Author Topic: Burner Man is a cyborg  (Read 4234 times)

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Offline Melsurigan

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Burner Man is a cyborg
« on: October 28, 2012, 04:52:56 AM »
I've been pondering this for awhile, but it kind of makes sense that Burner Man from MM&B would be a cyborg, or at least a human brain in a robot body. I don't know if it's a coincidence or not, but it explains a lot about the character. Just hear me out:

-It says right in his profile that King told him to burn down forests, otherwise a bomb implanted inside him will explode (whether King's lying or not, Burner Man's not in any position to question the threat). Which begs the question: what the HELL does King, or more importantly, Dr. Wily, need to do this for? Burner Man could easily be programmed to just burn stuff, rather than them having to resort to this measure. And mind you, we're not in the reploid era yet, so...

   The best answer? There's a human brain in that robotic body. Apparently he has a skill-set or mentality that is useful to them somehow, but the only way they can get him to follow their orders is by force. There's always the possibility that he is genuinely insane, but that makes it all the more important that they keep his rage directed towards their enemies. Also, considering the human brain, he cannot take the chance that the self-destruct threat is a bluff.

-He is insanely difficult to fight, especially with Mega Man (Bass is this game's "easy mode", with all due respect).

   Why, that would be the First Rule of Robotics in place, here. Mega Man realizes he has to be careful not to shoot Burner Man's head, due to the human brain and all, but because the guy is so fast he forces the blue bomber to be too cautious for his own good.
   There's also the possibility that Burner Man is just extemely clever, considering he uses bear-traps and constant ramming with his fire-helmet to make up for his Wave Burner's short range. But that's just the sort of creativity expected from a human.

-His weakness is the Ice Wall. However, the weapon has to be used carefully, with timing involed on Mega Man's part that borders on frustrating.

   It's the quicket way around the First Rule; for Mega Man to beat a cyborg, he has to do so indirectly. The Ice Wall has to hit Burner Man when he's either unprepared or completely unaware. By the time it gets momentum and hits him, it is too late to stop it and Burner Man gets pushed into the spikes. Mega Man runs too slow to save him, as well, making it a perfect way to get around his programming-induced hesitation. It isn't his "weakness", par say, but an ingenious way to defeat him.

-He's the only robot master in the game with a fully human face. Also, he is one of the only pre-X robot masters with a human face to ever show visible, realistic facial expressions in-game.

   Perhaps a nod to his humanity? While a lot of robot masters show "emotion" when they get hit with their weakness, most of the time they just look super-wacky and stand there while getting hit. Burner Man, on the other hand, looks convincingly surprised when the ice wall hits him successfully, and is grinning the entire time when fighting you. Very dynamic facial expressions, no? Similar to a human.


Maybe someone can counter me, but personally I think the idea is reasonable.

Offline The Great Gonzo

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2012, 05:12:29 AM »
Quote
Burner Man could easily be programmed to just burn stuff, rather than them having to resort to this measure. And mind you, we're not in the reploid era yet, so...

The amount of free will/humanity that Classic-era robots have seems to depend entirely on its convenience to the plot. (See: Megaman and Roll's inexplicably sociopathic non-reaction to expiration dates in MM9) So the superfluous bomb is probably just a consequence of inconsistency.

That, or King didn't like the idea of reprogramming...but picked an alternative that wasn't much better. King was kind of a dick prior to the end of the game.

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He is insanely difficult to fight

This might just be me, but EVERY boss in MMnB was a complete [dark hold] (well, excluding the Green Devil).

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Also, he is one of the only pre-X robot masters with a human face to ever show visible, realistic facial expressions in-game.

For the 8-bit/8-bit-like games, I'd chalk that up to graphical limitations. As for the rest--they're the kind of characters who would make goofy faces like that. Burnerman, by contrast, looks like has already torched dozens of people alive.

Offline Gaia

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2012, 05:16:47 AM »
This might just be me, but EVERY boss in MMnB was a complete [dark hold] (well, excluding the Green Devil).

I'm able to beat Cold Man with both characters no prob, heh. Dynamo Man is the real ass of the 8 bosses. Others have a slight learning curve which makes them a pain to fight early on, I learned this through the Magic Man boss battle on the jap release (played it under the mm9 alias when MM9 didn't exist yet and MM&B wasn't on US shores yet, so it was on an emulator).
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Offline Sakura Leic

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2012, 05:25:48 AM »
.....Okay this is way more hilarious that the theory that Iris is human.  >0<

 Seriously Burner Man is a just a gullible trusting dude who is super hard to beat because in Megaman and Bass they really stack the odds against Megaman and Bass surprisingly has a easier time.  Not to mention the entire game is like Megaman X6 to most people, very hard and cheap.

 Like Gonzo said since King believed that humans are bastards and wanted to use robots in war so it makes sense why he wouldn't reprogram a robot because that's what a evil human would do but he's not above using other despicable means since he was made by Wily.

Besides there are other robot masters with a almost fully human face, Megaman, Roll, Protoman, Quickman, Splash Woman, and many others.

Offline The Great Gonzo

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2012, 05:39:55 AM »
At least "Burnerman is a Cyborg Master" isn't directly contradicted by a sourcebook. I think.

Besides there are other robot masters with a almost fully human face, Megaman, Roll, Protoman, Quickman, Splash Woman, and many others.

He did specify that Burner's the only RM with a human face in MMnB.


Offline Sakura Leic

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2012, 05:41:52 AM »
I suppose he did, guess I missed that when I skimmed it.

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2012, 05:51:09 AM »
.....Okay this is way more hilarious that the theory that Iris is human.  >0<

When was this? XD  I must have missed that one...

As for Burnerman's looks... I chalk it up to simple design aesthetics.  He just simply looked better with a face.

Offline Sakura Leic

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2012, 06:01:56 AM »
I saw it in one of chat discussions in one of the articles on The Megaman Network or something.  Always the same guy too.

Offline Flame

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2012, 06:08:32 AM »
Burnerman is a fun design. But an [dark hold] of a boss. Only thing that makes Dynamoman any difficult is the fact that he can heal himself and if you are not Bass, you will have a more difficult time breaking his charger.

As for a Cyborg...

I don't think so... That kind of tech, that level of tech doesn't seem to have popped up until the Elf Wars, where it was used to Punish Weil for his crimes, and did not become more advanced until ZX, where it became commonplace. (Then again, having a nigh unkillable regenerative body is pretty damn advanced... even compared to ZX cyborgs)
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Joseph Collins

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2012, 06:36:38 AM »
Interesting theory with some equally interesting things to back it up, I have to admit.  But... eh.  I dunno.
-He is insanely difficult to fight, especially with Mega Man (Bass is this game's "easy mode", with all due respect).
He is?  I never had any problem with him.  Buster-only, both with Rock and Forte.  And without any power-up items, too.  X3  Magicman, on the other hand...  What a freaking nightmare.  >_<  Without the Counter-Attacker module, Bass just... can't defeat him.  Either that or I'm just really, really lame at fighting him.  At least Rockman can do three times as much damage in one shot.  Geeze.

... I do wonder why Burnerman has a bomb in his chassis, though.  Maybe King didn't want to reprogram him or something...

Offline Sakura Leic

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2012, 06:38:50 AM »
Burner man doesn't have a bomb in his chassis, King tricked him.

Offline Joseph Collins

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2012, 06:46:03 AM »
King is a jerk.  :(

Offline Sakura Leic

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2012, 06:50:39 AM »
Well Wily did brainwash him to be that way.

Offline Ladd Spencer

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2012, 07:46:35 AM »
Shenron removed that bomb, guys. Burner Man is gonna be OK

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Offline Align

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2012, 09:26:02 AM »
It's the quicket way around the First Rule; for Mega Man to beat a cyborg, he has to do so indirectly.
"....through action or inaction...."

Offline Ladd Spencer

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2012, 10:00:35 AM »
Firstly, a robot can serve as prosecutor, merely giving data sufficient to determine the accused of being a detriment to the society as a whole to the jury and judge, who convict and condemn the accused, and who order the executioner to execute the accused.

Secondly, a robot can create a ship that kills its crew, so long as they are alive after the jump.

Thirdly, robots were created in secret by United States Robotics and Mechanical Men who had an altered First Law, which merely stated "through action" in place of "through action or inaction". They were necessary for applications involving heavy radiation, where 30 minutes in a suit was the longest humans could remain out there. Regular robots with regular positronic brains would save them immediately, because they could not be sure if they or anything else would be there in time if the situation were to occur.

And lastly, King obviously was trying to throw Mega Man off the trail of Dr. Wily by putting those CDs all over the place. Mega Man asking Guts Man if he likes to sing karaoke was an incredibly devious one.

FEELS  ;^;Which has the massive scrotums?

Offline Mirby

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2012, 10:07:01 AM »
And lastly, King obviously was trying to throw Mega Man off the trail of Dr. Wily by putting those CDs all over the place. Mega Man asking Guts Man if he likes to sing karaoke was an incredibly devious one.
Also he thinks Dr. Light is a douche.
OH [parasitic bomb] IM USING LINK AND I ACCIDENTALLY FINAL SMASHED A CUCCO OH GOD HELP
If that counts as a hint then a truck crashing through your wall counts as subtle.

Offline Joseph Collins

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2012, 10:45:11 AM »
But Dr. Right is a douche.  And also, a douchie.

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2012, 10:49:21 AM »
Douchey, actually, is how the game spells it. XD
OH [parasitic bomb] IM USING LINK AND I ACCIDENTALLY FINAL SMASHED A CUCCO OH GOD HELP
If that counts as a hint then a truck crashing through your wall counts as subtle.

Offline Flame

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2012, 03:01:49 PM »
I totally missed this while reading earlier:

Quote
Why, that would be the First Rule of Robotics in place, here.

   It's the quickest way around the First Rule;
Well now you are just assuming that Mega Man Robots even HAVE the rules of robotics hard coded and are bound by them. Mega Man sure doesn't, otherwise he would be completely unable to fight Wily 1 on 1 in their final showdowns. The rules, (or at least the first one,) exist in the mega man universe, but the robots don't seem bound by them, it seems like more of a moral guideline, since they are all sentient robots anyway and understand that hurting people is wrong. Or, as far as Classic goes, are just not programmed to do such a thing. Their programming is advanced and lifelike, but in the end it is still not entirely the same as a Human. Their personalities and moral compass are based on their creator's desires. Such as Rock having a strong sense of justice, or Bass being proud as a Peacock.

Also, non canon cameos to the universe for sure, but in MvC 1,2 and TvC, Rock and Roll have absolutely no problem fighting Human characters.
Quote
his programming-induced hesitation. It isn't his "weakness", par say, but an ingenious way to defeat him.
He has no such thing. He attacks Wily all the damn time.

Also,

"....through action or inaction...."
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Melsurigan

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2012, 07:17:08 PM »
Also, non canon cameos to the universe for sure, but in MvC 1,2 and TvC, Rock and Roll have absolutely no problem fighting Human characters.

You're backing your argument based on a non canon source? Seriously?

He has no such thing. He attacks Wily all the damn time.

Rock does not explicitly hurt Dr. Wily, but attacks the machine that Wily is inside, without harming him. He never kills Wily, let alone directly; not even in MM7, where in the Japanese version he obediently followed the First Rule of Robotics.

Offline The Great Gonzo

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2012, 07:33:23 PM »
Rock does not explicitly hurt Dr. Wily, but attacks the machine that Wily is inside, without harming him. He never kills Wily, let alone directly; not even in MM7, where in the Japanese version he obediently followed the First Rule of Robotics.

I think there's at least one game (MMII) where Megaman has to shoot Wily directly, or Wily doesn't fall/hop out of the machine upon its destruction.

As for MM7, it didn't have to be THE First Law preventing Megaman from killing Wily; maybe Megaman realized that shooting him would bring more harm than good (he's supposed to be a defender of humans, yet he shot one in the face, and in the MM-verse humans outside of the doctors and Kalinka tend to be panicky, bastardly idiots).

(I noticed the "the Laws are totally programmed into Classic 'bots" thing too, but was afraid to bring it up in case the thread turned into a mess. Too late for that now?)

Offline Melsurigan

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2012, 08:26:15 PM »
I wouldn't say the thread is a mess. I did invite people to counter my argument.

Offline Flame

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2012, 08:32:36 PM »
You're backing your argument based on a non canon source? Seriously?
Sure, why not? Made by Capcom, right? May not be a 100% best source, but certain elements are definitely salvageable, such as Zero calling Roll a Housekeeping Reploid because he just can't tell the difference, thus proving that in the 21XX world, Classic series robots would still be considered Reploids since they are also sentient androids, very similar to Reploids, simply set aback by inferior technology and mental capacity. (they sure as hell are not mechaniloids, right?)

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Rock does not explicitly hurt Dr. Wily, but attacks the machine that Wily is inside, without harming him.
Irrelevant.

"1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm."

Rock directly attacks a machine with Wily inside, causing it to explode. There is GREAT risk of Wily being seriously hurt. I wouldn't quite expect you to be fine after YOUR car blows up with you inside, no? Rock, far back in 1, had no way of knowing if Wily could or could not be injured by his machine's destruction.

And I mean, come on. You are attacking his machines with such things as tossed Sawblades, concussive explosives, and even miniature black holes. You cant seriously tell me There is absolutely no risk for him to get hurt, especially when you always attack the COCKPIT where he is seated once the initial Skull facade is broken.
And Wily DOES get hurt by it. Comedic value aside, he ALWAYS ends up scuffed, bruised, clothes torn, and sometimes missing a tooth or two.

 
Quote
He never kills Wily, let alone directly; not even in MM7, where in the Japanese version he obediently followed the First Rule of Robotics.
Of course he would not kill Wily. You dont need the 3 rules to keep Rock from killing people. He knows it's wrong. He fights for justice and peace. When Wily, taken aback by Rock's sudden lapse of moral judgement, questioned it, Rock didn't say anything. he just stood there, most likely realizing it was wrong. Dont underestimate his sense of Justice. The same sense of Justice that had him volunteer to be converted into a battle robot to stop his rampant brother robots.

Also, there is this:

"2. A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law."

Rock would have to obey every order given to him by Wily. He would have to obey if Wily told him to stand down.

Asimovian Robots do not good battle robots make.

EDIT: the 0th law would also cause a paradox for Rock. It states that a Robot may not harm Humanity, or by inaction, allow it to come to harm.

so yes, that means he would have tofight against Wily to protect Humanity, since Wily can cause damages and harm people.

BUT, by attacking Wily and going against him, a Human, he would be breaking the first law, where he cannot allow Wily to be harmed or come to harm. he would also be breaking the second law, where he must obey any orders given him by a Human. And naturally, Any order Wily gives him would also break the first 2 laws, or the third even, if he were to order Mega Man to terminate himself.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Melsurigan

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Re: Burner Man is a cyborg
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2012, 09:43:25 PM »
Okay, NOW you're starting to make sense. What you're saying, basically, is that robots and programming are far more complex than something like the Asimovian rules can really grasp.


That's a good argument. If that is the case, considering Mega Man has fought Wily consistently, he knows Wily's a threat and will wreck his machine with him in it, but holds back from shooting at him when he's defenseless, because of his personal sense of justice.


However, it is not explicitly stated in MM&B that he has any idea if King's invasion is backed by Dr. Wily. The whole deceit trick may have been done to death, but Mega Man does have a tendency to fall for it. True, he may have a hunch deep down, but he won't take his chances. So theoretically, if Burner Man was a cyborg, Mega Man can't just assume that he will become a repeat offender like Wily, so deep down he'll hesitate.


In the end, he does wind up defeating him. And he does explode. But mind you, I did say just the head was human, right? There are plenty of fictional cyborgs that can survive with only a brain, and since he comes back in the Fortress levels, perhaps his head was found and he was rebuilt?