Author Topic: Zero the original X?  (Read 3590 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Soultrigger

  • Resistance Member
  • *
  • Posts: 233
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Male
  • Weapon Get!
    • View Profile
Zero the original X?
« on: April 26, 2012, 07:48:44 AM »
Okay, I want to set the record straight once and for all: was Zero designed to be the original successor to Classic Mega Man (i.e. to be the main character of the X series)? From what I gathered based on interviews, this is a big NO. However, some "fans" suggest otherwise, so I'd like to see what you guys think. (I'd also like to just redirect to this topic so I don't have to keep reexplaining).

I don't know what spawned this belief, but I'm guessing it's this quote from this interview:
Quote
Inafune also revealed that he wasn't responsible for the creation of Mega Man himself. "I'm often called the father of Mega Man, but actually, his design was already created when I joined Capcom," he explained. "My mentor [at Capcom], who was the designer of the original Mega Man, had a basic concept of what Mega Man was supposed to look like. So I only did half of the job in creating him. I didn't get to completely design a Mega Man [protagonist] from scratch until Zero (Mega Man X, SNES). Back when the SNES was coming out, I was asked to give Mega Man a redesign, so I created this character. But I realized that this design wouldn't be accepted as Mega Man, so I had another designer create the new Mega Man, and I worked on Zero to release him as the 'other main character' that would steal all the good scenes!"
So naturally, one would come to conclusion that the process was:
1. Team needs a new main character for this new series
2. Inafune designs Zero
3. Inafune realizes red/cool protagonist does not resemble Classic Mega Man (Note: Capcom did not "reject" Zero like many "fans" claimed to have happened)
4. Inafune has Kaji design new Mega Man (i.e. X)

However, based on Mega Man Official Complete Works (which I believe to make much more sense), this is actually how it went:
Quote
"Usually, I would be the one doing the main characters, and Kaji would take care of the sub characters. This time, however, we decided to change things up a bit. I asked Kaji to do Mega Man, and I made the sub character, Zero, my project. I'm sure I've said this in may different places in more than a few different ways, but I really wanted Zero to be a playable character. I wanted to offer a 'different Mega Man,' and possibly a more hardcore game."
Reading this quote, the reality of the process was drastically different:
1. Team needs a new main and side character for this new series
2. Inafune chooses to make the side character (so as to not be restricted to the "nice guy" image)
3. Inafune designs Zero, but thinks Zero could make a good hardcore alternative while designing him
4. Zero gets immediate okay in the form of "Red, huh?"

The annoying is that Zero fanboys constantly make this baseless claim in an attempt to either invalidate X's existence or complain about Capcom. While I don't really care about the latter, it still upsets me that they're just flat out wrong. It's even more annoying when I see this pop up on sites like wikis as if X should never have existed. It's bad enough as it is that Zero has stolen the spotlight pretty much the entire Mega Man robot universe post-X3.

Thoughts?


Bad Box Art Snake Man Joins the Battle!

Offline OBJECTION MAN

  • Neo Arcadian
  • *
  • Posts: 1846
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Zero the original X?
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2012, 03:21:23 PM »
Zero was originally designed to be the protagonist of the X series, yes. The design was however rejected for not resembling Megaman. The Megaman X design was created after. In fact I believe Inafune did not create X's design, it was someone else.

TWITCH   ➧ TWITTER   ➧ DISCORD   ➧ MY GAMES

Knockout Mondays
Experimental day: Fighting game engine project Live Gamedev (8PM - 10 PM EST)

WIP Wednesdays
Hamster Drop Gold Edition Live Gamedev (8PM - 10 PM EST)

Weekend Game Hangout
Marc, Amber, & Friends (Saturday Evening EST)

Offline Soultrigger

  • Resistance Member
  • *
  • Posts: 233
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Male
  • Weapon Get!
    • View Profile
Re: Zero the original X?
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2012, 06:14:53 PM »
Zero was originally designed to be the protagonist of the X series, yes. The design was however rejected for not resembling Megaman. The Megaman X design was created after. In fact I believe Inafune did not create X's design, it was someone else.
Using a passive sentence like "The design was rejected" leaves a very vital piece of information out: who rejected it? Obviously most people think that's Capcom, but there's no explicit line that says "Capcom rejected it". Instead, I would have to think Inafune rejected it himself, because he later said Zero had almost no criticism being the side character. Having little criticism means no one paid much attention to him, which means he was never meant to be the main character.

Not to sound mad or anything, but what I'm looking for here is a very technical piece of information, and you being extremely vague about it doesn't really offer much help...

Also, it's already a known fact that Kaji created X, and I mentioned that in the first proposal to what happened. It seems like you didn't even read my post if you're telling me something I already mentioned...

I guess I also forgot to ask this, but if Zero was indeed the original design for X like people suggest, I would also like some hard evidence that proves this.


Bad Box Art Snake Man Joins the Battle!

Offline Zan

  • Master's Unit
  • *
  • Posts: 2036
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Male
  • Unpleasable Unhelpful Utopian Totalitarian
    • View Profile
Re: Zero the original X?
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2012, 06:36:00 PM »
Inafune drew both Zero, and "Super Rockman". While he hoped Zero could be the lead, he also knew that people would most likely assume him to be a side character and therefore tried designing another Rockman before handing the task to Kaji.

There is interview where Inafune states he tested this assumption by showing two sketches to his superior, one of Kaji's X, and one of his Zero, without prior introduction . His superior immediately assumed X was the lead, and Zero the side character, just as he thought.

Offline OBJECTION MAN

  • Neo Arcadian
  • *
  • Posts: 1846
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Zero the original X?
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2012, 06:45:18 PM »
stuff

I skimmed the post, bite me.

Inafune said in this interview his supervisor was the one who accepted and rejected designs, and that's how Zero got rejected. That would probably be the 'creative director' role in the team. In the old days this often times could be also the producer, or a man who held many positions in the team. It wasn't specified beyond that.

TWITCH   ➧ TWITTER   ➧ DISCORD   ➧ MY GAMES

Knockout Mondays
Experimental day: Fighting game engine project Live Gamedev (8PM - 10 PM EST)

WIP Wednesdays
Hamster Drop Gold Edition Live Gamedev (8PM - 10 PM EST)

Weekend Game Hangout
Marc, Amber, & Friends (Saturday Evening EST)

Offline Soultrigger

  • Resistance Member
  • *
  • Posts: 233
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Male
  • Weapon Get!
    • View Profile
Re: Zero the original X?
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2012, 07:07:36 PM »
Inafune drew both Zero, and "Super Rockman". While he hoped Zero could be the lead, he also knew that people would most likely assume him to be a side character and therefore tried designing another Rockman before handing the task to Kaji.

There is interview where Inafune states he tested this assumption by showing two sketches to his superior, one of Kaji's X, and one of his Zero, without prior introduction . His superior immediately assumed X was the lead, and Zero the side character, just as he thought.

:o This is actually the first I've heard about a "Super Rockman". Would it be too much to ask if the concept art for it exists online or at least in OCW? I don't have OCW with me, but I'd look it up later once I'd get the chance.

And the part about showing X and Zero simultaneously and getting an immediate assumption based on their designs also makes a lot of sense...though this proves my point that Zero wasn't "rejected" like many people suggest: he was just never really considered as the main character except by Inafune himself (who wasn't caught up with the assumption of a blue, nice-guy successor). What would be more accurate is to say that Zero could have been the main character, X, but he was not supposed to be. Inafune wanted Zero to be the main character, but he never asked him to be. Basically, people just have to be much more careful with their words, as the wrong choice of words could give the wrong implications (such as X never having supposed to exist).

I skimmed the post, bite me.
As an X fan, this technicality is of great importance to me.  :D


Bad Box Art Snake Man Joins the Battle!

Offline Hypershell

  • needs DRAGONITE POWER!
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 5253
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Steel in Zee Head
    • View Profile
    • Get equipped with Hyper's DA
Re: Zero the original X?
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2012, 11:36:38 PM »
There is interview where Inafune states he tested this assumption by showing two sketches to his superior, one of Kaji's X, and one of his Zero, without prior introduction . His superior immediately assumed X was the lead, and Zero the side character, just as he thought.


Word of God, Inafune:

"I wanted to make the character's personality a little more hardcore too, and I knew that if I was working from the design of the traditional Mega Man, I'd be stuck in that whole 'nice guy' image.  The whole time I was designing Zero, I was seeing him as the 'new Mega Man.'  But I didn't bring that up when I went to submit our designs to my boss.  I brought out the X that Kaji designed and said, 'Here's the new Mega Man!'  My boss had a very positive reaction to X, and when I brought out the design for Zero, I simply said, '... and this is the sub character.'  I figured that would ensure a less critical analysis of Zero and, as a result, got an immediate OK in the form of, 'Red, huh?  Hmm... yeah, that's nice.' (laughs)"

MMXOCW, page 8.

Zero was the kind of Mega Man that Inafune, personally, wanted to make (which is probably he was so eager to ditch the X series in favor of the Zero series), however it was Inafune, and nobody else, who made the decision not to present him as such.  Inafune was safeguarding his design, believing that a sub-character allowed him more freedom than Rock's successor would.

I skimmed the post, bite me.
Touchy, touchy.  Somebody found a hole in their Evidence bag today?

"Your pants are on fire."

Offline Flame

  • The obsessive
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 15976
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Zero the original X?
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2012, 02:50:00 AM »
I thought this stuff was old news by now.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Zan

  • Master's Unit
  • *
  • Posts: 2036
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Male
  • Unpleasable Unhelpful Utopian Totalitarian
    • View Profile
Re: Zero the original X?
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2012, 01:12:32 PM »
Quote

Pardon my memory and lack of ownership of the book. Got some of the specifics messed up as a result.

Still, though, "The Mega Man" doesn't equate to lead character. If Zero had been the lead, the "Mega Man" would have been the side character. Zero is not a Mega Man, despite the series title. It's just that his boss gave such a positive reaction to X, the Mega Man, afterward he could not promote Zero as anything more than a side character.

If Inafune did have his way, (his boss being less excited about the premise of a Mega Man in the lead) we'd more than likely see Zero and X's roles reversed; X taking on the role of the compassionate Hunter guiding the more ruthless Zero to do the right thing.

Offline Flame

  • The obsessive
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 15976
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Zero the original X?
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2012, 06:14:55 PM »
But the whole point was that the "character" or "design" that became Zero, was going to be Super Rockman. If Inafune had not decided that he would not be accepted as a "Megaman" due to the radically different design, there might not have been a side character, or the side character(s?) might not have been anything like what we have today. He wanted Super Rockman to have a more hardcore feel, (giving one of the early designs a popped collar to indicate it) but we dont know if he would have ended up like the Zero we got. maybe more like the X1-3 Zero, maybe, where he was more the "cool" character as opposed to the cold, jaded, "tormented soul" he is made into after X4.

As side characters we might have simply gotten other hunters. Maybe we wouldnt even have gotten a Wily built X series character. (though by their admission, the connection with Sigma and Wily was planned from the start, and concept art proves it)

In the end, who can say how things could have been, but the fact is, "Zero" was going to be the new Mega Man.

On that note, i wonder where Inafune came up with the name Zero from?
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Mirby

  • RPM's Krillin
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 14047
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Female
  • KINGDOM HEARTS IS WAAAAAAA
    • View Profile
    • Mirby Studios
Re: Zero the original X?
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2012, 10:00:39 PM »
On that note, i wonder where Inafune came up with the name Zero from?

I'm guessing that since X's name referenced the variable and how it can be anything, Zero was meant to be a counterpoint to that or something with his name.
OH [parasitic bomb] IM USING LINK AND I ACCIDENTALLY FINAL SMASHED A CUCCO OH GOD HELP
Just enjoy yourself, don't complain about everything

Offline Hypershell

  • needs DRAGONITE POWER!
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 5253
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Steel in Zee Head
    • View Profile
    • Get equipped with Hyper's DA
Re: Zero the original X?
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2012, 05:01:36 AM »
Still, though, "The Mega Man" doesn't equate to lead character.
Re-read Inafune's quote above.  Take notice of the phrase "new Mega Man"  How Inafune envisioned Zero =/= how Inafune presented Zero.  It's that simple.

And seriously, get equipped with the book. >U<

"Your pants are on fire."

Offline Flame

  • The obsessive
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 15976
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Zero the original X?
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2012, 08:21:29 AM »
Im surprised you dont at least have the info from it somewhere, Zan.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Zan

  • Master's Unit
  • *
  • Posts: 2036
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Male
  • Unpleasable Unhelpful Utopian Totalitarian
    • View Profile
Re: Zero the original X?
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2012, 09:54:55 AM »
Quote
But the whole point was that the "character" or "design" that became Zero, was going to be Super Rockman. If Inafune had not decided that he would not be accepted as a "Megaman" due to the radically different design, there might not have been a side character, or the side character(s?) might not have been anything like what we have today.
Quote
Re-read Inafune's quote above.  Take notice of the phrase "new Mega Man"  How Inafune envisioned Zero =/= how Inafune presented Zero.  It's that simple.

The 'Super Rockman' character being in simultaneous development with Zero, Inafune discarded the idea of Zero being the Rockman fairly quickly. That is is not to say he did not remain hopeful of Zero becoming the lead. At the point X and Zero's finished designs were shown to his boss, he somewhat admits that the positive response for X forced his hand, introducing Zero as the side character instead. If the response for X had been neutral, don't you think he would have pitched Zero differently?

Offline Hypershell

  • needs DRAGONITE POWER!
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 5253
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Steel in Zee Head
    • View Profile
    • Get equipped with Hyper's DA
Re: Zero the original X?
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2012, 04:36:52 PM »
Actually, no, I don't.  Because in the above quote Inafune admits to working under a presupposition: While he envisioned Zero as the "new Mega Man", he did NOT want Zero to be the "traditional Mega Man".  Not only as a matter of design but also as a matter of the character's personality.

As I see it, Inafune wanted to do a darker, grimmer game, such as Mega Man Zero, back in 1993, but the transition directly from Classic into that would have been a major upset to anyone familiar with the series, and he knew it.  It was too soon.  The character's personality is the character's personality, regardless of what they look like, and that is not the personality that Inafune wanted for Zero.  The X series is effectively the bridge that allowed Inafune to make the kind of game he actually wanted to in 2002 (which is probably why he asked for it to end without bothering to involve himself in the ending).

That is exactly why Inafune asked Kaji to design the new Mega Man.  And Kaji knew up front that was who he was designing.  Had his design been rejected, Inafune probably would have tried something else entirely.  Pitching Zero as the lead would mean pitching Zero for the "nice guy image", which is exactly what Inafune didn't want.

"Your pants are on fire."

Offline Soultrigger

  • Resistance Member
  • *
  • Posts: 233
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Male
  • Weapon Get!
    • View Profile
Re: Zero the original X?
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2012, 01:34:51 AM »
The X series is effectively the bridge that allowed Inafune to make the kind of game he actually wanted to in 2002 (which is probably why he asked for it to end without bothering to involve himself in the ending).
It saddens me that Inafune doesn't really care much about the X series, though I guess that's a result of him becoming a producer and losing control of how it went. It's probably a brand that he doesn't want to associate himself much with beyond the ones he directly influenced. Which is a shame since the X series is what I as well as many other people grew up with and got us into Mega Man in the first place.

In the end, who can say how things could have been, but the fact is, "Zero" was going to be the new Mega Man.
While that eventually happened, like what Hypershell said: even Inafune knew it was too soon, and transitioning directly from the Classic series was probably too much of an upset. As a result, while Super Rockman/Rockman X was being conceived, this was not the case. You can say Zero went from:
-"was going to be the new MM" during his conception/design process to
-"shouldn't be the new MM" while reflecting on the traditions of Classic and then finally
-"not going to be" once Inafune made Kaji design X and the supervisor accepted the latter.

The funny thing is that all these notions of "Zero being the new Rockman" were kept to Inafune himself. To anyone else inside the dev team, Zero wasn't even considered as a possible successor because of how Inafune presented him (which is a result of how Zero's design process went).
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 08:43:23 AM by Soultrigger »


Bad Box Art Snake Man Joins the Battle!

Offline Treleus

  • B-Class Hunter
  • *
  • Posts: 420
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Zero the original X?
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2012, 09:06:16 AM »
I don't think it can really be said that Inafune didn't care about the X series. I mean, yeah, maybe he didn't give two shits about X5, but well after he's finished with the Zero series, he wants to retcon and redo the X series starting with Maverick Hunter X, this time replacing some of Zero's roles (being the reason for Sigma's rebellion, getting his eye marks from him) with X. Maybe he feels bad about not developing X that well?

Offline Hypershell

  • needs DRAGONITE POWER!
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 5253
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Steel in Zee Head
    • View Profile
    • Get equipped with Hyper's DA
Re: Zero the original X?
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2012, 01:26:34 AM »
He also gave Yoshikawa free reign over X8 and outright refused to involve himself in Command Mission.

I think that Inafune wasn't willing to involve himself in X-series production (barring Axl's silhouette) as long as the Zero series was still on the table.  But by MHX, the Zero series had been concluded.  Also there is the fact that Inafune intended MHX as an internal excercise in game development; and honestly, if you need to remind someone about well received game design, you'd be hard pressed to find a stronger example in Capcom's library than X1. 

"Your pants are on fire."

Offline Flame

  • The obsessive
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 15976
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Zero the original X?
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2012, 04:10:15 AM »
I'd say Inafune did pretty well as far as Axl's design IMO.

And Yoshikawa's slimming it down only made it better.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Hypershell

  • needs DRAGONITE POWER!
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 5253
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Steel in Zee Head
    • View Profile
    • Get equipped with Hyper's DA
Re: Zero the original X?
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2012, 11:14:11 PM »
Tatsunoko Vs. Capcom disagrees.  According to it, the only thing Yoshikawa improved about the series was Alia's breasts.

"Your pants are on fire."

Offline Flame

  • The obsessive
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 15976
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Zero the original X?
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2012, 08:57:51 AM »
And hair.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Hypershell

  • needs DRAGONITE POWER!
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 5253
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Steel in Zee Head
    • View Profile
    • Get equipped with Hyper's DA
Re: Zero the original X?
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2012, 11:56:37 PM »
X6 beat him to the punch on letting her hair down.  Unless you mean the over-the-shoulder look...

"Your pants are on fire."

Offline Flame

  • The obsessive
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 15976
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Zero the original X?
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2012, 01:02:00 AM »
I indeed meant the over the shoulder look.

Though I preferred the X6 variation of her hair. The way her hair is drawn in X8 makes it look like one solid mass draped over both shoulders, which bothers me immensely.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Gaia

  • RPM's only Card Collector.
  • Legendary Hero
  • *
  • Posts: 8224
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Male
  • Yep.
    • View Profile
    • YT Profile Page
Re: Zero the original X?
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2012, 01:16:25 AM »
Tatsunoko Vs. Capcom disagrees.  According to it, the only thing Yoshikawa improved about the series was Alia's breasts.

You mean the origional "bowls for boobs" (when I first saw the origional X5 design they looked like soup bowls to me), or the more traditional robo boobs in the X8 version?

Capcom has some sense of humor, I'll say.
Workshop/DA/YT/Photobucket なにかんがえてるの!?
So its about ass now huh? EVEN THE ASS HAS 'EXCEEDED'!

One mention of LEGENDS and everyone goes batshit.  :\

Yep, every time when someone mentions that game people get energized for an apparent reason whatsoever. It's like this everywhere else, trust me.

It got really messy to find my sprite and comic topic, so it's in my sig.