Author Topic: Reploid reviving  (Read 10464 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Treleus

  • B-Class Hunter
  • *
  • Posts: 420
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #50 on: July 14, 2012, 03:39:43 AM »
Within the scope of an action game that shows little beyond the immediate. Do you think such a recovery operation could have been mentioned anywhere but the next game's manual? It was actually described in there, until some tidbits of localization removed it in full.

The point is Zero simply came back in spite of the conclusive role he played in X1. The justification's not really relevant next to the reason of why he was killed only to be revived shortly after. The answer to that is because everyone liked Zero, but most especially Inafune and the Mega Man X team. I guess I can't blame them, but then why have him killed at all? So people will want him even more? If so, then why keep X around? I'm going off into a whole nother tangent, but you see where this is going.

The term is DNA data, though. For all we know it is coded like its biological counterpart. The information it contains is able to be converted from human to robot and vice versa as we established earlier. Using the term "DNA" definitely eased up the transition toward ZX.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH--you see what's happening, though? It's just like I said: we're already conflating human anatomy with Reploid construction, and it's too early for that in the X series. Way too early. Hell, it's even unnecessary. It'd make more sense to just call in nanomachine data than DNA data, if we're going with nanomachine fluid as the blood and matter of a Reploid. Either way, I'd much rather the uniqueness of these two sentient races be maintained and explored, at least within the confines of the X series, before they're synthesized into a singular cyborg race.

Also, wouldn't the phrase "DNA data" be properly read as "information about (an organism's) DNA"? How about program code instead? The interesting thing about program code is that not only are there several different kinds of programming languages, but a machine's software is often divided by at least two layers of program code: higher level programming (your Java, C++, or SQL code) and assembly code (your 1s and 0s). In the case of Java via the portable JVM, it's three layers: the high level Java syntax, the middle level byte code, and finally the assembly code. I haven't opened my biology textbook in a while, but isn't this distinct from how DNA governs or influences variation? That reminds me of another point: mutation. How would program code mutate and evolve? Can it? Ooh! And then there's some exciting development now with quantum computing, where any given state of a circuit board switch could be 1 and 0 at the same time instead of exclusively one or the other.

The story concept of DNA resurrection was born from gameplay dating back to X1, MM1 even. Remember the boss rematches? Besides, it's not like it's easy, or legal to do for that matter. Whenever it is attempted, the result is often a mindless shell of the Repliroid that once was.

It seems like the rather lofty term of "DNA resurrection" could actually describe something a little more mundane, like the robot being repaired, having had another copy manufactured for backup, or "cloned" with a machine (which reminds me of bottom-up manufacturing).

Middy died in the 'middle' of Cyber Mission's story, sort of.

Hm. My memory's fuzzy. I'm almost certain I remember seeing him die at the end after you've killed Techno, but then I'm not sure whether that comes before or after you fight Sigma.

Offline Gaia

  • RPM's only Card Collector.
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 8225
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Male
  • Yep.
    • View Profile
    • YT Profile Page
Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #51 on: July 14, 2012, 05:43:41 AM »
To be fair, Zero doesn't just magically come back in X2, and there's still the chance that he won't come back right. (X5/X6 is another story in both English and JP, I think.)

Iris is still dead, with no hope of revival; same goes for Colonel, Middy, and Techno, for the same reasons

Well, if you put some aspects from another series, say, Digimon which has similar aspects on the concept of death and rebirth, it could make a hell of a lot more sense. As you know, Digimon has this "data core" that keeps them kicking even after the most fatal of wounds, as the damage is so bad they revert back into their fresh data to recover from that kind of damage, and it is actually explained so it makes sense. Because their data cores were completely destroyed and had no backup unit, thus making them dead for good.

So if we apply some of that with the X series' concept of revival, it would just make much more sense since Zero's CPU is seemingly invincible.
Workshop/DA/YT/Photobucket なにかんがえてるの!?
So its about ass now huh? EVEN THE ASS HAS 'EXCEEDED'!

One mention of LEGENDS and everyone goes batshit.  :\

Yep, every time when someone mentions that game people get energized for an apparent reason whatsoever. It's like this everywhere else, trust me.

It got really messy to find my sprite and comic topic, so it's in my sig.

Offline Flame

  • The obsessive
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 15914
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #52 on: July 14, 2012, 08:41:00 AM »
Zero's CPU is just lucky.

And I still done see what the big deal is. You are getting all worked up over what something is named. Thats like arguing over Rockman vs Mega Man. What it's called doesnt matter as much as what it is. It is the robot equivalent of DNA. it fulfills the same role, and when it's used to revive Reploids, they come back as copies, not the originals. Clones, if you will. DNA resurrection is little more than cloning a Reploid from it's DNA data. The data that contains who they are and every detail about them, sans their actual mind.

Now, When Gate resurrected his creations, are we to assume all their control chips miraculously survived, or that with DNA resurrection is possible to actually revive the Reploid? I mean, we know that Dr. Weil, once cyber elves came about, is an expert at literally pulling a Robot's ghost out of cyberspace to revive them and not just their body.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Treleus

  • B-Class Hunter
  • *
  • Posts: 420
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #53 on: July 14, 2012, 04:12:42 PM »
It's like saying "God did it", or "a wizard" if you'd like. It explains little if not nothing about what's happening, or it gives a flimsy explanation, and isn't much more than a cheap plot device. Now, you shouldn't need to take computer courses in order to get the behind-the-scenes details of Mega Man X, but what I'm saying is it could start to be a lot more interesting and sensible with the right nomenclature. The naming is just a start, and more a pet peeve of mine; what it points to is the bigger picture I've talked about: if you're going to have big detailed stories, it helps if they make the most sense. A good story could work with or around some flaws, like the possessed arm in Metal Gear Solid, but Mega Man X doesn't really have a great narrative. It has good theming and some decent settings, but not great stories.

Also, the term "virus" works in both biology and computer/network science because it's actually a general term that describes a malignant agent. With DNA, you're describing an acid, with a specific function(s), that occurs in nature as opposed to human-engineered technology. It's two different provinces, and that's what should make the story of Mega Man X interesting: the provinces of man and Reploid.

Offline Flame

  • The obsessive
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 15914
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #54 on: July 14, 2012, 06:19:53 PM »
I'd like to see Inti Creates do a Mega Man X game. Not only would they nail gameplay, but since they love narrative and story, we would get a hell of an experience.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Align

  • Master's Unit
  • *
  • Posts: 3432
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Natural Selection, my FPS of choice
Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #55 on: July 14, 2012, 08:22:52 PM »
Sounds pretty awesome.
Too late for established concepts, tho'.

Offline Flame

  • The obsessive
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 15914
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #56 on: July 14, 2012, 08:56:37 PM »
pfft, never too late. Whatever is there can just be refined. MHX did that just fine.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Treleus

  • B-Class Hunter
  • *
  • Posts: 420
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #57 on: July 15, 2012, 01:32:15 AM »
Retconning's also on the table. ;)

I've got some faith in IntiCreates. Most (if not all of) their team worked on the first 5 X games and the handheld games after them. They're not perfect, but they're more than competent, and they should do more than well given the right environment: strong budget, good direction, good platform (16-bit pls), and a now rich bed of experience to draw from. I think they just need to go back to basics a bit and play around with the VWS a bit more. The stuff that's going in ZX now is all over the place, but I would LOVE to see the X games remade. MHX seemed like a pretty good start, but I think they could do even better than that.

Offline Gaia

  • RPM's only Card Collector.
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 8225
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Male
  • Yep.
    • View Profile
    • YT Profile Page
Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #58 on: July 15, 2012, 02:13:45 AM »
Back when I remember, being rebuilt origionally was a way to explain the "lives" part in the games mechanics in a sense. I think they kinda pushed it to a new level when the virus was first mentioned.
Workshop/DA/YT/Photobucket なにかんがえてるの!?
So its about ass now huh? EVEN THE ASS HAS 'EXCEEDED'!

One mention of LEGENDS and everyone goes batshit.  :\

Yep, every time when someone mentions that game people get energized for an apparent reason whatsoever. It's like this everywhere else, trust me.

It got really messy to find my sprite and comic topic, so it's in my sig.

Offline Flame

  • The obsessive
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 15914
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #59 on: July 15, 2012, 03:33:18 AM »
I don't recall that ever being an explanation for lives...
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Hypershell

  • needs DRAGONITE POWER!
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 5222
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Steel in Zee Head
    • View Profile
    • Get equipped with Hyper's DA
Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #60 on: July 15, 2012, 06:37:18 AM »
Jeez, I laxed in watching this thread...

(though it seems a lot of fans forget that Iris, despite hints that she still cared for Zero somewhat, tried to murder his ass dead, and have her come back as if she didn't and everything's all sunshine and rainbows)
It's not exactly a "hint" when she spends her entire deathbed telling Zero how badly she wanted to live with him.

Upon installing Colonel's chip Iris triggered "rejection symptoms" within herself, and is described as "out of control" (both quotes from Servbot20's collected info).  Now the finer details of what those statements mean are up to debate, I suppose, but suffice to say there is a reason she and Colonel were not the same Reploid to begin with.  Their personality traits are not compatible and in trying to merge them she was no longer able to function properly.  Iris's body had only a few scuffs; her death is "internal" because she corrupted her own systems.  And, as I often point out, the perceived direct conflict between her and Zero is actually the result of the player; Iris ejects the crystal on her own if Zero's in critical condition, so you don't really have to attack her to win that fight.  It still ends with the same result.

If they must have DNA, then might they not also have an epidermis with hair and blood vessels surrounding a titanium endoskeleton?
Again, this is all a matter of "when" not of "if", but in the Classic/X context, we see many robots with faces of comparable expression and elasticity to a human's, so...yeah, not sure where your point is on that one.

Even assuming literal use of the term "DNA", nucleic acid as a storage medium does not necessitate the presence of protein, cell structure, capillaries, etc.  We merely associate those with it because it's the "biological" application.  But once we've crossed the bridge of manipulating it for a new application, we are in no way obligated to direct it towards the construction of those same structures.  That's about as logical as claiming that because you have an SD card in your digital camera, anyone who has an SD card must also be using it for photography.

Quote
Just because computer viruses are a legit thing doesn't mean "Reploid DNA" or "DNA Souls" are too.
I feel the need to point out that the "soul" is NOT a biological term, but a philosophical one, and it is not clearly defined.  Depending on who you ask, a "soul" may be considered by definition part of any self-aware entity.  To say this term is not to apply to Reploids is to say that Reploids are not permitted their own sense of philosophy, which is to say they are incapable of thinking independently.  We know this is not the case.

Quote
This is another one of my problems with the Maverick Virus: what makes a Reploid a Maverick? Is it the fundamental capacity for free will they've been programmed with, or free-floating viral code they can't defend against and makes them go all mad-cow and stuff? The answer could be either one, which turns this into a socio-political propaganda scare incident not unlike the McCarthy Red Scare. Unfortunately, the accepted narrative just became the latter and eventually led to magical Cyber Elves curing everything oh for [tornado fang]'s sake forget this I'm outta here
Anyone who has played X8 or MHX ought to know that the answer is both.  The only excuse to not pick that up is failure to think through a story that is presented in the context of an action game; similar to how everyone ignores Zero's capsule dialogue when criticizing his account of his return in X6.  Many players, unfortunately, have a tendency to look no deeper than the surface.  "If a virus makes Reploids go Maverick then it MUST be the only reason they go Maverick."  Such a statement is justified only by naivety.  The unknowns of the possible causes of Maverick behavior have been touched upon in MHX, X4, X8, and XCM.  All of these titles make it clear that "Maverick" is in fact a label, well before it became as loosely used as it was in the Zero series.

With DNA, you're describing an acid
The same acid you're describing with a virus before computers were invented.  Repurposing terms for new technology is a very real practice in the world.

But again, even assuming literal use, this is an acid that is the oldest known storage medium in existence, to which man-made analogues actually exist in the real world.  I'm sorry, Treleus, but I can't see that as anything but nitpicking.  Besides, I've always seen the theme of how Reploids compare and contrast to humanity as being more a matter of mentality than anatomy.  Especially because X's (known) anatomy is a step BACKWARDS from Rock in terms of how closely they match humans.

The Carbons could've had a hand in it too, but from what I heard, Capcom was once vague about Legends being the distant future or past, so they could've settled on "past" if they felt they'd written themselves into a corner...though that'd open up another can of worms regarding "humans" and robots, methinks.
I've not heard that one, but if there is any merit to it, it would apply only to the early segment of the Legends series' life.  When the Zero series was up and coming, Legends was described as "thousands of years after the X-series."

Im just gonna guess that since X was built primarily as a battle robot, Light just never really bothered to give him a civilian form, and instead concentrated on making him tougher, stronger, and more advanced in AI.
I sincerely doubt Light wanted X to be anymore "primarily a battle robot" than Rock was.  Obviously he made sure he was well prepared, his experience giving him plenty of reason to do so, but I'm sure Light would have been ecstatic had X been able to live a peaceful life.

I guess if I had to come up with some justification, one might be able to argue that the first independent artificial life form being "too human" in appearance would create a greater degree of skepticism and unease among people who are already slow to accept him.  That's kinda scraping the bottom of the barrel, though.

"Your pants are on fire."

Offline The Great Gonzo

  • Master's Unit
  • *
  • Posts: 3414
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #61 on: July 15, 2012, 07:07:13 AM »
Quote
And, as I often point out, the perceived direct conflict between her and Zero is actually the result of the player; Iris ejects the crystal on her own if Zero's in critical condition, so you don't really have to attack her to win that fight.

So if she didn't intend to kill him, what was she planning on doing with him afterwards (I'm guessing she didn't know that installing Colonel's CPU would make her implode)?

Offline Hypershell

  • needs DRAGONITE POWER!
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 5222
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Steel in Zee Head
    • View Profile
    • Get equipped with Hyper's DA
Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #62 on: July 15, 2012, 07:19:17 AM »
It's nigh impossible to answer that without speculating, but I personally see Iris as installing the chip out of desperation to hold onto her brother, either not thinking of or simply not caring about the consequences due to her extreme grief.  Ideally, she did want Zero removed from the battle with Repliforce, but I'm not convinced that she was thinking that far ahead before she installed the chip.

"Your pants are on fire."

Offline Blackhook

  • Dropper of ships
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 7587
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #63 on: July 15, 2012, 02:55:45 PM »
Guys, I might let you finish...but you are all just going REALLY offtopic right now and your arguments bring no answers.

Offline Ruri

  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 10698
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #64 on: July 15, 2012, 02:57:32 PM »
And I still done see what the big deal is. You are getting all worked up over what something is named.

This coming from the guy who got worked up over a helmet.

Offline Hypershell

  • needs DRAGONITE POWER!
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 5222
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Steel in Zee Head
    • View Profile
    • Get equipped with Hyper's DA
Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #65 on: July 15, 2012, 04:39:06 PM »
Guys, I might let you finish...but you are all just going REALLY offtopic right now and your arguments bring no answers.
We supplied all relevant "cold hard facts" to the highly philosophical question of reviving from the dead quite some time ago.  If you feel there is more to explore, by all means, offer some follow-up questions.


Well, I guess I could pick apart this:

So, DNA ressurection is explicitly prohibited, but the biggest problem with it is reviving Irregulars. Gotcha.

Kinda odd, though, since Dr. Vile and Neo Arcadia do it so regularly.
I'd be more concerned with the fact that X himself copies MSP's criminal activities in X6.  Though it is possible some degree of immunity may exist for certain circumstances, like how police officers may possess objects that are otherwise illegal to possess when necessary for evidence and undercover operations.

Neo Arcadia isn't that unusual for a couple of reasons.  One, their own Reploids would not be considered Maverick by the government.  Two, they ARE the government, and can write themselves off as exempt to their own rules.  Three, by the Zero series, there is a greater understanding of Reploid souls, cyberspace, etc., which is all highly relevant to the topic of avoiding the resurrection of an empty manipulable shell of a Reploid.

As for Weil, he isn't exactly known for his integrity.  He has a long history of favoring radical solutions through questionable means, manipulating both people and the law to get his way.  I'm not in the least surprised that "Thou shalt not conduct DNA revival" failed to deter him.

"Your pants are on fire."

Offline Treleus

  • B-Class Hunter
  • *
  • Posts: 420
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #66 on: July 15, 2012, 07:22:10 PM »
Again, this is all a matter of "when" not of "if", but in the Classic/X context, we see many robots with faces of comparable expression and elasticity to a human's, so...yeah, not sure where your point is on that one.

My point was why not just make them like Terminators? Not that their function would be to terminate, but they'd basically be made up of a robotic endoskeleton overlaid with organic tissue.

Even assuming literal use of the term "DNA", nucleic acid as a storage medium does not necessitate the presence of protein, cell structure, capillaries, etc.  We merely associate those with it because it's the "biological" application.  But once we've crossed the bridge of manipulating it for a new application, we are in no way obligated to direct it towards the construction of those same structures.  That's about as logical as claiming that because you have an SD card in your digital camera, anyone who has an SD card must also be using it for photography.

That's a good point, but the X series still does a poor job of explaining the usage or why it makes sense, like you did just now. That's why I suggest if they're going to be so light on the details, at least try to use terminology that maintains a better distinction between Reploids and humans. Otherwise, if they want to make the point that Reploids are a fusion of biology and technology, and not merely technology mimicking humanity, then they've got some more 'splainin to do.

I feel the need to point out that the "soul" is NOT a biological term, but a philosophical one, and it is not clearly defined.  Depending on who you ask, a "soul" may be considered by definition part of any self-aware entity.  To say this term is not to apply to Reploids is to say that Reploids are not permitted their own sense of philosophy, which is to say they are incapable of thinking independently.  We know this is not the case.

My point here was that "soul" is, like you said, another vague term used to describe the uniqueness of humans, not a biological term. However, in the context of both religion AND Mega Man X, "souls" are used to mean something more literal rather than figurative. Combining it with DNA just compounds the poor usage. So when Reploids are said to have souls, or "DNA Souls", it's another step towards them being treated nondistinct from humans without much explanation. Nevertheless, I'll admit it's a minor nitpick. My bigger point ties in better with my pet peeve of DNA data in Reploids.

Anyone who has played X8 or MHX ought to know that the answer is both.  The only excuse to not pick that up is failure to think through a story that is presented in the context of an action game; similar to how everyone ignores Zero's capsule dialogue when criticizing his account of his return in X6.  Many players, unfortunately, have a tendency to look no deeper than the surface.  "If a virus makes Reploids go Maverick then it MUST be the only reason they go Maverick."  Such a statement is justified only by naivety.  The unknowns of the possible causes of Maverick behavior have been touched upon in MHX, X4, X8, and XCM.  All of these titles make it clear that "Maverick" is in fact a label, well before it became as loosely used as it was in the Zero series.

But the games haven't really done much with that over the course of the series. The question's been suggested in games like X4, X5, X8, CM, and now in the latest remake that hasn't gone anywhere, but there's been no climax or struggle based on challenging the meaning of the term "Maverick". It's always been a foregone conclusion until X8, but even then it underlines the flaws of how the term "Maverick" has been used: "We have the power to go Maverick at will," is like saying "We have the power to go insane at will!" What the hell does that mean? That you have true free will? That would've been a big revelation had we been told that Reploids, even X and Zero, don't have "true" free will, and Mavericks like Sigma did. It's good that there were at least a few games that touched upon it over the course of the entire series, but there wasn't enough focus on it.

The same acid you're describing with a virus before computers were invented.  Repurposing terms for new technology is a very real practice in the world.

But again, even assuming literal use, this is an acid that is the oldest known storage medium in existence, to which man-made analogues actually exist in the real world.  I'm sorry, Treleus, but I can't see that as anything but nitpicking.

It's because you're focusing too much on the term and not on what it indicates, for me at least: that the story's just not a very good one. As far as dark sci-fi goes, I think it can do a lot better to compete with sci-fi stories like Blade Runner or Ghost in the Shell, which directly observe these questions about sentience in humanity vs technology. The whole DNA thing was just a nitpick that got me started, and admittedly the use of the term isn't the problem. It's how poorly the term and it's usage have been explained in the context of the X series. Nevertheless, I'll admit I did start all of this with just nitpicking. That's true enough.

Besides, I've always seen the theme of how Reploids compare and contrast to humanity as being more a matter of mentality than anatomy.

But what interests me is how the anatomy gives birth to the mentality. You can't have one without the other.

Offline Blackhook

  • Dropper of ships
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 7587
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #67 on: July 15, 2012, 07:23:13 PM »
Quote
We supplied all relevant "cold hard facts" to the highly philosophical question of reviving from the dead quite some time ago.  If you feel there is more to explore, by all means, offer some follow-up questions.

And that's my point...if you have nothing else to add, the why derail the thread more?

Offline Hypershell

  • needs DRAGONITE POWER!
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 5222
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Steel in Zee Head
    • View Profile
    • Get equipped with Hyper's DA
Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #68 on: July 20, 2012, 05:31:04 AM »
Because intelligent discussion has a tendency to branch out after a certain amount of dialogue has passed.  People who actually socialize in the real world (I hear stories) tend to take notice of that.

First of all, you and I are not Mods here, and if you truly feel the thread is derailed then the proper course of action is to request it be locked.  But there's a BIG difference between being disruptive and following natural progression.  It's called a train of thought.  The current discussion is derived from your original question (revival outlawed>DNA revival outlawed>Reploid DNA>Human/Reploid correlations), and not only that, but philosophical questions by their very nature tend to invoke a broad level of discussion (and I think, "What is wrong with reviving the dead" certainly qualifies as a philosophical question).  Rather than start multiple new threads in which we are in reality quoting and responding to this thread, it makes more sense to avoid cluttering the board and pursue logical discussion here, provided of course that such can be done without interfering with other ongoing discussions to your original point.  Which is why all involved back then posted to that point to the best of their ability before elaborating on the finer related details.  Again, if you or anyone else feels there is more to discuss, then by all means do so.  I'd be happy to contribute to such discussion.  But how can you complain about derailing a topic when you yourself have nothing to add or to ask?

Anyways, it's late, and I don't have time to read/respond to Treleus.  I'll have to tackle that one later.

"Your pants are on fire."

Offline The Great Gonzo

  • Master's Unit
  • *
  • Posts: 3414
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #69 on: July 20, 2012, 09:50:56 AM »
Quote
Again, if you or anyone else feels there is more to discuss, then by all means do so.  I'd be happy to contribute to such discussion.

I think I've got something--how robots/Reploids would regard sex, or more importantly, how they regard ignorant humans who think sex equals humanity.

On top of not knowing which humans will turn you into a pile of spare parts just for existing (see: Emerald Spears), there's a chance that your human significant other could dump you because you're physically incapable of putting out (aside from squicky workarounds that I won't get into here).

You were basically told that your sentience, free will/self-determination, compassion, and other human traits weren't good enough, because you lacked gentials. Possibly even to your face. Hell, it wouldn't have to be your significant other.

I wouldn't be surprised if the topic of sex was a massive berserk button for robots and X-era Reploids.

Offline Blackhook

  • Dropper of ships
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 7587
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #70 on: July 20, 2012, 11:21:37 AM »
I wonder what kind of couple Andrew and his wife were...I mean, he was willing to get rebuild into an old man for her.

Quote
First of all, you and I are not Mods here, and if you truly feel the thread is derailed then the proper course of action is to request it be locked.  But there's a BIG difference between being disruptive and following natural progression.  It's called a train of thought.  The current discussion is derived from your original question (revival outlawed>DNA revival outlawed>Reploid DNA>Human/Reploid correlations), and not only that, but philosophical questions by their very nature tend to invoke a broad level of discussion (and I think, "What is wrong with reviving the dead" certainly qualifies as a philosophical question).  Rather than start multiple new threads in which we are in reality quoting and responding to this thread, it makes more sense to avoid cluttering the board and pursue logical discussion here, provided of course that such can be done without interfering with other ongoing discussions to your original point.  Which is why all involved back then posted to that point to the best of their ability before elaborating on the finer related details.  Again, if you or anyone else feels there is more to discuss, then by all means do so.  I'd be happy to contribute to such discussion.  But how can you complain about derailing a topic when you yourself have nothing to add or to ask?

If half of the post were pointless bickering about terms then yes, I feel like this thread has served its purpose. Otherwise I don't mind the discussion. Also the fact that I don't write in this thread doesn't mean that I am not reading it.

Offline Flame

  • The obsessive
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 15914
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #71 on: July 20, 2012, 06:32:23 PM »
Quote
Possibly even to your face
Or lack thereof
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Hypershell

  • needs DRAGONITE POWER!
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 5222
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Steel in Zee Head
    • View Profile
    • Get equipped with Hyper's DA
Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #72 on: July 28, 2012, 05:17:05 AM »
But the games haven't really done much with that over the course of the series. The question's been suggested in games like X4, X5, X8, CM, and now in the latest remake that hasn't gone anywhere, but there's been no climax or struggle based on challenging the meaning of the term "Maverick". It's always been a foregone conclusion until X8
First of all, criticizing because something never happened except when it did, is obviously invalid as selective reasoning.  Secondly, that's bull anyway, as Command Mission most definitely challenged the term.

"Didn't Epsilon tell you?  Only future generations can judge whether we are truly Maverick or not."

"Maverick?  You seem more Maverick to me, with all your stubborn nonsense about friendship, and your unwillingness to evolve."


A condition is not necessarily defined by its cause.  "Maverick" as was coined in X1 referred to mentality and behavior, the cause or causes of which were unknown.  The need to quantify such an intangible concept is the result of viewing Reploids solely as technology rather than as psychological individuals.  For an entity claiming to be able to "think, feel, and make their own decisions", that is a severe logic error.  And the fanbase is every bit as guilty of this as any in-universe character is.  While many games continued to touch on the unknown and intangible aspects of Maverick behavior (nearly every game from X4 onward), there were many both in the story and in our real world who simply chose to ignore it all, and X8 blew the whistle on both.

Quote
but even then it underlines the flaws of how the term "Maverick" has been used: "We have the power to go Maverick at will," is like saying "We have the power to go insane at will!" What the hell does that mean? That you have true free will? That would've been a big revelation had we been told that Reploids, even X and Zero, don't have "true" free will, and Mavericks like Sigma did. It's good that there were at least a few games that touched upon it over the course of the entire series, but there wasn't enough focus on it.
Lumine's ramblings aren't supposed to make THAT much sense; why do you think Zero dismisses him so easily?  The most generous description of his speech is that he's bragging about doing the same thing Sigma and Vile did, and they're both first-generation Reploids.

There's a philosophical question of where you draw the line between "insanity" and "freedom from conformity".  It should come as no surprise that the insane would draw that line a bit differently than the rest.

Quote
But what interests me is how the anatomy gives birth to the mentality. You can't have one without the other.
This falls along the same lines that Flame was getting at with Gonzo, I think.

Let me ask you something, Reploids may have wings, tails, horns, beaks, etc.  Any of that may make them "less human" in appearance, but does it make them less human in mentality?

The thing about Reploid anatomy, which is a big problem when debating it, is that it's not standardized.  In Command Mission we saw an otherwise human-shape Reploid that lacked legs.  We saw others that showed skin at the thighs.  Assuming the *a'hem* hardware design exists, a Reploid may or may not be built with it just as easily as they may or may not be built with hair.

I wonder what kind of couple Andrew and his wife were...I mean, he was willing to get rebuild into an old man for her.
Happy and dedicated, if nothing else.  After all, difference in aging is a long-term issue that would only surface after they had already been together for many years.  Love in the long term is a funny thing, in that time always provides it with new challenges.  The insecurities that led to Andrew's remodeling are simply a fantasy twist on a midlife crisis, as I see it.  Your mate grows old, you don't, your mate feels unattractive, loses confidence in their "worth" to you, and you do what you can to reinforce how valuable they are to you.

Quote
If half of the post were pointless bickering about terms then yes, I feel like this thread has served its purpose. Otherwise I don't mind the discussion. Also the fact that I don't write in this thread doesn't mean that I am not reading it.
Well, that's why I limited the number of points in Treleus's post that I would respond to.  Defining terms is important, but yeah, there comes a point where you are simply stirring over personal interpretation, which is senseless, I agree.

"Your pants are on fire."

Offline Flame

  • The obsessive
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 15914
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #73 on: July 28, 2012, 08:59:03 AM »
Old Andrew's tales are always such a sweet read. make me awww every time.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Treleus

  • B-Class Hunter
  • *
  • Posts: 420
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2012, 07:39:04 AM »
First of all, criticizing because something never happened except when it did, is obviously invalid as selective reasoning.  Secondly, that's bull anyway, as Command Mission most definitely challenged the term.

"Didn't Epsilon tell you?  Only future generations can judge whether we are truly Maverick or not."

"Maverick?  You seem more Maverick to me, with all your stubborn nonsense about friendship, and your unwillingness to evolve."

You've got a point, but there's not much of a resolution to that challenge. Same with X4 and X8. Another thing that leaves me wanting is that not only was it not a persistent theme, it comes and goes right before the very end of the game, between the last battle and the last scene.

A condition is not necessarily defined by its cause.  "Maverick" as was coined in X1 referred to mentality and behavior, the cause or causes of which were unknown.  The need to quantify such an intangible concept is the result of viewing Reploids solely as technology rather than as psychological individuals.  For an entity claiming to be able to "think, feel, and make their own decisions", that is a severe logic error.  And the fanbase is every bit as guilty of this as any in-universe character is.  While many games continued to touch on the unknown and intangible aspects of Maverick behavior (nearly every game from X4 onward), there were many both in the story and in our real world who simply chose to ignore it all, and X8 blew the whistle on both.

But who blew that whistle? The mad man did. And you made the point later that it's easy to dismiss what the madman says, so what it is that X8 says about Mavericks in the end? That it doesn't mean as much as we were led to believe? That they're just insane? Basically the same thing that CM suggested. Also that the good guys win, so who gives a [parasitic bomb] anyways? Let's fighting love!

Lumine's ramblings aren't supposed to make THAT much sense; why do you think Zero dismisses him so easily?  The most generous description of his speech is that he's bragging about doing the same thing Sigma and Vile did, and they're both first-generation Reploids.

He's effectively no different than Sigma. Before there was ever even the suggestion of a Maverick Virus, Sigma played the same role Lumine did. This is demonstrated in no uncertain terms in MHX when Sigma talks of evolution while posturing himself as the harbinger of it. He's still dismissed as insane, so Lumine really just the second coming of Sigma 8 games and a side-RPG into the franchise. Basically, back to square 1.