Author Topic: Reploid reviving  (Read 11255 times)

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Offline Blackhook

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Reploid reviving
« on: July 06, 2012, 07:03:10 PM »
Something I never understood in the X series. Why was reploid reviving considered Illegal?

Offline The Great Gonzo

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2012, 07:17:22 PM »
Because someone might try to revive a Maverick? I dunno...

Offline Acid

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2012, 12:18:34 AM »
I would assume with AI getting closer to natural intelligence, reviving reploids would be considered equal to necromancy.

Offline Gaia

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2012, 03:19:42 AM »
Adding to what Acid said, there's an off-chance that reploid was a criminal "maverick" in his past life, increasing the chance of a maverick attack after the resurrection, though Zero's been "revived" numerous times thanks to dumb luck having his Personality Drive (and DNA Soul) managing to survive each time, similar to Sigma's survival due to him being a virus.
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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2012, 05:28:22 AM »
As I recall, it's specifically "DNA Resurrection" that is considered illegal.  Basically it amounts to cloning the dead Reploid's data as opposed to repairing it, two different things.  Zero is technically considered "repaired" because his Control Chip miraculously survived intact (even though his body in X2 is pretty much all new).

I would imagine that there is, justifiably, some fear in such DNA manipulation going on unregulated.  Creating Reploids from "nothing" that are alleged to be something they may well not be, that's unnerving enough.  But an unexpected error, whether the original subject is Maverick or not, can be extraordinarily dangerous.  See Copy X.

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Offline Flame

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2012, 09:20:58 AM »
Ill always remember that one chick in Command Mission who had that view on death like, you live on as part of a new Reploid when your parts are recycled. Thought that was a neat way for a reploid to look at death.

And yeah, DNA resurrection is illegal.

Basically, if you dont have it's original brain, it's dead Jim, you cant bring that back. You try, You break the law. Thats more like trying to drag the dead back from the netherworld.

see unlike Humans, when reploids die, you can just shove their brain into a new body if it is still intact. (Zero's done it at least twice)

Gate's Metal Shark Player in particular, got into big trouble because he was really into studying DNA resurrection, and Gate encouraged him. So they both got in trouble.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Zan

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2012, 12:21:03 PM »
It'd be nice if someone could supply the exact quote. If I recall right, the law might apply to Mavericks, not to Reploids in general.

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Offline Hypershell

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2012, 02:09:27 PM »
Ask, and ye shall get equipped with it:

"Metal Shark Player. An ex-investigator of Recycle
team. He studied recycling in order to create a new Reploid from Parts of disposed Mavericks.
His most important work was to analyze and control DNA data of the Mavericks. His analysis
ability was so great, that he succeeded in resurrecting dead Mavericks. Since DNA resurrection
is explicitly prohibited, the law instantly dealt with him. Gate was also interested in DNA
resurrection, so he encouraged him to collect the DNA data instead of stopping him. Metal
Shark would have continued if Gate had stopped him.
"

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Offline Mike Arcade

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2012, 06:45:34 PM »
I always liked Metal Shark Player, dunno why but him just bringing back dead mavericks has always made him an interesting boss for me.

You guys pretty much listed off the reasons why Reploid Reviving is illegal, though I've always found it weird that Reploids have DNA, even though they were created in labs, if you have DNA that means you are a living being, I never noticed how advanced the future in the X series and so on is, hell it makes you wonder if they can bring back dead humans as well, then again there is probably a law against that as well.
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Offline The Great Gonzo

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2012, 07:08:06 PM »
I think "reploid DNA" is just data, given an organic-sounding name to make them seem more not-reploid.

Offline Align

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2012, 12:05:28 AM »
Yeah, it describes a functionally similar concept, but isn't similar in physical composition or anything (in fact reploid DNA isn't really physical at all).

Offline Hypershell

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2012, 07:28:23 AM »
First of all, that's baseless speculation.  To say they are functionally alike but different in composition is to merely split hairs over the storage medium, which in the case of Reploid DNA, we know nothing about (the "function" of DNA is information storage via a four base system).  Secondly, assuming they are different, then at the very least one must be capable of mapping the other, or else Model A would be unable to copy a human Mega Man.

The idea of utilizing or mimicking biological information processing for technological purposes is a relatively common theme in sci-fi, so I don't know why Reploid DNA throws people for a loop.  Just off the top of my head, there's Kiryuu's DNA computer (Godzilla) and Voyager's bio neural gel packs (Star Trek).

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Offline The Great Gonzo

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2012, 08:12:40 AM »
Quote
The idea of utilizing or mimicking biological information processing for technological purposes is a relatively common theme in sci-fi, so I don't know why Reploid DNA throws people for a loop.

I think it's 'cuz they're inorganic robots.

(...I'll bet that at least some of them are the same people drawing/writing MM porn without a hint of irony.)

Offline Zan

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2012, 01:15:52 PM »
Quote
Ask, and ye shall get equipped with it:

"Metal Shark Player. An ex-investigator of Recycle
team. He studied recycling in order to create a new Reploid from Parts of disposed Mavericks.
His most important work was to analyze and control DNA data of the Mavericks. His analysis
ability was so great, that he succeeded in resurrecting dead Mavericks. Since DNA resurrection
is explicitly prohibited, the law instantly dealt with him. Gate was also interested in DNA
resurrection, so he encouraged him to collect the DNA data instead of stopping him. Metal
Shark would have continued if Gate had stopped him."

So, DNA ressurection is explicitly prohibited, but the biggest problem with it is reviving Irregulars. Gotcha.

Kinda odd, though, since Dr. Vile and Neo Arcadia do it so regularly.

Quote
I've always found it weird that Reploids have DNA

DNA Program
Program that makes up the characteristics of a repliroid. Zero's Learning ability utilizes this, but Axl's ability to completely copy a repliroid is rare.

Erasure
The phenomenon where a repliroid's operation program disappears all the sudden. An erased repliroid loses all consciousness, reduced to being like so much scrap iron. During the Nightmare Incident, a phenomenon similar erasure happened to Isoc.

DNA Soul
A repliroid's operational [mobilization/movement] DNA program that has been pulled out. It appears that Berkana took the souls from the erased repliroids and inserted them for use in the bodies of Iregulars.

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Offline Align

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2012, 03:06:33 PM »
First of all, that's baseless speculation.  To say they are functionally alike but different in composition is to merely split hairs over the storage medium, which in the case of Reploid DNA, we know nothing about (the "function" of DNA is information storage via a four base system). Secondly, assuming they are different, then at the very least one must be capable of mapping the other, or else Model A would be unable to copy a human Mega Man.

The idea of utilizing or mimicking biological information processing for technological purposes is a relatively common theme in sci-fi, so I don't know why Reploid DNA throws people for a loop.  Just off the top of my head, there's Kiryuu's DNA computer (Godzilla) and Voyager's bio neural gel packs (Star Trek).
They're functionally similar only in that they both describe the shape and workings of a being.

It might admittedly be a little too generic to say they're "functionally similar" from that alone, but it's the only way I could see why the name "DNA" was used, since normal DNA is used to shape an organic being as it grows, and it's a minor plot point in later series that reploids do not physically grow.

As Zan notes, there's DNA programs and DNA souls, and they're kind of distinct things (a DNA soul is a specific DNA program of a reploid, that has been pulled out) - as such I don't think it's unreasonable to think just "DNA" in the context of reploids describes their entire physical composition, in the form of data in cyberspace, since altering data in cyberspace also alters reality as we see it - otherwise it's hard to explain how Axl copying DNA leads to him changing his shape, rather than his mind.

As for mapping one to another, sure, why not. They don't need to be similar for that, just accurately translated.

So... I suppose it IS a whole lot of speculation, but mostly based on reasoning out some way of making the logic behind the stuff work together. It's more fun if it makes sense, to me, rather than just saying "robots have DNA, just like humans" and leaving it at that. But then I favour harder sci-fi.

Offline Zan

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2012, 05:16:41 PM »
Quote
Secondly, assuming they are different, then at the very least one must be capable of mapping the other, or else Model A would be unable to copy a human Mega Man.
Quote
As for mapping one to another, sure, why not. They don't need to be similar for that, just accurately translated.

ZX alone provides more than enough precedence for the mapping of human DNA to Repliroid DNA programs. Albert's human form obtained a machine body, that DNA was not just embedded with the Chosen Ones (both Repliroids and humans with machine bodies) but also inherited by his human ancestors and converted into Ashe's machine body. And all that's before mentioning that humans can be converted into Cyber Elves like Repliroids can.

Quote
As Zan notes, there's DNA programs and DNA souls, and they're kind of distinct things (a DNA soul is a specific DNA program of a reploid, that has been pulled out) - as such I don't think it's unreasonable to think just "DNA" in the context of reploids describes their entire physical composition, in the form of data in cyberspace, since altering data in cyberspace also alters reality as we see it - otherwise it's hard to explain how Axl copying DNA leads to him changing his shape, rather than his mind.

I'm not sure whether we should attest the form changing ability of the copy chip to a cyberspace program rewrite, or the natural variability of Repliroids as derived from X's Limitless Potential (the two might very well be synonymous given Cyber Elves). In addition to the above, we see similar effects to the copy chip occur whenever a Repliroid's DNA is rewritten by the nightmare, which doesn't really give us any answer.

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Offline Treleus

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2012, 05:21:34 PM »
If and when Archie Comics ever get around to writing Mega Man X comics, I hope they clear this bullshit up instead of prolong it or obfuscate it even more. I've never liked the use of the term DNA to describe anything about a Reploid. It sounds stupid, it's hardly ever explained well, and it's clearly misleading. I blame X3 for starting it all off with the Virus trend.

Offline Flame

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2012, 05:50:45 PM »
Virus was around since X2, and probably planned from the beginning, since the Sigma/Wily connection sure was.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Align

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2012, 06:38:20 PM »
ZX alone provides more than enough precedence for the mapping of human DNA to Repliroid DNA programs. Albert's human form obtained a machine body, that DNA was not just embedded with the Chosen Ones (both Repliroids and humans with machine bodies) but also inherited by his human ancestors and converted into Ashe's machine body. And all that's before mentioning that humans can be converted into Cyber Elves like Repliroids can.
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Quote
I'm not sure whether we should attest the form changing ability of the copy chip to a cyberspace program rewrite, or the natural variability of Repliroids as derived from X's Limitless Potential (the two might very well be synonymous given Cyber Elves). In addition to the above, we see similar effects to the copy chip occur whenever a Repliroid's DNA is rewritten by the nightmare, which doesn't really give us any answer.
I always assume any "magic" in MM is related to Cyberspace, since that's an established concept of the universe. It's something I can accept even if I don't really understand it at all.

Offline Zan

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2012, 08:39:50 PM »
If and when Archie Comics ever get around to writing Mega Man X comics, I hope they clear this bullshit up instead of prolong it or obfuscate it even more. I've never liked the use of the term DNA to describe anything about a Reploid. It sounds stupid, it's hardly ever explained well, and it's clearly misleading. I blame X3 for starting it all off with the Virus trend.

X5 first introduced the term "DNA" into the series. It was subsequently explained by Soul Eraser. The only reason there's so much misunderstanding is because we never ever seem to get anything properly localized.

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Offline Hypershell

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2012, 03:54:56 AM »
Well, there's that.  There's also the fact that ambiguity keeps the fanbase talking. :P

I think it's 'cuz they're inorganic robots.

(...I'll bet that at least some of them are the same people drawing/writing MM porn without a hint of irony.)
That's some fun food for thought, there. :V

But in all seriousness, that is an extraordinarily weak argument.  Humankind has been capable of synthesizing organic substances since 1828.  Urea, the first of which, is utilized in such "inorganic" applications as plastics, adhesives, explosives, and the reduction of air pollution.  I probably shouldn't have to tell you that's just the tip of the iceberg.

DNA in the literal, "biological" sense, is a molecule.  Plain and simple.  Finding a new application for it in data processing, when you consider that's WHY it exists in the first place, is far less of a logical stretch than programming emotional responses and self-awareness.

And add to the pile that man-made DNA already exists.

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Offline The Great Gonzo

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2012, 04:06:48 AM »
Quote
But in all seriousness, that is an extraordinarily weak argument.

Yeah, and it's pretty much the only one I remember seeing (if people accept it, they assume it's a fancy term for data, or Reploid-specific data storage or something).

I dunno whether or not Capcom's writing has led to such arbitrary amounts of "human" the fanbase will accept in their robots/Reploids (this, coming from someone who likes their robots fully-sentient/free-willed and sexually inert).

Offline Hypershell

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2012, 04:11:30 AM »
Kobun #40 would disappoint you.
(relax, it's a Protodude's Rockman Corner post)

Although, as with all "technological mimicking biological" discussions within the Mega Man series, the existence of Legends makes it a matter of "when", and not of "if" for other reasons.

In the grander scheme of sci-fi writing as a whole, though, anatomy and physiology at the end of the day boils down to one big complicated pile of chemical mechanisms.  Any can be replicated with the appropriate level of scientific understanding.  "Consciousness" itself is the biggest question mark in that phenomenon that we call life, so once we've crossed the bridge of creating THAT from scratch, I tend to not concern myself with how realistic the idea of mimicking anything else is.

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Offline Treleus

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2012, 06:41:16 AM »
That's all well and good, especially from a perspective of time rather than plausibility, but there's at least one thing working against those observations: it's been established that Reploids are robots (androids, sentient machines, pick a term), not cyborgs. The fundamental theme and backdrop of the Classic and X games are that these are technologically sentient beings, not biologically or evolutionarily sentient. You could split hairs and say something like Reploids and/or machines are made up of molecules or could use DNA as a storage medium for machine code instructions, but at this stage in the continuity, Reploids are nevertheless more machine than human ... and yet perfectly emulating those sophisticated, human cognitive functions like love, fear, and cogito ergo sum--"I think, therefore I am". That's what makes them interesting, even with a hypothetical use of DNA as a storage medium, but only up to such a point where the uniqueness of Reploids as a sentient specimen is preserved relative to that of a human specimen. If the writers and the fans just accept conflating traditionally biological terms and constructs like DNA and viruses, or poetical psycho-spiritual terms like souls, then they risk glossing over what makes Reploids interesting: how can they be so human-like? How do Reploids succeed or fail to emulate human behavior, or more importantly, human thinking and judgment?

I'm perfectly fine with a robot race and a human race reaching a sort of biotechnological singularity, but treating them like they work the exact same way en route and not trying to explore that further disappoints me.

Offline Flame

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Re: Reploid reviving
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2012, 10:45:07 AM »
Humans are machines too. Just made of different stuff. I dont find it a stretch for reploid DNA to contain their programming, weapons data and personality program and such. Also, do note that the way X and co switch hand from hand to buster or how Axl transforms, at least as far as MHX goes, seems to imply some level of nanotechnology too. i they have nano technology DNA, then its not a stretch at all.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.