Author Topic: Reploid reviving  (Read 12961 times)

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Offline The Great Gonzo

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2012, 09:50:43 PM »
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I'm perfectly fine with a robot race and a human race reaching a sort of biotechnological singularity, but treating them like they work the exact same way en route and not trying to explore that further disappoints me.

Agreed.

I've seen plenty of arguments in favour of robots/Reploids being "equipped" (mostly so that they can be "more human", which disregards their sentience and is really offensive to asexuals, like myself), and I just have to wonder...from a storyline standpoint, what's the point of them being robots/Reploids if they're exactly like humans (but usually with all the weaknesses and miscellaneous suck ironed out)? It's like a strategy game where all the factions have the exact same stats, abilities, etc.


(I think I helped derail the thread. D: )

Offline Blackhook

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2012, 12:14:13 AM »
I am proud of you RPM. *wipes a tear*

Offline Hypershell

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2012, 02:56:43 AM »
That's all well and good, especially from a perspective of time rather than plausibility, but there's at least one thing working against those observations: it's been established that Reploids are robots (androids, sentient machines, pick a term), not cyborgs. The fundamental theme and backdrop of the Classic and X games are that these are technologically sentient beings, not biologically or evolutionarily sentient. You could split hairs and say something like Reploids and/or machines are made up of molecules or could use DNA as a storage medium for machine code instructions, but at this stage in the continuity, Reploids are nevertheless more machine than human ... and yet perfectly emulating those sophisticated, human cognitive functions like love, fear, and cogito ergo sum--"I think, therefore I am". That's what makes them interesting, even with a hypothetical use of DNA as a storage medium, but only up to such a point where the uniqueness of Reploids as a sentient specimen is preserved relative to that of a human specimen. If the writers and the fans just accept conflating traditionally biological terms and constructs like DNA and viruses, or poetical psycho-spiritual terms like souls, then they risk glossing over what makes Reploids interesting: how can they be so human-like? How do Reploids succeed or fail to emulate human behavior, or more importantly, human thinking and judgment?

I'm perfectly fine with a robot race and a human race reaching a sort of biotechnological singularity, but treating them like they work the exact same way en route and not trying to explore that further disappoints me.
What you need to bear in mind is that the journey started in the Classic series.  So in X, we're looking at neither the beginning nor the end, but rather one of several midpoints.  While the specifics are often open to some degree of interpretation, X represents a "new generation" in robotics in that he established the independence of their consciousness from human guides, as well as the closest parallel ever developed to their emotional complexities.  That does not necessarily mean that the topic of a Reploid's consciousness has no further room to advance in its journey to mimick the more subtle aspects of human consciousness, though; X went largely unsurpassed in the latter of those two traits for multiple centuries.  The sharper, clearer distinction between X and first-generation Reploids was pretty much the entire point of Maverick Hunter X's story.  Advancements in Reploid personality naturally progressed over time but some distinction still existed over the ages.  Even by the Zero series there's still an arguably greater distinction made between humans and Reploids in their respective mentalities than in their outward appearances, most especially in Zero4.  Reploids have a pretty shaky track record when it comes to things like empathy and ambition.  ZX is the earliest game in which one could claim that the fundamental differences between Reploid and human mentalities had been overcome.

The physical side of Reploids and how closely they mimick biological life is not often touched upon due to it being largely irrelevant to a platforming action game.  There are, however, some key points worth considering.  Physical development of a Reploid's body is alleged to be a design possibility as early as Xtreme2 (among character artists, that is).  Reploid children exist in Command Mission.  Reploids consume Energen by ingestion during the Zero series.  Humans may be relatively indistinct from Reploids in regards to casual observation during the Zero series.  Between Zero and ZX several Reploid children are seen to grow older in appearance.  The human machine body is also known to grow and develop during the ZX series.  Finally, there's an NPC Reploid in ZX that references genetic lineage spanning 8 generations (thank Zan for spotting that one).

And then of course, there is Legends, where an entire planet's population is artificial in nature without ever realizing it.  The emulation of "natural" life was perfected, yielding a self-sustaining culture completely ignorant to their origins.  "Evolution" is not a viable theory if you still need to construct your offspring.

I've seen plenty of arguments in favour of robots/Reploids being "equipped" (mostly so that they can be "more human", which disregards their sentience and is really offensive to asexuals, like myself), and I just have to wonder...from a storyline standpoint, what's the point of them being robots/Reploids if they're exactly like humans (but usually with all the weaknesses and miscellaneous suck ironed out)? It's like a strategy game where all the factions have the exact same stats, abilities, etc.
See above on both mental and physical distinctions and how long they've endured.

Now I want to preface by saying that I sincerely doubt X is packing a smaller buster.  But you could just as easily apply your argument to devalue romantic interest among Reploids as you could sexual interest.  Likely no game will EVER tackle a Reploid's sexual characteristics beyond the secondary (again, see Xtreme2), where once again the same arguments could just as easily apply (What is the point of Reploid breasts, again?), but consider two things:  One, the possibility of a given design not make it a requirement in all Reploid models.  Two, the presence of any "equipment" on an individual Reploid does not make the use of it a necessity.  While I concede that I know nothing about your own body, I sincerely doubt you're going to tell us that asexuality exists only as a matter of anatomical coincidence.

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Offline The Great Gonzo

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2012, 04:51:43 AM »
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While I concede that I know nothing about your own body, I sincerely doubt you're going to tell us that asexuality exists only as a matter of anatomical coincidence.

Definitely not; IIRC the fellow(s) I was arguing with seemed to be equating true humanity (in the mental sense) with sexual functionality and activity, because apparently asexual and agender people don't exist/are sub-human (and no one took into account the lack of humanity in sexually-functional/active animals). Whether not it was considered more important than sentience, I can't remember.

I wouldn't rule out romance, if only because of Zero/Iris, but I'd like to think that it plays out differently than the human variety, because I find psychological differences between robots/Reploids to be interesting (and why I find most MM porn to be annoying at best, because those differences are rarely even considered).

I would like to get back to topic, but I can't think of anything to say about robo-necromancy that hasn't already been pointed out...

Offline Hypershell

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2012, 01:33:24 AM »
Neither can I.  *shrugs*  It's RPM.  Topics change.  The fact that we got this far without an ecchi pic is probably some kind of record.

I wouldn't rule out romance, if only because of Zero/Iris, but I'd like to think that it plays out differently than the human variety, because I find psychological differences between robots/Reploids to be interesting (and why I find most MM porn to be annoying at best, because those differences are rarely even considered).
Being intellectually provocative is not the purpose of porn.

Anyways, I should hope hope you wouldn't discount the ol' Zero/Iris factor since that particular relationship is canonical according to multiple books, most recently Mega Man X Official Complete Works.  What I meant is that such things are just as easily dismissed from the cynical standpoint of serving no "practical" purpose outside of emulating humanity.  But really, emulating humanity is the whole point; otherwise Light would have built Elysium units right from the get-go.  Creating others of equal value to ourselves helps us to better understand and appreciate our own subtleties, one hopes, to the betterment of both parties.  ZX is about as close to that ideal as we've seen until it all came crashing down sometime between then and Legends.

In questioning the validity of a sexually functional Reploid, you must first question the functional purpose of sex among humans.  There are three answers to that one: Reproduction, pleasure, and the consummation of a relationship.  I think we can safely agree that sexual reproduction among Reploids is out of the question for at least a couple of centuries.  Likewise, creating such a design for the sole purpose of pleasure is largely pointless and is the main reason that the casual observer is quick to dismiss the idea.  The third answer, however, is where things come into play, as it provides both an emotional and a sociological validation.  Now, it is true that in any given individual the idea of living a full emotionally developed life in the absence of sexuality is perfectly valid. However, that is but one possible course of life among many, and as your "human derivative" population of Reploids grows and the relationships grow more numerous and diverse within it, the topic of sex becomes an eventuality, whether the anatomical design accommodates it or not.  If it does, someone will ask why, and if it doesn't, someone will notice the difference, and ask why not.  Either way they will pursue an answer.  The important distinction to make, then, is that when dealing outside of the "practical" purpose of reproduction, it is humanity (or the "human" traits, if you will, of emotion, social structure, and curiosity) that justifies sexuality, not the other way around.

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Offline The Great Gonzo

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2012, 01:59:03 AM »
If I remember my reaction to that other conversation correctly, no one gave me an answer along those lines; would've been much less bitter if they had.


(On a side(?) note, someone pointed out that it would be "cruel" not to give Reploids naughty bits, and while I didn't actually say it, my reaction was something like "the same humans who would cry "Maverick" if a Reploid spilled some lukewarm coffee, would give them the ability to do it?". Not trying to disregard what you've just said, but in the context of anything before ZERO or ZX, "it would be cruel" seemed like a gigantic stretch to me.)

Offline Treleus

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2012, 04:57:00 AM »
Who says there's no seX in Mega Man X?

Joking aside, I get that each series in the Mega Man continuity demonstrates a snapshot of the robot society's development, but my problem with the X series in particular is with the devil in the details. That devil is disappointment, as it were. It disappoints me not just because they conflate traditionally biological terms with a race of purely technological beings (as opposed to a cyborg race like the Borg), but also because the overall drama bores me. Reploids are portrayed so much like humans and given scary epidemics like viruses and soul erasures that I fail to see what makes them interesting outside of X and Zero being badasses. Viruses are like, well, viruses; soul erasures are a fancy way of saying their hard drives got wiped and are now vegetables (or just clinically dead); and Reploid revival is necromancy/resurrection. Worse yet, Reploid revival and soul erasures could've been fleshed out a bit more, but they seemed more like throw-away plot devices or minor details based on their mentions in one or two games. The last two games put cloning in front-and-center, which is fine, but doesn't that almost make Reploid revival irrelevant?

I guess I'm asking too much from what is essentially an action game, but then if that's the case, maybe the action game is getting too dramatic and ambitious for it's own good. Or maybe it's just doing it all wrong and doesn't know what kind of story it wants to tell. Revenge, romance, tragedy, apocalypse, ascension to godhood, evolution. It's become a case of Flavor of the Day with the theming, don't you think? The central theme from X1 seems to have become largely irrelevant in favor of light by-the-game experimentation with a hodgepodge of different themes, all told with presentations that either interrupt gameplay or are interrupted by gameplay.

Offline Blackhook

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2012, 09:20:22 AM »
Heh, to flesh out these things you'd think they would turn Megaman X into an RPG by now...oh wait. Kinda dissapointing that Command Mission wasn't much different story wise than the action games

Offline Flame

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2012, 04:49:36 PM »
It was still definitely story heavier than most X games though.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Treleus

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2012, 02:03:25 AM »
But was it much better or more memorable than X1?

I pretty much consider X1 to be the gold standard of how to convey story in an action game like Mega Man X. Mega Man 7 gets honorable mention. Zero and ZX do a decent job, but I feel bogged down by the story moreso than I'm interested in it.

Offline Hypershell

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2012, 01:23:13 AM »
I don't consider X1's story particularly deep or interesting, it just HAPPENS to be well balanced and well executed for the purpose of moving an action game.

I mean, it basically goes: "Robots decide they're better off without humans, and our hero taps into some unknown power along the way."  Um, yay?  The deep central theme as I perceive it is growing more powerful to spite evil people who underestimated you.  And that's pretty consistently referenced across nearly every game in the series, possibly barring X7 and Xtreme1.

If you really wanted to, I suppose you could argue that further similarities with human conditions render humanity redundant thus referencing the former point as well (although, really, "computer virus" is a real and valid technological term, so I gotta call bull on criticizing that one).

The Copy Chip isn't really "revival" because in theory it was to duplicate only the body, for use as a temporary tool by a previously existing and completely independent individual.  The complications that arose along the way are the big twist, particularly since they challenge pre-conceived notions about viral threats.

(On a side(?) note, someone pointed out that it would be "cruel" not to give Reploids naughty bits, and while I didn't actually say it, my reaction was something like "the same humans who would cry "Maverick" if a Reploid spilled some lukewarm coffee, would give them the ability to do it?". Not trying to disregard what you've just said, but in the context of anything before ZERO or ZX, "it would be cruel" seemed like a gigantic stretch to me.)
Oh, I can certainly see and appreciate that line of logic.  It's a valid point.  But there are two things to consider on top of that.  The first is that there is a likely difference between mentalities of the individual designer and the dumb, panicky masses.  The second is that it is not in the least unusual for Reploids to design other Reploids.

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Offline The Great Gonzo

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #36 on: July 13, 2012, 01:49:08 AM »
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Oh, I can certainly see and appreciate that line of logic.  It's a valid point.  But there are two things to consider on top of that.  The first is the difference between mentalities of the individual designer and the dumb, panicky masses.  The second is that it is not in the least unusual for Reploids to design other Reploids.

Point taken.

I probably shouldn't keep referring back to that other thread if my memories of it are hazy, but I don't think anyone brought those points up, so to me, the whole thing came off as "it works because we say it works". Not unlike SMeyer and her sparklepires, really.

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If you really wanted to, I suppose you could argue that further similarities with human conditions render humanity redundant thus referencing the former point as well

Maybe that's why there's so few prominent humans in the X series that I can think of (D. Cain, the US-continuity-exclusive Bradbury K. Wells--assuming he was human--and Deneb and Phoebe if Rockman Online survives)?

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2012, 02:29:55 AM »
(On a side(?) note, someone pointed out that it would be "cruel" not to give Reploids naughty bits,

My reaction to seeing a reploid "nude" every time:

"How the steamin' hell do they take them off on their own?! It would've very much required a re-fitting from a battle body into a civillian one by machine."

Which confuses the hell out of me since underneath the "armor" would be nothing but wiring, metal, coolants, and all that technical stuff. Have you drawn a reploid getting caught "stripping down" yet?

Aside from Reploids and human nature, reploid "sexuality" hasn't been touched as otherwise the series would've seen a nice, big, letter "M" on the game box.
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Offline The Great Gonzo

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #38 on: July 13, 2012, 02:39:36 AM »
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Which confuses the hell out of me since underneath the "armor" would be nothing but wiring, metal, coolants, and all that technical stuff. Have you drawn a reploid getting caught "stripping down" yet?

Well, Rock Light can remove his armour, so it's generally assumed that most Reploids can, too. Even the less humanoid Mavericks, apparently.

That reminds me--Hypershell once brought up that X is the only Megaman who hasn't been seen out of his armour or even helmetless yet (he regularly went helmetless in Novas Aventuras de Megaman, but that's an alternate continuity). Strange, considering how "human" he's meant to be.

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #39 on: July 13, 2012, 02:55:25 AM »
That reminds me--Hypershell once brought up that X is the only Megaman who hasn't been seen out of his armour or even helmetless yet (he regularly went helmetless in Novas Aventuras de Megaman, but that's an alternate continuity). Strange, considering how "human" he's meant to be.
I don't recall that one, although I do often comment on Trigger being "more human" than the general public seems to believe based on Legends2's opening, so the topic may have come up.

It is one of the major continuity oddities to me, though; that Rock is capable of removing his armor (and at least frequently removes his helmet) and yet X, his successor who is supposed to be a revolutionary bridge in the gap between humans and robots, has never been seen to.  I mean, we already know that he sleeps in it, as does Zero.  When you think about it there should be no design reason that X couldn't sport a "casual" look, given that his armor programs are known to reconstruct his body to some degree already (certain armors include translucent parts and/or dimensions that clearly do not "overlap" with X's default armor).  Rock, by comparison, has no other reason to be switching body modes outside of the usual hand/buster deal.

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Offline The Great Gonzo

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2012, 03:06:29 AM »
Again, there's NAdM, but again, it's not the same continuity. Thinking on it, though, NAdM-X didn't seem to be too different tech-wise from Rock, the latter's 30-years-worth-of-upgrades aside, and he's the version of X who gets to remove his helmet...huh. (As far as I know, Iwamoto-X didn't remove the helmet either; Zero got to, though)

Offline Treleus

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2012, 05:33:18 AM »
I don't consider X1's story particularly deep or interesting, it just HAPPENS to be well balanced and well executed for the purpose of moving an action game.

I mean, it basically goes: "Robots decide they're better off without humans, and our hero taps into some unknown power along the way."  Um, yay?  The deep central theme as I perceive it is growing more powerful to spite evil people who underestimated you.  And that's pretty consistently referenced across nearly every game in the series, possibly barring X7 and Xtreme1.

Well, I wouldn't say it's referenced so much as it goes without saying, but the reason I praised X1's story aspect was because of how well it executed that basic narrative, not because the narrative was deep in and of itself. It could have been deeper, had more content, and probably been better for it, but then it also risks bogging itself down with too much story for a fun action game, and the more story you have, the more likely you are of losing your audience. It's worth pointing out here that the audience here is very different from the audience of moviegoers or the well-read, so there's some important design tradeoffs to be considered here.

I think it comes down to a well-crafted story (and yes, it's fairly subjective, but I'll just say "less is more" in this case), a well-crafted game, a group of very talented artists and composers to give the meat and potatoes a distinctly memorable flavour; and a director that believes less is more and unifies both story and gameplay together into an effective, interactive experience with that philosophy in mind. That's how and why X1 succeeds to me: it might not be working with much in the way of story, but it gets that and everything else just right. The story's not everything, but if you're going to have one and bank on it, then make it a good story. Or a handful of good stories, like an episodic TV drama or something. Just make sure the action ties in really well with the story, if only in just a few well-placed, well-choreographed scenes.

If you really wanted to, I suppose you could argue that further similarities with human conditions render humanity redundant thus referencing the former point as well (although, really, "computer virus" is a real and valid technological term, so I gotta call bull on criticizing that one).

Computer viruses are legit, so you got me there. Assuming Reploids are constantly connecting to any one of several wireless networks each day, and there are just some free-floating packets of data the most robust anti-virus or viral prevention mechanisms (like NoScript and do not automatically download cookies) cannot defend against, they could make themselves extremely vulnerable to Trojans, spyware and rootkits at any time. I can accept that, but while I guess we could take the next step and start calling source code DNA, I'd still say it just sounds really, really stupid and I don't like it. I'd much rather Reploids be treated like what they are: highly sophisticated, self-aware, silicon-based computers with robotic appendages, senses, and feelings governed by human-engineered computer programming, not biological or natural programming. If they must have DNA, then might they not also have an epidermis with hair and blood vessels surrounding a titanium endoskeleton?

Sorry if I'm playing the part of debby-downer here, but I don't mean to be taken too seriously. I'm just making the point that the more Reploids are explained in biological terms, the less their uniqueness shows. Just because computer viruses are a legit thing doesn't mean "Reploid DNA" or "DNA Souls" are too. I definitely don't buy it. I'm interested in how humans succeeded and failed in making beings like Reploids in their image with nothing but a box of scraps, not in how nature or the universe managed to become aware of itself through humans over billenias of time.

The Copy Chip isn't really "revival" because in theory it was to duplicate only the body, for use as a temporary tool by a previously existing and completely independent individual.  The complications that arose along the way are the big twist, particularly since they challenge pre-conceived notions about viral threats.

Something that could've been easily challenged anywhere between the onset and the aftermath of the Doppler incident without them. This is another one of my problems with the Maverick Virus: what makes a Reploid a Maverick? Is it the fundamental capacity for free will they've been programmed with, or free-floating viral code they can't defend against and makes them go all mad-cow and stuff? The answer could be either one, which turns this into a socio-political propaganda scare incident not unlike the McCarthy Red Scare. Unfortunately, the accepted narrative just became the latter and eventually led to magical Cyber Elves curing everything oh for [tornado fang]'s sake forget this I'm outta here--

*stamp* *stamp* *stamp*

*slams door*


*until the year 800X

Offline The Great Gonzo

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2012, 05:44:46 AM »
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I'm just making the point that the more Reploids are explained in biological terms, the less their uniqueness shows.

It wouldn't surprise me if this was the reason, at least in part, why humans and Reploids became more-or-less one and the same by ZX.

The Carbons could've had a hand in it too, but from what I heard, Capcom was once vague about Legends being the distant future or past, so they could've settled on "past" if they felt they'd written themselves into a corner...though that'd open up another can of worms regarding "humans" and robots, methinks.

Offline Flame

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2012, 08:32:17 AM »
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(As far as I know, Iwamoto-X didn't remove the helmet either; Zero got to, though)

He has, at least 3 times that I can remember, but he never actually showed X's head without his helmet. The closest we got was this

Im just gonna guess that since X was built primarily as a battle robot, Light just never really bothered to give him a civilian form, and instead concentrated on making him tougher, stronger, and more advanced in AI.

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I'd much rather Reploids be treated like what they are: highly sophisticated, self-aware, silicon-based computers with robotic appendages, senses, and feelings governed by human-engineered computer programming, not biological or natural programming. If they must have DNA, then might they not also have an epidermis with hair and blood vessels surrounding a titanium endoskeleton?
I think you are just overthinking DNA as far as the X series goes. Robot DNA is their source code basically. Contains everything that makes them who they are. Their personality program, their weapons data, even their appearance data. by using that, X and Zero can get new moves based on that Reploid's specific weapon ability. While Axl and New Gens, can use the appearance data to morph into that Reploid, with what i can only assume is some kind of molecular level nanotechnology or liquid metal technology akin to Double's.

You dont have to envision it as some kind of organic thing, after all, when robots blow up in the X series, they still have all kinds of metal junk in them, not guts. and yet still have DNA. If an energy based free floating computer virus can exist, Robot dna can too.

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what makes a Reploid a Maverick? Is it the fundamental capacity for free will they've been programmed with, or free-floating viral code they can't defend against and makes them go all mad-cow and stuff? The answer could be either one, which turns this into a socio-political propaganda scare incident not unlike the McCarthy Red Scare.
The very definition of Maverick, is, in the original japanese word- to be "irregular". Which is self explanatory. it means you are not functioning regularly. As far as X series goes, Mavericks are only those who malfunction due to some kind of bug, glitch or virus.

I can only recall once where it was used as a label, and that was X4. But X4 in it's entirety, was caused by one big misunderstanding between both sides perpetrated by Sigma and a traitor within the Hunters. The Hunter hierarchy had genuine reason to declare Repliforce Maverick. They were framed for dropping an entire floating city/highway thing- down on top of the City below, annihilating it. And when it's Colonel was asked to come in for questioning, he vainly refused, and even encouraged the Hunters to call him and his men Mavericks if they wanted. From there, the entire Repliforce declared independence from Humanity. They declared it was not about rebellion, but it just came across as turning tail and running away.

Only once the Energy Crisis started in Neo Arcadia under Copy-X's watch, did the term begin to be misused as a way to commit mass Reploid genocide for the sake of pleasing the Humans. And anyone who would dare oppose this, was also labeled Maverick. When Weil took over, he would declare anyone who opposed or decried him as Maverick, even if they were Human. Afterward, by ZX, the term returns to more or less the same meaning as the X series.

And by Legends, it's meaning seems to be a bit ambiguous, since those who go against the system are considered Irregulars, (Abberants in the English version)but we dont quite know the circumstances there, since it seems the system liked to keep a pretty tight leash around it's Robots, limiting their intelligence, not allowing them to think outside the system's parameters, so it's possible that simply anyone who dared to question the system was put down, along with any who malfunctioned. Trigger rebelled against the System on the Master's last command, and was considered an Irregular.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline The Great Gonzo

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2012, 08:39:02 AM »
He has, at least 3 times that I can remember, but he never actually showed X's head without his helmet. The closest we got was this

Never saw that image before; thanks for posting that.

Offline Zan

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2012, 10:52:34 PM »
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Computer viruses are legit, so you got me there. Assuming Reploids are constantly connecting to any one of several wireless networks each day, and there are just some free-floating packets of data the most robust anti-virus or viral prevention mechanisms (like NoScript and do not automatically download cookies) cannot defend against, they could make themselves extremely vulnerable to Trojans, spyware and rootkits at any time. I can accept that, but while I guess we could take the next step and start calling source code DNA, I'd still say it just sounds really, really stupid and I don't like it. I'd much rather Reploids be treated like what they are: highly sophisticated, self-aware, silicon-based computers with robotic appendages, senses, and feelings governed by human-engineered computer programming, not biological or natural programming. If they must have DNA, then might they not also have an epidermis with hair and blood vessels surrounding a titanium endoskeleton?

You seem too fixated on how things are named, rather than what they are defined as.

Offline Treleus

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #46 on: July 14, 2012, 12:18:22 AM »
Well, yeah. I think it's pretty stupid to say that Reploids have deoxyribonucleic acid, if only because of the misleading implications it makes by its very use, but again, it's just a symptom of the problem I see with the X series as a whole: a poorly written, poorly executed story with characters that are memorable for little more than their power-boom-slash-cool-armor sex appeal, at least after X1. They've got a lot of potential to be more and better than what they are, especially X, but with the current track record I've mostly seen that potential either failed or ignored. Maybe the answer for the series is to be less rather than trying to be more--more dramatic, more serious, more heavy, etc. I find the questions of the how's and why's really fascinating, but maybe TMI is TMI in some cases.

The X series is reputed to have a much darker feel than Classic or Legends in comparison, but when you strip away all that narrative overlay and get down to the bare bones of the matter, what do you really like about the games or even the characters? Is it that much different from the way the Classic games played? It was definitely more hard-hitting with real death and sacrifice (until revival's brought into play), but the way the story and the action played out against each other wasn't all that different: minimal text, some character interaction, all action. And it still felt powerful. I feel like there isn't much to lose from chucking out the present drama that's been constructed, with some of it's sillier jargon; taking the good ideas that can be salvaged it, and starting over. One of the smaller things is rethinking the technical explanations behind what makes a Reploid a Reploid or what helps define the world of 21XX, but the bigger picture is what kind of story Mega Man X tells and how well it tells it. It may not even need a grand story; just a handful of plainly serviceable ones that convey a great, dramatic action game experience. Something less wordy and more theatrical. Remember how Super Metroid handled it's narrative? It was a lot more show and little to no tell. Even mere tone goes a long way to define an experience; Alien is a great example of this amidst its louder, more overt siblings.

I guess to rap this tangent up a bit, I'll say that even the mere concept of Reploid reviving as a plot device, while not a bad device or theme in and of itself, is symbolic of what's wrong with the series: a lack of respect for the dignity and finality of death in storytelling. Also how too much patchwork storytelling can muddle a good action romp.

Offline The Great Gonzo

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #47 on: July 14, 2012, 12:38:26 AM »
To be fair, Zero doesn't just magically come back in X2, and there's still the chance that he won't come back right. (X5/X6 is another story in both English and JP, I think.)

Iris is still dead, with no hope of revival; same goes for Colonel, Middy, and Techno, for the same reasons (though it seems a lot of fans forget that Iris, despite hints that she still cared for Zero somewhat, tried to murder his ass dead, and have her come back as if she didn't and everything's all sunshine and rainbows). I think any other dead Reploids could potentially be brought back, but it's still not quite on the level of Marvel and DC. (At least I hope not, or else I just made an ass of myself)

Offline Treleus

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #48 on: July 14, 2012, 01:27:17 AM »
To be fair, Zero doesn't just magically come back in X2, and there's still the chance that he won't come back right. (X5/X6 is another story in both English and JP, I think.)

Actually, he kinda does. It's not like X1 left off with an end note that said, "Well, Zero's still backed up at HQ and stuff. He'll be back." He died honorably on the field of battle, and that's how the game ended. Not that I wasn't thrilled to see him back in X2, like everyone else, but now it just seems like a cheap deus ex machina the writers pulled out of their netherports.

Iris is still dead, with no hope of revival; same goes for Colonel, Middy, and Techno, for the same reasons (though it seems a lot of fans forget that Iris, despite hints that she still cared for Zero somewhat, tried to murder his ass dead, and have her come back as if she didn't and everything's all sunshine and rainbows). I think any other dead Reploids could potentially be brought back, but it's still not quite on the level of Marvel and DC. (At least I hope not, or else I just made an ass of myself)

And they were better games for it, especially X4. Unfortunately, I think the makeup of Xtreme as a grabbag of recycled levels and music, ported the Game Boy Color, undermined the impact those characters and their story had on the game and the X universe. Might've also been the half-baked direction of the game's action. It was sad to see Middy die, but nowhere near as much as when Zero died. The way that whole event was built up to and orchestrated, it was a real punch in the heart that galvanized your motivation to stomp ass all the way to the top. With Middy, didn't he die at the very end, after all had been said and done?

Offline Zan

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2012, 02:12:00 AM »
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Actually, he kinda does. It's not like X1 left off with an end note that said, "Well, Zero's still backed up at HQ and stuff. He'll be back." He died honorably on the field of battle, and that's how the game ended. Not that I wasn't thrilled to see him back in X2, like everyone else, but now it just seems like a cheap deus ex machina the writers pulled out of their netherports.

Within the scope of an action game that shows little beyond the immediate. Do you think such a recovery operation could have been mentioned anywhere but the next game's manual? It was actually described in there, until some tidbits of localization removed it in full.

The only true objection to Zero's revival not being part of the plan from the very beginning is the ending line: "those who sacrificed themselves for the victory will never return." But that wasn't in the Japanese script either.

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Well, yeah. I think it's pretty stupid to say that Reploids have deoxyribonucleic acid, if only because of the misleading implications it makes by its very use

The term is DNA data, though. For all we know it is coded like its biological counterpart. The information it contains is able to be converted from human to robot and vice versa as we established earlier. Using the term "DNA" definitely eased up the transition toward ZX.

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I guess to rap this tangent up a bit, I'll say that even the mere concept of Reploid reviving as a plot device, while not a bad device or theme in and of itself, is symbolic of what's wrong with the series: a lack of respect for the dignity and finality of death in storytelling. Also how too much patchwork storytelling can muddle a good action romp.

The story concept of DNA resurrection was born from gameplay dating back to X1, MM1 even. Remember the boss rematches? Besides, it's not like it's easy, or legal to do for that matter. Whenever it is attempted, the result is often a mindless shell of the Repliroid that once was.

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With Middy, didn't he die at the very end, after all had been said and done?

Middy died in the 'middle' of Cyber Mission's story, sort of.