Author Topic: No Charge Shot.....Why?  (Read 10287 times)

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Offline Waifu

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No Charge Shot.....Why?
« on: August 12, 2011, 06:53:16 PM »
I am currently playing the Mega Man 9 and 10 respectively but Inti removed the Charge Shot adn teh slide despite it being a series staple since Mega Man 3. Why did they do this?

Offline VixyNyan

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Re: No Charge Shot.....Why?
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2011, 06:59:30 PM »
By staple, if you mean the ability to charge a weapon, it started in Mega Man 2 with the Atomic Fire.
The Mega Buster didn't get a charge up ability until Mega Man 4. And the slide showed up first in Mega Man 3.

Inti Creates made those two newer games to fit in with the controls and mechanics of Mega Man 2, since that is to them (and Inafking) their favorite Mega Man game, and to them, it was the most loved game in the series as well. Proto Man did get the slide and charge abilities tho, but had to take twice the damage against enemies (plot related).
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Offline Hypershell

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Re: No Charge Shot.....Why?
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2011, 10:52:30 PM »
ProtoMan takes double knockback as well, making it easier for him to get shot off a cliff.

I personally have gotten very sick of Classic re-imaginings that don't let you slide.  Counting Universe, which I got to play at Comic-Con, it's been going on for four games straight now.  Enough.

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Offline slayer

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Re: No Charge Shot.....Why?
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2011, 11:12:43 PM »
what?  you tell me they ruined 9 & 10?
now inticreates really [acid burst] me off.... O:< O:< O:< O:< O:< O:< O:< O:< O:<

Offline The Great Gonzo

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Re: No Charge Shot.....Why?
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2011, 11:15:31 PM »
I would HOPE that part of the reasoning behind removing Mega of his slide is to help further differentiate him from Proto, Bass, and any other playable characters. Granted, I'd rather they give him the slide back, too. Or if not, at least let him duck.

(Not that Proto doesn't play differently than Mega-slidey already)

Offline Flame

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Re: No Charge Shot.....Why?
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2011, 06:07:36 AM »
I dont see why I would care if they played the same at all. The novelty is in the character you are playing as, not the way they play. That said, if Rock kept his [parasitic bomb], it would be easy to simply make protoman play like in powered up. Shooting charged shots all over the place. And make him dash like he should. maybe make his shield work like it does in 7 too. (which I always figured made more sense) it sort of bothers me a slight bit that they used 4's mechanics for Protoman's charge shot. Not to mention the 4 charge shot itself.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Gotham Ranger

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Re: No Charge Shot.....Why?
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2011, 07:52:07 AM »
9 was a major let down, in my opinion. Let's get that out there. Opinion. Got it? Okay.

That said, it completely infuriated me. It ignores the evolution of Mega Man to pander to a vocal minority. If I wanna play Mega Man 2, I'll play Mega Man 2, not a bad knock off. Stage design was also shoddy and it felt more often than not that the challenge came not from actual difficulty, but how many things they could throw at you at once. And spikes. Spikes [tornado fang]ing everywhere, to a ridiculous degree.

I've enjoyed nearly every Mega Man game I've played and I've never played them in order. My first was X4. My first classic was Rockman & Forte. But 9 was just.. Bad.

Offline Flame

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Re: No Charge Shot.....Why?
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2011, 07:56:54 AM »
I definitely prefer 10 over 9. It feels just more polished and despite still pandering to 2, it is more of it's own thing, and feels fresher for it.

Still has no charge or slide though.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Protoman Blues

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Re: No Charge Shot.....Why?
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2011, 08:40:40 AM »
Like I always say, Rock just decided to say "[tornado fang] it! I'm already like 14-0 vs. Wily. THIS time I'll give him a sporting chance!"

Offline zuschzero

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Re: No Charge Shot.....Why?
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2011, 12:15:14 PM »
MM4 had the best version of the charge shot.

Protoman have that version, but he still can't charge it while sliding, just like in MM5.

Why Capcom think this is good is beyond me. It's the same thing if in Megaman X, you couldn't charge while X is dashing. Just imagine. This is how I feel about MM5 and Protoman's charge mechanic.

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Re: No Charge Shot.....Why?
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2011, 02:39:31 PM »
9 was a major let down, in my opinion. Let's get that out there. Opinion. Got it? Okay.

That said, it completely infuriated me. It ignores the evolution of Mega Man to pander to a vocal minority. If I wanna play Mega Man 2, I'll play Mega Man 2, not a bad knock off. Stage design was also shoddy and it felt more often than not that the challenge came not from actual difficulty, but how many things they could throw at you at once. And spikes. Spikes [tornado fang]ing everywhere, to a ridiculous degree.
Overall agreed.  9 spends way too much time (and too many jingles) pretending it's 2, has entirely too many blindsided deaths (those helicopter claws do not belong anywhere near spikes), and those stupid potted plant missiles that laugh at your inability to gain any additional speed over your basic walk.  Plus the game is over-dependent on Auto's shop, as there are virtually no pickup items.

I have to say, after all of that, 10 surprised me.  I was expecting more of the same, but they clearly took the level design (and the sound) up a notch.  And even though Rock still can't slide (boo), the MMK weapons give him something unique to the others.  10 isn't perfect, but it's an infinitely better game than 9.

I dont see why I would care if they played the same at all. The novelty is in the character you are playing as, not the way they play.
This, this, this, and this.  Ruling out the cancellation of Legends 3 for a moment, quite possibly the next most infuriating thing that I can hear from a game developer is "we know players wanted such-and-such a character, but we didn't include them because we couldn't make them different enough".  To someone who killed Mario off when he couldn't find a second person to play SMB3/SMW, that is the entirely wrong thing to say.

I'm also inclined to agree with giving ProtoMan the whole PU charged shot (but no boss-flinching, that's overkill)/MM7 shield approach.  It would make him strong enough to justify his lack of defense.  Another shield idea might be to not have it activate automatically at all.  He could guard when you press down on the D-Pad.  Could even give him a shield-dash instead of a slide, like in Power Fighters.

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Offline Blackhook

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Re: No Charge Shot.....Why?
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2011, 03:26:10 PM »
If they weren´t lazy they would give Bass a more unique sprite too...Atlest he kept his abilities sans double jump.


Offline Flame

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Re: No Charge Shot.....Why?
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2011, 04:58:09 PM »
MM4 had the best version of the charge shot.

Are you kidding me..?

Quote
If they weren´t lazy they would give Bass a more unique sprite too...Atlest he kept his abilities sans double jump.
yeah. At least they did that right.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Zan

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Re: No Charge Shot.....Why?
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2011, 05:37:38 PM »
Just because it's not your cup of tea, doesn't mean the game is bad. The lack of charge and slide in itself was a novel idea to recapture the retro gameplay that made Rockman famous. For all the complaints about cheap difficulty, we were given a special weapon arsenal of unprecedented usefulness, and an actual incentive to go about and use them. The next game simply took the same premise and re-balanced it to further suit their fancy.

Offline zuschzero

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Re: No Charge Shot.....Why?
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2011, 10:23:57 PM »
Are you kidding me..?

No, this is the honest truth. It's not too big and having the cool blue & acid green flashing instead of the boring blue + white.

Offline Nekomata

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Re: No Charge Shot.....Why?
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2011, 09:54:42 AM »
Are you kidding me..?
Can you completely [tornado fang] up a bosses attack pattern with the charge shot in 5 and 6? no? yeah I thought so.

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Re: No Charge Shot.....Why?
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2011, 11:55:49 AM »
Are you kidding me..?

I must ask what you found flawed about MM4's Charge Shot, its fine.

At least one thing most of us can be happy about is that we haven't had another game with MM5's awful Rush Coil.

Offline Hypershell

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Re: No Charge Shot.....Why?
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2011, 04:32:54 PM »
Just because it's not your cup of tea, doesn't mean the game is bad. The lack of charge and slide in itself was a novel idea to recapture the retro gameplay that made Rockman famous. For all the complaints about cheap difficulty, we were given a special weapon arsenal of unprecedented usefulness, and an actual incentive to go about and use them. The next game simply took the same premise and re-balanced it to further suit their fancy.
I don't think anyone in their right mind objected to "recapturing the retro", it's just that MM9 laid it on way too thick.  There is an extreme difference between going back to form and outright ignoring the contributions of later titles.

Making such heavy attempts while at the same time failing to achieve the gameplay balance of the games they're tributing only serves to make the differences stand out like a sore thumb.  There's a difference between a retro can of paint and retro game balance.  The earlier says that you're probably intending the latter, and 9, while a solid game in its own right, failed in that regard.  When people say that 9 has "cheap difficulty", they're not saying that the game is itself hard.  Quite the opposite, it is easily broken with the combination of Jewel Satellite and a Tellybomb spawn point.  What they're saying is that, when they do die, too often it is some cheap stunt from off-screen with no warning.

Overcoming the challenges of a game such as MegaMan comes from a balance of experience and reaction time.  9's biggest problem is that too often it almost entirely forsakes the latter.  Beating it is a simple matter of knowing what it's going to throw at you.  To hard for the first time, too easy for replays, all depends on how you look at it.  It's not that the game's challenge is too hard, or not hard enough.  It's that the game's challenge is shallow and unsatisfying.



Oh, and I must object to the phrase "special weapon arsenal of unprecedented usefulness".  That is an extremely lofty claim for a series that includes Metal Blade and Storm Tornado.  I will grant that 9 probably has the best shield in the series, but I don't think that going for shopping sprees with Auto as opposed to actually finding crap that you need is the best incentive.

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Offline Flame

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Re: No Charge Shot.....Why?
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2011, 05:34:32 PM »
Granted, I havent played 4 in a long time, so I didnt quite remember how powerful it was. What I didnt like was the loss of the shot when you got hit.
...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.

Offline Zan

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Re: No Charge Shot.....Why?
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2011, 05:36:46 PM »
Quote
Overcoming the challenges of a game such as MegaMan comes from a balance of experience and reaction time.  9's biggest problem is that too often it almost entirely forsakes the latter.  Beating it is a simple matter of knowing what it's going to throw at you.  To hard for the first time, too easy for replays, all depends on how you look at it.  It's not that the game's challenge is too hard, or not hard enough.  It's that the game's challenge is shallow and unsatisfying.
Quote
Oh, and I must object to the phrase "special weapon arsenal of unprecedented usefulness".  That is an extremely lofty claim for a series that includes Metal Blade and Storm Tornado.  I will grant that 9 probably has the best shield in the series, but I don't think that going for shopping sprees with Auto as opposed to actually finding crap that you need is the best incentive.

I don't disagree that 9's balance is off, and that 10 fixed it. I just think the degree with which it is off is sorely exaggerated. Not to mention, it has nothing to do with slide and charge being excluded. There exclusion actually lends merit to an aspect of 9's broken difficulty that I actually did like, that being the special weapons.

Fact of the matter is that previous games in the series often had only a sole weapon stand out, and had an otherwise useless arsenal overshadowed by the buster. Rockman9 is different in that literally every single weapon is a great weapon to use in stages, further emphasized by the low mobility and low offensive of MM2 gameplay.

Again, Rockman 10 redid the balance and fixed every problem Rockman 9 had.  If they continue on that course, I more than welcome more games without the slide and charge available as a default.

They do need to rethink their upgrade system, though. There's no excuse for not allowing their unlocking down the road.

Offline Hypershell

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Re: No Charge Shot.....Why?
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2011, 08:53:51 PM »
Not to mention, it has nothing to do with slide and charge being excluded.
Maybe not "difficulty" in the sense of getting you killed, but the absence of the slide coupled with the type of enemies introduced definitely increases the frustration level.  Those potted plant missiles never cease to annoy me, a seeker-enemy should not be moving that fast in a game that has no slide.

The upshot of Powered Up being so claustrophobic is that you don't really feel the need to move quickly the way you do in 9.

Quote
Fact of the matter is that previous games in the series often had only a sole weapon stand out, and had an otherwise useless arsenal overshadowed by the buster. Rockman9 is different in that literally every single weapon is a great weapon to use in stages, further emphasized by the low mobility and low offensive of MM2 gameplay.
Very few of the weapons in 2 or X1 would fall into the category of being overshadowed by the buster.  Maybe Rolling Shield if you disregard the charge.

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Offline Zan

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Re: No Charge Shot.....Why?
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2011, 09:24:00 PM »
Quote
Very few of the weapons in 2 or X1 would fall into the category of being overshadowed by the buster.

It's the charge that overshadows the special weapons, especially in the later NES title. It's absence allowed greater focus on the special weapons once again.

Offline Karasai♪

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Re: No Charge Shot.....Why?
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2011, 11:11:10 PM »
There's something wrong with me, I can beat Mega Man 2 easily, but I cant even beat one stage on Mega Man 9

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Re: No Charge Shot.....Why?
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2011, 11:49:27 PM »
Just keep trying against Splash Woman, the game should get easier after that.

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Re: No Charge Shot.....Why?
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2011, 12:30:55 AM »
Granted, I havent played 4 in a long time, so I didnt quite remember how powerful it was. What I didnt like was the loss of the shot when you got hit.

That didn't happen in 4. I think that happened in 5 and 6 though.