in the reploid era yet, so...

King, being the leader of a revolt against the human race for enslaving robots, would not reprogram one of his kind. Is that not obvious? He had to resort to different means to have Burner Man act as he did. Besides, King leads the ROBOT army, not the robot and one cyborg army.

Offline Gaia

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2012, 02:50:43 AM »
OVER-1 was made by Right and Cossack, 20XX.

Why does this seem very vauge? Is it because the lack of visible birthdates among doctors?

Had her genes altered from, birth, and is a prodigy among those.

How does one alter sperm? Is it like in some shows and movies where people go into the body (in Ciel's case her mom's womb) and alter [parasitic bomb] from there (One show even has a sperm slaughterfest)? Must be some freaky [parasitic bomb]. Then again we have reploids go birds n' bees in our fanfics.

In the OVA-series, Roll breaks the first law by molesting Wily.

Rrrrrrrrrreally now?   [eyebrow]
Workshop/DA/YT/Photobucket なにかんがえてるの!?
So its about ass now huh? EVEN THE ASS HAS 'EXCEEDED'!

One mention of LEGENDS and everyone goes batshit.  :\

Yep, every time when someone mentions that game people get energized for an apparent reason whatsoever. It's like this everywhere else, trust me.

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Offline Joseph Collins

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2012, 04:52:47 AM »
In the OVA-series, Roll breaks the first law by molesting Wily.
I... what?  Not my precious Roll-chan!  T_T

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Offline VixyNyan

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2012, 05:41:59 AM »
In the OVA-series, Roll breaks the first law by molesting Wily.

v this



oh wow, 9/11 2009, who would've known? ^^;
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Offline Sakura Leic

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2012, 05:46:54 AM »
Whoa forgot about that, then again I didn't see the entire episode.
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Offline Align

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2012, 06:47:25 PM »
How does one alter sperm? Is it like in some shows and movies where people go into the body (in Ciel's case her mom's womb) and alter [parasitic bomb] from there (One show even has a sperm slaughterfest)? Must be some freaky [parasitic bomb]. Then again we have reploids go birds n' bees in our fanfics.
Geneering would have to happen after the egg is fertilized, if you want the changes to definitely stick. Or of course you could just grow a clone from an unfertilized egg - either way, you don't have to bother with the sperm.

Anyway, 0th law alone would allow Megaman to attack Wily, should it become necessary. It has priority over the first, just like the first has over the 2nd and 2nd over 3rd.
Ultimately the laws aren't really relevant in the Megaman series. They could be enforced in the good robots, or not, and we wouldn't be able to tell. Well, assuming molesting doesn't count as harm...

Offline Ladd Spencer

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2012, 03:45:55 AM »
I believe Asimov himself came up with the 0th Law? And just because the Laws turned out to be a pain in the ass didn't stop Capcom from trying to establish a version of them in MM (perhaps the inflexibility of the original Laws is why the MM version is so vague).
They do exist in the Mega Man world, just they dont seem to be actually hardcoded into Robots brains. Just more of a general rule of thumb, a sort of set of "commandments" for Robots.

When Light says he fears X could break the first rule, he wasnt talking as if robots are usually bound by them, he just fears X would break the rule. Like me saying I fear my kid breaks the commandment "Thou shalt not kill." Yknow, when my kid is also years more advanced than any other living being and could become an unstoppable force if he went rogue.
Well, I was specifically referring to the internally-enforced variety (which "Asmovian laws" seem to be by definition?).
The laws aren't that inflexible. I've only read I, Robot, but some crazy [parasitic bomb] happens in that. I've never heard of the 0th Law though. The Laws usually come up in a puzzle solving sense, where they need the robot to do something but it is incapable of such, or in a comparison of priority, where a strong command with little intonation of loss of life causes a parallel between 1 and 2. Other such parellels occur, where people are only so relatively in danger, but the robot is in danger constantly, where the robot will run in circles, due to limitations on its sensors.

After all, most people do the [parasitic bomb] the 10 commandments say not to do, right? All because the set of rules exists, doesn't mean Robots are forced to follow them.
Kind of but it's more a matter of how you look at it. A mind-reading robot was unable to lie in any case where the person's feelings would be hurt, in fact actually lying to them for their benefit. Is imprisonment harm? Questions like that come to mind.

The guff about Laws is also in the JP version of MMX1; it's written in English in both versions.
Is it? Beats me. I heard an ultra nerd say that once. Zan, we need your awesomeness on this.

I don't think they're Asmivion Laws for reasons Flame just talked about. Personally, anything that reduces the robot characters to non-entities ("they did/didn't do this because of poorly-defined robot laws, not because they wanted/didn't want or have to") simply doesn't belong in Classic. It doesn't belong anywhere, but in the context of MM, Classic is the least suited to Magic Asimov Asspulls due to its tone.
The Laws have a lot more leeway than you would think. Read the man; it's [tornado fang]ing cool as [parasitic bomb].

This thread makes me wonder about who else in the MM series someone has claimed was a cyborg. Ones I currently know of are Megaman (lots of US publications described him as being at least partially human) and Wily (he survived getting squashed at the end of MM3 and apparently caught Roboenza in 10, though I'm fairly certain it was just a normal cold).
Wily is by either a brain in a robot body or some sort of brain backed-up dealy, because he definitely appears several times in X.

In the OVA-series, Roll breaks the first law by molesting Wily.
Well, assuming molesting doesn't count as harm...
That does not compute as harm.

King, being the leader of a revolt against the human race for enslaving robots, would not reprogram one of his kind. Is that not obvious? He had to resort to different means to have Burner Man act as he did. Besides, King leads the ROBOT army, not the robot and one cyborg army.
This is a great answer.

oh wow, 9/11 2009, who would've known? ^^;
Worst nickname for a catastrophe ever.

Geneering would have to happen after the egg is fertilized, if you want the changes to definitely stick. Or of course you could just grow a clone from an unfertilized egg - either way, you don't have to bother with the sperm.
Is it spelt Dolly or Dollie? That cloned sheep. They put the [parasitic bomb] in the embryo after the fact. And essentially aborted the test subject. Interesting morality there.

Anyway, 0th law alone would allow Megaman to attack Wily, should it become necessary. It has priority over the first, just like the first has over the 2nd and 2nd over 3rd.
This 0th Law really sounds made up to me, like something that spread across the Internet like Zero killing everybody.

They could be enforced in the good robots, or not, and we wouldn't be able to tell.
There's a whole thing in I, Robot about a robot serving better as a prosecutor or mayor even. At one point it becomes the Coordinator of the world.

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Offline Zan

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2012, 11:50:56 AM »
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This 0th Law really sounds made up to me, like something that spread across the Internet like Zero killing everybody.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robots_and_Empire

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The laws aren't that inflexible.

Asimov isn't Rockman, is the main point. While a similar concept, the implementation is entirely different to allow robots a greater semblance of free will. It means that robots, combining independent thought and reasoning with a set conscience, should not be killing people. These robots are kept in line by logic, morality, and sometimes by powering down their capabilities.

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Is it? Beats me. I heard an ultra nerd say that once. Zan, we need your awesomeness on this.

It is. RockmanX, the game, has English text with Japanese subs for that one scene. One of those nods that Dr. Right actually is american.

This is what it says in Japanese:

“X” is a new type of robot with more complex, human-like mental capabilities. However, these capabilities are also extremely dangerous. If “X,” of his own volition, ever broke the basic law of robotics, “A robot must not injure a human,” likely nothing could stop him, and the results would be fearsome.

If I had 30 years, it would be possible to confirm his safety. However, my life will not last that long, and there is no one to whom I can entrust my research. Therefore I will seal him in this capsule. This capsule will test his internal structure for me until his safety is confirmed. Until then, please do not open the capsule.

“X” is laden with both unlimited possibility and unlimited danger. I just hope it turns out for the best.

20XX 9/18 Thomas Light


And this is the expanded version from the manual:

“X” presents many problems inconceivable in existing robots. There is a danger he may worry over or question even the absolute requirement for robots, “Do not harm a human.”

The act of worrying in “X” marks a new epoch in robotics and is the first time this experiment has succeeded, but if it extends to matters that by their nature must not be questioned, it would be disastrous. In the worst case, if a robot were to harm humans deliberately, humankind would tremble with fear the like of which was unknown even in the days of the “Dr. Wily” incidents…

I conclude that “X” is an extremely dangerous being. If I am to send “X” out into the world, he must have a verification period of 30 years at the least. However, I do not have that long to live, and regrettably there is no one who understands all my research to carry it on for me.

Therefore I seal “X” here. If by some chance there is someone who discovers this capsule, as long as “X’s” thinking has not been fully analyzed, please leave him untouched. “X” is a robot laden with both unlimited possibility and unlimited danger…

Sep. 18 AD20XX
T. Right


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That does not compute as harm.

It sure looked painful.

Offline Melsurigan

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2012, 04:42:26 AM »
You guys have some very good arguments, though there is one thing that bothers me about what some of you said:


The Classic series not being advanced enough for cyborg technology.


Do bear in mind that this is a game about a tiny little robot boy who has a weapon that can basically mimic powers with the help of a computer chip. That means that it consists of a certain kind of matter than can transform into different kinds of stuff, which is evident by having ammo pickups refill any weapon that Mega Man has on him at that moment. And let's not forget the ability to create acme-style bombs from thin air, artificial gravity reversal, and the power to stop time.


In comparison to the things mentioned above, cyborg technology could very well exist. It doesn't necessarily have to be perfect, but the Classic series leaves a lot open for interpretation compared to the rest of the Mega Man franchise. I apologize if I'm overthinking this, but I do enjoy a good discussion.



(BTW, I've read this topic and somebody mentioned some crap about Iris being a full human. Where, pray tell, is that article?)

Offline Sakura Leic

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2012, 04:56:08 AM »
(BTW, I've read this topic and somebody mentioned some crap about Iris being a full human. Where, pray tell, is that article?)
It wasn't a article per say so much that it was this one guy on the Megaman Network or something said it in one of their articles, and I think it had nothing to do with the article, and people tried to tell him that it's not true but he was stubborn about it.  I think Hypershell may remember where it was, since he's a member of other Megaman related places while I'm not.
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Offline Ladd Spencer

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2012, 05:41:50 AM »
It's impossible because Iris and Colonel are two halves of one.

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Offline Sakura Leic

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2012, 06:43:03 AM »
Found it, a guy named Omar was the one who started it.  It was when Iris was revealed to be in Project X Zone.

http://www.themmnetwork.com/2012/09/18/iris-joining-the-hunters-in-project-x-zone/comment-page-1/#comments
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Offline The Great Gonzo

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2012, 01:35:37 PM »
The Classic series not being advanced enough for cyborg technology.

Well, it's kinda hard to prove that the technology for it existed in 20XX when no canonical cyborgs show up until ZERO. Plus, there's quite a bit of tech in Classic that has to be chalked up to a lack of realistic physics (or something like that).

(As for human!Iris, at least Omar had some evidence to back it up. Granted, the source books directly contradict all of it, but I'm fairly certain he didn't know that until someone on TMMN pointed it out)