Author Topic: Reploid reviving  (Read 10440 times)

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Offline The Great Gonzo

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #75 on: July 29, 2012, 02:01:25 PM »
This reminds me--did the X series, at any point in time, make a clear distinction between a "viral" and "free-will" Maverick, or are we always left to speculate? (I think Repliforce might count as free-will Mavericks)

'cuz if EVERY Maverick turned out to be viral...that'd be depressing as hell, writing-wise. (Stupid question might be stupid, I know...)

Offline Hypershell

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #76 on: July 29, 2012, 04:17:20 PM »
We're left to speculate because the virus frequently defies attempts at analysis.  There are means of scanning for it but they are imperfect, as made abundantly clear in X5.  Awakened Zero does not give any viral readings.  There are times when you definitely know that the virus is at work, but rarely do you definitely know that it isn't.  Throughout the entire series the determination of Maverick status is a judgement on behavior, not of any clear measurement, which is most clearly evident in the Repliforce, Shield Sheldon, and the Rebellion Army.

You've got a point, but there's not much of a resolution to that challenge. Same with X4 and X8. Another thing that leaves me wanting is that not only was it not a persistent theme, it comes and goes right before the very end of the game, between the last battle and the last scene.
The lack of resolution is deliberate, as often times happens when writing about moral judgement and intangible issues.  Command Mission outright states at the end that the powers that be are not willing to label Epsilon as definitively Maverick or not, rather, since he's dead anyway, they simply deferred the judgement.

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But who blew that whistle? The mad man did. And you made the point later that it's easy to dismiss what the madman says, so what it is that X8 says about Mavericks in the end? That it doesn't mean as much as we were led to believe? That they're just insane? Basically the same thing that CM suggested. Also that the good guys win, so who gives a [parasitic bomb] anyways? Let's fighting love!
Lumine merely confirmed what was suspected throughout the game: That the new-gen behavior cannot possibly be the result of viral infection.  The significance of such a statement, the judgement of whether such reasoning is sane or not, and whether or not it calls for his level of bragging, all of that is highly debatable.  But the facts are the facts, and it's something that before X8 was frequently swept under the rug.  Assuming there is a right and a wrong choice, by definition a free willed entity must be capable of making either one.

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Offline Treleus

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #77 on: July 29, 2012, 10:21:48 PM »
We're left to speculate because the virus frequently defies attempts at analysis.  There are means of scanning for it but they are imperfect, as made abundantly clear in X5.  Awakened Zero does not give any viral readings.  There are times when you definitely know that the virus is at work, but rarely do you definitely know that it isn't.  Throughout the entire series the determination of Maverick status is a judgement on behavior, not of any clear measurement, which is most clearly evident in the Repliforce, Shield Sheldon, and the Rebellion Army.

By the same examples, it's also been shown to be a powerful propaganda tool. That's something I just wanted to see the games admit and resolve, even if they continue to use the term. It'd be enough for me if X took a step back and realized that all the Reploids he keeps calling Maverick aren't always "pure evil" or deserving of the label, which he sorta almost did at the end of X8, but then Zero just dismissed it and the game ended on that note.

The lack of resolution is deliberate, as often times happens when writing about moral judgement and intangible issues.  Command Mission outright states at the end that the powers that be are not willing to label Epsilon as definitively Maverick or not, rather, since he's dead anyway, they simply deferred the judgement.

I don't remember that part. I'll have to play CM again.

Lumine merely confirmed what was suspected throughout the game: That the new-gen behavior cannot possibly be the result of viral infection.  The significance of such a statement, the judgement of whether such reasoning is sane or not, and whether or not it calls for his level of bragging, all of that is highly debatable.  But the facts are the facts, and it's something that before X8 was frequently swept under the rug.  Assuming there is a right and a wrong choice, by definition a free willed entity must be capable of making either one.

But like I said, it's going back to square one. Rather than realizing the term "Maverick" didn't actually mean what they thought it meant, and thereby prompting them to explore or reevaluate it a bit, our heroes resolved to just basically keep thinking and doing the same thing about it. At least that's the suggestion; I liked Zero's last line about fighting against destiny, but that was more in response to Lumine's comment about them being unfit to survive because ... they're old? I dunno.

It's like at the end of X4 when X asked Zero to kill him if he ever becomes a Maverick. To me that never made sense. It's as if X didn't learn anything from the plight of Repliforce or being manipulated by Sigma once again. To him it just went back to "well, I sure hope I'm never on the wrong side of the law." It's one thing to be afraid, but it's another thing to be so monumentally dense.

I'm exhausted. I'll concede that I should replay the games and pay closer attention to what the narratives are trying to say, but I still think they're too much fluff and not enough substance, leaving the fans to either substitute it themselves or pick it out from the leanest of subtext. For me, if they're going to have a story, I want a little more than that. If not, I'd rather it just be all action and little story if any.

But mostly I just need to play some more videogames. I'm tired.

Offline Gaia

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #78 on: July 29, 2012, 10:45:03 PM »
We saw others that showed skin at the thighs.

I keep forgetting which reploid had this "necesstitty". Also, in terms of gender considering reploids, was Iris truly the "first" to appear in the games? pre-X4, most reploid females were given the A-OK for mass production, which makes me question who was X's "eve", if he was the "adam"?

But on the case of mavericks, I think it would be the same for human peers if one were to deem a fellow man "insane" if he went against human law?
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Offline Flame

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #79 on: July 30, 2012, 12:51:18 AM »
None, they just applied X's design concept to male AND female Reploids. They dont seem to have any other gender defining characteristics aside from looks, voice and mind anyway, so they just give them a female body and a female mind and there you go.

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I don't remember that part. I'll have to play CM again.
Basically, due to his actions and Redips involvement, it was a tough case- remember, Epsilon made absolutely SURE that no Humans were harmed during his take over of Gigantis. He exiled them peacefully and without incident, as well as making sure civilian reploids were not harmed by his actions either, as noted when Scarface challenges X and Zero to battle in Central Tower.  But, he still used a Supra Force Metal missile as a bargaining tool, threatening to launch it, with the potential of creating thousands of mavericks through it if he did so. But Redips manipulated events and only eliminated Epsilon out of his own self interest, so the case against Esilon being a Maverick was very difficult to decide.

Even X seems to aknowledge that Epsilon was not(may not have been?) Maverick when he addresses Redips.

"Epsilon Knew from the start that the use of Supra Force Metal involved the possibility of going Maverick- But at least he- was BETTER than you! At least he wasn't a Maverick from the start!"
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Treleus

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #80 on: July 30, 2012, 09:29:44 PM »
Come to think of it, Epsilon is General Francis X. Hummel:



Far out.

I dunno. I guess I'm tired of X yelling MAVERICK all the time. It describes only the semblance of a behavior and doesn't go any deeper, which also describes the character to me: purely reactive. The more it's said, the more it loses it's meaning.

Offline Flame

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #81 on: July 31, 2012, 01:24:35 AM »
I always found that scene where X calls redips a Maverick to be hillarious in CM

X: "Redips! You... You... MAVERICK!!!"

Redips: *DRAMATIC TURN*

*Battle riff*
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Hypershell

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #82 on: August 11, 2012, 06:08:35 AM »
By the same examples, it's also been shown to be a powerful propaganda tool. That's something I just wanted to see the games admit and resolve, even if they continue to use the term. It'd be enough for me if X took a step back and realized that all the Reploids he keeps calling Maverick aren't always "pure evil" or deserving of the label, which he sorta almost did at the end of X8, but then Zero just dismissed it and the game ended on that note.
I believe that game is called Mega Man Zero.

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It's like at the end of X4 when X asked Zero to kill him if he ever becomes a Maverick. To me that never made sense. It's as if X didn't learn anything from the plight of Repliforce or being manipulated by Sigma once again. To him it just went back to "well, I sure hope I'm never on the wrong side of the law." It's one thing to be afraid, but it's another thing to be so monumentally dense.
Repliforce isn't the whole story of X4, though.  There's also Double, and the fact that over the years they never did figure out what set Sigma off in the first place, either.  X reminisces over all three before Zero chimes in.

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It describes only the semblance of a behavior and doesn't go any deeper
A lot of psychological terms are the same way.  The definitive causes are unknown and the diagnosis is a judgement call.  While the government is all too happy to refer to enemies of the state as "Maverick", X and Zero generally do not.  The two of them certainly never referred to Repliforce that way, only that their superiors would "consider/think/treat" them as such.  And all the way up to the General they try to reason with their opponents.  Those who X and Zero directly call Maverick are generally those they dismiss as crazy, whether they are on the right side of the law or not (see Redips and Dr. Weil).

Epsilon is an odd case.  X refers to him as Maverick at the start but backtracks on that opinion in the later chapters, particularly during his first duel with Scarface, and when facing Redips.  The important distinction to make is that X does NOT question whether or not Redips needs to be stopped at any point during that time; never does he describe Epsilon's actions as anything but dangerous.  So we can clearly see that being Maverick is not a simple matter of being in his, or the law's, crosshairs.

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Offline Treleus

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #83 on: August 15, 2012, 02:25:26 PM »
I believe that game is called Mega Man Zero.

Fair point, but too little too late. Suffice it to say that MMZ isn't what I'm asking for. It's an X game I want, and preferably not on the GBA.

Repliforce isn't the whole story of X4, though.  There's also Double, and the fact that over the years they never did figure out what set Sigma off in the first place, either.  X reminisces over all three before Zero chimes in.

Good points. I guess for X, the unanswered questions leads him to suspect himself as well as those around him. I still think it's a sappy and needless scene, though.

A lot of psychological terms are the same way.  The definitive causes are unknown and the diagnosis is a judgement call.  While the government is all too happy to refer to enemies of the state as "Maverick", X and Zero generally do not.  The two of them certainly never referred to Repliforce that way, only that their superiors would "consider/think/treat" them as such.  And all the way up to the General they try to reason with their opponents.  Those who X and Zero directly call Maverick are generally those they dismiss as crazy, whether they are on the right side of the law or not (see Redips and Dr. Weil).

Epsilon is an odd case.  X refers to him as Maverick at the start but backtracks on that opinion in the later chapters, particularly during his first duel with Scarface, and when facing Redips.  The important distinction to make is that X does NOT question whether or not Redips needs to be stopped at any point during that time; never does he describe Epsilon's actions as anything but dangerous.  So we can clearly see that being Maverick is not a simple matter of being in his, or the law's, crosshairs.

My problem with most of this that there is no real judgment calling on either of their parts. It always ends the same way: with a fight and the suspected Maverick dying. It's the traditional trapping of the Mega Man action game. But with the X series, I think the games' could've handled both the gameplay and this dubious case of who-or-what-is-a-Maverick more intelligently by giving players some more choices and more consequences.

Offline Waifu

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #84 on: August 15, 2012, 06:46:29 PM »
My problem with most of this that there is no real judgment calling on either of their parts. It always ends the same way: with a fight and the suspected Maverick dying. It's the traditional trapping of the Mega Man action game. But with the X series, I think the games' could've handled both the gameplay and this dubious case of who-or-what-is-a-Maverick more intelligently by giving players some more choices and more consequences.

It wasn't until recently that Capcom gave Westerners manuals or guides outside of Japan on what they actually do with the Mavericks. I know we are not expecting a Bioware type game where your actions effect your morality meter but I agree that gameplay did need to accomodate this. In almost every X game, it always this:

Eight Mavericks, Irregulars or whatever are attacking and X and Zero must stop them

(X and Zero beat the level and get to the boss, busts down the door)

X/Zero: What is going on here?
Boss: I am evil and just want to do evil things, lol!!!
X: Is there any way we can about this?
Zero: Why aren't we fighting yet?
Boss: I don't want to talk, I want to destroy things and I want to beat people up for no good reason!
Zero: Have it your way!
X: We could avoided this!

(X and Zero beat boss)

Alia: You got the bosses weapon. It turns this guy wasn't evil at all but Sigma or some other Reploid manipulated this guy into commited these atrocities, he was actually nice guy until he went crazy some contrived reason. A pity though...oh well, on the next Maverick.

*rinse and repeat*

It would nice to put in some sort of morality where there was no clear hero or villain and even X admits that he may be the bad guy this time. Capcom will not allow this to happen to their blue bomber but it would be interesting what would happen if the line between Irregulars/Mavericks blurred.

Offline Hypershell

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #85 on: August 18, 2012, 07:07:59 AM »
My problem with most of this that there is no real judgment calling on either of their parts. It always ends the same way: with a fight and the suspected Maverick dying. It's the traditional trapping of the Mega Man action game. But with the X series, I think the games' could've handled both the gameplay and this dubious case of who-or-what-is-a-Maverick more intelligently by giving players some more choices and more consequences.
I don't consider linearity to necessarily be a bad thing.  The author has the right to define their character independent of the player, and quite frankly, most gamers wouldn't give a damn anyway.  During the rare instances where the player DOES have a choice in a Mega Man game, they tend to simply take the path of least resistance and accept it as burned in stone (I am probably the only guy on the face of the Earth who appreciates the fact that I can get by the battle with Iris without directly attacking her in X4).

A "false Maverick" has a good chance of dying simply because the series treats its NPCs in general as disposable (whether dying or dropping off the Earth; Alia, Signas, and Light are about the only exceptions).  But it's not always the result of battle.  See Doppler (X3) and Ferham (XCM).  They're removed for the sake of plot convenience; they did not die as a result of battle with X and Zero.

The open-ended "Mass Effect" route would be a cool mechanic to play with, I'll give you that EASILY.  I just see it as "different" and "interesting", not objectively "better".  There are a lot of games out there that aren't really supposed to be deep in terms of their narrative, and a lot of gamers who wouldn't appreciate it even if they were.

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Offline Mirby

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #86 on: August 18, 2012, 10:23:43 AM »
I am saddened at your lack of mention of GBD.
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Offline Treleus

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #87 on: August 18, 2012, 08:46:19 PM »
Don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge the MMX games for being linear action-fests. That's what I love them for. It's just that no X game has ever made feel as invested in my quest or the events going on as X1. I can enjoy a strictly linear new X game as long as it weaves a plot with that kind of finesse. A game that makes me care about what I'm doing or what my goal is. Most of the time I just don't care. The glowing exceptions to these rules are X1 and X4 (as Zero) for me. The rest of the games I just wanna fight, fight, fight, and I don't have to tell you how much X's "BUT I DUN WANNA FAIGT" attitude clashes with that.

That's kinda why I suggested the "Mass Effect" style of giving player's choices that mean something or have some emotional/consequential weight to them. Poisonally I prefer the example of Deus Ex, but then I haven't played Mass Effect yet. Not sure how well my Intel Core i5 & Nvidia GeFORCE 310M can handle it, but its downloaded and ready, so I might as well give it a shot today.

Offline Hypershell

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #88 on: August 19, 2012, 05:44:03 AM »
I am saddened at your lack of mention of GBD.
Forgive me, I was thinking of supporting characters.  GBD doesn't do any supporting; he exists solely to be cannon fodder.

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Offline Mirby

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #89 on: August 19, 2012, 06:42:51 AM »
Forgive me, I was thinking of supporting characters.  GBD doesn't do any supporting; he exists solely to be cannon fodder.
I was mostly teasing you anyways, honestly. :P
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Offline Ladd Spencer

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #90 on: August 19, 2012, 07:44:00 AM »
Yea, but X can't ever even dream of entering the same plane as GBD. That's gotta count for something.

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