The Mega Man Legends 3 movements

Sigma Zero X · 7119

Poll

If you did support the Mega Man Legends 3 movements, what was your most important reason?

I love the Mega Man Legends series, and I was looking forward to Legends 3
14 (93.3%)
I did not play the Mega Man Legends games, but I wanted to give Legends 3 a chance
0 (0%)
I did not like the Mega Man Legends games, but I wanted to give Legends 3 a chance
0 (0%)
I did not like the Legends games, I only supported the other Mega Man series
0 (0%)
I like the Legends games, but did not care for Legends 3
1 (6.7%)

Total Members Voted: 14

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Offline Sigma Zero X

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on: June 18, 2012, 04:19:36 AM
I wanted to do this poll for a while, but I could not bring myself to do it until now. So a lot of Mega Man players were shocked by the news of the cancellation of Mega Man Legends 3. However, some who did not like the Legends games were relieved of the cancellation. I want to see where the Mega Man fans truly stood in this issue.

For the purposes of this thread, some of the Mega Man Legends 3 movements include joining the Devroom in Capcom, joining the 100,000 strong campaign in Facebook, among others.

Did you really support the Mega Man Legends 3 movements because you really liked the Mega Man Legends games, wanted to give it a chance, or was it a stepping stone just to convince Capcom to release games from the other series instead?
 
I wanted to ask this because I really want to know if the future of the Mega Man games are truly worth fighting for in this ever-changing gaming age where the mainstream audience does not care about Mega Man as much as game franchises such as Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, Call of Duty, Grand Theft Auto, World of Warcraft, etc.
 
I'll just say that I love Mega Man Legends 1 and Mega Man Legends 2 a lot. The cancellation of Legends 3 really hurt me inside. My issue with the game, however, was the platform it was on. The 3DS would be a cool system for it and all, but I think that putting it on the Wii or Wii U would be more fitting and allow Legends 3 to utilize all of the system's capabilities.
 
With that out of the way, what is your stance on the thread/poll question? If there is an option that you want me to add, please let me know and I'll add it for you to vote on. Thanks.


Note to admins/mods:  If this thread does not belong here, please move it to the Legends sub forums.  I was not sure which part of the forums to put it on.  Thanks.

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Offline Phi

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Reply #1 on: June 18, 2012, 05:38:34 AM
I don't like any Mega Man series. I hate Mega Man. I do, however, like the color blue.

It's pretty obvious the first choice is the reason for all that hype. All the passion and contributions to the Dev Room was from everyone's history with the franchise, and they loved to be apart of creating this "dream" game. People who didn't play the series probably didn't care that much, but were still annoyed at Capcom's trolling to their fanbase. I swear, this is like the 60th topic I've seen over and over again.

And this belongs in the DASH board/forum.



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Reply #2 on: June 18, 2012, 08:02:45 AM
I'll just say that I love Mega Man Legends 1 and Mega Man Legends 2 a lot. The cancellation of Legends 3 really hurt me inside. My issue with the game, however, was the platform it was on. The 3DS would be a cool system for it and all, but I think that putting it on the Wii or Wii U would be more fitting and allow Legends 3 to utilize all of the system's capabilities.

It's not as if it was on the 3DS either, seeing as it was cancelled before it was completed and all. So it's not as if it matters what platform they put it on as the end result is the same; no matter what it never got released!

And honestly, Legends 3 was all hype. No one likes Legends really. Only person who really wanted Legends was Inafune (and even he didn't bother to see it through!) All that happened with Legends 3 was that the fandom, sensing Mega Man was quickly heading towards the grave jumped on the last chance for his continued survival... but alas, it was in vain.

Mega Man is dead now. He died in his sleep through the night.

You guys should've pushed for a real Mega Man game. Like Star Force 4.

Maybe then he wouldn't have died.

Star Force sold more than Legends anyway.



Offline Flame

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Reply #3 on: June 18, 2012, 08:27:54 AM
Joined the 100,000 thing in facebook and was already in the devroom before the cancellation.

I would have bought a 3DS for this game.

Also, many folks who ive met who never played or were never a fan of the Legends series, still supported the movement out of the fact that it was a Mega Man game, and Capcom pulled that bullshit cancellation out of their ass, and we just as a fanbase dont really like seeing a game in the franchise cancelled.

Even some folks from other Capcom franchise fanbases who were not even Mega Man fans joined the efforts solely out of disdain and disappointment in capcom for trolling this franchises fanbase.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


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Reply #4 on: June 18, 2012, 09:02:22 AM
Other than X2 and Dr. Wilys Revenge on Virtual Console, I haven't purchased a damn thing Capcom has released out of pure spite. I don't really care about any of their other franchises and personally I still hope they crumble because of pissing all over fans of anything except for Street Fighter.

I never joined any of the movements for Legends 3, I tried joining the Devroom multiple times but Unity's shitty system had issues when I tried logging in.



Offline Flame

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Reply #5 on: June 18, 2012, 09:05:10 AM
Oh man Unity's forum system is so annoying.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline The Great Gonzo

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Reply #6 on: June 18, 2012, 11:13:09 AM
I like all of the Megaman series and was excited for Legends 3. Nowadays I don't know what's more infuriating--Capcom's actions, or those asshats who sneer at and shame the fanbase for daring to care about something.

I think it reflects positively on the fanbase that most of them DIDN'T just magically "get over" MML3's loss two days later and forget what Capcom did. It didn't stop Capcom from pulling any more dick moves, but at least the fans didn't just blindly accept them.



Offline Da Dood

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Reply #7 on: June 18, 2012, 01:51:17 PM
Only played the first game, but I totally loved it and was looking forward to #3. My 3DS purchase was about 50% because of Legends 3.


Offline OBJECTION MAN

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Reply #8 on: June 18, 2012, 03:20:19 PM
Between this and Ono's experiences within the company, I'm ready to completely black list them.

No amount of fighter game revivals and crossovers will dent my resolve. It's all second hand or alternative means to play their games for me now. They are dead to me, and there isn't much they can do at this point, short of restarting Legends 3, that will change my mind.

I use to be a huge Capcom supporter. I've purposely not gotten their games second hand as a show of support. I've even dreamt of working there in years past. Now they will not see any support from me.


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Offline Sakura Leic

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Reply #9 on: June 18, 2012, 07:10:17 PM
Honestly I never really cared about the Legends series and I just got a Facebook and I honestly still have no idea how the Megaman 100,000 strong works so I technically haven't joined it but if I did it would have been for the other series not Legends.  

The only Capcom games I buy are Megaman games and the occasional handheld Zelda game until the DS came so yeah I haven't bought anything else because I don't have a PS3 and prefer RPGs anyway, not to mention I'm not very fond of fighting games since I suck so bad at them so yeah they aren't really getting anything from me.  Still optimistic that eventually there will be another Megaman game, but at this point I doubt it will be from Capcom and if it was it won't be good unless they actually decide to put effort into it, which I doubt they would.

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Reply #10 on: June 19, 2012, 03:46:53 AM
I regard the Legends series as the top of my PS1 library by quite a large margin.  Easily the most play time I sank into the system, with the only other game coming close being Armored Core: Master of Arena.  The cast has a special grip on my heart, and the Bonnes in particular are my favorite gaming villains of all time.  And of course, there's my username.  The games were wonderfully charming with an artistic attention to detail that you don't often see even today.  Unfortunately, they were a little ahead of their time, with 3D gaming in its infancy the Legends series has a few technically clunky aspects, especially in terms of control.  We the fans shrug it off but it does create an unfortunate barrier to generating any widespread appeal, and the collector's status (read: price tag) of virtually anything Legends-related only makes it harder these days.

The announcement of Legends 3 had me ecstatic, and motivated me to attend my first "nerdy convention" ever (NYCC 2010, and I am so glad I did; wonderful experience all around).  I followed the Devroom religiously, setting it to my homepage (where it still stands).  I'll admit I spent a long time thinking about how Legends would control with a Wii remote and nunchuck, but Kid Icarus Uprising ALONE had me sold on the 3DS, and combined with Legends put it on a fast track to becoming my favorite handheld very early.  And yeah, I even stood by the questionable decision of a "paid prologue" in the Prototype Version, figuring that in a shopping environment where $2 buys you a goddamn clock skin, a unique mission pack pertaining to a game not yet released would be a steal by comparison.

Having followed the Devroom as closely as I did I can tell you that the cancellation of the game was complete bullshit.  Capcom would sweep it under the rug as "games get cancelled all the time", but there's a bigger difference here than just announcing it early.  They touted the aforementioned Prototype Version as the fans having their say in the game getting the official greenlight (although the fact that this project didn't have the final approval to begin with is something that was not communicated clearly).  Director Eguchi called for our patience as they ran a month and a half overdue on the only non-ported e-Shop launch game...at all, much less worthwhile.  Despite a large amount of skepticism in such radically unfamiliar territory, we endured.  And then they just pulled it all away.  We know damn well the Prototype is done, some lucky bastards in Japan and one Nintendo Power guy got to vouch for it, but in some sick twisted way, Capcom decided that cutting it off immediately was the closest thing they could come up with to saving face after they completely lost their spine in the midst of a poor economy.

Well, touting the feather in their hat of unprecedented community relations without assuming any responsibility for such, that didn't work out too well for them.  The 108,000+ people pissed over Legends 3, along with the three people pissed over Universe, drew enough attention that Capcom's business practices came under the microscope (and the painfully transparent cash grab of UMvC3 didn't help any, either).  A lot of bullshit they used to get away with has been pissing people off a lot more than it used to, because their fans have simply had enough.  And despite Capcom's continued efforts to maintain the structure of their "community", it's clear that their soul is gone.  We listen to Sven beat us over the head for the last 11 months over how long video game turnaround time is, and then we find out that 6 months from Mega Man's 25th anniversary they still have dick for plans.

Mega Man is in the curious and unfortunate position of being alive to Capcom only as a licensing tool.  Archie, Bandai, Udon, people who "get" Mega Man and see opportunity among a passionate fanbase, they'll pay to put it to good use, and Capcom loves their money, which is why they will NEVER sell the rights to Inafune, Nintendo, or anyone else.  However, left to themselves Capcom just doesn't give a damn anymore.  They've spent the last six years trying and largely failing to figure out how to make Mega Man relevant to modern gaming again, and on the verge of what may have been their best hope, they simply gave up.

I wouldn't normally suggest boycotting Capcom, and I haven't changed my mind in that it would likely accomplish absolutely nothing.  But they only seem to have gotten worse over the last few months, and the few other franchises they have that I do care about, they don't seem to give a damn about bringing to the west anyway.  Capcom used to be my go-to example of a solid third party gaming company, but in a short year they've completely destroyed both their appeal and their credibility, most especially to Mega Man fans but also some hard hits in their other departments as well.  As far as customer relations go, they are in a complete mess that they need to salvage, not encourage.  But I don't think they even know, or care.

I tried joining the Devroom multiple times but Unity's shitty system had issues when I tried logging in.
True, that.  I attempted to become a Servbot as soon as they announced it but technical issues prevented me from doing so for several days.  After the game's cancellation the Servbot system went haywire AGAIN and I lost my original number.

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Offline OKeijiDragon

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Reply #11 on: June 19, 2012, 07:32:41 AM
I'm gonna make this short.

This Mega Man series was a big proponent in my PlayStation experience, alongside Mega Man 8 and X4. When there wouldn't be another official Legends title for another 10+ years, it became obvious that it would take a miracle to get third entry.

Then Legends 3 was finally announced, and I was overwhelmed with excitement and joy. I participated in the DevRoom, but not actually submitting anything (as you can understand, it was to prevent spoiling myself). Jump to July 2011. It gets cancelled. The result left me numbed.

I was always behind the 100,000 Strong campaign (liked the page, posted an ad at a local public building, made a 1UP blog article about that 25000 Servbot count rumor, which I think turned out to be false), but I honestly think to this day that the people behind it could have managed this better and in a shorter amount of time. I also think this game could have survived had Inafune-san stayed till it's development, but its become apparent that the people he entrusted the game's development to have failed him, the game and the fan-base. As of now, even Mega Man's status a living game franchise is in jeopardy.

And I must post this.
You guys should've pushed for a real Mega Man game. Like Star Force 4. Maybe then he wouldn't have died.


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Offline Sakura Leic

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Reply #12 on: June 19, 2012, 08:33:22 AM
Man Hypershell after reading that post and thinking about for about 30 mins or more I'm practically in tears now.  I mean it just really hit me like a truck for some reason and it made me realize that I still don't don't know where to stand on Capcom's many issues in general.  

Capcom has indeed wronged the fans to the point where most of us are fully disillusioned that Megaman is down for the count and is never getting up again like those help I can't get up commercials.  Most of Capcom is there in that room with Megaman face planted on the floor but none of them want to help poor Rock simply because he is old, frail, and they don't really see any benefit to actually help him and nurse him back to health. Inafune and a few others have helped him get back up and have been trying to cure Megaman but now that Inafune is gone Megaman's has deteriorated and his mind is not rational anymore.  At the same time Megaman is still being taken advantage of because of his inheritence from Dr. Light and Capcom steals that from him since Megaman is still a child at heart and still very naive and generous to a fault. In other words they'll keep Megaman alive because they get money from him but at the same time they won't try to nurse him back to health or transfer him to another hospital because if they do they think that he won't give them any money.  

When I look at the situation at Capcom I don't feel any rage or betrayal because they cancelled Megaman Legends 3, because as I said before Megaman Legends is probably my least favorite,of the series.  I feel sad because they lost hope that Megaman can recover or be fixed.  I get that Inafune was the only one who really wanted Legends and once he was gone there was no passion or vigor to finish it despite the fact that the proto type was finished and a good majority of fans were really excited by this and showed that excitement, and Capcom of Europe was clearly more ignorant than Capcom of Japan with that infamous statement, but that's beside the point.  It was really obvious that the majority of Capcom didn't care about the project because the fans in the dev room were doing most of the work, most of the content that went into the game. True it's not that unusual for fans to have designs submitted to Capcom and then those drawings become the inspiration for bosses such as the classic games like Megaman 8 and 10 or the Battle Network games since 3, but never has it come to the scale of the concepts in the Dev room.  I mean the fans voted on what the heroine in the game was going to look like and Megaman Trigger's new look along with the usual boss designs that Capcom asks for.  I can understand that the excitement of Legends 3 being made didn't really raise a lot of people suspicions about this but looking at it now it's painfully obvious.  

However something is bothering me right now, why did Inafune choose that point, in the middle of the development of Megaman Legends 3, to leave Capcom?  While it is true that Inafune before he left didn't do much in terms of developing the Megaman games anymore rather he provided ideas and guidance for the people who we making the games.  I remember Zan or Hypershell mentioning that while Inafune wanted the X series to end at 5 he didn't have anything to do with the writing of the game and left it to the story director people.  Meanwhile when he turned his back Capcom decisided to make Megaman X6 because the X series was still making a lot of money so the series continued against Inafune's wishes, though honestly I don't like X5's climax and multiple endings with what would have lead into the Zero series, but let's not get too off topic now.  My point is that Capcom and Inafune have had opposite views in terms of many things, Inafune was willing to try risky things while Capcom was not.

 If it weren't for Inafune we wouldn't have games like Dead Rising and a few others that escape me so why didn't he stay to see Legends 3 givin light?  It also occures to me that Inafune has big balls of refined steel, diamonds, pearls, platinum, lead, and oricalcum thrown in for good measure, he had to to admit publiclly multiple times that he hates the way that the Japanese gaming industry works in terms of making games.  So I'm thinking what if all the events leading up to the announcement of Megaman Legends 3 the cancelation and the point where we are now were orcastrated by Inafune himself since he knew that his own workplace was guilty of the disappointments he had in Japanese gaming companies?  Inafune connects with the fans but at the same time he knew the fans didn't really understand his views of why he doesn't like the way games are made today.  

Inafune said he left the company to get a new start and it was obvious that he was disgusted by Capcoms methods and Capcom was embarrassed that Inafune humiliated them.  So Inafune was probably sure that once he left that Megaman Legends 3 would be canceled and the fans would cry bloody murder at Capcom for doing so.  But obviously that didn't work because one while the fans are very vocal they can't really change how Capcom operates, 2 Capcom has been around since the old Atari and Commadore 64 days some of the people at Capcom's hierarchy must be older than Inafune and using my own mother as an example old people are as stubborn as a mule and the Donkey parental figure before them and 3 Capcom is a business as long they are making profits in all field's a few out spoken Megaman fan boys are the least of their concern.  Although most of this is mass speculation on my part I can help but feel that this possibly may have been Inafune's ulterior motive, it's out there but then again Inafune has shown in the past that he is indeed out there.

The article on Ono's hospitalization also made me curious of why Capcom allowed Ono to make Street Fighter 4, granted Inafune allowed it and this was before Inafune left, everyone was so reluctant of him making the game since is was using so many of Capcom's resources and no one was willing to help hi, it's very similar to Megaman Legend's 3 developement.  It could be a simple fact that people always love Street Fighter but I bet that the execs at Capcom were hoping that Street Fighter 4 would ride the gravey train that Super Smash Brothers Brawl made, and they were right.  Not only that but since Street Fighter 4 was a rousing success and so now Capcom realized that fighting games selled like hotcakes, which lead to the localization of Tastsunoko vs Capcom, the surprised development of Marvel vs Capcom 3, the recent Street Fighter X Tekken, and the infamous DLC enhancements.  Now if Ono did the same thing as Inafune and left while the was in developement then obviously the same thing that happened to MML 3 could have happened to SF4 and the fans would have raged then too.  But obviously Ono wouldn't want that since he loves Street Fighter too much and knew that such a decision would amound to nothing.  Or maybe that's just my dislike of over rated Fighting games talking, I like MvC 3 and Blazblue but you have to admit the fighting game craze has spread far, especially for Capcom.

Now I'm not saying that Capcom is so wretched since they cancelled MML 3 and that Inafune was right, Capcom is a business but it's also a business that has to support it's workers in a horrible economy as well.  In a way while done with the most horrible timing possible along with Capcom's cowardice the decision to cancel MML 3 did make sense, in a bad economy it's very hard for some something with high risk would end well.  True it had a lot support but at the same time I think Inafune's decision to develope Legend's 3 was a bit too soon and too late at the same time, the 3DS today still has mixed results due to a lacking game library and the era or the Wii is near it's end with the Wii U still in infancy.  I mean MML 3 could of had a dark horse success, it's not unusual, but if you think about it makes sense.  MML is definitely the most obscure of the Megaman series, heck I didn't even know it was called Megaman Legends or had a sequel until I came to this forum 5 years ago!  I only knew it as Megaman 64 a game with interesting characters and premise but very slippery controls.  In fact back then the game was still pretty rare, my brother rented it but I didn't remember seeing it in stores that much.  So it's no wonder Capcom had such low faith in Legends, it just didn't sell well and not a lot of people knew about it.  

Capcom's policy on not trying new things also has taken a toll on Megaman too, you have to admit the gameplay is getting stale for a 2d platformer and Megaman is no Mario. Speaking of Mario I'm curious about Nintendo, it works very much like Capcom, they rarely try new things with their franchises and yet except for Star Fox, Metroid Other M and the other obscure series their formula works, why is that?  Is it because they cater to newer generations while Capcom caters to a niche group of older fans?  That's the only thing that makes sense.

Namco is another thing that makes me curious before many of the Tales games don't make it out of the states yet now some do fall through the cracks now, but will that effect other indie series like God Eater?  God Eater is Namco's version of Monster Hunter, only it is actually playable as a single player campaign and has a story, unfortunately I don't know how the series is doing in America since it was unfortunately released at the same time as Dissida Duodecim or 2012 or 012 or whatever it's called.  I know there is a sequel in the works but will that make it to American shores?  How much do modern gaming companies care about their fans and games and what for, is it for fun or profit?  I hate to think it's not for fun but most do it for profit now or at least 50/50 which fine, that's how a business works and no one not even me would have it any other way.

I know this was very long and most likely you guys aren't going to read it especially at the end and with my wild mass guessing but I'm wrapping up here.  What I'm saying is don't hate Capcom just because they cancelled something you guys wanted so blindly, think about the reasons and the thought processes of each person involved and if MML 3 was released would it have made everyone's expectations when Capcom was init half way.  At the same time is hating Capcom and boycotting it worth it in the long run if they don't see support and many get laid offed in the current ecomnomy?  Me I don't know what Capcom is going to do and I'm really worried about them for the workers and the gamers sake.  However in all this sea of doubt and uncertainty I still think that the Blue Bombmer will rise from the depths of hell one way or another, he will be healthy again.  I don't know how, and I may have my nostalgia goggles on too tight but I sure as hell ain't giving up on the Blue Bomber anytime soon, BEACAUSE I LIKE HIM BECAUSE HE'S BLUE DAMMIT!  If Sega can dig them selves out the ditch they dug them selves into and Duke Nukem Forever was released in a blue moon moment, even if the game was bloody horrible, then I'm sure as heck that Megaman and Capcom along with him will they're way since this is the series where death is a load of bull until the series is done and that destiny can screw themselves then anything is possible in my eyes!  FIGHTING ON MEGAMAN FOR GREAT JUSTICE, EVER LASTING PEACE AND WITH EXTREME PREJUDICE DUDE!

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Offline OBJECTION MAN

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Reply #13 on: June 19, 2012, 11:33:59 AM
Regarding Inafune's leaving, I think he honestly felt there wasn't a chance of cancellation.

Think about this. Legends 3 so far has been a huge money sink for Capcom. The amount of resources needed to start development of a new engine for the 3DS, combined with the whole team working on this, in a prototype fashion. The cost of the dev room, and all it's components. The cost of voice actors even. Capcom sank some cheddar into this game as it was.

Now recall what Inafune said about Dead Rising. He basically used a tactic that is to breach a prototype budget forcing them to continue the project to recoup. The Legends 3 Prototype was READY TO SHIP. This was NOT an in house prototype. This was refined enough to be a stable piece of salable software. They PASSED that in house mark, and probably a long time back. Working at Activision, I know what in house prototypes look like. They aren't even close to stable or salable. There is no way Legends 3 didn't incur a sizable budget, especially being on a brand new console. The costs of the first games on a new console are always higher, and more labor intensive.

I truly believe there was no doubt in Inafune's mind that they spent way too much, and had enough of a public presence, for them to toss it away without being completely insane. Especially with a paid demo on the way. He knew the bottom line for them is always the money now. He was so confident he threw in his resignation, and said "I'll even come back free of charge to finish it up for you." It was the ultimate plan. He spoke their language, set everything up, and was going to let them ride the profit train on his dime.

Now, do you recall when we learned about this? Inafune stated the response he got back was "That won't be necessary." Think now, when would this have been? Not before his resignation. The only logical time is just immediately after he put it in. I bet that Inafune mentioned it right in his resignation notice, when addressing the board. They were waiting for him to do this, and they willingly sacrificed the dev costs of Legends 3 just to spite him.

Perhaps having been in the industry I have a little more insight into all of this, and to me its just painfully obvious what went on. I've even seen similar circumstances happen within the studio I was at. I have absolutely zero doubts that this is exactly how it went down. It all makes sense, both from logic and my own experience in the industry.


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Offline Flame

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Reply #14 on: June 19, 2012, 06:04:47 PM
Yeah I never bought the "its just coincidence its not out of spite" card that everyone pulls whenever someone complains about L3's cancellation.

Bullshit. It was totally out of spite and there's no way to hide that. It's too painfully obvious, when you take what you said into account. the amount of time and money dumped into L3 and dev. Inafune offering to finish it for free. Inafune having drilled Capcom and the ENTIRE Japanese game industry a new [dark hold] publicly while praising the western industry, and the oh so coincidental cancellation of BOTH of his pet projects RIGHT after he left.

To say it WASN'T out of spite and revenge is just blind.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline The Great Gonzo

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Reply #15 on: June 19, 2012, 06:19:25 PM
Oh, and remember how Universe was cancelled not long after the earthquake? I've heard people say that Capcom would never stoop so low as to callously take advantage of the disaster and cancel Universe/make UMvC3 so that they'd look justified in doing so (if that makes any sense)...

but sadly, their treatment of Ono makes me wonder if they even gave anyone time off then.



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Reply #16 on: June 19, 2012, 07:09:59 PM
I always heard the Earthquake/Tsunami as a reason for the MvC3 [parasitic bomb]. Releasing an incomplete version then charging you for the full game.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


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Reply #17 on: June 20, 2012, 12:59:17 AM
Man Hypershell after reading that post and thinking about for about 30 mins or more I'm practically in tears now.  I mean it just really hit me like a truck for some reason and it made me realize that I still don't don't know where to stand on Capcom's many issues in general.
*hugs* There, there...  Standby while I fetch you a hot beverage (it's not optional).

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While it is true that Inafune before he left didn't do much in terms of developing the Megaman games anymore rather he provided ideas and guidance for the people who we making the games.  I remember Zan or Hypershell mentioning that while Inafune wanted the X series to end at 5 he didn't have anything to do with the writing of the game and left it to the story director people.
That would be me.  It was a very different time back then and Inafune was still relatively new to the Producer's chair.  The only X-series game he produced before that was X4.  Obviously he was a key staff member in all earlier games, but it was only recently that the buck stopped with him.

The bottom line with X5 is that Inafune was eager to jump ship to the Zero series.  It is, truthfully, the series he REALLY wanted to make ever since X1, in terms of the darker atmosphere whose hero wasn't the "nice guy" stereotype.  He never touched X again until he got that out of his system; Capcom actually approached Inafune for Command Mission and he outright refused to do it (because he did not believe that X belonged in an RPG).

When Inafune speaks of how he had no time and no ability to involve himself as deep as he wanted to in development with Capcom, I seriously believe he is talking about a similar overworked condition as Ono.  And the single most telling sign of that to me is Inafune's heroine design sketch for Legends 3.  I mean...it sucked.  It REALLY sucked.  Inafune, widely regarded as "god" of the Mega Man franchise, put together the least popular design across the U.S. and Japan.  To me that simply says that his work environment was suffocating his creativity.  Honestly, when I read Inafune's criticisms of the Japanese industry, I think of Mega Man a LOT, including many games that Inafune himself was at the head of, and I have to wonder if he wasn't frustrated with being unable to give the games his best efforts (on the other hand, he is still pretty mystified by Powered Up's failure, so who knows...).

Regarding Inafune's leaving, I think he honestly felt there wasn't a chance of cancellation.

Think about this. Legends 3 so far has been a huge money sink for Capcom. The amount of resources needed to start development of a new engine for the 3DS, combined with the whole team working on this, in a prototype fashion. The cost of the dev room, and all it's components. The cost of voice actors even. Capcom sank some cheddar into this game as it was.

Now recall what Inafune said about Dead Rising. He basically used a tactic that is to breach a prototype budget forcing them to continue the project to recoup. The Legends 3 Prototype was READY TO SHIP. This was NOT an in house prototype. This was refined enough to be a stable piece of salable software. They PASSED that in house mark, and probably a long time back. Working at Activision, I know what in house prototypes look like. They aren't even close to stable or salable. There is no way Legends 3 didn't incur a sizable budget, especially being on a brand new console. The costs of the first games on a new console are always higher, and more labor intensive.

I truly believe there was no doubt in Inafune's mind that they spent way too much, and had enough of a public presence, for them to toss it away without being completely insane. Especially with a paid demo on the way. He knew the bottom line for them is always the money now. He was so confident he threw in his resignation, and said "I'll even come back free of charge to finish it up for you." It was the ultimate plan. He spoke their language, set everything up, and was going to let them ride the profit train on his dime.

Now, do you recall when we learned about this? Inafune stated the response he got back was "That won't be necessary." Think now, when would this have been? Not before his resignation. The only logical time is just immediately after he put it in. I bet that Inafune mentioned it right in his resignation notice, when addressing the board. They were waiting for him to do this, and they willingly sacrificed the dev costs of Legends 3 just to spite him.

Perhaps having been in the industry I have a little more insight into all of this, and to me its just painfully obvious what went on. I've even seen similar circumstances happen within the studio I was at. I have absolutely zero doubts that this is exactly how it went down. It all makes sense, both from logic and my own experience in the industry.
A slight detail in timing: Legends 3 was not considered in the least presentable (stable/salable) when Inafune left Capcom.  I was there, NYCC2010 (Inafune's last month of employment with Capcom), when the Legends-series video was shown and the crowd collectively groaned when no new footage appeared after the PS1 clips.  Inafune apologized, and stated that he himself vetoed the planned footage because he did not feel it was polished enough to show off yet, emphasizing that the game was still very early.

That having been said, what you're saying makes a LOT of sense, and I do have to wonder if Inafune didn't share that tactic with the Legends 3 crew when he left them behind.  According to Eguchi, the "unprecedented agreement" that was to sell the Prototype Version as a gauge of interest was made during the February 2011 greenlight meeting.

I've long held that Legends 3 was not cancelled out of spite because, had that been the case, it'd have been done away with as quickly as Universe was.  Even though MMU wasn't "formally" cancelled until after the quake, it fell silent immediately after Inafune's departure.  Literally, NOTHING HAPPENED with the game, the same can certainly not be said of Legends 3.  But then, I don't have any doubt that refusing to let Inafune help from outside of Capcom WAS done out of spite.  Then there's the fact that the Devroom itself was quite an obstacle to trying to do away with Legends (and Gregaman even referenced the internal tension with it when L3 was cancelled).  Inafune of all people was well aware of the lack of confidence in Legends, we can be certain of that, and I'm sure that between budget/development tactics and the Devroom he was banking on Capcom not wasting a ton of money to commit PR suicide.  And, yet, that's exactly what they did.

In the midst of a poor economy and the formerly questionable 3DS userbase (although, honestly, once 3D Land and Kart were announced, anyone with a brain stem KNEW the 3DS's time was to begin in November), I would attribute the cancellation of Legends 3 more to panic in a moment of weakness than to an ongoing vendetta.  But the more time goes on, and the more Capcom thumbs their nose at the ever-growing protest list, the more I have to wonder...  They knew there'd be hell to pay, they tried their luck at riding it out, they're having NO success in doing so, and the mere act of offsetting their losses with the Prototype could at least be spun as a peace offering, and yet they're not budging.  Why, if not because one way or the other, they're refusing to swallow their pride?

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Offline Karasai♪

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Reply #18 on: June 20, 2012, 02:55:34 AM
Um... I liked Legends 2 but didnt care much when Legends 3 got cancelled? WHY ISNT THAT IN THE POLL



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Reply #19 on: June 20, 2012, 03:51:08 AM
*hugs* There, there...  Standby while I fetch you a hot beverage (it's not optional).
Thanks for that because honestly last night I just snapped and made the longest rant ever, though it was more of an emotional outburst if anything.

 I'm just so tired of hearing the same thing about MML 3 over and over again "Megaman's dead, Capcom hates the fans, Capcom is full of greedy douche bags, etc" honestly I get that the Megaman community is not the same as it used to be after that day over a year ago but it is a bit much for someone who didn't really care about Legends that much in the first place, I'm sorry but it's the truth I never really cared for it.  Like I said of all the main series Legends is the most obscure and most unusual of the series.  It's the only fully 3D game in the series while the other game were strictly 2D platformer, Battle Network and Starforce excluded.  The series had a small fan base at the time but years later it obviously grew within the Megaman community but it's still more of a niche thing.  

When the game was cancelled I was mad for a few days but quickly got over it since Legends just wasn't my thing but obviously everyone else didn't and then the morale of the fan base just sunk lower and lower to what it is today. I can't help but think that a good portion of the people mad at Capcom aren't really that mad at Capcom or cared about Legends 3 and jumped on the ban wagon because it was cool in the Megaman community and soon pretty much shared that opinion one way or another.  I just got sick of it and left here for 8 months, but when I got back nothing changed at all, the activity in the forum just slowed to a crawl.  I really didn't get it, it was like the place went into a coma when MML 3 was canceled but now everyone just became lethargic.  The topics in the Megaman sections now are looking back at the series and seeing how things came awry but honestly before Legends 3 we knew the system Capcom was using wasn't perfect but we didn't care because we thought it was fun regardless.

When I look at Capcom now I wonder how the heck Sega got out of it's hole when it got in it.  Sega only has Sonic now but it somehow was able to do well with just Sonic but to me it really doesn't make a lick of sense when we got into the dark ages of Sonic.  Sonic Unleased was able to fix things miraculously and then Colors brought Sonic back to life and Sonic became awesome again.  I can't help but make that  comparison even if Capcom and Sega are different but I guess it's because Sonic has a much bigger fan base than us that Sega somehow survived. I know Capcom has much more than Megaman but Sonic and Megaman just seem to similar to me now because of how they had some lows.  It's why I just can't give up on Megaman, I know that it seems unlikely but I just don't like how a mass majority of people just gave up on this.

I know not everyone is like this now but it's just a bit much to me for some reason.

In the midst of a poor economy and the formerly questionable 3DS userbase (although, honestly, once 3D Land and Kart were announced, anyone with a brain stem KNEW the 3DS's time was to begin in November), I would attribute the cancellation of Legends 3 more to panic in a moment of weakness than to an ongoing vendetta.  But the more time goes on, and the more Capcom thumbs their nose at the ever-growing protest list, the more I have to wonder...  They knew there'd be hell to pay, they tried their luck at riding it out, they're having NO success in doing so, and the mere act of offsetting their losses with the Prototype could at least be spun as a peace offering, and yet they're not budging.  Why, if not because one way or the other, they're refusing to swallow their pride?
That's pretty much my thoughts of why they cancelled the game in the first place and it wouldn't have been blown so out of proportion if they didn't mention that the prototype was finished and was going to be used to gauge the fan response it would still be pretty dang bad but that just made it worse to people, which is understandable.  I can't but think if it was cancelled before the proto type was mentioned it wouldn't have changed much but it was really the straw that broke the camel's back which is why fans are still mad at Capcom.  

When Inafune speaks of how he had no time and no ability to involve himself as deep as he wanted to in development with Capcom, I seriously believe he is talking about a similar overworked condition as Ono.  And the single most telling sign of that to me is Inafune's heroine design sketch for Legends 3.  I mean...it sucked.  It REALLY sucked.  Inafune, widely regarded as "god" of the Mega Man franchise, put together the least popular design across the U.S. and Japan.  To me that simply says that his work environment was suffocating his creativity.  Honestly, when I read Inafune's criticisms of the Japanese industry, I think of Mega Man a LOT, including many games that Inafune himself was at the head of, and I have to wonder if he wasn't frustrated with being unable to give the games his best efforts (on the other hand, he is still pretty mystified by Powered Up's failure, so who knows...).

A slight detail in timing: Legends 3 was not considered in the least presentable (stable/salable) when Inafune left Capcom.  I was there, NYCC2010 (Inafune's last month of employment with Capcom), when the Legends-series video was shown and the crowd collectively groaned when no new footage appeared after the PS1 clips.  Inafune apologized, and stated that he himself vetoed the planned footage because he did not feel it was polished enough to show off yet, emphasizing that the game was still very early.
That definitely sounds like Ono's situation all right I really don't understand how Capcom isn't seeing how things are falling apart now with Ono's hospitalization and now Seth leaving.  I get the economy is bad but overworking people does not make things better but makes it way way worse.

Also when I saw Inafune's design for the heroine I really wonder if he ment to make Zero a girl in the first place, but even then the design looked very rough and I can tell he didn't have time to actually think about it.

Um... I liked Legends 2 but didnt care much when Legends 3 got cancelled? WHY ISNT THAT IN THE POLL
Thank you I was wondering that too.

Current playthrough: Chrono Trigger and God Eater Ressurection


Offline Gaia

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Reply #20 on: June 20, 2012, 08:23:39 PM
When I look at Capcom now I wonder how the heck Sega got out of it's hole when it got in it.  

After the '06 disaster they decided to hide in japan and wait for the western fanbase to cool off some steam with another long-running series: Puyo Pop. I think Capcom should do the same and go into hiding until they are in the clear with Mega Man Shapes as a comeback title, while hiding in japan with a mostly japan-based franchise.

Mega Man certainly ain't dead per-say, it's just one screw-up can raise hell. Fans of the hedgehog should know this by know, and it would be CERTAINLY great if it applied to other fanbases just as much. Hell, we haven't seen one major uproar from the Mario fanbase yet.

This morality issue is certainly that of what is similar to the sonic fanbase. I may be one of the lucky ones not to know of Sonic X-Treme's existance of the time, and I was one of the few that tolerated what I got, and I can go a year without Megaman and there's fangames (though most are of the MM9 scenario) so.. that must mean my sig makes more and more sense as time goes by, ooh joy.

Workshop/DA/YT/Photobucket なにかんがえてるの!?
So its about ass now huh? EVEN THE ASS HAS 'EXCEEDED'!

One mention of LEGENDS and everyone goes batshit.  :\

Yep, every time when someone mentions that game people get energized for an apparent reason whatsoever. It's like this everywhere else, trust me.

It got really messy to find my sprite and comic topic, so it's in my sig.


Offline Flame

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Reply #21 on: June 20, 2012, 08:46:38 PM
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Capcom should do the same and go into hiding until they are in the clear with Mega Man Shapes as a comeback title
Thing is, I dont think this will EVER blow over, or at least not for a long time. Not to mention a bad game is far from the same thing as what has happened with Mega Man. No matter the reception, Sonic still got games- which while of questionable decisions, still provided good gameplay and showed that they at least tried.

 The way everything was handled was absolutely [parasitic bomb] and pissed the fanbase off to no end. And now we hear of Capcom's horrible treatment of it's employees, with people leaving left and right, and it's just become too painfully visible just how profit driven they have become. But I mean, its understandable, but they dont even try to learn from mistakes anymore to improve profit next time. No, it fails, they axe it and move on, customer's opinions be damned. And its worked for them because there will always be people who blindly buy whatever they spit out, and like it, and demand more of it. There will always be someone who buys every single Super Mega Ultra Hyper Street Fighter with cheese fries on the side edition, or their latest cash grab phone Mega Man game or what have you. And there will always be people who buy their other products from their other franchises because hey, they are delivering on that end.

In the end, as long as they keep up their shitty business practices, or do something with their PR department, angry fans will NEVER forgive or get over Capcom and their recent actions. Because unlike Sega, they wont learn from their mistakes.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Hypershell

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Reply #22 on: June 21, 2012, 02:03:22 AM
Thing is, I dont think this will EVER blow over, or at least not for a long time. Not to mention a bad game is far from the same thing as what has happened with Mega Man. No matter the reception, Sonic still got games- which while of questionable decisions, still provided good gameplay and showed that they at least tried.
And that is the textbook definition of "hit nail on head." :cookie:

First of all, there was rarely if ever any real consensus what was wrong with Sonic or how to fix him.  But Sega never really stopped trying, either.  It probably is just a numbers thing; even Shadow The Hedgehog made Player's Choice, after all (though I dare say it's not the worst game to do so; looking at you, Star Fox Assault).  But in the midst of a whole lot of questionable quality releases, Sonic had a few scattered hits as well.  The handhelds, Secret Rings, and the bizarrely positive initial reception of Heroes.  Also, even though I realize I'm in the minority on this one, I still maintain that Black Knight is sorely underrated.
(Also as a matter of perception: Rare was the Sonic game that got butchered as badly as NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams.  That one killed part of my soul.)

I'm just so tired of hearing the same thing about MML 3 over and over again "Megaman's dead, Capcom hates the fans, Capcom is full of greedy douche bags, etc" honestly I get that the Megaman community is not the same as it used to be after that day over a year ago but it is a bit much for someone who didn't really care about Legends that much in the first place, I'm sorry but it's the truth I never really cared for it.  Like I said of all the main series Legends is the most obscure and most unusual of the series.  It's the only fully 3D game in the series while the other game were strictly 2D platformer, Battle Network and Starforce excluded.  The series had a small fan base at the time but years later it obviously grew within the Megaman community but it's still more of a niche thing.
Believe me, I get where you're coming from.  When the UMvC3 rage hit, it was very difficult for me to buy the "neglecting Mega Man" angle when the game included Zero, Tron, and a boatload of cameos; even if the premise of such a short-term update being released as a standalone was complete bull.

In terms of fanbase morale it's arguably worse now than before (or at least it is for me personally) because we were expecting Capcom to pick up one of the other series, which they don't seem to have much interest in doing.  Having jack squat for the blue bomber's 25th anniversary is a very troubling sign, as is the fact that the last good Mega Man news to come from Capcom internally really was the Prototype Version's announcement.  All of our glimmers of hope since then have come from licensees.  And even that's a crapshoot as to whether or not such morsels will escape their local territories (Project X Zone probably will not, which combined with the 3DS's region lock will likely be all the reason I need to attempt to hack it).

Quote
The topics in the Megaman sections now are looking back at the series and seeing how things came awry but honestly before Legends 3 we knew the system Capcom was using wasn't perfect but we didn't care because we thought it was fun regardless.
I remember on one of Inafune's more recent criticism of the Japanese gaming industry, somebody told him that they still liked Japanese games, and he responded with "You're thinking of the older games, and being too kind.  If they're really not up to the same standards, and you don't tell them that they suck, they won't change."

That's exactly the kind of criticism that gets me thinking about Mega Man.  I've often said, the last time Mega Man generated mainstream appeal was probably Zero 3 (MM9 being the closest thing to an exception to that statement).  And I do NOT say that because I don't think any of the more recent games were better than Zero 3; ZX still ranks among my favorites.  But it was back then that the quality of the games were consistent across the board.  Remember right before Mega Man X came out?  The formulas got stale, the small changes were collecting rough spots, and many people lost interest.  Then, WHAM!, new game, new style, more EVERYTHING, and every damn thing they attempted with it, they hit absolutely on the mark.  Zero 3 was the last game that felt like that; that felt that they'd accomplished everything they set out to do.  You played it, you finished it, and you thought about where they could go from there instead of what they should have done better.

More recent games have small quirks/flaw/oddities that gnaw away at them more than they used to (again, looking at ZX, it has a troubling map, clunky mission system, a localization that makes X6 look good, ditched New Game Plus which was a standard feature of the entire Zero series, and has absolutely no weapon restore points in the entire game).  These are things that we the fans can forgive because we recognize the core strong points underneath it all, but they damage the series appeal among the less familiar and/or more casual audience, and given enough time, it causes the fanbase to dwindle.  Capcom hit dead ends with ZX, Star Force, Classic, and X that way.

It all boils down to "stop half-assing it".  A quality and nostalgic 2D sidescroller doesn't just happen because you're working within the 2D genre; it takes a serious level of effort that Capcom has seemingly not been willing to sink in.  Every stumbling block they hit was taken as a reason to back off rather than a reason to try harder, and that's ultimately where the problem lies.

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Offline Flame

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Reply #23 on: June 21, 2012, 03:46:50 AM
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there was rarely if ever any real consensus what was wrong with Sonic or how to fix him.  But Sega never really stopped trying, either.
It's what bugs me the MOST about X7.

The potential was there, the game looked good, the underlying concept of X in 3D was there and worked more or less, it just needed fine tuning. They needed to take what worked in X7, and play with it.

Command Mission came out right after, and while it was a completely different gameplay style, it still seemed to improve on some of X7. Cutscenes were all cinematic for the first time since X4, using in game models, the 3D world felt immersive, the areas unique and well thought out, and nice to look at, and the actual gameplay was fun. And overall the game felt like the dev team really enjoyed making it. The amount of detail and thought that went into it tells me as much. Of course you can barely compare it to any other X game, but still.

Then X8 comes out and it's just a 2.5D X game with bland forgettable level design, terrible gameplay choices, (putting every single item into the shop therefore killing much of the stage replay value). Graphically, I still say X7 looks better than it- a lot of the music just felt too samey to me, and only some of the OST stands out IMO. And overall, X8 just doesnt feel like it has anywhere as much soul as the previous games. It just feels too alien compared to previous 2D entries. Even X7's 2D sections felt more traditional X series than X8.

Aaaaaand.... we never got another X game past X8.

It bugs me they never tried to fix the 3D formula for another try. It's what the franchise really needed.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline OBJECTION MAN

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Reply #24 on: June 21, 2012, 06:45:11 AM
Agreed on X7. X7's 3D gameplay engine was actually really good. What killed the game was: a really awful camera, trying to shoehorn 2D mode in, and a lack of polish. The game played really well in 3D mode. Wall kicking felt solid, aiming was intuitive, and attacks were calibrated nicely for 3D space.

The 2D mode was most of the problem. The 3D calibrated attacks (especially Zero's) were not very effective in 2D. When you dash wall jumped, you were forced to land lower than where you jumped (not necessarily a 2D mode only issue though, but much more apparent here). Auto aim in 2D was way overpowered.

Axl's damage ratios and lack of auto fire (if I recall correctly) was way out of whack too. X8 did him infinitely better.

Sigh. It's depressing to think what could have been, versus what we got. Such a large gap.


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